What I'm trying to warn you about what about spoilers. Today there will be major spoilers from Sodi's Run Them Let that regard it, Disney's What If, and not even the watcher knows what else. Okay, fine, great, thank you for this, I love you.
Hello.
Welcome to episode six of Extra Revision of the crook Of podcast, where we dive deep into your favorite shows, movies, comics, pop culture and more. Today we are covering the finale of the Disney Plus show What If and giving our thoughts on the pure, uncut insanity that is Venom Let there Be Cardage and so much more. But first, welcome back to the show writer, comic book whiz pop culture prophet, the Great Rosie Night. Rosie, Hello, Hello, how are you doing.
I'm doing great. I've my brain has been absolutely shattered by the venom Let their Becardage experience, so let's talk about it. Quick quick recap for the folks. This is, of course, the second Venom movie and spoiler alert, a bridge for Venom to enter the MCU, directed by mocap Whiz Andy Circus, written by Kelly Marcel of Saving Mister Banks in Fifty Shades of Grave fame a quick recap
if that's necessary. Venom and Tom Hardy's Eddie Brock have deepened their relationship, but of course, like any relationship, they've entered that rocky phase, that kind of like post I love you phase where it's like, Okay, now it's time to do the dishes. Now it's time to clean the apartment, or not clean the apartment apparently, and uh, you know, a Venom would like to eat people, Eddie Brock is like, no,
please don't. Meanwhile, a piece of the symbiote has gotten free during Eddie Brock's interview with the serial killer Cletus Cassidy, and guess what, Carnage is born. This movie is purely insane, Rosie.
I mean, everything that you just said sounds like it couldn't fit into eighty five minutes. And what you were talking about was literally like the first fifteen minutes of the movie.
Well that let me just say this, eighty five minutes a brisk eighty five like it goes Yeah, it wastes absolutely no time getting to the mid credit scene, which is really the important thing. I love eighty five to ninety minute movies, and this is one of those.
Ninety minute movies. Is like I always say, like if a movie's ninety minutes, I'm probably gonna enjoy it. But I was not prepared for a big budget, big two superhero movie to be a five minute. It's like we are living in the three hour Like I saw this on this same day There's No Time to Die, which was really good, but it's like two hours and forty
five minutes. So I went into this thinking it would be like two hours and twenty minutes long, and suddenly it was the end of the movie, and I was like, WHOA, what just happened? Like it is absolutely unhinged. It took everything that I thought they would never carry over from the first movie, and they just put only that in
the second movie. They cut out the kind of cinematic backstories and the and the stuff that tried to make the first movie a long and be story based, I guess, and instead they were just like it's Tom Hardy and he's playing Venom and Eddie Brock they're both unhinged. And also here's Michelle Williams with some unbelievable line reads.
Just Michelle Williams is in this movie, Like I need to put the down payment on my lake house, like yeah, energy, like I'm here to make sure my kids fund is firmly established.
In the first movie, she actually has like my favorite line, which is near the end of the first movie, after everything that's happened, when Venom has apparently been blown up or something. They're sitting on this street looking over like the beautiful late San Francisco stealin and she looks at him and she's like, really sincere. She's like, sorry about Venom.
Like I say that all the time because I'm like, what do you mean He's like an alien who took over this guy's body, Like, what what do you mean? Sorry about Veniam? But in this movie, every line she delivers is on that level of incredibleness. Like they're in a restaurant and she's like, is Venom in there? And she's like, yeah, secretly talk to Venom. And it's just
like I can't fathom. When I watched the movie, I'm like, this is a true time capsule of the time we're in, because there is just no way that this movie exists at any other period of time. There's just no way.
Part of the issue and part of why this movie is insane, this is let me just bottom line it, this is not a good movie, but there are things about it, much like the first Venom movie, that are so insane that I'm really glad that they're there because they're so weird. That said, no one in this film reacts the way a human being would react to literally anything. There is one point where missus Chen.
The missus Chen, the grocery store.
Owner who remember from the first episode, miss Chen is is hard at work and a venom host right, so, like Venom and Eddie have been separated, and Venom is jumping from body body and absolutely just burning, just killing bodies, out killing people. A venom host wanders into missus Chen's store, so it's Venom and a different body and collapses and and pukes. It's like the blackness coming out of like
and and looks like on the edge of death. And missus Chen like lovingly cradles this half corpses head to her chest like a like a mother cray lak er child. It's like what And the theater is guffawing loud. You knew that it was gonna be nuts. When the movie opens with the Chiron nineteen ninety six and we see a younger version of Cleatus Cassidy played by Jack Bandira. So this is the younger version of Woody Harrelsoon's character. Woody Harrelson was about thirty five thirty six in nineteen
ninety six. He's being played by like a twenty three year old man in this flashback, and they dub Woody Harrelson's voice now over the performance of Jack Bandera as young Kleatus. It is that choice alone is so fucking crazy, and you knew when that happened that you were in for this shit.
And and so like the funniest thing about that is like that is the most unhinged thing about opening, But it almost isn't because like you we're we're introduced to them because they're like, so it's Cletus and U Shriek, who's Frances Barrison, Ye know me Harris when she's older, And they're communicating through their toilets like it's like a romantic toilet sister is like they have to put their faces next to their toilets to talk to each other
in this like terrible orphanage there. And also the other thing that kind of blew my mind about that opening is they just straight up basically say that Shriek is a mutant. She's like, she's like, oh, the mutations are too strong, And I was like, whoa, I didn't even know, like Marvel anyone could say the word mutation, like what's going on here? And uh and yeah, I mean that, it's just that when they dubbed Woody Harrison's voice, you just know you're in for it. You're like, it's it's,
it's it's things are going on. I mean, well, they just so obviously like they wanted to get to the end of that, and they wanted to do some cool fights, and they wanted to through the mid credit scene. So halfway through the movie, they're just like, uh, what's Woody Harrison been in before Natural Born Killers? And then they just do like twenty minutes of Natural Born Killers with him and.
Shriek, down to his outfit, down to the car, down to the way they are driving around. Naomi Harris, you want to talk at line reads Naomi Harris in this film, man, She's one of the greats. I love her.
Yeah.
How crazy Also to be like, you saw her in two movies that day and it could not be the oh yeah in No U of Polar opposites truly, like No Time to Die.
She is just the absolute like smoothest, Yeah, incredible. You just watch her and you're like wow, like I just want to see like the movie only about Moneypenny, Like that's all I want to see. This is just pure in this movie, she's just chewing scenery and venom. She's loving life. There's that one scene where she's like, he's like, I think it's the guy from Veep Dan, and he's like Dan was also named Dan in this movie.
Strangely, they made the decision in movie one to be like this actor's most famous role is named Dan, so we'll just make him his most famous role is also named Dan, so let's also call him Dan. And he completely confusing.
He only has like one he is playing. Even though he's not like a total scumbag like he wasn't deep, he definitely has a similar energy. So it is like
really confusing. And then so he says something like he's like, oh, you know, Venom's gonna kill you or he's gonna kill both of you because they kidnapped Michelle Williams, who's obviously not that bothered about it, and she does this line reading that is just so iconic because she's like people tried it before, and then she just really high pitches it and she's like botched it, and you're just like, this is unbelievable. Like she is having so much fun.
I just kind of love that, Like I feel like Andy sex is. Their action was just like do whatever you want.
Yeah, do more, do more, and again, this movie is super weird, kind of bad, but they take so many crazy like listen, the relationship between Brock and Venom is essentially a codependent romantic relationship. Again, at the end of the movie, Venom tells Eddie Brock that he loves him in a very sincere way, and they spend the entire movie when they are together arguing. They then separate. Venom goes on this weird like vision quest where he goes to a rave.
That's kind of coded as a Pride yeates lots of rainbows, and then he gives a speech about how he's.
Coming rainbow lights around his body.
It's it's like, I think that actually, like that the one thing that I'm like, they should have just committed to that and just made it pride and made it obviously they're gay, because everybody knows they're in love with each other, like these two codependent, toxic losers in their own words.
You know.
That was another bit when he was like, you are a loser on your planet, and I was like, oh my god, this is like the line that I never thought we would hear from again where they just both call each other losers and admit to being losers. That is in the first like five minutes of the movie. And he was like, I know what you want. You want Venom to talk about how he's a Loser's like yeah, yeah.
Another Like there's so many crazy moments. So at one point during the Natural Born Killer's Escapade, Cassidy and Shriek are driving around and they stop at a gas station where the clerk is just like surfing the internet like on a Dell laptop. Cassidy jumps over the counter, kills the gas station attendant, and then puts his symbiote fingers
into the US people hacks. Legitimately hacks the laptop to discover the location of the asylum where a shrink was being held, and it like creates a browser.
It creates a red carnage themed browser that somehow from a random kid working in a Badega's laptop hacks into like top secret police files that the main cop did not know about. He didn't even know about them, the one cop.
I mean.
Also, the other thing is like on a comic book level. So Shriek in the comics is a is a symbia, she's not. Yes, And we also meet this Patrick Mulligan who's played by like legitimately one of the best actors in the world, Stephen Graham, and and like he is just the funniest like Boston cop kind of trope. And he in the comics becomes Toxin. So it's like that kind of hot. It was like somebody was trying to set up like a planet venom, like multiple symbias.
But then they were just like eh because because because Shrink is.
Apparently dead at the end of the movie.
Interesting, So this is this is a perfect bridge to start talking about the the universe's expanding tagline from the promo materials, which we all assumed would be We're gonna get these asexual spawns of carnage and venom. We're gonna meet Tocsin, Shreek, et cetera. We're gonna see all the kind of like mini symbiotes that have in Marvel cannon spun off from Venom. I think that it's we all assume that's what it was gonna be. I certainly did.
And then the mid credits scene comes, and what it is is an introduction of Venom into the Marvel timeline. I think we're gonna see Venom in uh No Way Home, like almost confirmed. Basically, Eddie brock Is is sitting on the bed in some shitty hotel, upset about his life.
He and Vanom are wondering what's next, and then all of a sudden, everything changes and they're in this tropical location and Peter Parker is on the television uh as part of a you know, Daily Bugle editorial comment where you know, the Bugle is saying, this guy fucking sucks the whole you know, everything that's going on with the cereal sucks.
I think it's the same thing from the end of Far From Home. So I think it actually sets it up as being basically they join at that moment, which is just before No Way Home.
Yes, and Venom says that guard because apparently.
Okay, so I okay, so this is what I think. So in that scene, right, so they Eddie takes Venom on like a romantic holiday, because Venom's dream is that he can like put his toes in the sand and feel the wind in his hair and then that but it's like kind of a scrubby like hotel. And then but just before it happens, Venom says something that I think is one of the most hilarious and probably gonna end up. It seems like a throwaway line, but I think it's gonna be a really big part of No
Way Home. Venom says to Eddie they're watching a telenovela and Venom's like, everybody has secrets, and Eddie's like, oh, are you hiding something from me? And then Venom says, eighty billion years of the Symbia high mind, you don't know what we've seen, like you couldn't comprehend it, blah blah blah. And he says he's going to show it to Eddie. But then this weird like universal change happens and they end up in the MCU. But I think because when he sees him, he sees Peter Parker. He
licks the screen. It's as gross as it should be, and he's like that guy. And when we see in the trailer for Noway Home when we saw Doc Cok, he also recognized Peter, So I think there's gonna be some idea of like in the Venom's case, he maybe he has seen Peter through the Tota Grace is not coming back, but maybe something like that is gonna happen, and it's I think it's like, it's very silly, but this whole movie is really silly.
I think that's right. So in the comics, eventually we get the backstory of the symbiote, who I believe is named Clerk and uh because of all the kind of like bloodlust and trauma and murders that he's committed. Eventually he goes back to the Hive Mind where he's like cleansed. Maybe we get some kind of version of that that allows Venom to not be the weird Sodi Venom and and kind of like cleanses it of all the strangers and makes it more malleable. For the MCU inclusion, I think that they're.
Probably gonna just like my feeling is, I couldn't really want it was blowing my mind when you first watched that movie. You just can't be prepared for it. Even if you've listened to us talk about it. Now, you can't really be prepared.
EXPERI cannot. You are not ready for how fucking crazy this day movie? You just simply are not.
So you're just not. I saw it like again and I still wasn't prepared even though I had already seen it. So I do think that there's I just think there's kind of some I was trying to work out. Kevin Faggy is like a king of quality control. Part of the reason they're having to explode the MCU into this multi verse now is because of how absolutely streamlined it's been up until this point, so it doesn't to me.
I was like, what can Faggy and the MCU and Disney get out of this by not making it something where Tom Holland just randomly has a cameo to make Sony happy or whatever and making it where you bring venomin. I think it's to get the Symbia into the MCU, because then you can you can venomize other characters, you can have anti venom you could actually do a black
Symbia story with Peter or maybe Miles or whatever. And I think, really, as much as I would love to see how they could fit wild Tom Holland it's just it's too wacky. MC Watching that movie, you just realize how safe the MCU plays it, you know.
Yeah, I agree with that. I think that it's going to be something like that as in the comics a lot like the movie, the Symbia has a like love hate relationship with a lot of its hosts, including Eddie Brock, and there's a lot of like leaving and coming back and leaving Eddie Brock for Peter Parker, but then rediscovering Eddie Brock. And it does that again and again with different hosts, and there have been more quote unquote normal hosts.
So I think that you're right about that. I think that we're going to see the I think we're going to see the Symbia cleaved off of Eddie at some point and maybe kept in a laboratory and studied by perhaps a scientist named Reid Richards as they figure out a way to kind of introduce the Symbia into like
the more mainline Marvel canon. That is a lot there's just stuff that would not work in Marvel Disney constitution, for instance, And again there are so many weird moments of this, But like The movie kind of ends with Eddie Brock talking to two chickens in the park that are his pets that he bought for Venom to eat, but Venom didn't want to eat them because their brains were too small, and to these and they're best friends.
Talking to two chickens about the classic Spanish novel Don Quixote and the relationship between Don Quixote and Sancho Panza. That's a scene in this is also a recurring theme.
Like it's like it happens once and then he returns there, Like it's that's something they really thought was important enough to like put in twice. It's mind blowing.
I think, like so in in Marvel, like, uh, let's talk about some of the things that Venom does in the comics that we could potentially see in the MCU. So Venom, I mean venoms and Guardians in the Galaxy, which for a spell which I don't know that people really know about.
Yeah, I think as well, like they've had so much success, Like they did a big venomized event where everyone got venomized. You know, they had a venomized t Rex in Old Man Logan, they had venomized rocket and group. They had venomized everyone, and those toys still sell to this day.
My nephew has a venomized Miles Morales. They still keep venomizing these characters, seeing what would happen when a character, So if they wanted to do a kind of darker take on something, you know, we've seen them do Marvel Zombies a version of it, and what if I wouldn't be surprised if we saw some kind of venomized thing or saw an unexpected character like Gwen Poole or something be introduced in a venomized way with I think that they must be really and also they love military stuff.
I know that one of the Venom the kind of like later stage.
Agent Agent Agent Agent Venom. The was a vet, right, yeah, he was a vet. It was like a paralyzed vet.
And then the magical the Venom is like a magical disability cure. Is very not good to me. But that definitely does seem like something they love. A militarized superhero that could be an interesting way. Also would be very easy for the Symbia to get into the hands of
the military and the MCU. So also that space is a big thing right now, not just in what if but with the scrolls and everything else, so we could even there could even be something where the tom Hardy venom coming into the MCU is not necessarily a fake out, but is a bit of a red herring for where the real symbia might come from with all the space exploration.
Actually, you know now that you mention it. It was recently revealed that the Symbio and Gore, the God Butcher like share a common ancestry.
That makes a lot of sense when you think about Gore's powers.
Actually, yeah, so I could see the symbia being a bridge to love and thunder in some form or fashion to get us prepared for the God Butcher.
Also as well, like if you were going to trust one person and one tone in the MCU to bridge those it would be tiger like.
It would tid.
Humor and the cheekiness, but also with the ability to tell like slick human character based stories that you would probably need to kind of take venom from the venom. Let there be carnage to a venom that's acceptable in the MCU.
Do you have any venom rex for people who are like I gotta know about venom?
Well, I think the number one thing you need to read because of it was a it was a let's say, and I'm going to put the inverted commas around inspiration, but it was definitely an inspiration for this movie. Is Venom lethal Protector?
That's I mean they mentioned it only fifteen twenty times mo.
Yeah, I mean they even proceed the coming to the MCU where they're like, you know, He's like, we'll go wherever they need a lethal protector, and that means a lot to Venom because he really wants to be known as the lethal Protector. But that's a really classic series sees Venom take on more of a he he thinks he's a hero because of the threat of other symbias
and stuff Planet Venom. Also, if you want to know more about the kind of characters that we've seen in here, I'm I think one of the reasons this movie and the first movie was so popular, Venom was such like an inherently nineties staple. Yes, there were clothes of Venom, there were baseball shirts, there were toys, there was POGs, there stationary.
Yeah, you know, that was a very ninety.
I think that we people who grew up in the nineties or who were around that whether you were a little kid, whether you're a teenager who thought it was cool, whatever, that is the buying market for these movies. And I think this is the ultimate nostalgia payoff for Sony because I just that has to be the reason why people go to these So I think looking back to those nineties comics is like really fun. Also, the original black Suit Symbia Spider Man storyline, it's just really tall. The
art is amazing. It's really interesting to read, and you will be surprised by how how accurate this Spider Man three representation is. Like when comparing it to Venom, You're like, wow, Spider Man three really was like into the comic book accuracy.
I also, I will notice that it appears that his bracelet budget was cut.
I know it was disrespectful. It was for the wigs.
That must have been what it's for, because you know, we're talking like a mid five figure bracelet budget. For the first movie.
They let him keep his horrible leather jacket with a zip down the middle. That was like it, and then they were like, we need to spend at least five hundred dollars on Patrick Mulligan's wig. And also Woody Harrison's Wig justice for Woody Harrison's original Venom Stinger Wig, though, because I would have loved to see this movie. I feel like this one wasn't good, but I missed the chaotic, noodle headed like red nightmare wig from this Stinger.
So who are we going to see? Your predictions? Who we're going to see? In No Way Home?
And after that ending, which i'd heard, i'd heard rumblings that maybe Tom Holland would be it. I did not believe it. I didn't he believe it.
I was shot fell open.
I'd heard people saying like, oh, supposedly he's going to be in this post credit scene, and I was like, yeah, of course he is, sure, Like wink wink, where did you get that news from?
I was wrong?
So after that, I just think it's all bets are off. I think we're definitely obviously seeing the old Spiders. Yeah, Andrew and Toby. I'm really hoping if that's the case. And now that we've seen that they're open to having Tom Hardy's definitely going to be in it, We're gonna at least see Eddie Brock. Momentarily. I don't think they're going to bring to because I think that it makes they can just be like the symbia is the connecting
tissue there right right. What I'm really hoping is we're gonna get to see Nicholas Hammond, who played the Old Spider Man in the CBS TV shows. I want to see the guy who played Japanese Spider Man. Like, if they're really gonna do it, I'm like, let's just do it. And after Venomide, no, I would love to see Spider Ham Spider Ham's and Icon. I mean, bring in Nicholas Cage as yea as Spider Man. I think we could
see Miles now. I don't know if they would do I don't know if they would do something where in a momentary animated sequence of the Multiverse we saw into the Spider Verse Miles or something. But I think Miles is coming soon. I just, I honestly are I never saw that venom ending coming, and now I just think anyone's going to be in it.
I wonder if we do see I think we're introduced to him, maybe not powered up, but I was thinking, you know, who knows what the off ramp here is or I don't know what Tom Hardy's contract is, but there's a world in which obviously the Sinister Six is going to be involved in this. We've got basically everyone now, you know, ultimate Peter Parker perishes while fighting the Sinister Six, and that paves away for Miles Morales. You know, theoretically, that's on the table if they wanted to do that.
I do think that this movie, we're going to see a version of doctor Strange die. We now know there's probably multiple versions. I think we're going to see a version of Peter die, probably the main version. Tom Holand has played this character for a long time. He's old now. And also we all know, if you've read the comics, those almost Spider Ma comics, there is a part of that storyline where you have Peter and Miles together. So
it's not like Tom Holand couldn't come back. But I do think that we're going to see a lot of deaths. I think they're going to go for a even though it's only been a few years, I think they're going to try and go for an endgame style event movie that's going to introduce a ton of big cameo moments and also some emotional death situation.
That's a good point because like what is as we're looking ahead here, what's the Team Up movie? That's the thing that we're missing is the Avengers framework, you know, and and the you know, the Captain America acted this way too. Is it No Way Home? Or do you or is it? Is it mouthed Madness? Do you think that is the Team Up movie?
I think it's probably gonna be Mouth of Madness. I think that No Way Home. We're gonna get multiverse, A Multiverse of Madness. Yeah, I know, it's that's where they took the name from. I think it's okay to get it mixed up. Yeah, Doctor Stranger in the Multiverse of Madness. I think that's gonna be the team up. You're gonna have Wonder, You're gonna have Strange. It's Wonder gonna be
on his side, who knows. You know, that's potentially where you could get some more cosmic characters are clear, Maybe you know some Mount Wondergore stuff. We they hinted at the other at the end of that's my personal dream. I will keep talking about it forever.
I do.
Simon Williams wonder Man like. I think they could introduce a bunch of different weird characters in there or eventually if we see No Way Home as maybe Malivas Madness as like a two pot movie because we know Doc Strangers both. Maybe No Way Home is going to introduce some characters that we will then see Tea Mop in Malis Madness.
I Love it Up. Next, Rosie and I step into the airlock where we talk about the finale of What If. We're back today. We're stepping out of the airlock and into the multiverse to discuss the finale of the first
season of What If. First, a quick recap, so the finale builds on the events of episode eight, What If Ultron one, in which post apocalyptic Black Widow and Clint make a deal with the devil, in this case the Nazi former Nazi, current Nazi, former founder of Shield Arnim Zola, and download him into an arrow in the hopes that
they can use him to to corrupt Ultron. Can't be said enough, Arnam Zola, Let's remember this active Nazi and that and that leads us into episode nine, What If the Watcher Broke is Oath, in which in order to defeat Ultron, the Watcher assembles the Guardians of the Multiverse, who are these various characters who we have encountered throughout
the course of this series. They are Captain Carter, Star Lord t'chala, a variant of Gomora that killed Thanos in her universe, Killmonger, King of Wakanda, Party Thooruh Corrupted Strange, and then they meet up with a post apocalyptic gnat who has the the Arnomzola arrow. Let's talk about this.
I love that description. It really it really sums up the chaos, the kind.
Of action I mean, it's an action pat Like, you know, there's about eight minutes of setup in which we you know, we get a really fun, fun scene of that's basically Captain Carter in the opening intro from Captain America Winter Soldier, like doing the strike on the Lemurian Star. Like, the dialogue is the same, the whole thing is the same. She's fighting Batrock the Leaper as the Watcher shows up and it's like, okay, we need you to come with me,
and then we just basically get into it. We see Killmonger as well, and then it's like they just get into the action. Yeah.
He just he plucks them from all over and he's just like paw, like you need to fight this Evil Vision Ultron Combo.
Now, I will say from an action point of view, this felt like the most one of the most comic bookie Marvel properties I've seen in terms of the way like everybody's abilities work together, the kind of synergy between characters. I thought the character choice was very interesting here.
Yeah, and I do think that that episode a where we saw the Watcher and Infiniteultroun like punching each other through the multiverse, that really was the key point where I was like, oh, this is like, this is comic bookie, This is like what you can do with something based on a comic book. I also think Disney was having
some fun. I think like Mustafar from Star Wars was in there and they were punching through I saw an area that like that the area, and then they kind of definitely continued that on in the finale with this really outrageous just like twenty five minutes of fighting and crazy powers and unexpected team ups.
Now let's talk about first we were talking looking in the pre pro about the depiction of the stones here Ultron.
The way he uses them I think probably the best and most accurate like use of the stone, like where you really get a feel for how they work for me is either their intros in the various Marvel movies right where you're over the course of the movie that introduces each Stone, you know, Powerstone and Guardians for instance, you see what they each do, and then the fight on Titan in Infinity War with Panos, I think was
a good display here. It's as we were talking about, it's kind of just like Ultron is very powerful period.
Yeah, I think as well, Like I think something that this show did that works on some levels and for me makes it a little bit less impactful on others, is like it's so heavily based on MCU and MCU law that it almost kind of ignores unless it's bringing new cool stuff in from the comics like Shimigorath, who I love, but like a lot of times like it's law is so based on the MCU that here they're just kind of like, what are the Infinity Gems do? They're powerful, and I'm like, no, I want to see
this infinite Ultron has the gems. He has this infinite understanding of the universe and everything about it. He even understands that the gems are different on each universe and in each space but like the only thing we see him do is just use the timestone like really quickly, and I'm like, I want to see I want to see what these gems can do in this unbelievable cosmic space that they've created, like rather than just making some people.
Same with kill Manger, he gets those gems and he's just like cool, and I'm like, no, do something with them, Like you could do it again with them.
You know.
With the with the kill Monger part, I could almost I could argue it away in the sense that like he just picked them up, you know what. I Like, like there would be yes, your kind of theoretically your consciousness is expanded to like every quarter of the of the galaxy and the universe. But I could see there being you know, a period in which you're like still figuring them out.
Yeah.
And also if he's learning from what he saw from Infant Ultron, he wouldn't really know how to use them. So yeah, that's actually that's actually really fair.
So that part was fine, but like Ultron should just be really good. He has, by this point in his life cycle, has like taken out multiple universes. I think at this point.
He he somehow is able to utilize the power of the stones to make himself like a giant cool galactus head, and he's looking through different multiverses. It is the ultimate, the ultimate quandary of any comic book type story, which is the super overpowered villain against the relatively human and.
Relatable heroes should not lose, right exactly.
But the big kind of catch there is we have like ultra overpowered, unbelievable, corrupted, crazy Strange.
Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned Strange because listen, if you've been on the internet at all, you've seen these like meme formats where it's like this Blue Team first Red Team, or one's Gotta go, or which selection of five like characters from comic book movies beats beats what other selection of five characters? And the thing you have to realize about doctor Strange is he's overpowered. Like a lot of big fights that happen in comic books are like how do we how do we get Strange on the sidelines
for long enough? And it makes sense that they wouldn't just win. Doctor Strange at one point in this First of all, he like creates a protective ward that saves everyone's life a million times in the fight.
And makes like super cool like cosmic amah. So it's like staguly pleasing, and it's also very useful.
Conjures a three headed dragon like he does all these things. He at one point, ultron like creates an explosion that is like the size of the galaxy and Strange eats it. He literally just is like I'm just gonna swallow this and it does nothing to me. Strange is so fucking powerful, and it is it is nuts how strong he is.
Yeah, it's basically it's a really it's a really nice bit of payoff. I feel like one of the things about this show is it's sometimes I wasn't sure if it was connected or it wasn't gonna be connected. But this is a really good payoff for that episode four where it's the and he imbibes all those weird monsters and everything, and and I just I liked seeing his
wild powers here. There's like a nice not You see him kind of become or at least inhabit the powers of like a schumagor Ath esque tent called creature, and he really that almost beats infinite John. And that's really cool because in like the old stuff where they're first introducing Shumagorath in Marvel premiere. Oh no, I think it's actually Strange Tales Volume two fourteen. Schuma and Stranger like facing down and is like, if you try and fight me,
you're gonna become me. And it's like, yeah, like that's literally what happened to Strange. It like that was a really cool nod. But sadly Schumer cannot ultimately be the one thing to be him, so they obviously will have to team up, which is the It's the point of the Avengers, right or the Guardians of the Multibus. I.
I also love that the Strange tapped into Schumer gower Ath's dimension, his demonic classic, a classic Strange move when it's like, Okay, the fight's not going well, break the glass on the you know, the emergency switch, and I guess I'm gonna have to like tap into some demon dimension or like drink the drink the vial of Zong and become a demon as he does in like Planet Hulk, which is a thing. The thing I love about it is, you know Strange wants to do this, like yeah, he
loves power, he loves he loves it. He's he like all day is in the you know, his sanctum, coming up with reasons that he shouldn't tap into a demon dimension or like drink the vial of zomb but now he gets to do it. Yeah, so he he loves to do shit like this. Of course it doesn't work, and then Strange will spend the next like several story arcs dealing with the fallout of I tapped into the dimension of Schuma Goraz and now what do I do?
But I love that. I love that that happened. And yeah, thattle scene was that, you know, it was shot really well with we're constantly you know, focused on the soul gem and it's like, oh, now it's kicking over here, and now they can't get it, and now this person is trying to get it. Yeah, that was really fun.
And I think that is something that I think is kind of cool is if people have grown up on the MCU, which like a lot of people have because it's been going on for so long. Now this it it's got its own set of easter eggs and references that people who maybe haven't really gone into the comics but love the MCU. Like when they were having that big final fight, it definitely echoed the Battle of New York.
You know where they're going around, and you get to see the different weapons, and you get that circle of the kind of Dolly shot almost. I thought that was really nice, kind of it's nice to look at what came before, while also kind of making something that's it's a little bit different.
I want to shout out the fun Star Wars easter egg when when all Shan first shows up and drops the mountain on everybody, and he does the all too easy just straight out of you know, Empire shregs back when Darth thinks he's taken out his son Luke, but then he hasn't, and Luke leaps up into the ceiling. Let's talk about the morality of including some of these characters, because there are some. I think there are a few head scratchers, genocidal killmonger who listened, he took over Wakanda,
he killed Tony and killed and T'Challa many people. Obviously is one of the smartest and most brilliant strategists that we've seen him in, but I think perhaps a head scratcher. And then of course active Nazi arnhim Zola again not an X, not an active, still loves Nazis, still loves the Nazi shit, likesibly doing the Nazi stuff. Or it's the.
Ultimate curse of the MCU being so tied to Hydra Is in the comics Hydra Nazis and even if the MCU doesn't want to deal with that, that's just how it is. And so that that always kind of I'm like, I'm I feel like, surely you could have hank him Jarvis Bruce Banner's computer from when he was a kid in the eighties and he coded something. I feel like, narratively,
there's other places you could go. But I also understand that Animzolar is like so intricately connected to the MCU at this point, so like I get why he's where they went, but I wouldn't have gone there. And also I just have to say, of course it was Black Widow and Clint, like that's the decision.
That ye folks to me, you know, that's like, hey, let's go to the founder. I will say that, like, listen, I love Toby Jones. I think he's great. I love the voice. I end up there are I spend a silly part of my day almost every day doing an Arnham Soola voice to myself just like, yes, I am, Oh, this body is fantastic. Look at my glutes. It's has been such a long times as I am, this feels wonderful inside the drawn body.
Yeah.
I mean he really got to do that too. He was like as soon as he was in there, I was like, well done, guys. You guys made infinite infinite on Iimzola, well done, good.
Good bye moms. Again it's fantastic. But as we were talking about in the pre pro like, okay, you need an AI because that's how you're gonna defeat. Is there not a Jarvist in this world? Like can we not ask Jarvis to do it?
We saw like we saw Sakarian armor Tony stock with Gomora, and like, as to a pointed out in the preper like, surely that means as a Javis if Tony exists, there is a jobis.
Like that Friday Friday not doing anything like we can't get we can't get Friday, and like, in fact, I would love to know what Friday is up to in.
Chilling in a computer somebody like drinking some sea.
I'm sure Friday would love to get in the game, you know, like I'm not sure that it needs to be Zola. That said, here is the one way that I can talk myself into involving active Nazi Arnam Zola as well as genocidal Kilmonger in this I read it as kind of like, uh, like a Lord of the Rings, why can't we kill Gollum situation? Right? You spend you know, the entire second book in most of the third being like, yeah, just fucking kill this thing. It's he's going to betray you.
You could see it. You know it's gonna happen. Why can we kill him? And you know, like to the point where Gandal's like, well you never know the part people gonna plan and you're like, Gandalf's shut up, like let's go. I think that you can make a case for it because if Strange and the Watcher know that, you know, and they say the Watcher knew everything kind
of knew like what was gonna happen. If the Watcher's plan is ultimately to like lock you know, the villains into a pocket dimension, and if the Watcher selected the Guardians knowing that kill Monger, intoxicated by by power, unable to resist the call of the Gems, that he would pick them up, and then you would also have to have an AI that would corrupt Ultron, making it be Arnham and kill Monger, much like goll Those are two characters that you don't feel bad about locking into a
pocket dimension forever because they are immoral kind of bad. They're bad guys, they're villains. Whereas if it's like, okay, if Captain Carter and Like and Party Thor are are the last two, I would you know, who are holding down Ultron and the gems, and then we have to lock everybody into a pocket man, I would feel bad about that. Whereas these two they pick up the gems, they're struggling forever, and then I lock them in the pocket dimension. I throw away the key and no one
is like, oh does anybody feel bad about No? Zola is an active Nazi, like, let's just get rid of this is a terrible this is like the terrible people. But I will say, from what we know about old corrupt Strange Supreme, I do feel like giving two people who are morally corrupt and who have the infinitey Gems or a version of the Infinity Gems, and these like super sick, almost like doctor Strange not a good person to like.
Sit Strange Supreme power mad Strange Supreme probably like not a good person to give them too.
I will say we we kind of like I did. I did wonder if we were trusting corrupt Strange a little bit too much, like he had very very recently spent a long amount of time like in bibing a lot of evil and just kind of like digesting it.
And ignoring everything the Watcher said. But now I guess the idea is it's like a redemption arc, like he wants to make up for it. But I feel like that could go badly in the future because obviously this I did feel like a lot of what was going on here was kind of would we will potentially see it? And season two it feels like, you know, so something I thought they were gonna do. I just wanted, did
you so there's like six heroes, right. I definitely thought at the end they were going to do like an Infinity Watch thing where each of them got a gem. That seemed like a really smart sim people solution was.
When they when the initial part of the plan was okay, we got we get the soul Stone, and I thought that's where it was going to go explain what the Infinity Watch is.
Okay, So after the events of Infinity War, the did they decide that the best thing to do to keep the stone safe is give them to each of these different heroes throughout like the Marvel Universe, and it's Adam Warlock in the Infinity Watch, but in because Adam Warlock is more of a key player in the Infinity saga than we saw in the MCU, which is interesting because they definitely did tease him. And then Guardians the Galaxy.
I think I will be shocked if he is not in Guardians three.
I think so, and I would be really excited to see that, to see hit them introduce him at this point.
So, yeah, the weirdest characters of all time.
Yeah, so I think I thought that. I thought, yeah, basically gold Jesus, So I definitely thought that was where they were going to go with it. But you know what, keeping two people in like a tiny wed pocket dement constantly fighting over this one version, that's fine, Sure, go for it.
I wonder at what point do they come out of it and be like wait, wait, wait, time out of time out? Time are we? Where are we right now? As we're still like, at what point do they do they realize or do they just like fight literally forever before.
I do wonder if like we could see like a season two or season three like Bottle episode that's just those two like having a conversation about oh they will get out right, you know that, or just like sitting
in there and like having a conversation. Maybe teaming up, Maybe not, but I definitely could imagine that because that was a big part of that Doctor Strange episode was kind of the existential like crisis of it or being trapped with yourself, but these two are just trapped with each other, which is actually probably much worse than being trapped with yourself.
Obviously, a lot of overtones of like Age of Ultra. I was watching this and thinking, well, you know, if they ever try and adapt to kind of post apocalyptic Ultron world, they kind of can't do it now because they've they've they've kind of done. This was basically Age of Ultron minus Mutants minus Wolverine.
Yeah you know, I know, dude, I was thinking that a lot a nice team, but needs more X Man, Like, yeah.
Well.
Could they not? I mean I found myself thinking this, like and we as we've been sitting here wondering when will they introduce them? When will they introduce them? I obviously it feels like what if, as you noted, is it's based on mcure, so until something happens at MCU, it kind of can't happen. And what if we can't get it? What if this scenario based on characters that haven't been introduced yet? But like, why not? Why couldn't we see?
Seems like this.
Could be the world. Yeah, it seems like, yeah, why not? Like could it not happen?
Imagine imagine if it when the Watcher had been one firstival. I just need sense. I should have said it when we first said the name, but whoa about when? It was like when I saw the title and it was if the Watcher broke his oath?
I was like, what if he didn't? That's what the what if would actually be? What if he didn't? Because he breaks his oath every fucking time. Every Watcher story is just him breaking his oath. But if he was going around breaking his oath, I was just like, imagine if he'd just plucked a wolverine from somewhere, an old man logan, you know what people would have lost lost their darn minds, and I understand the MCU. Well, the thing is right, so I would I was about to say, I.
Understand that MCU doesn't work like that, and there's five ten years of planning and blah blah. But after the end of Venom, I'm like, actually, that's just the mcu' is messy. Now I'm like Tom Hardy, Venom is in the MCU, bring in Wolverine, bringing Storm, bring in whoever else. I'm like, it's fine now, everything is everything.
As you noted, Figy is like the master of neatness. He demands like efficiency and kind of like streamlining. So they probably wouldn't have it, but it'd be amazing if it if it did happen. What I will. I want to bring up one kind of how does this work? Which is in line with our conversation about like the gems. So the initial plan was they're going to use the Infinity Crusher, this kind of like grinding device to destroy
the gems that Ultron has. But then it turns out it won't work because the Infinity Crusher is from a different universe, different set of gems, doesn't work here. So then why do Ultron's gems work at all where he is.
Yeah, it doesn't the logic behind that, I understand that the narrative decision to introduce that easy solution and then take it away like that's you you on that gut punch, but it doesn't make sense. I guess the idea is he has at some point in episode eight he kind of mastered once he understood the Watcher was there, he mastered the multiverse. So in that way, I suppose it's like his own omnipience.
Like right, and it's like it's a master set of gems.
His power becomes I got. But then in that way, I feel like no gem Crusher would have been able to solve it, because that's the gems have almost taken on a different role where they are the multiversal gems rather than gems from you know, another universe.
One thing. First of all, I love the I love Strangers time saving gambit to like drop all of Marvel Zombies on the head of Ultron, But it was really about setting up this convernation between zombie Wanda and Ultron and then so she blasts him and then there's like a moment of recognition but then nothing.
Yeah, it doesn't make any sense, Like we there is literally an entire episode in this show, the Marvel Zombies episode where we learn that after seeing Wonder Vision and how Wonder and Visions love is kind of this twisted
like they'll do anything for each other. We see that in an extreme version in What If, where Vision is literally like filating T'Challa and the speed Wander zombie Wonder and you're telling me that this zombiefied Wonder the most powerful mutant superhero whatever word we're using in the world. You're telling me she doesn't see her hunky Infinity Stone wielding he does husband he looks.
Really cool, and also like she would recognize him like that, And then Strangers just made the worst decision ever, because then you have zombie mutant Wonder who can't control her infinite powers and.
Literal infinite Ultron who has Vision's face and does still have the Mindstone and come on, that that to me is a that's that's a mistake.
That bumped me too. I was like, wait a second, that's it, Like, what is her reaction here? There? Clearly she recognizes him, does he know what the connection is? M But it kind of also feels like that was such a big bump that we're gonna they have to explore that at some point, like that's is that happened in the comics if you, if you like, turn a page and it's like this recognition between two characters, and then you turned it and then we back to like
some other fight in the a story. M hmm, A year, two years, five years later, some point in time, some creative team would be, Okay, we have to unpack what that is because that was kind of huge.
I think so too, because also think about it, he has the time stone, like there are things that could happen here that would and obviously maybe, but Ultron knows everything. Ifanoultron knows everything, and he is Vision and Altron together,
so I feel like that has to be there. And I feel like it makes sense that Wanda recognizes him because even Wander is so in love with Vision that in the comics, even when he loses the thing that made her love him, the personality Simon Williams, you know, mind print, imprint or whatever is, she still wants white Vision. She still wants Vision who is not Vision, you know.
So I feel like that connection is that Yeah, I think if like you said, the fact they add that moment of recognition that probably means we're gonna see maybe season two will have like King Infinite Ultra on in like you know.
Maybe Queen Zombie.
Maybe she'll break those two out of the pocket dimension to try and re create Infinite Vision. But yeah, that was a moment. I was like, Oh, this is trouble.
These are the things we are thinking about in a post whatef world. I'm excited to see what they do for season two.
Yeah.
Up next the Omnibus. Welcome to another chapter in the Omnibus where lower analysis and understanding come together. This week, let's explore the origins and the ongoing cultural fascination with Spider Man Symbiete Suit and the introduction of that character along with Eddie Brock. Nineteen eighty four is Marvel Superheroes Secret Wars ushered in the era of the crossover of the twelve issue limited series, which influenced continuity across the company.
Was the brainchild of then editor in chief Jim Shooter, a titanic and widely reviled figure who set an incredibly successful course for Marvel Comics from nineteen seventy eight to his ouster in nineteen eighty seven to four, reportedly being such a gigantic asshole that everyone hated him so much they burned him in effigy. Yes, they burned him in effigy. That's how much Jim Shooter was hated by his staff.
Secret Wars told the story of the Beyonder, an immensely powerful cosmic entity who transports Earth's superheroes and supervillains to a battle world where they fight for the Beyonders. Entertainment, Secret Wars was not an inventive or emotionally resonant story. It was essentially an excuse to get all of Marvel's characters and the same story for the purpose of selling
Mattel action figures. In other words, it was as good as it needed to be to do its job, and that job it did very, very well through the roof.
Artist and writer John Byrne told Sean how in Marvel Comics The Untold Story, the financial windfall was so great that Marvel and DC, who sales were kind of weak at the time, briefly amazingly talked about a licensing deal which would allow the House that Stand Built to publish Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Green Lancer, New Teen Titans Legion of Superheroes,
the JLA that would have been crazy. Besides making crossover events part of the regular cadence of superhero storytelling, Secret Wars's main contribution is unquestionably Spider Man's black costume, later to be revealed to be a sentient parasitic creature who would go on to become, along with the journalist Eddie Brock, the villain slash anti hero Venom. Now the Symbiote actually
has two first appearances. That the alien first hit newstands in May nineteen eighty four is The Amazing Spider Man Number two fifty two, which told the story of Peter Parker's returned to Earth in his new Black suit after the events of Secret Wars. But Secret Wars was an ongoing event at that time, and so it wasn't until months later, in the pages of December nineteen eighty four Secret Wars number eight, that the audience learned the story of how Peter first obtained his new costume, and that
is the Symbiote's official first canonical appearance. The rumors are true introducing the new Spider Man. Read the cover of The Amazing Spider Man number two fifty two, which shows Peter in his new black suit with white trim swinging through the streets of Manhattan with a teenager under each arm that he's rescuing. The issue is a pretty boring bottle episode about Peter literally getting back into the swing of New York City after his ordeal on Battle World.
We get a glimpse in these pages to the costume's really creepy but kind of cool new abilities, as well as various hints to the costume's actual nature. Peter, for instance, retrieves his walin and keys from the place he hid them in Central Park before he went to Battle World. Quote. Instantly, reacting to Spider Man's unspoken command, his costume suddenly opens a wide seam to receive his keys and wallet. No sooner does he place them within it than it immediately
reseals itself end quote. Later, after arriving at his apartment, the suit morphs into casual wear kind of Steve jobsy and turtleneck and black jeans. When Peter wakes in the middle of the night thinking about how nice it would be to maybe do some late night web slinging, the costume SLINKs from its resting place on the chair and just flows over his body, immediately suiting him up. Months later, in Secret Wars eight, readers get to see how Peter
and the Suit came to meet Spider Man. In a collection of heroes including Hulk, Thor, Monica Rambeau, Captain Marvel, Hawkeye and others are storming Doctor Doom's Doom base, and in the course of this battle they take out various supervillains, including the recently introduced Titania, who is supers basically she's very, very strong, and the long running Avengers Foil Ultron. After the fight, Peter's costume is just in shreds, is absolutely
in tatters. He runs into Hulk and Thor and Peter's like, Thor, your cape is like brand new? What the hell? And Hulk and Thor tell Peter about this machine in the Doom Base that produces clothing by reading a person's thoughts. Peter finds a machine. He places his head under this
thing that looks like a lamp. Now. A few issues earlier, in Secret Wars six and seven, Julia Carpenter, who is that era of Spider Woman, made her debut, and she was wearing an all black costume with white detailing very similar to the black suit that we're about to see. And so Peter, influenced by Spider Woman's fit, is thinking about a new costume, and a black globule about the size of a billiard ball appears in front of him, and the substance immediately covers his body and voila, we
have the black suit now. The idea for the black costume came from a fan, Randy Schuler, back in the day in the early eighties, Marvel ran a competition for aspiring writers and artists. Being a lifelong Spidy fan with delusions of comic grandeur, I took a stab at a story idea, Shuller states in a two thousand and seven article for Comic Book Resources, Randy's pitch involves a new stealth costume, black and color, which would be manufactured by Reid Richards out of unstable molecules.
Now.
A few months later, in August nineteen eighty two, Jim Shooter, the then editor in chief, wrote back, I want to buy it. That's his opening. His opening statement is I want to buy it. No, Hello, how you doing? Please demet you. I want to buy it. Jim Shooter getting right to the point we'll pay two hundred and twenty dollars enclosed find a work for hire agreement and a voucher.
That's about six hundred dollars in today's money. Not exactly a kingly fucking sum, thanks Jim Shooter, but probably big money for a kid who's just you know, pitched Marvel cold. The agreement gave Randy the opportunity to try and write the script for this story.
Now.
Randy ended up submitting a couple of versions of drafts, but in the end it just didn't work out. Regardless, I had no regrets. As a true blue Spider fan, this was a very cool moment in my life. Randy wrote. Spider Man's new look, though minimalistic in design, was a huge change and changed generations in the making. Spider Man's costume.
A few tweaks aside, the most notable being the elimination of Spidey's like underarm web wings after a couple of years had been basically the same since the character's debut in nineteen sixty two, and so the reaction to this change was incredibly emotional. You've got to be kidding me, said Ron Friends, Spider Man's artist at the time. I waited all my life since the age of eight to
draw Spider Man, and now he's got a new suit. Meanwhile, Marvel's marketing department didn't like it because they probably not unfairly thought it would confuse licensees and hurt spot Sider Man's marketability. At the time, Marvel made a lot of money putting its characters onto lunchboxes, onto toy cars, on to posters, et cetera. And you know, this is in
the mid eighties early eighties. We don't have the kind of media ecosystem that we have today where these characters are everywhere and you can find them like at the click of a mouse. You know, changing the look of an iconic character is no small thing to do. So meanwhile, there was also the fan response, and to quote another podcast bit, the fans hated it. They hated it, and
they knew the change was coming. The October nineteen eighty three issue of The Comics Journal, a trade magazine kind of akin to a you know, comics version of Variety or The Hollywood Reporter, contained a blurb about Marvel's upcoming secret war storyline in its news watch section, and below a full body profile illustration of Spider Man and the new costume. The article reads, in part quote some of the plan changes include Spider Man trading in his costume
for a black and red one. Other industry publications around the same time carried similar stories. Thus, the cover text from Amazing Spider Man two vv two, the Rumors are True was a reference to the fact that fans had kind of known this was going to happen, and man, the fans fucking hated it. They inundated Marvel with hate mail. Faced with a furious reaction from inside and outside the company,
Shooter chickened out. He got cold feet. He wanted to pull the costume, like basically as soon as it was introduced by you know, we introduced a black costume two y two. It's off of Peter by two vv three. He didn't want to do it, but in the end, Marvel editor Tom DeFalco convinced Shooter to keep the symbiote at least until the creature made its canonical debut in Secret Wars number eight, because it would just be super
weird if later we introduced this thing. But fans already know that Peter is not going to wear it, So after that the plan was okay. After Secret Wars eight, we just get rid of it at the earliest convenience. Now, over the next several issues of Amazing Spider Man, after the introduction of the symbiote, something weird happens. Fans learned that the new costume was in fact a living creature,
a parasitic alien symbiote. They learned that at night, as Peter slept, the creature would take his body out for test drives swinging over the rooftops. Peter in the daytime is becoming progressively more exhausted. He's suffering from nightmares in which his old suit is fighting his Black Suit over control of him. And so an Amazing Spider Man two fifty eight read riches of the Fantastic Four uses a
sonic blaster to cleave the symbiote off of Peter. Peter leaves the Baxter billing like in a Fantastic Four uniform of a brown paper bag over his head, and Reid keeps the symbiote for further study. And there we have it right, The Jim Shooter has accomplished the skull. The Black Suit is off of Peter. By an Amazing Spider Man two fifty nine, Peter is back in his original blue and red costume, with the words the original is
back on the cover. But the weird thing about those issues was, over the course of them, fans fell in love with the Black Suit. They loved it, and they could tell because sales were going up. Sales of Amazing Spider Man were just climbing and climbing and climbing. Additionally, the secondary market was also popping with people looking to
collect that first appearance of the Black Suit. Now, over the course of the nineteen seventies, in pop culture, anti heroes and films like Dirty Harry, French Connection, Taxi Driver, Death Wish, Dog Day Afternoon, The Godfather Won into First Blood from the eighties in which violent protagonists operate in these kind of like moral shades of gray, were becoming
increasingly popular. Meanwhile, Marvel Comics was reaching its third decade of operation as its modern incarnation like post timely incarnation, which we would date to the introduction of the Fantastic Four essentially, and so its fan base was getting older and their chases were maturing as well, and that was reflected in the work of Frank Miller, his kind of like noirish work with daredevil, Peter David's Incredible Hulk stories in which the Hulk reverts to his gray form and
becomes this like Vegas area mobster known as Joe fix It. Also the skyrocketing popularity of Wolverine, who just like literally cuts people up with his claws, and the increasing popularity of Frank Castle, the murderous vigilante known as the Punisher.
All of these things reflected that cultural shift. The Comics Code Authority, an industry group created in nineteen fifty four to avoid governmental regulation by ensuring comics weren't overly violent, sexual, or immoral, was beginning to lose its grip, at least on the violent aspect of that kind of three legged stool now, because you know, at the time, Shooter was enforcing a strict no gaze policy, though a few creative stories, particularly Captain America at number two sixty eight by J. M.
Dematis and Mike Zech, managed to get through. Now, Peter Parker was never going to be an anti hero, right, He was never going to decapitate people. He was never going to gun down foes and throw them off the top of buildings. But wrapping him in all blacks certainly made him look more of a badass, and so the suit had to be saved. In February nineteen eighty five,
is Peter Parker The Spectacular spider Man. Spider Man's other monthly ongoing series, black Cat, Peter's off again, on again love interest, knits him another costume that looks just like the Black Suit. How did he manage to escape from Fantastic four headquarters? Spider Man says, silly, this isn't your real alien costume. Black Cat says to him, this is just an ordinarily everyday cloth version of it. I sewed it myself. It's so much sexier than your old red
and blue long John's. Now. Spider Man would spend the next few years switching from his red suit to his black suit, going back and forth. Now. The first appearance of the Symbiote and Eddie Bracas Venom came in nineteen eighty eights The Amazing Spider Man Number three hundred writer David mclaney, Who's Demon in a Bottle storyline Forever Altered Tony Stark originally intended Venom to be a woman who blames Spider Man for the deaths of her husband and baby.
Mclaney included teasers in nineteen eighty Web of Spider Man eighteen and nineteen eighty seven's Web spider Man Num. Twenty four, the third ongoing Spider Man title of the eighties that replaced Marvel's Team Up title, and that was supposed to set up the eventual reveal of this female venom. A hand pushes Peter in front of the subway train and it doesn't trigger his spider sense, which I thought was key.
Mclaney told Comic Crusaders dot Com in twenty seventeen editor Jim Salakrap want to do something special for issue three hundred of Amazing, So I said, Okay, I've got this character. He liked the idea, but he didn't think readers would accept a woman standing toe with Spider Man. Folks. It was nineteen eighty eight. I digress, continuing the quote. So I came up with the Eddie Brock character and his
background and motivation, and that became Venom. So Eddie Brock, as we meet him in Amazing Spider Man three hundred, is a workout freak and a former Terrible journalist. Eddie describes himself as this is my favorite bit of this comic. He describes himself as solid at journalism quote solid, as if he was talking about like his acumen at playing pool, not like a vital mechanism of a free society anyway.
Eddie's last story for The Daily Globe was a multi part interview with a mentally ill man named Emil Greg. Mister Greg believes himself to be the psychopathic murderer of the Senator, and Brock makes the pretty solid decision to just like run with this without like apparently checking it out, protecting mister Greg's identity through my rights under the First Amendment. I told his story incisively and compassionately, says Brock during
his classic gotam right where I want him villain monologue. Unfortunately, you know, people I think fairly thought it was pretty fucked up of Eddie Brock in the Daily Globe to give a platform to a serial killer while also protecting his identity. The police insisted that I reveal my source so that they could stop the murders. Under the advice of counsel, I finally wrote my masterpiece, announcing Greg is the sinator, says Eddie Brock, under the advice of council. Oh, Eddie,
you idiot. Less than two hours later, as Eddie tells the story, the masterpiece was undone because Peter Parker did some basic factchecking, was like, hey, that's not the Siniator, that's just like a mentally ill gentleman. The Globe fired Brock. Good what about Brock's editor? No word on that, and he was forced to scrape out a living writing quote venomous celebrity exposs and I was kidnapped by Alien's drivel.
Sounds like a good gig, honestly. He took all the money he had, moved to the Bronx, which in nineteen eighties pop culture communicated as a not very complex code for Eddie. Moved to a bad neighborhood. He turned his whole apartment into a gym, lifted weights all the time, and dreamed of killing Spider Man as he's like doing curls. Eventually, unable to cope, he decides to end his life. He goes to a church, and there the Symbiote finds him, drawn by he and Brock's shared hatred of Spider Man,
and venom is born. The Amazing Spider Man number three hundred was artist Todd McFarlane's third issue on the title, and it's kind of impossible to separate the popularity of the symbiote venom, and it's very sorry for this spawn from the rocket ship ascendancy of Todd McFarlane as an artist and creator the artists work in Amazing Spider Man
hit comics like a jolt of electricity. He along with Robleifeld, were just like one of the most exciting young artists working at the time, and his spidy leaped off the page. Legs splayed, Spider like, swinging from like intricately detailed webs, less lauded, but just as important as the dynamic character poses with McFarlane's contemporary touch on Peter and the people in Amazing Spider Man, Peter, as McFarlane rendered him, had a kind of like shaggy mullet, wore leather jacket and jeans.
Marriage Jane had this kind of like layered teased up hair,
big shouldered tunics, slouchy belt looks. They looked like people who knew that they were in the year nineteen eighty eight, whereas under the touch of previous artists, you know, Spider Man and Peter Parker looked like he literally was just like time traveled from nineteen sixty three, McFarlane's Venom was a muscle bound figure with horror elements, gaping mouth, lined with these shark like teeth, thick lapping tongue that gave the character a terrifying presence, which along with that muscle
bound look which the eighties going into the mid nineties was the period of Schwarzenegger and Jean Claude van Dam and Sylvester Stallone, these kind of like muscle bound action figures, and so this look with the horror elements was perfect for an anti hero. McFarlane, like Ron friends before him,
was not a fan of the black costume. Talking to the YouTube channel Comic Tom one oh one in March twenty twenty one, McFarland described his thinking of the symbiote as an artist in his twenties as it's not cool man. McFarlin says he told Shooter he would only come on Amazing Spider Man if Spidey got to go back to
the red and blue costume. So Venom then was a kind of compromise, a way to keep the increasingly popular black suit in the mix quote David mclady comes up with a way to basically use the costume another way they needed a visual. I created the visual. I've told people Issue three hundred isn't the first appearance of Venom. To me, Issue three hundred is the how do we get that damn black costume off of Peter Parker issue
and that he did. Indeed, Welcome to the Hive Mind, where we dive deeper into specific topics with the help of guest panelists joining us today X Ray Vision is please to welcome A. C. Bradley, head writer of Marvels What If N series director Brian Andrews. Welcome to the show. Hello, congratulations on a super fun season with a show like What If based on you know, a comic book series
that was like just unbounded by anything but imagination. What what kind of rules did you put on yourselves as you were as you were accepting pitches or coming up with story or developing story? Are the rules?
Well? Yeah? Funny? Like well, early on it we just the one quote unquote rule was it was all spinning off the Marvel cinematic universe. It wasn't going to be based on the comics or any of that type of stuff, because you know, we wanted to do what people were familiar with. It just came from Kevin and Brad. They just knew it's just like no, no, no, we don't need only the stuff that was in the movies, and we can't introduce anyone that hasn't been introduced in the movie.
So that was kind of like quote unquote a rule. Other than that, it just whatever was excited us and the you know, when we got together to come up with ideas, it was just fringing open. We're just nerding out coming up with all the crazy, but but with not get with those guardrails.
For me, and when I went into pitch for the job, I actually created a small document of like, here's the roles of the show, and there was like I think two three big ones. One was we can't let every episode turn into a team up that's going to be our finale. We're going to keep these characters focused, keep them close on one or two characters, hopefully unusual combinations. The second role flowing from that was we need to
say true to who these characters are. We've now grown up, grown up with them, either from the comics or from watching the movies. If we're going to do an episode where thor destroys the planet. It needs to make sense with who he is as a character, and in the NCU, Thor has already been through a gauntlet of tragedy and pain, and at the end of it, he's still a very good man. He's still worthy. So I was like, I'm not going to make it that he's like in a
bad mood and he comes down to destroy Paris. He's a very mood and does it by accident, because that I can see. I can see a world where Thor, Yeah, I just wants to have a good time. And I believe the third rule was the Watcher is the audience. So every time we're talking about the Watcher, it's him growing to love these characters, love these stories, and having them affect him over the course of nine to ten episodes.
So it's kind of just kind of like putting guardrails up for ourselves, the storytellers, to make sure that, like Fury, we keep our eye in the big picture.
Yeah, do you have a craziest pitch that didn't get made that you could tell us without burning a future idea?
Well, everyone seems to love that. President Rogers cameo in episode eight and there was very briefly, me and Matt Chauncey are huge Storkin fans, and we did spend a lunch eating poke bowls in the Disney cafeteria because we never missed Poke Bowl Day and talking about what about a West Wing Marvel mashup and what would the Rogers administration look like? But doesn't really lend itself to a
lot of action. It's a very talky, idealistic episodes. But if anyone out there every wants to create a superhero in the West Wing show, we've got We've got.
Notes Yilia No, I think there's probably way they get some action in there. It's a fun idea, it's great and just being able to see more of that and seeing who has his cabinet, I mean it could be could Yeah, it could be fun. It's a fun idea.
Obviously, an important component of this series is the animation, the animation style. How did you arrive at at the style that the series is presented and the look and feel of it.
Kind of there was early talks that of possibly doing every single episode a completely different style, but when Brad and I were first meeting about it, but we kind of shot that down relatively quickly, because you know, it
can get pricing and expensive to produce. But also we're riffing off the cinematic universe, and it doesn't make sense to have everything designed wacky different for each episode if it's trying to be like you know what I mean, because it's supposed to be Canon's part of the cent in connected with Cinematic Rouver. So it's like, oh, here are these stories. They are simply being told to you
in this style. Is so so therefore it's the equivalent of the live action so and so Therefore I wanted to shoot it as if we were shooting at live action. I wanted to play with lensing, depth of field, all that stuff, a because I love it, but also be because I want to see more of that inanimation. And then for the art style, I zeroed in on J. C. Lindecker and some of the illustrators of you know, the
early twentieth century because I love that look. I love jaz Linebecker work, and Hollywood's been chasing it for for like, you know, one hundred years, you know, with various levels of success. You know, and Ryan Menerding who designs like the Marvel Universe and he's just, you know, a god.
He also loves Jace Lindecker to death and so does like our productions on are Paul is saying, he's also amazing and so so the characters were going to be Jace Lindecker, but then we needed a background art style to have them blend, and so we still pulled from the American illustrats, but we had to get a little bit more graphic just to map some of the line
work that we're into. So it's kind of like a confluence of a couple of different things and then with Paul and Ryan working together able to get something that kind of worked that we wanted to, but it was Bailey. It was just me wanting to I want to see it this way and showing it to the trio and basically put up the first image of Jason Lindecker stuff and Kevin was like, if it looks like this, I mean, we're basically done. In the meeting, We're good. We're good,
you know. So then the rest of those wassible nerding out about the art. He was he was in full full steam.
So you mentioned the anthology aspect, How soon a seed did you? Did you all hit on there being a team up kind of framework of this, and.
I think I lied a lot in some of my interviews earlier in the season. So pretty much in day two we knew we wanted to do a team up. I wanted to do a team up on my original pitch. It came a different way, but you know, this is the fun of storytelling is that you find different ways to tell stories. And we knew that we wanted the Watcher to break his oath, just like in the com books, he says no, no, no, no no, and then he's like, oh, I can't possibly have that second piece of cake.
I can't, I can't all let's go.
Straight to my hips give it to me. So we just had to find a villain worthy of the Watcher and I love Ultron and Age of Ultron was great, but we felt like there was more we could do with him, and the comic books, he's such a much
more bitter presence. And luckily because Phase four has now hit Ultron mis Anfionity Gauntlet that's a pretty horrific and devastating force to be reckoned with, and it gave us a reason for the Watcher to break his oath as we were writing the episodes, Captain Carter was always a favorite. Star Lord T'Challa definitely wanted to revisit doctor Strange in a new and unusual way that didn't so much redeem him, but showed again another side of him in the lessons
he learned in his story. We knew we want to use Killmonger, but again, he's not the typical hero or villain. How would he fit into the Watcher's plan. So it was a mixture of Okay, who has been our favorites of these journey of creating into the show, and also basically Bergen was on me to take a step back and figure out what would the Watcher's plan be and how would these different elements come into play. And luckily,
I mean, the show has been freaking amazing. I think I shouldn't probably say that about my own shop, but it's been so much fun. And I think Brian agrees to play with these characters like zombie Wanda within the scripts and she was cool, but when you saw her on boards and then when you saw her and finished animation, she kind of blew your mind. I was like, Okay, she has to come back. She's the teen Rex in Jurassic Park. She needs to come back in the finale,
and we got to do her some justice. So it was kind of like, you know, just taking your cherry, picking your favorite parts and playing with the toys. Again.
You mentioned zombie Wanda. That's the moment of recognition that she has when she's facing off with Ultron seemed very weighty. Are there moments like that that are gonna that we're going to revisit in a season two what if? Or just later down the line?
She who knows? I think, you know, since the stuff exists now, who knows? Like if we're so fortunate to do many many episodes or many many seasons, there could be an opportunity where there's like a what if off of what if? Who knows? You know what I mean, Like I I it's too early to tell. But right now it's just the Skuy's disguise the limit, So who knows?
You know? It could be cool. I think, you know, because of the tag at the end of the finale, you know, one could wager that we might see someone again.
Maybe the beauty of the Marvel universe is that it keeps expanding. Yeah, and so there's always new characters new stories to tell in season two. I mean, as much as I love Party Thor I think I want to play in Shang Shei for a while. Come on, Love, like, that's an amazing role. Let's go play there.
I love the Party Thor episode as a as a lifelong comics fan, especially Marvel Comics. These heroes have been through so much, so I always loved the bottle issues where it's like the Avengers just hanging out at a barbecue or you know, you know, playing baseball or something like that. Is there a particular favorite moment or episode or even just seeing that you have from the series.
I have a special love for Darcy Lewis, so early on in figuring out Party Thor, we realized that and me with a beer in me and Darcy Lewis are kind of the same, making the dirty joke being silly. So when it came to doing an animation, we'll do temp voices. We'll do scratch voices before the actual like Cat Stennings or Paul Bettany or Chris Sundsworth come in just to test out lines and jokes against the storyboard.
I had a couple of drinks with the editors and some of the production crew at lunch and recorded the original Darcy Scratch, which was so much fun and actually a lot of her lines were ad libs by me and the crew while hanging out in the edit bay at four o'clock on a Friday afternoon and breaking Disney rules of the alcohol. Ryan, you weren't there, and you were very well. You were very much missed because we cracked up in the whiskey.
I know, I totally missed out. I'm so sorry.
Yeah, it was a kind of I didn't. I'm not very good actress, so it was kind of goading from the editors, who are very good friends of mine. And then I love Howard the Duck.
Yes, who doesn't.
Yeah, it's so hilarious because Ashley did such a great job with it too. And I really think that, you know, Cat Dennings and or Darcy Lewis is like Ashley's spirit animal when it came time when it came time to record Cat Dnnings, who's Who's just a gem. She's a magical human being and so sweet and adorable and really funny. She loved the material, loved all the stuff, and she did such a great job at it. But what's amazing.
Is like some of her choices as she was delivering the lines actually were getting very very close to what Ashley had done. And there was actually two instances where I actually directed Kat without letting her know. I directed her in a way to basically get the delivery the
way that Ashley had done it. Because actually I kind of really loved there was two spots in particular that I thought she nailed so perfectly the time the comedic timing was just was it was exactly what it needed to be and there was no need to change it. So and she gave me option and the cat gave me all these options. I'm like thinking to myself, it's
still not as funny as in this one instant. So in this one instance, so I just I kind of gave her a little note and she's like, oh yeah, I gret to dip and then shed it and she hit it exactly Ashley had done it, and I was just like I was laughing. But no. But but Cat's great and Ashley's she she writes so well for all the characters as a matter who it is, man, woman's child, doesn't matter. She she captured the voice beautifully well. But for specific quickly. It's like it's it's it's it's linked
cosmically in some way. I can't explain.
It's'm can well you you got to hit her record. I was on them as Marvel set. I think I missed. I missed her record. So we got created off there. Hopefully you guys didn't crack open the whiskey.
No no, because that was like super official work, so we're not allowed. Unfortunately, even though I magic fied my game.
I don't know for any have a favorite moment scene.
There's too many. It's like there's so much good stuff. It's like every episode has something that's fantastic, and then when I see the audience reaction to those things that we also enjoyed and just like, awesome, we did our job.
People are loving that thing. It's but I think there's a ton But but because of the nature of the fact that we, you know, chow Wick passd just way too soon, the fact that we were able to actually be in a room with him and work with him and just enjoy him as a person, even for just a work environment moment, just doing that craft and getting
him to laugh about stuff. There are some things that are not in the star warts til episode that I wish we could have addition, It wasn't any time, but he was riffed on so much stuff in the bar, like the bit when Drags is supposed to take photo. He was like withing on stuff about like he's like, I don't know if I want my photo, was taking in this body, you know, like it's just like who's gonna see this? As if he's like got some secret exciting like you know, like he's just having some fun
with it. And then there was a thing where like how does starlot to try to laugh? Like what does he laugh? We needed some laughter and scratch and he's used this very south as a specific South African laugh that had a lot of those like glottles, clicks and stops and stuff like. But he was just doing it, and he's just like, yeah, he's just creating and doing stuff that we didn't get to see Black Panther do.
But here's Black Panther basically doing these things. And but the audience isn't gonna a chance to see those things. You know, we were hoping he was gonna We're gonna do a spin off and he was gonna have his own show. With that character and that those people we never got it, but but that that was pretty spe to think able to share some time with Chaw which we had no idea it was his last, you know that we're going to not see him again.
You know, as a as a fan, it was it was unexpected and certainly really emotional to hear his voice in that moment to be and you know, yeah, you really felt it, like as a fan you felt it.
Yeah, he did an amazing, amazing job.
How how how long does it take to turn one of these? Just like from a production sense, like there's so much It seems like there's so much involved in it, but also some of the stuff was quite timely, some of the references, et cetera, Like, so, how how how quickly can you turn an episode of these around?
Not quickly in the ocean. It's not a nimble little speedboat like like.
South Park right right and not South Park.
Around the week and they're at it, but it's far longer than that. It takes a while.
We're about six months of production in house, between writing, storyboards, editing, and temp with them, that's the temp voices, and then once everything feels like it's lashed like this is the show. We bring in the marble actors, We had the designers who are like already working hard and like figuring out the way it's going to look, and then it's almost's say, about a year to fourteen months bring to actually animate show something like that.
When you especially when you take into conseration like you know, sound and post and all this stuff at the end, and you know, it takes it takes a little bit of a chunk of time.
I wrote Captain Carter two weeks before Christmas twenty eighteen.
Oh wow, yeah, that was the Holy cow.
Yeah, I was looking at the draft the other day.
Yeah, and in the early stages is a little extra time because no one's done it before, like the vendors. So but now that the machine is like up and running, it still takes time, but hopefully won't take like that that same amount of time. There's a certain degree of brevity now that now that some of that figuring out how it gets done doesn't have to be figured out. But yeah, it takes a little while, but you know,
hopefully it shows on screen. You know, there's a level of quality that we're shooting for that hopefully people appreciate.
I think they do a couple of quick things. You mentioned the influence of JAC Lindecker. How did you marry some of the or decide upon some of the kind of the comic book aesthetics that you married to this, for instance, the watchers in between realm or from which he can do all the universes, stuff like that.
Of the observatory plane. Yeah, well you need a place to hang out and like you know, take off his shoes.
Yeah, totally. No, I mean the characters having a J. C. Lindecker influence, but Jac Linderer didn't necessarily do as many backgrounds all that type of stuff. So that that's why Paul Saying was able to then work and and try to create like this look for the environments that these characters being. That seems to meld. And so we borrow also from the comics and the fact that yeah, you know, we read them when we were younger, and like the watcher kind of watching in the distance, all that type
of stuff. Those are all images, Those are all things that we needed to have.
Kirby Crackle, Yeah, Kirby Crackle was the little circles was quite notable.
Like those are those are things that comics that exist and like we have to see those, you know, so it's whether or not they look like Jason Landecker is a design start that that has no bearing on whether or not we want to use those visual motifs to write. You could just bring those together like like you know, like Reese's Peanut, butter Cup of Us and e Xacolate.
And then finally a c Legally, what is the legal status of the marriage between Howard the Duck and Darcy? Like is that do we have to get that? An old? Is that finding?
Well, look, everything what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. So as long as they're in Vegas, I think they're definitely married. Outside of Vegas, I don't know. Uh, I don't know how Darcy the Duck is going to do long term relationship. I like to think Howard has his ship together, but who knows. Maybe he does, maybe he's ready to grow up.
Brian Ace, thank you so much, thank you, thank you, and congratulations on a really fun series.
Thanks thanks so us, thank you glad you liked it.
That's all for Hive Mind. Up next to the endgame. We are in the end game now, and it's time for Rosie and I to play face off, in which we pick a character from another franchise, series, or universe that we think could defeat a particular character, in this case, Infinite Ultron from season one of What If, So, Rosie, what character from another union could be any other story could stand toe to toe and potentially defeat Infinite Ultron. Could it be Gandalf? Could it be Denarius on Larry On?
No way? Could it be Neo in the computer or outside of the computer. Okay, we can unpack that later. Could it be or it could be Darth Vader, or could be dark Side, et cetera. Who do you think it could be? We were just talking in the pre pro that, yeah, dark Side. If dark Side has like two years to get it together.
M maybe if dark Side's been planning since before Earth came about and he's trying, he's like, you know, with Granny Goodness or whatever. Maybe maybe he's.
Assembling like his his like army of children and super villains and like.
Some reason. But it would take by fifteen years he did, it would be Poultrons already in a pocket dimension or whatever. So I think Neo is actually such a slick answer because we know how important the computer is. But my my answer is going for like a Battle of the Witch type thing. Like Ultron has always been a character who's obsessed with knowledge, obsessed with destroying humans, obsessed with kind of like finding out how things work and then
using that to kind of dismantle stuff. So my character that I'm gonna pick would be Pinhead from hell Raiser. One because I love the whole I love the whole Hell Raiser franchise. And two because I think the puzzle box. I think, if you get if somebody just appeared to Infinite Ultron and was like, are these pesky humans annoying you,
try this puzzle box. You know, if you open it, you can unleash Hell on all these multiple universes, and then he would be, you know, trapped to the center bites, potentially end up in the hole, or just get like torn apart by cool hooks or something. I think, I think you gotta go out of the box to beat him, because within the world of the MCU, he's almost he's almost too overpowered. So I think if you're going outside, you got to go really outside. So yeah, I'm picking Pinhead.
Doug Bradley Pinhead only.
I love this. Neil would be good any kind of like computer e AI slash virusy like Neo is you know, computer Jesus, it brought down the machine world. I certainly think he's capable of doing it. I think probably a smarter answer would be like corrupt agent Smith to just kind of like Overwhelmtron's like synapses that said, you probably have another problem then, because then you have Agent Smith in charge of all infinite Agent Smith. You need to lock them in a pocket mansion. I'm gonna go with
you need to keep Ultron. Whether or not you could defeat him, what you need to do is keep him occupied for a long, long long time. So I'm gonna go with an amalgamation of characters. I'm gonna go with uh death from the Ingmar Bergman movie that plays chess with the night Right, but an amalgam of that death
with the death from Bill. It's head's bag his journey right, and so that death would just constantly be like, Okay, let's do fidget spinners, Okay, let's do bottle flipping, let's let's play bass, and so like it should just be
like constant, constant, constant, constant challenges from death. That would keep Ultron infinite Ultron infinitely tied up in like a million billion infinite different games, and he would never be able to escape like you couldn't, so he would never actually be like physically and existentially defeated, but he would just be like constantly being doing okay, like word jumbles. Okay, now we're playing tech and now we're playing Mortal Kombat.
Now we're like playing jacks like twist and that would twister and it would go on and on.
That is I really thought I had the most out of the books on some That is honestly a perfect answer and amalgamation of two perfect things. Igmar Bergman and Bell and Ted.
That's it for the endgame. Let us know whether you agree you couldn't disagree more. Share your answers using hashtag xrv endgame. That's xrv endgame. Thank you Ac Bradley, Brian Andrews, and Rosie Knight for joining us in another episode of X ray Vision. Rosie, where can people find your stuff? This week?
I have a ton of different stuff. I got a lot of Halloween esque situations going on with the spooky season. So I'm going to be at Polygon nerdict as always ign and I'm the only social media I have his Instagram, so feel free to follow me on now. I always shout out. The podcast is just Rosie Marks mr X.
Next week our episode will be returning to its regular Wednesday release for your weekly dose of the deepest dives and hotestakes. Until then, what if, guys, what if? Just what if? Think about it? X ray Vision is a Crooked Media production. The show is produced by Chris Lord and Saul Rubin. The show is executive produced by me and Sandy Gerard. Caroline Reston Carlton Gillespie are our consulting producers and our editing. Sound design is by Sarah Gibalaska
in the book That Chapter four. Big thanks to Brian Basquez for our theme music.