¶ Grace, Boundaries, and Intent
Today's guest is Devale Ellis. He's an actor, a father, a husband and a great example, at least on the internet. We'll find out how true that is in just a few moments.
And this is why I said it may come across as misogynistic in this day and time, but my pops don't believe in the 50 50.
Me either, so shout out to pop.
You said you want to have another baby. You're supposed to do this, to commit this. I'm making this money. I'm here eight hours. I worked out, I did this. You're just lazy, she goes. I'm not fucking lazy, Devale, I'm pregnant. You don't know what women go through. I would say this about masculinity being a man is about being consistent.
What do you think about gentle parenting?
It didn't come from my ancestors. I gentle parent sometimes, and sometimes I knock them in their chest. This is why I think black masculinity has
¶ Marriage as a Partnership
to be discussed, and it has to be discussed on platforms that are narrated by us. No one else outside of us understand what we go through.
Welcome to the xoMAN podcast. I'm your host, Kiara Walker. They say men don't talk. They hold it all in, never let their guard down. But here we like to do things differently. I sit down with Black men from all walks of life actors, singers, entrepreneurs, athletes and everyday guys to peel back the layers of who they are, beyond the stereotypes, a space where Black men get to be real, raw and unfiltered.
We're talking about relationships, love, success, struggles, fears and the parts of masculinity that don't always get the spotlight. Some conversations will challenge what you think you know. Some might make you laugh and some might just make you look at the men in your life a little differently. So, whether you're here to learn or just hear some dope conversations, you're in the right place. So pull up, listen in and let's have the conversations that matter.
It's time for the xoMAN podcast to begin. Today's guest is Devale Ellis. He is a former NFL player. He is a bestselling author. He's an actor, a father, a husband and a great example, at least on the internet. We'll find out how true that is in just a few moments. Welcome, Devale. How are you.
Thank you for having me. I appreciate you. I'm feeling well. How are you feeling?
Feeling great. I'm very excited.
¶ Red Flag Green Flag Segment
Thank you so much for being here. This is a fun game. It's just a little red flag, green flag. I'm going to present a few situations to you and I want you to tell me if you think this is something that you feel or another person should feel is a red flag or a green flag. Okay, the first one is not telling your partner about a friend of the opposite sex.
Not telling your partner about where are we in the relationship?
It's serious. Maybe not married. That's a red flag.
The reason why I say it's a red flag is because you have to give people the option to stay or go or deal with the situation. When you choose to not tell them, you're taking away their choices. I don't agree with taking away choices. Give them all the information. Let them figure it out.
Having a personal bank account that your spouse cannot access.
Kadina and I have personal bank accounts. Everything funnels from our business but I have personal bank accounts. Everything funnels from our business, but we both have our personal bank account, because there's sometimes I want to surprise my wife I don't want her to know what I'm buying her, or I want to do something that I want you know, so we both have that. That's not a red flag for me.
What about if your family and friends don't like the person that you're with? Oh, um, I think that's a conversation I wouldn't say automatically red or green because you have to ask your family why they don't like her. So it's a yellow, it's a yellow.
I say it's a yellow flag because families
¶ Father's Role
be hurt and families be broken and sometimes families be the reason why you lose out on a good person. So you would have to ask your family why you don't like this person I wouldn't automatically put it on the person and are you looking out on a good person? So you would have to ask your family why you don't like this person.
I wouldn't automatically put it on the person. And are you looking out for me or are you looking out for your idea of what you want me to have?
You see what I'm saying. Because, you know what happens to a lot of people, what A lot of families don't like the fact that you are no longer going to be
¶ Social Media and Relationships
as accessible to the family. If you know, I've seen it a lot of times Dude meets a good girl, or a guy meets a good man, and their family got problems with everything. And then I start to look at it. I'm like you know why your family got problems with everything? Because you used to be that single person that they could always call on when they need something. But now, when they call on you, you with your person, and then it's. I don't like that bitch she taking it.
And I think, oh, is he nigga? Who is you controlling? Wait a minute, I want to be here, like you know what I'm saying. So, yeah, I want to be. So I would I say yellow flag that?
okay. And then the last one is it a red flag to have a bunch of single friends as a married person? Is it? Is it a red flag, uh-huh? No, it's not a red flag how you choose to spend time with them, single friends and the reason why I say it's not a red flag is because what if you're the one in the friend group who got married first? right like all of my college, like group of friends. It was like eight of us.
Somebody had to be the first one and we're not gonna tell him you married now, don't hang out with us. We were still doing guys trips, but you have to learn once you married. Now that guy trip can't be four days and you go to the strip club every day and the random chicks you bring back can't come to your room. My G, you know what I'm saying. So it's how you spend time with your single friends. Yeah, so it's not.
¶ Behind The Man Segment
I don't think it's a red flag.
I really want to know how you got to where you are today, Like what was your childhood like?
Well, it's funny, people always ask this because they hear my history and they're like oh you played in the nfl. You must have been, you know, wanted to be an athlete never wanted to be an athlete, really never um. The first movie I ever saw was boys in the hood right when I tell a story. I always point out it's a funny anecdote, but my father bootlegged it. Well, he, he didn't actually bootleg it, he bought it from a bootlegger.
Uh-huh, we live in brooklyn, we, we grew up in Brooklyn Kenmore Movie Theater. They used to have bootleggers all the time. So he bought Boys in the Hood and we're watching it. And I was five years old 1989. And I remember watching all of these young men captivated by the story, and I remember saying like damn, I want to hold people's attention like this. So my dad was like come sit right here. I watched it, I fell in love with the movie.
But then I just fell in love with the idea of captivating an audience. I was like man how could I be in movies? And you know, growing up in Brooklyn in the 90s there wasn't a lot of, you know, artistic places for young men. You know for lack of a better word you know homophobia was like rampant. You know if you did anything artistic or dance wise or music. You was considered soft.
So I just leaned into sports, um, I leaned into martial arts, um, I did jujitsu and taekwondo, played basketball and I just was like you know what, I'm going to get me a basketball scholarship so that I can go to school for free. And I stopped growing at about five to five, eleven. So in high school actually, I was only five, seven oh wow five seven. I was a late bloomer. Five, seven and um, I could dunk a basketball because I was extremely athletic.
Football coach says yo, you should think about playing football. I was like why he was. Just like how many 5'7 basketball players do you know? True. I was like very, very true. So I was like you know what I'm going to get? Football scholarship, work on my craft, go get a degree in speech, communication and rhetorical studies and performance. I can own a brownstone, live in a basement, go upstairs do my art. And I was like that was going to be my plan and I had that plan as early as 16.
Have you always been a man who was like planning out his entire life?
Yeah, to be honest, I just I feel like God has always given me foresight. You know, like this is where you are now Devale, but this is not where you're going to spend the rest of your life. So what you need to do is focus on creating a plan to get to where you want to be. Like. I've always had those visions, you know, when I was young, my parents used to tell me like you're different. You know embrace being different. You don't have to follow anyone else's plans, so that's what I did.
And how did your parents kind of encourage you to continue to make plans and to chase your dreams?
The funny thing is my parents never picked something for me. You know how some parents is like my son is going to be a doctor. No, my parents are always like what do you want to do? And my father said I'll support anything you want to do. At one point in my life I wanted to be a musician right, my father a musician right my father got me a keyboard. He said the only thing you have to promise me is that you won't quit.
So he's like if you start it, you got to see it all the way through, and I think that type of support allowed me to build the confidence necessary to try different things. Yeah, and then once I realized that I was good at certain things, I really leaned into those things. So I big up my parents a lot because they weren't forcing me to do anything. They never shot my dreams down.
They never were just like oh, you'll never they were always like if you want it bad enough, work for it now, what kind of dad did you have?
where was he very hands-on, very supportive, or he was working all the time and you didn't get to see him like? What kind of situation was that like?
my father was. I was a latchkey kid okay you know, growing up in Brooklyn, so I had my key literally around my neck with the beads and I went places by myself as long as I got home. My parents were cool. My father worked multiple jobs.
He was either working as a bouncer, but I mean he had a full-time job as a computer programmer, for at the time it was chemical bank which became Chase Manhattan Bank and then, uh, he used to do that and at nighttime he would be bouncing, so I didn't see my father that often. and then he used to do that, and at nighttime he would be bouncing, so I didn't see my father that often. And then he was a mentor, a mentor to a group of young men at our church, salem Missionary Baptist Church.
I watched my father be more of a mentor to other young men than he was a dad to me.
I wanted to ask you that. My grandfather has been like that, and his kids and I've seen it. It's crazy because you have so um, so many relationships with other kids, but because they're taking up your time, what about me? Did you ever feel a little jealous? Always, yeah.
I was super jealous. There was, there was a bunch of young men that I was um jealous of, um, sean Freeman, who is now my financial advisor and state planner, because he had my dad's attention from young. Uh, chris Jackson, kevin Caesar these were guys that I grew up idolizing but my dad was helping raise.
And now I think back hindsight's, 20-20, because I got four sons and I have friends and I have people now, like my boy, matt, who's sitting here, who is Dakota's godfather, who now I won't say certain things to them, I'll just go straight to their godfather or someone else and be like yo, you need to talk to me about this, because I know they won't listen to me. They're tired of hearing my voice. I'm the same guy that wakes them up in the morning make up your bed, brush your teeth, work on this.
After a while they get kind of drowned out. So I think that my father had hindsight foresight to realize that my son or my sons because it's me and my brother they're not always going to listen to me. Let me surround them with good young men and if I pour into these young men, that'll be the village that will help raise my sons. And so said, so done to this day. Me and Chris Jackson still talk, sean Freeman is my state planner, and me and Kevin Caesar still talk. So it's funny.
I went from being jealous of those young men to them being my confidants when I needed somebody that's good, good yeah, what would you say your dad taught you, whether directly or indirectly, about what it is to be a man?
The biggest thing my father taught me was consistency and being still and it wasn't just my father man. Every summer, for eight to 10 weeks, I lived with my grandparents, because we grew up in Brooklyn and my parents didn't want us in the street. So they sent us down to Morristown Tennessee.
I have no idea where that is, but I've met his country. It's super country, it's like Morristown, tennessee, population 700 people.
But no, it's not that low, but it's a small city. I watched my grandfather, who was an army guy, get up every day, 5 am, every single day, and he went to work. And he came home and when he got his checks, he gave his checks to my grandmother. My grandmother provided everything for the household and whatever was left over, my grandfather took and did what he wanted.
I watched my father do the same thing and I watched my father work every single day, go on a train every single day, walk back home and I'm like dang. Being a man is about being consistent. It's about, uh, not only providing financially, but safety emotionally. Like my mom, my dad and my grandfather were very stoic men because they grew up in a generation where men didn't talk. They weren't vulnerable, but they were there.
Yeah.
And to me, when I think about being a man, I think about presence. Like my father's presence curated our whole house. When he walked in the house in a good mood, we were in a good mood. When he was a little off, we knew something was off. And I try to do the same thing with my family today.
Now when you talk about providing and some of those traditional things that um your father taught you and your grandfather taught you. What ways do you do that in your everyday life?
like actual examples um, I mean well. Well, first of all, providing like. I know this may come off as misogynistic, but I feel like it's my responsibility as a man to pay for everything like my my wife had to have four children, three of them naturally. I've I've learned through the process that carrying a child is not easy, you know.
And the reason why I say I learned through the process because when you haven't experienced your wife carrying a child and you haven't, like physically been there, you don't know what women go through, and my dad was the first person that told me. When you ask a woman to lay down and have your children, it is your responsibility to make sure that all of her needs are met, because there may be a chance she can't go back to work. What if she gets sick? What if she deals with postpartum depression?
What if the child has issues and someone needs to be there? My father was like that's your responsibility, don't put that on nobody else. And this, this is why I said it may come across as misogynistic in this day and time, but my pops don't believe in the 50, 50 bullshit me either.
So shout out to pops.
Yeah, my pop saying he not with that yeah he the one that told me like yo, you asked that woman to marry you. You better be able to pay for everything in that house. So I took that on. You know what I'm saying. And of course now things, times have changed, but that's just my way of looking at it. So since that's my way of looking at it, I make sure every morning my wife wakes up.
She don't got to worry about how the light's coming on, you know who's paying the rent, but also I make sure that I'm present. How you feeling today? Because I was that old school dad, like my grandfather, my father, who didn't speak much. I provided. I came in the house and I expected things to be a certain way because I provided. And I learned that about the five-year mark in my marriage that that was a bad husband. You know what I'm saying. That's what I've heard.
Yeah.
And the thing is I had to learn that and I like talking about this because, yeah, it's me being vulnerable, but it's being honest, so that someone else don't make the same mistakes I did. You know, people think that you know why was your marriage bad? Oh, he must have been cheating, she must have been cheating, she must have been spending all the money. They must have been beating on each other. No, I was a bad husband because I wasn't present emotionally, you know what I'm saying.
I wasn't present spiritually. I wasn't concerned about what she needed outside of the resources, because I was too busy focused on that one linear thing I got to provide. Yeah. And I learned that after about five years of marriage and we had our second child, that I had to be more.
How did you learn that, though?
Was it a conversation. It was a conversation that wasn't going the way I wanted it to go and then it was kind of thrown at me. Every time my wife gets pregnant which is funny because you've been pregnant four times she does something special. The second time she was pregnant. She was trying to do something special and trying to wait it out and I didn't know she was pregnant. We also were together on saying you know what? The first time we almost lost you because she had a cervical tear.
She had a cervical tear when she was having Jackson, had 24 stitches, almost bled out. Oh, my goodness. So at that point I was just like I'm not having no more kids because I want my wife. You know me. Kay and Jackson will be fine, just the three of us. Yeah. She said she wanted to have another child. I was like, cool, I'll do it. But in order for us to do that, we got to be in the best shape of our life, because I'm not losing my wife.
So she was working out, I was working out, and this day in particular, she was in the gym and she was not working out. She was sitting in my office. And now I'm getting ready to go home, my babe let's go. And she's just like well, I haven't worked out yet and I lost it. I wasrated. I was projecting all of the issues on the day on my wife. I started off See, this is the problem. You said you want to have another baby. You're supposed to do this to commit this. I'm making this money.
I'm here Eight hours. I worked out. I did this. You just lazy, da, da, da, da da. We screaming at each other back and forth. She goes, I'm not fucking. And I was like why didn't you lead with that? Like why?
why do we have to have this screaming back? Why do we have to?
do this. She's like I was trying to surprise you and I was going to do something and I was just like I felt like the biggest amount of egg on my face. And then it was that moment like I hugged her and I was like I'm so sorry, like I didn't know. And then even she noticed she was like I know you didn't know and I was trying to find the right way to tell you. But I said in this moment we are not going to have the same type of pregnancy that we had with Jax.
Whatever you want from this moment is yours. I got you and in me trying to be of service to her, I learned that me being of service created a woman that is now willing to be of service to me, and that's why when we wrote our book the Counterintuitive Approach to Getting Everything you Want Out of your Relationship it's counterintuitive because we often think that in order for me to get what I want, I got to tell her and I got to make sure.
No, in order for me to get what I want, let me help her get what she wants. Now she has the space, autonomy and latitude to maneuver and help me and once again, it may sound misogynistic, but I feel like, as a man in a leadership position, that is providing my wife with the lifestyle to do that. That's how she can reciprocate it. And I know a lot of people will be like, well, why you got to do that first for her?
Well, I believe that if I'm in a leadership position, I should have to do it first, like we can't say we're leaders, but then it's like you got to do this the same time. That's not how fucking leaderships work.
I'm sorry, pardon my french that's all right, but to me that's not how leadership works.
If you proclaim to be a leader, leaders lead from the front. Let me show you how I can be of service to you first, and then, hopefully, you reciprocate, and then you use discernment. If she doesn't reciprocate it, then it's like, hey, you're not the one for me.
You know, what I'm saying.
This is not what I'm looking for in a relationship, so that's how I try to live my life.
That makes sense. Y'all have already had four children. That's a lot. Do you want more?
We did. We wanted a fifth and we were going to try for the girl. But after the fourth she suffered from postpartum preeclampsia and we almost lost her again had to rush her to the hospital. She had a, I think her blood pressure was like 200 over one something. They told us that at that time that if my wife were to go to sleep and we didn't bring her to the hospital, she could have a stroke.
Oh, I know you were like absolutely not.
And I said no. I said all right, no more kids. She was getting on birth control and then she started to deal with an iron deficiency because she was having heavy bleedings and she was having blood clots. And I'll be like bro. So I almost lost you twice. You did three natural births, two at the house. Okay, this is my time now to take over as a man and say I'll get a vasectomy because I don't want you to have to deal with birth control, so let me be the one on birth control.
So I'm gonna snip, snip it, ease these joints and then, when I snip, snip it ease them.
Everything got better do you find that a lot of men, just when you're talking to friends, maybe they don't want to do it. I know in my life it's like that. What is it about the vasectomy that you think a lot of men are anti-vasectomy?
I think it's and I don't think it's just men, I think it's just humanity. Like women are anti-hysterectomy right, men are anti-vasectomy because you're taking away a part of me that creates. No one wants to take away the part of them that creates. I had a little bit of vasectomy guilt afterwards. I was doing it like wholeheartedly for my wife you know what I'm saying and then afterwards I was like man, like I can't create any more children.
You know, you look at your children and you're just like. Those are four little versions of me. There was a little part of me that was like man, like it does feel like I gave up a part of who I am. So I think some men, you know, may feel like that. Some men are also just immature and think that if you you know, I've heard so such things you get a vasectomy. Now you're going bald. Now you have erectile dysfunction. Now you're not watery, you know.
I thought my nut was going to be watery and I was like I can't walk around with no watery nut, like you know. I'm saying like the consistency is what my wife's used to.
I don't want it to change but um, there's so many different things that you get stigmatized and I think people run with the stigmas, you know, rather than doing the research, because I can tell you the nuts not watery okay, my wife can confirm um my hair actually started growing back because I wasn't stressed as much oh, that's good, you still got your hairline, still got my hair, still got my hairline. It's not painted on, y'all you see, I can throw some water on here, baby. Ain't this all me?
But all of the things that I thought was going to happen didn't happen either. So I think it's just a greater form of education. You know if you put in erectile dysfunction, you see a bunch of articles for men how to fix this. You put in vasectomy. There's no articles. You actually have to do the research.
So I think that's what it is now with the children that you do have? Um, what ways are you kind of instilling the same values that your parents taught you into them about manhood?
I'm just trying to be the example. Um, to be honest, your kids I've watched this. I was a mentor for over 15 years your kids are not going to listen to anything you say. I know people think that you know you know I talk and I'm, you know I'm an orator. They're not gonna get fucked yeah they're gonna watch you and they're gonna be like my dad. I see my kids. My dad treats my mom like this my dad opens the door. My dad don't let my mom put gas in the car. My dad will focus on these things.
So that's what I'm supposed to do, and my thing is children gives you another chance at life. I have four different opportunities now to do my life all over again. I have to make sure that they do it right. So it's making me walk right. You know some things I might want to do. I can't do that because you're watching you know, what I'm saying. It's like I actually just finished my second book deal, that I'm writing a book called Raising Kings, how fatherhood saved me from myself.
Oh wow, fatherhood made me a better person, not because it was just like it was crazy, because I was like you know. I want to make them better than me. Yeah. So, like, how could I make them better than me without showing them a better version of me? You know, and realistically, better version of me. You know, and realistically, that's what you know. It's hard, you know. Don't do that, you know, don't? You know, treat women with respect, but I'm out here womanizing, you know what I'm saying.
It doesn't make sense, so it just, you know, I hold myself accountable now with your kids do.
What do you think about the idea of gentle parenting?
I see so much stuff online and some people are so anti and other people love it to be be honest with you, I don't think that you can put, you can't cast a broad net over anything. I gentle parent sometimes and sometimes I knock them in their chest. Balance, it is balance and this is my reason why. Right, you can gentle parent your life away. You know who ain't going to be gentle the world right Now. Let's think about where gentle parenting came from. Didn't come from our ancestors.
Right, some people are allowed to be gentle. Right, some people can make a mistake publicly and be told it's okay then others yeah we forgive you understand you know, you're a young man, you know you have your whole life ahead of you. Then I'm gonna be frank black men in particular do not get that same leniency. From the time you start going through puberty and you're taller than your counterparts, now you're considered a man.
That's why so many young black men are facing adult jail time for making the same mistake as their white counterparts. That's just a fact. 80% of the jail population are black men who over 80 of that population took plea deals not to have to do more time so the odds are stacked. The odds are stacked I'm not gonna allow my children to believe that they can walk out in the world like their white counterparts and be treated the same.
It's just not the facts have you had to have a lot of hard conversations?
all the time to tell them.
I know what you think, that this is your friend. But yes, y'all look different this.
This is. This is why I think black masculinity has to be discussed, and it has to be discussed on platforms that are narrated by us, because no one else outside of us understand what we go through. They can't possibly fathom it, and and that's part of the white privilege People think white privilege is a made up thing.
White privilege is the fact that when you wake up in the morning and you step outside, you're not worried at all about the fact that if you misstep or you're in the wrong neighborhood you could lose your life.
People will look at white people in a neighborhood and think the neighborhood is changing for the better when they see them, and it's the opposite with us, no matter who it is Not even just changing.
If they see a black person in a neighborhood that they don't belong in or not, that they don't belong in, that they're not used to, you automatically don't belong there. But if you see a white person in a black neighborhood, the neighborhood is changing. That, in part, too, is white privilege, and white people don't understand that, but I don't want to say it's black dis-privilege, but it's just a reality. It's something to consider. Yes, and we live in Georgia. Right, we live in Georgia.
There's places that are predominantly black, but if you step across that line, they don't want you there. Right, my children have friends of all different nationalities. I have to have these conversations. Where are you going? Oh, you're going to Cumming. Okay, cumming Georgia is not too fond of us, right? What do you mean? Let me give you a history lesson of some of the things that have happened in Cumming Georgia. Those are things that white people don't have to do.
Right.
You know. So I think that for me Love and women.
Yeah.
The first thing I don't teach my sons about love. The first thing I teach them about women is respect of women. You see, your mom, we have a big thing in the house called protect the queen right, so they all know when mom is in the. Wherever mom is, we got to know where the exits are. I'm just teaching them how to be chivalrous, because that's what my dad and my mom did. You're in the presence of a woman, a woman that you like or you might want to care for.
You have to know everything about that environment yeah where the exits, who are the people, who was with her, who's not with her, who was with you, how she may be feeling based on everything's going around. These are things I teach them just as a protector. Right then, I try to explain to them. I told the story recently on our podcast about um menstrual cycles, because they have a mom and they go. My wife goes to a menstrual cycle.
We were on vacation and she had an accident and it bled through the cushion and when that happens, and it happens right. So it just happened to start raining. We were in Dominican Republic and Kay was like oh my gosh, like I see her automatically get embarrassed. It starts raining. I grab the cushion, I I turn it over, I put it on my head and then the guy comes with the umbrella. I was like Mr Ellis, you want me? I said no, get the women, get the boys. You know what I'm saying.
So then we go upstairs. Now I have the cushion. I walk upstairs and Jackson's like so why'd you have to put it on your head? I said because it's important for you to understand that your mom is going through something.
Right, if I make a big deal and then I'm like ew, and then all y'all are like ew then it gonna make your mom feel worse and he's like, okay, and I said you have to understand and empathize with the fact that women go through different things than we go through, and I'm just trying to teach them that women are different so that they don't approach every situation with. If she doesn't think like me or act like me, then something's wrong with her. Learn to empathize with people who are different.
Women are different from us biologically, so you have to understand all of their plights and once you learn to understand one, if you like them, you're going to have to learn to give them empathy and give grace when they do things differently than you. So that's ultimately what I'm trying to teach my boys Learn as much as you can about women so that you can understand the differences.
Have your children started dating, yet Nope, no. Do they have rules around that, or do you have rules that you haven't even shared with them yet because they're too young?
yeah, I haven't. I haven't shared any rules with my kids, but the biggest thing I do is I I teach them very early to understand the power of consent. I remember when jackson was nine he was at one of my homeboys cribs and she he has a daughter, so he texts me just like I'm just giving you a heads up. They was watching a movie and jackson put his arm around her around the couch and then she was sitting there for a minute and then Jackson moved it right so he was just like.
I'm just giving you a heads up that they're in that phase now yeah you know. So I spoke to Jackson. I was just like well, why'd you put your arm around her? And he was just like well, I see you do that with mommy. And I explained. I'm like well, you do understand that. You know, mommy is my friend. First and before you do anything, you have to ask for permission. He said well, I did.
I asked her if she was okay and she was like yes, but then after like 10 seconds she's like can you move your arm? so I moved it yeah, and I was like well, that's what consent is right, and in, the earlier you start with consent, it teaches young boys that consent has to be given throughout right. Like very simple you're doing something in the house, she wants you to stop you stop. You're doing something in the house, she wants you to stop. You stop. You're doing something in the car.
That doesn't mean that it's going to happen in the house. You're doing something downstairs, you want to go upstairs, she says stop. You have to learn to listen to that. So for me it's just teaching them consent early so that they value a woman's voice, because I think that that's not given to either side. Too often no one speaks to young ladies or young men early enough for them to understand how that interaction is supposed to go.
So oftentimes you get young women and young men who are trying to figure things out. Someone feels uncomfortable and then it becomes a thing. Let's have these conversations early.
Yeah, I also think that sometimes with women it's like we're kind of taught make a decision but we're not told it's okay to change your mind. So, you do end up in a situation where you want to speak up and you don't, and so I'm glad that you're explaining that to your son so that they can respect it.
Absolutely, because I don't think the blame ever falls on one party. All of these situations, especially with young men and young women, are different, so you can't blame one party. All of these situations, especially with young men and young women, are different, so you can't blame one party. But what we can do is look back at history and say you know what we haven't done?
We haven't done a good enough job of educating the younger generation about sex, about commitment, about content or consent. You- know, what. I'm saying so I think that we should all just do a better job, men and women, teaching young men and young women. But I'm going gonna do the job of teaching my boys yeah, um, what about with your friends?
what is your relationship like with them on a day-to-day, with the things that you talk about? Do you ever find yourself having to have serious talks with them and kind of guiding them? That's? That's every day like I've.
I've surrounded myself with the type of men that I know are going to challenge me and hold me accountable. I'm around, I'm married. So most of my friends are married or in serious relationships or looking to be married. Because I think it's important for you to surround yourself with the type of person who's living the same type of lifestyle as you. It's hard as a married man if all your friends are single and they want to go do single things, which is okay.
But if you're the only married person doing single things. You look crazy. So I surround myself with friends who want to live the same lifestyle, and you know what we constantly do we challenge each other. Are you healthy? Are you working on your gut health? Are you working out? How's your mental health? Are you being what you claim you want to be for your wife? My friends and I talk about this, we have group chats and we check each other. When's?
the last time you've been on date night with your wife because you talking about how you're not getting sex? When's the last time you've done something for her to make sure that she's in the position to want to give you that? And we'd be like you know what. You're right. You're right, let me do this. You know, you know what I'm saying like yeah because we I, I want to have the type of men that'll point out to me like the value slacking, because that's how you stay on top of your game.
I don't need people pleasers around me because I'm not going to be a people pleaser. If I see one of my homies doing something crazy, I'm like nah, bro, that ain't where it's at. So that's me and my boys. That's how we do it with finances, we do it with religion, we do it with. The biggest thing right now for us is mental health. You know you lose a couple friends in their 30s to suicide or to alcoholism, or you know, after a while you start realizing like man, you ain't.
You know, you ain't young, no more.
Yeah, I turned 40 this year.
You know what I'm saying? I have friends who have 20-year-old kids. So then when you start looking at your nephews and your nieces and they're like, oh shoot, they can drink.
Legally yeah.
Like things become more valuable. Yeah, so that's what we talk about the more valuable stuff.
When you're talking to your friends and holding them accountable and helping them with any mental health issues, just being a friend Outside of the group chat. What kind of things are you doing to be supportive and be a friend?
Well, I mean we try to get like outside of the group chat is routine check-ins. Call somebody like the group chat ain't enough, because people could put a face on. You know what I'm saying a lot of time. I'm cool man, I'm good inside they hurting. It's routine check-ins. Yo come by the crib yeah no saying let's put one in the air, let's grab a drink, let's sit outside and talk. Let me look in your eyes, let me understand that what you're telling me is true.
So for us it's that taking time for ourselves. We may do a quick vacation, go watch a game, do some things outside of the house, because men often fall into the routine of I got to provide, I got to protect, which means I can only be two places I can be at work or I can be home. And I'm only speaking from my perspective because I'm a married man. Yeah. But that becomes redundant, right Like? We all have this part of ourselves especially and we're talking about masculinity.
There's part of masculinity where you have to look within yourself to be a better version of yourself for yourself. You can't always do it for your wife or your kids or your coworkers, and you can't always do it for your wife or your kids or your coworkers, and a lot of that is searching for who you are. So a lot of that is me talking to my friends and saying, well, what do you want to do? Don't give me a title of a job. Yeah. What do you want to do with your life?
Because if you show me a man who doesn't know what he wants to do with his life, that's a man that's lost, and you know what lost me and my friends. It's like yo, let's find something we all want to do so we can push forward in a positive way and if they are lost, what would you suggest?
like if anybody watching this has a friend, it's like, yeah, my homeboy is lost right now and I want to help him, but I also don't want to get sucked into his mess bro.
Just this is the biggest thing I tell people, especially in this day and age in order to get unlost, you have to get off social media. You have to, you have to. The digital area is not a real place. You have to go outside, you have to travel, you have to see the actual world. Everything that you're being fed through social media has been curated by someone for some reason.
You have to start going out in the world for yourself and find out what's your footprint in the world yourself and find out what's your footprint in the world. Get 10 toes down for what you want to do, and I I implore that to all men. Man, get off the phone, get off of it, get, get outside. Do something with your hands, work out on, build something you know, like, like, actually go see something. Don't just sit on the phone all day, play video games all day. I can't stand that.
I got some friends who play video games all day. I can't stand that. I've got some friends who play video games all day.
I'm not a video game player.
So I'm not shaming people who play video games, but to me it's just a distraction and taken away from something you could be doing to create a greater life.
It's absolutely a distraction. I like to play the Sims and that game will suck you in, and I have it on only my desktop so I can't play it everywhere and I give myself like one day where I can have a few hours, like every three months because, it is a waste of time. I have goals like what are you doing? I feel you on that, because when I see people playing games or just doing little things, it's okay to do something for fun and release every now and again, but that can't be your whole day.
I'm concerned what's happening?
you need to talk to somebody the truth is, a lot of men don't know how to find themselves, don't know how to find out what's next. I mean especially for black men. If you look at our history, 80 of the prison population is black men. So a lot of our black men and our black leaders either have been killed off, if you look at the civil rights movement, or they're in prison.
So you see a lot of young black men and women who are lost because the people who are supposed to be leading them can't even lead. Right, you take men out of the home. Then what do black women have to do? Black women have to go work. Then black women have to be men and women. Then it's oh, black women are aggressive. No, black women are not aggressive. Black women are trying to cover for all of the other gaps that exist, right. So?
So when you really think about why our generation, or this generation, seems to be lost, let's look at their history. Ask a young black person or a young, a blunt black man or woman like yo why don't you know what you want to do with your life?
Yeah.
I can guarantee you, well, I don't know who my father is, or my mom used to be out, or no one ever gave me the tools necessary to understand how to articulate or eloquently express my feelings. That's the biggest thing, especially for black men. A lot of black men do not know how to eloquently express their feelings, and the minute they start talking is he angry.
And it's like I'm not angry, I'm passionate, but no one ever explained to me how to express this passion in a way that doesn't come across as aggressive, and I think that if we, as a community of people, galvanize around each other and start to like build, we could do better. Like I don't think nothing is lost for anybody. Yeah. I'm not a cynic. I think there can be so much stuff for all of us.
Yeah.
Especially having platforms like this, where you're literally asking me a question and if you think about podcasts, right, people will see me and you on a podcast and the first thing they're gonna think is here come another battle of the sexist argument.
Right, you know what I'm saying. And those are so tired, and they are yeah but rather we can build.
Here's a young black woman asking a question to a young black man and we're having a conversation and listening to each other.
I think that this is how we change that yeah, you know, putting more conversations out there like this. I also know um with men who are lost, whether they're young or old another thing that I've heard a lot of men tell me when I ask them about what they want out of life. Sometimes they feel like they never even saw an example of this other thing, so their view was so limited.
Absolutely.
And that sucks. I'm sure that your kids are fortunate enough to be able to see a lot of different things. Do you have any advice, maybe that you could suggest to other fathers on how to maybe expose their kids to more so that they can dream bigger?
That's a great question and I'm glad you asked that. One thing my father did was expose me to things. We went on a ski trip every February. We would go to the Poconos. For spring break. Summertime I went to Morristown, tennessee. He introduced me to black men that did different things. One thing I can say I never saw sports or music or drugs or rapping as my only way out, because my dad showed me other ways.
So I think that the first thing we have to do is not stop glorifying only one way to I don't want to say become rich but, we have to give black men other opportunities to be held to a high standard. Because I do hear a lot of young men say you know, if you ain't a ball player, if you ain't a rapper, nobody care. And I'm like, well, there's other ways to make money. And they're just like, yeah, but you could be rich, but people still won't care.
So I'm like so what's more important to you, the finances or the clout?
Right.
And a lot of them will be like the cloud I want people to know me, but you know what that shows me a lot of young black men are tired of not being seen. Think about that. Yeah, think about that. You walk around. I had a mentorship program in brooklyn. I mentored over 500 young men and women.
So many of these young people who are gifted and talented walked around with their heads down, just Just walked around, just moping, and I'm like yo, put your chest up, man, smile Like what's your, and they just be like I'm like what's the matter. Then every time they saw me, after a while they would smile and then it became a bigger smile and I would ask I'm like yo, why you only smile? You know what I'm saying. When you this is what I hear Well, you're the only person that see me.
I'm like man, but that's a reality.
Yeah, I guess it's something I never really considered. I'm thinking about what they aren't seeing, but I'm not thinking about the fact that they just want something that, to them, is bigger than life, so that people care about them. Yes, they want people to care and that they feel like they matter.
Everything you just said is the reason why so many young people walk around looking like they feel like they don't matter and think about the images that they see every day. Every day they pick up a instagram post or something. They're showing another young black person being murdered or something happened and nobody caring.
And once, and that's why I said, we got to put the phones down, because when you keep seeing these negative uh ideas of who you are, these negative stereotypes, even if they're supposed to help right, that's the main reason why I never showed my kids George Floyd was because I was afraid that my sons were going to get so distraught over the fact that wait, you can do that and nobody get in trouble that I was like I don't even want them to see it yeah but so many kids had to see that then.
Then they had to watch Armand Arbery, then they had to watch Breonna Taylor. Do you know what that does to people Like you can? So you can kill us and nothing happens. I really don't matter. So if I don't matter, a lot of people ain't finding you don't matter, and that's when. That's where the aggression comes from, and just the disdain for anyone else's life. And we have to do a better job of showing kids that they matter.
Hug a kid when you see a kid, and that's why I think it's important, especially with black masculinity. I'm that dad with all my kids' friends, bro, I see them and if I value them as their friendship, I'm like come here, man, give me a hug, so that they see like, oh shoot, somebody cares about me Somebody cares, you know Not just my dad, not just thank you. Yeah, and that's what we can do to help other young black men.
Just be a dude that you see a young black man that may be going through something. Yo, what's up what you going through? Mm-hmm. Nothing. You know he may have an attitude Okay, let him have an attitude. He going through something? Yeah, fuck you. Why are you asking me questions? I'm just asking young brother, hope you have a better day. You never know how far that can go for that kid. I know because I've seen it.
I had a training program for 12 years, over 500 young men in one of the hardest places to train in Brooklyn. It was Bed-Stuy, brownsville East New York, flatbush, canarsie. So many gang issues the Woo versus the Cho, flatbush, canarsie. So many gang issues, the Woo versus the Cho. I didn't have not one gang fight or gang issue in my gym ever over 12 years Because every time they came in there, them kids got love, they got love, they got hug. That's black masculinity.
I was the toughest motherfucker in Brooklyn because I loved on all of them tough kids. Nobody ever bothered me. They didn't bother me because I made all of the tough guys feel okay and people don't realize the value in vulnerability, the value in love. I made some of the toughest dudes in Brooklyn rock with me because I took care of their sons and I'm proud of that. You don't got to come in here and be a tough guy. I know Coach Devale got my kid, I ain't worried about it.
Same thing with my kids. They walk around Brooklyn. Now People be like you, don't worry about your kids, you famous First of all. I be like I don't know if I'm really famous. I'm popular on social media. Fame is a different thing. But people see my kids and they respect the fact that they know who their dad is and straight. That, to me, is the most gangster shit ever. When your kids can walk around your hood and nobody mess with them because they know that they dad look out for everybody.
That's that, to me, is like the most masculine thing ever yeah.
Now what about, um, setting a good example for them? When you're doing your work as an actor, do you ever find that there are certain roles that you just do not want to play? Absolutely okay and Okay. And so what are they?
There was a role I got an opportunity to play and the guy there was a scene where he got super, super aggressive with a woman and I told my team I said I will never play domestic violence and I don't do rape scenes. I won't ever. And they were just like why not? And I just feel like certain things you put out in the world I never want because I am a dad first right. I don't want my kids to ever see me do something and think for a split second that that may be okay.
Just recently I did a scene with um Zach in Zatima and he beat his brother really bad. First thing I did was go on Twitter and explain that what Zach did was not okay and there will be consequences. I'm speaking from Devale, who explain that what Zach did was not okay and there will be consequences. I'm speaking from Devale, who has to play Zach.
And I hope y'all understand that the consequences are going to hurt as much as it hurt me having to play this scene, because I want my kids to understand that what you watch on TV isn't real. It is art who is imitating life. It is art who is imitating life, but I don't want you to ever see me beating somebody or hitting a woman or taking advantage of a woman, and just thinking for a split second when my dad did it.
So it's, ok yeah.
So I always I'm very particular about the roles I take and the messages that I put out.
What would you say is the best part about being a black?
man. Best part about being a black man is no is knowing that I am resilient enough to get through anything. Like I look at my history and. I think about where my ancestors came from and I know for a lot of people it's daunting. We were enslaved, but I look at it like we were enslaved.
We came from somebody who made it through Just think about that.
My people were not supposed to be here, my people particularly. I found out by doing 23andMe that my ancestors were Nigerian and walked the Trail of Tears after being freed here in 1865. So, unlike some people, I am proud of my heritage yeah because I'm like my ancestors walk the trail of tears. You know how much strength and resilience you have to have.
I got that and I pass it right on down to you and I see and they and I'm passing it down to my kids.
So the greatest thing about being a black man is my resiliency I love that.
I love how much you have shared about leading by example, because that's really important. How much you have shared about leading by example, because that's really important, and I want to talk about your relationship. We see so many wonderful examples that you and your wife have shared about love and I've listened to some other interviews. I've seen stuff online where people feel like it's fake and you guys are always very transparent and share that you know it's not fake.
Do you ever feel like you want to show a little bit more of the not so happy times?
to balance it. My job is never to prove people what they see. Let's be real. We just spoke about it. A lot of people never see an example of a healthy relationship, so I would be kind of slow to think that people wouldn't think it's fake. If you've never seen something like this and you see it, especially online, it's fake. I've never seen that, so I don't take offense to that. I understand what it is. My point in this is to just show people what it looks like when we try to heal.
Kadeen and I are always trying to heal. We don't think that we're perfect. That's why we show arguments. Sometimes we show the healing aspect of it, but what we show is the process, and the process is going to have to be shown throughout the rest of our life. This is not something where we're going to do this for two years and then we stop. No, I am committed to sharing my life as an artist, because, as an artist, what else do you have to do other than inspire people? Inspire people with my art.
My art is storytelling and my muse is my family. So history will prove that it's not fake. Over time, when I die and people look back and they say, damn, he was that way with his wife the whole time, they can no longer say it's fake. But right now, if they believe it's fake because they've never seen it before and this is the first example I don't blame them.
Just keep watching. Do your kids ever get embarrassed or tired of you guys online?
No, no, because we speak to our kids and this is what people need to understand too. There's 1,440 minutes in a day. I love math. I show two minutes a day, so how much of my day.
Did you really get that is like condensed.
Yeah, so if you get two out of the 1,440, that's less than a thousandth of a percent. You don't really know me, that's why when? People say oh, they fake. You don't know me. You know the thousandth percent of what I've chosen to show you. So if you believe it's fake man. That's on you. I can't that's not my job to try to make you change that. But in those two minutes I always ask my sons do you care if dad posts this? What does this video mean to you? Why do you want to share it?
I have not shared a video since my sons understand the English language without them seeing first and asking them why do you want to share it? And they'll tell me why they want to share it. Jackson will be the first one, because sometimes, jackson, you know, there's a couple videos where he's cried because he was getting disciplined and I was just like why do you want to share this, jackson? He said you know what my friends say.
They say that they wish that their dads had that type of conversations with them. So I'm learning that my conversations with you can help other families. So I said as long as you have your reason for wanting to share, we can share. If you say you don't know, we're not sharing. And I have thousands of videos in my phone that my boys can't explain why we should share it and I don't share it.
It's going to stay there in the phone.
Right, it has to, even though if I think it's a great video, if they can't explain to me why we should share this, then I can't share it, because if one of their friends asked them, I don't want them to ever look at a video and be like I don't know why my dad shared it. I want them to be able to explain going to share my kids. They have to be a part of it. That's why my kids don't get embarrassed. People ask them.
I saw you crying and your dad and jackson will tell you I was crying because I was frustrated.
But my father always explained to me frustration fucks up my focus so I'm not gonna get frustrated next time yeah, and that'll shut him down every time, every time, because he can explain it, but that's also me teaching him how closed mouths don't get fed in my house.
You have an issue with me, sir. You're 13?, tell me. You two, you eight, tell me. But, dad, I'm a little afraid. Why are you afraid? Do I hit you? Do I beat you? No, so your words can't, you can't get you in trouble. Man, to how you feel, tell me how you feel and let's work through the emotions.
Yeah, and if you're not feeling good, no change is going to happen if you don't speak up. You see what I'm saying?
That's how you create young men who can go out in the world and the first time a woman disagrees with them or another man, they don't get angry or violent.
They can sit down for a minute and be like this don't make me feel good.
Let me talk to you about this. I want my sons to learn that with me, but not only me with their mom. You know what a very deliberate thing we've done. What, my wife? Because when we first had Jackson, we both raised Jackson the way we was raised. Okay. You know he do something wrong, get popped. You know he forget his book. He get screamed at all, you know, because that's how I was raised, southern baptist she was raised. Jamaican of incension.
But then after a while we were like yo, this is not working, like we were watching our son shrink, shrink and say less, and say less. And it was around third grade that, um, he had a project come back home and he forgot to bring a book yeah and my wife was screaming why didn't you bring the book? and he's sitting there, eyes welling and he's not saying anything. He's just sitting there. And then both of us was just like hello talk.
And he was looking up, like and it hit me like we're screaming at him telling him to talk, and every time he says something we get louder.
I'm like this is not healthy, it's not productive.
So then we made a conscious effort. She said, yo, we have to stop overreacting to them doing things. We as adults ask for grace. He forgot his book. Can we not give him grace? But then you know what happens when you start to give kids grace what, you realize that they weren't the problem. We're going over the homework, right. Why didn't you bring your book home? On the list of things to be brought home, his teacher forgot to mention the book.
So here we are screaming at him, but don't we do that as adults?
all the time we scream at the only person who doesn't have the power to defend themselves and he doesn't know to say that my teacher didn't. He's eight. So in that moment I was like never again, not screaming at my son and Kay was just like. I got to do better, because how I scream at him is how he's going to view women. And I was like, yeah, and you know how many young men I know who the first time I fucked that bitch your mom Right, you fucked that bitch over your mom.
She always screaming at me, telling me all your shit. And I'm like, wow, you're giving back to her what she gives to you and you think that that's okay, right, I was like I'm not doing that K, so we don't. We don't scream and holler at our kids like that. Like everything's a conversation discussion.
¶ Love, Life, Lessons
I love watching y'all and seeing everything and hearing the stories. It feels, very transparent and you cover so many things and I'm always wondering how did you know she was the one?
Okay, man.
I know y'all been together decades.
Yeah, we've been 22 years Since we were 18,. We've known each other since we was really really small. I knew she was the one by what she did Our first date. We were sitting down there on my my bed in hofstra university and she's petite little pop butt. I'm a freshman division one athlete I'm gonna smash.
That's that's what that's the thought. The thought is I am gonna smash right, so we sitting there she's eating Her hero.
She's singing on the band. I'm just looking up and down. I'm like, yeah, as soon as she done that hero, while she's eating the hero, she goes. So what you want to do with your life? I was like, oh, that's a very interesting question.
Let me see I'm like, yeah, I want to do that Martin was on TV and she was like that. And I was like I want to have my own.
TV show and act and she was like oh okay, so how are we going to do that? When I tell you that blew me away. Number one it blew me away because she included herself in my dream. How we are going to do that. Number one it blew me away because she included herself in my dream. How we are going to do that?
The second thing was that she believed in my dream Every time.
Up until that point, when I told people I wanted to act, they laughed at me Friends, family Really, you're not going to act like them. Kids been acting since they was kids. You play football, go to the league. Everybody laughed. Why would you look at that? You're already doing something that other people admire you for and they used to bother me because I felt like man, y'all really look down at acting because I play sports and it was kind of I felt like it was corny, but she didn't.
She was just like how you gonna do that? So then when I told her my whole scheme, she's like okay, that's dope, that's dope. So I asked her what you want to do and she was just like well, I want to be in entertainment news. And she was was telling me her whole thing and I was like she got a plan too. So I threw it back. I said how are we going to do that? Right, and I thought you know, I thought she was going to say some corny shit. And she said we got to be together.
Then I know that's right girl.
I was like yo, who is this girl? Like didn't smash. We talked, for it was after that until it was late like 11 o'clock, and then she's like I got to go back. I got to go back and I was just like, okay, well, when are you coming back? She's like I'll come back in two days. I walked her all the way to her car. We kissed for like 30 minutes. It was like one of those long, like it should have started raining. It was a rom-com. Kiss yo. I just left with K. He was like did you smash?
Right.
I was like, nah, he was like what I was like, but we talked and he was like what? And then me and my brother talked about the conversation and it was in that moment I kind of felt like this is different, because I did not want a girlfriend. I will say this about masculinity I bought into the whole 90s 2000 idea of what masculinity was, which was quantity, Got to find me the baddest chick and I got to have as many of the baddest chicks as I have. I bought into that.
So going into my freshman year of college I was all in for that. I was like I need to get out where they at my Southern Baptist parents I had curfew couldn't be outside. I finally got my own car, my own room. So that's when it started. This is when she solidified it. Two weeks later she comes. She stays by me. She's like I'm going to stay by you. She lied to her parents, she 18, told her she'd stay by her cousin. She had on this purple velour nightie that matched the top.
She slept without a bonnet. No makeup, right. She looks so good that night. I still didn't smash. Woke up the next morning and she was peaceful. I know she was fake sleeping, but this is how she was sleeping. This is how she was sleeping just like sleeping pretty pretty. Then she woke up, we enjoyed breakfast, she made me breakfast and then she went about her day. When I I went back, came back from class, there was a letter and it was a four page letter.
She wrote in script by hand thanking me for making her feel comfortable and all this other stuff. I fell in love after that Because it was the small gestures, you know. Like her believing in my dream, her making me breakfast in the morning because she knew I had practice. Her handwriting me a letter telling me her thoughts and letting me know that I made her feel safe. That shit made me feel like a man yeah, I'm like, yeah, I made this.
I made this woman feel safe, and then it was like writing letters. Yeah, yeah, I was like.
I got here writing letters I ain't even smashed yet. Wait till I smash. That's that's what I was thinking, yeah, but then it was the feeling of that. I made someone else's daughter feel safe and I said, yo, like that's it, this is her for the rest of her life. She ain't gonna have to worry about nothing because she allowed me to make her feel safe. Was I expecting that at 18? Not at all. Not at all. And I still struggled in college with like dang there's so many other women.
But I knew I had something good. So you got to use discernment and make right choices. You know so, and I'm not going to sit here and lie to people and make it seem like I always made the right choice for us. There were times where I was selfish and made choices for myself, and what also made me realize that I loved her was that she allowed me to make choices for myself and didn't judge me.
So when I asked her what choices she needed to make for herself, she made choices for herself and I didn't judge her. And sometimes those choices involved other people that you got to realize. Do I want her to be with somebody else? Nah, yeah so if I don't, I got to make that decision too. You know what I'm saying, because?
we had that time in college, like yo I don't.
I got to make that decision too. You know what I'm saying, Because we had that time in college. Like yo, I don't want to be with nobody. I don't want to be with you. I got other chicks I'm trying to deal with. And she's like well, I don't want to be nobody's girlfriend either. You know what I'm saying.
Yeah, and she was like fine I was like fine, we leave each other.
We have this conversation in the car. We're like you know what? I think we should give each other space, like I'm going to drop you to your parents. She's like okay, bet, so we get to her parents' house. I'm in the car. I'm like all right, she's like I'm leaving. I'm like all right, open the door. And she opened the car.
Right.
She walk across the front. I'm looking at her, she's looking at me.
I'm like what you going to do.
Then she gets to the other side. She's, like you, really going to let me leave. Uh-huh, I'm like man, get your ass back in the car. Then we drive off back to the dorm. You know, like I knew it was her I needed and she'll tell you she had to mature to be in a version of a woman that I needed, and it took time.
So I think it's important for couples to realize like there's no one moment where everything happens perfectly yeah you take time and you make decisions, and you make choices and you, you build with each other and give each other a little grace to learn, yeah, grace, grace and boundaries at the same time. Um, for me, people always struggle with that. It's like how do I know how much grace to give? And I'm like you got?
You have to try to use discernment to understand someone's intent yeah you know intent versus impact if. I do something and it hurts you, but you know that I was trying my best to do something good. That's a different intent than impact. But if you know that I was really trying to hurt, you, put boundaries on that person yeah. You can give grace to the person that you knew had good intentions. So, that's what I say about that.
Yeah, and then now your relationship. Now, what's the dynamic like between you guys? I know you work together on a lot of stuff and then you have these wonderful kids and businesses and things. How do y'all work and how do you kind of define the roles that y'all have in the relationship?
our marriage is run like a business okay because, um, I'm big on wealth building, so when it comes to finances, we do everything together like we do everything together. Every everything comes into our business account, then it goes down into our trust, then our family account. She gets her salary, I get my salary. All of our wealth building is already set up for our kids, so we don't have to worry about actively saving for them because all of that is already, you know, built in.
So, financially it's built like a business okay but spiritually and emotionally, that's my best friend, my best friend. I don't do anything without her she don't do anything without me um. We got life 360. I don't gotta I don't gotta hide my phone I don't you know what I'm saying. She know all my codes. I know all her codes. That doesn't work for everybody, because certain people have different ideals. That works for us if something were to happen to me today, give my wife my phone.
She'll get into it and she'll know how to manage everything, because she knows what needs to get done. I can't have secrets from my wife. My wife can't have secrets from me. We we have a very unhealthy codependency for each other, but it works for us yeah and the reason why I say that is because people often watch us and say, well, that wouldn't work for me, that wouldn't work for me. What we're saying works for us is we're not saying that it has to work for everybody, it works for us.
And this is an example that you can try if you're trying to figure it out, right?
And if it don't work for you, mark that down as yo. What the Ellis's do there don't work for me. You learned something and that's why we hate the whole couple goals thing, because it ain't about act like us. It's not about that. It's just look at the example of two people trying their hardest to figure it out and you do the same thing with whatever ideals you want yeah so that's how we run. That's my best friend yo. We don't like there's nothing. She know every right.
She know where I'm at right now. She can look at that life. She 360. She knows all my. She's in contact with all my managers, my business people, my agents, and I do the same thing for her. That's why, when people see us sometimes they're like why his wife always got to be involved in things? why, not you know what, what, and this is why people get us. Do you get upset when fans, fans say things about you know, you and your co-stars?
And I said I don't get upset because a lot of people haven't seen a healthy relationship where people can converse about things or have a sex scene with a co-star or even have a co-star who's attractive. A lot of people haven't seen a man be faithful through that, so I don't get upset for them having judgment. I just say watch me, just watch how I rock, Just watch, I'm not, this is me. I don't got to fake nothing.
Yeah.
Because I get to live and be who I want to be. So it's up to you to figure it out. If you like it or not, you know yeah that's beautiful.
I wish I could talk to you all day. We do have a few more quick segments to do and so I'm gonna ask you a question and I just want you to give me your hot take on these situations. So how do you feel about couples who overshare on social media, especially relationship drama?
¶ Hot Takes Segment
I feel like couples who haven't resolved their drama before they post it. It's asking for trouble because, when you allow anyone into your drama before it's resolved, you're allowing other people's ideas of what your relationship should look like to infiltrate your mind, and that can cause trouble.
Now if y'all have already resolved it and you want to plan to show the conflict and the resolution, I'm all for that, but just showing the conflict for clicks that can be pretty bad, or crashing out online. Or crashing out. One thing you will not see me is crash out online. Now I crash out in real life.
Sometimes, it happens.
You know what I'm saying, like I'm protective over my wife, I'm protective over my kids. I've had some crash outs, I'm not posting that yeah because those most crash outs are like the worst person's moment in their life and you don't want the worst moment of your life to be reposted millions of times for people to just say well, that's him.
And dissected and everything else that's I don't, I don't, I don't believe in the crash outs posting maybe everybody could take the approach that you take with your kids and say now, why are we posting this? What is the point? What is the reason if?
you don't have a clear reason keep it in the photos I agree with you on that, because if you look at my phone you be like how did you post it? That was it. That was so funny. I'm like my sons don't understand, I'm not
¶ Ask an xoMAN Advice Segment
doing that to them and that's more important.
So we pulled some of the people that we work with, since we're just getting started and we have a situation that she's hoping you can help with. She says my son is 18. And she's realizing that he's quite the player. She says he doesn't seem to value the women in his life, and the things I've heard him say about women can be degrading or it shows that he's not looking at women as people but more so as objects or conquests. I know he's still young, but it's really concerning me.
What advice or tips do you have on how I can help to get him back on track? I understand he's young and there are phases he may go through, but even if he's not seeing someone seriously, I'd like him to still be mindful of how he treats them so that he doesn't stick with this behavior forever.
I think all young men need to experience spending time with a mature woman who's going through life's changes. Have them spend a week with a newborn. Have them spend a week with a woman who just had a baby, about to have a baby, a woman that's dating and a woman that they love, like their sister or their aunt, because we often value people we can relate to.
Yeah, if he's a young man who's not around a lot of women, he can't relate to women, so the only thing he gets from women is what he sees on instagram and, depending on the algorithm, if you're out the room algorithm is all tits and ass and thongs. That's all he sees. When he sees a woman, he don't see anything else. His mind is still very fragile. Can we really blame him for what he sees from women if all he's being sent is the stuff in the algorithm? We can't.
It is your responsibility as a mom to make sure that you put different ideals about women around him so that he can value women, because that's what I'm doing with my sons. My sons are going to be around women who are politicians, makeup artists, doctors, attorneys.
They're going to see women in different light so that they don't see women as just just ig or only fans models, yeah, and and not that that's a problem, but it's like some of those ig and only fans models are probably some of the best businessmen, business women, these the world has seen because they make so much money.
But if my boys can understand that women are not monolithic right, you, you know what I'm saying the minute they understand that wait, wait a minute, that's just one woman, there's all these women Then I think her son will value women differently. He has to understand the plight that women go through Right now. He probably don't 18, I didn't.
I told you what I was thinking at 18. Right, I'm trying to smash.
Not for nothing. Think that we have to also give young kids grace. Like Devale at 40 can sit up here and sound so profound and all he has it all figured out ask 18 year old Devale dom.
This is the same Devale that when k had her first child, my first son, jackson, was just like you, act like you're the first woman to ever have a baby, like it's not that difficult oh my god, yes, you said that out loud I said that to her out loud because we were having an argument I didn't know how to eloquently articulate myself yeah she was being nasty because no one eloquently articulate, articulated to her how she's supposed to speak to someone.
She just felt like, well, I'm pregnant, I can say whatever the fuck I want to say to people and I lashed out yeah, was I right? No, was she right? No, but the fact of the matter is we have to start showing young people like yo just where you are in that moment is not where you're gonna spend your whole life. Right? He 18, he don't respect women right now let's teach him, yeah, you know what I'm saying? it's that it's that simple. But you know we'll do.
We'll discard him and we'll call him, I don't know, something phobic, because they give if you disagree with anybody now you have a phobia. You disagree. Well, you don't like lights. You light a phobic. What's what's it's like. I don't like lights. I got migraines, but you know what I'm saying, though. But let's stop labeling people and let's educate them, yeah now, that would be my thing to her educator well, good luck, sis.
I hope that you take some of these tips you got it and apply it. Um, I want to ask you what's next for you.
My wife and I are in the process of closing a deal on a docu-follow.
Okay.
So we're excited about that. It's been years in the making. People are like why don't you have a reality show? And I said I never wanted to do a reality show because reality shows are typically based around contention. I want to do a docu-follow that shows how we really build as a family. You know how we build this business, um, how we build as partners, but also how we build as parents. So we have that coming out um. My wife is also working on her own talk show. I'm excited about a day with k?
Um what else? Podcast is being renewed dead ass podcast is coming back for season 16. I'm excited about that. Yes, um, I'm also co-producing Othello on Broadway with Brian Nolan.
Oh, wow, congratulations, it's starring.
Denzel Washington and Jake Gyllenhaal, so I'm excited about that. I also have two films in development so you're a very busy man.
I'm grinding right now yes, yes, yes okay. Well, you guys make sure you keep abreast of everything that DeVell has going on. We'll be sure to include links in the episode description. I hope that you enjoyed the episode. I know I did thank you so much for your time and that's a wrap for xoMAN podcast.