Today's episode contains spoilers for The Witch and The Lighthouse, so be prepared for that. Hello, my name is Joel Lenique.
And I am Carmen Laurent and.
Welcome to Xtra Vision Extras, an X ray vision series where we dive deep into even more of your favorite shows, movies, comics, and pop culture. Every superhero team meets side Quest, and our rotating panel of producers and guest hosts will be suiting up to help Jason and Rosie cover all of the amazing nerd content out there.
Today in the series of Robert Egger's coverage, we are covering the movie from twenty nineteen, The Lighthouse, and in our this is all in our lead up to the movie coming out on Christmas Day this year No Speratu, so get ready for that and like I said, get all your gas out now.
Tired of these damn farts. But first, yes, previously on okay, let's try to have you listened to The Witch. Last week we had a very chaotic recap. We're going to try to duplicate recapping the Stillness Sour. I was thinking about Essel's watching and I was like, it's so big and nebulous. This movie that it's really hard to beyond the basic description, which I think would go something like this young man gets hired to go to a lighthouse
where he meets an over zealous aged lighthouse watcher. Uh huh, as he's pushed to the edge of his sanity to anyone with an overzealous boss can easily identify with a battle ensues between the two of them, centered specifically on their masculinity. Over time, power exchanges hands more and more rapidly, to the point where sometimes you're talking two minutes of a character being in a position of power before somebody else overtakes that. Uh. They are driven mad by isolation, bad weather.
And the sea, maybe even the lighthouse.
Possibly, Oh, we're going to get into Possibly the lighthouse is doing it, and they're both driven to a state of madness that sort of ends up in a BDSM pet play relationships. There are a spackling of great Shakespearean monologues where Egres gets to showcase his knowledge of the bard An attempt to do some of his own monologue writing, and mysterious ending did we do it, didn't we do it?
Yeah, it's very it's very I mean, this is like and we're gonna we're gonna talk about it in the discussion here, but it's very much like a very cosmic horror, and that is what leads to it being kind of, I think, so confusing and also fun to watch, or all of the cosmic elements of this.
So glad you said cosmic horror, because the whole time I was thinking about space. Hear me out, Yes, like the ocean being this vast unknown, the ocean maybe being a stand in for women. I had this thought of, like, Okay, maybe this film is saying the ocean is like women in that they are deep and unknowable, and they are a horizon you cannot touch, especially if you're a man isolated on an island with another man, which was like, that's the the layers of visual artistry we're dealing with.
Let's go over some of the stats of this film before we get too far into a breakdown. So this is released May nineteen, twenty nineteen. It can October eighteenth. It comes to US theaters. It's got a budget of eleven million and does a box office of about eighteen point three, which for a sophomore film coming off the success of The Witch. Yeah, it's interesting. I think from a producer investor perspective, this might have been a little
bit disappointing. But from an artistic director standpoint, if your movie makes money, you did it. We can pay back the investors. Everyone got a small percentage. We didn't make as much money as we were hoping, but we got our percentages off.
That's a seven million, seven million, you know.
What, Damn straight seven million is enough to start funding the next film. We can put it that way. Jarren Blashki is the cinematographer.
Sorry, also basically the same team he used for The Witch Yes music and cinematography, which is great.
I think I really appreciate a director who's like, this is my crew, because if you have spent a lot of time on a crew, it's just really good. I'm Carmen. You spent your first was that your first time working with the film crew when you were down in Texas?
No, we did it here in Atlanta. We did it at the Atlanta Capital. That was with Lisa from The Fake Doctor's Real Friends production.
Yea.
And of course I've been on I've been on a set when we did our Toyota film, our Toyota commercial, and I've been on another set with Violet when she shot her music video for Fade de Grae, the cover of the song Fade Degrae. So I've seen a couple, you know, small productions, but that was my first time actually working on a production and a lot of fun.
It is a lot of fun, and I think when you're coming back to the same cruise repeatedly, there's a level of artistic creativity and pushing one another that you get to do. Uh. And he's worked with Giant on all of this films. So he also shoots The Northman and The Witch.
Does he shoot the uh, the Nose Frauty movie?
Yeah, yep, Wow, that's awesome. Yeah. Well, you know, I'll do some deeper research on Jarn's you talk about him when we talk about the north film, because I actually had a lot of questions and we're going to get into some color theory on this black and white film because I have a lot of thoughts about that. Okay, So Mark Korn does the music. It's got a respectable runtime of one hundred and nine minutes. I thought this movie was longer. I remember it feeling very long. It
does because of the stress Hunters. It's really chaotic. How do you feel about the run time?
The tension builds very slowly throughout the movie, just like in The Witch. Similarly, there's a lot of similarities between this movie and The Witch. I find there and we are going to hark. I also wanted to say, Jaron, he is the one who pushed Robert Egger's to shoot in this almost square aspect ratio. So it's like one point one nine to one aspect ratio with black and white thirty five millimeter film on these like teak lenses. So I think that's where some of the budget went
in comparison to The Witch. This was also shot in Canada, Nova Scotia. It was shot at Cape Horseshoe is what it's called, and they built the lighthouse themselves, which I found to be very interesting.
I cannot wait to talk to you about Edgar's dollhouse theory, especially when it was so much more prominent in this movie than in The Witch, and I thought it was used a great effect.
Yeah The Witch.
Okay, so let's talk about first reactions and experiences watching this film. Do you remember the first time you saw this film?
Yes? I actually okay, so I just recently watched this for the first time. I want to say, back in late September early October, and it was around the same time I actually watched the first episode of the Uzumaki anime, which first episode was great and then it went on on a downward spiral. And I remember thinking after I watched the Uzamaki first episode and then watching this, I remember thinking, Wow, there's a lot of similarities between this
and Uzumaki. Obviously they're different subject matter, but they are both cosmic horrors, and they are both in black and white. And the kind of droning, especially at the beginning of the movie, you have that like droning horn sound that is played throughout all kind of gave me same like atmospheric vibes of the Uza Maki and this is just like The Witch is another movie that is very much vibes. There's a lot of vibes and a lot of atmosphere going on here.
Both get into some weird cerebral body horror as well. I consider The Mermaid vagina body horror. I'm just gonna look, you guys, it's so weird.
The tentacles and all of that.
Yeah, definitely, you see a lot of reputation there.
Okay.
I first saw this at TIFF and there was a lot of buzz obviously coming after Can and the question was sort of, will general audiences like this like they liked The Witch. The answer was for a lot of critics was no. I think box office suggests that's true. It's not as in my mind accessible as The Witch.
But I remember leaning back in the theater and being like, oh, this is brilliant, like just for I like a movie that makes me feel And I think, yeah, that's not an experience everyone vibes with, particularly and perhaps I've been talking to a lot of folks who don't like horror, almost all men, by the way, who were like, I am not interested in horror films. I don't want to watch Aaron and abou our producers here don't like horror.
They we were like passes to nostraati. They're like, well, literally, pass We're not interested.
My boyfriend not at all interested.
Really, Okay, so this is fast. Please write in and tell us if you're a man who doesn't enjoy horror or why. I just want to hear more about this. A lot of the guys I've talked to have an issue there, like I don't like the feeling of being terrified. It puts me on edge. I can't relax. I don't understand why you're having fun with this. I think women are always afraid and being.
Able exactly what I was gonna say.
Being able to practice it in a safe environment where you can't actually be hurt is a wonderful fun bonding experience with your galp hoals And because and we sort of talked about this before on some of our other horror episodes, but having a final girl that you can really lean into you and love is such a joy. And I think that's what makes horror great. And with that thought in mind, I would talk about like the gender identity in Egger's films, if we have what He's
like again. Eggars didn't call it a feminist film, but said that he was proud or excited. I can't remember his exact adjective. That people felt like The Witch was feminist film, and to me, I think you could categorize it as that there's some possibly if there aren't that many women involved directly in the storytelling, is it feminist. I think the narrative I would put is leans heavily into a lot of feminist shows. Specifically, if you're looking
at the wich is an evil entity in America. Okay, great, Absolutely, this film is absolutely about toxic masculinity. He said that he sort of stumbled upon that as they were writing, so not his agenda in starting the project. He saw his brother brought him the story, a real story of two men who were like abandoned or something in a lighthouse, and they were like, oh, that's an interesting story.
It's called the Smalls Lighthouse Tragedy. It's a real story of an accident that happened at a lighthouse in Wales, which I found very interesting. And it was partly inspired by the Edgar Allan Poe short story of the same name that he never got to finish before he died. So he started it like months before death, and then and yeah, and then die.
I love say, I love that Edgars is so into historical village. He's such a nerd uh. And then there's something I really appreciate and vibe with, Like, you know, I Greyl and Poe didn't get to finished. I want to do a horror in a lighthouse. I wouldn't need turned to that as inspiration. That's beautiful. So he was like as we're rioting, and if you're dealing with two guys who are isolated in a job that is considered rather masculine but also requires a lot of feminine tasks, Yep.
All placed on Robert Pattins's character.
Because he's the young and new one and less experienced one, and therefore is considered the lesser of the men, and so he's forced to do women's work, which he finds extremely degrading and keeps bringing it up. And then he has a reaction like I think many a woman has had in her life for someone's like, oh this isn't done well. He was like, bitch, what do you I have scrubb Queen's maid could come here and not do as good a job as I had you. Oh, he
was angry, he was upset. And because of that you get like you do start like stripping away women as Alia dog. Yes, yes, the stripping women away. It totally is Carmen, And there's like there's it's just such an
interesting way to explore like what is masculinity? Right? And I think a lot of times when people try to explore toxic masculinity, what you're doing is you're looking at the end result of it, which is to say, oh, violence against women is like the root of toxic but really it's like the root of toxic masculinity is an insecurity in men, right, Like it's it's your own insecurities
of what it means to be a man. These unfair societal pressures and been created to put on other men of like what does it mean to be a man? And throughout the film you get a back and forth exchange of that. Okay, so you have younger guy comes saying clearly you're inferior. Okay, but I'm physically stronger than you are a man, I'm superior. Okay. Well I have more experience and I'm more intelligent than you, but I'm more modern and I'm more adept at working in these situations. Okay,
but it's literally my lighthouse line and your boss. I have more experience than you. I'm on top. Okay, but I could Okay, And then you get a twist, so we've run out of things to top each other with. So now it's yeah, and I'm lonely and I hate this place, and this place is so hard. Now I'm codependent on you and I have and Okay, so we're sparking up a friendship, but we can only bond.
Each other while we're drunk and dancing.
Yeah, we only bond with each other through being super drunk, through fighting, and once we reach the depths of that, our repression comes out. You know, we're repressed. We're not He's not even supposed to masturbate, like, which is crazy. It's like, bro, we're alone on an island with no TV and apparently enough books, books and teens. Day would have been a dream for me. Women would have nailed this. I just want to say, if women had been had just been women at the Lighthouse, this is a very
different movie. Last Yeah, totally. It's just quiet and there are no men, and it's scenic and beautiful and it's gonna storm tonight. I have books and good food. We can go.
We're good.
We're truly living a blessed life. About your coachy sweater weather, stop it. I'm fine. The only thing I'm worried about is cleanliness, and we can figure it out. So yeah, So I'm really curious to hear your thoughts on both the way masculinity is portrayed throughout the film and also the way these two specific performers sort of go back and forth in there, like it's a really interesting pairing Robert Pattinson and Willem Dafoe. Willem Dafoe is, you know,
known for doing these big, over the top characters. She's got this incredible thing, and Robert has, you know, post Twilight has been very interesting and sort of the same way that Daniel Bradcliffe has been on choosing weird roles that just speak to and challenge, and he's not even afraid of going into something like a Batman a blockbuster as long as he can be weird about it. He's like,
I'll be there. And so to allow these two really incredible performers to be at the peak of weird talking about masculinity like, I just think it's a stroke of brilliance. How did it touch you?
Yeah?
Yeah?
And it's interesting too because they both personally reached out to Robert Eggers after they saw The Witch and told Robert Eggers that they wanted to be involved in his next project.
Robert, what a dream? What a yeah, right, what a dream to get these too? Yeah?
What a dream to get these two big names in Hollywood for your next film that are just like down for whatever and super excited to work on your next project. You know, I want to tie back the conversation of
toxic masculinity. And I don't know if this exactly answers the question, but the subject of toxic masculinity being like the centerpiece of the movie, I think it ties in also into how men, just like we were also talking about it at the top, how men don't like horror movies is because not only because they don't like to feel afraid, but feeling afraid is something that I think challenges a lot of men's masculinity in a way that
they're not comfortable with. And I'm not calling anyone out, you know, but.
No, but I think that's fair.
Yeah, And I you know, another thing I wanted to add to that too, is like all of my gay male friends love horror.
Oh my god, that's so true.
And it's I think because they are not tied to masculinity in the same way is that, you know, sis, straight men are tied to masculinity.
They're not asked to perform the ideology of masculinity exact way, so our community sort of allows them to you feel how you feel, Okay, wow, Okay, go on.
Yeah. Yeah, So in the movie, I just think that they do such a great job, you know, with monologuing each other and and kind of you can with each thing that Willem Dafoe's character says to Robert Pattins's character, you can just see in Robert Pattens's face, like how annoyed he's getting with Willem Dafoe, and that tension is just slowly and slowly building until they finally, you know, have this huge fight which is also during a storm, which I think is also a really perfect like symbolism
of kind of of the anger that men can like hold up inside of themselves. It can be very destructive and it literally, if I'm not mistaken, it destroys the how you know, it destroys where they're where they're staying. So there's a lot of like symbolism in the movie I find with that and and toxic masculinity, I agree.
When we come back, we're going to talk about the black and white, the aspect ratio, and what does the lighthouse mean? What's happening up there? Is it is it real? Is it magic? What what's going on?
Is it dreams?
Is it dreams? We'll be right back. Okay, and we're back all right. So we've been talking about the ways toxic masculinity are explored throughout the film. I want to talk a little bit about the visual imagery and work our way back to this idea. So yeah, I think it was an inspired choice to shoot in this aspect ratio. It's almost a perfect square. It did make projecting it difficult. You had to have a screen of a certain size in order to shoot it.
And I'm also curious what the IMAX experience would have been like with this movie.
I saw it in an Imax projection. I'm pretty sure that was an IMAX projected theater. My screening it, the screenings at any film festival, but especially one OF's large at TIFF is like one of the five Oscar qualifiers. Immaculate, like really really gorgeous, deep deep blacks, like stunning, stunning visually, and they, you know, found a way to I think
they used the classic Kurrasawa I believe. I remember reading that effect of putting ink in water to make rain pop in a black and white film, right, because the rain is gorgeous in it. But it's hard to shoot rain in black and white because it just kind of looks grainy, so you really have to give it a different saturation of color. And this really pushes Eggeries as a director to shoot in black and white. It's not
for those of you unfamiliar with like filming processes. The best way to explain this is to encourage you to look up with picture of the set of the Monsters from the nineteen sixties. It is pastel as hell.
It is light the Monsters.
Yeah, so if you look at the Monsters set photos from the sixties and seventies, so the Monsters were shot in black and white, but their set is almost pestel. You can also do this with looking at old black and white makeup tests. In color women wore green lipstick to appear red on screen, So you have to be so in your bag on your color theory to shoot in black and white. Well, it is a challenge a lot of directors get excited about, but it's difficult to
pull off. I thought Eggers did a really great job of finding like such a great balance. Everything is very visible, the contrasts are like really strong. This is very technically difficult work to do, and I thought it was beautiful. And the square framing of the film highlights the claustrophobia in such a way that it like, I have a fear of claustrophobia. I don't like being in small or
tight spaces. And I think by like, there was a there's a shot where Robert is up in the lighthouse obviously not touching the light yet because he's not alive, and Dafoe is climbing up the ladder, and uh, it's two separate shots. So one shot of Dafoe looking down on him, Robert is standing above him. At this point in the film is still pretty early. I would say the film is divided almost into two parts. It's or
maybe three. It's like his early arrival, and then you get this time when they're sort of bonded to the time he's supposed to leave, and then you get off full hour, which is insane. It's so much time between the time he's supposed to leave and doesn't get picked up to the end. And that's where really the downward spiral just goes completely out of control. So in this shot, these two solo shots, you're bouncing back and forth, and the eye line is diagonal, it's across the frame. When
you're cutting between the two of them. They feel like they're standing like Robert is standing on top of Defot's shoulders, almost because there's such a tight frame that when you have someone looking across and down, it like shoots their height way up visually, and it really makes you like again, it just cramps everything together and makes it so tight. You feel like you're in this lighthouse and there's literally zero reprieve. It never comes. You are always this tight
and locked in. And I think shooting that way again technically difficult when you're used to having all of this space, you have a lot of them. You have to use a lot of economy of space to pull it off and make it look good. And so I think what really impresses me. I think sophomore films are such a challenge to pull off. And if you think, Okay, I'm getting really theoretical here, and there's no proof of anything I'm about to say, so I feel free to disregard it.
I think it's a very interesting subject for Egers to go from a film he's excited to have people call feminist. Being lauded as an extremely successful early director like this is huge. You could do one of two things. You could take on a great, big studio project, because I'm sure they were offered to him. You could repeat and lean into becoming a horror director, or you could turn your back on all that and say it was really important to me is telling stories I'm excited about period,
and what excites me is writing my own stories. He stayed small when he could have. We've seen directors and that was really the era of these. Like if you think the guy that did Jurassic Park one hit Steven spielg wurds like I love you, He's like, great, I'll make I'll direct Jurassic Park. Next.
I read that Robert Eggers was actually being offered lots of studio, big studio projects, but he was not interested in any of them, and instead his brother Max brought this story to him and that's when he really like piqued his interest. So he really is like a director who seems to choose things that he's passionate about or things that he's really interested in, versus what Hollywood wants him to do. You know.
Yeah, and we saw that in that era, like with Gareth Edwards, who directed the new Directsic Park trilogy, was also offered Rogue one. Both of those films not as well received. But if you were a white man who had a successful indie film Rogue one, Yes, but he's replaced his director towards the end and they reshoot most of it right before it releases. Yeah, one is my favorite Star Wars film. But yeah, behind the scenes a
lot of issues. And to be truthful and honest, it is very, very difficult to go for making an indie to doing a big studio project because so much more is required of you. There's so much more money, there's so much more pressure. Oftentimes you're now dealing with stars instead of actors who were just excited to work, and that comes with the whole other set of conditions. You need to know how to speak with and work with those people so that you both have their respect and
their attention slash devotion. Like, it's a very hard it's much more political than people think to make a big studio film, and so like it makes sense to and who I think it takes a really big person, or it feels to me like it would take a really big person to turn down all of that money, all that opportunity, all of that praise to come do something small, but to and especially with your sophomore project to land that plane is really really difficult. I think he did
a great job. He gets his brothers in space to work on his writing, which I love, and he comes up with this idea of like, okay, if we're if I'm turning my back on all of that, let me really examine what I'm turning like. I really think a lot of there's a lot of toxic masculinity. This is me too, Era, It's just lining up for me. And whether that's a bunch of coincidences or just how the
universes were happening to unfold. In other words, all these things are around, and so of course you're comparing what's coming out of this film where you can't say for sure that this is what's Ineggar's heart is. He's working on it, but it was I think it came an interesting time for me as a viewer, I'll say, to be exploring all those things. It was really a felt uh difficult as a woman to get into this movie. At first, the farts are yes, this is a dirty.
It really is. They really want you to be annoyed with Willem Dafoe and just like damn, this old man is so crotchety and disgusting, and he's really effective at that, you know. But at the same time he also there are times when he earns your respect just with his wisdom and like the knowledge that he has of being a seafarer somebody who lives on an isolated island, Like he knows what he's talking about. But he's also very, very hard to deal with.
Yeah, here's another thing that's interesting. When you're doing two actors in a show like this, so there's there's no supporting castors. There's excuse me. There is a mermaid who's played by a woman who is here and she but she's not giving a lot of interaction, right, Like the thing she's almost all of her shots are like one shots. It's just her, you know, she's isolated, almost like these birds, until maybe she's pulled into it's like maybe Robert's hands are there or something like that.
Yeah, but in the sex scene, I.
Mean, I loved that. The Twilight girlies it Robert's doing what in this movie? We'll be there and they were like, he is a masturbating a shirtless his asses out a little bit. Enjoy Listen. He's beautiful even when he's that filthy. I have many Okay, so one, you can smell Robert Egger's films, and that's something we're seeing a lot. It's things that people who've seen No Satu are already commenting on the fact that you can almost smell how dirty
the film is. When Robert goes just throw the absolutely not this is a film my life. I've ever seen Aggers's film in forty I don't need to smell it. Oh gross. When Robert throws the shit over the side and it blows back up into his face, I was like, I was having such a hard time. But again, if we go back to this core idea of this is an exploration of masculinity and what it means to be an or what two men thinks it means to be a man, and they're going and their ideas are constantly
a conflict in war with each other. Picking up on what you said about Defoe's performance, there are times where you're really not sure if this is a guy who's like, I need to put you through your paces because this is a difficult job and I've been here for a while, so screw you. I'm not doing all the story. If you're young, you can do it like get to work, or it is my intention to drive you literally mad
because it's fun for me. Right, You cannot tell, and it feels like it changes from time to time, which is something I learned recently on American Psycho. Defoe in that film plays three different versions of his character, so they would have him do three takes. Right, So the first take it is like he believes everything that Christian Bale's character is saying, he doesn't believe anything, and the third take he doesn't know what to believe, and then they would mix up those takes, so you get a
very confused, unsure off foot character. I have mixed feelings about that As somebody who studied directing, I think, yeah, a part of me is like, it feels disrespectful to the actor not to give them the space to make these choices to create a character. And anybody who's edited a film knows you can absolutely make beautiful or destroy a performance within an edit. I think they did a great job with it. In the end. It turned out
to be a decision that works for the movie. But I imagine Edgar sort of gave him the space to make these choices and it works just as well here with somebody who is maybe all three of these things at different times. And that's also very legit for the character. It makes everything Robert gets to do like you are so with him in this of like this guy is driving me creat When he lets him carry a barrel all the way up the spirals in your.
Case and take it back down, He's.
Like, catch your breath, Catch your breath, boy, Okay, I take that back downstairs. I would kill him right there. There'd be no in your sleep for me. I'd be like, well, you have to die, because that's like let's but to be fair, his next response is, if you don't want to set this whole lighthouse on fire, take that back down if it's not safe. But why did you let me get my ass all the way up here, old man, just to teach me a lesson. It's like it's infuriating.
And it does make you think it that is like his goal is to like either teach a lesson, drive him insane, or or or just have fun with tormenting this poor guy. I wanted to say too, just to your point about like if Robert Eggar, if Robert Eggers gave Willem Dafoe the space to make that decision. I really think he did, because I get the impression just from an interview I watched about the lighthouse that I think Robert Eggers takes the opinion of his actors to heart.
Like there is a moment in the interview where he talks about the first lighthouse that they scouted for the movie was the one that they had decided on, and they took the actors the crew there and the actress who plays the mermaid, her name is Valeria Karaman, She's Russian, and she immediately said, what is this ugly Soviet bullshit?
You know, like, what is this horrible mids It was a mid century designed lighthouse, and that's when Robert Eggers was like, yeah, you know what, we can't use this because it's it's not right, and she didn't like it, So we're going to build our own lighthouse on this cape. So I think he does value and that's what I think is respectable in a directors, when they actually value the opinions of their talent and stuff.
Yeah, I think there's a balance of trust that needs to be established, and not always, but sometimes it bodes well when actors frequently return with directors because you understand there's a sense of trust and relationship building there that brings them back and it makes you feel good. And by that I mean I work in this industry and
I know how toxic and awful it can be. And so when there's ever a glimmer of hope that maybe this is a director that people, particularly women, seem to feel good and safe around and creatively free, like, that's always exciting. Yeah, let's talk a little bit about the Light, which is something we've sort of speculated on at the beginning of this episode. At first, I was like, oh, this is a metaphor for when I'm being in my most base instinct. Okay, this is a metaphor for a woman.
It's this thing that they long for that they can't see. But then it's like, no, this is our responsibility and without women. Okay again, if you're going along the American idealized idea of like what a man is this whole like Cowboy, rugged, independent, A key factor, a high key factor. If you've been watching Cross on Amazon, they talk about this a lot, or like, really exploit this idea. If you're a man, you're supposed to be a savior or a hero or a protector or at the very least
a provider. At the very least, your responsibility is to financially and with like care and taking of the land. That is your responsibility. That is the thing that defines you as a man. And if there are no women to protect, but you have this lighthouse, this responsibility of like protecting your fellow man. But it's so offhands right, Like you're not actively in it with your fellow man. You're literally separated from and from a distance supposed to
be trying to help them. It's like, so, okay, so is the light this idea of their But then they literally become like consumed and obsessed over this thing, and you think, okay, well maybe that's about like greed.
You know.
He's like, I want to take care of les, like it's my responsibility. You're not their young buck, I can slow your role. He's like, no, okay. Maybe it's a metaphor for like when do you lose your manhood? Like Willumdafoe's aging, he's older, is he going to age out of this job? And what will he do once it happens.
Robert's trying to make his way, He's trying to get enough money to support himself and build this house and starts to fan like they're at they're both trying to use this pinnacle and they understand inherently one thing that they can't do it together, and is that the light. I have a lot of maybe the light changes, what does it mean for you? How does it come off for you?
You know, I hadn't thought about it like that, but I like the idea that the lighthouse is this symbol of a woman. And you could even if we're if we're going with that analogy, you could even say the conflict they have of like, well, when am I going to take care of the lighthouse? Is sort of like is like when two men are are fighting over a woman, you know, and and who gets to be the one
that cares for and looks after this woman? And you can really tell with Robert Pattens through Robert Pattenson's character, that is something that he's really consumed with with his little soap carving of a mermaid, his dream dreams or actual encounters with the mermaid. Who knows what's actually happening there, but he is really consumed with this idea of a woman when there are no women around, So I think
it could. I think the analogy of the lighthouse being a woman does work for me, But I think it could also be fluid in the sense that it at different times means different things. But the fact that Willem Dafoe like gets naked and like goes up there and you know, bathes in the light feels very much like you know, a guy like going to a strip club and like, you know, enjoying the entertainment of women and stuff like that. So I think it's an interesting analogy to look at it that way.
Yeah, I love the Again, the nebulousness of it has got the uh two thousand and one Space Odyssey vibes of like, who is how supposed to like represent or be? You know, is how your own enterdemon is. The outreach of man trying to explore beyond this whole earth that we've been given is a you know more about I
don't want to break down this movie. I'm sorry, we're on the Lighthouse, but that's the idea of just just to compare it as a cosmic horror, This idea of the unknown and the desire that you can't reach is so fascinating, and we talked a lot in The Witch about vibes in tone, and this film starts off in a fog of cloudy haze, like it's really trying to sell you on the idea of not being able to
see what's directly in front of you. And I think that's really interesting because what these two guys are never able to do is find a real partnership, right Like you're really what's supposed to be happening here is your two dudes who are running a lighthouse. This shouldn't be that complicate. There's enough food, there's enough drink, there's enough
jobs for everyone to be doing. But immediately Defoe is like, I need to be on top, And immediately Robert's character is coming from a place of I need to establish myself here in order to go back and make more money, like he's he's formally like a logger. They're both coming off with some pretty traumatic experiences and neither can give each other the space to sort of be their own person. There is this need to be the most dominant figure in the space.
And Robert Pattinson's character is also lying about who he really is true, and he takes over the place of the real Frahim Winslow and pretends to be Frahim Winslow, which I think is what also kind of maybe is part of because he is trying to conceal something about himself, he's unable to actually connect and be genuine and authentic with Willem Dafoe's character. Oh man, does that make sense?
Yeah, No, that's definitely. That's definitely was my takeaway as well. When we come back, we're gonna talk about the Dollhouse and what that means to Eggers and how it impacts this film. So stay tuned. Okay, we're back. Last week we talked about the Dollhouse. Edgers when he was designing films, right, he has a background in production design, that's sort of what he was studying in college. He goes on to become a filmmaker and when he's staging his films in
his head and he's writing the scripts. Eggers gave a long talk where he was explaining that his films are overwritten because he writes them for himself and he wants investors and producers and everyone involved to understand what the tonality is because they're so reliant on nailing that. So part of that is building literally a dollhouse where he's sketching out like what happens in each moment, and then he was saying that it's really his goal to walk
people through that dollhouse in his film. The opening of his film come off off the foggy water, and then it's a slow walk through the lighthouse and exploration of this whole space. It is both. I think it's like two and a half to three minutes something in there of just scenery and looking around. It builds a creep factor, to be sure. But what I think it does more than that is imbue you to this space as like
a setting. That's a really poor way of saying it, but I just rewatched Young Frankenstein and the Lutro credits. It's a great fucking movie. And the introduction of that film is classic, right. It's the old world. It's inspired by the films of the thirties. In fact, the entire set comes from a production designer in the thirties who they went to his house and they were like, hey, can you tell us how to make this stuff? He's like,
I actually have all of it in my garage. If you want it, you can just piece together and make your own set out of all these old set pieces I have. I think it was the original Frankenstein film that this guy did, and they just took all that stuff and read right, reset it up here, which is very cool. But the opening of that film is just the castle. It's the castle. It's cracks of lightning and credits and what it's like. Okay, so you're in this old world caped place. You see there's some lights. It
gets your brain thinking. And we talked a lot about this last week as well, the three aspects of Edgar's films. I really think that just pacing the floorboards allows you to think, how would I survive in this situation? And again not a life or desk situation, but I'm isolated. It's kind of beautiful. It's a little creepy though, it's all like washed out. It's but it seems scenicd but it's also what if I get hurt? Who would come?
How would you get here? It's so isolated and allowing you to sort of sink in and settle into that space before you meet your main characters. I mean, it's putting your setting first. It's saying the story couldn't happen anywhere, but here. I think it elevates and makes special everything you're about to see because it's like in a mooge booth bosh. I don't speak the language. I'm sure I'm not French. Likely a palate cleanser.
Yeah, yeah, no, it really is. And then that first shot that we get of Robert Pattenson and Willem Dafoe standing next to each other with all their stuff, it's just like they just look they just look so grim and like like, why the fuck are we here? You know, they just don't look happy. They don't look happy. So it really also sets the tone.
It does. It's yeah, it's it's a hell of a movie. I guess we should talk about the ending now. Yes, okay, so we spent this whole movie watching these two men
try to one up each other. There is a power struggle and it yeah, really I kept going backwards and forwards in the last maybe half hour to track the exchange of power, and there's I mean literally, if you were to just rewind and fast forward through this part like I did, it's every two minutes, every three to five minutes, and what is changing is not always clear. And we talked a little bit about it earlier. My big takeaway from watching this film initially was like, Oh,
it's strange. How if there's only two people in a room, you will become what you need to each other. Maybe not in a healthy way, but at some point they're parenting each other. At some point, they're brothers, at some point, they're coworkers, at some point their families, at some point their potential lovers. Like they're going through every possible relationship you could have with a person through this time frame.
And if that's the case, then what your characters are left with is really they're fighting themselves and their entertainments, which again is the core in space of where masculinity, any kind of insecurity lives. And it builds to a point where Defoe's character is reduced to a dog and
Pattenson's character is his owner. It is somewhat bondage puppy play maybe, but also just a complete psychotic break and instead of you know, you might you would expect an unwell person to maybe like beat the dog or to shun and like abandon the dog. Maybe again an unwell person take the dog out and like shoot it. But what he does is he buries it alive. Yeah, what what what does this this meaning ending mean to you?
And also if if this is a film about toxic masculine, what do you think Edgar's takeaway is with this this part of the conclusion it's a conclusion.
Yeah, you know, I don't even know if I have like a fully formed idea yet of what it means to me. But I will say the first time I watched it, I was like, what the hell is happening? What in the hell? Where did how did we get to this? But then you do go there is an escalation that gets us to that point, and I think, you know, I think maybe burying him alive might be a symbolism of like him Robert Pattinson's character, burying his shame,
burying his you know, inadequacyes, those kinds of things. But I don't even know if I have like a fully formed idea of what exactly it means yet. You know, I think I'm gonna have to watch it a few more times to really kind of understand it, especially after this conversation, because you've really kind of given me a
new light on on the movie. But yeah, I think, if anything, he feels ashamed about a lot of things, replacing the actual Frahim winslow lying doing all of this like power dynamic stuff, and then it evolves into a very homo erotic direction where he is really more attracted to women, or supposed to be attracted to women. There could be like a bevarying of shame going on there. I think, you know, I.
Really like that read. I want to bring up. I'm trying to see if HBO will let me share this audio because I think the final speech.
Yeah, Edgars is.
A prolific Shakespeare scholar, studied in school at the collegiate level, like really really loves Shakespeare. Talked a lot about his love of Shakespeare when he was doing The Witch. And I think because this movie is predominantly monologues between men swinging erratically between emotions, no states of being can really get to embrace that idea. And because you're also dealing with death and sort of this operatic level of power,
it works well. And so I just want to play a little bit of the speech that Defoe is as he's being buried alive.
Shut up all all ship breastwork, oh right, aproaching arm sway him up from men's minds and men and heart Promathian plunder stoking eyes with divine shames and horror.
I'm casting them.
Down to David jonas he others.
Stay mind yet in it see oh, the divine passion, the fedders green scent, where no man suffered, what toil is.
Actually flab.
Dot changing.
Yes, the sha who gurdles round the globe.
That's true, go Mesh.
Very Shakespearean in the sense that I had to google a lot of those phrases to actually understand what the hell any of it meant.
I know Davy Jones, but yeah, I was like, okay, so sent to Davy Jones is thrown undersea. To me, the I was just looking. I actually was in the process of looking at Philler's Greeds Afterlife, where there is prepa mirth okay, a filler never stops playing, and dancers you never tire, okay. So talking about being sent to the afterlife. But to me rewatching that scene and re listening to the speech now and having had this conversation with you, I do wonder if this is about And
again I don't think Eggars is so literal. I think his films are open enough to leave it to your interpretation, which is to me one of the best forms of art. I really like art that is specific enough that it becomes universal. This is a really hard element to achieve.
Oh God. Mir Kari, who's a Japanese fashion designer, talks a lot about this in their approach, which is essentially like the simpler, smaller, more unique you can be, the more universally people will understand, reflect and be able to attach to your artwork. That's a very broad way of explaining that, but I think Eggers were a lot of it. It's inside of that bubble. And because he's a director who doesn't talk too much about his work, he doesn't
wind up cornering it into a very solid idea. And so what I get out of this scene is okay, if really like at this is patentson having quote one right. The masculinity race is one by the younger, more up and coming guy, and this is the old guy being accepting his end, accepting that he's no longer sort of a masculine dominant, accepting that it is his time to go. Yeah, but in a strangely in a merry way. And so I don't have to toil anymore. I don't have to
work hard. I don't have to any longer adhere to these ideas of masculinity because I'm going to a place where that no longer matters and I can experience genuine joy I think I experience with him. Yeah, And I think that's a really interesting way, because you see in Patentson's performance that his character isn't getting any kind of joy out of this, even in the light at the end,
which where we come to the second ending. Right, So the first ending is Defoe's character is literally buried alive, perhaps accepting that and being excited to leave this plane and don't have to deal with this bullshit anymore. Who couldn't identify Robert's Like, finally me and this light get to be together, and also I'm gonna burn this whole
place down because I'm crazy, Okay, cool. So he gets up to the light and it sort of radiates and takes over everything, and this is sort of the final imagery.
Yeah, the first the only color we see in the film, which I think is really fascinating too.
Whenever the purple I think of purple hearts, right, like the idea of the wounded warrior, the fact that maybe no man gets out unscathed by the ideals of masculinity. Again, I don't think this is a film that's meant to say this is what it is to be a man. But it's a film interrogating the ideals of masculine and the way that they shape and harm the men who have to live under them, which is a profound and
beautiful and weird and absolutely disgusting thing. You had. It was so so FROs but it worked on a lot of levels. This is a film that I don't know if I'll be visiting again soon, but that I have a deep appreciation for. Like I appreciate that everyone here
was willing to be like weird and uncomfortable. I appreciate that this is a film that wanted to interrogate masculinity in a way that like Fight Club is similarly trying to explore this ideal masculinity, but unfortunately became cool and guys were like, yes, this is what I would have liked. It completely missed, like many people will miss the point.
I don't think the light House will do that. I think, yeah, stay free of that.
Yeah you may miss the point, but you won't be like I want to be like these guys.
Right, I want to model myself after Yeah, I want to.
Be as hot and Vicious's Brad pitt You know, none of that here, even though Pattinson is bringing the body, it's just it's not the same. And so I really appreciate that you love the space that I appreciate the odd ratio. I appreciate that he went back to working with animals despite having a terrible time working with him. Yeah, and his first film, he really to mine Eyes has pushed himself as a director to get better and try new things and get out of his comfort zone. And
I think that's where great art is made. What is the Lighthouse leave you with? And how likely are you to watch it again sometime soon?
Well, this was the second time I watched it in one gear. I do think I want to go back and watch it again, maybe in the new year, and just to kind of again process everything that we talked about, because you know, on my first two watches, I was a little bit confused as to how what the ending meant, you know, but I still respected as like some as you said that something that can you can add your
own interpretation to. I like the fact that he doesn't like lay it on thick in the sense like this is exactly what it's supposed to mean and that people can really add their own, you know, their own thoughts and beliefs into it and just kind of see their own reflection in it. But yeah, as a woman, it doesn't necessarily particularly speak to me because I'm just like, you know, can can everybody stop being such guys about everything and just you know, actually talk and connect with
each other and just chill. But you know, it's it's It's definitely one that I think probably leaves more men with like these thoughts of like, wow, what is my masculinity actually mean? And so I would be curious to get I would be curious. I tried to get my boyfriend to watch this one with me, and he wouldn't watch it with me because he was.
Like, my boyfriend is not that scary. It's more trippy, even scary. Come.
So I really want to get a man's read for how they feel about what men.
Twice we have asked for your opinion, it probably won't happen again, so feel free to just really let us know how you feel about the horror movies and why, and specifically how you feel about this movie before we go. I just want to say with the black and white, I find it really interesting. I actually, while I was watching this, was really thinking about No Serratu, the story and what we have already, and I had to go and I was like, wait, is it in black and white? Nos? Not,
It's in color. But if you look at the images they've released so far, it is very heavily leaning into grayscale, which is a new and fun way. Like again, it's like living yeah, not that shitty filtered blue. Like it's very exciting to me to be like, oh, you're working mostly in black and white, gray scale in it within a color film. And then it seems to me to be really leaning into fire and light a sort of
a contrast to that element. And if you watch The Northman, which you should because we're gonna cover it next week, Uh, they use the blue of the night sky and fire as contrasting points of visual color throughout that film in a resting way. I cannot wait to talk about The Northman.
Uh.
I really love this film, like kind of unapologetically and very much into it. This is another film that explores masculinity, but in a different kind of way, more in an inherited father to son way than a general societal pressure way. And also Anya's back in a very fun, different type of witchy role, so there can be a lot for us to break down in the Northmen.
And it's the one ager's movie the guys on our on our team have watched.
Oh yeah, Aaron, my peachy, that's gonna be exciting. Yeah. Is there anything else you want to say about the Lighthouse before we get out of here? No?
I just love it and it really feels and I know that, you know, Lovecraft is a controversial figure, but I just I love the use of these there. What really captivated me the first time I watched it was the use of that ultraviolet kind of purple color, which is which is known to be kind of like a cosmic horror sort of color. I love the use of like the tentacles and all of these things that make you think like, is there some sort of like monster, Like is there some sort of like unseen monster going
on here? Because it really adds to all of the mystique and the mystery surrounding the movie. So those are the things that I think I really enjoyed about. And of course the performances from Willem Dafoe and Robert Pattinson. Willem Dafoe really nailed. He really nailed his character and really might have.
Been a missed opportunity for Oscars. Too disgusting for the Oscars. But yeah, I'd love to go back and wait. Let's actually, let's see who were the If this movie comes out in twenty nineteen, then it's eligible for twenty twenty Oscars. Let's see twenty twenty eight Oscars. The other question, do you think he would have been best supporting or.
Lead should have been made? I think Robert Pattinson felt more I know that he was kind of the main character, but Robert Patson felt more like a supporting character to Willem Dafoe's performances because his performances were so big and they were so like grand you know. It's funny Parasite won Best Picture that year and Joker had eleven nominations.
Yeah, that was a sad year. It's also the year of Jojo Rabbit, which initially I liked and then I was like, I'm not quite sure how I feel about it. Marriage Story nine seventeen. Once upon a time, we were dealing with some great films and I'm not even gonna lie. I think was that the year? Oh god, what Best Supporting Actor?
He didn't even get Best Director nomination? What the hell?
Mm mmm, yeah, it was a strange year. No, to your point, Carmenate, don't think that there were any nominations for this film. Okay, Best Supporting Actor Brad pitt One from Once Point a Time in Hollywood is clipped booth. Tom Hanks was nominated for a Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood is Fred Rogers? Now, how is he Best Supporting Actor? Someone make it makes sense. He's a titular character. But
oh my god. Anthony Hopkins was nominated for two Popes Appacino for The Irishman and Joe Peshy also for The Irishman. The Irishman. Yeah, I don't think anyone. Again, I'm not sure anybody would have voted for this. It's very disgusting. It's not an Oscar winner.
Yeah, the Oscars are not. As we know, the Oscars are not a barometer for what's actually good the culture.
Necessarily, it gave a keen phoenix his Oscar for playing the Joker, which, okay, fine, listen, it's a solid performance in a shitty film. To me.
It had one nomination. Oh they did win for Okay, it nominated for was nominated at the Oscars for Best Cinematography, which feels okay, Yeah, I mean that's good, but it still feels like I feel like Robert Eckers maybe deserved Best Director nomination at least.
I mean, he's really getting a lot out of these actors. And it's an argument I would have heard, Wait a minute, Best Directors, Bonking home one for Parasite. He should have Sam Mendez nineteen seventeen. That film is a doozy to get through, really like emotionally impactful. I agree with that nomination. Tarantino for a Once upon a Time in Hollywood, Okay, Todd Philips for Joker Again, I say, okay, gets nominated.
I could kick Todd or Tarantino out of this category to make room for Eggers in this I would absolutely hear that argument. I didn't think we're gonna get to Awards talk. But you know, there's a lot of this is again. I really admire the way it's strived to achieve and then accomplished a lot of what its drived to do. I think it is as disgusting as it is it's genuinely beautiful. I do think you're getting some
truly great performances. The range these guys have to go through, the way they're pushing each other, supporting each other too, and no one is ever outperforming. They're only sort of bolstering each other's performances. The dialogue. I mean, really, someone give this man a script writing nod, because the language and the way we didn't talk too much about it
today and we do have to go. But the language and the way he manipulates and authenticates language from the era in the same way that he's manuscripts and stuff to craft the language for it's the wish and use the actual words of children who felt they were possessed and gave it to his characters. Here he found a woman who broke down the lexicon of different dialects along the eastern coast of America, and he used her book
to really to write his own lines. He feels iffy about taking the words of other people and putting it on characters. He's like he was trying to be respectful then he wasn't sure if it was or wasn't. I'm not really sure where I fall along that line, but I do love that he has put so much effort into bringing these languages to life. The you versus ye
conversations like battle they have yees you ye. Yeah. It's magnetic and it exemplifies so much of like they're from different spaces, they had different trades like it really livens the characters, and there is something to be said for being able to write that dialogue and for people who've never heard it before to be able to understand it clearly, you know, not just in the addiction of the actors, but in these words for the most part makes sense.
And if they don't, I can at least interpret from the performance what's happening. Yes, that happens a lot in Shakespeare. It's a difficult thing to pull off. I think he does beautifully, So yeah, I don't. Should we end by ranking the film?
I still think The Witch remains my favorite, agree, but this would be my my close second for sure. Oh, to be completely transparent here, I have yet to watch The Northmen, I.
Compose, Oh my God, imply.
But I am going to watch it on Thanksgiving, so it is going to be my Thanksgiving watch.
Okay, I can't wait to hear your thoughts. I think I'm with you right now. Since we haven't reviewed The Northmen, I will keep it based off of these two. The Witch wins slightly ahead.
For me.
I think the tension in this is oftentimes as as good as the Witch. But to me, the little spaces in between the Witch are not as laborious, and by that I mean ye beats and I can understand more innately myself, like the looks between the parents and the looks between the kids, like there's something more happening there than for me, Like sometimes we're just looking at like house equipment for like thirteen seconds, You're like, oh, Robert, what what are we doing here? To the next thing? Please,
for the love of God. But again, Boody Tony fun gets under your skin. Performance is so dynamic you can't look away from the scream. A solid film and definitely we're checking out. If you somehow got through this podcast and have never watched a film and you weren't sure about it, I highly suggest watching it. It is not very scary. It does sort of mess with your brain. Yeah, but it's good. Carmen, we did it. Thank you so much again for being here. This was a lot of fun.
I cannot wait for our next one.
I know, I'm so excited.
Thank y'all, So thank you guys for listening. You can join us back here tomorrow as we have our first roundtable with They Had It Coming, an episode where we discussed our favorite deserves death from film and television. That on Wednesday, A book is us our next guide of Dude Prophecy. Thursday, we're looking back at our favorite video games of twenty twenty four. I didn't play many, but I'm excited to hear what y'all loved. Thinking him back on Monday, where Carmen and are going to break down
Egger's most recent film, The Norseman. That's the episode. Thanks for listening, Bye y'all. X ray Vision is hosted by Jason N.
Supsion and Rosie Knight and is a production of iHeart Podcasts. Our executive producers are Joelle Smith and Aaron Kaufman. Our supervising producer is a Boo Zafar. Our producers are Carmen Laurent and Mia Taylor. Our theme song is by Brian Basquez. Special thanks to Soul Rubin and Chris Lord, Kenny Goodman and Heidi on Disco Moderata