Warning, Today's episode contains spoilers for Joker Folioder, The Joker is Me. This is actually a special edition of X ray Vision.
You will be getting more of these soon.
This is called x ray Vision Extras.
And today your host Rosie Knight will be interviewing your other host, Jason Concepcion and super producer Duel Monique, who has also been on NPR pop Culture Happy Hour recently talking about this very movie, asking them their feelings on Joker Folio Door.
So welcome back to the show.
Guys.
How's it going I feeling.
I flew back from vacation week in Kawhi, the Island of Beautiful. It was beautiful. It was amazing. Shouts to the wonderful people of Hawaii and the island and the natural splendor therein And I landed and I got some sleep, and then I went to a screening of Todd Phillips's latest masterpiece, Joker to and that was I mean, that's a vibe shift. And to say the least, I'll say this before we really get into it. I think it's a courageous movie vision. I think it's a courageous and brave vision.
I have yet to see the courageous and brave vision as I was not int invited to go and see a screening, and I yesterday instead of going see Joker, Folioda, I went and saw both Godzilla movies that came out recently, Shin Godzilla and Minus one in black and white as part of Beyond Fest, and then I went to the Mahro Academia movie premiere because I like to enjoy my life.
So, guys, let's talk about Joke up folly you duh?
Joel? Will you give us a rundown.
Of what the movie is about and kind of a brief kind of recap of the situation.
Okay, So we're picking up right after Joker, So if you saw a Joker, there's nothing in between, and you just pick and right back up. He's in prison. And imagine every prison movie you saw in the eighties and nineties. That's exactly where you are. Okay, prison subs, guys, it's bad. It's essentially a nineteen fifties mental health institution where everybody's individually locked in their own cells. You don't share, that seems nice. The guards are all irish and assholes for
some reason. And if you're fortunate enough, you get a little wreck time, and then you get to go over to the other prison where the non lethal ones are, and there you're gonna discover Harley Quinn. What up, she's excited to see joker. Kay, yes, listen, she's there.
She's really a big fan.
She's a big fan Bigan.
Harley Quinn is a big fan. Yes, yes, she's clearly in the rooting section. Okay. So his lawyer and his caseworker are there and they're like, hey, do you have d I D and jokers? Like, I don't know, maybe they're like, oh no, definitely, uh. Mentally you have d I D. That's what's going on. We need you to say that so that the court will like help you. The court is not gonna help him, so it's gotta go back.
Yes, this is why I find Okay, Okay, let me pause.
It's it's like, let me pouse twelve like twelve angry men type burdhouse drama with much less suspense.
Wow.
Okay, Jason, I want to ask you a question, as you know, someone who loves Batman like is in the Batman. But this is not sounding very comic book accurate. Does it feel like there's any comic book influence in that vision of Arkham Asylum.
Well, I'll say this, the part that does attempt to tie into the larger Batman universe that exists is kind of like the most it's the weird it's almost the weirdest part of the film. And the film is so fucking weird. Like they do at the end, yes, yes, the very gesture at being like, hey, here's how so actually this crazy movie does lead into the Nolan verse. Yeah, yeah, yeah, by setting up kind of like who the Joker from the Dark Night?
Is wild?
But weirdly, it's like the most discordant part of this of the whole thing, because it feels like the only part of the film where Todd Phillips lost. You know, this entire film is like Todd Phillips being like, fuck you, I'm doing it my way. Fuck you, I'm doing it my way. I'm doing this. So we're opening with a musical thing. The musical songs are gonna continue on. They're gonna go on. Also our lead can't sing, but fuck it,
like we're doing this. And then at the very end it feels like he lost that battle of It's only at the very end where they make the attempt to tie this into Batman movies that exist. That felt like he lost that because it felt like something he didn't want to do.
I'm gonna say, look, I don't want to be here, you know me. I'm a zaz Lav critic, but I will say Todd Phillips has actually surprisingly been very emphatic about the fact that that was his idea and that there's never been another time when he ever said that Arthur Fleck was really the Joker, and so who knows, maybe they paid him money that he agreed.
But uh, let's see how we get there first, Like Joel, what happens in the court?
Okay? Yes, Kittinue okay.
So Joker has this awakening where he is like some what's the song Somebody loves Me? And he's like, okay, this woman loves me. I can transform. Now you get umbrellas? Uh is it true? Shub thank you reference without any music for some reason, It's crazy. The references are here, they connect to nothing. Well, you get to the courtroom and stands everywhere.
The references in this movie are are references from the seventies and eighties. Incredible like these, I don't understand why, Why is it pop culture references from the seventies and eighties.
Okay, it was just him.
It was just him basically remaking it was like ready play a one for Martin Scorsese, So I guess this time he was like, I guess, I bet reference some other old stuff.
With kind of the vibes. When we get to the courthouse, there are tons of fans, and then this sort of movie becomes a little bit about toxic fandom for a minute, like, Okay, the fans are here, they're rooting for him a little bit. Yeah, yeah. Harley Quinn becomes she's like really pushing him. She's like, hey, babe, you're the Joker, and I don't even know why you're trying to fuck around with arth reflect Dude, I don't know him. You don't like him. They don't want him
be the Joker. She's like, I'm like, just like you, buddy, Like we're from the same neighborhood and we have the same problems. I hate my dad, asshole. He died and I was happy. He's like, you were happy when your mom died.
We're the same.
Later, Joker's lawyer comes up and he's like, uh, yeah, I don't know if you know it. But this girl's a liar. She's super rich, her parents are alive, and guess what she checked herself in here. Also, she has a master's degree in psychology, so she's playing around with you.
It's crazy. They did keep that pop.
They we can talk more about whether that works or not later. And at this point, Joker also stops taking his meds, and so Arthur's like, okay, I'm fully going to embrace it. And it sort of seems to be working like the girl likes him. He gets a conjugal visit. It's weird. Back of court, it's super crazy. He fires his lawyer and he starts to represent himself in full
Joker page. The judge is like, hey, look, no rules, but this court will not become a circus, as if he hasn't already lost all grounded.
It is effing chaos. Okay.
Questions that you may have issues up to this.
Point, Okay, So yeah, let's talk about Lee as I believe she's known in her Lady Gaga.
How did that performance go for you?
Jason?
Tell me you said this was a visionary and courageous choice.
Do you believe that?
Goes over to Harley Quinn.
I don't.
She's like weirdly inert in this movie, a lot less than you expect and is a lot less influential than you expect, except for a few moments and the fact that spoiler she outlives the joker. You know, it's She's not a huge part of this film, really, Joelle.
Your thoughts, Yeah.
This film wanted to be a musical, but it didn't, and it has a deep misunderstanding of what a musical is and why musicals exist. Right, So, musicals exist so that when you reach a point of such exhalation or depression, you open up and saying any kind of peak emotion. That's when you sing. There's no organization to the music because she's partnered with Joaquin who again was a great Johnny Cash and was able to keep in that very limited register. It doesn't apply to the songs they selected
for him. Again, there's no musical here was involved with this. I just can't. I'm sorry to the filmmakers, but it just wasn't. How happening with the.
Like I'm very interested in those weird, like old timey show tunes that they picked, like does that?
Oh nothing, here's no here's the bar for song choice. Did it have joker gesture or a smile reference in the song? It's allowed in the movie. I'm serious that it was the bar. There's no other reference point for any of the stuff. Some of these songs are performed in full, some are performed in part. Some are reprised literally five times. It's a chaotic experience. And they forced God Got to try to match with her singing partner, and it just doesn't quite work. She's trying, her voice
is still there. Let her and also let Harley Quinn be a badass like Harley Quinn. We have so many adaptations of this character that work really well, and for them to come in, bring her in, sort of keep the character, but not really let her do anything, and
again a fundamental misunderstanding of what makes Harley Harley. I've now seen a great Harley adaptation where she has no connection to the Joker and seen Sick where she has a good one like a good like built off of what her relationship with the Joker is, and they don't want to really explore that at all, like truly, like
what is the obsession with fandom? This is a movie about a creator exploring fandom from outside of fandom, and therefore he can't actually critique like what's happening inside of fandom. You know, it's just a reaction to it.
I feel, let's talk about that.
Because Jason, like something you were really moved by in this movie, like says like the movie's basically saying fuck you to everyone, right, Like, let's talk.
About Yeah, I'm not moved by this movie. Sorry, sorry, sorry, I just did. I just think that. I just think that Todd Phillips has done something very brave, which is basically say, if you liked The Joker, my billion dollar R rated film, a historic box office smash, The Joker, then you are a piece of shit. You misunderstood everything
I was trying to do, and you're wrong. And now I'm going to drag you across the rugged two hour face of this movie and show you in detail how fucking wrong you are to have liked this character and liked this guy. And I think that's a crazy thing to do and a weirdly subversive thing to do with a megabudget movie, and it's resulted in a product that sucks and is tortuous to watch.
I think that's the big paw Harry's it's an interesting idea.
It's really brave to.
Be like, hey, all the people who like the Joker are just what the critics said, are weird in cell loaners who take this shit way too seriously. Like at one point Harley says, we got to give the people what they want, and that felt like the thesis statement of the entire project, which is like, hey, we got to give them what they want. No, we don't.
But she's also so mad at the Joker at the end, she's like, you stole the vision, you stole the illusion by not committing to the Joker bit, and so she walks away.
Yeah, she's like the fans stand in whose has to be there and be disappointed with like interacting with this talisman of fandom that she is like worshiped, and she just has to be disappointed by the old thing she used to watch them die violently and bleed out. And again, I think that's a courageous vision. I think it's a terrible fo movie, but I think it's really it's really a wild thing to get up there and be like, oh you like you like that, you liked what I did before?
Fucking yeah, I actually that's what really I do agree with you, and I do think that that is a version of a movie like this where I would be like a big fan of it and I'd be like, wow, that's so interesting. I don't believe that will be this movie, just going by how much I did not like the first Joker film.
Okay, so let's let me wrap about the recap that we can talk about that. Yeah, yeah, okay, So what really works for me? So Joker is his own lawyer, and he's Joaquin is doing a crazy like range of like he's a Southern lawyer. He is like a British guy.
He's like bouncing back these personalities exactly, like playing lawyer and like really trying to figure out like if you're gonna buy into the Okay, Arthur doesn't have the idea and he's actually making these choices if and the narrative is not clear, so it's really choose your own adventure here, maybe go to that. Then they bring in mister Puddles, So if you remember the first film, it's his friend with dwarf ism. He's played by h lay Gil in the film, and lay Gill is my favorite part of
this movie, Like he kills his role. He came in and said, I understand what I'm supposed to do. And it starts. It's the only time for me where the movie is like consciously making sense because mister Puddles gets on the stand and he's like, yo, Arthur, like whatever this performance is, it's fucking stupid, Like knock it off, Like you terrified me. You really are. You were the only person who didn't make fun of me. You gave me dignity at work. You were my friend.
And I don't.
Understand this person in front of me. I don't understand why you think this is funny. This is horrible and it's awful, and he breaks Arthur. Arthur is like, I gotta stop like pretending. This is when Gaga leaves. I'm sorry. Harley Quinn leaves. He calls her, sings her voicemail, He's like, come back, like why. A car bomb goes off during the trial and he escapes, kills a lot of people. Harvey Dent becomes two faces. Oh cool, Joker kind of escapes,
he meets Harley. Harley's like, yo, you gave up on the illusion. I hate it. Goodbye. Joker goes back to prison, where he is stabbed by Heath Ledger's Joker question mark, that's the movie, guys, the whole thing.
I believe his name is young inmate in the credits, Andy, I actually did.
Look this guy up and.
He really really really.
Looks like like a Joker.
I have to say this, like, he he does look like somebody who could play the Joker.
So like good costing.
But yes, I will say I think you guys raise a good point.
It does seem that it would be the Joker that we know from Heath Ledger's iconic performance because he basically cuts.
A smile into his face at the end, right, yes.
Which is not something I've seen a lot of ending explains and stuff where they seem kind of confused about, well, this is just how all the Jokers are, but it's not. We know most Jokers are created by acid or falling in the acme pit.
How did that moment go for you?
Because, like you said, I when I read about that, I was like, you know what.
I prefer this idea that Arthur Fleck was never Joker because it's just such a bad origin story for Joka. And uh, Todd Phillips has said, you know, it was never called the Joker. It was called Joker, and and it was never the origin story of the Joker.
It was an origin story.
So he's kind of saying he was planning this from the beginning, But how did this moment hit for you?
Like in the cinema, Jason.
It just didn't. It didn't make any None of this movie hit and for me at all. As you're watching this, Lady Gaga is singing, that's life and the whole thing just wait wait, wait, wait wait are you saying, Angine weird, that's life? Oh god, that's what the people say. Yeah, And so you're I'm just saying, like, listen, if you try to this is what we do on this pod, right, because we are these people who are like, how does
this work in the cannon? If you try and engage that part of your nerd brain, how does this work? It doesn't. It doesn't work.
It doesn't work timeline, it's totally off.
So they have courtright somewhere of who this guy is. They would have their problem, like I didn't they know. Yeah, they got him, they arrested him, they fingerprinted them, they know who the fuck this guy is. Like, it doesn't make any sense. And if you try and do that you'll you'll just run around in circles. It just was, in a weird way, the perfect discordant end cap to a completely chaotic, nine nonsensical movie that again felt purposefully designed to make you feel like, if you like this,
if you were looking forward to it, you're dumb. Fuck you, Yeah, yeah, you're dumb.
Yeah.
Okay, Well, I will say it does seem like the audience understood that, because we are recording this on Monday morning and Joker didn't jo it's it's got the worst audience score a D cinema, any sub morbi a sub may I say, Madam Webb, of any comic book movie made by Hollywood.
Also, I will say.
It only opened to forty million dollars, which is six million less than the Marvels.
So I'd like to see all the comic Let's see all.
The conversations about whether this means white guys shouldn't have a superhero.
I'm sure that's what's gonna happen.
Definitely, son As, we have to wrap, but I think we have time for one last question, and if I could just combine in that for you guys, DC, this is like their fifth flop Aquaman didn't do good. We lost on all versions of Justice League. It's been a string of Blue Beetles, yes, missus, and with the gun Universe coming out, we have two successes with the Reeves verse. Is this What does this mean for DC? It doesn't affect them at all.
I don't think it means anything for DC.
Honestly, this is actually the best thing that could have happened for the James gunnerverse, because if this movie had made a billion dollars again, then the execs would have said, why isn't this included?
So this flopping is actually fantastic.
And I think that Todd Phillips being sassy about James Gunn and the new regime is also great because James Gunn has shown he's not afraid to bring stuff in from the old, stuff like Blue Beetle. Also, Let's be real, one of the best DC movies, and probably part of why James Gunn is in this position is the Suicide Squad. That was also a notable financial flop, but it was a creative master work. So I think this means nothing,
and honestly, it's the best case scenario. So we don't get stuck in this grim, gritty world when James Gunn's universe starts.
I completely completely agree. I think that there's a world in which guns a smart gut and he's probably seeing dailies, weeklies and cuts of this, and I think, to your point, the worst thing that can happen is like, this is a success, and then you have some suits going why don't we handle this? Why don't we hand it to the guy who made a billion dollars with a joke, And I'm Gunn just probably looked at this and went, let me just step back and get out of them.
Yep, that's what Todd Phillip said. He said, they did do with it.
So let him cook, and he's cooked, of course, and now you know, let him cook, him cook, maybe he self out of the ring.
Cook himself out of the running, and make this undelicious movie.
Well, I want to say, guys, thank you so much for sharing this with me.
I'm not a follierder, I'm not the.
Target audience, and I appreciate you guys taking this the team.
And we were right, we were we were right.
We knew this and that happened, and you know what, thank you Joel for always joining us with your insightful, brilliant thoughts.
And yeah that this is the first edition of x ray Extras. You will be hearing more of these soon.
What were your thoughts about Folly? You der head to the discord and that's.
X ray.
Vision is hosted by Jason Kensepsion and Rosie Knight and is a production of iHeart Podcasts. Our executive producers are Joelle Smith and Aaron Kaufman. Our supervising producer is a Boo Zafar. Our producers are Carmen Laurent and Mia Taylor. Our theme song is by Brian Basquez.
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