Get a Pete Helly here. Welcome to you Ain't Seen Nothing Yet The Movie Podcast, where our chat to a movie lover about a classic or beloved movie they haven't quite got around to watching until now. And today's guest is comedian, broadcaster, podcaster, producer, director Karen Nicholson.
All below, I want to stay here with you, got little jobber? Why hate?
Snake shocked?
Why fail?
They could haven't a right?
No, you ain't seen nothing.
New, Karen Nicholson Wheatley is an outstanding human being, and the very talented one at that. I've really enjoyed getting to know Kien over the particularly the last few years, hanging out with him at various gigs and at the Comedy Republic, which he runs and owns, and it is one of the outstanding comedy venues in Australia, in fact the world. It is a brilliant place to hang out at the comedy festival and in fact all year round.
It's got a great room and also a great bar to have a drink at before and after I owed you all to get down there. Guere jay listeners will know Kira and he's been on there for years. He's actually one of the fanning producers of the hugely successful bang On with Zanro former guest of Yasney and also my great mate Before Hurst, former guest of Yasney as well. Karen has done heaps of different podcasts over the years.
He's doing one now, in fact, with Reese. He's amazing husband Ry Nichelson, and we all know Reeese from Report's Drag Race, former guest of Yasney, the winner of the Most Outstanding Show at Last is Old Comedy Festival in twenty twenty one. But back to Karen, Sorry, Reese. One of the podcasts Karen does is wax Quizzical and I was a guest on that while my alter ego Strawney was wax Quizzical is basically a quiz, but they have characters in their performing the quiz, so comedians kind of
playing characters. It is a lot of fun. Karen is bloody fund the hangaround, is smart as a whip, and he's a bloody talented bugger. He can do everything and anything. But today we're going to talk movies and I'm bloody stoked to be hanging with Karen today. Hello, this is Karen Nicholson. Here.
My three favorite films are Dunkirk.
There's no hiding from this sun, because do you think you can do with that?
On this thing?
It's not just us, the all went on. We aren't the only ones to answer. You know, you don't even have guns. You have a gun, yes, of course, right from the three h three. Did it help you against the dive bombers and the U boats?
You're an own fool.
I'm not going back. I'm going back the departed. Hey, think you do pop somebody and there's a special card to play. That guy, Jimmy Baggs, whose joy you broke, happens to work undercover for the Boston Police Department.
I'm going fucking nuts, man, I can't be someone else every fucking day.
It's been a year of this.
I've had enough of this shit.
Oh I'm done, all right. Most of the people in the world do it every day. What's the big deal? I'm not down, all right, I'm not fucking them? Okay, exactly, you're nobody. You signed the papers.
Remember now, we're the only two people on the face of this earth that even though you're a cop.
How wut we just erase your file?
Huh?
And Jojo Rabbitt Hitler. Allow me to introduce myself.
I am cutting Hellman, diet Soft, the Falcon Angerstapo me, have MoU la her Youngka and have may we come in?
Thank you so much?
Hit laugh, I'll hit luck, I'll hit luck, I'll hit love, I'll hit slack.
But until today, I've never seen connor knowledge.
I won't lie to you. I was a little worried, and along comes this bobby. I get one look at the size of the pair on her, and I never had a doubt I'd ever be anything but okay again.
And I was. I was.
With all our kidding back and forth on our first night together. I don't mind telling you I had tears in my eyes.
She's really the girl in the airline commercial.
You lucky son of a bitch. I don't know.
I don't want to get in over my head. I got in over my head three four times already, and have to be a real bastard. I like being put in that position.
What would you do if she looks anything like she looks on television size thirty eight with a d cup, but looks her in everything, believe me, looks for everything.
Maybe two college roommates, Sandy play By art Garfuncle and Jonathan Jack Nicholson are obsessed with getting to first, second, third, and then of course, scoring a home run after the round the bases. Sandy, the sweeter of the two, is under the tutelage of Jonathan, and when he begins hanging out with Susan played by Cannicebergen, he is in a hurry that gets some runs on the board by putting
you in the friend zone. Susan, feeling sorry for Sandy, then puts him in the friends with fringe benefits zone. But when Jonathan moves in and begins dating Susan on the side, it sets these two mates on a complicated path that never quite collides, but rather drunkenly dances around
each other for the next twenty odd years. Written by a Pulitzer Prize an Oscar winner Jules Pfeiffer, directed by the legendary Mike Nichols, Carl and Knowledge feels almost like a forgotten classic, a somewhat precursor to the American sex comedies of the early eighties, but with much more to say than say Meatballs. Nineteen seventy one's Carl and Knowledge also includes Ann Margaret in the film's only Oscar nominated role.
She would nab a Golden Globe for her role as Bobby Jonathan's dream girl that turns into his living nightmare. Carlinal Knowledge tackles male misogyny and toxicity way before we knew it was important to talk about these things. Karen Nicholson, have you ever jumped into a pool fully clothed after losing your virginity twice? Twice? Excellent? Because I thought maybe you would want to skirt her out. I thought you you may be a bullshit artist.
Well as a bisexual, I can lose my virginity twice. So no, I've never done that. But that's what a sensational scene of this film. That that is God, this film. I've become obsessed with Mike Nichols.
So this is the reason this film has been nominated. We discuss and by the way, great to have you on board many many nights, usually a comedy republic. You know, we shout each other from the You've got to come do the podcast pick a film and pick a film.
So when you then you sent me a list of fifty and I said, none of those.
But this is such a well I want to deep dive into the film just yet. But this is a great film because I think a lot of our audience I had not seen it. It's a film that doesn't get spoken about a lot. It's a very early Jack Nicholson film. He comes up Easy Rider and I think five easy pieces and then does this film. It kind of singles the end of Simon and garf Uncle because yeah, yeah, yeah, because he's the garf uncle.
You know.
I thought I would have a crack at acting and did a bloody good job of it. Again, we'll get to more of it later, but you currently doing a Mike Nichols deep dive. Yeah.
So Reese, my partner, my husband, my wife.
I don't know what the word is.
When someone's non binary spouse is unfortunate as a word, isn't it? That's an unfortunate non binary partner word. But bought me a book called Mike Nichols A Life, and it's incredible biography that has collected. I don't know how he's done it, the author whose name escapes me right now, but he's got like there must be diaries, his diaries everywhere that he's collected and put in some sort of chronic chronological order, so that he can attribute to people.
But it is written in this very conversational way. It's like it puts you in the room and but in a sort of factual way. It's not made up at all. It's like, no, this is these are the things that happened. These are the things that were done and said. And Mike Nichols was a formative member of improv in Chicago, like and built really with Del Close, had a bunch of improvisers in Chicago what we know of today as improv, like all the rules, like yes and like all that shit.
He's he's there his second city, wasn't it yeh second city? That's he's he's there at the very start of what became that. And then he goes and becomes a theater director in New York and has like four Broadway hits at once, like four shows are running that you cannot get a ticket to, Like he's absolutely odd couple.
I think the Odd Couple was one of the was one of his.
Uh.
And then he goes to Hollywood and his first film is Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolf? And this is his I'm only up to the fourth film as I'm reading this book. I and watching his back catalog as we go so that I can sort of so it's like a companion piece to his filmography.
Amazing, amazing because when they offered him Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolf, he was like a self made man by that stage.
He was.
He was wealthy based on because he did the He teamed that with is Elaine May for May Nichols and then Yeah, and then goes to Broadway, has all these hits. So when they came in and said we want you to direct Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolf, he said, yeah, sure, but I want to do it in black and white, and they're like, no, I know, You've got to do it in color. And he said, you know what I was I could do could spend time at home.
Yeah, yeah, literally, So he wasn't.
Courting Hollywood and it's amazing and I think, again we're probably deep having a bit more. But he was probably the best at making plays converting them into movies because sometimes we've seen, you know, were you watching a movie you think this feels like a play and probably should
have stayed a play. He is amazing at it. So for those who don't know, so the graduate obviously maybe is like the most famous Mike Nichols film, but there's all these even you know he's working up until Charlie Wilson's Water was a really good one with Tom Hanks, Julie Robertson and Philisimmoa Hoffman Closer with Nellie Portman and Julie roberts I'm gonna have to dive more into Mike Nichols.
And also I know that I have seen a couple of docodes about him, But there is so much to read and to take in about Mike Nichols, and we'll do more of that very soon. Let's talk about your three favorite films and really good ones here?
And what did I say, Because I've got a list of seven, and when you said you've got to say them at the top of the show, I was like, well, I'm about to pick three, and.
You can throw in apologies. This is shooting three films. Is tough, is violent, It's violent. And you know, I was a mutual friend of ours and came on this show and she took me to task of making her pick three films. I thought that seems sup a critical. She literally has a show called Take five. When she asked her to choose a top five songs of all time all there, you know, yes, you know in that sphere.
Let's go through your top three films and then we'll do some apologies phat Dunkirk is but a great Christopher Nolan of course, and.
Yeah, tell us like Dunkirk, Well, Dunkirk, I'll just watch I'll I'll just put it on. Yeah, and it's also handy that it's like quite short. It's like eighty seven minutes or something like that, and so you can just put it on. You know, I'll get home at night and just put that film on. I think it's I just think it's masterful.
You know.
What Christopher Nolan is known for in his time and shifting time and playing with that, I think is sort of perfected in this film. So, you know, war film, we watch three different war stories I guess that collide eventually. One of them is extremely short, one of them is a bit longer, one of them is quite long, but
you'll be watching them intermixed and into played. And you know, Mike Nichols has spoken about time as being one of the key things that you have to contend with when you're making I don't know any sort of art form that like a book or a film or something that goes for a while, you know, not like a painting
on a wall. You have to contend with time and how you play with time, and Mike Nichols has has talked about that quite a bit, and that is you know, Christopher clearly Christopher Nolan's obsession if you see any of his films, and I think Dunkirk is the one that perfects it, that just really really gets it. And the performance is in it are just extraordinary as well, because everyone has these sort of bite size performances, like it's almost like every character's a cameo the way that it
sort of interplays together with a few exceptions. So yeah, I just I love it so much.
And sometimes when you talk about nonlinear time in films, it's easy enough to you know, they begin at the end and then they kind of yet blah blah blah. But when with dunk Kirk, I remember trying to explain how the time thing works, and somebody else had also seen the picture and they couldn't quite articulate it exactly what he's done. And then somebody that said, if you just watch it, you're in the hands of a master. It will actually make sense, like it makes less sense
when you explain it. Yes, exactly what he's done with the time but done. But when you watch it and you let it wash over you and you love it. And it's also of course based on such an extraordinary moment. I mean, the Nazis were Germany was about to take Great Britain and it's there's a great doco just released on Netflix which is from the Front. I remember I think they did because I think last time I was
in England, I didn't feel that way. Yeah, they had sausages on the menu, so I'm thinking they must have taken over. This doco is all vision taken from planes and the ships and tanks, you know, ally side and
it's and it's all colorized. It's been restored, and I've watched quite a few word two docos, but this was one of the it's one of that I'm not through it all, but it's one of the really it really does put you in there, and they've got some great vision from Dunkirk as well, and it's it just reminded me of as much as I knew when I was watching the film that what was at stake, You kind of go Germany really had this really was the last
if they did take the UK. Yeah, everyone was fucked, yes, yes, and it was basically this almost the Royal Air Force, you know, in Britain. And then the community really yeah, likes it sounds like a bad eighties film. The community are coming together, we can beat the villain. That's actually what happened.
Well, that exactly, and that's kind of part of it too, is like that it's got a bit of that cinema language of everyone getting on the boats and the flotilla of fishing vessels. Yeah, that head out and you know, yeah, and it's also beautiful as a film, like he's you know, he always shoots in imax and so it's it's stunning. It's like it's a very filmy film, and you know, like there's less and less of that these days. I think, well everybody thinks.
So.
I think it's got the shot too of that Tom Hardy on the beach and the bombs are coming. I think Quentin Tarantinia I said it's the best shot ever in the history of the.
And when the planes on fire, Yeah, that shot at the end, and like I mean, and the opening as well as we're just in the streets. Yeah, yeah, you know, and there's like leaflets falling in like a couple of gunshots, and even the entry to the story, which is so different. All that footage is so different to like the rest of the film. I just it's perfection and end that it's under ninety minutes. Yeah, yeah, it's like you didn't need longer. No, it's it's yeah, we wanted to say
some film stock for Oppenheimer. Yeah, he knew what was coming. He's paying for all of that on his own dime.
I think, let's stay in World War two, Got a Jojo Rabbit, which is again, those two films show you how you can tackle similar worlds and being from completely different perspectives. Tiger with Tit does a great job with here with Scull at your Hansen and it's a it's a great film.
Yeah, and it's it's again one that I go back and watch a lot, and I think a lot of my apologies, a lot of the ones that I skipped over, a sort of more in this world I do. I love films that announce that they're films. I guess, like yeah, like they're not trying to pretend you're not trying to absorb you into world. They constantly remind you, yes.
It's a cinema Verriita. This is like this is you're watching a piece of art and you watch a story.
Like bas Lermann was a director that I loved growing up, and like I really loved Muloan Bruges growing up, which I now realize is a mistake, but at the time I was like, this is an incredible world. Like this world building. I guess, yes, and so Jojo Rabbitt, I
guess is sort of in that sphere too. But to sort of make essentially a kid's film and that just gets as poignant as it does when The Red Shoes Come Back is just it's such a moving film, and you know at that moment in particular, you know that that is the whole film.
It's just in that.
But it's very careful with its subject matter. Two and also Takowa, to get those performances out of the kids is to.
Get those performances and then to two al So, I mean to get the film up to actually have a whole Wood studio go, yeah, we're gonna we're going to back this film where you play Hitler. Yeah, I think I hadn't to speak about it recently, he said he did offer it like it wasn't necessarily like he was like, I'm definitely playing Hitler. I think I think the shim
they crept me from wrong. I think they said you said you need to play yeah, which which does give it a different feel, and I think the right kind of feel him, you know, being who he is, as opposed to playing a you know, a white guy who looks a bit like Hitler playing Hitler, you know, which I'm not sure how many whit guys would have put up their hand for that role. But yeah, it's it's a it's a great one.
You sort of hope that because he directed it as well, obviously, so he sort of hope that he's not method.
How far are you prepared to take it? Tiger? And based on a book that I don't think was particularly popular or did particularly well.
I think his mum read the book to him, to him, Yeah, yeah, his mum gave him the book. I think I'm going to make of Yeah, but it's but the book doesn't have a fake Hitler. No, it doesn't have like a childhood dream Hitler. That's all that's Tiger's added that, Yeah, which I think if you're the author of the book, you would watch that film and.
Be like, I don't.
I don't remember.
Yeah, it was like reading with the cast announcements. Yeah, Hitler, I should have I should have read the contract, always read thes and sees that the part of the great Martin Scorsese and again pairing with good friendly Knowded DiCaprio based on Infernal Affairs, which we covered he with Michael Hing And yes, I'm trying to think of I think we've done it, the part of the such but we spoke about it the part of in that podcast obviously, Yes, yes, I have. I saw it, the part before I saw
in Frontal Affairs. It was it was quite a few years after to the point where I'd kind of forgotten what happens, I think because it's such an amazing kind of and with the twist and turns and how it all happens. So it was like watching it again and enjoying it again. But yeah, why do you love it? The part of so much obviously ripping cast. By the way, for those who haven't seen it, it's like almost the
Outsider's cast of twenty wait or whatever. It was made so it's got Leonard DiCaprio's got Matt Damon, Alec Bordwin, Jack Nicholson.
Yeah, and it's it's like on the other end of Jack Nicholson's career, really, like we were about to talk about the start of his career and there's like, there's very there's similar even it's two completely different roles. Obviously, one is a you know, college dude obsessed with sex and the other is a criminal mastermind or maybe not, but he's sort of got a bit of the similarity in the characters, that similar sort of sudden explosiveness. Yeah, that sort of brood that can be let go at
a certain point, which is really exciting to watch. It has been exciting to watch his whole career, I guess. But I think the reason I like it is again is like it's it's one of my favorite scor s Aces films. And I really like Matt Scorsese and I really like Takawa, and I really like Chris Nolan and Mike Nichols, and I think, like this is why it's been so hard to pick a fir like I sort of more like bas Lehrman generally, even though he's made some errors.
You know, But like I really says, I, I stumble upon this sometimes where you go, I can't believe I'm even critiquing Martin Steven Spielberg.
Third, But I like, you know, the other the apologies that are on my list of like Quentin Tarantino film and it was Anderson film. And it's sort of like I'd really like these film directors who like, over the course of their career really work on their like their practice, you know, in the way that a musician, you know, works on their instruments and sort of gets better and better and better at it. And then like the films that are on my list here are like probably my
favorite ones from each of those directors. But it's really more I think what I really enjoy is like getting into a director and everything that they've made. And so I think that depart That Departed is a really great modern Martin scots A film, yep, the Obvious Ones, Good Fellas and things like that.
But this, I don't know.
I think maybe because it came out in my time, like I could watch it. I wasn't like watching something from history.
I could.
I could go and watch it and see it and so and it's similar, and I think to Dunkirk, consider or I'll just go back and watch it again and see it again. And it's more difficult. It's quite long, but I'll just drop into any scene. I'll just skip forward and just start watching from the middle, or start watching anywhere.
Did it need the rat at the end? I there's a couple of films and I do really like The Departed. The rat kind of calling out at the end was like, that's felt heavy handed. It was such a because it was such a great film, and Sammy Swisson turns and and then we know, we know that exactly, we know that, and it just felt Martin to shoot it or Marty and then the colin the master sometimes for say yeah, and then it survives, survives the editing process. I mean,
you know, it's not you forgive it. It's sometimes when when last shots of a film kind of makes you go, like licorice pizza are really like from Wes Anderson and without going into that film, there's the last shot. What are saying, Where's Where's west? Somebody should check it? Where somebody should check Where's AND's middle name is Paul or Thomas or Thomas Lequae Peach I really liked. And there's this a final moment in the film that I thought
kind of contradicted. I think what I was thinking them was kind of about.
Yeah, and like more more recent watch Saltburn the other Day, which I loved, and again towards the end there's there's, in my opinion, too much detail, like we don't need to know, you don't need to try. We we know, yes, yes, yes, we're with you.
You've you've drawn.
These things together well enough. You do not need to flash back to the moment when and show exactly what happened. Yes, and you know it's like, oh, it's sort of is just let down, like you've you've, you've taken us with you already. Trust yourself almost, That's my view. I think trust yourself.
Well, particularly when you were talking about like masters in the way of cinema and storytelling, which again you know you feeling it's self conscious kind of questioning their choices. But as movie fans, where you pay, you pay ticket, you get to say what you like. So yes, okay, let's get into the film. We are here to talk about today. Some people you can tell about right away.
Most girls I talked to us like respe eyes from foreign countries, and we're speaking in code. Everything means something else. Like I say, would you like to take a walk? And it means something else? And she says I can. I've got a French test tomorrow and it means something else.
And you say I'll come over and help you study, and it means something else.
You're very shocked.
I like that, and that means something else.
You're too shock? Does that bother you? It interests me?
Is that more code? We'd be good together.
I'm dating your best friend. He won't mind. How do you know?
I won't tell him?
What if I mind?
You wanna go out Friday?
I'm seeing Sunday.
Saturday, I have a date. Sunday. I'm seeing my folks.
Where do they live?
Newton?
Sunday night.
I'll be too tired.
I'll help you get over your folks.
How about it, Susan?
What are you so afraid of?
Not you?
Karen Nicholson? Did you enjoy Mike Nichols from nineteen seventy one, written by Jules Feiffer, starring Jack Nicholson, Go f Uncle Kandlisberger and then Margaret? Did you enjoy cannor knowledge? Yes? Straight out. Yes, great film. It's it's like, like I said before, it feels like I've forgotten classic. I can understand it would be a divisive film and not everyone would enjoy it if they're not prepared to sit in
these uncomfortable moments. Not in the male gaze. It's very you know, Mike Nichols, it's one of the criticism he sometimes gets these films are through the male gaze. But there's a lot of truth.
Yes, and it's not you know this, it's certainly in this film. It's not celebrating the male game.
No, this is and this is the thing I think when people might watch it and maybe turn it off because a it's just men ogling, it's like they the end is not pretty for these men exactly. Jules farf Of, the guy who wrote it, said that this film is about heterosexual men not liking women. And I think that's a pretty fascinating premise that they begin with.
Yeah, I mean, I think that that grab that you played there is pretty much the thesis of the film there. It's sort of everything that this film about is kind of in there that no one's saying what they mean, you know, And that's whether they probably the only time in the film is actually voice that everything means something different. But for the rest of the film, that's exact, that's precisely what's happening. You're you've got to decode like every
single line in this film. That and then also that the chase of women who do not want this, yeah, which is in that as well, the assistance and the disregard for the friendship in there as well, like that particular grab is like that's the whole, that's everything.
Yeah, but also women like the cannis Bergen who plays Susan and everyone's extraordinary. I think in this I'm really surprised that go fuck I lot get more work. It makes a few more films. But I thought he was
really good in this. Yeah, like a pretty like he's a likable character who does some pretty unlikable things in the end, you know, like the lack of evolution in these men is one of the startling things, and the repetition he never learns, never learned, always blaming others, and Cannisbergen that she's being manipulated by Jonathan because he's saying, you need to tell Sandy about what's going on here.
He's no intention of telling it. So she's been manipulated, but you never feel quite she's a victim of him in a way, because she does she has some agency in this. She is a a participant in this, Like when they make out to use the old parlancer and then there's a beautiful dissolve by the way that goes into the footpath, and then you have Sonny and Jonathan walking down. He's telling him what have happened? And what are you going to do with your hand? What are
you gonna do with the other hand? And he's like, you said that, you said that, and then she ended up giving him a hand job, and the cut to Jonathan on the phone immediately and then you know, and asking for the same thing, asking for the same thing. Yeah, has never seen her, Yeah, so did see her at the mixer. By the way, the mixer is. I had to look it up because I need to notice term and pre At this time ivy Lea colleges were same sex. So I think it was the mid to late eighty seventies.
They became co ed, so they would organize your sister schools, these these kind of formals, if you like, and so that was called a mixer. So he's seen her there, but no, it has not spoken to her, and which is I think a key detail. He has not spoken.
It's just all about the he's given her away. Yeah, yes, like he says to Sandy, I'll give her to you. Yes, not that he's never spoken to her. He doesn't know this person, he never laid eyes on her before. Yes, she's not he's not his to give away. Yes, And then he gives it to the man who can't actually do it like yeah. I mean, it's a brilliant staged moment where he walks over and he just hangs and he's just he can't get the words out, and he goes back and then he you know, he goes back again.
He's about a bail, and then it's it's Susan who actually breaks the ice.
Yeah. And even when they have that phone call where they finally call it quits. I think it's I'm sure it must have been a choice. Well, it would have been a choice, no doubt that she's the one who hangs up. I guess I'm saying she's not the victim in the end, like she does. It's her choice to hang up. It's a version of that scene where it's Jonathan who hangs up in no face almost and and she's that sobbing, you know, but she's.
Yeah, doesn't do that. And I think like the women in the film do seem to have some agency? Is it Louise at the end? Is that the name of the character who is Garfuncle sort of later in life partner, Yes, who arrives at Jonathan's house and is traded essentially by them in the kitchen. So the two boys in the kitchen are like basically trading their partner, trading their girlfriends, like, well, you sleep with her and I sleep with her, which
is again not something that they can give away. When Cindy does leave, she says, you come around on your own, like, and I can make that decision for me, yes, but you two don't get to make that decision. So there is there's sort of like the people who have agency are actually the women in here, and that the people who are trapped in the cycle of the men, Yes, you know, trapped in that world going round and round and round.
Well, they're trapped in the male almost a stereotype, aren't they are? Like they they think they had this juvenile opinion or thoughts on what a man and female relationship look like, and they don't. They just don't learn, they don't adapt like I'm sure as kids we thought about what, you know, a male a female relationship, you know, and a male male and a male female, and then you kind of get into one of those relationships and you realize, oh, this is not what I thought. I'm gonna like this.
It's more complicated than I thought. There's more new ones involved, and I need to learn, I need to grow within this relationship. They don't do any of that, yea. So it's it's it's fascinating. This is early Jack Nicholson. What's your take. Obviously he's one of the you know, I think Mike Nichols called him Jules Fifer was concerned about him. He couldn't quite see him. I think originally they were two Jewish guys because written by a Jewish guy, directed
by a Jewish guy. They they were going through that lens and he was concerned that Nicholson wasn't Jewish. And Mike Nichols said, this guy's the next Brando. He's probably a pass Brando.
Yeah, And I think I was reading that Mike Nichols had watched a pre release tape of Easy Rider, right, and had seen him and so that's he's in it, that's the that's who we're getting. So that wasn't even out yet when Nicholson booked this role. I think you can see why Mike Nichols would have done that. Like, I mean, he's just so he's so fresh as well. Yeah, you know, he's so because this is like early days,
so he's got a lot to prove too. But then I wonder if he'd done didn't he come from television or stage or something, because generally they all have you.
Know, whenever I look at the IMDb, they've always done a lot more television. It's like they I think people get I'm not sure if Timothy Shallamay would have done it as much television and work before he went to the movies. You know, I think he was, you know, taking pretty quickly and is I think he's amazing.
But he must have he must have had some experience because otherwise Mike Nichols just cast two people with no experience. Because Art Garfuncle's only other film was Catch twenty two,
Mike Nichols's previous picture where he had a very small role. Yeah, but he was like, this guy looks sort of venomous, even though he's a sweet he sort of looks sweet, but then there's something sort of evil about his appearance in some way, there's something off about this guy, Like he look it looks like you can trust him, but then can you kind of like, but I think I think that's pretty much the reason that he cast Art Garfuncle with no acting experience for like one of the
key roles in a two hander. Essentially yeah, but then I guess yeah, So Jack Nicholson really does sort of carry it a lot in that in his sort of charisma and pushes the film along with his confidence.
And watching it now is potentially a little bit of a different experience in regards to Jack Nicholson, because we kind of we know Jack. He'm a famous womanizer, and there's always kind of there's that through films. You know, it's in Chinatown, you know, it's in a lot of his films.
So sort of established here, but we look at like we're looking, well that's how it started.
Yeah, So where golf Uncle does have a sweetness about him, and even when they're lying in bed and Niggason has his shirt off and and Sonny is in full pajamas, you know, like they're like they do Sandy Sandy, Sandy, Sandy, Sorry, apologies to apologies to Sunny from Greece, the last thing about you right now. But I think it's also in the casting. They do a good job of saying there are two snakes in the grassy, but there one is the you know, the daddy snake, and he's leading the
other snake. Yeah, exactly to these situations.
But then Garfunks's character is like just as bad in his own way.
Like hes like it's interesting that you do not because it is about two men, like he's Nichols. He's not trying to tell a story on equal footing about the women's side of this, Like you don't see Candiesberg And even though he's she's married to uncle for not the rest of the movie, but he flips like again, you never see her again. And he's telling Jonathan. Sandy's telling Jonathan how well the marriage is going. We do our things. We like to read books aloud. And then he's like,
do you want to get laid? Yeah, and then he's we've Cindy all of a sudden.
Yeah exactly, And because he never sees her again, Yeah, because we're seeing it from the point of view of these characters. Yeah, once he doesn't see her again. Yeah, so nother do we Yeah, like you know, just deleted from his life, deleted from our viewing.
Yeah, you know. And it's fascinating how Sandy does. He's susceptible to being influenced, Like he just adopts whatever the you know, philosophies are whoever he's having sex with at that time. Yeah, you know, I'm all in. So he wanted to read more because because Susan was well read. And then you know, with Cindy, he's he's free, now he's leaving, he's living life. This is how he should be. And then later on he's like got the mustache and I think in that of that strack suit, and you know,
we don't really get to know. I think it's Carol Kaine's character as much. But yeah, he's very susceptible to being influenced.
It's just whatever, whatever they're looking at. And Mike Nichols tries to do that to us as well with Anne Margaret, you know, first of all by casting and Margaret in that role.
Yeah, so let's talk a little bit and Margaret. As far as before this, she was not taken seriously as an actor, like I think she was in Europe making kind of kind of B grade action films.
Yes, yeah, I mean I think her like we we get to talk about her tits a lot in this film in that way, the right a mantle or maybe just under a little nurse slightly slightly under. It's it's slightly more than we see them, but but it is it's almost level begging there because and that's I think who she was in these other pictures that she was making as well. Right, she's like, you know, sort of type cast, I guess, yes. And then the two Flipper.
Yes, the term that would be used back then would be she was a sex pot, which is an awful term when you think about it, but very you know, very much lobsious and sexy and and those kind of actors were not taken seriously really at all, like Kate, like Racker Welsh may have liked, and she was considered I think I offered this role I think, and knocked
it back and then later said the name Margaret. Actually she could never have done the kind of delimited performance that and Margaret did because it is a stunning performance one without necessarily knowing at the time, but she is in these two handed scenes with a young actor who had become they may be the greatest actor of his generation and she and she's holding her.
Own absolutely yeah, and you know, and sort of cast I think to distract us as an audience, you know, like to fall into the same trap, to become Jack Nicholson character oling this woman in all her beauty and to focus on that and to sort of be like wow, you know, to sort of become this male gaze.
A little bit.
And obviously that is completely flipped and exposed when you know she's discovered overdosing and you know, like this is it's yeah, it becomes so awful, and but we've all just been enamored. So I think, like to be cast as a sort of trick, yeah, and then reveal that performance behind it, you know, as we get closer and closer and closer to falling off that cliff. Is probably why she was nominated for the Oscar and won the
Golden Globe. And the first time we see Bobby with the character's name is there on a date she's the breasts are on, you know, are on show that you know, so we know, like you know that it's chili, Yeah, chillis, but we know.
It's such a shot in Vancouver.
I think.
We know we know that Jonathan is. He has stated from the app that those voiceovers at the start with the conversation they're having, he's all about the breast, you know, and the legs and it's all physical with him. So they did need the cast a, you know, a physical specimen, you know, like somebody who was well put together to use,
well built, well built, that's right. And Jane Fonder I think not the roll back because she said, well, I'm not built the way this characters written, and you know, and I think she had other other reason why she didn't want to do what she went under to do clute, which she won the Oscar for that she beat and Margaret in that Oscar race. But I you see her and she's looking stunning. She's obviously a beautiful woman, and
Jonathan's actually enamored. He she completely has his attention. But they're only like revolving kind of restaurant which is kind of floating. Well, Frank Sinacher's Dreams plays in the restaurant, so it is so beautifully done. And then in the car that they're flirting about the idea of marriage and all that, and it's just it's very sexy. And then they get home and that you know, they they have sex and then it's you know, it's all happy days for a little while.
Yeah, Yeah, And that happens a couple of times actually, where the world is sort of floating behind the women that we're looking at, even even at the end with the very final woman that Jonathan's got, which is a sex worker. But even as we drop into his point of view and looking straight ahead at maybe that's Louise
that the name of that character. Anyway, the wallpaper behind is just slowly moving and so the world's moving around constantly the only thing these men are looking at, yeah, like through the whole picture, like relentlessly, and.
It's these great well, actually, let's let's talk about these close up, because this is what Jules Fiffer thought this was going to be a play. He gave to Mike Nichols, the director's a play, and Mike Nichols said, no, I want to see these characters. I want to see them up close. I want to see their you know, their brains were kind of working behind their words. And yeah, those close ups with I think they all get one. Well, well, certainly Jonathan and Sandy change with the grease character in
your head. It's a living they get their their close up, and Susan gets one. Susan gets wonder others. Yes, there's also those shots where they just stay on the character and that's an extraordinary, I think performance by Cannicebergen. And I think also Jonathan gets one, but she's participating in this conversation and she's laughing.
And I think, like, you know, we're talking earlier about how you can sometimes tell it's to play when you're watching a film, you can be like, oh, this started as a play, or this is meant to be on stage. And this is sort of a weird version of that, I think, where you can tell it's written as a play, except the way that it's shot, it could never be your play because we focus on the people who aren't
talking constantly. These conversations we're talking about earlier as well, with Jonathan and Sandy walking talking about well, I like the tits and I like the legs, and it's got to be this and it's got to be that. Is these extreme wides, extreme wide shots of them walking down pathways and in the distance, and eventually they get to us towards the end of a shot, so we can place them in the scene. But essentially we're not looking
at them. We're forced to listen to this language. And then when we look at it, you know, we got a close up of Susan and we're just she's not talking for ages. We're just listening to these two men again, go back and forth, back and forth, and this is time and time again, where even the opening of the picture they talk for a very long time over the titles where we don't get to see them for ages. We first we have to listen to them talk about breasts and legs and butts, and it just is again
and again and again. So it's sort of this play that you can't do that on a stage because you just have the just walk off the wings, like we've got to watch something, and so we watch the trees blow or we watch the people who are listening.
Yeah, and one of the really strong choices I think they make is and this is I guess credit the Jules Pfeiffer who wrote it, that you think like there's a version of this film, of course, where the drama comes from the fact that Sandy finds out that Jonathan went behind his back and dated Susan, but we never
find out like that. I love when writers directors make strong choices where you're going to go, oh, well, that's the obvious place to go find that and everything blows up, but not once does he find out.
Towards the end, there's a glimmer it does, and then so the question then becomes what does he do with it? Because that's so much later in life. We're watching the Ballbuster's parade that Jonathan's put together.
Have you ever spliced the film together of ex loves Conquests? Maybe twice? Mine's a short film rop first, and so.
Jonathan has put like a slide show like he's got back from travels in Southeast Asia.
Did you think the film finished? Because I did too, Yeah, okay.
Yep, some credits and I was like, did he this is a documentary because his name pops up directed by But in there he makes the mistake. He accidentally puts Susan in when he's clicking through its clicking through all the women that he's slept with, kissed or everything going back to when he was twelve. He's kept a record
of every single one. Myrtle is not in there, which was the name of the character that he'd created, who was actually Susan to tell Sandy, you know I've slept with Myrtle or you can't meet her yet.
It's actually Susan. So Myrtle's not in there. Susan is.
And he flicks over it very quickly and says, oh, that's a mistake. Hit and then hits the next one straight away, and we just get two shots of like Funkle looking across, looking across the first time, and then he keeps moving on and he looks again, and then
he leaves in silence. Yes, and his partner at the time, who's the one that we don't really get to meet very much, she leaves because she's so disgusted by what she's seen, and he follows, perhaps in support, But then the way he looks back from the front door is like a penny's dropped, but he doesn't mention it. And they catch up later. Yeah, like, and so it's not addressed.
Yes, I'm missing I'm gonna look scene again. They kind of see what garf Uncle does in that moment where Susan pops up. And what's great about it It works either way. If you missed it, that's fine because I think one of the you know, it's also Sandy's saying that Jonathan silently with a look, this is sad, this is he brought us over here for this, this is and he's been Jonathan's being the king in Sandy's eyes.
He's lapped up all his advice. And maybe there's a bit of regret in like, I've spit my life following your lead and yeah, and this is what has become.
Yeah, and then but then another reading of it could be that, well you got me on that one, but it's all part of the play. And then when they're walking down the street after that together and you know, they just they're just trapped forever in their own versions of this awfulness.
Yeah, we get to the end, which is Jonathan with this sex worker and they've got their routine done. In fact, when she deviates slightly from the routine, he explodes and then they have to reset and do it again one again. I missed the moving kind of wall paper behind her, but great performance by that actress. I apologize. I'll look her up actually right now. But again I think just I was wondering how they were going to end where this was going to end up, and for it to base.
The way I saw it is Jonathan is in this loop now and he's not getting out of his the traps of his ears and upsetting for himself. He's not escaping from yeah, exactly.
And you know, earlier on in the picture we see an ice skater and a man chasing around the ice skater. They comment like, look at that old guy trying to chase that ice skater. And then the very last thing of the picture is an ice skater.
Again, Yes, at one point, did you ever think that that ice skater possibly was Bobby. I did have that thought. I don't think it is, but I did go like she had a lot of the same physical you know.
She's certainly built the way that Jonathan is attracted to. But I see I see that at the end by coming back to the ice skaters, like, well that's Jonathan.
Now, he's that old man.
Now he's just following her around and will never stop looking at this sort of pirouetting.
I think you're right, Rita Marino was the It's worth pointing that out because I think she was.
Yeah, she's in it for fifteen seconds. You could have got nominated for Best Support. Incredible, really good, really good.
But let's have a listen to this fight scene between Jack Nicholson and Margaret. No, this is probably one of the moments of the picture. Yeah, and this is this is I guess where again? And Margaret holds her own and this is Jack in full flight. This is, you know, maybe one of the first times we see Yeah, built his career off the handle. Yeah, get a job.
I don't want a job. Want you have taken by me.
Get out of the house, do something useful.
Goddamn it.
You wouldn't let me work when I wanted to. That was a year ago, ten to every time you're calling I'm that home, look.
Sister, I'm out there in the jungle eight hours a day.
You wouldn't even let me canvas for Kennedy. You want a job, I got a.
Job for you.
Fix up this pig sty.
You get a pretty goddamn good salary for testing out this bed all day. You want an extra fifty dollars a week, Try vacuuming. You want an extra hundred make this goddamn bed. Try Holy some goddamn windows. That's why you can't stand up in here. The goddamn place smells.
Like a coffin.
Oh you don't need me. Why do you let yourself in for this kind of abuse?
Walk out? Leave me?
Please leave me, God's sake, I'd almost marry if you leave me. Colored abuse. You don't know what I'm used to. Oh you're carrying on.
I mean there's a great dialogue. I mean, I'll almost marry you if you left me. I mean, it's just it's just brilliant. But it just really does like this is, this is, This film is as relevant today as it wasn't not seventy one, because you just devastating. It's depressing, it's completely depressing. You do ask yourself the question why do people stay in these relationships?
You know?
And I don't have the answers, but it does kind of go, yeah, why and both parties, both parties can leave. But there's no there's obviously some violence coming from Jonathan now with the yelling and the screaming, but you kind.
Of go asking things of her that he won't allow her to do.
Yes, like basically tells her to quit her job, and then questions how she spends her time when you've already demanded basically that she leaves her to get a job. Yeah. Yeah, and it's a successful job. She was doing very well. She was happy. I mean, she was happy, and that's the tragedy. She was happy when she met him and now she's and.
The tragedy dialogue there of you call this abuse, Yeah, you know, like just a tiny window open to like the history and so.
The feeling that she's been through this and when you think back at that first date, she would have hoping that this was going to be different this time, and it's become maybe a cycle for her, but extraordinary dialogue. There are a few things that I just wanted to and I'm just going to jump around some of the just shots and by the great Mike Nichols. The dance sequence is great when they're they don't know who's they never find out. We suspect maybe they yes, but at
the time they don't know. And there's a great dance sequence where she's dancing, Susan's dancing with Sandy and then all of a sudden it switches to there's a little twirl and all of a sudden she's dancing with Jonathan. Actually, I think I must have looked down and make a night. I looked up it was Jonathan. I thought I actually rewound. I was like I was going to skip back to to that.
It's beautifully done sort of similar one to that is or maybe this is on your list as well. But when they're both dating Susan to begin with, there's a sort of a back and forth basically with who's going to sleep with her first, that even though Sandy doesn't know that Jonathan's dating, and that's kind of what's being presented to us. And then when the sex scene arrives to begin with, we don't know who it is exactly.
For ages, we don't know until Jonathan rolls off, and then it's revealed who won, and it's like it's it's this awful it's being presented as this awful competition. We become complicit as we want to find out. We're sitting there wanting to find out who who is that is that who's who's won?
Yeah, yeah, and and and that it was the next show I wanted to bring up. And that's beautifully put because even Susan's face is kind of partially covered as well. It's almost the only thing you can see. In fact, at first, I was like, are in the car? Yeah, I was watching my covert on the ground somewhere. I mean the fact that there were so many up close. It is all kind of shot up in close, like the world they are really in their heads. And then you know, there's very like I said, there, that's a
good point you made before. There's wide shots where they're just they're doing that way men talk with each other. But yeah, a lot of it is like really close, like there's no establishing shot of this is well, you know, no, he's not interested in that. Yeah, there's in great lines as well.
That's that that shot is also like a reaction shot, even though no one's actually talking in that one. You know, we talked about before about all these shots where everyone's talking back and forth and we're focused on the listener. That's sort of what's happening in that shot too. She's listening in a way. This is happening to her. Yeah, she's like, you do not get the sense that she's enjoying this all that much?
No, No, well, because I think she's also it's the first time.
I think, yeah, so again it's another version even though there's nothing there's no dialogue, but it's another version of that same shot of like, you know, we're not looking at the the active participant, we're looking at the listener. We're looking at the person that it's happening.
To, and pretty repulsive, like when you when you really think about it. Because the next scene I think is when jack Jonathan in the pool celebrating and he's celebrating with supposedly say best friend, and it's like, what was your game plan? Yeah, yeah, it's kind of staggering.
Then Standy ends up celebrating with him back like he's so happy for him too, Yeah, not realizing what's actually happened to you.
There's a great line, you can't make fucking your life's work. I thought that was it's a very good line. Also, when Bobby brings up the idea of getting married initially before everything has turned pear shaped, I think Jackson's got a shower and he's got a towel and he sits down these I thought directions very funny. Is for about a minute, it's just like it sounds, it sounds very good. Yeah it's good. Yeah, well it's yeah, it's a very good idea. Let's let's just see goes on a quite a while.
What's that He's like, yeah, yeah, like that energy for a very long time because we.
Want to be sure.
Yeah yeah, there's also that why eyes wide open?
We want to? Is that it we want to?
We want to we want to make sure we're seeing it.
With clear eyes. Yeah that's right. Yeah, it's so good. Do you think he is Jonathan is in love with Susan or is it is it still? Does he wants to beat I think Andy.
I think it's just yeah, got to beeat Sandy and the easiest target, I think, because it's all been bravado up unto then I'll give it to you. And then he finds out that Sandy got a hand job, it's like, oh, well, maybe should do that for me. Yeah, it's I think it's as simple as that. Yeah, not in love, and there's no love there's.
At the moment because he it's just a you know, unique kind of I've never seen it in the film before where Sandy says, you know, he's she's amazing and she can read my thoughts and she tells me these thoughts before I've ever had these thoughts. And then Jonathan goes to her and he demands that she tell him. He's thought, why aren't you doing this to me?
Well?
Why why? Why did I get this tell? I'm thinking, Yeah, yeah, because Susan does have this thing going on where she both men are serving needs for her or desires for her in a way. The intellectual or the sensitivity. I'm not sure if Sandy's giving her is intellectually inspiring her, but there's a sensitivity I think that she's drawn to. But as a I think as a lover, as you know, as a you know, she can see that Jonathan is
offering more. I mean when Sandy, when they're lying in the bed, so fucking Sandy, take your tie off, mate. And there is there's a lot of coercing in this film that is obviously meant to be uncomfortable, but we have, like we said, these men do not get away with it. It's uncomfortable. But like I said, I think some subject matters can be triggering for people. But if the characters get their come up, and that's what maddens in the end, I.
Think, yeah, and they're living the worst possible life.
Yeah, some fun facts before we wrap up. I thank you this podcast comes with homework. We're already doing your homework, actually.
Already and it's my homework really has a test. Yeah, so it's great, it's great.
Is there is there another Mike Nichols film that you would like, say, if you haven't seen it, see this may be outside of the graduate?
Yeah, I was going to say outside the graduate.
I think Virginia Who's afraid of Virginia? Woof?
Which is I think to watch that and go this is his first picture. Yeah, this is his first film, and think about that with Burt Reynolds and Elizabeth Taylor yeah, no less yeah, yeah, and it's just yeah, it's incredible.
Yeah, so that one.
And I think it's similar to knon Knowledge actually that people know. Oh that's oh that's one of those good films that I haven't seen. Yes, and it is really worth as is this like going and watching.
It because I have not seen it. The first I heard of Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolf the line in Cheers, which I loved growing up, in which Frasier. Yeah, I said, oh, we've turned into Who's Afraid of Seeing? From Who's afraid of Virginia welf and I got a big laugh and I was like, yeah, don't get it. So I did look forward watching that film. The tagline for Carlin Knowledge when it came out in ninety to every one, obviously it's r rated like this, They had to it broke down.
Yeah, it was outlawed in like Georgia and in Ireland.
It wasn't released until nineteen and eighty nine, years after it was released in cinemas. The tagline was the US Supreme Court has ruled that Carlin Knowledge is not obscene. See it now? It's very clever. Yeah, yeah, it's great. The fight scene between Jack when we listened to and Margaret took a week to shoot and both had lost their voices by the end of it. This movie also has the honor of having the first condom on screen.
Well, and then I but I saw an interview with Mike Nichols where he said there's one in the graduate just no one noticed.
Ah, yeah, my Nicholas just trumping himself. Yeah, but Mike Nichol certainly obsessed. Yeah. Yes. And also the first sea bomb. Oh really yeah, yes, it's well placed. It is well placed. Yes, And that's actually I think we've covered the rest of our fun facts within our conversation, which is always good mate. Thank you so much, Joy, And from a Melbourne based comedian, I want to thank you and congratulate you on Comedy Republic.
It is an extraordinary venue. It is the coolest comedy club in Australia and no doubt one of the best in the world. You have built a purpose built comedy club and it is an extraordinary place to go whether you're going to see a show. And were comedians during the comedy Festival, that's now the place where you go after you've done your show and you hang Yes, thank you and well done on that my pleasure. The city seems like it needed it. And I wasn't busy during
a pandemic. I released a travel book during the pandemic, so I mean, but that was way less.
You know.
I still made some money. I still paid to do it, but no extraordinary and great stuff mate, And yeah, thanks thanks for hanging out and chatting Mike Nichols with me pleasure, absolute joy anytime. Yes, that was Karen Nicholson. What a fun, funny, generous informed man he is. And yeah, I really enjoyed that was a movie I hadn't seen. I like it both ways. I like it when I have seen the movie and I love the movie, and I'm excited by a guest watching for the first time, but I equally
love when I'm discovering it for the first time. And Carl and Knowledge was a film that had been on my radar for many years, not necessarily the top of my radar, but yeah, certainly anything involving Mike Nichols had to be gotten to at some point. And Guard Funkel, he was good surprising him, act some more fun movie. Jack. There'll be more Jack. We haven't done five easy pieces yet. The last detail will get to very keen to get to that one, so it'll be definitely more Jack and
more than Mike Nichols. Who's afraid of Virginia Wolf. Maybe we'll get there. Thanks everyone who's listening. We have a live episode of Yasney coming up at the Melbourne International Comedy Festival. Jump on the Comedy Festival website. It's with Nick Cody. Nick Cody will be there. There'll be some other special guests as well. And the movie we are covering is Back to the Future. Back to the Future, it's a classic. It's obviously been looming large for this podcast.
Who will do it. Nick Cody has not seen it. He will step up to the plate. Nick Brisbane Radio Listeners, Melbourne Radio Listeners, Project Viewers. He's one of the best in the biz on stage as well, very funny. Man does a great podcast called mid Flight Brawl and it's an absolutely so looking forward to having Nick live on stage with special guests back to the Future at the Melbourne International Comedy Festival. Off the top of my head,
I think it's not the thirteenth, Saturday the thirteenth. Check the website and come along and yeah, happily to have a chat afterwards and have a beer. If you want to support the podcast, the best way you can do it is go to iTunes, give it a five stary rating and write a nice review. We'd love to hear your voice on this podcast. Follow the links on the page and yeah, you can leave a voice message for us about opinions, questions, anything you have about Yasni next
week on the show. Really looking forward to this one. This is a comedy star on the rise, no doubt about that. Brett Blake will be joining me on the show. Fascinating thing about Brett Blake is that he actually works not only on stage. And he's a comedian who's been at the Melbourne in Flacial Comedy Festival Gala. He was on the tourists recently. But he also works in the industry. He works in lighting. You know, he's on sets. He still works and loves it, so he will have a
genuine insight. And next week we're going to go back to the early eighties and do a comedy. Always fun to get comedians takes on comedies, and Brett Blake will be looking at the Carl Rainer directed Steve Martin Biek. I think it was his debut film, The Jerk. Yes, we will be tackling The Jerk next week on You
Ain't Seen Nothing Yet with very funny Brett Blake. Until then by for an hour and so we leave old Pete save Mancell and to our friends of the radio audience, we've been a pleasant good name.