Warning.
Today's episode contained spoilers for Captain America, Brave New World, and the Wider mc U cannon in general, so be warned. Hello and name, it's Jason gets UPSI owned Hi, I'm rosday night, and welcome back to x ray Vision, the podcast.
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Really, thanks for listening to the news. We're loving to bring it to you. I'm glad you're enjoying it. In today's episode, we are reacting to the long awaited new Captain America film, which is our first MCU film of twenty twenty five. We will be going over what it's about, what works, what doesn't work, and we'll be tapping in
our super producers for a big panel discussion. And before we jump into that very fun discussion, a reminder that we are currently running a listener survey to gather your feedback in ideas for the pod, and make sure that you've read Dead Evil Borne again in time for our upcoming book Club episode on February twenty fourth. Send us questions to our email official XRV pod at gmail dot com, or pop them in the Discord channel where we have a book Club and Dead Evil Born Again channels for you.
Just set the stage for the discussion of this film. Here is the timeline of production news as it happened for the movie was announced in twenty twenty one. Captain America four in the works with Falcon in the Winter Soldier showrunner Malcolm Spellman. This is from The Hollywood Reporter twenty twenty one. August twenty twe and Mackie signs onto the film. July twenty twenty two is announced as Captain America New World Order, with an original release date for
May third, twenty twenty four. September twenty twenty two, Marvel announced that the d twenty three Expo that Shirajas is joining the cast as Sabra March twenty twenty three. Production begins at Trillis Studios in Fayetteville. June twenty twenty three more principal photography. But the dual strikes in Hollywood happened. The writer strike and the actors strike happened at once. And so first the release date is pushed back to
July twenty six, twenty twenty four. December twenty twenty three, Matt Worton, who previously worked on Moonnight on Disney Plus, is added as a consulting producer to work on new pages. This is the first inkling that we're getting that they're going to start reworking this film. May twenty twenty four, g and Coler Esposito is now part of the cast, and twenty two days of reshoots happen, in which his character Sidewinder is basically added to the story as a
secondary villain. July twenty twenty four, Ruth formerly Sabra, is included in the new trailer, and there's some news that the character will not be called Sabra and his non AMSAD agent like in the comic books, and is instead a US government official. And then January twenty twenty five, Anthony Mackie has to walk back the comments that preceded the film, essentially saying I wasn't trying to dishonor the
tr troops. I am a proud American. So there's been a lot leading up to this film, multiple delays, multiple reshoots, characters, added character.
Changer name Yeah.
And that all brings us to February twenty twenty five and the release of After the America Brave New World. We have seen it, Rosie, you and I have seen it. The Expectation crew has seen it, and what are your thoughts?
Okay, So to me, I was actually I went into this with low expectations, which I think everybody knows.
We were not sure about where this was gonna go.
I was kind of surprised. I thought it was a pret tight to our movie. I thought the action was good. I thought that I gian Carlo Esposito as we mentioned a late stage edition as sidewinder. I thought he was a really interesting foil for Mackie. I'm interested to see them do more with that. I thought that the connection between Mackie and the kid who plays Joaquin Torres was really really good. I really enjoyed their fun Danny Ramirez, He's very He kind of has this young.
Energy that I think the MCU has been missing.
This kind of It's not Tom holl Shit's a little bit more funnier, less quippy. I thought those two had a good relationship. I thought that the character chemistry that they did was actually really interesting.
And I also felt like for a movie that has had.
Such extensive reshoots, it didn't really feel that disjointed to me, compared to say, are the MCU things that we have seen, Madam Weber, Well, Madam, you know, it definitely is high above the spermuk Sony universe.
Definitely.
And I'm interested because I did not expect to see the kind of negativity that came out of.
The critics screenings.
Like there were people who liked it, but a lot of the kind of first reactions have been that it was bad or it was disjointed.
I didn't feel that way.
I also have a controversial take, which is like, I don't think that this is that different to a lot of MCU movies that people love. In my the military aspects of it, the kind of huge conspiracy that happens and sets people against each other. They echoed kind of Bucky and Steve's relationship here with Anthony Mackie and Sam as Sam Wilson and Carl Lumley as Isaiah Bradley. I thought that Isaiah Bradley's stuff was very, very good. I was a big fan of how they decided to go
about that. I liked how they showed his powers. I thought the idea of Sam Wilson not having super serum and that being a constant kind of conversation was interesting. We will tap in super producer Joelle later to talk about why that didn't work for her in the same way.
But generally, I think, because one.
I'm a comic booklover and I'm just interested to see a Sam Wilson movie, I will be writing, You'll be able to find multiple pieces by me about Sam Wilson.
He's a comic book character I have a lot of love for.
To me, it kind of just felt like picking up a trade paperback and reading a comic book kind of about you know, Red.
Hulk versus Captain America.
Like that's what the vibe of it was for me, And I thought for kind of a blockbuster, big movie, and also for what people have been asking for from the MCU, which is a move away from the hard sci fi of Eternals or the you know, volume hued mess of Quantumania. As fun as that may be, this feels like a response to what the audience wants, which is pared down kind of conspiracy thriller, crazy action, and the action is very very well shot.
I thought that there was a lot.
Of fun use of sam shield here, which is a big part of any Captain America movie, and we've never gotten as much shield play as we do here.
I like that he had the kinetic vibranium wings.
I thought that led to a lot of fun action in a way we haven't seen before with Captain America or when he was Falcon and we get to see, you know, the younger Falcon who kind of has his own way of fighting.
And wants to learn. I just thought that it was you know, it's not definitely not op that with the best of the MCU, but in my opinion, definitely not down there with the worst. How about you, Jason, I.
Was definitely because of the pre release buzz it talks about reshoots, the controversy over the inclusion of Sabra, that we were potentially on the road to a full like Sony Verse level.
It's Morbon time.
I definitely thought, and.
While I do think that you could sense the choppiness at times, it definitely was not bad. It's not a bad film. It was described in our group chat as aggressively mid I would agree with that. I think that there are some things that legitimately work really well. Like you mentioned, I think the Isaiah Bradley stuff in the rapport that he has with Mackie, the rapport he has with Sam and Joaquin is legitimately good. Like I love their stuff.
I want to see more of them, Like that is something I want to see more of.
Yes, I thought that Mackie has a kind of we you know, we had been concerned that Maki doesn't have the juice, and he does have a kind of juice.
That I think really works well in these kind of group.
Dialogue scenes where there's back and forth. These character moments I think are really wonderful.
And on the reshoots, I have a.
Conspiracy theory that we've talked about, so like, you know, here's my conspiracy theory with the you know, we talked about how the movie scored really poorly with test audiences and they had to do all these reshoots, including adding side wonder Geane Carlo west Posito of the Serpent Society very late in the game, you know, And here is my.
Here's my theory, Rosie.
I think the reason the movie scored so poorly isn't because it was a Madam Web level disaster.
It was because black hero.
White villain, white villain is the president. M why are you why is this black hero beating up the white guy? And why is the white guy so bad and evil? Shouldn't he be better? Can't we redeem him somehow?
Which the movie.
Does redeem, you know, Ross is essentially redeemed. And when you add in the detail that part of what they did was add gene Carlos Posito. Is this kind of like secondary foil? I think part of the scoring. Again, this is just my conspiracy theory. I'm just theorizing, was like can't can't can't the black hero like have a black or brown villain to beat up?
Like why is it always got to be beating?
Also, I think has I think you up bringing up something? That one was immediately a talking point after the movie in the cinema, in the screen where I saw it, because everyone was like, wait a minute, why did this score so badly?
Like it's not like the world, It's not even thought.
I I'm a thought of the dark world, uh kind of truth that.
I think.
There's a lot of interesting stuff there, But I understand why it did not hit the way that it was supposed to. Which is a big part of also what I think it's funny about the MCU as everyone thinks that everything was like a huge hit, but this movie is tight to our action movie, relatively smoothed over for so many reshoots, Like I was surprised by how whole it felt, but you can tell that by these they.
They have to read, they have to redeem.
Where you can really feel the reshoots are. The big dialogue scene between Sam and Ross and the Raft was clearly patched together and renowned several times. In fact, I'm guessing to give it that more redemptive tone for Ross, where maybe in a previous version Ross is just a bad guy who takes the fall and then like see you later lock him in the raft.
Now it's like he's got this whole.
Emotional arc where they bring Betty back, and a lot of you understand that a lot of his emotional drive is he's trying to win his daughter back. He's not He's didn't just imprison Samuel Stearns and use his Gamma powered brain to help him win the White House out of sheer.
Lust for power. It's because he loves his daughter.
Hey, Okay, and they were torturing people in a black site door, okay.
And there were other things, you know, like the other disjointed things.
You know.
Sam Stern shows up at some house like in rural Virginia and kills everybody inside and watches the television and makes a phone call. Am I supposed to know who that person is? I feel like I'm in a previous version of this movie. I probably would have known who
was in that house, but now I don't. So there's things like that, Sabra, I feel like, is I feel like they obviously they're trying to make a mini widow here and kind of reassemble Captain America's cast of characters around him with another with Joaquin as another Falcon and with uh uh, Ruth is another because she's not actually Ruth is another black widow. But and so that didn't necessarily work for me.
But there are things.
But but I was expecting, like truly, like a toxic waste dump, and this is not what that is. This is I, you know, our super decer. Aaron is going to mention not to step on his point that the the the first third act big action scene in which Sam and Joaquin save the world from World War three Sparking between the US and Japan features some absolutely poppy cocks scenes of like shield throwing physics where Sam is throwing but that's what Captain America.
I agree, that is what Captain America is.
Always throwing his shield at something and stopping something unbelievable. Suspension of disbelief is not not broken by that.
But I think that's also because I've been trained that.
I do think the Red Hulk, like the Red Hulk fight worked for me as as not just like an action scene, but also something that.
Carried some of the character.
Story and emotion arc of Sam, which is that like he's genuinely struggling with his ability to live up to people's expectations, to live up to Steve's standards. Steve beat off, you know, like defended the Earth from two different alien invasions and spearheaded the fight against Thanos, and like, what has Sam done? And at the end of that fight, you know, I'm saying to myself, well, Sam beat a Hulk. Sam took on a Hulk one v one and won,
So I thought that was cool. I think it's a I do think it's a mid movie, but it's I don't think it's bad by any means, Like this is better than Quantumnia, This is a this is a pretty good Marvel film with some very interesting things. And I thought they we'll talk about the post credit scene, but I did feel a little light and open ended, which is probably what.
They're the point.
Yeah, And also I would say that I think everybody who has lived through this now almost twenty years of MCU kind of supremacy since the two thousand and eight release of Iron Man, it is easy to only remember the kind of lead up to Infinity War an endgame, where these were the movies everyone had to see, where everybody loved them, and every movie's making a billion dollars and they are like the cinematic experience of you know, a generation for a lot of people.
Right.
There were a.
Lot of movies that came out in those first three phases, iron Man two, even Captain America, the first Avenger. It was beloved by some but were seen as kind of like a weird diversion as a period piece for others who liked kind of the newer.
More grounded stuff.
The MCU has never had a consistency of pure quality. It has always dipped and ebbed, and there has always been movies that some people like and some people don't like, as well as the kind of celebrated movies. And I would just say I personally feel like this is going to be one of those movies that maybe flies under the radar critics don't like it. We also know people, certain people in the critical class, they go into these
movies like looking to hate them. And I think that in a few years there's gonna be some people who are like, well, this is actually like a pretty sick, straight up action movie, political conspiracy thriller for the MCU. I think it's in hindsight is going to be viewed than how it's being viewed now, which I think is gonna be kind of like, well, it's.
Mid but it's not as bad as Quantumnia.
I will say that also, I think that there are also structural things that will keep this is not a This is not an easy jumping on point. I think for for folks right who.
Have never watched a Marvel.
Movie or television program, if you're going to jump on here, there's a lot of things you're gonna miss, which like some of the connective tissue from Captain America, which Soldiers.
It is essentially incredible Hoole Soldier, but.
It's also an incredible Hawk sequel, which I.
Think it's an incredible sequel from a movie from eighteen years ago.
Like nobody really again for a long time even considered part of the MCU. It was like a very controversial thing because it came out at the same time, you know, in the same year as I Am Man, but it didn't have that same hit.
And then obviously we got the change. I was really hoping.
If there was one thing I think this movie was missing, the way that they had Betty kind of beyond the outskirts of this movie. I was hoping that the reason that he hadn't seen her was because she was Red Shee Hulk, because that is what happens in the comics, is you kind of have the two characters going on that journey together. I think that would have been really interesting.
I think also that I'll tell you what this movie fails at, because Jason, this is me and you, the two people who maybe more than anyone on earth, just loved talking about the X Men, Okay, and we have not even talked about the fact that this is the movie that.
Introduces Adam maginam to the MCU.
I will say, in my opinion, that is a failing of the movie because I do think to me, if you're talking about reshoots or things that felt like they probably changed during it, that to me did feel like, oh, we need we maybe had something else that we were searching for, We maybe had a different mcguffin, and now we can just put the word adamantium like on this kind of screen that is going to be in front
of President Ross before he gets attempted assassinated. So I did think the adamantium thing was a little bit neither here nor there, but it is a big deal. As you will know, that is a huge element in the Marvel comics.
It's what created Wolverine. I also am interested.
This is probably me reading too much into it, but something else I thought was interesting. I thought it was interesting to have Japan and America fighting over this adamantium source when in the comics Wolverine has so many connections to Japan.
I was just.
Interested to kind of see if they were going to do something thoughtful.
I do with that side of.
That was like I thought the the casting of Takahiro Hero as the Prime Minister was interesting to me, and it made me wonder if he has a larger role coming in the MCU, because that's a really juicy, great ca and it just leaves you wondering if you're gonna see more. We're gonna take a break and we'll be right back after this. On the X Men front, so
we were talking about the post credit scene. The post credit scene is very open ended, clearly strategically open ended, so that it could mean anything, in which, you know, Sam Suarton says, Oh, I've been looking at the probabilities and they're coming. You know, do you think this is the only world? Do you think that you're the only ones? The others are coming. The others could be Fantastic four, could be another version of the Avengers, It could be.
Yeah, tell us, so it could be immutant. But I want to hate you.
I want to hate you aut theory because you pose it this in the group chat and it's really good. And then I'll come back with the vibe I got from it, which was similar bit different.
So you know, we've been talking the whole time about like, how do they introduce the X Men, How do they introduce the X Men? One of the you know, important things about Marvel comics is that the X Men exist in a world in which people are.
Hate mutants.
There's a lot of hatred of mutants and bias against mutants for a variety of reasons, and that doesn't really exist in the MCU, And so how would you create that. So this is what I think that they're going to. This is what a way I think they could go, and I wonder if this post credit scene doesn't lead into it. So I think that there are mutants now as we've seen. We've already seen that there are various mutants throughout the MCU, and they're now calling them that, right, mutations.
I think what's going to happen is the others, in part, will be these mutants from the worlds in which, you know, the days of future past worlds in which it's a dystopia, mutants are agents slaved in the Asia, it's a full like century, you know, sentinel powered genocide against these mutants.
I think that they are gonna some of these mutants from other worlds are going to come to the MCU, and they're going to say to the mutants that are here now and are peaceful and are basically integrated in the superhero mento human community.
They're going to.
Say, yeah, it's like that now, but here's how it's going. Here's where it's going to go because we're from that world. And you just watch watch what they do, watch their actions, not their words, because they're going to start building these sentinels and they're going to start hunting you. And it's going to happen slowly at first, but you watch that's where it's going. They're going to put you, they're going to kill you.
And I think that the mutants.
That exist here, that are already here, are going to slowly be They're going to become militant because of that message, and they're going to see things in the world that are truly leading them that way. And that's going to be the setup for the X Men, and so you can actually I think there'll be actually like an Assemble the X Men type of situation.
I think I think that you're really onto something there the vibe I got from it, and I do also just want to say, I.
Really like this version of the Leader. I like the horrible kind of horror movie.
You did like it.
I also I love how comic book they went with him his obsession with probabilities and the ability to see.
What is coming next. I think that's very interesting.
My gut says, Originally this maybe said something different, like it felt like he was kind of warning about Galactus or the fantastic forecoming and what that would mean. My gut was similar, though in the way of what the others meant. It definitely felt to me like maybe some kind of grizzled alternate universe heroes who at first you're
going to think are bad, but are actually good. I also think one of the biggest interesting takeaways here story wise is you have a sad I'm Wilson ends this movie and he wants to restart the Avengers, which is something he was inspired to do by Thunderbolt Ross. He asked Joaquin Torres, so, I think we will have two Avengers teams by the end of this year. We will have Sam's Avengers and we'll have the Thunderbolts. So we're essentially going to be the Dark Avengers. So I think
there's some really interesting stuff seeded here. But let's let's tap in our Let's tap in our more critical super producers who have some thoughts about what didn't work in the movie.
Aaron and Joel, thank you for joining us.
Welcome to the haters corner. What's up, Aeron, I'm gonna let you go first.
Yeah, yeah, you guys.
Discussing the possibility for introducing the X Men just now in that quick five minutes was more interesting than anything that happened in this movie.
Kevin Figy, did you hear that? Hire me and Jason, Hire me and Jason Baby?
I mean, yeah, I definitely do that. A You had a lot of thoughts.
Aaron, what was your Yeah, well, tell us your you you saw it first, so just like tell us that's what your reactions were pre any of us seeing it, because you got to see it like ten in the morning in New York.
As Jason mentioned, I thought Act one was very strong, and I was excited as I was going through Act one. You have that opening scene where he's trying to steal the shipment and the dealer didn't make it, and Gen carl Esposito is speaking in Spanish and he's very menacing.
It was great.
And then you have the fight where Sam is getting beat up and he doesn't have the shield and the huge guy is fighting him and Sam's quipping back and forth with him. Loved that, and then you get gen Carlo Esposito, like attacking him in the car and you know, shoots through the window, throws.
The grenade in.
I loved all of that, and then it just starts to slow down. I felt like, I feel like a lot of in some ways the movie wasn't sure what to do action wise, Like we have this character who flies, and we have Danny Ramirez, let's make top gun. But also when we're making top Gun, he's got to use punches and kicks and throw his shield in mid air and then when they get back down, like the hand to hand combat stuff. I actually thought they used the wings pretty well and I really loved.
Red Hawk the Red Wing.
I love Red Wing. Loved the way that that was used throughout, like whether it was in the Red Hulk fight and like kind of doing you know, distraction fire or whatever. So I thought that stuff was all really good. But I do think it just it kind of petered off into act two, and by Act three, I was like, God, if we get another climactic scene where Sam talks them down, and it's like another you have to do better, mister President. I'm going to be disappointed, and of course that's how
it ends. And I was like, okay, wow, here we are another Like, you know, I know the whole movie is supposed to be about him coming to terms with he's not Steve, but he also deserves to be a hero. And it find message, and a good message. I don't think they necessarily really delivered it well enough, but I also didn't need I know why they tried to do that. He is he's a he's a counselor and this is this makes it sense for that to be his superpower and how he kind of gets the job done in
the end. But it just felt so strange to be like, here's Red Hulk, who's been catastrophically destroying everything, hasn't said anything, has ripped your wing off, and then you just were like, hey, hey, turns out Jepanese.
Did not seem like the most realistic part of the entire movie was you have this extremely destructive, rage filled president who destroyed the White House, has previously destroyed Harlem and other fucking things. I'm gonna say and think, and you gotta redeem this guy, right, He's not bad?
Just how crazy is that?
How crazy as a piece of content that lives in twenty twenty five, in the world that we live in. I don't like that story, but I also understand why they did it, and because again back to my conspiracy theory, I think people reacted to whatever the first cuts of this movie were and were like white president to evil, make him nicer.
But it's not a good story if you feel backed into only one way of resolving something, and as the writer, you have to do that.
I will also say that I just want to point out here as well. I do think Aaron, you touch on something that is one of my issues. I wrote a piece about this for Polygon about this movie, about this character. I think one of the biggest failings of that whole like he's a counselor thing is that in the comics he's actually a social worker and he's not military and he cares about his community. It's so embedded
into who he is, and Sam is not military. That is something they added later, and it was also something that was really focused on in the movies here the same way that they made it so Rody was a warhawk, whereas in the makes he is a pacifist because he was a veteran, and I do think that that angle of Sam, they wanted to bring it in here more, but I don't think they did the work in the movies in general, in the mc with his characterization to make that thing, Whereas I think what works here is
actually Sam's personality and his connection with other characters. Also, Jason, you make a great point because I do believe that you are right about the testing, especially because what has the trend been for the past few MCU movies. Every villain is black the Marvels, the villain is black. They are always bringing in black villains. Obviously, Kill Manger, iconic black villain like. They are Flag Smasher black villain like.
They have been making a lot of black villains in these movies Kang obviously black villain like, and they have been using the idea of like casting diversely to make a lot of really kind of big, bombastic black villains. And I think this is probably the first movie that tested for a while that had a white villain and
Thunderbolt Ross. I also think that it is kind of funny to watch this movie in twenty twenty five because I was thinking, like, oh, if Disney actually goes there and makes Ross the bad guy.
This will seem like it's making a statement. I don't think thisy I think that statement.
I think they were absolutely terrified of making a statement.
I think that's what was clear in this movie. That's veryeah, can we yeah, Joel.
Yeah, I'm gonna zoom out.
A little bit and just try to.
Judge this movie based off itself. And I agree with you guys that this movie is fine. I think I wrote aggressively made in the chat.
Yeah, I.
Think that's a very fair abuse.
And I knew we were in huge trouble when my audience the only time my audience got rowdy when Bucky showed up. I said, this is not good. This is not good because you have moved someone who's been in a second tier buddy position up to your number one on the call sheet.
You're your top lead guy.
And then very early or i'll say late in the first act, you get a statement you need to be remaking the Avengers.
We need them back.
If you have somebody who's also a second who hasn't been bummed up to number one, the audience is twenty times more excited to see that person. You don't have a leader and you didn't make a story that evolved him into a leader. And that's really a problem. That's a huge problem because I don't think general audiences are going to want to see this version of Sam as the leader of the Avengers, not because we could throw
race and all this. Yes, throw obviously behaters, that's consistent, but he doesn't have the gravitas or the Jews, or really the appealing storyline of let's say, a black panther. And for me, as a black Marvel fan, this is a huge This is our first black American character leading a story period.
So you don't think that in that You don't think in the aftermath of this that guy beat a hulk. No, isn't the resume builder for Sam. When they eventually do put the.
Ams why you don't get the emotional beat of holy fuck, how is he gonna do this? You don't get CAP's arm is broken. They didn't have.
They didn't have the broken moth moment.
They did though he crushed his mask. They rip his wing off.
But did it hit? Is what I'm saying. Like, when you think about the moment of like I will.
Say in Civil War, is more impactful than CAP's wing being I disagree.
I do want to say, Okay, Jason, well, I just.
Want I think that.
I think Matthew is good in this, and I think again, this is a movie that plays to his strength, which is a lot of these dialogue scenes, these two furs or three four scenes where he is, you know, just playing this wonderful banter in chemistry that he has with
the other actress. I don't know that he has the ability to command the screen on his own, or the problem, has the ability to go to the kind of like emotional desperation that even that that Roady goes to in various parts of the MCU, whether it's when he's injured in the post injury or when it's post snap and he's trying to organize this like search forthan also and other things like he's he conveys this like oh shit,
like we're fuck. I don't, I don't know what I'm this is really hard that I don't know that Mackie ever had. I don't know that he has that gear, is what I'll say about Mackie, who I again I think is good in this, but I don't I think you're right in this sense that like he's not his juice is a different type of juice, and it's definitely not Don't type of juice.
I just think the storyline isn't there for him to be able to deliver that kind of like for example, I did not know Sam was a social worker instantly.
That's true. I will never tell you that they don't want to talk about that. It makes me very mad.
And I think too if you talk if you have friends that are veterans or family members, a lot of them have really strong opinions about the military, and we never much on that. We are still exactly how cinema and the military works in order to get your military, tanks, military the script.
It's the whole thing for it.
Disney wants to no, no, no, But I agree with you, Joelle.
I do think it's I think it's one of the weakest parts of the way that they've treated Falcon and also Rody and also every black character that they militarize, which they have done with.
Pretty much every black character.
Also, I would look this is again I think I'm coming into this with because my expectations were so low. I think I do have a more generous reading of the movie. What I will say I don't think it's intentional to make him feel like he's not going to lead the Avengers.
And I do have to say I thought it.
It's pretty crazy to be in a screening when we have been in these screenings for years where the moment that like Victor.
Timily comes on, like someone's cheering.
Was it me yes, to be in a screen where they say Adamantium and nobody cares. They say we need a new Avengers team and nobody cares now, but.
That is a franchise problem.
I actually think that what is being set up here or what could come next if maybe this is not what they were thinking of. But we are gonna obviously have two Avengers teams, and I think Bucky and the Thunderbolts are gonna be the favored team and they are going to be the actual heroic team. And I think that Sam's underdog Avengers that.
Is going to be a few different people.
That's going to maybe be more of a kind of like there was an Avengers team in the comics around the time of Marvel Now where there was Sam Wilson Captain America, there was Captain Marvel. There was a different setup of characters. I think there's gonna be a set, there's gonna be two teams, and I do think that Sam's team is gonna end up being the underdog team
compared to the favored government, you know, villain team. So I think that that is actually to think, oh, does this man have the power to set up the Avengers. I actually think is an interesting conflict to introduce, and that Will could play into it. But I also understand how I might be looking at it too generously. But I personally was surprised. I felt like the movie came together pretty well compared to other chopped up nightmare superhero movies.
You'll see it's n MCU. They haven't been doing great recently.
Yeah, to me, the problem is two fronts, and it's problems we already Disney had. And I think what was more disappointing is like, it's great that it's not Quantumnia. I don't know what happened with that film, but it was god awful and it's literally unwanted.
I can't rewatch it.
But it's the rick and mortification combined with the volume. It becomes like a very specific experience. This is nice to see real cinematography back again.
Wait, this had real so in photography there.
I thought this was shot.
I thought this was very.
Well Yeah, especially compared to even like Phase one through three Marvel movies, which color palette I love, those movies can be very very bland. This hands like an interesting This looked like there was an interesting texture to the shots in this.
Even like Ros, the.
Color has been nicely saturated at the Oval office was like really blued.
Maybe the assassination scene of Ross, like doing this speech in front of like the world leaders, I thought that looked really good.
I thought, like, but this is I guess I'm.
Docking it too much for the very end in the climactic scene when it looks like, yeah, it looks like he's standing in front of a tarp.
In his jackyard.
So like that clearly kind of ruined the video.
But you clearly did that fifty times and over the course of like three months leading up to the release of this film, like can you come back and just green screen this again again again again?
Like that was That was the one moment where everyone in my row was like looking at each other like, God, wait, but I think that finished.
I think the problem is like if you the two problems isn't he had? Is like one we know their TV shows weren't connecting with as wide of an audience, and because they're interconnected, Bucky scene is literally just a thus fastest recap you could possibly do a Falcon and Winter Soldier.
It really it was.
It was literally just him being like, if you didn't se the TV show, don't wry we it's gonna catch up real quick on what happened and go. And because of that, I think, and because you don't integrate enough, Like I would have loved to have seen Sam call his sister.
I loved his sister in that show. She was like one of my favorite parts.
But she was not in this movie, not.
Mentioned, not called when he's coming into stress.
These other characters that we have, like if I think like black Panthers, to me, it's top, it's upper echelons.
It is one of the top MC of course.
And in that film, you have a set of characters that are family and friends and love interest. You have a king trying to step into this like new role. He's coming off of uh A civil war. We has this great arc of basically going from Brady injured prince to confident leader.
What is Sam's arc here.
There's no change to this. He doesn't He's not different from when he started. And the goal of this movie is Sam understanding that he's different than Steve and being okay with that was the goal of season one of Captain America, Win your Soldier, And so if you follow both, then you're like, what did I watch this movie for?
Okay?
Let Well one, I would definitely bra watch this movie The Falcon and the Winter Soldier.
Are you going to rewatch this movie? Are you going to rewatch this movie if somebody said.
To, because I'm a sicko and I do watch.
Me too, I rewatch. I'm a sick to I rewatch.
The reason I rewatched this movie is, look, Joel, you are such a thoughtful cryptic when you come to this idea of like the narrative of the fight scenes and like where what does it tell us about the characters? The truth is, sometimes I do love to think about things like that, and sometimes I just love to see somebody like do a sick head kick.
I want two, maybe three great stunts in this film. However, Anthony Mackie, and again not to dump on Anthony Mackie, I think you're a fine, actor sir doesn't have the listen. We know there's like three ways to film a punch to make it look impactful. It was like, overall the fights weren't giving holy shit.
I don't know, Okay.
I find that very interesting because I personally thought that the action was like a standout part of this and something that I thought was really interesting that felt more like akin to the TV shows and.
The dead evil of it all.
I felt like the action in this felt way more violent and like I could feel the punches than your usual MCU movie where I feel like everybody's superpowered, everybody is like kicking each other and nothing really happens. I felt like in this I could I could feel the fights, I could feel the punches, I could feel the impact in a way that I think fit into what they were trying to do with this movie, which is take it back to that grounded space.
Now, I'm going to ask you guys a question, because I think this is something we.
I do agree with you.
I don't think that Mackie, I don't think that Sam has I think the arc clearly was intended to be Guy doesn't feel like he can lead the Avengers. Guy now feels like he can lead the Avengers, right, that was supposed to be the arc.
I think.
Again, to take this movie as it is, Sadly, I do think that it is a sad reflection on our culture that they clearly retooled this movie to give.
Thunderbolt Ross the arc.
Like the arc is Thunderbolt Ross. The arc is a redemption arc of thunderbul Ross, who's a good man and you got to find the good in him.
Sadly, Yeah, and sadly.
I think that this movie was clearly significantly retooled so that Sam would be the vehicle of Ross's redemption rather than the agent of whatever his transformation he was gonna go under. And I think that fucking sucks. And I think that that significantly, in my eyes, weakens the movie and makes it like pretty jarring in that sense. But I also think that it is a pretty accurate reflection of you know, where we are so in his society in the year twenty twenty five.
Yeah, I agree.
We'll be right back after our.
Word from our sponsors.
Yeah, I want to ask you guys a question because Sarah is something we haven't talked about here, which is like the kang of it all, like, this movie is coming out post what was essentially supposed to be the setup.
For in the wider MCU.
Of this new huge villain of Kang, the conqueror of all the Kangs, the Council of Kangs. We know that's not happening now. How much of that do you think enough this movie or whatever the movie was meant to be about, because I do think that was probably a massive change for them, because this would have had to deal with that post Quantumania.
Yeah, and they're making this in the chaos of because according to like Disney execs and if read the articles and stuff, they were like shocked that people didn't like what they thought they had a hit, and they did.
They thought they were doing exact Yeah.
So if you're making a film in the middle of and and you're like we have a hit and everyone's like no, we hate You're like shit, everything has to change, and then you have a legal court case where this main character, it probably did impact it, but I think based off the way the MCU is set up.
It shouldn't have impacted it to such a degree.
If because Thunderbolt Ross was always supposed to be like you're you're big, bad in this movie, right, I don't think it was originally King, and so if that's the case, then Kang is a side thing. Maybe there's like a side element, but most of these movies should be able to exist as standalone properties. And I think if like it was, they put back in there exactly like if Thanos comes in, he does damage when he's there, but if he's not there, then he should be a secondary thought.
I hope that's not what affected it.
I don't see why it should have been such an impactful thing.
I just think like they were trying to set up a new Fanos esque villain. So I think, for example, post credit scene, probably who the leader was have been warning about. I think that the world's coming together to have this kind of treaty may not have been about Celestial Island if Kang was the threat that we thought he was going to be, I think that they were
in an unusual situation with this movie. And I will say I also think that it was pretty clear that at some point Marvel was not as committed to this movie as Thunderbolts. There was no it was kind of crazy that the super Bowl didn't have a spot for this movie.
I was coming out, you know, a week after.
That.
But also I think what they're doing is I think what they're doing is which they used to do with them seeing movies too. I think that they're like, here's a trailer. If you want to go see the movie, go see it. Hopefully it will find its audience and it will become like a bit of a you know, a word of mouth success, or people will like it or they won't like it. What I find interesting though, is I was thinking about this on the way homes.
How much did this movie cost? Because what we've all wanted is like a smaller, more pulled back MCU little weird adventures as you do your huge, big movies. I think this fits into that, though it is definitely more of like a B grade movie than your best MCU movies. But if this movie still costs like two hundred and fifty million dollars, then what are you doing? That's what I think the big problem is is like can the MCU make smaller, more intimate.
More kind of whole movies.
And I will say I did think this felt like a movie where everything was tied up, which becomes an issue if people want those movies and we've had this since I mean spider Man, the last spider Man movie, the last toime olin spider Man movie, everything since then has felt like it's meant to change the game.
And it all gets tied up within the movie.
And I will say this does that too in a way that I felt like probably made this a better movie rather than trying to set up something much, much bigger. Obviously Avengers is gonna happen, but I'm interested because it also probably still costs three hundred million dollars.
So in that case, like.
What's the point of making a smaller movie if you're still spending all this money on it, and then you're gonna not do a real kind of massive push publicity wise. You know, this has been quite a small publicity trail, and I didn't even know that last night was the world premiere. Usually those things are very violent. Yeah, last night was the world premier, that exactly, and that that is why that's why our screenings were last night, so the social embargo could drop after the premiere.
And I think there's something I think one they.
Knew because of like as we talked about, like there is a lot of controversies this movie is people are calling the.
Boycott this movie.
Like there is a lot going on, So I think that pushing forward for Thunderbolts, I understand it, But I just think that there's a muckiness around this movie that I don't I don't get what they were going for, like commit either way.
I just think that they can't.
Like I think that they maybe, you know, the original whatever previous cuts existed were probably like a little more whatever progressive, hard hitting something had a more of a message. But I think we're just like in an environment now where Disney is terrified they just put down a shareholder revolt by right will you know, right wing very hard
figures within within their investor base. We're under a administration that is looking to like attack dog like anything that they disagree with, and I think they're just trying to like, let's just get this movie out there and like have hopefully have no one notice it too much.
That is, I think I think that the feeling is put this movie out and then maybe it will find its audience after rule. But I think that the MCU is in a place, and Disney is in a place, and the world is in a place where we shouldn't be doing that with movies. Make the best movie. And I say that as somebody who did enjoy this movie. Actually I thought it was I kind of had a good time watching this movie.
We also live in a world in which, like a major, a major.
World spanning tech company renamed the Gulf of Mexico the Gulf of America because people because kiss the Ring like this is this.
Is very unfortunately where we are.
I think where we are at, and I think that this movie, in a lot of subtle ways, is a reflection of that and maybe the best they could have done under the circumstance.
Does Marvel wish this came out last year like originally intended?
Yeah, for sure, absolutely they wish.
I think they wish it came out.
They wish it came out in twenty twenty.
I was gonna say they wish they wish this came Dude, do you understand how long it took them to have, Like it took so long for Black Panther to come out, It took so long for Captain Marvel.
To come out, Like they are still playing catch.
Up on having movies that are not led by white people and not led by white men, and are.
A waging internal fights with whether or not they should do it, like you know again, like the part of that investor rebellion was spearheaded by a guy who was like, we shouldn't do Black Panther.
Yeah, he didn't want Black Panther. He didn't want Captain Marvel.
And I think also something that's really funny in that state, in that part of the conversation is like, even Sam becoming Captain America in the comics took like fifty years, even though every single comics person was like, oh, this is Steve's best friend. Of course when Steve leaves in the eighties, in the nineties, this is gonna be the guy who becomes Captain America. People wrote letters about it. Nick was a big proponent of it. There has always
been this fandom. So even in and that way, Sam becoming Captain America not until like twenty fourteen in the Rick Cremmendu Carls Pacheco stuff, which they get a really interesting thanks actually at the end of the movie that was a new kind of Marvel thanks about how the important input that they kind of gave, which was more about what they took from the comics, But like even that was so late, and then the next Run of the Guy who took it over with Nick Spenser was
very controversial and not even particularly well done. So they're playing catch up in the comics and then the movies are playing catch up, and Jason, I think you really summed it up. They wish they this came out in twenty fourteen. This is like a Phase two. This is like a Phase two mid movie that could have been kind of radical if Sam was Captain America back then.
You know, now we stand in this place where as Joelle and Aaron mentioned, like almost like what is the point of a movie like this right now?
Like is it a great movie? Does it make a statement? Is it either one? Like it is a do.
Any of that? Trying not to make a statement and to do that just simple yeah.
Yeah, I don't know. Joe'll go for it.
I was the inn just fails to be entertaining because I agree with you, Rosie. If you're not going to go political, that's fine, I get it. I understand your business. You gotta keep pushing forward. But then this should be the most bombastic, intense fight scenes, like high drama, like give Sam a love interest, do wealthing that makes it like would have been.
So please especially because I thought that the woman I thought the actress and the character of the presidential Aid Taylor, I thought she was so great and was.
Fingers interactions script about there is a script where they do not just that probably tested like I.
Felt like there was a script as well where she knew what Ross was doing or she had some insight into it that felt like there was a connection there that I would have loved to see explored. And I also think another interesting thing about this movie, and I think Jason, you really summed it up with What's going on in the world, is like what they've really done here is they've left the movie open for interpretation, because there's a version of this movie where you still have that,
you know. They definitely felt like they were doing something very radical. And they showed Sam on the other side of the bars in the raft, and they showed Thunderbolt in the prison like they wanted to say, look at how things have changed. Look at this man who was one time in here and now he is the one who's seeing it. They want you to be able to read it that way. They want to have you know, Sabra in there, but not ever name her Sabra and
change her backstory. But there are still like so many people who will not watch this movie because of what that means. And I personally do not think that they needed to keep her in the movie. If you're gonna edit out, if you're not going to commit again to what that character means, which does have a very racist history,
is like, then don't put her in the movie. But then they keep her in the movie and they kind of re interpret her and then also nerf the character, like there's no point in the character you can cut her out of pretty much.
Again, only there was some government agent could be female that Falcon already had some backstory with. Uh yeah, geez, I wonder if there was someone they could have used there, huh.
I mean, imagine how cool it would have been, like if we'd have had Maria, I mean, you know, Monica Rambow in this movie. Like, but again, I do think that there was a fear of turning this into a black movie for.
Some reason, and I don't know why, and I think ironically insanity.
Don't even get me started. They don't know what they're doing over there when.
It was again in African country, you know what I mean, Like.
They even mentioned they even say they say, Joel, they say, if we should own Adamantium because Wakanda is an isolationist like nation that will not you know, that will not share it.
That's why they want to own Adamantium.
You know.
So I think that you guys, I love this podcast because you mean.
It's mutually like I went to this movie and I thought, you know what, that's the action movie. Cool, it's an MCU movie. It's like the MCU. It's not the weird stuff that I love. But I but I actually think that we've touched on something very interesting, which is kind of like the muddled messaging of this movie and how the journey that it's been on has left it without any sharp edges that could have potentially I mean, people love Captain America in the Winter Soldia.
But they love it it's political.
Well, I think the sharp edges are there, it's just that you have to actually like look through the matrix to see them again. They talk pretty They talked pretty openly in this movie about how Thunderbolt Ross destroyed Harlem and is a fuck.
Up and that is now president.
You know.
They they they lay into him very very openly, or like this guy fucked up a million ways to Sunday, destroyed an entire neighborhood in fucking New York, and now he's my boss because he's the like they and so that's there, Like he has a black ops prison where he keeps somebody who keeps he keeps his half and the guy who got him like elected president exactly.
And also the uh the watch the Virginia based secret prison.
Guess where it was actually Sam Pedro baby they found. I was. I saw it. I was like, that's my local park.
I love this for me.
But yeah, actually this conversation, guys, I'm gonna have to go see it again and kind of work out where I land on it, because I I do think, Joelle, let's go and watch it for the action and just go in with that, because I actually think it's I think the action is really good, and I think, aside from everything else, the chemistry between Joaquin and Sam is all so really good.
I want to see them together again.
I love Isaiah, but I'm now very interested in.
How the movie.
Reflects twenty twenty five as like a piece of cinema where you have to where we're living in a world where one of the biggest tech companies changed the name of the Gulf of Mexico to the Gulf of America to like for no reason.
They didn't have to do it, there was no law.
I think this movie stands in a very interesting place, Jason, as you say, as a movie that kind of reflects where we're at, where you can make a statement, but then you kind of have to walk it back. And obviously we actually saw that as we talked about at the beginning. But like something I wrote about in my piece is like Anthony Mackie understands and understood that Captain
America is not about representing America. It's about representing the best of the people, and it's not always about aligning with the government. And when he said that, something that is true to the comics and a major part of Captain America's history, he had to go on an apology tour saying that he loves America and that he was against the troops.
So I think that like this is coming.
Out just like a completely wild time and the movie is a.
Reflection of that.
Actually, Well, thank you Joel and Aaron for joining us. In the next few episodes of Extra Vision, we're diving into the finale of your friendly neighborhood spider Man and getting you prepped for Disney Plus's upcoming Garret obleboard hand.
That's a for this episode. Thanks for listening.
Bye x ray Vision is hosted by Jason Sepcion and Rosie Knight and is a production of iHeart Podcast.
Our executive producers are Joel Monique and Aaron Kaufman.
Our supervising producer is Abusafar.
Our producers are Common Laurent Dean Jonathan and Bay wag.
Our theme song is by Brian Vasquez, with alternate theme songs by Aaron Kaufman.
Special thanks to Soul Rubin, Chris Lord, Kenny Goodman and Heidi Our discorded moderate though