Dune: Prophecy Season 1

Warning, today's episode could date spoilers for the first season of Dune Prophecy on HBO, and of course the wider Dude Cannon be warned.

Hello, Jason Concepcio and I'm a busafar.

And welcome back to x ray Vision, the podcast where we dive deep, deeper than a sad word. It's your favorite shows, movies, comics of pop culture coming to you from our podcast will Ward bring you three episodes a week every Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday.

In today's episode, we are joined once again by Jason and h from Escape Patch formerly known as Dune Pod to talk about Dune Prophecy season one in its entirety. Thank you guys for joining us. Lovely to have you back.

It's a delight, thank you for having us back to talk about this very important piece of pop culture.

Dive right into it. Can we just take a minute and give a shout out to the goat and say rest in power our Dune King David Lynch.

Yeah, yeah, great, even with even with all the changes, an absolutely unique vision that I think is stands on its own as a just an incredible imagining of that world and some of the things honestly like the navigators feel like that's what they should look like.

Yeah, I think that's right.

I think I think he defined parts of the Dune universe straight out of his imagining. That made it more vivid than even what's in the book. Even though the movie is beloved by bayouts, I'm getting choked up. No, even though the movie is beloved, it was a failure. But still his imprint on the Dune universe is eternal, and these just a tremend this visionary director.

So we will miss him.

Yeah, I love you, David.

Well, let's so, guys, season one of Dune Prophecy in the books. Yes, we expect to season two. I think we should. You know, season two will be coming. Our thoughts now that this has we have finished six episodes, not a tremendous amount of runway to get a story off the ground. Certainly a story is sprawling and interwoven, as this one is spanning multiple time frames, the past, the president in some of the future. Your thoughts on season one, Well.

So we were you know, we were a little nervous about the show. We were excited because we want more stories and we want to get we want to get into the world. But Obviously, we were nervous that it was not based on some of Frank's works. Jason and I have not read unlike Abou, you know, we're only lightweight Dune fans. We have not read all the Brian Herbert books. And then it had a very troubled production, right with the original showrunner getting fired and then the guy from Chernobyl coming in.

We're like, yes, this is gonna be incredible.

Then he leaves, and so it's we were sort of a little skeptical. There were some real highlights the production design and the costumes and the sets and seeing some of the stuff was really amazing, and some of the performances were really really incredible, especially with the younger cast members. But then there were just also some misses, which I am sure we are going to get into in this discussion.

Yeah, I think to build on that, my take is is maybe a little briefer which is just it's not that good.

Like the show is just not that good.

Like it's got some huge head. We have a podcast that was formly called Dune, And like my repeated feeling when watching this is like if I am bored by this show, who is this show for?

Whom is this show?

Because like, you know, it's just it wasn't there There are bones there, there are great performances, great actors, great production design, high production values.

The actual writing of.

The show is just very clunky and not that good. There's they've kind of got Denny Villeneuve's Dune, like all of the grandiosity of that property stuffed into kind of a like you know, see Tier Star Trek the Next Generation episode and like that's and that's just kind of that's just kind of a bummer. So I hope in season two they just kind of figure out how.

To write better. I guess.

I mean, I'm like, you know, how to make it just a tighter show with less expository theater and like more focused on one story and and just have it be a bit tighter.

Aaboo your thoughts.

You know, I would echo that sentiment as well. I also wasn't the biggest fan of the show. It didn't land with me, and as a Dune super fan, I found a number of things disappointing. I will say there was a lot of Dune lore in the show, which

Difficult place to live in.

Yes, and so to be given the directive that here's the master work upon which you are making the show, make it just as good that is that is a tall order. And so I do feel for the fine folks at HBO who were given that order and did their best to live up to it and in some ways did in other ways I think fell quite tragically short.

My take very similar to all of yours. I think it was I watched episode one and thought, okay, a little bit of a mess, but there's good. I feel like there's something in there, there's bones in there that can emerge. And then really it didn't start turning back towards that those glimmers of optimism until maybe episode five and parts of episode six. It felt, you know, another red flag is in episode two there's like a long sex scene. I think I said this on a previous episode,

Like ten twelve really important year? You gotta this.

Was my This was my biggest problem with the show, right, Like the whole structure of the show was based on the fact that they wanted the Desmond reveal to.

Rock everyone to our core.

Yeah, and it's this classic thing of Hollywood over indexing on surprise. If the show had started with young Valua and young Tula and showed them coming up together, spend three three episodes with them just like you know, Ryan did it amazingly somehow on House of the Dragon. He pulled it off. It's not easy, but doing the flashbacks for episode three we a that an acolyte. It doesn't work. You do not end up connected to the characters.

Yeah, and it's also especially because like young Volley is a great like I love that actress. I thought she was a really great actress. And the scenes, yeah, the young the young counterparts were great, and the scenes in which they're just murking people at like House of the Benny Jesuit is it was was was really exciting, like it was was really really fun, but like you know,

By the way nobody thought to empty the bar of like the ten.

Was there.

The rebellion is very sloppy.

Guys, Why is your spice just upstairs?

Open?

Sister MICHAELA, Why are your robes hidden in the same place as Karen lock your locker?

Yes, this is like this is how like my wife always knows when I've been in the kitchen because all the kitchen cabinets are open and all the cover doors are all the covered doors are ajar, And it's just like, like Karen has this problem bad, Like he comes back from his secret bombing mission is just leaving the.

Bombs, like out On doesn't put anything else. Someone will, Someone will spruce that up.

Not a problem, Jason.

You said this, Uh, when I think we talked about episode four, Jason Concepcion, You and I were doing that episode, and you said something that just stuck in my mind about this show and hasn't left.

It feels like so many of the.

Characters, perhaps outside of Volley and Tula, are passengers in their own story. Things are happening because the play requires them to happen so that the next plot point can happen next, And the characters are just reacting to things happening to them. And you said that, And I can't stop thinking about it, and I can't stop seeing it even in episode.

Poor Mark Strong playing Mark.

Mark.

Mark Strong needs to listen to that Zuck Rogan interview and reclaim the masculine.

Think about we put.

A little bit of more land in this.

He needs to get a gold chain and go bow hunting and cook his own meat that hunt.

I mean, you know what, that's a good it's a good point, h because I think the emperor is interesting. I liked initially as we talked about it, BOO. I liked the idea of exploring this really interesting uh governmental system that they have, which kind of requires a weak emperor, right because he's really a mediator between these very powerful families. He's not supposed to be like he's more of like the commissioner of the NBA than he is like an emperor.

You know, And this brings I think your point. I think your point is exactly right, and it brings up two things. Very First of all, I would really need to see Adam Silver in a house Corrino uniform because.

Indistinguishable from what we got on screen. And thing two.

Like like he's such a weak emperor. It also undercuts the whole rebellion storyline because it's like, what are you rebelling against?

Like this horrible, this horrible tyrant who can't even run his family? Like what is that? What is that? Like what's actually good? What's actually gone?

You should just like, you know, all these people are completely weak, Like it's obviously a weak environment, like you don't need to like bomb the house, the House of the Emperor. You could find other ways to achieve whatever your goals are here. And so it's just it's just deeply unsatisfying all that stuff. But the stuff that is, the stuff that is the house Hearkening story, the Valley

You have to just not be afraid of it. I'm like, come like that. It's just so heavy. It's so heavy handed and literal.

It's like, you know, it's the equivalent of when, if you know, Luke was being talked to on the on the on the Death Star run and Obi Wan says that, you know, use the force, Luke, and Luke was like, oh right, you know, force equals mass times acceleration. I must excrease the speed of my x wing to you know, to to drive more. Force just makes this very literal argument out of this, you know, kind of transcendent science fiction concept.

I found it just very tedious.

Luke, listen to your Midi Chlorians.

Yeah exactly, yeah, exactly.

So, I mean, I I'd love to get your opinion on this because I think to me, one of the most to me, a huge stumbling block for enjoyment of the story was I kind of felt like they went back ten thousand years, but they didn't make the organizations that they are portraying seem as if they were at different early evolution their infancy. They're not called the Benny jesureit, but that's all like the everything else their role. They're

I mean, in general, there's not enough subtlety in what's happening right like's they're supposed to be maneuvering everything from the shadows. And you do have that great moment in episode six where they anerel the computer helps them pick, and that's very cool where they're selecting.

That was really cool.

Yeah, But once they're like in there, they're just like standing there making their motions and like like they're executing their plans in full view of like the lancearrat and stuff going on. It's it's like it's not very subtle. And then you also have this challenge of this giant schism, which I think is Jason. What they're trying to do here, to show that there's this massive schism, and that's what's going to really be the challenge for the Benajeesa. But

Yeah, there's not really a protagonist in this show because like there's like, you know, I there shows like Succession where there's you know, you don't really like anyone, You're not really supposed to like anyone, but like you have sort of an affinity for certain characters because of their quirks or whatever. But everyone's a bad person. This show

But yeah, I think it is a big problem for me.

That the show doesn't have any distinguishing culture from being set ten thousand years ago. This is a criticism that also is leveled against House of the Dragon. Sure, it's like, oh, the show is like, you know, so long ago, but it's not that different. It's not that long ago in House of the Dragon. Thing one thing two, that's a medieval show, and so like history like sort of like

There's none of that in this. They're wearing literally the.

Same outfits that they're wearing in the Villain of movie, just like ten thousand, just ten thousand years ago, like nothing has moved, and I find that a little problematic.

There's there's there's reasons.

That real duneheads could point to about why like it because society stays that static, and Herbert has a lot to say about the staticness of society and what needs to cause great change. I don't really think that's what they're playing with here. I think they're just kind of saying, we have production design already in the books, We're just gonna run it, And I find that disappointing.

Yeah, and I think that speaks to the guys Villanov's shotow go for it. Yeah, I mean to the lower question, You're absolutely right, Jason, Like, yes, stagnation is a is a key theme throughout the Dune books, and it's specifically technical stagnation. Because of the jihad and the war against machines, a lot of technology kind of grinds to a halt, and thus you see the evolution of biology, sisters with capabilities, mentats doing computations, etc.

Etc.

You know, navigators flying ships instead of computers, flying ships through space, that sort of thing. So these these groups and their abilities is a direct response to the loss of tech because of this great war that almost wiped

But also almost everybody seems to have thinking machines, which is a little weird, you know, like the jihad is over, but everyone secretly has one that seems like a that seems like a problem.

Yeah, And another issue that I kind of had with this season was the the fact that again this is maybe a six episode problem, but the fact that it's asking us to wait for future seasons to get more, you know, like a lot of these ideas, like what's happening with the Sisterhood will we're introducing a schism over six episodes tbd, Like what happens next is up to future sea, Like a lot of this first season relies on a second season that you know, up until recently,

Can we talk about Desmond and like our entire journey for Desmond, which is the central mystery, the entire thing, and we go from blue eyes at a distance to blue eyes slightly closer and a shadowy figure off to the side, so we've got a thinking machine and a shot like that was no satisfaction.

Well, and like the the fact that it's just like he's he's able to combust people because there's a nanovirus in his eye is just like like all right, I guess like if that's what you're going for, like you know, I mean, it's just like it's a it's a very wikipedia answer to a mystery, which is just like, you know, it is cool, like I mean, because you know, he's a great actor. It's a compelling performance. He's doing freaky things with his face, like he leaves right back like

I will say, I think that there is a road to make all of this feel much more propulsive and character driven, if you know, there's just something really interesting about it. Or organization that has built itself on the idea that they give the best advice in the galaxy. They know when people are lying, but secretly it's all chat GBT like that is that is giving, Like that's cool, that's funny. The idea that that could be found out by the Emperor or anybody else that they're trying to

With Aniro busted by Lilah, Like, is it backed up to Azure? Yeah?

Yeah, they got they got, they gotta, they gotta. They got a version on a hard.

Disk somewhere they could repoot from. Okay, I And I mean, so they're gonna go to Aracus like a version of this that would be kind of compelling and also work for lower reasons. Is that you know, we know that the Benny Jazerich go to Aracus at some point in time and see the missionary of Productiva, this his you know, this this this lisan Algay myth that a messiah will come and liberate the freemen. We know the Freemen exist

And like it could still be the case, like in the universe that we know later that that was true.

That that actually shocked me, right, like that that idea that they had a thinking machine like that. I had never considered that for the Bena Jezerit, so I actually thought that was one unique and cool idea.

Yeah, then that is lore correct, right boot.

That is more accurate even as far as Frank Kurbert's books go, because when books, I.

Don't think I realized that where was that discussed?

In the end.

It is a single line in a very dense and convoluted book called Heretics of Dune, which is the fifth book series. There's a single reference to the Benny Jesuit secretly have had computers this whole time, and I've been breaking the rules this whole time.

Oh interesting, I honestly love it. Here's my refined elevator pitch for HBO Max doing Prophecy season two.

Ready, let's hear it.

The war against the computers has been one, or has it? There is a surviving AI, and this group, the Sisterhood, believes that they have this genie in a bottle. They're pulling on the string. They're completely in control. They're getting the information they need so they can build up there their organization and take control of the galaxy. But what if this AI is, as a survivor of the old times, is plotting to rebuild itself, and it's got its twins

Mm hmmm, it's good. Colossus the Value Project. I love it. That's a banger. Let's go. I really like it. I like this idea.

And again, I would just start with a page that says Volia and Tula, what are they doing this season?

And that should be eighty to ninety percent of what they're doing.

And if it's working against the AI, great, if it's like trying to figure out the mystery and racis great. But I would I would center just so much of the story on that. I don't need to see any more Carinos. I don't know what they're doing. I don't it, just like none of it matters. None of it mattered, like the princess escaping because of the face dancer. All that nonsense was completely I can't believe that anyone wrote that on a page and like someone agreed to go shoot it.

It's like no one stopped as why does this matter at all? It doesn't.

It didn't matter, and so they could just scrap all of that and focus on this much more directed story that is about Valia and Tula and the AI that they've got to try to figure out is it they are they controlling it and using it for their ads or is it still actually in control.

I love that story.

They should make decisions that make sense, though, right, like instead of being in service to the environs a plot, Yeah right, saying I'm going to operate from the shadows, so I'll go to the center of the universe, the most important planet, and that's where I'm hide. It's like, well, I don't know about that. That doesn't quite make sense.

As the as the low Master, m h. What would you like to see and what would you say to the producers of A of A season two of doing Prophecy just as a as a north Star as a load star for them?

Sure? Yeah, Well before I say that, I do want to say, as much as I love your Elevator pitch, Jason, the books don't treat it that way, and if they continue to work off the Brian Herbert source material, unlikely that we will get. I actually think andrewl is like dead dead. There are no backups on any hard drives or any A W S servers out there, and what we're going to see now is a dorite of Volia's schism within the Sisterhood, which is which is kind of

Throw or here's it, here's an alternative pitch.

I got one the the the Rebel Alliance bar got blown up, right, and somehow Desmonds survived. What if season two is they're opening a new brupub, like a new gastro, the Acundas, and it's like Sandwich the Bear, the Bear meets Doom Prophecy, and it's just like, you know what it takes to open a restaurant in this world where you've got to contend with all these different factions.

Yeah, and where to hide your spice and where to hide your Yeah? Exactly, Yeah, Jason, Jason.

For me, it's almost simpler, Like I would love to know by the end of season two, what prophecy, like, what is it referring to? Like did that get answered to you in any way? Is this Paul?

Is this the god Emperor? Is this Desmond?

Like? What are we doing here? Yeah?

I think that is a to dangle that question that won't be answered for ten thousand fictional years at least. I think was not necessary because you're setting up an expectation of a thing that will surely absolutely not happen in this story at all, right, right, And so I thought that was, you know, kind of a mistake. Give me a prophecy about things that are going to happen in this story, you.

Know, yeah, even if Alia thinks they're happening to this story, we're listening here going out. Nope, that's not it.

I think the move away from calling the show Dune's Sisterhood was a mistake. Like, I think it should have remained being called sisterhood. Should have been about the schism in the sisterhood, should have been about like would have focus in on the value tool of the story. Instead, they set up this mystery box problem, which, like as you say, is solvable to them. So I think I would have done it. I would have just stuck with what you know, because the sister is in lessly interesting.

Tell me tell me more, mother, what are we doing?

Like it's great, like and became a standout like there are the accolades have potential. A lot of the young cast has so much potential in the show. Yeah, and they are and they aren't given the space to cook on screen.

Can I can I ask you about that, Abu, because that's like a this is a big question to me. In the Dune books, the voice is never used in this way. And to me, this was like a big mistake that he made in Dune Part one when Jessica instead of kind of distracting the guards and then getting out, you know, the order to kill yourself. And then now they've taken this like to eleven.

That it's it's just pure like you have on everyone's like you can just make them do anything.

Yeah, So that's kind of.

That kind of undoes the core philosophy of what Frank was trying to communicate in the first place with the voice, right.

Yeah, absolutely, I mean Frank Herbert like famously said that every mother uses the voice on their child, every parent uses the voice on their child.

Right, that is what the is.

It is the tone of voice where you know, I'm in fucking trouble and I need to do what mom tells me right now, and that and the Benny Jesuit in this fictional universe have honed and crafted that to be able to do that on many people, to influence their decisions. But yes, it is, you know, as cool as it was to see Volliott just kind of like walk through a bunch of guards and command them to trip over themselves, that it breaks all sense of the lore in many ways, which, to be fair, like the

To work to watch.

I need to work on my dad voice because I told my six year old to do something the other day and he came he came back with a literal and I quote you need to quit your yappin, which was.

It was so stunned by it took me.

It took me.

It was like the reverse voice.

With a Well, it's been a delight to have you here, as as always, where can we find you Jason and.

H you'll us anywhere you listen to your podcast. Escape Hatch is out next week as this episode is dropping. We have Rosy Night on the podcast Constantine Jason Constant.

What a wonderful film.

Yes, Tilda and Keanu so and many great episodes we got coming up. We've got Tinker Tailor, Soldier Spy, The Godfather, Too Fast, Too Furious, Wow, Too Fast, to Furious, got Father and Too Fast Furious really occupy the same cinematic.

The god Father the next week.

Next week, that's happening.

Okay, well we contained multitudes.

Yes, well, thanks ad for joining us. That's been it for this episode. Bye everybody, Thank you. X ray Vision is hosted by Jason Sepcion and Rosie Knight and is a production of iHeart Podcasts. Our executive producers are Joel Monique and Aaron Kaufman. Our supervising producer is Abu zafar Our. Producers are Common, Laurent Dean Jonathan and Fay wag Our theme song is by Brian Vasquez, with alternate theme songs