Daina Reid and The Defiant Ones

Thank you to day Pete. Hell are you're here? Welcome to you. Ain't seen nothing yet The movie podcast where I chat to a movie lover about a classic or beloved movie they haven't quite got around to watching until now. Today's guest director Dana Reid.

All below.

I want to stay here with you.

He's the jobber.

Why snakes shucked?

Hi hail.

Could happening right suck You ain't seen nothing new.

This is a very special episode to have Dana read on today. I first you have Dana. Before I met Dana and got to know her, she was on the fantastic comedy sketch comedy show Full Frontal, back in the day when we used to do a bit more sketch comedy than we do these days. She was fantastic on Full Frontal. But I really got to know Dana when she directed. Was one of the directors on the sketch comedy show that I did called ski House, with the likes of Tom Leese and the Tripod Boys, Damian Callanan,

Hi.

My name is Dana Reed and my three favorite films Galaxy Quest, Never give Up, Never surrender, point break.

You want the ultimate, you gotta be willing to pay the ultimate price.

It's not tragic today doing what you love and die hard and you're too stone.

It's read always in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Help it because you.

And I had not seen the defiant ones until this weekend.

Come on, let's go go where tier. Let's hey for Papa.

I am the South.

I don't go side a little girl and Papa if she's still there, we get this brook.

I'll come on and then what I'm a strange colored man in white south town? How long you think before they pick me up?

Get off my back? I am married, and you know what a why I care?

Come on?

You married to me?

All right?

Joker? And here's the ring.

But I ain't going south on no honeymoon.

Now we going no through the swamp.

We go round.

It used to work at Turbmententie mail bout sixty miles and north of here, there's a train come to pick up the turbent time every day. Come out of the west end of the swamp head and cross the line to the paint makers up north in Ohio.

Now we try for that train.

How long you been in jail eight?

He is, Then, how do you know the train's still running?

I don't know. You don't know.

You asked me to go sixty miles with you and you don't even know. What do you invite me on a long walk off a short peer and I'm gonna come up with a wehead nothing doing?

Now come on, come on, damn you come on. Yes, it's a nineteen fifties America and two men chained together on a road gain escape after their carriage flips. Now, the interesting thing about these two chaps is one is what John Joker Jackson Tony Curtis in his only Oscar nominated role, and the other Noah Cullen Sidney Poitier, becoming the first African American male nominated for any Oscar of any kind for Best Male Actor, is of course black.

I have not.

Yeah. That surprises me.

I don't know why, because I'm so nimble.

You nimble. You know you're made secret River that was out in the wild. I thought maybe making secret River you may.

Have didn't any frogs.

Frogs?

Interesting? Interesting, welcome this. I feel like there's a special edition of you. Ain't seeing nothing yet. I have a unique history with you as opposed to any of the other guests we've had on in that. As I mentioned in the intro, you directed the one film that I've been had the honor of making I Love You Too, which did an incredible job at so I'm very much looking forward to chatting about the definant ones with you.

I just love how much of a movie buff you are, So this is going to be fun. Because we were so busy on I Love You Too, you don't get much time to chin wag no.

Maybe like leading into it, we kind of spoke a lot about movies that once you're kind of in the mix. I think, especially you, because directing like I've directed, you know, episodes of television before, which is you know, it's its own thing. But a movie, there's so many questions. You need to be a cross that's right. I have all the answers.

But have you seen that film nine that Nicole's in with Daniel day Lewis and Judy Densch's going you're a director? It's like yes, no, yes, no, yes no, that's all you need to do. He just answer the questions. So there is that aspect of it. There's a lot of questions, but you just have to know the answers and you but do.

You think because I've heard people say this as well when I was on my doing the TV series that I directed. It's also there's a power in like saying that you don't know sometimes absolutely because you do have. And I didn't realize maybe probably until I saw it on you with Allary Ryan, I love you too out our dop. But how much of the DOP has to say absolutely? And the support that they can.

Give you, Oh yeah, that's a really great team, you know, and having a strong team because Eller is amazing. I mean, what the beautiful pictures that we had.

In that movie and we shut that on film, so and Allery was it was a delight to watch. I mean sometimes because I was also a producer. Sometimes you looking at the clock, what's going you know, like we probably need to move now, and Allorie is like, you know, like waiting for light sometimes. You know, my image of him is like with a cup of coffee maybe in this and just looking and this, but he is looking

So yeah, and You've got so much more leeway with what we shoot on now, and you can shoot much later with much less light. So it's it's it's a really different kind of world that you're in. But that team is so important. And I hear stories about dfs and directors not getting on anything. How can that even be? I work with Bonnie Elliott a lot on the last few projects I've done, and we're very different people, but the vision is so similar, and that's that is such

Yeah. Absolutely, we'll talk about all that stuff very soon. But let's talk about your Well, let's talk about the The Finight Ones is briefly without knowing we'll get to whether you liked it or not. What did you know of the Defined Ones? Because I sent you the list like I do all of our guests, and some you know, I have in their heads already the film that they haven't seen, but I gave you the list, and the defint Ones was one that popped out.

Well, it's interesting because it's not like I don't go looking for older films. I mean, you know, when we talk about our favorite films, I've got so many of them, and I haven't listed this particular one. Some like it hot on that list, but I do love it, and so I'm kind of and Tony Curtis's performance in that is astonishing, and so I was surprised that I didn't I hadn't heard of it, and having seen it, it's really groundbreaking and really interesting. So I just thought, where

First time i'd seen it, i'd heard I'd heard of it, and I think when I was doing a little bit of a Sidney Poitier kind of you know, I watched in the heat of the night for this podcast, and then I followed that up just in my own time, watching Guess He's coming for Dinner? And I was like,

Tim Allen, it's Tim Allen, It's Sigourney Weaver, it's Alan Rickman, is it. It's not you, Gene Levy, it's Tony Shaloub.

Shaloop because it is but any mystery men, I think.

But it's a very clever comedy. And I'm also big sci fi.

I say, you're a big sci fi fan, and this is like a it's a spoof.

Yeah, so it's like you know, the tired people off Star Trek and all that sort of stuff. So it really floats my boat. And it's absolutely beautifully structured. And I'm kind of the ones I've chosen today because you get to a certain age and you've seen so many. It's very hard to pick three, and I've gone by Rewatch. So if I'm sitting at home and you're flicking through and you can't find anything, or you've had a bad day, the movies that I'll go and Rewatch And that's what

It's still probably would have been if women in comedy often doing the romance romantic comedies, you know, and sometimes even they were told potentially from a male perspective, probably not until Bridesmaids really kind of you know, smashes it.

Really, that's so true. I mean, as a woman in comedy, it's very very difficult. I mean I got told to my face by kind of friendly people men who will go, oh, chicks aren't funny. That's like, and you know, and that's that's I'm not alone in that experience. It's it there's something coming up that you always had to fight, even though you know, right next to us were Magda and Gina and Jane and that sort of stuff. And so to see that be acknowledged, you know, in that movie,

Get their heads across all these sci fi ideas, you know, planetary stuff, and then and then they can't get their idea and a leading female character.

Does not come into their brains at all. So a lot of the sci fi read is quite modern. So I think that was a really good nod to all that stuff. So I kind of loved all of that. And it's still you know, there's a Tim Allen is amazing, their relationship is amazing, and just also the British theater actor hating that he's in this science fiction show. I'm sure that that Patrick Stewart actually loves being Jean Luc Picard. But you just wonder because Alec Guinness was famous for.

The Bond all of that.

They're kind of like I'm with the interactor, there is.

Something about That's why I love Mark Hamill so much. And I got the interview him for The Last Jedi came out really, oh my god, the podcast recently, because he just understands and has become like a caretaker for you know, Star Wars, particularly the original trilogy, and has no shame or regret or embarrassment about playing Luke Skywalker and nor should he the greatest film of all time. But he really he loves being involved in it and respects the fans and it's happy to talk about it,

Oh you're so lucky of what to speak to him. I mean, he really is an extraordinary human. And I remember when, you know, the Star Wars films had kind of lulled a bit before all the reboots, and it was a bit of a where are they now kind of thing, and he wasn't doing much and he had like a collectible shop, but he was so happy and

Adam Christie, Canadian comedian, was on my podcast and he said he said Star Wars was his favorite film, you know, in his top three, And he said, anyone who says Star Wars isn't in your top three, you are lying.

Yeah, it did it really, it really really did. And yeah, the only reason I didn't say it today is because I'm kind of bored with saying it.

Yeah, no, I think, yeah, I think. I'm always fascinated by how people choose their top three. And some people it's strategic. They'll do something that's you know that their comfort films something, Yeah, but they want to do also something will be artistics, so they put that one in there, the show that there's a deeper side to them, that's.

Right, the intellectual side.

Yeah.

You see that on those letterbox interviews all the time, like, oh bullshit, I know.

I love it when people just come out and go when Harry Matt Sally, you know, Toy Story or whatever it might be, Star Wars. Yeah, that's that's what I love so just just going you said, you know, women in comedy and you you know, people were saying those things to you. That did that influence your your reasons for stepping away from performing or because you're you're so

Look, I was because I'd gone to I've done film and television at university. So the plan was because the star wars to be a director. That was my plan, always the plan. And then you know, people at university said, oh, you need to do a few acting classes if you want to be a director. So I went off and did acting classes. And then my you know, my class or audition for the acting schools, and so I did

Yeah.

Yeah, but I'm so glad I got to do it though. Like I think about that, I caught up with Sean mcrloff and Bob Franklin last week and it's just a real thrill for me to have been in that world and have those memories.

Is a real time. I mentioned in the intro that we don't really make a lot of sketch comedy anymore. There's lot of stuff online and sketch comedy groups online, I should point out, absolutely, but likely some cumor we're making How to Stay Married? Can I say to me, we need a sketch comedy show. We need a sketch comedy show, and we have, you know, fast forward into Full Frontal Comedy Company. It was a really rich time and it was, you know, the big gig, and it seemed to be everywhere and a way to.

Comment on the world around you and process it. Yeah, and you know, because I see things even now and I go, oh, we do the sketch of that, you know, in the world that is now, it really feels like there's so many opportunities to go, oh, I would do this, or we would do that, we could write that sketch.

Yeah, I feel now it's just all hot takes on Twitter, you know, and little memes that have become our sketches, which is not They can be fun, but they're not the same.

And it was it was so rigorous and physical to have to come up with an hour's worth of comedy every week. It's quite brutal. I mean, in a sense, the internet is a perfect kind of place for if you've got small snippets and you haven't got that pressure too, you know, because it's not you're not going to have every single joke is not going to hit in an hour show, whereas you can kind of distill it down on the Internet. I think my kids that's all they watch.

My bridges, you know, should be giggling the way and she's just flicking through reels. It's a thing. And so it was Ted Amory. So you learned from oh yes, under the wing.

Yeah, I mean you and what not to do?

The best part of it isn't it?

And I say that with absolute love. And I've done things, oh my god, where I've actually had because Ted would come and grab you and physically move you where he wants you in a vans like Ted, I can just tell me where you want me to. I did that myself and the other day because I was just like, we haven't enough time quick and I went, oh my god, I'm channeling Ted Hemory. I'm moving and acted.

Across the set. There's warm props.

You know, come this way, come this way, come with me.

Yeah.

So I learned a lot from being on the set, you know, with him every day, watching that happen. It's what years were they like, it's the nineties. I'm kind of losing track. But I started doing Jimoen's show probably in ninety four. Yeah, and then I think full frontal goes to oh, I don't even know ninety eight.

Because I did work experience a Channel seven and I the first day that had me filing, and somebody kind of almost Human Rights Commission came in and said, you can't be filing all day. You need to actually have him learned something. So I got to hang out for two days with Drew morphittt. They like Drew Morphitt with sport and that was great. I love that obviously, And then the last day was just sitting in at full frontal all fast forward. But that would have been ninety he ninety.

I think, yes, so that would be fuss forward, yeah, because.

I remember mag there and Jane being there and Michael Veitch, who I loved, and all those guys. But I remember ted Emory being on set and I just sat in the in the in the bleachers just kind of watching rehearsals. And I could tell then that ted Amory was somebody who he had an awa about him, and that he probably didn't suffer fools, Oh god no.

And he also had a lot of creativity himself. So if a GAG's not working and he can't find the joke in it, he'll go go upstairs with us as actors and then we come back down and he would have had the gag. He will have worked something visual out that supported supported it, so he was adding creatively to it as well all the time.

Because how important is it to have that space. I know Natalie Bailey, who directed some set up How to Stay Married and has recently made a film called Audrey. I'm not sure he sawdry, but I loved it really, really great. I think I'm available to rent on fire some now. And she was the one who said, have the time with the actors, like you allowed to clear the set and this have so basically that means everyone

They want to do their job. Yes, yeah, So you have to exactly get rid of that, have your private private blocking as they call it, and spend the time. And I always rehearse anyway, I mean we probably rehearsed on I Love You Too. And I'm always very focused on the actors because really, at the end of the day, that is all that matters. There's words and the performances and getting that right. So you want to have that just on your own, no one looking, no one rushing.

Let's talk about two films that I've certainly seen many times. Let's start with die Hard tell Me Little Watches for the first time for this podcast, and when I was watching it, I hadn't seen it for a while, and it's just it's still it's stunning. It's so good.

Yeah, and it's funny.

Yeah.

I mean that one again as a rewatch. I watched it every Christmas Eve and have been for like twenty years, twenty five years. And I won't watch it in betweens like band. So really, so we're not allowed to have a look at it. It's only on Christmas Eve. But it is so well structured, it's so amazing. And I have to say, Bonnie Badelia, there is no Bonnie Badelia now, so you know that's missus McLean right. If that film was made now, she would be hot. I'm not saying

Yes, yes, Domestaball you get the horns, Yes, that's that guy.

Such a great character actor and brings such humor to it as well. And of course there's the two Agent Johnson's and it's so funny. It's Agent John's here, no the other one. Like it's just there's so many gags in it in the middle of all this really great. Yeah, it doesn't take away from the grave situation.

I think it's a balancing act, isn't it a film that doesn't take itself too seriously, but also it makes you feel everything you're supposed to be feeling in the tension of them of the story.

That's right, and it looks a million bucks. It's at yonder BoNT Is the GOP. So it's so much about those lenses, those flares in the lenses that you just recognize when you kind of think about that film, even if you're not into knowing about that stuff, it's having an effect on you. And of course he goes on to direct Speed with Count so yeah, he was a huge part of the success of that film as well.

Lot of things you're being in prison for. Yeah, cocaine whatever, that's fine, we can deal with that. We can deal with that. But also around that time, you had these kind of you know, obviously mostly leading men Otto Sigourney Weaver kind of again stands out, and then that time with a alien, but men who lead characters and protagonists who could get hurt, you know, and Mel Gibson and

I mean, it's it's so brilliant that giving those the little details to make him so vulnerable, I mean, and also so iconic. You can wear it as a Halloween outfit, fair feet and.

Single simple att but he kind of owns it, does Yeah, he really.

Really owns it. But it is there a real team, he and his wife, you know that sort of Yeah, he's a family man, so it makes it much more so. I was never into you know, all the death Whishure, all those bloky kind of films because they're quite exclusionary, but that one, it's he's a team with his wife and she's even though it's kind of psychological, but she's rooting for him the whole time.

But it kind of makes it a Christmas movie, doesn't it. It's like, it's not Christmas. Movies aren't just about having decorations around. It's about, you know, often somebody trying to get home for Christmas. And that's exactly what McLean's trying to do.

Yeah, he's over there, he's trying to mend his marriage and it's Christmas time. And I mean that's the brilliance about that score. It's all the all the bells and all the you know, and and the bad guys are there and it's kind of winter Wonderland is kind of playing in the score in a sinister way. It's just unreal.

Yeah, there's also a feeling when I watched My Heart, it's like the Christs is great because it feels like that's when everybody has knocked off. Everyone's kind of gone, Everyone's going home to their family, and this shouldn't be happening on Christmas. Evil Christ is not which one of this, but yeah it should be. You should be with your family, so that it does add that other emotional layer. And like you said, it's is physically trying to get back obviously,

And the husband and wife realizing how much they need each other, yeah, and that they are still a team. It's so wish I should know who wrote it, Oh my god, because it's so clever about how they know what they've put up. And even with Officer Powell, you know, and he's comeback, he's got his own journey within it as well, which is, you know, he grows and grows and grows through through the film. So you've got an extra character doing that.

And that's you'd like to see movies that, you know. And I think I said this with even because I Love you too, that that Yeah, if you swung a camera on one of the extras, you know, or not maybe one of the extra but you know somebody, you know, you know, a minor character, you would still find an interesting story to tell about them. So the diehardess I did look it up, and it's not coming off the top of my head. Based on the novel Bi Roderick Thought.

So there you go, because it really is a great feat of amazing structure and writing.

Yeah, imagine novel. Johnson is Yeah, family matters, Ghostbusters, he's a good man, all right, Painte Break, Keanu Reeves, Patrick Swayze.

Well, of course it's Catherine Bigelow. He's one of my heroes. Hurt Locker and when when's the Academy Award which hardly ever happens, and happens so much more.

The first the first female director of win.

It may have been there, may have been one in the past, but it should be loads more. Yeah, it's kind of a little bit embarrassing, but yeah, so directed by her, and it's really boldly directed, like she's really gone for something. But the result is so includes you like it's it's really strong choices, but you feel like you're at home so much. I mean, there's that particular shot where Johnny Hughtah walks into the party.

By the way, that's all you need to know, Johnny, I know what movie this is, I think you.

Know, walks in with Lori Petty, I can't remember what her name is, Tyler and Tyler and it's full point of view on the steady cam and all the all the surfers are kind of looking down the barrel of the camera and interacting any kind of like that's a really bold choice, but I'm here for it. And the performances are so incredible. I mean, you know, we miss Patrick's waiting all the time. There's a big hole in that in Hollywood without him in it. Yeah, because what

I probably didn't clock that when I was watching. I saw this in the cinema when it came out and it was just it was fun. What's going to that point?

Break?

Everyone's in the same films. Everyone knows, you know, And I imagine making a film like that, maybe it's easy for ebody to know they're in the same film, but I imagine that's something you you have to make sure when you're directing that everyone is giving even performances.

The tone is even across the board, and that's what she's achieved Catherine Biglow. It's a punchy tone and she just goes for it and that everyone's on board. And again that marvelous character actor who plays the head cop who yells at him and he's so great. I should know his name too, but you know, he's just he doesn't like it's not And Gary.

Busey, who's Gary Busey as well.

He's so great in that.

I holiday at Tolky every year and I was so when I saw it, and then I was realizing, I think they shot this at talk That was probably back in the day when I when I thought, you know, wherever they were they that's where they shot. John c McGinley is in there, who's later seen in Scrubs. He's really good yeah, really good and everything he does. All right, let's get on to it. Let's talk about the film you are here to talk about.

You got to learn the role with ten punches. Yeah, what are you getting so mad about?

I ain't getting mad, joker, I've been mad all my natural life.

I'm just telling you the fact life.

I don't want to hear it. I've been listening to that stuff all my life. For my wife, be nice. They thought me in solitary confinement that she said, be nice. Man short with me when I turn in my crap, She said, be nice, or you in trouble. She teached my kid that seemed damn thing.

Never could get that woman to understand how I was feeling insane. All of a sudden, there was nothing left to see.

Dana read from nineteen fifty eight, directed by Stanley Kramer, Oscar winning screenwriter Nathan E. Douglas gets The screenwriter won the Best Cinematography for a black and white film. They used to do black and white and color categories back then. Did you enjoy the Fine Ones?

Yeah, it was fantastic.

How good is it?

Oh? It was just great. I really really enjoyed it a lot. I got vibes of The Fugitive. Of course, when it first started, I went on, this is what the original Fugitive was that first? Did it come later? It was very It was just so very interesting, and the fact that it's a little bit depressing that we haven't really forged forward with race relations much like we're kind of still talking about the same stuff but really

Oh I love this a lot, and and I think, yeah, you know, we haven't come far in racial relations, but in other ways, I guess I guess we have. I think they make this film now it's probably a comedy, you know, I started Martin Lawrence and you know that's true black you know. But I think it's worth pointing out when they made this film, like this was a tough film to make, and it was it was controversial.

He's so right, because you can't make that movie and pitch it out there and not have it like that. Yeah, yeah, you can't. You can't be part of the problem as the marketing if you're going to think it's no. That's very clever on his part.

And Sydney Poitier said it was the kindest thing anyone's ever done for him as an actor.

Well, I mean it's for Tony Curtis. It's a no brainer. It's you can't make that back then then I think.

You probably could know who would have maybe blinked it back. But I love it. When did you feel like you were in safe hands?

Was it from the get go? Yeah, I mean so you've recommended it to me, so I'm kind of like, oh, okay, this must be interesting, and.

Yeah, I mean it is.

It is.

It is a classic, and it wasn't nine Academy Awards, so you know, you watch it with a bit of confidence. It's not like every movie I've watched for this podcast I kind of absolutely love, but this was this is one where I like more people should know about this film.

Yeah, it surprised me because you know, all those other ones like talked about the last weekend and some like it hot. You know, they've kind of got, you know, to Kill a Mockingbird. There's all the Maram Monroe movies, all that sort of stuff. It just surprises me with someone like Sidney Poitier, who's so famous and his films are remembered that we're not wrecking and Tony Curtis, we're not looking at that as as part of the zeitgeist, as part of the ether of old films to look for.

Because the conversations they have in this movie are still happening today. Like you know, I speak often of or more recently on this podcast, that movie still feeling alive, and they you know, they a good movie will stay alive and it will even changing time. They're fluid based on you know, watching Citizen Kane in the you know, the way the media has gone recently, you know, he's a different experience as it was was maybe watching it one hundred years ago. And even Eyes White Shut, I

Even when they didn't give me a tip, I still had to say thank you. That word got a lot two stick of needles in me every time I said it. That can happen with a word, You know what I mean? Boy?

Yeah, and I got a needle sticking in me right now.

Look at joke and don't call me boy.

Well, you're just too sensitive.

Man.

I'm too nothing.

That's right. You're too nothing, that's right. But I got a little advice for you, man, because I like you. Man, you gotta take things as they are. You can't keep fighting them unless you want to be unhappy. I see you got a lot to learn. Boy.

Like you living in that fancy hotel.

Yeah, like me living in that family said hotel.

You think they're gonna let me in that fancy hotel too?

Oh?

Sure, they're gonna let you in that hotel through the back door. If you got a pail and a mop.

And you through the front door just long enough to collect your tip.

What's eating you? That's because I called you in n Yeah, Well that's what you are in it. It's not calling a spade a spade. I'm a honky. I don't try to argue out of it. You can call me a bowl hunker.

I don't mind.

You're here, Tell of a bowhunk in a wood pige your gud.

You over here, tell her catch.

A bowhunk by the tone.

Depends on how you mean.

How you mean it like I said it.

And I don't cry me because I didn't make.

Up no names.

No, you breathe it in when you're born, and you spit it out from then on.

We then sure.

Bugs you done it.

Well, that's the way it is. And you're stuck with it cause I didn't make any rules.

Ah, that's you shall live by him.

Everybody lives by him. Everybody stuck with what it is, even m.

Swamp animal, even that weasel.

You're calling me a weasel.

No, I'm calling you a white man.

To hear these arguments, he's still here people saying, well, I didn't make up these words. This is what. This is the way it is. And the refusal to take on the message that words have weight and history that may not mean anything to you or that you've had to live with, but you know other people.

Have exactly, And the entitlement of the white person not being affected as badly yea by those words because they're in a different position. Even though and it's still not enough for him. He still doesn't like the fact that he has to say thank you. That's that he's not getting as much as the other white guys. And I think that's still a humongous problem that we're all facing right now, and we're looking at the white men in America trying to take all that entitlement back because I

Well, he's triggered by the word thanks, likes something that triggered him as a white man. You know, maybe as a white man, maybe I wouldn't see maybe one of the kind of words that exists. And he's triggered by that because it means something different to him. Sure, But but then yeah, when when put to Sidney Potier's Noah's history, it fades in comparison, It really does. And the word boy has its history as well with with African Americans.

Yeah, And I think the African American culture affects the wider culture very very much on lots of levels. They take things, change things, and becomes part of our vernacular. But they're the ones that are doing it because they're affected so much and they're taking the power back. But it's so well written. It's just amazing to hear those two men have that conversation and to the entitlement of one, you know, and the true position of the other.

Yeah, and the challenges of having these you know, it's a great premise having these two people time together, but it comes with challenges as far as directing and how do you make it interesting? How does it not feel repetitive? And that comes not only with dialogue, but the situations

It also, which I don't quite get, there's that difference between the police and the sheriffs in America and what

They're talking about shooting them like they were rabbits. Yeah, and it's a sheriff who has to remind them, no, they're not. They're not rabbits there, they're men. And he's calling off the killer dogs, say the killer dogs when they made me giggle when they cutlet of the killer dogs. When they finally let them off, they look like friendly dogs who they're this wax and mask on added some rowling up in post production.

Yes, yes, dogs can be time consuming. I had to deal with a wolf once and oh my god, that took some time.

Wolf.

Yeah, and a wolf in an episode of Handmaid's Tale, and that was pretty tricky because that wolf was a pup and very happy to be there, and I was supposed to look really threatening. And they don't want to They really don't want to I'm sure those guys were the same. Those are dogs like.

Great, Yeah, it's extraordinary. So Sidney Potier, Tony Curtis on the the rapids, there's some there's some really physical scenes going on here. The I've heard Tony Curtis say that the that the hardest was the clay pit scene because they that was all then. They had no stunt doubles and they had to climb their way up some you know symbolism going on with the white man on the

I could see it in the rapids. Yeah, but again it might be the Sony Bravir TV. But I'm sure you have one too, But you kind of because you know, there's that shot in Face Off where the boat blows and the two stunt men come straight for you on them big white shot that's not that's not junto, and it was a bit like that, but it was still pretty close. So when I went why we touched the

Well, when they get the claypit, Jokers is bleeding or he's risc a bit cut up from the trying to pull nher up, and it's the first time there's a little bit of I guess nursing going on on. He puts a bit of mud on on his wrists. I'm not sure exactly what that does, but he said, I feels cooler, and then he kind of struggled. He says, thanks, but you can see it's still loaded with his own history with that word. I'm sure like when you know, I don't want jump ahead to it at the end,

Yeah, whether it's yeah, maybe it is from the suspicion of that, but I've got to say I did not take that might be something that's a historical thing.

I wrote a story when I was in in year seven, maybe even grade six, a war story because I was obsessed with, you know, war, and and my cousin also died. It's a bit sad. A few years earlier from leukemia, and uh, he was always on my mind, and I wrote a story and then and somebody got shot and contracted leakemia from the bullet. From the bullet, my teacher gave me a lovely right having. I said to say, you know, I don't think you can get lakemia through

He's poisoned somehow it is. Does it cast a light on them? I don't think so. I mean to me, I never took them. I took the mud as only being a healing thing.

So did I.

Yeah, and it doesn't. And it wasn't a mistake.

Talking the frog.

Quite possibly it was the frogs they ate.

Yeah, yeah, world frogs.

Yeah, could have been got to be careful. The world frogs could have been a cane toad.

I think that's a whole kind of worms. Stay read, but yeah they do. Yeah. The muppit is a is a great scen There's also in the train scene which we get to the maybe train scene at the end, because that, yeah, that's getting a little bit too close

Yeah, yeah, Look, it's interesting because I'm going, oh, yeah, this is this, Like, is this they're getting away with this because historically you could so now it's very controversial to even do that.

Yeah, but I wonder if if it's because it's it's nowhere applying it to Joker's face, I think that's very different as opposed to is Joker applying.

To his own face and the other thing of going because Stanley Kramer would be a white man the director and everyone's white, and whether or not it would a black director or a black writer even do the scene. I mean, we can kind of get really metter with it is that thing of going. What you know, Sidney Potier is going to be the only black representation on

Well, Stanley Kramer is Jewish, and he did want to He was really interested in the idea of racism and the way people treated based on his own experiences. So I'm not exactly sure how he gets to the the fiant ones, but that was certainly his way in for him. Yeah, from what I've seen, Sidney Potier and Tony Curtes only have beautiful things to say about the process. They said it was a tough shoot, but everyone was got along.

And also very very groundbreaking of the time.

It's like I said earlier, some actors they really had to consider whether they wanted to play this civil rights in America on TV, like that whole movement was really only represented like in the sixties. This is like in the fifty eight and probably mid to later sixties, I think, you know, so this was really a groundbreaking for yeah.

Yeah, risk taking and really interesting. It is interesting that this is the only Oscar nomination that Tony Curtis gets. Fine, because again we'll jump back to someone like is a year later, and you know, Jack Lemon gets a nomination because Tony Curtis is bloody excellent, equally as good, yeah, extremely funny, and you kind of go, I just wonder why that didn't continue for.

Him because now you often you you have to be nominated a couple of times, you know, and maybe if he was that pretty boy actor and he got but once he got nominated for this, he kind of surely there's a bit of like, oh, we're paying attention now, and he follows it up with some like at hot, okay, you deserve another one.

Yeah.

It just that's the snub of it, and you kind of thing, because it really is. It's a snub because Jack Lemon and I think Marilyn Monroe get nominated and not Tony Curtis, and he's there's nothing in that that's boring about his performance. He's very very good.

He's fantastic. It's fantastic. I mean, I do love Jack Lemon, by the way, nothing against Jack Lemon, but Curtis should be no one oated as well. That's right, Watsch A little bit of this is a little side tracked Glenn Garrick Glen Ross, which so it was way too late for me to watch stuff. It was like literally maybe like one third in the morning and I was just finished watching something else and then that was on. I thought, Barger,

I know, how does that happen? It's stupid.

Well they are they're making everything.

Happen I know, and choosing all that stuff.

A film can't be nominated for like ten Oscars and not be not be masterfully directed.

It is strange. It's very strange that he didn't get nominated and everything else does it is. It's weird, and it happens a lot.

Remember happening with Bruce bris for with Driving the Staisy, you know, and Jessica Tandy and Morgan from I think We're nominated nominated for Best Film, I think one Best Film, and the director isn't nominated. And because I remember whoever was he might have been Billy Crystal hosting at the time, he said, and Driving Mistake Daisy. He is nominated for six awards and it apparently directed itself. And there's a nausea back home. Yeah, Bridge Merris should have been nominated.

Yeah, you wondered because it's so political. All that stuff's very political, and you know, it's it's strange. I mean the ones that get me is the Editing Award, because I just kind of go, how are you judging that? Because you're you're not sitting in the edit with us. You don't know what that editor, the footage, the editor had to deal with, the performances, the problems. You don't

It's such a good point, isn't it. With editing. Sometimes it's what you leave out, Yes, that is.

I mean, you watch miracles happen, and I always think about the editor Jeff Lamb, who edited Sunshine for the SBS show I did. And we were working with all non actors South Sudanese community. There were no actors at the time, and they were on basketballers and so we were doing line by line performance stuff, line by line, and then we're doing all that basketball and all those games. And he slept under the desk and he was working so hard, line by line by line, finding treasure, bringing

Chapter to an actor who we both know actually and I know you've worked with him, and they nominated you for some stuff recently able to pass us, say a couple of years, and they were a bit, you know, like just a bit bewildered and bemused that they got nominated for some one of their projects but not the other. And it's just like clearly that performance is better than that one, and like and yeah, it's just it's completely ran.

That's right, I've got time.

Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, like that person.

Yeah, so it's interesting because yeah, the fact that that movie yeah obviously educated itself.

Yeah. The lynch mub scene is a big, a big scene where they so that they break into the general store, goes awry. They try to escape, great jump, almost a Simpson like jump out of the window. They land, They land perfectly. I'm not sure you know that windows just yeah, because it wasn't it wasn't like floor to ceiling window, but it was low enough at them to jump through land and keep running. But they do get caught and

Look, I mean again, it's probably one of the most tense scenes in it, and you kind of feel as though you feel for Sidney Poitier because he's the one that's going to be gone and that Tony Curtis will probably survive it.

Well, he says, you know, he can't hang. He tries a few things. He says, you know, we're we're convicted falons, so they're going to come looking for us, and they make the point, well, it's dead or alive. He goes, yeah, but you know, there's a bounty and all that. All that's up, and eventually he says, you can't you can't kill me. I'm a white man. And Sidney Potier plays it really well. Tony Curtis plays it really well as well.

It felt like he had a plan at that stage. It really did a kind of you know, because they're you know, are they still together at this point? And yeah, they are still because I know there was a lot of attempts to smack that thing, but I felt like he was saving Sydney Potier well he does, so it felt like I'm a white man like it kind of subverted the heat of the moment by him being there and saying that stuff. Because lynch mobs do it tends

Yeah, I agree, And we find out later when Sam releases them in the cover of night that he is a former chain gang, so yeah, they're representing. But I love the speech he gives with it's you know, if you want to lynch these men, you know you you kill them? Do you want to? Do you want to? You know, it's got the axe, you know, do you want to chop them up? Do you want to? He takes you know, the flame and the stick and do you want to poke their eyes out? You want to burn them?

You do it?

You do it?

But that what surprised me. There's a willing participant who goes, yeah, I'll do it, and he runs towards them. It gets knocked out by Sam. But I thought that was an interesting choice, and I thought, I mean, the scene is still great and it works completely, but I did think I wonder as a choice, you know, the scene works without somebody going.

Yeah, but it is that interesting thing of what the world is really like, and it's averting the whole Hollywood thing of going of Sam's speech not working on everybody, and and the fact he has to go thump to a certain person. So again, even though Tony Curtis subverts probably just pauses everybody for a second to not get that frenzy, it's Sam who steps in and kind of

He lands a good one, there's no doubt about that. Let's have a listen to. They get to the house, well, they have a fight and then there all of a sudden there's a rifle pointing at them, and it's a from a young boy named Billy, and good on them for you know, resisting and and fighting back. And they basically throw Billy Billy locked himself out, and I thought, well done, well done. Yeah, but I was really happy to see Billy Billy coppet. I think I was obviously

But the hair coming down, hair comes down? You know what that means?

You know what that means.

Look, it's again. My frustration with a lot of stuff is the really shit representation of what women are and what they want and the desperation and all that sort of stuff. So in a sense, as a female viewer for a lot of movies, you kind of go, oh yeah, and you wait for it to happen. So and again the fact that she doesn't even have a character name, you just go, come on, folks, you're making a film about breaking those barriers.

Billy got a name and it's just.

Because he's a boy. And again that thing of going reduced to just that and being more basically making Tony Curtis attractive, because it happens so often for male characters that there has to be someone there to be attracted to them to make them attractive, and it kind of was serving that purpose. So I kind of shut off a little bit at that point. I kind of go, okay, because it's like we were talking about with the science fiction writers, that could be such an interesting, nuanced character

Yeah. Yeah, And it's interesting when Samley Kramer can make a film like this, it is so saying so much, and it's it's a dangerous film and it's progressive, and I think it's aged really well. Like even one of the things we heard earlier and the end word is use. When Tony K goes to say it, he gets cut off. He gets cut off, you know, And I think that's yeah. You watch you know, Blazing Saddles now and it's it's hard, it's hard to hear so many times. So I think

It's just stuff for her. I don't know the name of the actor, but of what she brought to it, Williams to get that nomination because really it's again I go, she's there playing the usual kind of stick for what women were know, what you got to do, and there's so much there's as much subtlety as everyone else is playing that can be played by her at that point. So she's terrific. But I mean that happens a lot, that there's really terrific female actors out there turning those

You get yeah, yeah. And her husband's away apparently for three weeks. Because she has been there for three weeks, I assume I see if she has usually get to drive the car. I'm just joining some dots here, So he's been away for three weeks, and she's not just going to run away with this fugitive but drop the kid off the relatives.

It's it's interesting often it's just as of the female just does plot things to move it forward for the men. I mean, I'm going to keep talking about close encounters. But Melinda Dylon goes on that trip for Barry her abducted child, goes all the way there, does all that stuff with Richard Draviers and with gas masks and bloody up. The thing is almost there, looking down at that place where the alien ship's going to come to, and she goes, no, no,

Yeah, he's so run about this. Female characters have to being there for plot.

That's right, She's doing all this stuff and you're can go what she because if you are going to take off with the fugitive, leave your husband, drop your kid off, what is going on for you? And I think, yeah again, you kind of go that's I know, it's only sure, but you can be super charged. But people just not thinking like that at the time.

Well, I mean, I blame Catholicism, to be honest, I've raised a Catholic, and I always wondered about this growing up. In fact, I was writing kind of, you know, a routine about it recently. Is the Holy Trinity? The Holy Trinity is the Father's son and the Holy Ghost? It should be Why isn't Mary in the Holy Trinity? She did all she did, all the work. And the Holy Ghost, which is you never throun through in the Bible. Oh, it's a holy ghost. Nobody talks about the Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit.

What is it?

It's a made up thing. They've made up a character and bump Mary out. It's ridiculous.

It's like Billy's mother.

Billy's mother. Mary got a name, that's Jesus mother.

That's right, Mary got a name Mary because it could have been worse. It could have been just Jesus' mother the whole time, all this time.

So they they do their thing, they wake up next morning. I'm not sure have you ever slept at a table sitting down. That's a very hard thing to do, particularly if somebody is two people having sex a meter away. But well, I don't for Noah for being able to sleep through that. Pretty tired, I guess, yeah, you could argue that that he's pretty, he's pretty shattered, and there's the cars, a great shot of them. They get the car started, Billy's mother is convincing Joker to let's go,

That's awesome, and again saying it without saying it and just going, this is what's happened. This is where our man is.

I could actually like I can understand, like the point of me is like, oh, you bastard Joker, you know, but it's also a part of me that when I actually aught about it in okay, what would I do? You're kind to go, well, how long are they are they supposed to stay together? That's right, Like you can actually understand Joker's point of view where it's like, yeah, we've gotten this far, we are no longer chained together, we may be more may be more of a danger

Yeah, I mean, and to me, he was never ever going to not make that choice because that's his journeys, that is to go from you know what that speech where he almost says the end word to that, that's his that's that hero's journey is to choose Noah. So he kind of had to, I mean, and that's the reason why you'd take that role.

Yeah. Yeah. It's funny when you would see older films and you kind of this comes up along this podcast whe people will go, oh, now I understand all these Simpsons jokes, and you know, like and I think so Warner Brothers did a version of this movie with Sylvester the Cat and somebody else with They'll handcuff together. I've never seen it, but I saw something online referencing it. But like you go, it is like Midnight Cowboy. This

Oh god, I will definitely watch it again. Yeah, yeah, I kind of felt because again, with the way the time goes, I would have loved to watch it more time so we could talk about it in more detail. But yeah, it's definitely it'll be a rewatch for me.

Fantastic. I watched it twice this week. I loved it both times, and I wanted good as many people to watch it as you can the Defiant Ones. I watched it on Prime Amazon. I think it's about to leave, so see Just Watch is a great app by the way, if you're looking for where to watch stuff. Just a few fun facts before we wrap things up. Dana, the tech advisor on this was uncredited because he was actually a real life chain gang is KP and still a wanted man.

Oh my god, fantastic.

I love that Tony Curtis received top billing. We've covered that Brando one of the being this with Kirk Douglas, but Lancaster, Gregory Peck, Anthony Quinn, Quinn and Frank Sinatra or all people who were in line to play the role of Joker. A couple of most of the fun

Yes, but it's kind of grown over the years. My respect for Will Ferrell has grown and grown and grown and grown and grown. And I think succession has fed into all of that, and his relationship with Adam McKay and what he has to say about the world. Yeah, now I'm a massive, massive fan.

I cannot wait to have that discussion. We'll get that going soon, Dan Aerie, thank you so much. I've been hoping we will have this conversation for a long time.