YNA is a podcast that focuses on mental health and other aspects relating to what goes on inside of a person's head. We are by no means professionals in this field and only aim to make these conversations about mental health easier for the listener. Nothing we say or talk about is professional advice unless explicitly mentioned. If you seek professional advice or experience symptoms of an actual mental disorder, please contact a professional or visit your closest centre for behavioral
health. You are not alone. Hello. Hello. Hello. Welcome back to Mental Health. My name is Sina and I'm here with Tarek, and we're on an episode on Medication part two. So welcome to the podcast. We really appreciate you coming out, kind of explaining your story and kind of getting an understanding of what medication is and kind of getting a background on who you are. So if you could just explain a little bit about what you do and who you are and we'd
really appreciate it. Sure. Thanks for having me. I'm Tarek Ikub. I'm a child and. Adolescent psychiatrist, so I work primarily in a hospital setting. So I see youth who are hospitalized psychiatrically for acute mental health issues. I also work on the step down unit, which is called like a partial hospitalization program. That's that's you kind of go to programming and groups and stuff from nine in the morning to three in the afternoon. Usually people go for about 2 or 3 weeks.
So medication is something I prescribe every day, but I'm also trained in something called psychodynamic psychotherapy, which is kind of what if you've ever heard of Freud and psychoanalysis and stuff? It's kind of an extension of that. But one thing I really focus on is the symbolic meaning of medication, okay? And so I think talking about medication is really important just how we think about it, what it actually treats, what it actually does. So what got you into this field?
It seems like for a lot of people these days, we get lost in our careers or we don't even know where to start. What got you here and how did you even get into wanting to help people like this? Like a painting right there. I haven't put up yet, but it's a Frantz Fanon who's like very famous.
I mean, he started off as a psychiatrist, but he was born in Martinique, studied medicine in France, started thinking about racism a lot, moved to Algeria because Algeria was essentially like a settler colony of France at the time, was working in the prisons in Algeria for and was treating people who were labeled mentally ill. But he was saying, you know, the social conditions are and the oppression is what's making people it's mentally ill.
Like if you're if you're saying when you're being oppressed, that's that's actually. Yeah. So he ended up kind of leaving that post and joining the the Algerian army to fight against the French for my liberation. So he's always been a hero of mine. I was I studied history in college. I was a history major. And I focused on kind of theory and post-colonial theory. And him and Edward said were like the two giants of post-colonial theory.
And I thought I was going to be a history PhD. I think when you're when you're in academia like that, you make the things you actually are interested in. Don't make enough of a social impact, right? Yes. Yes. So I thought medicine would be a vehicle for social change. Yeah, because I was really involved in student activism. And so I went to medical school hoping to, like, figure out a path for me. But Fanon was always my guy and wow. And I went I went to my psychiatry rotation.
I ended up liking it the best because it was probably the least algorithmic part of medicine. Okay, A lot of medicine now is like, you know, step wise, like if you're a cancer doc, not to knock on them. They do amazing work and stuff, right? But like a lot of it is protocol based. Okay? But in psychiatry, there's still, like everyone, everyone's relationship to their brain and to their life is different, right? Completely different. Yeah. The brain is a subjective organ, right?
Like the heart doesn't know it exists, Right? Exactly. But the brain knows it exists. And so we still struggle to. To really make sense of that scientifically. Yeah. And so that's what drew me in. Wow. It was to still be theoretical and do the art of medicine and but still try to have like a science neuroscience basis for things.
So the brain really interested you and you kind of just went down this path of like understanding not only who you are and what you need to deal with, but understanding how many people these days go through so many difficult, traumatic experiences compared to going through some kind of an abuse, to going to anxiety and depression like things like that. Um, what types of mental health conditions can be treated with medication we can just dive deep in.
Yeah, I mean mood disorders like depression, bipolar disorder, things like that, anxiety disorders, psychotic disorders, schizophrenia, things like that, neurodevelopmental disorders. So ADHD, for example. I mean, probably stimulants are probably the best medication like the most. Effective medications we have in psychiatry. And I know there's a whole it's kind of a polarizing topic about stimulants and stuff. And then I think some conditions have psychiatric sequelae or symptoms, right?
Like people with dementia may have irritability or aggression or some people with autism who are nonverbal, for example, and can't communicate their needs, might have aggression and irritability. So there's medications specifically focused for that. So it seems like with medications, they're all separated into whatever you're dealing with, whatever you're going through. And it's kind of prescribed to you as it goes with the level of I believe it's on a spectrum, if I'm correct.
And with symptoms, they may indicate persistent feelings of sadness, anxiety or hopelessness, difficult and sleeping fatigue or loss of energy. With these symptoms, one of my friends brought up a really good point was when do I know that I'm at a level of like this needs to be fixed or this needs to be changed? Because it seems like we're stuck in a world where I can feel irritated. But when do I know that I need the help to get the medication?
Do you have any way of like, trying to help someone like that on that kind of level? Yeah. So although I prescribe medications every day, I'm generally a minimalist with it. And a lot of times, especially because I work with kids being hospitalized, a lot of what I do is take away medications. Yeah, but that being said, I think what the conversation I have with families and patients about medication is, hey, are these symptoms causing functional decline?
So with kids that means like were they like an A, B student and now they're failing classes? Or are the symptoms getting in the way of friendships? You're losing all your friends somehow, for whatever reason, or you your part, your job that you're working on the weekends, like you work at Starbucks or something and you're just not performing to the and you can't you can't handle basic mundane tasks that you used to be able to do.
So if you really notice like a downslide in your, your your social functioning and your and and your professional functioning, that's when I talk about that's when I suggest starting a medication. How do you determine the right medication and dosage for a patient? I mean, I think that's a great question because unlike other other fields in medicine, right, like if you have diabetes, we can take your A1C, we can based on that
number. There's a specific medication based on potency that you can choose. We don't have tests like that in psychiatry. So it's a very symptom based treatment. So what I say is medication doesn't usually treat an underlying cause, right? It treats the symptom because we don't know. Truly what the underlying cause is. From a neurobiological level, I would say maybe people with PhDs and stuff in neuroscience have have theories and they're trying to solidify them right now.
But so, you know, if sleep is a big issue, I might give a medication that's known to help with sleep. If like energy is the biggest issue, I might cater it to that. So it's usually what symptom do you want to change the most? Which one's the one limiting you the most? That's what we address. And of course, with symptoms there comes potential risks of side effects.
And someone had pointed out to me that they had been gaining a lot of weight because they were on a certain type of medication and they wanted to come off of that medication. So and kind of switch and change. I think with that it's kind of getting an understanding and self-aware of like your body and seeing how the medication and you kind of go hand in hand for people that are going through those kind of side effects. How do you how do I deal with these kind of side effects on a daily basis?
And when do I know I need to transition to a different one because it's just not working for me? I mean, if the symptom is not improving, usually we say give these medications a month or two. If you're seeing zero change whatsoever, one, maybe the medication is not working or two, maybe it wasn't a medication issue to start with. Right. Because sometimes I see especially kids and they're aggressive and they're irritable and they're on medications.
But the real issue is the relationship they may have with their parents. Right? Yeah. Or the anxiety their parents have about their kid and they're kind of just projecting it onto the kids. So they think he's like or she's a horrible person and so we're just throwing meds at them. But if we were just able to have the parents think differently about the kid, maybe we wouldn't need it.
But to answer your question more directly, if it's a medication issue that's just not working, I'd say wait a month or two. If there's no symptom improvement, then you should think about change and then everyone should knows their bodies. Well, yeah, right. And if you feel like there's side effects that are that are not tolerable, it's not worth being on the meds.
Right, Right. Like if if you are feeling more irritable, if you can't sleep, if you can't eat, like you lose your appetite or something or you know, you're gaining a lot of weight in a way that is is really making you feel bad about your body or not giving you the energy you have. Yeah. Or you want, then it's probably worth switching. With coming to prescribing medication.
Of course there comes instructions and it seems like a lot of people these days, they kind of try to follow the instructions, but they also try to follow what their body is trying to tell them. Do I if I'm prescribed a medication, do I take it as is, or do I try to focus more on what works? Like if I have a crazy exam and I'm on an anxiety medication, if I continuously slow down on my medication, but when that exam comes up, I continuously take more.
Am I doing it right or am I kind of going down the wrong path of like, I need to not follow it, I need to follow instructions instead? I think there's so many different types of medications. So, I mean, I think I have a better answer to that question if I was specific. But in general, I think a lot of these medications either take time to build up or work right away.
And so in both cases, they should always be taken as prescribed, because if the ones that usually you just take in the moment tend to be addictive or you tend to build a tolerance to it. So if you take a lot. Yeah. Or more so than you're prescribed, then they're probably lose their efficacy over time. And the ones that, you know, take a while to build up in your system, take a couple of weeks to fully work, if you just take a couple extra, they're probably not going to do much for you.
Yeah, for symptom relief, but they might increase side effect risk in the moment. When you try to separate these mood disorders on what medications to take, is there any that you follow? Like with anxiety, like with depression, you take Prozac as an antidepressant, if I'm correct on that and is there with with each one, is it completely different Because I know anxiety and depression, they go hand in hand.
So do you describe two medications for each one or is it kind of just understanding like what is more of an effect on you, depression or anxiety? Well, the medications that are first line for both depression and anxiety are in the same class. They're SSRIs, selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors. They're medications that increase the level of serotonin in your brain and then upregulate the receptors downstream later. And so.
You know, if someone has depression and anxiety, that's usually our first line med and you can kind of hopefully treat them with one medication. And there's a lot of studies. So what? So how I choose the the specific antidepressant for someone is they're, they're all very similar, but they have little nuance differences. Okay. So one of them might be. Better at giving you a little bit more energy. One of them might be a little bit more sedating. So if you can't sleep, it might be better.
One of them can help maybe, you know, stabilize appetite. So it's really based on the symptoms you have like these little differences. Some of them also are known to interact with drugs more than others or less. So if someone's on a lot of meds. I'll add one that is not is not metabolized in the liver in the same way as some of their other meds. So that's kind of the nuances of it.
I turn a lot of studies, so in in adolescence and youth, probably the most studied antidepressants, there's three of them and I call them antidepressants because that's what we're called by SSRIs. They're also anti-anxiety meds are Prozac or fluoxetine is the generic name Lexapro or Escitalopram is the generic name or Zoloft or Sertraline is the is the generic name. So those are probably the three most studied in youth. So I like to use the big the big clinical trial studies.
Right. And so. I base, I prescribe those the most just because they're the most well studied in youth. There's times where I use other ones, but working in an academic setting, I tend to rely more on the clinical study. Yeah, of. Course. And what you had said in our episode now is that it depends on what symptom you need to tackle first, whether it's sleep, whether it's eating like what is it?
And then it seems like from there you kind of get a better understanding, okay, which one do I go with to kind of help this person go through with whatever they're feeling at adolescence these days? It feels like we're so confused. And some people go the medication route, some people go to therapy route. Do you recommend one or the other or to go both ways? Is there is there someone is there some that you believe?
Have you ever seen someone go through something and been like, Hey, maybe medication isn't for you, maybe we should go down the therapy route instead for you. Is there anything you see like that? Yeah, I mean, I do that a lot. Often, I think. I see. So for someone to get to a point where their psychiatric hospitalized, there's usually. You know. Intense suicidal ideation or even a suicide attempt or there's a lot of aggression or there is a difficulty being based in reality.
Still, what we would call psychosis. And so everyone kind of jumps to medication first at this level. And I think oftentimes medication is needed. But there are times, like I said before, like, hey, how did we get here? What's the story? Are we trying to fix something that medication can't fix, like, you know, trauma in the home abuse, intense poverty, violence in the neighborhood?
Yeah. Those things like, yeah, they're going to affect your mood a lot, but is it okay if I give you a medication to to help quell symptoms? Am I doing you a service or a disservice? Right. Right. Because, you know, you should be feeling those things in situations like that. Right? So that's always the question I ask. But when it comes to to therapy and meds, if we're looking at like really severe anxiety or depression. The studies will show us that. Dual therapy.
So therapy and medications give you the best outcome and the fastest amount of time. Okay. So like the big studies in youth, there's one called the Tadd study the treatment of adolescent depression study. Okay. Will show you kind of what it showed us is that in the first. 12 weeks of treatment if you were on a medication and therapy. So if you did both together, you got better, faster. It depends how severe the symptoms are.
Like if if the symptoms are so severe, like if I have to live three more months like this. Yeah. You probably want to do both. Yeah. Is there any level? I feel with addiction, it comes to a point of getting lost in what is prescribed to you, and it feels like addiction is much easier these days than it was. Or maybe I'm completely wrong, and maybe addiction was easier back then than it is now because it feels more controlled on level of dosage.
For someone who's worried about medication and feels like they might get addicted to something like this. Is it possible to reframe your mindset, to be ready to take the medication so that you understand like, hey, maybe I need to be careful? Or is this some kind of conversation that needs to continuously be had with your psychiatrist? There's different types of medications and some of them your body will will get physiologically dependent on and can potentially become addictive.
And there are some that are not. So in the first case, those are usually medications that we try to say don't take it every day. Space it out as much as you can, only take it as needed. Where if you're taking like, for example, you brought up Prozac or if you're taking Prozac and it helps you every day, there's this big debate on whether, you know, our depression and anxiety, chronic things. Yeah. Are they cyclical? Like, do they come and they go?
Do you only use them when they come every year or two when you have a really bad anxiety spell or whatever. And, you know, I think there's different debates within psychiatry on on are these are mood and anxiety disorders. Are they always chronic? Are they always episodic or are they situational? Okay. So conventionally what we do is if someone has anxiety to the point where they have to be hospitalized, oftentimes they'll leave with a medication, say it's Prozac or Zoloft or something.
And conventionally we say take it for about eight months to a year. If symptoms improve, we try it off. Okay. In the first year, about 20 to 30% of people off medications will notice symptoms coming back. Okay. And then in about three years off medication, about half of people will notice symptoms come back. So I always tell families and patients, I don't know which 50% you're going to be in after you're off.
You know, we don't really have good markers to tell us who's who you'll be, but it's always worth trialing off. With parents and guardians as adolescents go through some levels of nature and environment, like we were talking before this how the pandemic has such had such a major impact on just not only our mental, physical, everything in our daily lives. We went through some huge part of history. With parents and guardians.
It feels like sometimes the situations are kind of blown out of proportion whether you did something and now your parents are kind of frustrated at you and they're like, You need to go on medication. How do I talk to my parents about needing medication for my mental illness when I need to realize, Hey, I need the help rather than them pushing me to get the help that I need?
Yeah, I mean, I think that's always worth an exploration with somebody who prescribes about what we believe a medication can do for us. Because there's times where parents are pressuring someone to get a med because they think, Hey, there's something wrong with my kid. And our question is, what's actually wrong? Is it your child or is there something disrupted in this relational matrix? Like we don't live in vacuums, right?
No. And then the same thing, like every time someone comes to me and says, hey, I think I need a medication. Hey, what do you think the medication is going to do? So I always say, like, if you want to talk to someone, like talk to a friend or a family member about being on a medication. The way to approach it is to say, this is what I'm hoping a medication will do, and this is because this is what I've tried and it hasn't worked.
Like, I'm I'm, I'm trying to sleep early and I'm trying I'm turning off all the lights and I'm drinking sleepy time tea or whatever it is. And I still, like my mind is racing. I can't sleep. I wake up, I have no energy. I'm even trying to exercise. It's not working. Like if I could just slow these thoughts down at night or Yeah, I've tried everything already. This is why I think a medication will help. I think people are generally very understanding if you present it in that way.
But I think when you come really vague like something's off and I need medications like people. Sometimes people aren't as supportive. Yeah. So I always think like, I think you're kind of getting this communication is the most important thing and find and specificity in the communication is
important. So if, if you're someone that wants to explore and you want your friends or your family members to help you, I would say like this is the specific thing that I've already tried non-medication around and it's not working.
We're trying to break the mental health stigma these days because it feels sometimes like there's this massive rock around people who or this boulder around their ankles just trying to be like, I take this medication because I deal with a mental illness and I'm trying to better myself.
And just having that self awareness is what we try to push on the podcast is because if you understand yourself, understand the feelings that you're going through, you can understand how to kind of get a grasp on your life as a parent, though, When do I decide that my child needs medication? How do I even have this conversation without my child getting like defensive? Have you had any kind of experience where you had to talk to the parent to be like, Hey, listen, your child does need this?
Is there anything that you went through personally? Yeah. I mean, I think I this happens almost every day with me. Either the child wants to be on a medication and the parent doesn't want them to or the other way around. The parents like, hey, I think you should really take this. And again, it's about taking a step back and looking at what are we specifically trying to address and how do we communicate about it better. And I do a lot of, you know.
A lot of times I do a lot of family work around not just medications, but symptoms and family life and things like that. And the key is to see that, you know, everybody has to make a compromise. I think a lot of times if a child feels like a parent is forcing them to take a medication, they probably feel like they don't have a say in their life outside of just the medication thing. Right. So it's about like, hey, it's not just about the medication here.
Sometimes it is. Sometimes it's like, Hey, yeah, it helped me, but the side effects were horrible. Can I try something else? And that's something I can help them with too. Right. But sometimes it's like, you know, my mom and dad don't let me see friends. They don't let me do anything. I stay at home. They're so worried about me all the time. And now they want me to take a medication I don't want to take. Right. And so we take the more global picture where it's not really.
Is it really about the medication or is it about something else? So I try to explore first, like what's what's the reason for not wanting to for pushing it from patient or family or not wanting it, right. Is it symptom, Is it side effects that happened? Is it you know, someone else had really bad side effects. Is it like some a lot of times people feel like medication is a crutch.
Right. Right. And that's a that's a discussion I have a lot like, I think, you know, it's a tool, just like with with anything else, right? Like, you see me, there's like a protein shake thing here. Yeah, it's a tool, right? You know, like, do I absolutely need it to optimize my workout? No, but, like, does it help? Sure. Yeah. And so that's kind of how I view medications. They don't really treat an underlying cause, but they help with symptoms.
And if you're in a state where you're really struggling. They're a helpful tool to use. Now, fear is what I keep getting told by a lot of people who have come and talked about wanting to take medication. It's this feels like it's a cliff. And then the second they jump off the cliff, it's just a free dive. And they are so scared of what's going to happen next.
Do you have any words of encouragement for somebody who's looking down the cliff and it could just be a shallow pool of water that you just need to hop into rather than this massive thing that we blow up in our minds. Do you have anything that you could help somebody who's on the border? They just aren't sure whether they should do the medication or not. I mean, I say, you know, it's always your choice, right? And just because you start one doesn't mean you have to commit to it forever.
I know there's a lot of it feels like this sense of pressure that, okay, if I start it, then I'm committing to it. And, you know, the doctor expects me to take it and I don't want to let them down or whatever it is. But that's, you know, at the end of the day, it's your body and your choice. So I always say like, hey, I always go over all this like all the common side effects and say, you know, you're at a point where you're thinking about it already. It's not like it's a point of no return.
Yeah, you take it. I'm here. We can check up whenever. You know, I usually, you know, when I was working more outpatient and depending on the severity of symptoms. But if we made a med change, I would check up on somebody anywhere between a week and a couple of months after. And I. You usually have access to your doctors through some sort of MyChart messaging nowadays. So I always say like, if you notice anything that feels wonky at all, just MyChart message me.
Okay, we'll get back to you as soon as I can. So again, it's not a commitment forever. It's not like it's not like a surgical procedure or a tattoo, you know, it's not permanent. Yeah. And for our listeners, remember that these are things that you decide. It is your choice in the end.
And it isn't. And I think that's one of the hardest things that people can't seem to grasp is like they feel like it's going to be forever, that I'm going to take these pills forever and that nothing is going to be fixed. But as you're saying, you're completely right. It is truly a correction of when you feel when you're starting to feel better in
yourself. How can I someone who is trying to help others, how do I help them navigate the mental health care system and find the right resources and support to be given to them? Yeah, I mean, that's a great question because unfortunately, our system here is really fragmented. I think it's important to know the different levels of care. So there's therapy. There's seeing a psychiatrist for medication management.
If you're having an acute crisis, like if you're having a super bad panic attack or you're really thinking about harming yourself or maybe you're already harmed yourself, but you need help right away, that's when you go to the emergency room and from the emergency room you can be directed to an inpatient or you're hospitalized or kind of like these intensive outpatient or partial hospitalization programs.
So an intensive outpatient program is usually about a month and it's usually three times a week. And you do some group work, some individual work. It's usually happening in the evenings so people can go after work or after school where a partial hospitalization is usually five days a week and it's 9 to 3 like a day day treatment program. So I think starting with the levels of care and knowing like just thinking about which one might be most helpful to you is a good place to start.
You know, unfortunately a lot of. A mental health care reimbursement is not on par with with other medical specialties. So a lot of really good therapists and psychiatrists, unfortunately, don't take insurance, especially in the city like this, where there's a lot of wealth. Right. And that's kind of just the tragedy of our fragmented system. Oftentimes, like if if you have Medicaid or Medicare is your primary insurer, you can have access to what are called community mental health centers.
So I would just the best way to find them is to Google like your county and say community mental health. Okay, Sometimes there's resources there too. Nice. Thank you for sharing the resources. I know there's going to be a lot of people who are wondering what's the next step? Where do I go from here? How now that I want to take medication, how do I find the right direction?
And you can. Always also look call the number on the back of your insurance card and see which providers are in network and they might tell you who they should tell you who's still taking patients and who's not. Nice. I feel like now in our day and age with social media and you probably have seen this a lot, where we've begun to self-diagnose like the second something's wrong with us, we go to w w dot webmd.com and next thing you know, you feel like you're dying.
And this amount of overwhelming pressure feels like on top of you. Do you believe nowadays that are we in the position of that self diagnosis is good, that maybe they get a better understanding of what they're dealing with? Or do you see it being becoming more of an issue down the road when someone's freaking out in front of you and like, I have this worst anxiety and I need to I don't know what to do. Yeah, I think especially with mental health.
Like the diagnoses in in psychiatry and psychology in the DSM, which is the diagnostic manual for mental illness is. Is the diagnosis a descriptor of symptoms, Right. It doesn't really correlate to anything. It doesn't have a neurobiological correlate, for example. So like, it's different in that regard because it's not very specific, right? It's not an exact thing. This diagnosis is not. Corresponding with an underlying illness.
And what I always like to tell, say and this is borrowing from a psychologist in Colorado. He used to be a Colorado engineer, Jonathan Shedler. He says a diagnosis is not a disease, right? Yeah. And I think there's there's real trouble when the this mental health diagnosis becomes to signify some underlying disease. Right. Because that's that's shifting your understanding of self of there's something intrinsically or biologically wrong with me.
Right. Where there's no doubt there's biological components of it. Right. But there's also things that are still in your ability to to help, to overcome with or without medication. And the diagnosis is not your identity. It's not how you relate to other people. It is descriptor of the symptoms you have.
And so if someone comes to me and say, I think I have this, I'll say, Well, which these are the symptoms you're saying you have, which symptom is the most functionally impairing and how do we address it? For me, it's less about the underlying diagnosis and more so can you still have a healthy relationship with yourself? And obviously you're looking for a diagnosis because you're trying to understand what's going on with you internally. So let's do that together, right?
Nice. Let's find out something's off. The diagnosis doesn't really give us a full explanation, right? Diagnosis here is just a description of a symptom cluster that's not specific to only you and what you're going through is specific to you. So let's figure out what else is going on inside. I think that's a quote of the podcast episode. Your diagnosis is not your identity. I really like that. That kind of really stuck with me about because it is true. Like it's not it's not who you are.
It's just just a spectrum of what you're dealing with and that the spectrum doesn't know the environment that you're in. The amount of like all of the things that go on in your daily life, it's just it's just supposed to help you, kind of push you in the direction of getting the help that you need. So we're coming to the end.
And I think our final question is, is I'm somebody who struggles with a lot of different mental health issues, and I'm trying to get people to understand how to get a grasp of that, whatever they're dealing with, that they aren't alone in these days. Do you have any words of encouragement for anybody who's going through whatever they're dealing with in their mental health issues these days? Yeah, I mean, I think the most important thing is find people.
You can be open, you know, people that you feel comfortable opening up to that you know, we all if you can have a good supportive group of friends or family members that can really help you just talk about some things. And also like having a good relationship with a therapist is also very helpful, like kind of just always being introspective and reflective. I think the important thing is.
Sometimes we get so bogged down by our daily lives is when I used to see a lot of graduate students as patients. What I used to do is instead of scheduling the studying and all this stuff, first, we would schedule all the fun leisure stuff first, because what happens is people procrastinate studying. They never do that and then they miss out on all the fun stuff. So we always put like, no matter what, you're going to go to this party or watch this TV show or whatever it may be.
So to make sure you're always doing things. Even when it's hard to get the energy to do them. To do things that bring you joy as much as you can. So I think that two big things is social connection is important and don't lose your hobbies because it's very easy to get bogged down by depression, by anxiety, by. By social pressures, by work to stop doing the things you like.
And that's a great point because truly doing the things you love will bring you so much joy and so much happiness that a lot of other things won't. So. All I want to remind you guys and again, thank you, Tarek, for coming on, explaining a lot about medication and truly kind of changed my perspective of how I think about it. And we hope that we changed your perspective.
We just want to remind you that please, please, please remember that you are not alone and that we will catch you on the next episode. Thanks again for coming on and we hope to see you on more future episodes, but not over here. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it. What's up, guys? Thanks for listening to today's episode. If you're looking for more of our content and merch information, be sure to check us out at menshealth.com.
Org. Keep an eye out for our skits and upcoming episode information. Feel free to reach out to us on IG. Our DMS are always open and please remember you're not alone.