REPETE: Justin Hamilton and The French Connection

Hey there, Pete here, just a quick little message before we get into today's episode, which is a replay or a repeat, as we like to call them here at Yesnik,

I'm having an old fan Fordnight.

But haven't any right now?

You ain't seen nothing year.

I have a dirty secret, you ain't seen nothing yet. Vance This isn't my first movie podcast, no way back, almost a decade ago, I did a little podcast called HELLI You and Hammo Dig Flicks with my great mate Justin Hamilton. We started that podcast because well, I enjoyed speaking to no one about movies more than I did with my mate Hammo. I met Hamo a couple of decades ago when he was putting the La comedy scene on his back with another great mate of mine, Limo.

Hello, my name is Justin Hamilton.

And as of today, the twenty eighth of July twenty twenty one, my three favorite films are Interstellar.

I sp We Forgotten who we are.

Now, Miller's Crossing Now if you can't trust the Fixed, why can you Drift? And Lost Highway.

But as of just recently, I had never seen the movie The French Connection.

It's nineteen seventy one New York City and a decade of paranoia is about to begin, and what better way to kick it off than with Gene Hackman's complicated, booze fueled cop Jimmy Popeye, Doyle and Roy Scheider's bruised and beaten cloudy Rousseau zigzagging their way through urban New York in trench coats, peering through shop windows on the tail of Frog one and Frog two. Yeah, we might talk

Why do you keep asking me that?

Why you got nothing to do with the film.

Like every time it's been years. It's the first thing you've ever asked me. I can't keep you knowing it. I can't keep you knowing it.

Stop picking your feet, not just in Poor Keepsi, in Adelaide, in Sydney, in Melbourne, that stopped doing it. It's gross.

It's a bad habits. It's a nervous tick.

We'll get to that line maybe when we talk more about the film later on, but it's certainly one that caused me a bit of confusion. But you nominated a few films off the list that I give as a guide, and it's just a guide for my guests to kind of pick a thought starters. There were quite a few films, about half a dozen films you came back with. We've done quite a bit of the eighties recently, so I

So that's really funny because so a couple of things. One is I thought I'd never seen it. Well, for a while, I thought I had seen it because the car chase, specifically that scene of Gene Hackman's Popeye, who nearly takes out a young woman with her pram, and that scene is so kind of indelible. It was like, oh, yeah, I must have seen this movie heaps of times, and

And that was one of the movies that I bought.

I reckon a good ten to twelve years ago that when you said let's do that one, I was like, great, because you know what I can finally do.

Unwrap it like it was.

It was still stuck all up in the collection.

So I was like, this is great. So I peeled it open.

Then I watched it, and then it was weird because I felt like I was getting flashes of it, like hang on, maybe I have seen this. And then I spoke to my mum and she reckons, I have seen it, but probably exactly the same way you viewed it, probably quite young, I reckon. It might have been one of those things where mum was up watching a film I didn't want to go to bed.

She said, do you want to watch this?

And I probably checked out at some point because in the ways it is, it's a real throwback film. There's not a lot of dialogue. It is kind of the boring aspects of police work, which is a lot of just standing around in the cold, watching other people eat really good food. And also Gene Hackman's character is compelling but quite shocking, and I think he was probably shocking to me as a teenager and in the current era, who like, there's a lot to unpack there with Popeye, right.

There really is, there really is, And you're right, it does take a while, it takes its time. You're absolutely right. It dives into the boring aspects of policing, like you say, and I think as a teenager watching it, and to be honest, no doubt many adults. I'll be interested to see what when our listeners think of the French connection

Yeah, it's fascinating.

It also has a definitive pace, which is, as you said, very seventies, but it also has an esthetic that feels very modern. And you know, like, so I was reading about how Freed. Can you know the way it's shot. It's shot like a documentary. It doesn't go looking for the characters. Characters kind of walk into the shot, and that hadn't.

Really been done before.

I think there was a French movie that he'd seen that he was inspired by, and because he had a documentary background, he applied it to this film.

But you know, they're very different films. But funnily enough, I was getting a tenant vibe from it.

The look of it and the way it was shot and the lack of dialogue and the seventies esthetic. Is it's quite popular amongst a lot of filmmakers now and then they've just sped it up with things.

Kind of happening.

But at the same time, one of the most riveting scenes, and it's a funny thing to say, but one of the most riveting scenes is Geene hack been trying to tail you know, the bad guy and then walking on and off a train.

Yes, yes, how is this riveting?

But it is absolutely And I love that scene and I have led you way further down this path that I plan to go at this stage of the film. But this is what Hammo and me do. We basically we get chatting Hamos in Sydney. I'm in Melbourne. We used to hang out a lot, like physically, you know, catch up. We are going to do that. We have a podcast. I mentioned that in the intro and that was basically was we made that because based on the

And why we waste it.

But it's always hard the court. It takes me about fifteen minutes to get the work each day and it's it's not quite well, it's nowhere near enough time for me to call you in that time. So we actually hadn't spoken to each other for a little while, because even though despite the various lockdowns you know, this year, we hadn't spoked with each other for a little while. So there's a lot to a lot to talk about. And I want to talk about your three favorite films.

Yeah, It's It's one of those things. It's funny because I was a fan from I remember seeing Memento at the cinema and it was like one of those what just happened kind of movies, you know what you walk out and then it's like, well, I'm going to keep an eye on what this guy next. And then of course the next film he makes is Insomnia and I Love al Pacino and it's Robin Williams in a you know, before he started doing a few more darker roles. It was like, holy shit, what is this with Robin Williams?

I was.

You know, that to me was pure Nolan hero went straight into my eyes. And if someone said to me I didn't like it for these reasons, I go, oh, yeah, fair enough. But guess what, I loved it every second of it.

My brother said to me the other day, I just saw the worst film I've ever seen. I said, what you guys are ten or something. I said, listen, it's not the worst one you've ever seen, but it's not for everyone.

It's not for everyone, but it's you know, you need pages.

I saw that with Luke McGregor in the cinema. Is actually the first movie I saw in the cinema when we came out of one of the lockdowns and it was kind of joyous is to be in the cinema, and I really enjoy I'll need to watch it again to have like even really even a conversation with you about it, despite the fact I'm going to ask you more quich it is probably more about any to sell it, but I need to see it again. But the one

And it's look, essentially, it makes as much sense as a Bond film, and that's what it is. It's just his his version of a Bond film, which isn't cluttered with any sense of history. It can just be its standalone thing. It's almost like yours. It's an origin movie.

It could be the third of a five part series.

It has the potential for more stories, but in a weird way, I don't want them. I like that this is one of many that and this is the only one he's going to produce. Like what ruined Star Wars. I don't need fucking prequels. I don't need sequels. Just give me the original trilogy, you know, So that's all he's going to give me.

With talent, That's what I love about Inception.

Could have heapsmall movies about Inception, but just one is really tasty, and I think it does kind of make sense if you you know. Of course, it's overwhelming when you first see it because it's a spectacle, but the more you watch it there is it does make sense. And I like the ambiguity about it, which is a word that we'll get back to later on, especially with

I won't say anything more.

Just look it up or listen to my podcast Big Squid, where I fucking break that shit down. But it's right, But Interstellar is it is everything I like in a recipe, cook perfectly and served up, and I was just wrapped with it.

I love sci fi. I love big ideas.

I love you know, the idea of you know, I also like that it's kind of a little bit scary and that it's like.

A documentary from the future.

And if you think I'm overreacting, check out the dust storms that are happening through China at the moment. And don't tell me that you want to suddenly become a corn farmer so you have a job in the future.

You know. It's yeah, I mean the rise of, the rise of you know, the way that with global warming, with politics, with they said, dust storms, with back and mice plagues. You know, there's a feeling, there's a feeling that we're closer to the end then we are to start.

Well, that's it, and that you can kind of look at Nolan's last three films, Interstellar, Dunkirk, and Tenant, and they are about survival and they are about trying to overcome utter annihilation. And even though you know, Dunkirk's quite clearly a film about war and something that really happened, it's that there aren't any victories in other than getting back to safety and sort of celebrating that that is

And what I love about Noel and what I admire about Tenant is you can still go like, the way I watch films is I don't necessary I'm not necessarily trying to solve every crime or kind of let generally I'm the first watch I'm letting it wash over me.

Yeah, well, you know, the thing to kind of remember with him is that he's a fan of movies, and he watches all the Marvel movies, and he loves the Fast and the Furious franchise, and you know, loves the James Bond franchise. And you know, even when he loves those franchises, the Bond film he loves the most is the George Lazenbury one, and the Fast and the Furious movie he loves is the one that people don't like much.

Which is Tokyo Drift.

You know, he's a and the thing is is that he loves the work of Kubrick, but the movie that changed his life was Star Wars, and so when you take all of that into account, it's funny. Sometimes you hear people getting angry like he's trying to bamboozle you, and it's no, no, no, he's not trying to bamboozle you. He's trying to give you the same sentenceation he felt when he saw Luke sky Walker stare at two sons.

Absolutely, the Coen Brothers. I'm not surprised to see the Coen Brothers on you lease. I thought either there will be three Nolan films, and I thought possibly couple. The Coen Brothers is one. But Miller's Crossing is a fine pixer.

Oh my god, it's such a good film.

Once again, the ambiguity of Gabriel Byrne in that where it's funny he's kind of really loyal, but he's also loyal to himself, and he does he makes disloyal decisions and he's just he's in such a moral gray area. But at the end, you know he's he's done all the right things and in his inability to change means that he kind of comes out.

Alone out of it. You know. It's the music's beautiful.

I remember seeing it at the cinema and Carter Burwell's music and the and the hat, you know, floating across the forest, and it was just such a such a stunning film, and a lot of the like. It was hard to pick a Coen Brothers film actually I could have plumped for A Serious Man, you know, which is one of those underrated Coen Brothers films where if you really pay attention, it is really funny and there's a

Carter Burwell is just a genius. He like, he's one of the few, and maybe I should listen to more scores when I'm in my car, but he's his scores or one of the the you know, the who he's a composed that I was just one of the few composed older just put on in the car and listen to. I mean, he's burn after reading. It's funny you think

I know that it's got one of the greatest moments in movie history where you're sitting there going I can't wait for Brad Pitt and George Clooney to finally meet up.

Did you seriously do this to us? Which is great?

I think, I think burn after reading. I think George Clooney at his comedic best. I think sometimes he overdoes it sometimes, and I think he's overdone it in some other Coen Brothers films. But and it's Brad Pitt at his funniest as well. Everyone's so good in that. I love it. Miller's Crossing I just think of that. I think of the hat when when I when I think of Miller's Crossing, I just think of that's that that that that hat, you know in the wind be lieve

So many great set pieces, you know, the when they tried to take out the Big Boss, Albert.

Finny and he he pulls.

Out the machine gun to Danny Boy like that is a maze. The I don't think I'd ever seen John Taturo in a film before, so the you know, the look into your heart, Tommy, look into your heart, you know, all of that's so fantastic. And then his heel turn is just Pitch Perfect. You know, the great scene where you know the Dane is, you know, looks like he's going to choke Tom Reagan to death, all the all the weird camera angles and the and the and the heat. You can feel the heat in that scene. You know,

You mentioned. Ambiguity and the Coen Brothers a good one to look at ambiguity in films because they possibly are the masters at it. Like people are often trying to dissect Coen Brothers films they're quite reluctant to discuss their films and the themes of their films in any specific detail. And I've heard them say, to be honest, they say, people think films mean you know a lot, they mean lesson they think you know. And I love I love that. It seems like it might be a theme today, but

I think what you do is, this is my guess.

Anyway, you make a film and you have everything in your head about what it's about, and you just don't give everyone every bit of information. And I can't tell you how relieved I am that the Coen Brothers don't talk about their films. Because recently, Quentin Tarantino, it's been on the campaign trail and a few podcasts I listened to.

Boo shitting on his own movie. Perhaps it also shitting on the legacy and memory of you know, Bruce Lee, which you know, I think he's I think he's been forced to discuss this a little bit recently because Shannon Lee, Bruce's daughter with discusses a bit on the show recently, has come out and said, yeah, not not cool. It's not cool.

And you know, he's saying, oh, I did all this research and all these people said these things, and it's like everyone's come out, so no, like what's he talking about?

You know?

So anyway, but.

So I love that the Coen Brothers don't come out of nowhere and say, now, let us explain the Big Lebowski and I'll be like a l l l l l L la la la, No, don't ruin it.

It's all good. I'm fine.

Yeah. David Lynch is somebody who I I'm not an aficionado on David Lynch by any stretch of imagination. I do remember seeing Whilst Highway in cinemas and really enjoying it, and I think I've watched it since, so I would even struggle to recall the plot line, to be honest, of this David Lynch film, outside of David Arkettes in it, is that right, Patricia Arquette, Patricia Arquette, Okay, one of the art kids in there some ready. I can see David Arkette in it. But Patricia Arquette is in it.

So it came out in sort of like the mid to late nineties and wasn't a big hit at all, but it was. It kind of emotionally predicts the twenty first century, and it's a bit of a horror movie, but in a very David Lynch way. So essentially, Bill Pullman's character is a saxophonist and he plays at night, and then he and his wife, who's played by Patricia Arquette, start getting delivered these video cassettes, and the video cassettes when they put them on and watch them, it's them

It, watch it in the dark, don't you know?

As we hear inteny, i't try to understand it, just feel it and you will be taken on a real journey.

Yeah. And I think if I hadn't have seen it in the cinema, I may have you know, I may have drifted off and gotten distracted by various things around me. And I think you're asolutely right. I should revisit it, actually, because I remember really enjoying it at the time. We're going to take a break and then we're going to come back, and I want to know what you actually thought of William A. Freakin's nineteen seventy one classic The

I loved it like I loved it and I was riveted.

And you know, I think I mentioned this earlier.

It's it's strangely modern, like the way the camera moves and the way it depicts people. It's i'll tell you what it's confronting as well, because especially watching it in the modern day, I don't think you were ever meant to like the character of Popeye, but even more so now with how we know, you know, some aspects of American police force work. You're sitting there going, oh, the casual racism, the.

Just the the first scene where one of the first scenes where they're basically, you know, they're dressed up as Santa and then they they're beating up a you know, African American kid, you know, or you know, a young adults. It's really it is really hard to watch. And most of the black characters, you know ari that yeah, you know, criminals or you know, drug users, you know, a problematic you know. So, yeah, that is you know, yeah, that

Yeah, I don't. Yeah, that's a really good question. Actually, I wonder how it did feel in nineteen seventy one. You know, it's an R rated film, so I don't think it's meant to be consumed by the masses.

It's definitely a grown up movie. I think it's probably.

Depicts the world that those characters live in perfectly, and I think that's what in the end, watching it with that context in mind is what made the film not feel exploitive. It was it was, Okay, well, this is their world. It's not a world that I particularly like. It's not a world that I would particularly want to visit, but I understand that's the world that they're in. But it's a hell of a performance by both of them. Gene Hackman, his intensity all the way through it is great.

I love that. I hope you're right. I'm gonna have to go back and watch it again. I certainly think Roy Schider is the his character is the more passive of the two. I think if you say one criticism of the yeah, you've got Popeye Doyle, who's, you know, a fascinating character, and Roy Schider is kind of a long for the ride.

Yeah, well you kind of get flashes of his character in that. Once again, you don't really spend as much time with him, but you do pick up he's incredibly loyal, but he doesn't.

The reason he gets along.

With Popeye's he'll put up with his shit to a certain extent, but then there'll be moments when he pushes back and will sort of, you know, slap him around a little bit to get him back on track. But then, you know, especially in that phenomenal scene, once again, describing it will sound strange that it's riveting, but when they're pulling the car apart looking for the drugs, and and that scene goes forever, and the longer.

It goes, you're like, this has been a terrible mistake.

And we've seen them most too, so it's quite on the cards that they have fucked this up absolutely, And I.

Think it's it's it's it's set up from the very opening that this is a film it's going to take its time, you know, and I it's alike on this podcast chatting about how a movie starts, you know, what it sets up, And I think, what what this movie sets up? What freaking's trying to do? You have the the French guy who we we don't know who this guy is. We suspect he's on the lookout. He's kind of doing his own little stakeout. He's kind of hiding

It is. I'm so glad you brought that up.

That was one of my notes that I wrote down because it made me laugh so much, because you've just seen this poor guy get shot in the face. And not only does the guy go and take the beget, but he only takes some of it, Like he just takes it.

The whole fucking beget. Mate, He's paid for it.

Well, unless unless the rest of the beget had some blood on it, because there was a lot of there was a lot of splatter. I would have loved to have seen that actually, just like brushing a little bit of blood off the beget before before reading it. I must I think I thought of you when I when that happened, because I thought, I reckon, Hammo is gonna be chuckling at that?

Yeah, No, you know, well, I just it is.

It's such a perfect little kind of touch to add to a film, isn't it That? It just what's over I'll just take a little bit, keeps walking, and that's the end of that guy's story.

And then it's juxtaposed beautifully. Yeah, you got the basically the south of France and the year on the the rivery era, I guess, and the house of the criminal, you know, our mastermind criminal kind of lives and then he's going to be the villain for the film. And and then you go to Brooklyn and you you see Hackman and Scheider on you know, it's interesting because you have the they said the bad guy, they said, the killer. You know, he kills somebody, you know, okay, he's the killer.

Hey ship ed was like playing pick your feet?

What's he talking about?

I've got a man of Phokeepsie want to talk to you.

Have you ever been for huh?

Have you ever been for Keepsie? At here? You said? Come on, have you ever been for Keepsie? You better Forughkeepsie? Haven't you?

I want to hear it? Come on, yes, have you been there?

Right?

Yeah?

You sat on the edge of the back, didn't you?

Can you have your shoes?

Put your finger between I was to.

Pick your feet, don't you?

That's all right?

You want to see on my fight?

You know what that means?

God damn it?

Oh what wrong? I got? Let's grape and balis bowling scores.

Now I'm gonna fust your out for those three bags and I'm gonna nail your.

I mean, it's it's strange, like it's so the story behind it is so the two the two. So this is based on a book. The book was touch boring, so we in frequent wasn't particularly interested in adapting it. But then he actually met two of the guys who did. Was he we were involved with this big kind of drug busts uh and and they cops names were it was Grasso and and Eden I think their names were.

Well, it comes up very briefly, and so I was like you, I was like, what is going on here?

Do I need to remember about this?

And then the I figured it must have been a tactic to make someone feel disorientated, but I didn't I didn't know if there was a specificity to that term.

And the only reason I sort of thought it must be.

So that's one of the scenes where Roy Scheider starts laughing, and so he turns away at one point and he's got the giggles, So I'm thinking, Okay, well, there's there's something going on there. And then later on one of the other cops says to Popeye, he are you still picking your feet and Poughkeepsie, you know, and he kind of right. So I was like, oh, is he known

Is that that's essentially.

I think that's absolutely correct. Yeah, And then they they shot that. They went to shoot out I think on the first day, and Gene Hackman was quite uncomfortable, you know, with the racist elements. So even he I guess to go back to what we're talking about before, had this felt in nineteen seventy one, the fact that Gene Hackman

Yeah, manipulating actors.

There's something kind of you know, it's bullying in many ways, and you've seen it with.

That that that Kubrick story is awful.

There's the that awful story about Dustin Hoffman really slapping Meryl Streep and Kramer versus Kramer like and you know she wasn't expecting. On the plot side, Edward Norton punching Brad Pitt in the year after Fincher told him to do it. So then you get that reaction of ah, my ear like that reaction.

But you know that feels that feels different.

You're you're making a movie called Fight Club with David Fincher, guess what he's probably going to do at some point. But these other films, it's like, you know, acting is pretendsies. Just you know, like I'm not downplaying it. It's a it's a wonderful skill, but it is pretensies. And I don't know if you have to psychologically damage someone to get a performance.

I just think it comes down to when you when you hire your actor, hire the actor that you know can get to that point that you need that you need them to be yeah, you know.

And it's amazing that he wanted to quit because he wins Best Actor in nineteen seventy one for this performance.

Yeah, this one. It's one of a couple of a couple of oscars. There's talk that there's a lot of improvis going on. There's been quite a bit of debate because a screenwriter said, and he won for Best Screenplay and has kind of said, no, there wasn't as much

No, I totally agree, And I think it's there's been kind of a movement that is not dissimilar to maybe I don't know, it's hard. I don't know anything about time anymore since Lockdown. It's till twenty twenty one, isn't it. But I feel like about twelve fifteen years ago there was a movement in the Australian comedy scene where it was like he's doing a routine, he's prepared, and it

I completely agree. To get back to your point, you've almost set it up as a theme for this episode, which I love is the ambiguity of this, and I do love that we don't we don't really know anything about their past. We don't know how long these two, ma'am. I've only seen it, you know, last night, so maybe I've missed it. But we don't know how long these guys have ever been partners for, you know, are there we assume there's no there's no partners involved in wives Popeyes.

Yeah, you feel like they I totally agree, And I feel like they've been together for a while. I think you kind of get that impression with the way they talk to each other.

I think you get that in the way, as we.

Discussed before about the way Shido Back's Popeye, we get little bits and pieces from the other cops. He's obviously had hunters where he's been right on the money, and it looks like he's had hunches where he has been way off.

And he's also so.

One of his hunters has led to the death of another cop at some point, and he seems to be either just completely ignoring it or maybe that's why he's an alcoholic. Maybe part of his genius is that, you know, he can't control it, and he dampens it by you know, running himself into the ground. And part of what makes this movie so fascinating is, you know, you talked about that opening where you go, oh, this must be one of our main characters.

Up, mister Burgett. He's gone. And then suddenly we're following.

These two cops and these two worlds intertwine by chance because they go to the club and then they look over and they see someone that you know, Popeye's brilliance genius gets a hunch on that is correct, that leads to something much bigger, and it's yeah, it's fascinating the way it kind of plays out that way.

Yeah, I do love that these two almost I guess, you know, I'm the sure if beat cops is the right word. Yeah, they're cops that aren't you suspect you know, if you've seen the other guys, they're not quite the other guys where they're being they're coping ship back at the station because but you know, they're not they're not receiving medals and they're not you know, but and they they run their own they run their own race in a way. But you're right, they've had some failures and

Oh yeah, And I don't want to get to the ending just yet, but just to keep in mind when we do get there, I think the very final title card also informs us of.

Their history, if that makes sense.

So okay, with the denouement, I think they kind of sets in stone the type of guys we've been watching for the whole movie.

Okay, we'll put that. We'll come back to a little placeholder there.

Forward.

Anything from commercial radio.

Now he's some smash mouth so Roy Scheider, they've got him cloudy. I think in this I think in one of the in the IMBD he's referred to as Buddy Russo. So we've got we're him his Cloudy and from here on in so Cloudy goes back to Popeye's house or apartment, and it's I think deliver very much deliberately. It's it's almost like a prison set up. It's quite a depressing place.

Yeah.

Look, we don't spend a lot of time with her, so I'm not going to say that she wasn't empowered. But yes, thank goodness, he was the one with the handcuffs, him to the bear.

But just that whole setup.

As soon as soon as the door opens and the pushbike has kind of leaned up against the door, it's a bummer, Like you already have an idea that this guy things aren't great for him, and then you get to his house and you go, oh, I underestimated how shitty's life. Yes, and it feels like it's his fault as well, do you know what I mean? Like you feel like his life is this way because of the way he conducts himself and he can't conduct himself any other way.

Yeah, And I like the fact that they're not. They didn't whether this was a trope already or they just ignored it or it became a trip later on. But he's not. He's not a divorce divorcee who's you know, been left with nothing and this is what he's been left with. It's like, no, this is this is all

Yeah, and yeah, that would have felt ahead of the time. You know, it's funny because now you know it's a called this. I have to take the tape off my camera on my computer because that's just what you do, like it is, you know, Oh yeah, everything's listening to me. Oh hang on, let me just have a conversation about the French connection. Hang on, I'll just go on Instagram. Oh look, there's a site that was to send me

Yeah. One of my favorite, one of my favorite scenes is and because we mentioned this, you mentioned the scientific shut a bit. A bit more about it later. The lack of dialogue. There's long stretches where there's no dialogue, but there's a I think there's a scene where it's I think the best dialogue perhaps in the film is when they're they're having the heroin measured or tested to see how pier it is, and there's a lovely dialogue that comes from the man doing it. Let's have a listen.

Plas stuff one eight zero two hundred Good Housekeeping Seale of Approval to ten US Governments Certified two twenty Lunar Trajectory Junk of the Month club Sirloin Steak two thirty Create a Poison, Absolute Dynamite.

Junk of the Month, club Sirloin Steak. It's a one. It's the one time where somebody's allowed to have this kind of almost clean, patient kind of you know dialogue that's actually it's got a bit of swagger about it, really, like it's the rest of it's so real and so like, you know, in the moment and heated that this is like quiet a moment. This guy is completely relaxed about it, you know, and is in his element.

Oh mate, he's a beat poet the way he's and you know, it is one of the things that I enjoy with watching specifically older movies as well, is thinking, oh, would you like to see this as a TV show.

Now, I think this is perfect as a movie, but if they made this as a TV show, I'm giving that character.

An ARC because I want to keep.

Just testing junk all over town, just being really cool, and I don't really want to give him any come uppance. Like, I know he's not a good dude, but I'm happy to keep following him. He's kind of amusing, I've got to say, one of the most refreshing aspects.

Of this film.

And he is a example of this. He doesn't have cap teeth. He just has normal teeth. There's a little crack there, you know, it's like just kind of have normal mouths and people kind of you know, everyone looks like it's a sea of Caucasian men and they all look different, and it's quite it's quite satisfying.

Some are a bit pudgy, some are a bit round.

You know, Roy Scheider's got this this rugged handsomeness that you just do not see in actors in any way anymore.

You know.

Now actors are and this is not you know, having a go, but now they you know, they have chemical pills and they look after their faces and all that kind of stuff that Roy Scheider looks like I just spent sixteen hours in the sun smoking, and I.

Feel and Gene Hackman running is just like here's forty one when he made this, and and yeah, I love that He's not yeah, is not Vin Diesel, you know, chasing somebody down. He's fucking struggling. The only the only way they catch that that kid at the start is because he thought he falls over, you know, and every when he jumps, he jumps the rail. At one point it looks like he came so close to not making that, not clearing that rail.

I reckon if he had not cleared it, I have a feeling that would have been in the movie because he would have just going and they just would have they would have just left the realism of it, because you know, they left the realism of everything that happened with the car. So Geene Hackman face planting would have become a part of the story.

I would have loved to have seen that and the realism. How's this for nineteen seventy seventies Hollywood filmmaking New Hollywood? And that scene that we'd just listened to where they're measuring the heroin it was real heroin?

Oh you serious? It's a Heroin.

All right, we'll get some it's real because you know what the best part of that is. I guess they had to claim it on tax movie king product.

They I don't know, and I imagine, imagine not every time you see the Heroin, it's it's it's real. But in that instance when they measured it so that small amount where they may put whatever they put in there, and to do it all they wanted to make it as real as possible. And yeah, real Heroin. So maybe that guy of a rat party.

Yeah, started off really exciting and then everyone just kind of sat around and listened to.

The Let's talk about the train. You refer to it earlier on it is it's one of my favorite scenes of the film. It it. I think you said something like it has no right being that that intriguing it is so it is so beautiful, you know, choreographed and and and performed.

Oh and the fact that I think what's fascinating about it. I don't know if you read it the same way, but at first I can't tell if the tail knows that he's being tailed. So that's part of the intrigue. Is is he aware or is he not aware? And is he kind of messing with Popeye or is he uncertain that Popeye is there and trying to trick him. And then there's just a point where you sit there and you go, nah, he knows, he knows, and he's

Well that guy just won.

Yeah, yeah, I read it exactly the same way, and it was It was just fascinating, even when when I think the last time Hacking or Popeye gets off the train and you have the French villain in the background and you know he's gone back on, but we know that Pope are still looking the wrong way, and it's too late.

You go to know, look the other way, the other way around, and why are you still playing the game of Oh yeah, I'm just casually stepping off for the fifteenth time, and I don't want you to know that I know.

And then that's how that's what I thought.

I thought. I thought, surely at some point you're kind of like you got to make a little bit of eye contact and go, let's do this. Yeah, it's on. The cat has found the mouse.

It's so good.

But once again, just describing that people would be thinking walking on and off a train, how is that compelling?

But it is amazing.

And we've seen we've seen you know, that scene since then, and I'm not sure you know if there's how many cops chasing bad guys on trains or not even cops necessarily, but you know how many scenes like that there were predates this one, But this, I know, this feels like it might have been one that has inspired many of those scenes we see where bad guys are being chased through trains and carriages and vice versa.

Yeah, this feels like a really groundbreaking movie, like a ground zero for a lot of where these types of movies go in the future. And it's part of the fun of watching these films, isn't it. And suddenly, oh, I've seen that in you know, in the future down the road. There's been movies over gone we're going to do our version of that scene. And this is where

I thought it was extraordinary. The more I think about.

It, Well, it's we mentioned it shot, you know, documentary style. It was a gorilla style because it's it's they didn't get permits for anything. So so in that scene we in frequent is basically whether it's him pushing it, the dop or at least the cameraman. I'm sure the DP shot that particular scene, or if he had cameraman you know, taking his place, but he was basically pushed in a

This is a masterpiece and the way that they just kind of take their time with it. I had a suspicion somewhere in the movie, maybe the verse third. I kind of knew that the car chase didn't have any permits, but they kind of hit in the back of my head. I wonder if they really had any permits for anything.

Yeah, that's that's where your second view. And but that's that when I when I when I hear you films where they haven't got permits and they're not extras, they're real people, I always think, yeah, okay, but how how they're not looking to the camera, Because if you're walking down the stairs and there's a camera there, your eyes

I reckon on the street.

Though for the most part it takes you a bit by a surprise, and I think the majority of people your gut instinct is I don't want to be in this, right, you know, I don't know what this is like at the state of origin or something like that. You're there, you know, for sport, and you kind of will instinctively put two and two together, which is they must be reporting on the sport.

I'm into sport. I'm on the camera. But I reckon on the street.

When you're just trying to go and you've got forty five minutes for lunch and you just want to get yourself a non bloody forget, and you see a camera, you think, oh god, I don't need to be a part of this, and you quickly cross the road.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're probably right. The pace certainly picks up around this at this point. You get the train and then you've got the assassination attempt on Popeye. I thought, I when I seem started, and then there's the baby in the pram right, and then the mum gets shot. Yeah, and I was I was waiting for almost the you know, one of my favorite movies, The Untouchable, is that they're great scene with the pram in the in the central station and and it's just such a brilliant Elliott nests

Yeah, and you know, it feels like it would have been out of character to have that, like, that's not this movie, isn't it. Like if he's suddenly crouching over the woman and dragging her to safety and running out to get the baby, you're suddenly thinking is this Popeye?

Or is this maybe this is what Gene Hackman would do.

But Popeye just you know, he wants to whoever's shooting at him, He's going to get him. And it's and once again, that's another thing that plays into the ending as well. You know, we've already seen when we get to the end and how that plays out. We've already seen what happens when he gets shot at with an innocent bystander being shot.

He is single minded and this is probably.

What works for him as a cop and also what works against him.

Absolutely. I think the guy who is sent to kill him, he says, basically, I'll take care of this in a pretty cocky way, really fucked this up. Like like if you if you're gonna say in your French, you know, in your cocky French, you know with certain amount of assurance, you know, I'll take care of this. Have a better plan, mate, Like, surely there's a better way of going up on a rooftop and try to take him out from there. I mean, you know, I've seen I've seen hits in movies before,

Well, I think he probably overthought it because he was a cop, so we thought I'd better do this from a distance. But I have a feeling that there would have been there would have been a lot of cops coming after him, but there would have been also a lot of cops that went, oh, thank goodness, because that guy is a pain in the ass and now I don't have to deal with him anymore. So he probably overthought how to do it. Also, like you know, like

You know.

He didn't ever forget and then and then we're led. So basically there's a chase, and it leads to this amazing car chase which you alluded to before. No permits are given, so assistant directors helped out, but also local police helped out. Basically off duty police officers helped out to kind of keep it reasonably safe for about five blocks and then they're on there, so they shut They kept shooting outside those five blocks and that's when they

Oh yeah, it feels real, and because even the little accidents that happen in it are weighted in reality, like you know when you see you know, I've seen some great car chases in movies. But often when you know someone gets hit or whatever, there is a moment where you just this little part of your brain that thinks they're not walking out of that, how are they walking out of that?

That is they have been wiped out.

I'm pretty certain a seat belt wouldn't have made that much difference. Always wear a seatbelt, kids, But I don't think in that hit in particular, they're getting out of

Yeah, well, bullet Bullet was an inspiration for this. In fact, we frequent said that he wanted to you know, that was that was the blueprint and he wanted to try

Story going on on the train as well, so you know.

Exactly, Yeah, the car chase, it's this guy that he's chasing people suddenly realizing this dude is not right and him going to the front of the train. The poor conductor ends up having a heart attack of some sort. Like there's just so much going on up there. And then when you cut back to then it's the thrilling, visceral car chase, and there's a lot happening in that that overall scene.

And that train conductor is a real train conductor. They could they weren't allowed to have anybody else. Actually, they couldn't have an actor because he actually he had to stop the train, you know, at some point. So so he was actually real, a real, a real train conductor. And the guy who gets shot also it was a real I'm not sure what they call that role, but he was. He was like a he belonged to the Actors Guild, and so he got that that that part

Even the lead up to it, of them on the stakeout and watching the car that goes around the block three times, and eventually when they start, that car stops and starts breaking into it, and then all the cops descend. And I don't know about you, but I was sitting there going, I reckon, these are just punks who have seen a car and they're just coming back two more times to check it out before they steal it. And then it turns out that the cops have made a

So did I I completely agree. And as much as they take it apart, boy, they put it back together nicely, don't they. I Mean, they come for the car, and we suspect that they're not going to get the car because the car's fucking total. It's been literally pulled apart. They found the drugs in there eventually, and I was at the point where I was like, well, I can't imagine where the drugs would be now, so it's a

I was gobsmacked. I thought exactly the same thing.

I honestly thought it was going to end with them saying, eh, like, what have you done to our car? It's like you're nicked, But instead it comes out brand new, and I was like, holy shit, like how did Wow? Those guys really deserve my respect. They've done a great job, which.

Again these days you would go, well, hang on that, they haven't that. That's going to take longer. That's going to take a week to surely do that, you know, And you know, I don't know if there's any panel beaters listening Yasney Podcasts at gmail dot com, let us know how long it would take to put that car back together. But I'm assumed it's not twenty minutes or whatever it might. It might have been an hour or something.

Who knows how long they've been pulling it apart before the guys come in but we do know that once those guys get there, they've been there four hours. So depending on like you know, are we are we meant to be thinking that they're still pulling it apart while they're there, or maybe we're seeing them pulling it apart and then they come in and that's actually when they've started putting it back together.

Yeah, for some reason, my mind was telling me and I might be wrong, but they were still pulling it apart while though they were in the office, So I might be wrong. But it's a remarkable, a remarkable effort.

So is it is it possibly just another car that looks like that, that they've put the price back on the front because there was a car in the Pound. But I don't know if that's true either, because cars back then there's there seem to be lots of cars that look very different as opposed to now where you'd say, oh, yeah, they just.

Yeah a new one, Yeah they got it. They got a Kiya in there, they Suzuki Swift. It seemed to me that was a reasoning unique car, and if not totally unique, it was maybe more European.

Yeah. No, they put it back together for sure.

Yeah, I reckon we're supposed to believe that that they've put it back together. There's a great they go across the bridge, they're waiting for them. There's a great wave, which is an image I've seen and he's often the image used when you know, if you're reading an article on the French connection, and it's that close up of Popeye waving back to our to our villains. And then we're at the warehouse and this is basically the end of the film, and it's quite extraordinary. They go in

Yeah, or even give him a wait till you get to the end, mate, because you don't absolutely you miss out in the last three minutes. But I feel like that is that's one of those things where in hindsight we really get an idea of what kind of character Popeye is that you know, it's the baby, it's thought there's the woman with the baby being murdered, and he just keeps going and he has he's obviously calls the

Which we don't know.

Maybe this guy riding him is completely deserved.

But he does not bat an eyelid. He just you know, he threeloads his gun.

And yeah, yeah, yeah you can if you look for it, you can. You can probably read into it a bit of like a Okay, that's something I might have to deal with that, but I'm not going to deal with it now. But it's quite extraordinary, and you touched on it earlier with the baby in the pram. It's not

Just briefly before I get to that, it makes sense that he shoots that cop as well, because he nearly shoots Roy Scheider, like he nearly takes out his mate when he comes in as well.

Is he's ready to shoot? Yeah, it's all done.

I loved the ending, the ambiguity of the ending of him going off into that room, and then you just start getting these place cards, and the place cards telling you, like the whole operation is not one hundred percent of success. It's a mild success, but it's not enough of a success because what we learn in the very final the final panel of these guys get reassigned like they have quite clearly been on the edge before this movie ever started.

They're done.

And there's a part of me so I know there's a sequel, and I have no interest in the sequel because I love this ending so much, and there's a you know how they say, we don't know if this Frenchman got away? But did Popeye shoot him and like dump him in a river or something like that? You know is or did he get away? Like the not knowing is what makes it fascinating to me.

The sequel and I haven't seen it. It kind of it kind of it kind of ruins this ending for me a little bit, you know, because I because I know and maybe I should have read at least a little bit of what the sequel is about. But I know that that he got away, like because because a sequel is is Popeye for some reason with that cloudy going to France besides searching for our villain whose name is Elaine Chenier, And that's what the sequel is about.

And on the Disney app.

It's in a Pixar section. Surprisingly, it is on the Disney app if you're looking for it, and I was like, Oh, what's what's going on? Because it's just a freeze of the close up of one of the actors and then and then the title card comes the words come up. I was, ah, that's the that's the ending. Because I was fully ready. Okay, now it's the chase moment, and I'm okay not to have that moment, but I was.

It's funny. It's even the start of the film.

It's a little bit like the film started and oh it's ended, and it's it's like Freedkin just comes in hard while the story's already got a bit of momentum and finishes it where he desides he's going to finish it. I wish I hadn't looked up what the sequel was about either. I reckon, you're completely right, because I like, there's four years difference between the person and the second, and you know, there weren't really you know, you had.

Bond, but there weren't really those types of movie franchises.

Like I think it was a pretty big deal when Godfather Part two was that's right, so and it didn't do like I think it did all right, but it it didn't do as well. And I think the thing I read was Hackman saying, you know, four years difference is too much. But also I just like, I really loved the film and I just didn't have any urge to see Popeye again.

Yeah, yeah, I agree. And there was also a TV series in eighty four with Ed O'Neil TV's Ted Bundy and also obviously j for Modern Family as Popeye himself. Before we go, here's some fun facts. I've weaved some of these fun facts throughout the episode, but here is someone did get to the straw hat that he puts on the back dash of the car is taken from That's a sign apparently in New York at the time when undercover agents were on duty, so be assigned to

Police officers somewhere He's not meant to they see the straw hat. He's on the job, no worries inside and getting some cake and coffee.

Apparently one of the coldest New York winters on record at the time of shooting. Was particularly it was bloody freezing so or the movie it does you feel it, don't you? Yeah? And they cut to eat it in the grass. That were advisors we mentioned, and they also went on to become they almost quit their jobs and when on become technical advisors in various Hollywood films and

I wonder if that's been used in another movie. I do know that song. I feel like maybe it's.

I don't know why, but as soon as I'd heard about that, I suddenly thought of Carlito's way. That might be incorrect, but it feels like something musically from that world.

Apparently if you play that to the to the car chase, very enjoyable experience.

I'm told I am going to give that a crack.

Actually, I am going to find that and I'm going to give that a go because that sounds fascinating because it does have a rhythm to it as well, like has a very specific feel and rhythm as to how it plays out. And it's just going to be like the gritty version of Pink Floyd to Wizard of Oz.

There's also I think what was the Space Odyssey? We did that recently with Tony Armstrong and there's it was that Pink Floyd again or was another Pink Floyd song when they go through that start our gate there's a particular Pink Floyd. So I imagine if you smoke the ride drugs and listen to Pink Floyd and put onto any movie, it'll you know, it'll it'll work. It's magic somehow.

On Golden Pond put with Henry Fonder and Katherine Herbert side of the movie.

Yep, this is a little matter, mate. Always a pleasure to hang out and it's good to talk movies in microphones with you again after all these years. I know this podcast comes with homework. I really appreciate it. I did mention it in the intro your podcast The Big Squid, which covers a lot of really deep diving pop cultural stuff, and they did last time on The Watchmen and a whole heap of stuff. So yeah, congratulations on that leads. It's going gangbusters.

Oh yeah, thank you.

Yeah, it's TV, movies, books, graphic novels, music, whatever people are into.

You know, we like to celebrate it. And it doesn't mean it.

We don't have criticism sometimes, but we try to come at criticisms from a place of love rather than just you know, shitting on things. Unless it's the movie Shape of Water, then we're happy to.

I will defend the Shape. I'll watch the Shape of Water reacter because Hughsey was going to do the Shape of Water and then and then like I got home one night, the night before we were recording, and and like eleven thirty at night, and he gets it. He leaves me a messag saying, ah, I couldn't download the Shape of Water. Can we do? I've done Pretty in Pink instead, So okay, you've done it, that have you? Okay, I'm gonna watch Pretty in Pink now. But Shape we

Yeah, that's great. Great to see your pink.

There we go one an incredible talent Jean Hackman. Was I really enjoyed that chat at the time with my great mate Hammo. We'll be back next week. Back on course. Apologies for those who are expecting the Josh Thompson Toy Story two episode this week. That'll be rather about next week.