Warning, Today's episode contains lots of spoilers for thirty year old episodes of Batman the Animated series Dunt dunt d which is not.
A big deal.
Truthfully, not a big deal.
You can just listen to this and then go watch the episodes. It's not gonna ruin your enjoyment. It's gonna be you.
Hello. My name is Jasoncepcion and I'm Rosie Knight, and welcome back to X Revision, the podcast where we dive deep into your favorite shows, movies, comics, and pop culture with me. iHeart podcast. Will We'll bring you two episodes a week every Tuesday and Thursday.
This is a very special episode. We're not gonna teach you a PSA lesson, but it is the first episode all Animation Month, and we're going to be celebrating Batman the Animated Series to kick it off, and in the back matter, we are going to be talking to some of our favorite Batman fans about the legacy and lasting impact of Batman the Animated series.
First the airlock. All right, folks, were stepping out of the airlock to talk about our top five personal top five episodes of Batman the Animated series. Rosie, do you want to talk about your criteria? I love your list.
Okay, so my criteria. I went for a mix of the ones that I honestly do think stand out as this is why this show is so fantastic, Like especially the first one that I'll talk about after your first pick. I think that's one of the ones where you can show it to someone and they'll go, oh, this is not why I expected from an animated series. This is more, this is deeper, this is more emotional, this is more
brilliantly written. But also some of them are I just I did Pepper in a few there, and I think this speaks to the quality of the show that are just the ones that I go back to or the ones that I so deeply remember watching for the first time. I have one on there that I watch every year at Christmas. I put it in as my Christmas watching.
So yeah, it was.
Kind of a mix of personal things that I like and also like what I think are some of the best examples of why the show is so special. But also I do think it speaks to the quality of the show that really anyone's favorite episodes are probably some of the best episodes because they're just all so good. What was your criteria?
My criteria was Landmark episodes that significantly influenced the comic cannon. So those are easy, right, There's several of them, those episodes that contained interesting like meta commentary on fandom, on the characters, on the fans relationship to the characters that exists, like on top of what is you know, always really
fun and engaging Batman or Batman Rogues Gallery story. And there's so much of that, whether it's like interesting casting choices, little easter eggs in there, there's a bunch of those episodes to choose from. And the other thing is there's really I guess like people would say that a Batman in the Basement is like the worst episode of Batman Animated series. I think I think Bruce tim came out and said that they really like they missed with that one,
and he's unhappy with it. I think he might have said that he's like never seen it ever since it came out. But it's really not there's it's that bad. There's there's there's no truly awful episode of Batman the animated series. The batting average is so high, and so there's really a lot to pick from, and so I really just tried to pick for stuff that I felt like had a lasting impact. And also I like the Joker, so I picked multiple Joker. Yeah episodes. Shall we get started?
Yes, your first episode, I want to go on for one. Well, let's go one for one, and your first one not a Joker episode, So start now.
A Joker episode. Heart of Ice.
Oh ten out of ten.
Mark Bernardin talked about why it's great, and it is great. You know, mister Freeze, we learn his backstory. He was a scientist doing experiments and his wife was the subject inside this cryo freeze chamber, and sadly, this like middle management executive named Boyle comes in and makes like a command decision in the middle of this experiment, and that causes mister Freese's wife to pass away inside the cry damper.
And he develops this entire supervillain persona to seek revent And there's this melancholy sadness to the episode that has affected the way mister Freeze has been depicted, you know later on, like in comics and in movies, and it's just a wonderful episode.
Yeah, they literally adapt this in Batman and Robin like this is what mister Freeze onnos watcheneggis mister freeze backstory is in the movie. We also get this kind of recognition of like Batman understanding where mister Freeze comes from in this episode too, where he's kind of at the end he's like sympathetically watching him as he kind of cries that he hasn't been able to avenge his wife. Also the Nora Inner snow globe that becomes like a huge part of his story, that becomes the you know
that's in Batman and Robin that's in the comics. This is basically a complete reimagining of mister Freeze, you know, his actual origin story that then went on to like you say, completely changed, yes, everything comics, movies, whatever you're watching. And it's also set off like a four movie or four episode one movie arc in the animed stuff that's just about Victor Freeze, which I think is really cool.
It's really cool. It's such a big swing, particularly early in the in a in the run of Batman the Enemy, I think it's like the fourth episode to take like this like massive swing like this, Yeah, it's and it and it showed you how actually deep this show could be because on the one level, it's just like a fun, very consumable little Batman's story, but on it's got all these other levels to it. The emotional level, the fact that it's kind of like softly retconning a like giving
you an alternate take of a character. Uh, there's the fact that, like aesthetically, there's all this kind of cool tones blues and like mules and stuff that have worked into it to really enhance the theme. It's just great.
Yeah. Also won a Daytime Emmy Award for Outstanding Writing in an Animated Program. So really, like you said, big swings. Also, I will say to those listening out there who love to have the the intricate details. Batman Animated Series has a weird situation when it comes to episodes because there were multiple episode orders. Yes, so if we say episode that might be a different running order. I think this was episode four. I also think in some running orders
it was episode fourteen. It was shown differently on different channels, so there may be some that's it.
You bring up a good point because this was also the period of time where if you missed an episode of Batman series, then you missed it.
Good luck, good one you would hear.
About it and then maybe years later, you know when it was when the run was like released at Blockbuster or something, you might be able to watch it, but you would just not.
No.
Yeah, because they then they did the new Batman animated stories, but then they compile it, it was just, yeah, run order can be a mess.
It's also really interesting because this has aired on so many different networks, and apparently when it aired on toon Disney, they actually removed two lines where Batman says, my god, they thought that was too expletative, and then mister Freezer's line, I'd kill for that, So there were also different versions. Obviously now I'd killed for that. Yeah, Michael Ansara, what a performance, just such a such a that's such a
brilliant episode. I'm so glad you picked it. I mean I literally read an anthology issue of that DC does every year they do these fun like Nuclear Winter or like they have different names, and I read a great anthology issue that I believe was and it had a
Bruce tim story in it. There was about mister Freeze and he, you know, creating all this snow and it's stopping people from being able to get their Christmas presents, but he allowed Robin to go and get the Christmas present that he wanted for Batman, and the real reason he made it snow is because he's thinking of his wife. So even like twenty thirty years later, it's still influencing how we see him as more of a tragic figure rather than just another wacky kind of silver age rogue.
Yeah, there's something else too in this episode and a lot of the other episodes that I picked that I kind of which would wish had influenced the depictions of Batman more, which is he is such a he's you know, he's trying to bring mister Freese to justice. He also brings a boil to justice. That said, while he's this tough protagonist, he's also like very empathic towards Miss Oh. Yeah,
he's he's deeply affected by mister Freeze's backstory. And there's that there's a gentleness to the Batman, the animated series Batman that I wish would carry away some of the other stuff.
There's something there's a softness to him that's.
Not just like a usful like I must bring all Riddle to justice, you know, like there's something there's a deeper well of emotion there with him.
And also he is softer as both Bruce and Batman in this series, which I like he and you get. I think that's why you get such brilliant relationships. And also just like unbelievable casting. I mean Mark Hamier obviously known best for being the Joker, but he's Ferris Boyle in that episode, like it's a classic animated thing. Michael ansaras mister Freeze who's so fantastic, Marie Devon as Summer Gleeson.
They just have really great casting. Like my next pick has one of my all time favorite actresses in and I always forget until I look up the show that she's one other people. Okay, so my first pick is on a similar vibe to yours. This is one that emotionally kind of guts me every time I watch it. It's called per Chance to Dream. It's written by Joe R. Lansdale who did the tell of play Laren Bright. Michael
Reeves did the story directed by boy Curt Quinn. It has Adrian Barbo as catwoman Selena Kyle, which I.
Love one of the best the B movie icon.
Swamp thing the Fog. Just like so many movies. Yeah, I love her so much and in a very interesting I think this is such a classic smart thing you can do in animation. She voices Martha, and she voices Catwoman, and I think there's likely yes. But also Roddy McDowell is the Mad Hair, Diana Molders doctor Leslie Tompkins. So I think the fact that they have these characters like Leslie Tompkins is a key Batman character, but we've never really seen her explore in the movies. Mad Hair, that's
such a random character. You're probably never going to get to see him in the movies, but animated series gives this space. And the best thing about this episode is it's just absolutely gutting and it's kind of a treatise on grief and how if we were really able to get what we wanted, would we actually sacrifice everything to keep it. So basically, Bruce wakes up in a world where.
It's going through it. Yeah, he is going through.
In this episode, like his parents are alive, someone else's Batman, like Alfred. There's no batcave. Alfred doesn't like. He basically wakes up and his life is perfect, but he remembers everything from the day before when his life was not idyllic like this, And obviously the name is taken from like the soliloquy from Shakespeare's Hamler, and the whole episode is him kind of trying to work out what's going on,
why is he here? He starts to see things in the news, and he starts to realize, well, this isn't real life, but everyone else around him acts like it is. And there is this constant offer to him of well, if you just accept it, you can live in this happy world, like if you just isn't this what you
always wanted? Like, you can do it. And eventually it is revealed, of course, after he has to kill himself by the way, which is like he has to literally jump off the belfry to his death to escape this dream, which is a very you.
Know, shades of vertigo. You get this very like vertigo fight like at the end.
And also we all know that the rule of like you can't die in a dream, so you know, you always wake up before you die in your dream. And he wakes up and finds out that Javistech has had him in this kind of terrifying dream machine attached to his head, and he the kind of takeaway he has is well, I did it, so if you have a good life, maybe you'd leave me alone to live my life, you know, live my life of crime. It's such a heart wrenching episode, and I just think that it would
have made a beautiful comic book. But there was a freedom that they were getting in this era to tell these stories that. Imagine if you'd have pitched a story where you're like, it's just Bruce Wayne, it's not Batman, a lot of people would be like, well, why are you even making that? This is a kid's cartoon. But this utilizes the duality of Bruce and Batman and what
Batman is fighting for. And also I think that there is something quite beautiful about the fact that ultimately Bruce would rather live his kind of broken real life than live in a fantasy. It's that matrix thing, right, It's like.
Yes, you can accept the truth. Yeah, go back and dream.
Mm hmm yeah, I love that one.
What's your Name? My next pick is be where the Great Ghost? Yes, a wonderful episode. We get a flashback to a young television addicted Bruce Wayne, who is a big fan of a TV superhero program, The Great Ghost, who's this kind of like the Shadow esque crime fighter, and then there is this kind of story on top of it. We're in the modern day, there's bombs going off everywhere. Batman makes the connection that, oh, a lot of these attacks seem to be modeled after plots from
The Great Ghost. So he tries to find episodes of the Gray Ghost to try and do his analysis. He can't find these particular episodes that he needs, so then he decides to track down the actor Simon Trent, who played the Grey Ghost, and the depiction of Simon Trent is like something you've never seen in a kids show, Like he is living on the margins of Society's an older guy, is completely alone. He can't pay his rent.
He's selling off like his memorabilia. He's like sitting alone in his in his one bedroom apartment saying, well, I've sold enough of my stuff to pay the rent this month and then that's it, like I'm absolutely done. And so when Batman comes to him, he's like he's really stand off it. He doesn't like he doesn't want to engage with that part of his life. He's unhappy with it. But of course there's like a reproachment. He shows up in costume to help Batman solve this crime. You know,
fucking Bruce. Wayne could give him five million bucks and just say like you're good now. But if he doesn't do that, that's a different for a different day. But and then there's the you know, and then I talked about like the meta commentary angle. Yeah, the voice acting is Adam West, who I mean, it's like a mirror image of his career. This is almost thirty years now when he appeared in this after his turn as Batman
on the original Batman television show. And he brings a kind of melancholy to the role, a knowing melancholy that is like really affecting. And what's cool about it too, is you get to see Batman as a fan. Yes, Like Bruce is just a flat out fan of the Gray Ghost. Like and there's that weird like moment where Bruce realizes the parasocial relationship he has with the Grey Ghosts where he has like disappointing and when he first goes to visit him, he's like disappointed that the Grey
Ghost like projects him. He's like, Greg Ghost is my hero. I don't know what I was thinking. You know, he like walks away and then at the end, like he rebuilds that wonderful vision of Simon Trent the Greg Ghost. But you really get to see Bruce grapple with like what it means to feel like you know somebody that you don't know because they were on television. It's really cool episode.
Yeah. I also think that it's like so much brilliant meta text here because like a key part of why the Gray Ghost is kind of unemployed and sad is because of type costing, Like he couldn't get out the roles, and that is this really haunting kind of reference also to George Reeves, who have generally played super Man in the Superman serials in the forties, who would end up taking his own life and a lot of the reason that he struggled was because he was never able to
escape playing Superman. And there's so many layers to this. I also adore the fact that the happy ending here. Look as much as I would have loved for Bruce to give him five million dollars million dollars, bro, like go to the bank, put in your piece, give him like a monthly allowance. But I do love that, as
is the way with really smart TV shows. Instead we get to see that once Trent is kind of recognized not as the villain who's been doing these bombings, but as a hero who helped Batman and them they re released like all the episodes of the Gray Ghost, and then he gets money from distribution. His merchandise goes up
in value of revitalized career. Kind of like you know what would happen with Mark Hamill when they would revisit the Star Wars franchise with the Force Awakens after many years of Mark being the only one who kind of kept the Star Wars love alive. Who would be going to the conventions and stuff, and even obviously Adam West and his family kind of managing to make money when CBS would or whoever now has the rights to those
Batman DVDs would put them out. I just thought that was such a cool, interesting ending, but also as the best TV does as a kid actually teaches you something about the business.
Yeah, no, it does. It was like it it's a lot more hard hitting than you would expect, you know.
Yeah, I love that they can do that about stuff that isn't solely about Batman. You know, this is actually hard hitting, but it's about a character before this, you've never heard of.
Yeah, we'll be right back after a quick break.
And we're back. What's your next one?
Okay, so my next pick because I think this is one of those it's.
Almost like this is a great episode.
Yeah, it's such a great episode. And also I think it's almost like a it feels almost like a fever dream, because when you're a kid, you tell on everyone, oh, have you seen the episode of you know, the but Men, the animated series where it's adapting The Dark Knight returns and everyone's like, what are you talking about? That definitely never happened. Aha, it did in the Legends of the Dark Knight, which I think is a really really clever idea.
This is veering into an interesting different territory here where the show was relaunched in what I believe would be its third season as The New Batman Adventures, and it's
still just as great. It's as it's basically run as like season three if you watch it now, I believe it's streaming on Amazon Prime, but basically it looks it's three kids who are reading the Gotham Gazette and they're reading about criminals and they basically kind of see they think they can see Batman in a photograph, and they start having this conversation where essentially they talk about different eras of Batman, and then it is adapted as they
talk about them in the style of an old Batman comic. And you do get the most memorable thing here, and this is Bruce tim episode Robert Goodman, directed by Dan Reebar. You get this feeling here of a future of an animated series that never existed where this is all they do and it's so great. And obviously there's a girl called Carrie who's one of the people. There's a boy
called Nick, a guy called Matt Anna. Matt's telling a story about his uncle and he's seeing a kind of more of like a Golden age sort of Joker and Batman, and then yeah, fifties, and then there's Nick and he kind of tells more of like a Silver age one. But obviously the one that we always remember is Carrie kind of telling this story about a girl Robin who is Carrie Kelly and how she gets to see the mutants.
And it's adapted in this kind of Frank Miller esque style, which I think is really cool because even when they did adapt the Dark Knight Returns, which Warner Brothers Animation did a few years ago. They didn't adapt it in Frank Miller's style. They adapted it in a much more modern style. So here we get to kind of see these mutant leaders. We get this huge, hulking Frank Miller Batman. And while I feel like the memory of this is like, oh, it's a direct adaptation, it's not. But you do get
to see the mute. It is a broadly but it's a badly beat, like like you will see it and you'll be like, how did they do this like this? And I think when I was a kid, this almost felt like it didn't exist. Like you talk about it and people be like, no, no, man.
I did not see this live and it was one that I heard about and I was like, exactly do that.
You're like, didn't do that. But I think this is a great example one of trusting a creative team when they do something different, because there was a lot of scandal when the New Batman Adventures came out, especially because they were adding Batgirl as like one of the main three, and but honestly, it's such a good episode. It's so
much fun. It is a really cool, exciting kind of reminder of what can be done when you look directly at the comics, and I will say something I think that really stands out about and the animated series is a lot of times like Heart of Ice, I would rather that they went crazy and just changed stuff and
did their own version. But occasionally if you dip your toe back in and kind of do something like this that's so interesting and so visually different and really harks back to the comics, that can be equally as good.
So I think this is a really fun one and also just a great reminder that even though a lot of our picks are from the first season, which I do think is honestly a perfect season of TV, there is great stuff later on and this is This is one of my favorite episodes, and it's one that I love to show people because when you get to that Frank Miller kind of imaginary tale where they're like, oh, this is what Batman's like, everyone's like, whoa like the
Dark Knight. This is so cool. It just it's definitely one of those coolest, coolest episodes.
My next episode is a two parter. It is two Face parts one and two. This tells the origin story of Harvey Dent's turn to two face. The Harvey we meet is already struggling, struggling mightily with anger control issues, Like he's liable to just like pop off the drop of a hat.
Actually so much, very very similar to the Harvey that we get in Cape Crusader. Actually very very similar. Yeah, a pre two faced Harvey who's still like is already there.
Yeah, he's in the midst of a case against a mob boss, Thorn, and Thorn knows that Harvey has mental health issues and is like actively trying to exacerbate them. Harvey has been waiting for like the sting operation that's going to like get the evidence that he needs to really convict Thorn. But it turns out all to be like a setup that Thorn manipulated it, and it drives Harvey over the edge. Eventually there's a shootout like in a in a chemical factory, and there's an explosion and
Harvey's face is burned. That's the end of part one. There's when you know, there's a shoot at he falls down, the electrical wires like fall on him. There's an explosion, and then Batman comes up. You don't see anything but Batman just says, oh, no, Harvey, you know it must be bad. And then there's also like a very very funny moment where the doctor is like taking the band the doctor's like there might be some scarring.
But then like the medical team who removed the bandages. This very unprofessional guys. He's very unprofessional.
Also, I want to say that like this is actually and I mean this I joke. I joked about this on a podcast I did with Chase six Trophies recent podcast we did about the Dark Knight movie. Oh, I joke about Harvey's gambling addiction. But like it's right up front and center. This is a guy who has a he was in the grips of a terrible, terrible gambling addiction. Like he can't stop, he can't stop. He's talking about the odds all the time. He's like, it's actually like
Pemmy recovery. Yes he needs it. And then part two is Harvey's complete turn to to you know, big bad Harvey, to the dark side, to two face. He's got Henchman now you know, he's he's doing crimes. Batman meanwhile, is like just torn up over the fact that he couldn't help Harvey like he all he wants to do is help. Harvey keeps telling him like there's nothing wrong with asking for help, like we can get you help, Like, yeah,
we can do it. You know. Eventually, Harvey captures Thorn and is going to kill him, but the good side of him pulls him back from the brink when he sees like a picture of like a regular life and like a normal like family, and he's like, oh God, and he manages to not do it, and he gets captured, and of course, you know, Bruce puts him in Arkham and then there's this really bitterscream moment where like, you know, he's looking at his friend that he's now captured, and
you could feel that he's like he takes it personally that he as a personal failure that he wasn't able to help help Harvey. And there's just like a lot like there's a lot of funny stuff too, but I think it's like a very it's a shockingly nuanced depiction of like mental health issues. Yeah, a cartoon.
Yeah. I think they just did a really good job with bringing this to life. They do a great job with villains in this. My next pick is also a villain. But I just think that this episode showcases that like soft touch, that that kindness. Also the fact that they chose to make it a two part episode. They wanted to give it the time so you could see Harvey, you could see who he was before, you can see
who he is after. And once again, it's that soft side of Batman that you were talking about, where he is kind of more devastated by the fact he couldn't help than he is by anything else that happens.
Yeah, he doesn't like beat the shit up of Harvey. He takes his He takes his lucky coin and replaces it with a big bag of like other coins. That is the thing that like allows Harvey. Harvey just becomes like completely submerged in his own like mania at that point when he can't find his coin, that like Batman's able to scoop him up. Yeah, like without violence essentially.
M Yeah, that's a really good point.
Actually, we'll be right back after a quick brick and we're back. What's your next one?
Okay, So my next one, which I do think is one of the most impactful episodes canonically of the series, is Holly and Ivy. This is such a great episode. I believe Paul Danny pitched it as like, well, if we did Thelma and Louise, but with Poison Ivy and Holly Quinn, I mean, who doesn't want that? Also January eighteenth, nineteen ninety three, this is the first time that we get that Harley Ivy team up that now obviously has become iconic. It's become a relationship, it's spawned TV shows.
I'm sure in the dream it would spawn movies, and of course it inspired comic series like Gotham City Sirens and basically like Jokers Fleeing Batman, Harley's in the driver's seat, she doesn't do what he wants, and he basically like fires her, and she's like, okay, fine, She's like I'm out, and she decides she's gonna take over from the Joker and she's gonna do a heist, and eventually she kind of gets entangled with Poison Ivy and they start to kind of team up, and as Ivy says, this could
be the beginning of a beautiful friendship. And we get some really interesting law here too, because I'm sure this was just a storytelling kind of narrative trick. Because Ivy gives Harley an injection that allows her to kind of avoid it simulates like Ivy's own immunity to toxins, right, And that's so that she can just like hang out in her area. She can hang out in the Ivy layer.
But she can hold she can hold the little pots, she can hold the little pods.
But that in the show and in the comics becomes canon to a why Harley can survive great falls, why she has extra strength, why her and Ivy end up being so close because they have these shared powers. We also get a lot of moments that I think start to ironically years before the comics would deal with this. You're talking about almost twenty years before the comics would deal with this. Ivy tells Harley off, She's like the Joker's an abuser. You got to leave him, Like, what
the point of this? No, he's not he's a great guy. Or he's a great guy.
Am I am I a pushover?
Also, this is old school Harley, which means you have Arlene Sorkin voicing Harley. Arlene Sorkin who was the inspiration for Harley Quinn after Bruce tim saw an episode of the old sitcom she was in where she was dressed as a clown. And then they got Arleene Sorkin to it during like a dream sequence, and they got Arleene Sorkin to come and voice Harley, so you're getting that
old school Harley. And there's a great moment where at the end when they're kind of fleeing Thelma and Louise style poison Ivy says she's like, no man can take us prisoner. And then Rene Montoya, who is a woman, she disables their car and they get sent to Arkham Asylum, you know, and this is, yeah, it's just so good. It sets up I think this antagonism, this friendship, this romance that probably at this point a lot of fans hadn't even really considered, and it is a massive reset
for both characters. It continues on, especially in New Batman Adventures. They do a lot of uh, kind of back together episodes with the par of them. But it's really, yeah, it's just I think it's such a great episode and so hugely influential, huge on the comics.
My it's a great lead in for my next one, which is Joker's Favor, which, of course first the introduction of Harley Quinn in a pre Harley Quinn kind of look. She's more just kind of like jokers lead assistant slash Henchy. It's got such a fun opening, Like there's this just normal citizen of Gotham who's like having a road rage. It's like driving around when he like has a road rate incident against the Joker, who also is just driving around like a like a station wagon with with his
like luggage upped up. I guess he was like going to the like out of town to go like relax. The guy sees that it's a joker and tries to flee, but the Joker catches him and is like, Okay, I'm not gonna kill you, but I'm going to ask you for a favor. You know, at some point he's going to come back and he's gonna say and he's gonna say, you owe me, so you have to do this thing. And years pass in which this guy Charlie is like like on edge wondering when's the fucking Joker gonna come back?
So scary.
Yes, Well, the Joker shows back up years later and he wants Charlie's help taking down Commisser Gordon at like a big party at the police station. Uh, Charlie doesn't want to do it, but like he does it, and the plan involves the Joker inside of a cake showing up at this party. You know, Batman shows up too. There's like a little bit of a scuffle. The Joke, with Harley's help, manages to like subdue all of the
police notables, including Commissioner Gordon. They hang like a time bomb around like Commissioner Gordon's neck, but Batman manages to do away with that, chases down the Joker. They have this big fight like in this museum wonderful museum exhibit that like comes to life, and at the end of it, of course, Batman takes a Joker in and Charlie is able to like live a life feeling secure now that the Joker has been put away. It's just like a
it's just a wonderful, action packed episode. Like there's really like a lot of really cool fun set pieces, and it shows you because the Joker is played as really fun for a lot of the series, but I think he's so in this one, even though there's that kind of light hearted edge, because he's like really putting Charlie through it. For years. This guy's fearing for his life for his family's life. At one point, the Joker's like, well, I'm gonna kill your family, like if you don't help me.
And it's so twisted and really evil of the Joker, and it's that's something I really love about it, in addition to, of course the fact that it's a landmark episode because of the introduction of Harley Quinn, who is now a major character for DC Comics, both in the movies and television and in the comics themselves.
Yeah, and one of the few times that we've ever had a character who has introduced in animation that comes over and becomes like, I mean, they call her the fourth Pillar of DC. Now, along Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, it's Harlee. You know, that who gets the TV shows, that who gets her own movies. That's she always has
an ongoing series. And she was written as a throwaway character here, kind of something fun and different to do for a henchman, but instead she became so beloved that they had to keep her on and I just think it's so cool and also as well, this is just a great episode. I mean, you could do we could do a whole episode of X ray where we just talk about Joker episodes.
Yeah, I love it so brilliant, Mark Campbell, I love the Joker. He's wonderful.
And my next episode is a Jokeer episode, which is this is this is the one I watch every year at Christmas. It's part of my Christmas watching that I always do to get myself in the spirit of things, including the Star Wars Holiday Special, which is you know, terrible, This is not terrible, this is wonderful. And this was like I think the second episode ever of the show,
depending on air date, run time that you watch. And this is the first appearance of the Joker with Mark Hamill obviously legendary and he would go on to like voice the Joke movies in video games, also Dick Grayson's first appearance in the series, and basically like it's so good because Joker escapes from Arkhamosilum using a rocket hidden inside a Christmas the tree. So love the theming, Like he's always he's always on theme. He's like, it's Christmas, guys,
we gotta gotta make this fun. So Batman forces Robin to go outside and you know, be on the streets of Gotham patrolling, and Robin just wants to stay home and enjoy Christmas, which you know, I can relate. He wants to get into the spirit of things. Alfred would probably also rather that. But they go out and it's like, wow, perfect Gotham night, peaceful, no problems. Where's the Joker, don't know, Let's just go home. They're like, let's just go home
and watch TV. Let's just watch It's a wonderful life. Alas, the Joker is revealed has like taken over the Gotham airwaves and he's gonna do a Christmas special featuring all these different people that he's kidnapp commissioned.
Special is so great. He's he's in shadow, He's like laying on the Mandela and then like the lights colored Joker.
It's like really old school, like Disney, those Wonderful World of Disney specials, that what Disney used to do. And this is like a truly epic episode where you also get this outrageous like Christmas toy massacre kind of like there's there's Donner and Blitzen and they have machine guns. And I just want to say, for whatever people have issues with the Joker. Is he a sociopath?
Yes?
Is he crazy? Yes? Is he always killing people. Yes. Should the Batman probably have put him out of his misery a long time ago, Yes, But one thing I will say that Man he commits to a theme, like everything in this is the most Christmas themed villainy. He must have been planning this for like years, years and years and years and years. And he's also bringing some of the old school Joker things you want to see, like he's hanging people over a vat of like molten plastic,
which kind of is akin to the acid. It's just so much fun that I can watch this episode a million times. It definitely gives me a feeling of when
I watched it, like as a kid. Also at Christmas and Batman are intrinsically connected to me because one of my first memories, probably from when I was about two years old, is watching the scene where the Jack Nicholson Joker falls in the acid when I was like two at my uncle's house where they we must have been having a family Christmas and I was sitting and I was watching it in the reflection of the window. So
I love Batman, I love Christmas. And eventually Dick Grayson and Bruce Wayne do get to go and enjoy it's a wonderful life and it is. It manages to be both action packed and super cozy and kind of holiday ish thanks to the wonderful work of The Joker and obviously super seminole, because Mark Hamill as the Joker is one of the best castings of all.
He sings, he sings jingle bells.
Yeah, and he's singing deck the Holes and at the end he's just like Merry Christmas, Like Merry Christmas. And you know this sets up how much he loves to be having fun with Batman, Like those two just love to be playing with each other and doing these kind of.
Sick relationship that is not a it's kind of a warm one. That leads me to my next episode, Joker's Wild. Now, watching this Joker is like the Michael Jordan of escaping from Arkham. Oh he he never can do it. He can do it at will.
A Christmas tree and a rocket like That's that already is setting him up as the MVP of escaping.
Never dare him to escape Arkham, because he will. So in this episode, the Joker's like sitting around Arkham. He's watching TV with other I think Mad Hatter is there and like They're just like sitting on the couch watching television, and there's a news report that a new casino is open. It's called Jokers Wild, and it very very clearly infringes on the Joker's trademark look and is you know, quite clearly trading on the notoriety of the Joker in order
to draw people in. And the owner of the casino, Cameron Kaiser, is it publicly He's like, no, what I mean clowns. Clowns are popular, and jokers in the deca cod multiple jokers in there. What are you talking about? Just the reference to the Joker on the deck, And but like privately he's like, yeah, I want to provoke the I want to provoke the Joker to attacking my
casino so I can get the insurance. Well, the Joker sees this TV report and becomes fucking enraged and he breaks out of Arkham that minute in a multi pronged, like very elaborate escape attempt. He does it, no problem. He gets there, and then he realizes at the casino that oh wait, this is what he wants. This is what Kaiser wants. He wants me to wreck the place instead. I'm going to seize ownership of casino from this guy. I'm gonna be the owner of the casino. Batman shows up.
You know, there's like the Joker is doing all sorts of shit. He's like making it obvious that the game's are rigged. He's like terrorizing people, He's like driving cars through the fucking bedding floor and stuff. And eventually, of course Batman takes not just the Joker down, but also
Kaiser for the insurance fraud. And it's great because this is it's a cool trick that this show does a lot, because even though the Joker is nominally the antagonist of the show, and I just got done talking about an episode previously where the Joker is purely evil bastard who tortures a guy for multiple years, he's also like kind of, you know, silently like the co lead.
Of the show.
And so they've created this episode where the there's a different bad guy. The bad guy is this guy Kaiser, who, if he had not provoked the Joker, would have the Joker would have remained in Arkham yea. And so it's this really cool balancing act that they do because you actually you're thrilled when the Joker escapes from Arkham. You want to see him confront Kaiser. It's fun to watch him like driving his Joker buggy through the fucking casino floor.
I think this is a really really smart thing you've picked up on because this is a Pauldini episode. My next pick is also a Paul Deanie written episode. This man can write a villain so well, and I think it's why the Rogues Gallery sings in this and specifically the Joker, and something I'd love about jokers wild In a lot of shows, they would be like, well, the villain is popular and Batman is popular, so we'll have to have them team up. But you can't team up
Batman and the Joker. It's just it doesn't work. So I love that they introduce a different antagonist so that you can follow the Joker as if he is the protagonist.
We're going to take a quick break and we'll be right back, and we're back, okay.
My last pick is going back to the kind of more recognized, beloved episodes. This is called Almost Got Them. It's yeah, written by Paul Deini again. It's another Rogues episode directed by Eric Radomski, and it just is so good where it's basically Killer Croc, Penguin, Catwoman, Poison Ivy, the Joker, and they meet a pocon night, like a villain's pocon night, Like who's putting up the flyer for that?
Like how does this happen? And you have, by the way, Paul Williams as Penguin aka like multiple award winning songwriter the man who wrote The Rainbow Connection and all the songs of Bugsy Malone. Paul Williams as the Penguin, Aaron Kinkaid's Killer Croc, obviously Adrian Bobo's Catwoman. It is such a smart idea for an episode, and it's another reason why this show is so fantastic. It's like a dialogue episode where they all just talk about times they almost
caught Batman. So you get that kind of anthology of different experiences, but you also get this hilariously like almost like mundane view of what it's like to live in Gotham and be trying to defeat Batman every day, Like it becomes your day job.
It's That's what I That's what I was gonna say. This is like a it becomes it's like a workplace contra episode. It's just like the the villains that work at Gotham are just complaining about this guy and all the times they almost defeated him, And there's something so fun about that. I just I love hangout episodes. I've
talked about it a lot on this show. And there's just something about the idea that all the villains, the top villains would get together and have like a cards night where they're just all sitting around sharing war stories. There's something really like that's fun to me.
I love. Yeah. Also, it's like a hilarious It has like a hilarious twist at the end where you're also like Batman, like what's wrong with you? Like once again, like get a fucking life, like please, like you just he's just such a silly man. And I kind of love how this episode plays on that by showing that even when these people are just kind of having their office comedy and chilling out, Batman has to get involved,
Like they can't have a night off. He always has to be there trying to save Gotham and defeat these villains even when they're just chilling and reminiscing. Yeah, this is like such a good one. And it also this is one of those ones where if you're in the comic shop or you know, you're hanging out with your friends.
There's some fun contradictions here where you try and kind of work out if they're like connections, or there are these kind of teasers to other episodes, or what works and what doesn't work and how it fits, and yeah, it's just I love this episode and it was a really fun example of the kind of out there thinking when it comes to a kid's cartoon where every week has to be the monster of the week, which we love those stories, Scooby Doo, legendary, kind of fun, succinct
kids storytelling. This approaches storytelling more like a prestige TV show, and I think that's one of the reasons that it has stayed so fresh and so impactful. And why you know, thirty years later, we have a TV series, The Cape Crusader, that is a spiritual successor to this, that's like the number one show on Prime Video.
Coming up, we're turning to the back matter with some special friends of the podcast. Okay, we're asking folks this little questionnaire about Batman, so we might as well ask ourselves. I like that five questions. First of all, Rosie, what makes Batman in animation so compelling.
I think freedom to bring the world of Gotham and Batman and his villains to life in a way that you probably couldn't do in live action.
Yeah, I think it's that, and I will add that it's also provides an opportunity to engage with these kind of traditional old timey kind of storytelling spaces the forties the fifties in a way that feels current. You can use these as a touchdown and that can frame what you're doing in this wonderful way. There's just so much freedom to create a vibe and a tone in animation, and Batman is all about that tone. It never has to be daytime, and even when it's daytime, it can
look like nighttime. All of that stuff. Second question, in your opinion, how to Batman the animated series alter Batman's place in superhero history.
I think it provided a renewed younger audience that wasn't necessarily being catered to by Batman Returns, a movie I love and loved as a kid, but for some kids it was quite scary. It wasn't seen as toyetic, it was hard to market it to kids. I think this opened a door to a younger audience, staying engaged with Batman, while ironically also becoming the definitive version of Batman for a lot of adults. I think Batman animated series also deeply secured the idea of Gotham as almost a steam
punk Dirigibles in the Sky, constant noir. I think that version of Gotham still hangs heavy over everything we do. And obviously I also think that Batman in animated history essentially gets to generally say that's the best animated series we've ever gotten, you know, and I love a lot of different animated series. We've been blessed with lots of
superho and comic book animated series. But I think for a lot of adults, a lot of people our age until this new era of say Invincible, this kind of Western adult animation, for a long time, Batman was still the standard bear for what you could do with a comic book.
Yeah. I agree with everything you said. I don't have much to add other than to say I think most importantly, and you touched on it, it was handing off Batman to another generation of young fans and distilling the the dynamics of Gotham City and the relationships between Batman, Alfred Robin and his rogues gallery down into a form that young fans could really grasp onto and immediately understand who these characters are. I think that was really important.
Yeah.
Question three, what is the series' most significant contribution to the comics.
I think that, as we talked about in our conversation, there are a lot. I think that you picked a great one with Heart of Ice. I do think that changed everything for Victor Freeze. But I think, obviously I'm sure this is what all of our guests are going to say, it's Harlequin. That was a game changer to have a character who is meant to be a throwaway hensch who ended up becoming so popular that they transitioned her into the comics and who is now, you know,
a cultural zeitgeist in her own right. She has her own movie, she has her multiple cartoon shows, she has a spin off of her cartoon show. She has stuff that's for kids, she has stuff that's for adults. She's been in Injustice, she's been in The Batman Arkham Games. I think that is and she is still one of the best sellers in comics to this day. So I think it's Harlequin.
I'll seem out for my answer. I think it's it's showing that good ideas can come from anywhere in I love that the storytelling space and that if you have something that that sticks that originated in TV animated to you, it doesn't even be live action TV, it could be any come from anywhere, then you should run with them.
And I think it's something that is it's proof positive that a good idea just sticks, and that if you have a great character inanimated, once the fans do the thing that you want them to do, which is start watching the live action, when you start picking up the comic books, they're gonna they're gonna say, where is this character? Why isn't this character here? And it's a natural way to launch a character.
Yeah.
Final question, what do you think the legacy of Batman the animated series overall?
I think we've touched on a lot and I really like your kind of big picture answer. I will say, just because we haven't really talked about him, I do think one of the legacies, and definitely now that he has sadly passed away, I do think it is Kevin Colmroy. Batman is like a definitive legacy. Not only that, but introducing us to Kevin Conroy, his performance as Batman becoming so definitive for so many of us. Also, I think part and parcel of that is as young people understanding
what voice acting is. You know, you have Mark Hamill from Star Wars, He's the Joker, so you start thinking like, oh, doing voices, like that's a job. Kevin Comray for so many years people would say that's the best Batman. I think Kevin Comray is a huge part of this legacy, especially as he later shared with us that he was also a queer man who had found, you know, a voice through Batman and a place to be able to
live and be free as himself. I just think that Kevin Comray, his importance and his part of the Batman legacy cannot be ignored. So for this one, I'll say Kevin Comray.
For me, it's animated as a strength for DC as a media corporation. I think this this established DC as a place where vibrant, hard hitting, emotionally resonant stories are told and adapted from comics and told in animated form. And as you know, in this era of live action comic book movies as DC, to be fair to them,
has played ketchup a lot of the time. They've been leading for all of this time, and it is a massive, massive, Yes, it's a massive strength for the company and it has been ever since Batman the animated series totally What makes Batman in animation so compelling, I.
Think I think the thing about Batman is that you ironically want to hide as much of them as you can, because he's honestly a dude. It's with like funny little pointy ears on where's a very you know ghost cape, you know, like, but in animation, like suddenly the shape of him gets to be different, and it's the thing they did in Batman and animate series all the time, the cloak dynamics of like sometimes he looks like a
priest where it's all the way down the middle. Sometimes it's the giant silhouette of a bat Sometimes it has no physics to it anymore because it just gets to be somewhat abstract. And you can't do that in live action, you know, live action, it's it's too real. And Batman is honestly a character that wants to defy reality, and I think animation ends up being the perfect medium for him.
Yeah, with that in mind, kind of in your opinion, this is a big question, but how do you think Batman the Animated Series altered Batman's place in the kind of superhero canon because it really did have that much of an impact.
It had that much of an impact, and I think ironically what it did was it for as serious as Tim Burton's Batman film was in nineteen eighty nine, Batman the Animated Series took the character and took the world like it was dickenzie and drama, like it was never
a joke to them. Yeah, you know. And when you get episodes like Heart of Ice, which suddenly makes mister Freeze this this tragic hero of his own story, it never took it as ironically, it never took it as children's entertainment, and not that that is a pejorative in terms of children's entertainment, but the themes were so rich,
the attack on the characters were so rich. It imbued everything with a dignity that it had never had before in a medium that had never really given him that much play like he's a super friend, you guys, you know, and like, but now Batman, Bruce Wayne and the tire Rogues Gallery just has this heft that it had never had before, and that heft is what has now survived through every other iteration to it, like now it's it's Deckenzie, and now it's Shakespearean, or it had never really been
before Batman the animated series.
Yeah, the show had a huge impact on the comics in many different ways, esthetically thematically. What do you think the series' most significant contribution to the comic books has been?
I think, you know, and I will relish in the fact that I'm the first person you're asking this question to. Harley Quinn is probably the biggest significant contribution that came directly from the animated series and has since just proliferated through every iteration of Batman ever since, to the point where we have a freaking Joker movie coming out that is just all about Joker and Harley. You know, I think it was It's it's that I mean Hardy, of course,
I think it's the Joker, you know. I think Mark Hamill's Joker is the Joker people hear in their heads in the way that Kevin Conroy's Batman is the Batman they hear in their heads. Yeah, you know, and so the fact that it just sort of set those templates so incredibly strongly, you know that that I feel like that stuff and the Harley stuff are the the constant, pervasive influences of that show.
And obviously this is kind of an ever moving question because legacy continues, and the legacy of the show is not over by any means. But what do you feel like the legacy of Batman the Animated Series is right now? Like, now that we're here in twenty twenty four, what do you feel like the biggest legacy of the show is.
I think it was it was both faith in the character and believing that something as inherently silly as Batman deserve to be treated as well as it did. You know, I think the amount of care and craftsmanship that when it's a Batman the Animated Series is somewhat unlike any animated show that had come before, at least American animated shows, to the point where now we're living in this sort
of golden age of animation. You know that that that spans, you know, both both audience and content type and creation
type and country of origin. Like I think a lot of that we're taking animation seriously begins with Batman, the animated series, you know, begins with with the kind of like Alex Toff inspired character design, and they like the deep, like the weird noir of what that Gotham city was like, and the fluidity with time and space that that had, the the we could kind of do anything and then did do anything.
It.
I think it inspired lots of artists to be like, oh, what if I did this with this character? What if I gave this level of integrity and rigor to he Man? What if we did that with Shira, What if we did that with you know, name it like ThunderCats, Like things that had previously been sort of relegated to the sort of dust bin of juvenility. That's a word began to be reclaimed as like, you know what, it can
be for us, for always. And so I think that that something like Batman kpe Crusader is just the latest in that long line of like this can always be for us, you know, we don't have to give it up when we get older. We don't have to put away childish things because they were never childish to begin with.
And I think I think there's something there's something kind of phenomenal about what you know, Bruce tim and Alan Burnett and Paul Deny and like that whole crew managed to pull together Lightning in a bottle that then just sparked everybody's imagination for decades to come.
Okay, here's the here's the real hard question. Your ultimate Batman the Animated series episode.
I mean, I'd be a knucklehead if I didn't say Heart of Ice. You know it's it's I had. I had never given mister Freeze a second thought because he was so silly. He was always silly, Like you know, is it do with a with a with a snow cone machine on his back? Who diamonds? You know, Like I've never been quite so disappointed as like going to see Batman and Robin and being like, this is how you're going to basterdize the heart of vice story? Like
come on, what's an negger? Like I know what you're trying to do, but like it's you couldn't get there. But that level of pathos for a character who had been a joke is so endemic of what that show could do. And the love that everybody who made that show had for these characters was just like, yeah, you know what we are going to make you cry over the villain in a Batman story. And if you can pull that off, then that is a very specific magic trick that I think so many of us are trying to replicate.
Yeah, the end of that episode is just its heartbreak. You do not see coming.
It's heartbreaking and like power to you, guys. You made me cry a thing I never thought i'd cry at, which is a Batman.
Cartoon mark next of your time.
Yeah, oh my pleasure, gang, this is a.
Blast stoke to have you back. On tomorrow's episode of X ray Vision, we're diving into episode two or four of The Rings of Power, including a wonderful interview with EP Jennifer Hutchinson. Then on Tuesday, check out a very special video game episode where we'll be covering all the news updates and of course Star Wars Outlaws. Friday, we're continuing Animation Month with a special time capsule episode on Miyazaki's latest film, The Boy and the Heron.
X ray Vision is hosted by Jason Ken, Sumpsion and Rosie Knight and is a production of iHeart Podcasts. Our executive producers are Joelle Smith and Aaron Kaufman. Our Supervising producer is a Boo Zafar. Our producers are Carmen Laurent and Mia Taylor. Our theme song is by Brian Basquez.
Special thanks to Soul Rubin and Chris Laude, Kenny Goodman and Heidi. Our discoored Moderata