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episode six and and Or episodes one through three. We're releasing two episodes this week, so be sure to check out both for our full conversation. Hello, my name is Jason Sepsio, and welcome to X ray Vision, the Crooked podcast where we're deep it's your favorite shows, movies, comments, and pop culture. On episode two this week, the episode you're listening to, we are talking to Shee Hulk head writer Jessica Gal and we will be discussing She Hulk episode six with it, which is a crazy crazy it
just goes crazy. The episode goes crazy. And we will be discussing the latest entry in Star Wars television and or episodes one through three or out now on Disney Plus, so we'll be talking about that in a more general way to give you give you all time to digest the episodes. Then we'll be going on a deeper dive in weeks to come, and of course joining us today is Rosie Dyke.
It's me.
I'm hey yeah. Let's go.
As always, everyone, check the show notes for the time stamps. If you want to jump around and listen to the things that you want to listen to. Let's go back into the courtroom or the wedding, the wedding hall, whatever the case may be, and talk about She Haul. Episode six, Episode six, Just Jen, written by Cara Brown directed by
Anu Vallia lots to get into quick recap. Jen has to go to a wedding where she discovers that her arch rival, her arch foe, Titanya, is also a wedding guest, and is this some sort of part of this some sort of plot for Titanya to defeat Jen publicly in
front of everyone. And then back in the law firm, Mallory and Nicki are dealing with the case of a gentleman who goes by the name of mister Immortal Dun Dun Dun dud du Duh, who cannot die because you know, according to the comics, he's a flat out mutant and he has been using this power to not die to you fraud, various romantic partners and business partners by quote unquote faking his death. Lots to get into, so let's just get into it. Fun episode once again.
This is just such a fun show, and I feel like I'm really impressed by how much fun they have digging into the weirder parts of Marvel. Like, obviously, mister Moore, that's a big deal. So technically he is everyone in the Marvel universe sees him as a mutant, and technically he is a mutant. But the thing that's really interesting is he is the only member of the evolutionary race known as the Homo Supreme, so he's like one above a mutant, but he is for all extents and purposes
and presents as Homo Superior, which is a mutant. So yeah, it's it. That's just like huge to have him here and also just use it in such an absolutely hilarious she Hulk way where it's like this guy has been defrauding people he loves because he can't have confrontation by just killing himself. It's like really bleak but also very hilarious and very comic.
Bookie, and he he is like this is an extremely big episode in a lot of ways, because it shows us not only that the creative team here obviously absolutely hilarious.
But also this is the most comic book nerdy. Yeah, Like, like.
He talks about when he's there, he's talking about how he's got a lot of money, right, and part of how he got a lot of money is because his ex wife left him a bunch of gold Baroness Cromwell aka Baroness Blood. So this is just like they were just like, yeah, go for it. They were like, so, tell us, who are up.
Tell us who Baroness Blood is, and then let's dive into the really actually quite funny backstory of who mister Immortal is, at least in the comic.
Yeah. So, Baroness Blood is like a really weird, creepy character who was first introduced hilariously in everyone's favorite comic Uni and Jack Number one. So she's actually from nineteen ninety eight, which isn't obviously that far away, but she is part of now like most well known as a part of the Legion of the Unliving, which is like a group of vampires who were brought together by Dracula.
So you can basically say, like we've had a Donnie Blaze Johnny Blaze joke, in this season, we're now getting into the realm where vampires probably exist.
They're now just mutant surgery casually.
Not only that, but as we as we guess, so I'm taking this as we were right. We said post Miss Marvel, what they were going to do was just introduce random mutants here and there. They're gonna say, here's a mutant, here's someone who's been living with these crazy powers, and we're just gonna build them into the the world. And that's exactly what they're doing with mister Immortal, and with the way that they're just casually kind of dropping
in these things. I mean, Baroness Blood is like a supernatural, superpowered vampire. Makes sense that she would have married an immortal. I mean, that's a that's a her cup that works. But basically you can now say that vampires one hundred percent do exist in the MCU.
Let me ask you this. My friends, comic book critic and sports writer Matt Turtle DMed me and he was like, hey, I think you were talking about you and Rosie were talking about why does Atlantis come to the fore. I think they're going to do when they introduce mutants. I think it's going to be similar to Atlanta's secret Society Krakoa era, and they're all there and they reveal themselves and then it's a question of how they, you know, then become part of the wider society of that's indeed
what they decide to do. I kind of agree that I think Krikoa is going to be around. But here is what the appearance of mister Immortal suggests that, because if Krocola is a thing, then mister Immortal should be on the island, like why are you unless he's just like rejected the gift to you, Cricola, because he's already immortals that he doesn't need the crocoon gift. Here is my Here is the other thing that I think, and
it you know, kind of details with mister Immortal. I do think that kroko exists, But I also think, like Warren Worthington and others, in a way that would seem insidious to the wider society, have infiltrated human culture. You know or you know or are not, have not revealed themselves to be mutants, but are around and are doing things and are some of them are powerbrokers in human society, and I think that, uh, mister Immortal maybe points the
way at that. I agree it's mutants being around, but have been kind of keeping it quiet for most of human history until recently when it's like, oh, powered people are around, maybe I can start being more obvious with the things that I'm doing.
No, mister Moore makes a lot of sense in that context, also because he's essentially living by what I like to call like Twilight rules, where he's basically because he's been alive for like a million years and he can never die. He's just immensely rich. So in its own way, especially in America and in like capitalism kind of culture, you have infiltrated the highest parts of society just simply by being incredibly wealthy. So that's exactly that kind of thing.
And also, as we know, if GLK and H didn't exist, these women and Sebastian probably would never have actually know that he was immortal and hadn't actually died. And if they had seen the video that we will get to, the Intelligencia video, they wouldn't have had a way to
get recompense. So I think that introducing this superhero law firm is a really good way of seeding exactly what you're talking about, where suddenly everyone's like, Okay, wait a minute, I had a weird experience with this person or that thing that I saw that one time, was that it was that it like that one time that I randomly don't remember something that happened when I got like men
in blacked and then suddenly my memories white. Like oh, they said that was like retrograde amnesia, but maybe that was actually like a mute and with mind control powers. So this is kind of huge in that way as well as just being very fun.
Yeah, because that that paranoia is is a thing that we see a lot in X Men comics where parents are like, oh my god, I think my child might be a mutant. I think my coworker might be and it and it creates this feeling of real fear in the general population. I want to I want to note that it's it's it's remarkable to me that one we got mister immoral and he's just presented just as himself with his powers, and no one at all has been like,
where did he get these? Where you're past the point in the MCU where yeah, where did they get the powers is really a question. They're just accepting that this guy can do this, and no one has thought to ask, well, how can how is he doing this?
That's my favorite thing about where we are now. It's almost like with that brilliant moment at the end of Miss Marvel that we all loved so much, which was you know, it's a mutation that has basically opened the doors now for us as the viewers to just say, oh, well they might be a mutant. Oh everyone has powers now, and it is giving a lot of leeway for the show is to just say, hey, superheroes exist. You know that you've been in this world for twenty five movies.
Now it's just happening. But yeah, I did find it, especially a power like being immortal, Yeah, is a pretty intense power to have.
And nobody he's not an as guardian elf. No, he's not a former super soldier, he was not you know, subject to a radioactive accident. He's just running around with these very intense and yeah, nobody's talking about.
Making a mallory just like so you can die, you can't die like do that like which one? Like, you know, it's very it's a very interesting time to be in the MCUs.
It's great. Yeah, okay, so so much. In that last kind of stinger scene where you know, Jen is having you know, the kind of the plate of frime at the end of the wedding, after the big fight with Titania, kind of bonding with this guy who seems, you know, pretty accepting and certainly maybe attracted to Jen, and they're they're sharing this plate of fries, and then we zoom out and it's clear that somebody is keeping track of Gen. We go to a futuristic lab where there is a
screen where we see someone named Hulk King capitalized in a very interesting way, certainly in a way that would lead us to speculate about hulk cling hulk ling? Is that what that means? Saying, okay, where are we with with Jen? We should note that this is exactly how mister Blue communicated with mister Green in h in the
Incredible Hulk movie starring Ed Norton. And then you know, we see the the bench needle that the wrecking crew attempted to stab Jen with, and then we see another needle being snapped onto a new syringe and it's early, but I'm gonna call we were right on this, the adamantium needle because the sound effect the sound effect listen, it might be vibradium, but the sound it was so distinct, and it led me to one in the comics, the only thing that can penetrate the Hulk skin is an
adamantium needle. We've seen it, seen it numerous times in the comics. And two, the sound it makes is very much it's evocative. It's evocative of Wolverine's claw.
Also, I would just say we were right. We can do a two part we were right.
One.
I also agree, I think it has to be adamantium needle. They're just throwing mutants around now. I don't see any issue. We've had multiple wolverine stick like Easter eggs at this point with stuff and magical but also as well, we were right. We knew they would make a new needle that would be made of some kind of super strong metal adamantium or vibranium. So I will be yeah, I
would say we can take aw we were right. And also if it's an adamantium needle, obviously that's so exciting because most people who are listening, I think will probably know Adamantium is the metal that covers Wolverine's bones and his claws in the X Men comics, and in that plays a large part in the in the X Men movies. So again we're moving towards that mutant space.
Okay, so let's talk about two things here in that scene. One Hulk King. Who is he? Okay, who is he or her? Who are they?
So? I think I think that you're very right that they want it. Again, if we're talking about evocative stuff, I think they want it to evoke hulk Ling. It looks the same. Also Hulk Link and hulk Ling is Scroll Royalty, you know, so he is technically a Hulk King. I also think so. The reason that we know is that another thing we need to talk about is the
way that it pops up. It is very evocative of a website that we just saw, which was called the Intelligentsia, which was kind of this MRA four chan esque website where a lot of dudes would just told me how much they hate Sheaholk and they want to kill Shee Hulk.
But that in itself is really important because in the comics, the Intelligentsia was this villain knowledge sharing group that ended up becoming a supervillain group, and they were the ones who created Red Hulk, which you find out in twenty ten's Hulk twenty three. They were the ones who convinced Thunderbolt Ross to take the Hulk serum and become Red Hulk. So there's also that aspect where it's like, we thought we're heading towards I think we're heading towards Red Hulk
slash Red she Hulk for sure. Yeah, yeah, And so like is what I think is really interesting is we thought Tim Blake Nelson the leader, was gonna be the one kind of the Machiavelli and guy behind the curtain. He could be he could see himself because the Hulk King. But I will also say he is a really good scientist. He could actually just be running that lab. And whoever is actually behind this, who is the Hulk King?
You know?
For all we know this is I'm gonna throw out a really out there one. Yeah, what if like in the comics, so what if Bruce has gone back to Saka, Jen cannot Jen cannot get in touch with him?
Right?
Yeah, Tim foyl hatting this one, right? What if Scar Hulk's son is already on Earth and is the one who is doing all of this because he hates his dad, which is a very canon comic book thing. And he is actually the one who's trying to find out about how Hulk blood works. He's the one who's trying to
find out who she Hulk is. There's all different things that could be coming into play here, and I kind of I'm very impressed by how they took what we thought was a pretty simple but with a lot of fun stuff, Like we had the Elliot Franklin theory, we
had a lot of different fun stuff. But I love that now they've turned it on its head and now there's like ah other people because Intelligency has so many Hulk villains in it too, so as well as like modoc Red, Ghost, Doctor Doom, like all different kinds of people. So there's just so much here that they're playing with that the whole King thing just kind of blew my mind because I'm like, I need to know. And also, isn't just one of these crazy Intelligency website guys who
just has a ton of money. I know one of the discs in our discord. A lot of people have been guessing that the guy who went on a date with who was like a real creep who then ended up at the office. Yeah, he might be the villain. And now we know that there's a whole king, super rich, wealthy like hate strong women, you know, so that would also be really interesting.
Chris producer Chris uh is raising a theory in the chat. Could Josh cute guy at the wedding who eat the fries with in that moment in that you know, as the secret camera wherever that's hidden, like zooms out and we see that she's being observed, Josh is there with her. Could Josh cute guy at the wedding end up being a fake out name and he's actually the whole king. I like that as well.
I think Chris is definitely onto something.
Because they introduced that guy in a way. He can't be just like another nice thing exactly, and he knows.
He goes in there with the exact specific attack of I don't just like sheehowk I like gen which publicly was just a huge thing in a lawsuit, And then it seems very unlikely to me that he would. He's got her in her gen form because he likes Jen. Yeah, and he so that means you can get her blood even without an adamantium needle. Potentially, but adamantium needle's a good choice just because you don't know how someone's human
skin could take on its hulk skin form. But then he's sitting right in the right place in front of the camera so that she can be seen. I think Josh is sadly at least intelligentsia.
Adjacent adjacent. Yeah, I'll say this, we I don't think it's the leader for the following reason. Just put a syringe in your own arm, right, Okay, so he's that you got the game blood? Is he being established? I'll just say that we have established that gens blood is super special and even in the context of gamma radiated blood, it allowed Bruce to heal his arm. It has different properties. That said, it feels like the leader would be focused elsewhere.
Maybe the Leader wants Gen's blood to cure himself because he's like deformed and kind of messed up by it. But also, how would he know that Gen's blood is
bad blood? I think I think with the intelligentsia, the whole king, I think that all leads to this idea of somebody creating a Red Hulk or a red Shea Holk, which we had long wondered about, and I will just say, would be a very cool way to reintroduce liv Tyler to the MCU, because Betty is Red she Holk in the comics originally, and I just think that would be so cool.
Do you think I agree with the jilted date as being an intelligencier person? But do you think there's any you think Modoc or any of the super ape or any of the rest are involved in this.
I think that they. I think they have long they have long talked about bringing Modoc to the MCU. I think he's going to be in the MCU. I don't think this is where, but I do think that knowing she Hulk, we could see some super weird characters like awesome Android and like other people who've been in the intelligentsia. Oh yeah, so Chris just mentioned that he Yeah, Modoc's confirmed in Quantumania. We've already seen some leaked mm HM
visuals of what potentially he could look like. But like, I think that knowing Sheeholt, they're gonna go for the weird now. Now, look, Modoc is very weird I'm not saying that, but Modoch is unbelievably complex character to bring to life. Yes, and I think that in Quantumania you probably can dedicate a couple of years to somebody just building Modoc and working out how he would look. You know, if you haven't seen him, he's like basically a giant floating head.
Producer Saul with a extremely tinfoil hat comes with I wonder if Josh's Amideas show.
Like, oh my god, I wish that was the case.
I don't think that that. I like where your head is at. But one, this feels a little bit low stakes for the the genius of Amidea's Chow. And two I think they probably cast youngerls.
What if if it was Amadeus Chow. What if hypothetically me and Chris are right but wrong, Like, instead of just being a part of the intelligencia, he's actually there to protect Jen because of his super genius. You know, I would I agree with you, though I think if you're going to do Amadeus, you're going to probably make
him like a super teen. But I do really like that idea, and I don't think it's that of the realm of possibility simply because we know that this is a place where they're basically introducing slash reintroducing a lot of the Hulk family.
I agreed, And I also, you know, to Chris's point, the monarch is confirmed for Quantumnia, it does. It feels a little bit like, you know, not to not to ruin the magic by peaking too far behind the curtain. But I imagine that one and part of the reason they're digging so deep into the crates is because whoever the Marvel lore keeper is at mcu is, you know, was like, oh no, you can't use that person because we're using them for this. Can we use modoc No,
Monoc's and Quantumanians we can't use them. Can we use you know, us Asian and I can't use you as Yeah, ZIGGI, I mean.
That's like, you know, he was there to he was pulling those deep cut places out, so you didn't have that crossover for sure.
So I feel like, you know, for all the implications, and there are many, I would imagine that it's there's a world where Marvel is having similar conversations where they're like, okay, they use this weird character. I wonder what all the implications that we could then generate stories off of from there.
I also think as well, the other thing that we know that the MCU loves to do. I mean, it's part of why we're here with our tim for hat theories and are we will writes and stuff. They love to seed stuff. So I'm sure that by introducing the intelligentsia, they knew people were going to make that connection to monoc And there is a world where we even hear someone fends, you know, the machine designed only for killing
or something like. There's I feel like there's a way that they can they can still have or they have someone just say you know, of course, and they send an email and the emails to light modoc, like they can do that fun stuff where they see it in without necessarily having to show like the giant floating head creature,
you know. So yeah, I just like, I this was such a fun episode, but like you said, it's the implications, like they're having fun, but they're also like vampires exist Wolverine, Like it's it's really fun stuff.
Okay, Adamantium versus Vibranium here is my take. And obviously you know there's also the possibility there could be some other weird super you know, some titanium alloy that they're like, okay, maybe this will you know that it's not necessarily adamantium, although again clearly they want us to think that. Here's why I think here's my case for it not being vibranium.
We stablished. While we have established that vibranium is a wonder metal that has a lot of really amazing properties, among them being extreme durability, the other thing that we've established with vibranium is that the number one thing about it that really makes it special is that it absorbs and releases kinetic energy. We see that with the Black
Panther suit. It's got this property of it can absorb all the damage and all the hits that are being directed towards it, and then it can release it as like a focused energy plast So it's got that property to it that is a very distinctly different Like you wouldn't necessarily need that for a needle. What you need for a needle that you want to pierce the hulk skin is just is it unbreakable? Will it bend? Is it?
Is it indestructible? Basically, and that is the key difference between these two wonder metals is that both are really really really strong. Viranium is almost indestructible, but adamantium, unless you bring it to its melting point, is basically in destruct yea, like you can't bring it there.
Is like there is like obviously times because it's comic books, where like I believe it was like Ultimate Hulk managed to break an adamantium needle or something. Yeah, but like in general, Adimantium's going through whatever they want it to go through. We've seen it with Wolverine, We've seen it. And also, look, they make these shows. These shows are made by people who love this stuff. They're made by people like zeb Wells and Zig who make the comics.
They know if you create, if you end an episode with a needle that looks really big and shiny and goes into a syringe with a kind of like click snick, they know that people are going to say, oh, that's
an adamantium needle. Now we also know that because of how this show has been and how funny they are and how much they kind of enjoy playing with expectations, it could literally next week they'll be like, oh, yeah, this is a this is a very strong needle called like adamantium, and there's something that they it's like this step before adamantium on like the But you know that it's just the reason it's fun is because we get
to guess. And also I will say, I think with everything else in this episode, I believe it being Adamantium is very very likely because, like I said, they just casually revealed that vampires just fully exist fully are real, and also this mutant vampires are running around. I think that Adamantium in that context could definitely be real and a thing.
Well, let's welcome She Hulk head writer Jessica Gow to the show now and ask her some questions potentially including whether or not that's adamantium, and is mister Immortal a mutant? And does that mean Kurkoha is not a thing right now? Questions I'm sure she will answer.
Definitely, Gonta give us all the answers.
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This week in the Hive Mind, where we bring on experts to discuss their work and more, X ray Vision is thrilled to welcome she holkhead writer Jessica Gow.
Hello, thanks for having me.
Oh, thanks so much for coming on. So like one of the questions we always ask, because this is the bread and butter of what we do and what we care about, like what's your origin story of comics? Like how did you find comics? What do you care about? What was it about comics that made you fall in love with them? Or do you not care about comics at all and just ended up on the nam Shiyusha.
I was a lifelong comic book reader. When I was a kid, I read mostly manga because I was born in China and I immigrated to America when I was young, and my relatives in China, you know, I was like a bookworm, and so they would always want to send me gifts, you know, because they missed me, or because somebody went to visit and you have to send.
A gift, you know.
And they would all because the one thing they knew about me.
Was that I loved reading.
They were they would constantly send me Chinese bootlegs of whatever was like the hot manga in at the time. And so I just had like stacks of bootleg comics that I that I read constantly, you know. And so it was a lot of like dragon Ball and like Grandma and U U Hockey Show, City Hunter Cati, you know, stuff like that, like whatever was hot in Japan and that the bootleggers felt was worth bootlegging.
That's what I got.
And then when I got more into when I was more, when I was a teenager, that's when I got into reading like more, you know, like American comics, and like my first job in high school was at the local com book store.
Oh that's so yeah.
But I was never, like, to be fair, honest, I was never huge on mainstream comics. Like I didn't read a lot of Marvel or DC. I mostly like the most mainstream I read was probably like Image and Vertigo comics. And then I and but I really got heavily into like the indie stuff, you know, like anything that like fanographics put out slave Liver graphics drawn and quarterly like that was like more my jam, you know.
So how did you get attached to Sheehook? What was the process, Like, what was your take on the character that got you the gig?
Well, they they knew me.
I mean I've told the story a few times now. Where she helped was the fourth time I pitched at Marvel. So it's the fourth project I pitched there, which means that, you know, I was rejected three times before I got home. But she was always my favorite character from Marvel Comics, and so I like all three other times that I got rejected, I would bring up she Hulk and be like, guys, if you do she Hulky, gotta you gotta call your girl. And then I would threatened Arson if they didn't, you know,
just so they knew I was serious. Yeah and yeah, And so when I went into pitch she Hulk, I mean, anytime I pitched TV, it always starts with character, you know, like you have to care about this main character to want to hang out with them a week after week. And for me, like you know, what I loved about she Hult from the comics was just how meta the burn run was. That was the run that made me fall in love with she Hulked and her break and the fourth Wall, Like how irreverent she was, how funny
she was. You know, she didn't take like being in comics too seriously. Like there was just this levity to it that I really found really refreshing, you know, and so especially since you know, like I think the most mainstream stuff I read in when I was a teenager was probably Batman comics, and that's always very dark and serious, you know, so like something like she Hulk is just it's so like the polar opposite and tone wise, and I just it was just.
Like a breath of fresh air.
So how I approached the character was, you know, I just felt like I could really relate to her.
You know, I thought about our similarities. You know, we're both women in our.
Thirties with careers, like very focused on work, and but also you know, had friends, had like you know, family that we talked to, unlike a lot of comic characters. But then I thought, like, you know, if this thing happened to me one day, I there was an accident and I got superpowers and I became a Hulk, and there were all these expectations that now I would have to be a superhero.
I'd be fucking furious.
Because I mean, if you look at the shirt I'm wearing, it says I'm tired, and that's how I feel like every day, and so I would be like, I'm too tired to add one more thing to my plate. And also like I didn't ask for this, like no, thank you.
You know, like if I was.
A lawyer and I'd gone through like law school and I'd rapped up six figures in student loans, like who's.
Gonna pay that?
They're not gonna forgive the debt just because I'm a superhero nowt Like I'm still on the hook to pay that off, you know, Like oh, I'm supposed to just like stop everything and but still have to deal with all the ramifications like just because it happened, like I would be you know what I mean, Like there's oh, yeah, there's so much messiness in the minute sho of what happens. Like yeah, there's the big concept of like, oh, you have powers and now you have to be a superhero.
But it's like, but let's look at all the detail, you know, like where are you gonna get.
Your health care from? Who's who's providing that? Like, yeah, how do you get paid? Like how do you what's your retirement place? Girl? Like that's all stuff we have to think about. Yeah.
I actually wrote an article off the falcon in the Winter Esolgia, the episode where Sam Wilson said that the Avengers didn't get paid and that Tony didn't pay them, and I was like, this has broken my breath on this side of my brain. It's like, how do they live, how do they have insurance? How do they do anything?
You know?
And so something I'm interested about because that kind of aspect of Minutia and the slice of life aspect of the show is something that we love so much. Do you feel like your love of like indie comics stuff like you mentioned fantographics, I'm guessing like Love and Rockets, stuff like that. That's like one of my favorite comics.
Do you feel like you brought those storytelling sensibilities to Shee Hulk as well by kind of looking more at like the holistic life of the character, like indie comics sometimes do, rather than just that big concept superhero stuff.
Yeah, definitely, because you know, I didn't really approach this following a traditional superhero formula. You know, it was definitely more about like the tone was a lot more important, you know, and like it's not a plot heavy show.
It's an episode.
It's a very episodic show, and it's very much about the life of life, you know, and it really is. It's exactly like you said, it's this like kind of holistic, well rounded look of like what is the totality of this person's life.
One thing that is really resonating with us as comic book nerds is just how this is the most comic
book nerd show from Marvel. Yeah, it really is. Like the way it just present, you know, the way mister Immortals shows up and he's just been around, he's just been around doing his mister Immortal thing in the world, and it's taken as part of the texture of this space, and that is that's part of the excitement of reading comics when I was a kid, to me is just having a window open into this entire, vibrant world where people are running around doing things, going to the gym,
going shopping, using their powers for good and ill. How much of that was really was what you were going for, where you're going to like, we're gonna pull from all these different things, and we're not even going to be like, how did mister Mortal get his powers? Forget about it, We're just going to present it's running around.
Yeah, I mean, you know, it just it felt like we're over a decade into the MCU, like and you know, every other movie introduces a new character, a new superhero, somebody with powers, you know, and like they're they're in the double digits now, you know, so people in their world have been living with this for years and years and years, so it's no longer like a shock you know, to the system of like that people with superpowers exist.
These people exist, you know, and not every single person is going to make the news and become an Avenger. There are you know, people like mister Immortal who are like, oh, I'm only going to use this for my personal life, and.
There's no contribution to society, you know, like there's.
Just there's just people around who have these powers. And you know, we really wanted to focus on the lower level stuff, not the global save the universe kind of thing. We wanted to focus on like the everyday street level people who aren't making the news and are just kind of existing.
Yeah, and how fun was it as a process to kind of get to go through and pick you know, we get mister Remore here, we get a reference to Baroness Blood. So I'm like, now, definitely the vampires exist in the MCU. That is my head canon. But like, how fun was it in the room? So you know, we talked to Zig and he was talking about, you know,
pulling out names like the Wrecking Crew and stuff. So how far is it to kind of get to dig in and find those characters who fit this low ground level superhero world that you were building.
It's it's really fun.
And so our writer's room, the makeup of the writer's room was fifty percent like Marvel super Nerds and like Zig and like zeb Wells and you know, Jackie Gales and like and then the other half were just comedy writers who were like, yeah, I have never touched the comic book and I don't really need to unless I'm
being paid to do it, you know. But it's a but I like, we needed that balance, you know, because we can't be completely inside baseball when it comes to comics, like because this is still a sitcom, you know, first and foremost, So it was nice to have that mix of people to kind of balance out like what is going to be funny, you know, but what's also going
to be true to the comics. And so it was really nice to have half the room be able to like start pulling from the comics, like you know, like like Zig and Zeb and everybody would they already had like their their kind of mental list of characters they've always wanted to And our philosophy was always like the lower level, like the C level, D level, like give us the low rent guys, because then you have the most.
Freedom, you know for sure. Yeah.
Well also like a, you have the most like highest probability that it would be available that whens like you know, creating like that Marvel isn't already doing some sort of like trilogy about them. But two also like you have more freedom because they're not this like Precious Revere like have like a crazy fandom character. They're characters that people are like, oh, I recognize them, that's funny that they're using them, you know, or characters where they're like I
don't even know where they pulled that from. And then you can really like kind of play around with them and come up with like funny stuff for them. So, you know, we pull like characters that we just thought would be funny, and then the whole room would kind of go to work on coming up with, like what's a funny reason they would be in legal trouble? Like what is specific to this character that would require a lawyer?
And and that's where we went from there. And that's really really fun to pitch, you know, because at the end of the day, you're just they're characters. Whether or not they're comp of characters or sick on characters, they're just characters that you're coming up with very like character specific stories for.
This seems very obvious to me, but I was wondering if you might spell it out for our audience. It seems what is it that makes comedy writers like yourself, Jeff love no zeb So the right person to develop and adapt these stories for TV for film?
I think it's that well, I think it is.
What I loved about Marvel movies was that they're all very like even the serious ones, there is the sense of joy, you know, there is the sense of like of this love for this.
Medium, and like, you.
Know, if you could be very reductive and say like, oh, it's like for kids or whatever, but but I think being able to see.
The way that like comics have these like strong themes and can tell these like very.
Like metaphor lateen story, you know, and kind of be a reflection of of ourt of the times and.
Of people.
Being able to like take that seriously but also balance that with like, okay, but it's still you know, a person with superpowers or some guy who decided to dress up like a.
Frog, you know, Like I to kind of balance that and like treat it like.
With the right level of seriousness. Like these characters are taking their lives seriously, you know, so we respect that, but we also understand that it's inherently a little silly and lighthearted, you know. And also the stakes on our show are very low. It's not it's not like half of humanity is going to die. It's like, well, is this guy gonna have to pay like pay out a law a settlement?
You know?
H yeah, in that way. Actually, it kind of seems wild that there hasn't been like a superhero sitcom like this seems like the perfect balance. So could you talk a little bit about that choice and going obviously it makes so much sense for shee holp. But why was that? How did you know that was the right pitch?
Well, I come from writing for TV comedy, so so I was always going to do comedy. I just I don't write dramas, you know, so it's always gonna be a comedy. But I think like she Hulk, of all characters, is like so, I mean, the most iconic she Hulk runs are so like fun and light, you know, and funny.
So I think like it's that's just what's true to the character.
Yeah, okay, here we go. We're gonna we're gonna hit you now with the questions that we're pretty sure you can't answer, but we're gonna try.
Let's see how good my perker face.
Is adamantium needle at the end.
Yes, now I'm saying, yes, it is.
That an adamantium needle. Uh No, okay, wow, oh interesting. Uh.
We're not talking about adamantium on the show at all.
There's no talking about it.
But you know, here's it. It's a guess we here is why we guess that because of the Hulk's history. Uh with Adamanteta, you know, it's always the only solution to be like, how do we turn his blood to Hulk back at or get his blood or turn him back into Banner. We got to hit him. What's the only thing that could pierce the skin is an adam antium needle and it made it made a very satisfying snack dish sound, which is why we thought that.
Well, that's good. I mean, it's rare to get a conclusive answer, so I'm very excited about that. I'm okay, So Baroness Blood aka mister Immortal's wife potentially potentially, I mean, so Baroness Cromwell is his ex wife? Is that? Does that mean? Was he married to a vampire? I feel like it would make sense because he's immortal. But was that or was that just like a fun name poll.
That was just a fun name talk.
We don't know which we don't know who this person is that he was married to.
Okay, Obviously you've had a lot of fun over this season with like names that are one letter off from names that we recognize.
Donnie Blaze.
Donny Blaze, for instance, is a fantastic icon. And then at the end of this episode, you know, when we see that that secret lab where they're working to collect gens blood, we see it a chat on a screen, a computer message from someone named Hulk King, which seems like very specifically one letter off from Hulk Hulkling. Is that another Donny Blaze, Johnny Blaze Hulk King hulk Ling? Is that another one of those Donny Blaze situations?
What I will say is you have to think about the world of the show as this is a world where people are aware of all these kind of superheroes.
Beings, villains, aliens.
Everyone's aware that these types of people exist, you know, so you have to think, like there are people in this world who are like our world fans, like you know, people who are into like fan fiction, people who are modeling themselves after these people. You know, people who know like the name Hulk and are you know, coming up with like coming up with just a screen name that is a reflection of what.
They're interested in and who they're interested in.
Okay, this is less of a this is less of a spoiler question, but links to the hul King women. Could you talk a little bit about introducing the intelligence here is this kind of like MRA website and how that plays into how well you guys kind of preemptively joke about what you knew the response to the show would be.
Yeah, I mean I think it just we I mean, we had our writers room in twenty We started our writers room in twenty nineteen. That's how long ago we, you know, we started writing this show. So I mean it truly preempts a lot of the stuff because we knew.
I mean, I think it just goes to.
Show how completely unoriginal and tired and boring.
Actually, guys are you know that three years.
Ago we could predict like exactly what they weren't gonna say, like fucking get a new song man. And it's just I mean, it's it's funny, but it's also sady that like it's so accurate.
And also that it is so common and so.
Predictable at that we could this accurately like just pull it out, you know, because it's not it's not really it is specific to the show, but it also isn't like that type of like like hate and like stupidity is not specific to this show. Only you know, it's so prevalent that that's why we were able to just
know exactly, you know. So it was very funny when the show premiered seeing all the responses where I was like, you just wait till the third episode comes back, because because the little troll inside of me was also giggling.
And baby, well, Jessica, this has been a fantastic conversation. Thank you so much for joining us, Thanks for having me.
This is great.
That was such a joy. Thank you.
Folks were stepping out of the air lock onto the streets of Ferrick's beautiful company town Ferrix for the first three episodes of and Or, written by Tony Gilroy, directed by Toby Haynes. Again, we just want to touch on this these episodes because we want to give everybody time to process them and to really digest them, and then we're gonna be talking about it regularly as the series progresses. But first off, Rosie, what are your thoughts?
So, I thought it is very beautiful. I'm happy to I love to see die go back. You know, we're big fans of Rogue One on this show.
Huge fans, such huge fans of Rogue One.
So yeah, I love the landscape. I love that it's not a nostalgia fueled show. I think like we've all talked about this. People in the discord have been talking about this. This is a show that is almost has a similarity to Lord of the Rings in that the first episode maybe a little bit homework heavy, a little bit introductory heavy, but you get those three episodes so by the end you've really kind of dived in. So yeah,
I thought it was like a good show. I'm a big fan of Tony Gilroy, who they bring in to save everything, so I'm really happy to see him getting to have this space to do this. I do have some moments that like bumped me though, so that's how I'm excited to talk to you about it.
So I too, I think it looks absolutely like jaw dropping stunning. Actually, like the volume is doing incredible or clearly I think they shot on location somewhere. It looks amazing. I you know, Rogue One is probably my favorite Star Wars movie, and I think the vibe of Rogue One, which is which kind of recontextualized the part of the impact of the original Star Wars as a as a flipped allegory to the Vietnam War, you know, in which you know, scrappy rebels take on this superpower with weapons
of mass destruction and actually defeat it. Rogue One took that and brought it into the twenty first century with an allegory that is senttually says that acknowledged the power of the kind of like freedom fighter narrative. Yeah you had you had these You had these rebels fighting to defend a holy city with rare natural resources that were
being exploited by a superpower. You know, it's like this, Uh, it's the grievances of the Middle East with regards to the United States as empire, but uh mixed up and put back uh, you know, and and digested back and given back to us as a Star Wars story. I think that was part of like what really gave it its power. And I think and Or is similarly continuing to do that same thing, which is taking really really provocative ideas and saying, Okay, at what level does violent
resistance to corporate power become morally acceptable? At what point does violent resistance to the security state become, while clearly illegal, morally acceptable. At what point does the destruction of the environment warrant a morally potentially violent response.
Uh?
And those ideas are really really, really just very very interesting and kind of like radical to explore in the contexts right now. And I think that part of it has me absolutely hooked. Here is where is the thing that bumps me as well? I do bump on certain things. One and this is all with the caveat that we need more contacts that I need to see where this is going.
You know, and is twelve episodes long, so we're literally a core of the way through the show. There is a lot that we can still discover, but we both definitely got caught on a couple of the same things.
The kind of like reframing of and then a story about indigenous people fighting against a technological colonial foe made me feel a little bit weird that being Diego's backstory, just not weird in that the idea of doing it, but the way they presented it makes me maybe like tad uneasy if I don't know where it's going at
this point, I'm like, it's definitely something. I'm like, hmm, I wonder where this is going, because this is either like again another super super radical theme in detail in the context of a Star Wars show, or maybe a little bit of a miss.
Yeah, I totally agree. I feel like I love to see We're living in an age right now where there's finally we're getting a lot of really brilliant like indigenous storytelling in a mainstream, accessible space. The storytelling has always been there, but now it's getting a platform. Whether it's like you know, Reservation Dogs, Blood Quantum like one of my favorite movies from the last few years, there's a lot of great stuff being made saying that, I too wonder.
I love the notion of an indigenous exploring an indigenous culture in Star Wars. That's incredible. It fits with me too. I personally, my first feeling about it was like this could have been the prequel to Just See, so we could have spent time there and got to know them, and it wasn't so much of just kind of flashback to trauma, which is a lot of what we're getting
right now. So I'm I'm interested in that. You know what I feel like in a post Wakandan world, Let's say I think at fantasy and sci fi and ideas of indigenous populations in sci fi and fantasy, I feel like I want to see where they're going with this idea of like nature versus technology, because I feel like in the Star Wars world, that indigenous culture could have been like a a very highly it could have been represented differently in a way that embraces both nature and
sci fi. That would have felt maybe a little bit less simplistic.
Really, the main thing for me is the decision to not have us understand what they are saying.
Yes, that's the biggest.
It felt like an unnecessary othering to you to like, you know, for lack of a better, uh, you know, more subtle phrase of a people that doesn't really occur in Star Wars usually. Usually it's like, especially if this is like the main character, you want us to empathize and understand what a particular ethnicity or a people, or a race, or an alien group or or androids are saying.
And you want to And I guess you could say, well, they don't subtitle the droids, but people translate what they're saying by telling me they translate it right back.
I will also say it's very different than say, I remember, you know, when West Side Story came out, the Steven Spielberg one, there's a lot of unsubtitled Spanish in that, and and I thought that that's actually really interesting and cool because you're basically allowing Spanish speakers to experience part of the film that non Spanish speakers can't, and that is an interesting subversion of how English speaking is usually non subtitled. But this is a I just double checked
because I wanted to be sure. But this is a made up language. It's Canari, So I don't in that way understand why that does.
I want to see where it's going. And then the other thing, because again I think the idea, again, as you said, presenting an indigenous people through the lens of Star Wars and exploring their culture, I think is there's nothing inherently weird or wrong about that. In fact, that's
fascinating and an idea I'd love to dive into. I also think it's really fascinating and radical to explore the idea of what an indigenous people could do to defend themselves that would be morally right considering the encroachment on their spaces, which is clearly an idea that this show
is exploring. When when young and Or comes to the edge of that great mining pit and sees what's being done to his planet, there's an anger and a defiance that flashes in his eyes and it's the same anger and defiance that flashes in his eyes as an older
man throughout the episodes that we see. And I think it draws a through line there of this idea of how much And he says, you know, no one would expect a person like me to be the one who gets paraphrasing now the thing he says in the trailer in other places, But I think that there's that through line there of how much does the does people have to put up with before it's okay for them to fight back? And I think that's clearly an idea that
this show is presenting. And it's a really interesting idea that said.
I just want to jump on that just quick because I know the next thing I totally agree with you. I totally agree with you. I just the other thing that kind of gets to me a little bit about it, yeah, is like I love that because I love radical ideas of struggle. The sad thing is in this case is like,
wouldn't it have been? I know it doesn't work because we have to have and Cassie and have some kind of loss, but like, didn't we imagine a world where and indigenous people fought back in like one because it's a utopian Star Wars style space where you're imagining it. Also, like the other thing that I find interesting in the context, and like we said, I'm very interested to see where it goes because this could all be very intentional and be kind of expanded on or explored or excavated as
we go through. But also, like you know, who never worried at any point about where the killing people was right in Star Wars, Like every white person who's ever in Star Wars who just blows stuff up and kills people and is seen as a hero. So I just I wonder I want to see that moral I want to know why the moral weight is so heavy on Cassian because the things that he is fighting against are are arguably so much more obviously deserving of rebellion or revolution.
But again, that could definitely be something that we see expanded on as the show goes forward. There are a lot of points here where if these moments that we're talking about and are about to talk about another one are intentional and get explored and extrapolated on, and that could be a really really radical space in the Star Wars universe, or like you know, you were saying, if not then it could be there's a chance that could end up being like a bit of a missed opportunity.
Yeah, and so I think the thing that bumped me really the hardest is at the end of the and again, this could be really interesting and I'm holding out. I can't wait to see more, to see how this, you know, reframes the context. Potentially Marva, who you know, has followed this ship that crashed on Knari, is scavenging whatever kind of tech and different stuff that they have, and they
want to get out before the republic answers. And they come across this young indigenous person who is Cassie and or young Cassian and or doesn't have that name yet, of course, and they're concerned that, you know, the Republic's going to show up and everybody's going to be potentially facing you know, real danger that could end up with the extinction of this tribe. I guess is with their concern, and so Marva kidnaps, you know, like let's just say what it is, kidnaps Cassian and takes him away on
her spaceship. And so my question is this is are we framing that as this like unambiguously good rescue or is there necessary, in my mind necessary ambiguity to this action, Because while I don't doubt that Marva thinks I'm saving this young man's life, what is functionally happening is you are kidnapping him, making them away from his tribe, from his people, from his culture, from his entire world because you're concerned that he's in danger and that may or
may not be true. But also like, that's not your role.
Yeah, and the way that you just framed that, that's not your responsibility, I think it's very clear fingers crossed.
That seems to be a even just in the way you frame it, the way you speak, right, it seems like the right route to go is to use that as an analogous conversation about the times that that has happened in real life, but kidnapping of Indigenous children, of children from the global community, the global majority, and seeing and having that as like we're doing something good and then we know that that is obviously historically something that has become very horrific and just a way of exploiting
children and harming children. So it feels to me like I don't think Star Wars is going to be like, oh, Marv is you know, an evil person. But I do think that could definitely be that should be adept and a conversation between Marva and between Cassian about the realities of what she did and how that shifted the the scope of his life and the way that his life turned out.
Yeah, because it's definitely you know, again, he may very well be in danger. You know, we're seeing aside through their eyes, through Marv's eyes, of the Republic that is, you know, less good than we're probably used to, and certainly more exploitive of cultures and planets than aren't technologically advanced or part of the Republic large. But again, she just like snatches them up without any kind of just this would this be okay, who are your people? Do
you have family here? Who is your family here? And kidnaps them from what is essentially a utopian planet. I mean, this is another tripe. This is an age old trope, right of the of the the people who are less technologically advanced live in this more egalitarian, just perfect society.
Yeah, like the peaceful And I that's another thing where I wonder if there was a technojungle twist or some kind of exploration that could have maybe potentially or might still happen. We've only seen certain parts. It's been in flashbacks, so we might learn that there is more to it. But like you said, that segment to me definitely had
the feeling of that age old trope. It didn't necessarily feel like it was adding anything to because let's be real, I saw, like a lot of people have said this, but like, how many indigenous cultures have we seen destroyed in Star Wars? So many?
Is that many? It's not the first one.
It's not the first one, And it's like so like, yes that my ewoks, Like, is is that necessarily like a new story that needs to be told in the Stars universe? Hopefully as Cassian because this is a very slow burned show as well, So hopefully as it moves forward, we're going to get to see that that conversation change. But I would like to know about not subtitling the Canari. The more I think about it, the more I'm like, is is there is that going to change? Is that?
I think on the on our version there was no captions, but I think on the final version it says speaking Canari.
Heure's the other thing that I think makes it an interesting choice. To me, these are flashbacks. How are we getting here right? We're getting the presentation is these are Cassian's reminiscences, and and by choice, they are not allowing us that perspective that he has where he understands what these people are saying. They're not letting us in there. So even you know, from that perspective of a storytelling choice of a flashback, from the perspective of a character,
it's it's a little puzzling to me. That's I think really a great people might listen to this conversation and be like they didn't like it. I actually love that like and here, and the fact that we are able to have these really like these big conversations about big ideas through the context of Star Wars is at a point one why I think this is certainly the most interesting to discuss right now in terms of like ideas and themes and ideas about morality and ideas about like
you know, about struggle period. Having those conversations through this show it is really fascinating because again, this is a show that is straight up like okay if it it presents this idea to you and says that this is acceptable if the powers of policing fuse with corporate interest sounds familiar. It is it is okay to resist that violently.
That's a kind of radical idea to put forward. And it's putting forward and putting it forward in the context of a Star Wars show, and I think that's a that's like pretty amazing.
Yeah, And also as well, I think that something that you bring up that's really great. There is how this carries on the tradition of Star Wars as like a radical analogy install Wars, like, look, we know what the empire is based on. In Star Wars, it's based on Nazis. It's a response to fascistic dictatorships are not afraid to kill and exploit. And the story there was you need to stand up against those. Those must be stopped and it doesn't matter if there's only one of you who
is standing up. You can make a difference because you will find other people. So now you know that movie came out in the late seventies, the original Star Wars, Like now in twenty twenty two, to have a show that's like, by the way, if the police is this the Nazis, Yeah, and also saying like we're going to make it more specific. If the police and evil corporations are destroying your life and your livelihood and your towns, it's actually okay to not be okay with that and
to want to resist it. That is a very cool reconsideration and updating and making the message far more specific than just like the real bad guy.
And I love. I mean there's a real class struggle aspect to this too, like the fact that we don't have royalty royalty lords, you know, sith lords like running
around making the choices. This is the people who are closer to the earth, who are working the way you know, Luthen and Cassie and have that conversation, you know, when they're meaning for the first time potentially and I have the handoff of the device of the of the navigation system and they kind of in a roundabout way start talking about the empire, and Lutheran's like, yeah, they're they're arrogant, aren't they, Like they don't understand how mad we are
at them. Yeah, they they just they're fat and happy and they and they're just using their power to push everyone around, Like they don't understand like what they're doing, they don't understand the anger they're engendering. That was a that felt like, I really, that's an amazing thing to watch happen, To watch this like rebellion start to coalesce, not at the highest levels but the grassroots. Yeah, anger at the empire that actually the leadership then harnessed in order to fight their war.
It's what makes Rogue one so special is you literally watch a group of marginalized people, predominantly people of color die in order to spark the rebellion in a very literal sense where they need. Without them, you would never have the blueprints that allowed the rest of the Star
Wars franchise to happen. So everybody dies, all these people of color die, these people from all over the planet, from all different places, all over the galaxy, and then at the end, Princess Leia of Space Royal has the blueprints. You know. That's what's so radical about roguan is like who dies so that the people in charge can fight the war and win the war?
Right?
And that's why I think is very interesting with Cassian is like we're coming at it from this viewpoint of like we want this to be the best version of this story that makes the most of the space that it's created because Rogue one really was this really radical space, and it's kind of it's very interesting to see that explored here, especially the notion of a of a corporate town, you know, something a business town, which is something that you know, we see in R Again, it's very relevant
in twenty twenty two.
There's also I mean, they gave Cassian a real kind of like con Solo when he shoots those two PM employees, there's a look that flashes across his face and it's definitely not regret that he just killed two people. It's fuck, now I gotta deal with this, Yeah, you know, and.
That is a.
I love that they gave him that kind of characteristic. That's the kind of character we're dealing with. Yeah, Han Solo never Han Solo pulled the trigger on Grito. Oh yeah no never first, never thought about it again.
Also, yeah, he just did that because he owed him some money too, Like it wasn't even a matter of survival. Yes, So okay, So something I found really interesting as well, Like in that context, Like the one thing that really hooked me was they do that great thing, as so many storytellers do, where there's a moment that everything hinges on and in this it is the PM, you know, the kind of head of PM. There's a young guy, Cyril Khan. Again, I'll be interested to see where they
go with that. I feel like he was queer coded and he is a villain, so you know, we'll see where that leads. But what I found was really interesting is his boss, who is obviously corrupt and is in this way, he was just like, just let it go, man. They weren't meant to be there. They got in the wrong fight with the wrong person, and I was like,
wow that. I just thought that was such an interesting moment where there's a different version of this story where they never look for Cassie and it never leads down that way. And but there's this one villainous guy who, for some reason that we're still kind of waiting to find out, has this fervent hatred of what happens and needs to solve the crime, you know, And I'm interested
to see where that goes. But I really thought that was one of the most interesting choices was when the kind of corrupt boss of PM was or the security kind of corpos was like, you know what, they're in the wrong place at the wrong time, Like sorry, to those men like you shouldn't. I thought that was a really interesting character point that feels much again, much more grounded in reality than this idea of the well put together empire who will take down anyone who dares to
question them. This is real people in the beginnings of what kind of working in the groundwork, this depressing grunt work of this kind of fascistic empire is very interesting.
Yeah, this is a show that I'm super excited about continuing to talk about because the ideas here are just so so huge. Big thank you to Jessica Goal for joining us, and of course a big thank you for Rosie Night for co hosting X ray Vision Today. Rosie more plugs, what have you two plug?
You can find me Rosie Marx on Instagram and letterbox. That's also in the show notes. You can also find my articles and stuff like that in the show notes. I will hopefully I have some more exciting comic book news coming soon, and obviously you can always hear me here with you.
Catch the next episode on September thirtieth, and subscribe to the show on YouTube. Please follow us on at XRV pod on Twitter, and don't forget in the show notes is our link to the discord. Check out the discord. Come hang out with us, Come hang out with the community. Lots of friendly, generous and really smart people there. Rosie and I are active there all the time. Don't forget Send your House to the Dragon questions to ask Theemaster
at gmail dot com. And if you want to hear our full conversation this week on House of the Dragon and Rings a Power check out. The first episode should be in your feed, which we have already released. If you're listening to this one, that one is out as well. We want your five star reviews. Give us those five star ratings on your podcast platform of choice. Here's a great one from smirtalk. Jason Concepcian and Rosie Night are
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Thank you.
X ray Vision is a Crooked Media production of the show is produced by Chris Lord and Saul Rubin. The show is executive produced by myself and Sandy Garhard are editing and sound Designers by Vascillis Fatopoulos, Dilon Villanueva and Matt De Group provide video production support. Alex Rellaford handle social media. Thank you Brian Vasquez for theme music. See you next time, Everybody,