Hi, I'm Justine Harcourt to Tourville and I am once again at Cannes XR with another film festival expert. We are here with Liz Rosenthal who is a co, a curator. Is that the correct word? Co-curator of Venice. This is a big one. Liz. Welcome.
Hi Justine.
It's good to have you back. Let's ask, let's go dive in. What's happening right now for you? It's, it's May, we're in the middle of May and into the summer. We have Venice. What's on, what's happening for you right now on the agenda?
So it's a pretty busy time at the moment. Um, we're coming up to our submissions deadline for the Venice Film Festival for the official competition section. Um , it , it's on the 31st of May. So I'm looking at a lot of new works.
31st of May, right?
Yeah, yeah. Coming up very soon. So at the end of the month.
Okay. We won't get it in?
That's right. So we do our selection in June. The announcements are made at the end of July. So that's at the Venice Film Festival press conference is in Rome . So if anyone needs to talk to us about projects and they're in Cannes is a great opportunity to find me or Michelle and we would, you know, we can look at prototypes so we can chat about the submission date, but we're going to be, it's pretty much fixed the 31st of May.
Does that it happened like at midnight, you know, is that the, there's a clock titan midnight June 1st and it's over.
Are you in terms of, okay, so with the official submission, you've definitely got to get your submission in on the 31st of May through the portal. Okay. We may be able to look at files maybe a few days later, but you have to get in touch with us about that to see if it's possible because we, you can imagine we're looking at so many different types of works and works in progress that, you know, our team who organized all the selection files.
For us, it's a lot of work and we have to, we've got a lot to look at in a short amount of time . It has to be already organized. Typically, how many injuries do you have to look at? Because Venice is quite unique with the A-list festival, with an official competition section for VR. So that's putting , um, when I say VR, I should say a massive content because we're looking at all kinds of work. Um, that's Ar, Mr, VR ,. and ARJR k are exactly any o t , r anything that people can justify.
There's a mass we're interested in talking to you about. and see what's unique about it as a fact that we really are only looking at world's premiers . Um , in the , uh, eligibility section of the submission documents, it says , um , international premieres , which is true that all there is eligibility for those, but there are going to be very few that we take.
Um, we want to show new work, so it would be work that's hardly been seen in its own country of origin because we really, it's fantasy is really about the launch of projects. And because we put a huge resource into the island , you know, it says very special exhibition space. Um, the red carpet wedding , red carpet VR we're saying that this new form is an entertainment and art form that exists and it should be considered in the same way at cinnabar is.
Absolutely. We certainly believe that. But so, so you have this premiere thing and by keeping it a surprise or under wraps and it adds to the excitement factor and the wow factor even when they debut at Venice as anything special that you remember when, when something happened, did you witness a reaction that surprised you? Well, I think the whole thing of the assignment of premiering and it's a very beautiful festival. DNS, it, the, it's on the leader in Venice.
Um, and there's a, it's a very different festival to can cause kind of sees a biggest finished product market for film in the world. Um, Venice is all about exhibition and also about project finance. So we, I am not going to talk about a much about that because the deadline was yesterday projects & development. I'm so sorry. Anybody who didn't get a thing in. Um, but it's so , it's very it hasn't got a huge crowds.
It's very much about beautiful exhibition , um, and premiering and launching work and the beauty of the exhibition and in the beautiful surroundings. Yeah. And it'd be a gnarly , he runs the film festivals , so obviously be a gnarly , as one of the most important cultural organizations in the world. And so this idea of exhibiting art is, and the highest forms of entertainment is, you know , one of their events and something that I hold dear to their heart.
I didn't answer your question though about a numbers of submissions because that was the thing I wanted to say. Because of the world premier . Um, we get around probably about 200 projects, but it cuts down what we would have because we were showing older works. You'd have 10,000 or 5,000. It's quite a lot to do and you know, 200 of them in a week or , I mean we, you feel kind of spaced out , um, after doing sort of, you know, day after day viewing.
But we have a fantastic team that helps us as a Diversion Cinema that obviously a name for their , um , you know, VR cinema servicing and as a distribution company and they'd help they organize our selection process. So it's a wonderful time. I loved doing it. Um, and I feel very fortunate to get to see totally new works . So it's very much so around, the excitement is obviously this form is changing so fast and the types of work we see and the quality of work is evolving so quickly.
It's kind of exciting being , getting a chance to see things that are state of the art from around the world. And what's also exciting is the diverse aspect of Venice. We have a large number of projects that come from Asia. And more and more from other parts of the world is not just Europe and North America, which we tend to see in a lot of the festivals. Yes, well this, this is exciting and to think that you're, you know, actively receiving things from all of the way.
It tells us how our industry is growing, but at the same time you're telling me that the, the level is, is developing as well. If you're able to see progress over the years in terms of what's new and what's creative and you're still being dazzled, these are all good signs for the industry.
Absolutely.
So tell us more about, I know that you're working on other things. Um, sounds like you have a creative XR project going on as well. You want to tell us a little bit about that? Sure. So , um, I'm an executive producer on a really great program that has , she started last year in the UK. It's called creative XR . It's , um, a content accelerator program. So I will explain. I'd like to know that it.
It's , uh, it's actually been developed and funded by central London called the digital catapult , um, which is a kind of incubator space for , um, for immersive content and tech and artificial intelligence and 5g actually. So that's what they concentrate on. It's public private. It's also funded this program by the Arts Council of England. So that's our government body that funds all kinds of arts organizations and projects.
So that can range anything from theater to dance, to art, to classical music, to experimental music. Okay. And so they basically fund , um , organizations like the Royal Opera House, which needs huge amounts of funding down to really experimental Mercer theater, but across different formats. So what some is , is a very interesting program. So the structure is we do a cool friend trees and we're looking at all kinds of, and we take 20 , uh , teams , um , with a project .
So a project and the team that we select, and I were looking at all types of immersive art and entertainment and a lot of the companies who applied is kind of exciting for me because they come from backgrounds I don't necessarily interact with. And this is what's the beauty of immersive content. It's brings together such a huge amount of skills and industry and , um, art silos , um, into one space. So we, we f we give 20,000 pounds to each of the projects.
They have a short window of prototyping. Um, and we also do mentoring , um , for all of the project teams in the projects. So it's sort of strategic advice on , um, you know, on the structure of the project about how they've got the right team, the right final structure, the right distribution plan, thinking about audiences. Um, so that's, that's happened last week, actually refinished all of that.
What are people in these, what are these art groups or specifically immersive art, what are they struggling with most and what kind of help do they seem to need most often? What I find there , and this is across the board. Okay . Um, other artistic endeavors. Yeah. When I'm talking it's very hard saying, you know, we're , we're looking at generically, but it's the same kind of work that we're programming in Venice. You know, it's exactly the same.
So I'd say it's, you know, high end sort of narrative, artistic work and um, entertainment as well. So it fits right across even its arts council funding it . Um, the, one of the main problems identify in the area. Of course I've spent a lot of time mapping out the EK system and looking at all the things we need and the gaps in terms of making us an industry.
Um, and one of the main things I think is um, because it's a very young industry, I noticed that the kind of people going into their overcome from um, artistic backgrounds, tech backgrounds, v Effects , backgrounds, games , um, arts organizations , um, and or design agencies and they don't have a lot of producing experience because I come from the film industry originally. That's a very templated way that you did business that, you know, has had a a hundred years to develop.
And I don't think people are thinking in terms of the ecosystem they need to create value around their project. And value doesn't just mean money, it means impact because he might be working in the grants kind of space or not for profit space. Very important quote. I think that you're saying, you know, that impact is just as important as money or if not even more important because it has a longer lifespan. Money can help you buy impact.
Some of the times, not always, but that's a very, I think that's a very important concept. Yeah. And so one , I, I've used, whether it was in film or interactive projects that are immersive because they're partners you bring on board to your project, they all have different needs. And of course we have to prove the case in terms of return on investment.
Sure. Um, and that's a lot of the time the case, but Rita , you know, it's impact is a really important topic as it is, it changed opinion, does it, you know, spark meaningful , um, thoughts, you know, these are products that, you know , you've, you have a partner that is giving you something, whether it's hardware, software or wherever they're an NGO , um , where you're making a social impact prep project. It does it serve what those partners need, right .
And lots of time, I think we're, you know, look, people fail or we're in this r and d space and it's about experimentation and cool. Yeah . And that , and the problem is if we keep on just treating our work like that, it has any value, right? Yeah. And when you're in the content space, it might be fine for the people who are in the hardware. Well not always, but the software companies or hardware that you're using because they want to demonstrate religion , but it doesn't for content makers.
And what happens is if you don't think about sustainability or you don't think about value you, it means the checks, I shouldn't say checks, no one use the checks anymore, but he stops coming in. You can start asking questions after a few years . And especially in the immersive space where there are all these huge headlines about disappointing, obviously sales had sets and oh , VR is not working today . So we really need to sort of be professionalize.
And what I find is that role of producer that's kind of very established in the film business. It's very hard role. And not that you know, there's a necessarily body , it's just a certain kind of talent I think is what you're , so what would you say then? What is the core thing that a producer needs to be able to do?
So if you're going to say we're going to help your, your project or your team, if you're going to do , should someone nominate a producer, should it be that a of their team, should they look outside for a producer or should they get coaching? What would you say they should do? Okay, so there are loads of different types of producers, but I'm going to talk in a general sense, okay . About making work.
So if you make a film or a TV project or gain , you would make that project within the vehicle of a production company. A limited company, right ? Because if you have to bring money on board and you start dividing out the equity, the ownership of the project, you need a , you need a limited company to Dana and then when you start licensing it, you're going to have to, you know, people for a start won't invest in your project.
Whether it's a public fund , a government fund, or it's a private commercial organization, they can't invest unless you have limited company. Cause it's a first, there's a limited light . There's liability. Sure . You see your personal liability goes when you're working in a business structure and then two to structure it. That is very, very clear. Who owns what . There are loads of rights you're going to have to clear in your projects.
You have music do with images, do with everything, with every piece of an artistic expression has to be copyright, you know, the copyright has to be identified. So the ownership is really important when you're working in media and then the licensing. Um , so a lot of the time, you know, this may happen, so you need someone, you need to production company for Starr and production companies, producers or people who work with them have different skills.
Sometimes you get creative producers here, sometimes you have light in line. Producers tend not to be the owners of companies, but you know, when you've got a small bootstrap company you're going to have to multitask. Yes . Um , so I would say it , starting with the general is you need someone who understands how you develop intellectual property. So you go for a development stage, how you bring on artists.
So I tend to think it comes, I see projects and initiate with producers or producers, find artists they want to work with and then they option the right to work on them and then then they take ownership. And that's the only you can really use when you're looking for investment. So this is good because I think a lot of times when people think of producers, they think of someone that manages logistics and gets deals, but they're putting a focus on the rights as a first place to start.
Sounds like a good idea. Yeah. And just this developing something of value that you're going to try and exhibit or create impact or sell and it's going to have value. And I put, producers sees it right through the creative and the team making it. They make it, they don't care about the exploitation or the exhibition, wherever it is. They actually have to see what happens after it and deal with all the collections.
So we have to start thinking in this way because once you start making something, you're selling to it, to platforms. Um , different platforms, wherever they're physical, location based and same , they're still still licensing and he needed proper contract. So you need someone who understands the overview and also the thing of launching, you know, making a strategy for the project. And then there were loads of what people have producing.
Rose are creative producers , um, or they may just do the money side as well. But it depends how big your company is obviously. Well, and this makes me think a lot of what we spoke about last time we talked about distribution and how would the producer, would he be the one to manage all of that as well? Ideally? Well I think producers , um, yes. I mean if the going to point before was that even creators thinking things to need first and foremost about their distribution strategy. That's right.
And in a way I just, for creative XR, I just did a, I did a two day workshop where I did an overview of the whole kind of sector, but I kind of started with the end. Oh . And I think, and the reason why I think it's really important, I'm about to do a lab in the Verio as a European create a creator's lab. I'm Asterik KaMMCO runs and I suggested this as well. The first tour of the lab is about distribution and the market.
Cause I think when you're making something that's very new and nothing's changing, you've got to identify who you're making it for and where it's going to go before we start making it. It's the most important thing. So , um, so around distribution , um, a producer generally would, you know , the thing is we're very young. Our business, I'm about to do a panel on location based on Shaman.
One of the main issues is we don't have a lot of people who are licensing work who were sales agents and distributors. And at the moment the producers are doing a lot of the legwork in terms of distribution. So it's quite a big role. There are a few new companies coming into this area. So in film or television, what you need, you might get a presale from a sales agent or distributor.
He's found money from a platform or a district territory distributor that goes into their making that helps with the making the film or they may sell it after you finish that they become the sales agent to sell around the world to different territories and platforms. Um, so that's what you would, we are hoping for and we need our people who are coming into the space. You are going to be , uh, licensing the project because producers can't do everything. No, I imagine not.
And they really should be around looking at the future value and maybe bringing someone on board earlier. Hopefully that's going to become a norm. Um, but they, should they hand it on to someone when it comes? I do . I mean, I like , I think it's, it's a very generalized thing to say and it's easy for film because there's a ton of native business. This is such a new area that I don't think that's going to happen.
Not Minnesota way , but what you're , what you are saying is there is room opening up. Um , there's a whole place where we don't have the bodies yet, but theoretically, as distribution grows, licensing's going to certainly grow together in tandem. And so there's going to be need because you're right, I don't see any human being able to do all the tasks that go into production currently in VR, immersive.
But I think it's a really, and it's something going back to creative XR is something I don't , we identified it and most of the projects , um , when I was sort of running through, I made them do a kind of mapping out the strategy and I was running through every single project and the one thing they sort of realized was they don't have someone to pull the money together or the has the contacts to the platforms have money . They don't have the network.
Um, and endlessly I would say , do you know someone that can help us? And it was, it's really interesting just seeing this is a real problem. So I think more , um, you know, labs and training around producing is really essential because it's something that's kind of not known of. So it comes back to Ashley, what we're talking about back in Venice is only in what we talked about in the last pump cost was , um, around this idea of value.
And a lot of the time what's happened until now is that , um, projects have kind of shamed prototypes and they've happily gone to festivals and not had a strategy and they happy to show everyone to show their work to as many people as possible. Yeah. Look what I made . Yeah. And they, and when they do that, if you're working in the film or other artistic field, it doesn't work because you've already shown it, you've launched it and it feels like it doesn't have value.
The fact that you pull your headset out in a cafe and show somebody something or you show it in , um, you know, a market space before showing , uh , a festival to premiere it, it's, it's a real issue and they don't get the part that you have to plan your launch and you have to hold it back and think, where's the best place you're going to start your project? And there could be many reasons , um, you started in specific places, but you need to have a strategy.
And a lot of the time Michelle and I are finding and we feel really bad, you know, makers are coming to us and saying, what do you mean you weren't sure in Venice I, I showed a , um, you know , uh, you know, festival in France like they were German produce or something. How come this ridiculous when you make an assumption and it's a complete, or they've shown it in 10 festivals before and they're like, why when you take it to Venice?
So people need to really think that if they're going to debu and Venice, it has to be part of their strategy way long before, because it sounds in some ways like you're preventing people and there's , there's an argument for this of like letting people show their artwork or their , their painting , um, and various stadiums and saying, look what I've done, which will detract from the end piece. It won't have the effect. And that's what you're going for with a Phaco .
What happens with these itis festivals and which w what we think is really important for high narrative and artworks. Is there a launch pad to get attention and press and fantasy is the any festival that's doing it in this way, in a similar way to what happens to , um , say the competition section in Cannes and competition session. Venice, these films enough never be shown somewhere else and everyone's waiting for him to come out. Obviously we know an immersive, it's a smaller expectation.
Um, but we have to , um , present this new form in as best way we can because at the moment, the way that works are being presented and festivals, there's lots of times demo and they're seen as tech demo. So the critics and the press that we need to start writing about our work, they're just not interested or they do overview articles.
There's a lot of tech press and the excellent VR press that, you know, we have a fantastic, obviously community and network of people who write about VR , but they do overview articles. And then more about it being an experimental form.
And the articles I read from the Sundance, it was really interesting because any of the more sort of serious , um, I'll say broadsheets or higher media outlets , um, we're talking about this cell as an experimental medium, medium that it was always, it's kind of interesting as a tech demo and I taught, I taught rural companies and they're still talking to me about demoing their work and fashion . You're , you're talking, you're trying to create a festival for grownups in a certain kind of way.
Oh, value. Well, yes , it's about valuing the work in a way and saying this is an art form. It's not tech demo isn't a baby. It's not an infant. It's not, you know, a, a brand new toy. This is the real thing and it's mature and you're wanting it to be seen and valued as maturity . And these are, some of this is a very important way of doing it. And I know an Angus people sometimes, but it's, it's going to, going to help the industry. I would say there's a strategy behind it.
Let's imagine that speaking with you, there's a strategy, but I think it's great. I mean there should be a space for, there could be spaces and there are spaces that are at festivals that show pieces and progress. So it's, I think it's perfectly acceptable to have a space only for pieces that haven't been seen. I think you even need to be very careful about the thing about progress. So there are many ways you can show your work to finances. If it's a work in progress screening that's closed.
Okay. So have a closed one example is have a closed screen . Oh , it's the festival that they do closed offenses invitation only. So it's a be to be a valued only for investors. Yeah . Whereas their offer festival was anyone with a pass and a festival come and see the work and practice is done. You've Shana . Yeah, that's, yeah, you're right. Because I'm , I know myself, I'm less likely to see something.
I saw a first draft of , um , just like you, you know, for writers, no one wants to read the full novel when you read like the first draft that was mediocre, you know, because it was a work in progress. So, so, so there's a lot of logic to this. Do you have any other advice ? I mean this is really good stuff for people to think about.
We know we need to think about producers, we know we need to start thinking about distribution strategy and also about preserving our work and keeping it to ourselves until it's in a finished shape to get the kind of respect that we need and that not only for ourselves in our work but also for the industry. Any other great thoughts you want to add? Lose. You're on a roll. Alright . I'm going back to this idea about value. I think it's like the most important thing.
It's really hard to get people interested in his meeting cause I don't know what it is. And you know , Exon exon now is essentially a set of developing tools and technologies, you know, hardware and software that um, it can be used to make all kinds of experiences. There's not one thing that's VR or ar, it's very hard to describe Si to bring people into this environment. It's really hard to get people to see work because they don't know what it is or to write about it .
Their experience has to be good. It's, you know , we're already working with clunky technology headsets , um, that are kind of unhygienic that heavy. Um, often it's noisy and species . See , make, make sure that the first time, well , every time that people have an experience , um, that you think about their user experience okay. That they feel comfortable and secure , um, and that you're creating a beach environment for them to see something.
Because I can remember that and I know so many people and a lot of critics who think they've done it and don't like it and don't understand it because they were [inaudible] set chuffed on was something that wasn't, was a work in progress. It was noisy, it was dirty, it was uncomfortable. They waited for ages. So we have to, and I know this is hard. I know this all requires planning and resources, but I think it goes back to this thing.
If we don't think about how we present , you present an onboard and offboard people, then it's just going to be seen as that tech. We're demo thing in a corner. All I have to say I've, I , I certainly do like the experiences where there is somebody to help me into a clean headset that sets it up. Yeah . For me even puts my hand on the proper buttons of the controller because I tend to, you know, be a clots and mess up all the buttons. So any kind of assistance I tend to value.
So I appreciate your saying that. Once again, we need to think about that even for people that are in VR and do VR stuff, it is nice to be helped into something in eased into something by someone. It may not work every time, but you know, you're , you're right. You should think about how do I put this on an, on a viewer and also be quite responsible about it because the is a pretty intense experience . It can be.
I mean, it is, and we know there are a lot of intense experience that people make who date Ashley. They forget they're in the midst of their project. That if you free someone into a war zone or you post some, or you have someone on the edge of a cliff or you put them in a horror film , they don't know and you don't tell them, oh , you're going to touch them or someone's going to come up and touch them. And an experienced grabbing my court today in the middle of a [inaudible] happened to you .
It really was. Excuse me. Cause they actually, it's you, you're in a fight. Vulnerable space. Yes . So you really need to think of these things because I'm , I know people who've had panic attacks in the middle of experiences , um , for very valid reasons , um , that have been ridiculed by the people who are presentable enough to, to handle it. Right. Or you're crazy or whatever. Take crazy.
So let you know, getting back to this thing, I've a massive is being VR has been used to help treat PTSD, has been used for all kinds of cognitive behavioral therapy. It's do the one thing as well as for medium. So it's a really, so I think it's a kind of something Jarrin Lenay writes about a lot. I'm so Jared Lanea is the godfather of VR and I love reading his works or listening to videos when he say he's one of the first people who created tools watching a VR.
And he said when someone comes out of an experience, what he used to do is give them a bunch of roses , which is kind of a really beautiful thing cause you , it's an intense experience where you're going into another world and coming out of her . That's true. It's , well that's a very good point. And you know, I'm willing to receive roses eight same path by the way. You know, and I'm going to expect that now when I come to Venice and might go something not in the budget.
Oh we'll get an island the island. Fair enough. Fair enough. And you get Campari and a red carpet and a red carpet. Okay. Liz Rosenthal, it is always a pleasure having you and I can't wait to see what's happening both with the creative XR and also at Venice. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you Justin.