You are listening to the she Hulk and D twenty three episode of X ray Vision this week, and just warning, this episode contains lots of spoilers from she Hulk episode five, and we're spinning a lot of theories on the MCU and talking about stuff from D twenty three, so be warned.
Hello.
My name is Jasoncepcion, and welcome to x ray Vision, a croocket podcast where we dive deep into your favorite shows, movies, comics of pop culture. There are so much stuff happening this week, and so we're making things easier for our listeners by releasing two episodes. Episode number one covered House of the Dragon, including our recap of episode four, plus
Ask the Macer. Episode two, which you're listening to, is Marvel with she Hult episode five, plus our analysis of all the announcements from D twenty three over the weekend and what they mean for the MCU. You want to jump around, of course, check the show notes for the time stamps. And joining me today in episode number two for this week is Writer and Comics Encyclopedia. Rosie Night, Rosie, how are you hello?
Oh can't believe? Well? Here again?
We're here again, so quickly Hey, we're here again. Uh, let's talk out. Let's get into the news from D twenty three. Who The D twenty three Expo has come and gone, and it is time to unpack the teasers, the trailers, the announcements and more and what they might mean for the MCU. It is time to irresponsibly make predictions. Let's start with Secret Invasion, the trailer of which was
released on the internet. This Disney Plus show stars Martin Friedman reprising his role as ever Kay Ross, THEIA agent ever k Ross, starring Samuel Jackson as Nick Fury, Ben Mendelssohn as Talos, Don Cheadle as war Machine out of the armor now apparently some sort of government official, and the Department of Defense of some sort, Kobe smallders back as Mary Hill, Olivia Coleman confirmed as Special Agent Sonya Fallsworth, Kingsley Benadere confirmed as Gravic Emilia Clark as we don't
know the secret role and folks, let's talk about it because this first of all trailer is great, real uh, you know, real Captain America and the Winter Soldier vibes every.
War vibe even more like a British spy movie. Yeah, ifi. He had promised that this was going to be way more intimate than the Secret Invasion event, and you can see it's going for this kind of suspenseful, spy thriller vibe.
So the question is how much is this going to take from the Secret Invasion event? So just to jump back, Rosie, would you like to tell the folks what Secret Invasion was?
So Secret Invasion is just like it's kind of hard to talk about how unbelievably impactful it was. Yeah, so it's like, it's okay. It was like June two thousand and eight January two thousand and nine, classic event style.
It was sin It was a series but with a ton of kind of spin offs, incredible creative team on the main which is Brian, Michael Bendis, Meneal Francis, you, Mark Morales, Laura Martin, And essentially the baseline is that you discover that many of the heroes that we assumed were our most famous heroes were actually shape shifting scrolls who had been put in at every different level of heroism and government. And it had the best tagline, which was who do you Trust?
Yeah, And it was just.
It was groundbreaking. It also is one of the best events for spinoffs. We talk a lot about Secret Wars and stuff, but there is an unbelievable Black Panther spinoff that came out of this called Sibacander and Die, which is just so cool, And basically the notion is that you are going to find out which heroes are not heroes and are actually villains, and this just there's so
much fun stuff in this. So this is obviously not something that's going to happen in the show, but I think about this all the time, which is the only person who can tell who the scrolls are throughout Secret Invasion is three D Man with his three D glasses, so he's seeing scrolls and he's like, Yo, that's a fucking scroll and they're like, no, man, that's like Hawkeye.
You know. So this was like, this is the kind of event that I feel like, we don't get to see as many of them anymore, but we we occasionally do. But this reshaped the entire way people saw the Marvel universe and the way that the Marvel Universe saw heroes, which is very relevant to this because another announcement we got with Thunderbolts, so we'll get to that in a minute. But yeah, Scrolls, they're here. They've been here for a long time. And in the comic book event, it was
like nobody's safe. Anyone could be a Scroll and this was a way for them to the Scroll Empire to take over Earth. Now in this we know from what Figi said that it's going to be much smaller scale. But the one thing we can assume is that there is gonna be at least one character, but maybe two who are key to the MCU who are going to be revealed as Scrolls. That has to happen.
That has to happen. Now, before we get into who's a Scroll, I just want to say that like this era of Marvel comics, even starting with like Avengers Disassembled, going into a Secret War, the First Secret War, Annihilation, House of m Decimation, Civil War, Planet Hulk, World War Hulk, and then into Secret Invasion and then Dark Rain, which wasn't really an event more like a wide line wide reboot. It was a really incredible era of Marvel comics where
all the events affected everything that happened. After you talked about what an incredible like jumping off point, Secret Invasion was, because Secret Invasion it created this like air of paranoia in Marvel comics, where all of a sudden, dark rain became possible because everybody was like hold on. The superheroes got in a civil war with each other, fighting each other, and then we find out that many of them aren't even who they say they are. They were actually scrulls,
So how can we trust them? And then turned into this whole thing where Norman Osborne took power and had a secret like Avengers Team that and and so it really feels like as we go into Thunderbolts, that is what we're saying up right now, whatever happens after Secret Wars is going to be, Uh, We're going to see a world in an MCU that is less trustful of heroes coming forward.
Yeah, And something that I think is like really interesting that this kind of ties into that I had never really considered before. Right, So we've talked a lot about how do you build a world that doesn't trust people with powers. It's secret Invasion, it's not it doesn't even have to have the political machinations and all the other stuff that we've already seen them bring in really well with Miss Marvel and kind that we've talked about that
so key to the X Men. But Secret Invasion is your real jumping off point for that, because not only are some of these heroes actually scrolls who've been posing there for years, but also the heroes they have taken over are just like hidden off somewhere and like couldn't even escape. Like that's the worst thing is like, not only are they not the heroes you thought, but the heroes you thought have been trapped. So what kind of heroes are they?
There is a moment in this where we see, you know, bodies in stasis in some kind of room. Olivia Coleman's character and another agent kind of like have found this area, leading us to believe that, yes, over time and over the years, certainly not Tallos's group of Scrolls, but some other more imperialistic, more warlike sect of scrolls, because the Scroll Empire is really big, spanning many many planets, and it would make sense there'll be different factions within that.
This more warlike faction has over time been steadily replacing probably influential people, and we would imagine some heroes with scrolls. The question is for how long. Now there's a moment in this trailer where we see, you know, there's a lot of fun stuff in this trailer, but so Nick Fury says, like, you know, this is my war alone. I'm the last person standing between them. And and then you see like this closet open with this like silver case inside, and the case has like is like on
ice or refrigerator or something. Because they open it, it's like steaming. And so you're led to believe because the voiceover in this image is like, okay, stands between them and what do you have any theories on what is in the case.
I mean, there's so much stuff like in my mind, I have like wild comic book theories. I feel like the safest most MCU bet is some kind of stark tech or some kind of cosmic you know. I don't think they're going to bring the Infinity gems back again, but I feel like it's something with a world ending or world shifting possibility. But I'm very interested to know what you think it may be.
The Infinity formula.
Ah, okay, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes yes so so part of the way in the comics that they explain how.
Nick Fury could have could have served in World War Two in a commando in a commando cadre like as the leader of the helland Commandos and then also be running around like in the eighties, nineties, and two thousands with various other ship beers. Is that he at a certain point in time was injected with this formula, the Infinity forma that just dramatically slows his agent. He still looks like a middle aged man, but you know, he's like ninety nine, one hundred and two whatever, He's very
very old. I So my theory is whatever is in that case is whatever the MCU version of the Infinity format is Nick Fury injected with something? Is is that the case is? Yeah, a lot older than we actually know about. He's been running around for a while. I'm not saying that, but I think that it's That's my thing. It's whatever.
I think that's a very safe bet because that could also be the do x markener that the MCU has been looking for when it comes to the constant struggle of how to cast Magneto and Charles, you know, in the X Men. So I think that the introduction of some kind of infinity formula, some elixir of life, that could be very likely. Yeah, I'm very interested to see what it is that the scrolls could possibly want from
Earth other than to just invade it. Now, the other option that I do think is likely that could tie in, and this is this is pretty out there, but I think it could work. We know that Miss Marvel and Captain Marvel at the Carol Dowvers at the end of the episode, and we learn more about this twenty we'll talk about it in a bit, but we know that the megabands, whatever version that they have of those, are allowed wowing them to switch places. We know that those
are of pre origin the Crew Squirl War. I wonder if there's a version of it where it's some kind of artifact like that that allows that switch that allows them to control other people, because it's very useful as a scroll. So yeah, I'm I'm very interested because I feel like there's things that are so innate to secret invasion, like the super Scroll, that you can't necessarily do without
the Fantastic Four. So I'm I'm very intrigued to see how the MCU recontextualizes this as an introduction to do all those other cool scroll stories that we haven't really gotten to see.
Here's my other potential theory. Super scrolls don't exist yet, but the scrolls find out about Super Soldier or some other type of cereal. Oh, and they think, what would happen if we what if we created super scrolls, our own Super Soldier or scrolls that could then take over the universe.
Maybe maybe that's what's in the box. Maybe it's Super Soldier Serum because Nick knows about that. You know that's and we know that Super Soldier Serum is gonna be it's it's coming back into play, which will also a big time.
My only thing with that is is that then too much su Like have we done? Is it too much Super Soldier Serum at this point after falking in the Winter Soldier, et cetera? Is it too much about the super Yeah, well they keep that.
In the Captain America world and this is something different. Yeah, it's gonna be very interesting. It's it's something that I think all of us as fans, especially if you grew up and you were reading those comics when they came out, have always wanted to see And I feel like this is a very different vision of it. But you know, Winter Soldier is one of the most highly regarded and beloved MCU movies, so I it's cool to see them
going back to this spy genre space. There's some other big questions here as well, like yeah, yeah, I mean Amelia Clark. I have my theory.
Who is she? Okay, tell me? Do you think so?
I think from the beginning, I assumed that she was going to be playing Jessica Drew Spider Woman aka aka the Scroll Emphress. I love it Varank who posed as Jessica Drew. Now from watching this trailer, I would say, if they're gonna do it, they're gonna have to reimagine it. She's agent Jessica Drew of the Department of Damage Control or something. I don't think it's going to be exactly the same character, But as soon as they won, you
don't cast Emila Clark for like a No. One role, right, And as soon as I saw her, I'm just thinking, like, you get to have this jeweling thing where she could be the real Jessica Drew, but she can also be Veranke. It's a jewel role. That's my hope and my kind of my wish. And also they could maybe get around the Sony stuff because she's technically not her in the show. Yeah, because she's a you know, so I think that is that's my that's my big guess, that's my my that's my curveball.
I love that one. I think I'm hoping that it's that. I wonder would they give her the Spider Woman powers at any point?
That's what I want to know. And so this is another really interesting thing, right, I wonder and this I would. I know that they can pull this off if they do it this way, even though it's not necessarily the version that we envisioned. I wonder if we are more You are the one, I believe who first put this theory into my head about Maria Hill being the most
likely scroll. I think that is very true. And I wonder if because of the complexity of how scrolls replicate powers, which in the comics is like a very long ongoing thing you have to explain. I do wonder whether we're going to see scrolls who have infiltrated the government and maybe non powered people more like maybe like a warmst you know, a Rodie or something, or a Sam Even instead of you're more classically like strangely powered superheroes.
Well, let me put this to you. We suspect and I think the D twenty three offerings heavily imply that Thunderbolts is going to come out of secret invasion and it's going to be hashtag we were right. It's going to be a kind of dark rain situation where there's where there's mistrusted heroes that like, we can't trust our
heroes anymore. We need the heroes that follow orders. And you look at that lineup and it's all soldiers, right, so that you know, we want the ones that will do what they're told and will be the be the heroes that fight for us. Now understanding that it would probably be difficult ip wise and maybe a little more complex to have like no Norman Osborne actually be like the main guy at the head of a kind of
like dark reign regime in the MCU. I do wonder one if the Contessa Valentina Defonteine doesn't become like the Norman Osborne figure, the more political figure, the leader of the team but also like a politician. And if she's not a scroll, could she be a scroll?
Yeah, she could definitely be a scroll. In fact, I think because of the massive stunt casting and kind of that big reveal of it being Julie Leuid drefus like I feel that that It's kind of like when you watch a murder mystery, like the first season of Only Murders in the Building, it was easy to guess who the murderer was because you were like, well, this, they probably wouldn't have cast this person if they weren't the murderer. So I do feel like she has big scroll energy. Also,
I think there's a lot of potential here. Something that mcu set up. It was very unusual in Captain Marvel that was very controversial, was this notion as like a certain segment of scrolls being like essentially like space refugees who were not violent, who were not invaders, who were not this kind of maniac or force like they are in the comics. So I think we could definitely see some collaboration both between good and more morally gray scrolls.
So I think it wouldn't surprise me if you had someone like the Contessa who is a scroll it's revealed, but has been working with someone on Earth, someone human, some kind of I would I could not just even comprehend how cool it would be if they managed to build Norman Osborne into this. It kind of maybe down the line, maybe down the line, but no, no, I think the fact that she was actually in the lineup
of the Thunderbolts. That was that's that's that's a huge deal, big and this is like you said, like that Thunderbolts reveal, it's there's some things that we were right about. I had always said they were going to put Buck on that team. There was a very popular Thunderbolts run where Bucky was on the team that people really loved. But it is very interesting because it is this notion of soldiers. It is also a notion of people that the MC you would want us to think are almost anti heroes
rather than villains. Whereas the original Thunderbolts arc, which is just like so outrageous and I still sort of think about all the time that it actually happened, which was the Kerkbooziac, Mark Bagley, Vince Rush was Joe Rosas.
That was craze at the time. It crase this.
New team because the Avengers are gone and they bring the book and they introduce this team and you're like, whoa, these are like crazy ninety charc nineties kind of character designs, like could this really be a new superhero team? How often does this stick? And in the final pages, spoiler Alert from this comic from nineteen ninety seven, but in the final pages you learn that it's Zemo and it's
the Masters of Evil. So to me, I wonder if, well, it's ex members of the Last of Evil, none of whom of the original Thunderbolt ligne up in this team.
So this is my really out there theory is that this lineup is the fake out and that really the team is going to be other people in disguise as those heroes or something along those lines, because that would be very thunderboltish, or that the person who is actually in charge is Zmo, because I think that's the most that's the most kind of shocking non inclusion here.
I would one, I would love that, and two, you know, other than you know, Thanos's, Lackey's and you know, Captain American Civil War, we haven't seen a lot of we haven't seen team on team fights, no, you know, Masters of Evil versus the Avengers, that kind of thing. We haven't seen a lot of that, And it would be really cool. It would just be really cool to have a Thunderbolts team that becomes that is the Masters of Evil or the MC version of the Master Is of Evil.
Either overtly or covertly that then has to go toe to toe with an Avengers team. Yeah, that is like, you know, either on the run because the government and society's turned against them, or who are fighting to clear their names from whatever, you know, whatever, whatever frame the government and the Contessa or Zemo has put them in.
Something that we've seen so many We see it so much in comics that it's almost like so in Batman, the story that you always get is like somebody's releasing the virus. In Marvel comics and specifically like Spidermount of Vengeres comics, somebody has framed the superheroes done something wrong. And guess what, We've seen that in many superhero movies at this point. But I think you're very on point.
I think some people will be getting framed. Something about this that really excites me as well is the MCU is long rightfully been critiqued about the way it militarized the heroes, which was very much to do with the popularity of the Ultimate Tea Comments and the way it was very easy to make a ground level superhero team. Also, the original X Men movies did the same thing with
the way the uniforms were envisioned. It's very exciting to me to imagine a world where you have the militarized government team as the antagonists and you have a grass roots, ground level team of heroes who have to fight against them without the might of stark tech or the might of the US government behind them. That is really cool and could be very very exciting.
I'm super super excited about it. We should just quickly run down the Thunderbolts lineup. Valentina, a Legrity, Fontaine, Ghost.
I was so happy to see that at Man.
And the Wasp. Really cool inclusion Red Guardian, David Harbor, Elena, of course, Bucky Barnes, Wow, us agent. There's gonna be some friction there and okay, okay, fantastic, Okay, So I have a theory here as well.
This is another theory. What if This seems most likely of all my wild theories, my timber But what if? So Ghost, that is very much an empathetic anti hero who was a villain only of circumstance, right Yolena. That is someone who has been tortured and exploited and ended up in a space where they are on a path for redemption. I would say Bucky is the same. I would say Red Guardian, task Master, US Agent. There is a version where we see those three split off as
this more militarized. They will do whatever Masters, masters of Evil, or even just like they will do whatever that Valentina wants to the point where it's shocking the other three. And I feel like there's a world where we see a split in the team because to me, I know that the end of Falcon and the Winter Soldier wanted us to feel like why. I mean, I love why at Russell, so that's why I thought of him. But us Agent, I should say, was like doing something good.
But that motherfucker he was beaded Street with a fucking captain America. She like, he is not an anti hero. He is a villain. He has always been a villain. That is the point of the character in the comics, even though he has obviously gone to more of an anti hero. So I think that that him being next to Bucky, for example, that doesn't exactly make sense to me, or him being next to Ghosts. So I could see this being the team as it begins, but there's definitely a space for a moral split.
I agree with you. I think that you know again just irresponsibly making predictions. I would imagine a circumstance where the Kntessa puts this team together and they go on a mission, and she presents it as one way, here's what the mission is, and here's what we're doing, and here's we're fighting against. That is, in Nick Fury fashion, a lie, but in Contessa Valentine, a defa contained fashion, like a orders of magnitude worse lie than the kind
of lies Fury tells. And what happens is Lena and Bucky Uh figure out, Oh, we're fighting or doing something that we shouldn't be doing that's not just illegal but morally wrong, and we don't want to do this anymore. And that's the kind of thing that causes the split. I'm I'm super excited. I can't wait for Thunderball excited.
Just one last question because I'm just thinking about this. So we assumed that obviously Baronzimo would be in this team, Obviously the Abomination would be in this team. Maybe Sharon Carter because she's power broker. This team has no original Thunderbolts like Songbird, which I think a lot of people thought this would be where she would debut, and it doesn't have those other characters. What does that say to you in your theory mind?
It's I think it says to me you pointed out, which is, at some point there is someone in disguise. There's going to be a reveal here that we're not seeing, a deeper reveal, and so I wonder, oh gosh, I think that that's what it's going to I think there's going to be some kind of reveal here, and we're going to find out that maybe one or more of the original Thunderbolts are masquerading as some of our characters. But who what do you think? You know?
I think you're right. And also something that I always try and remind myself because it was such a fleeting moment. We have seen Black Widow use technology that just changes her face to someone else's face, and we're going to be in a post Scrolls world. So I think the Yeah, I think there's some kind of masquerading, some kind of shielding, some kind of big reveal that's going to make this a bit more like a classical fundable.
Let me ask you this. So there is a at a certain point in time, I forget which run of Thunderbolts this was a a hero slash villain named Cobalt Man joins the team, but actually it was Tony Stark undercover. Are any are any of ore? Are any of these members working under cover for Nick informing for Nick Fury somebody else?
Hundred percent who that is is Bucky Bond. This guy, this guy was just the sidekickoff Captain America like it is. It is absolutely Bucky Bond's. Nick Fury probably sent him in there to keep an eye on the Thunderbox. He said to him, you want to make up your debt. You want to you know, cross these names out of
your ledger. You need to be on this team and make sure it's got to be him, because everyone else I'm like, you know what, they could get tricked, they could have vengeance, they could be offered something that they wanted. But after the journey that Bucky went on with Sam, I just don't see a world where he is there for well, I don't need. I also don't see a world where he would ever willingly. I don't see it used to be part of a government agency again, what was done to him?
Obviously he's traumatized and has been through some really bad stuff. But this is Bucky Barnes prizes his free will and his agency greatly because that was taken from him, right, you know, like that he was not able because of his programming to really trust his intentions, his actions, and trust that like he wouldn't turn into this marauding supervillain. So I think if there is an undercover person who is informing for the heroes, I think you're right that
it would be him. I would add that we were right about a couple of things. One that the name Thunderbolts was in honor of Thunderbolt Ross.
Hasn't been fully confirmed, but the line up kind of teases that God is Theory was absolutely right about that.
And that and we were right that Bucky will be a member of the team because we said that they would that they would, there'd be this movement to be like we want the soldiers who are also superheroes who are going to follow it words and that's it. We let's I want to talk briefly about like this idea that's kind of been out there that people have been writing about that the Thunderbolts is like the MCU's suicide Squad,
which is I get it, I kind of understand. I kind of understand that take, but also that's a that's a take when you don't when you're not kind of like experienced with what those comic book properties are, because they're completely different things.
I think. I think it's one of those things something that we talk about. It's like when you read the comics and you know what the teams are, it's like quite frustrating because they're very they're very different, brilliant ideas. The enforced government task force of heroes who will be killed, of villains who will be killed if they don't do the worst jobs that nobody wants. That's the suicide squad, Thunderbolts, a team of villains pretending to be heroes to gain
the trust of a nation during a power vacuum. That is a really cool, other unique idea. But something that I think, like you said, you can get it. Something we talk about a lot, right, is the cyclical nature of these publishers and the way that they constantly take from each other, they take inspiration, and we've seen it in the films too. We're not going to talk about this very deeply, but I will mention because it's a great example. The final Black Adam trailer came out, looks
really cool. You know what they did. They made doctor Fate Charles Xavier. They gave him the Blackbird, put him in the Xavier Mansion. Wouldn't be surprised if it was Castialoma in Toronto and they made him the X Men before the Marvel had done the x Men. Marvel did the same thing with Thanos. Jim Stalin ripped off Thanos from Dark Side because he loved Jack Kirby, and then Marvel did Thanos before dark Side in the movie.
Yeah, Lobo is Wolverine.
It just goes, It goes on and on and on and on and on forever. Right and this in that way, I can understand why people would theorize that they will become MCU's version of the Suicide Squad, because if it is what we have been told so far, which is very little. If the Contesta is making a government team of heroes from inverted commas villains, then that is very
similar to the Suicide Squad. But to me, I feel like you're missing out if you don't just go and read those comics and see how different they are, Because the Suicide Squad, it's even like the James Gunn the most recent Suicide Squad movie is like so brilliant, and it gives you a great insight into the the way that it's this exploration of exploitation of prisoners and the violence of being a hero and the things that the government would make heroes do if they could control them,
and that aspect of it. I do think we will see in Thunderbolts, but they're very different, guys.
Yeah, at a very basic level, Suicide Squad is our villains prisoners forced to work for the government, whereas the Thunderbolts are villains pretending to be heroes so that they can take over the government.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. That's a great way. That's where's the thing.
The Werewolf Fly Night. Let's talk about the Werewolf by Night, Taylor. This premiere is on Disney Plus October seventh, just in time for Halloween, and man, this looks absolutely fantastic. Directed by Michael Giacchino, written by Peter Cameron and Heather Quinn, black and white horror vibes, supernass. Yes as Jack Russell. The Werewolf by Night, which the day the character named Jack Russell never fails to make me.
The last thing about it, I think it was Jerry Comway who came up with the name Jack Russell. And in tomorrow's which is this Unbelievable fansy back issue seventy one, he was asked about it, and he did say it was unintentional. Jack Russell was if it was intentional, it was subconscious and he never thought about it as an intentional pump, which I just like, I don't think funny.
I don't.
Yeah, how can you believe it? You can't believe it, But that's what Jerry says. Jerry, come on the show, tell us about Jack Russell. We need to know, Okay, Jack Russell one of the best werewolf names of all time. This looks so weird. I mean, we are huge fans of Michael Giaccino. Hre unbelievable composer, so I'm very excited to see him bring his talents to the visual language
of the MCU. Also, we get the new banner here, which is the Marvel Studio special presentation, which is kind of this like seventies almost like boogie Nights looking thing, which I love because it's like, well, it's like really campy. Also probable confirmation here. I'm pretty sure that Laura Donnelly is playing Elsa Bloodstone, another massive Marvel horror character that we were all really sure that she would show up in.
This Elsa Bloodstone who descends from a family of monster hunter and she's she's always kind of like hunting these dark monsters throughout the history of her appearance in the MCU. I do you think this takes place like here's I wonder if this doesn't take place in the fictional nineteen seventies of the MCU.
I'm very interested to see so, she Holp. We cannot confirm this. We will be Oh, we will be able to confirm this tomorrow, but right now, I cannot confirm this. This is just something that we have been thinking about a long time. It seems like tomorrow this week, she Hope is going to confirm the notion that comic books exist in the MCU as the way of telling stories. I wouldn't be surprised if because of how stylistic this is, this is a fictionalized version of something that happened in
the MCU. It looks like are you or maybe it's some kind of moonlight situation where it's somebody's version of it. I love this notion of this special presentation as if it's not one hundred percent cannon. But it's so stylistically different to and it doesn't look You could show that to somebody and they and tell them it's not Marvel if you don't show them that. It's really abstract. It's very universal monsters, it's all shadows, it's Cabinet of Doctor Caligari,
like German expressionism. It's really strange. I did not think they were going to go this hard with it. Also something that's very cool, these comics, brilliant comics. We're black and white. The Marvel Horror comics were black and white too, Ma Dracula, well Off by Night. So this is also very cool way of bringing that to life. And to have else a bloodstone, I mean, that's just a huge
addition to the character. Even though she's like a relatively new character from like two thousand and one, she is a massive part of the Marvel Horror world. And was I right. I don't know if I ever specifically predicted this, but I have been manifesting it. This trailer does feature man Thing, Marvel's giant sized man Thing, the best name of any character ever, one of my all time favorite characters again part of that swamp thing, man thing. Those
those are the two comparisons, another famous one. They're Doom Patrol and X Men. Just remember that one, guys, because it's going to become very relevant when the X Men come into the MCU. But yeah, man, thing, this is Marvel Horror is here. How does it play into the wider MCU is the big question.
That's the big, big question. And we oh man gosh, I am very excited to find out the shee Hilk mid season trailer has arrived. Not that we needed it, but we got it, and folks, she Hill continues to be super fun. Yeah, it's great.
And Dead Evil's going to be in it, which we kind of knew, but this is like more confirmation in case you were worried because he hadn't turned up after four episodes, but Matt Murdock is going to be in Dad Evil. Good for Matt Murdock. He was also there talking about Dead Evil born again at d twenty three, saying some very sweet things.
Love that very exciting, very exciting. Uh. Next up, Captain America New World Order has some of the cast confirmed. First of all, of course, Anthony Mackie returning to Sam Wilson, Captain America. Folks, the Leader is back.
We've been waiting.
We've been waiting for the Leader to return. We've been saying, just he's gotta come back. At some point we were wondering we was gonna be she Hulk. Well, folks, it's going to be Captain America, New World. It could still be she could still be shed.
But he's back.
We were right.
He's coming back with his big old head.
Another looks like long Head.
We are on the DC Marvel rip off train today because this motherfucker looks like Sinestro from Really But yeah, Sammuel Stens is the Leader. Tim Blake Nelson is such a fantas plastic character actor, so I'm just really excited to see that.
This will also be the debut of Sabra, the Israeli superhero played by Shira has Karl Lumbley as Isaiah Bradley, the.
First Captain America. That's pleased absolutely in the canon because they don't mention it in the MCU but in the.
Comics, and Danny Ramirez as the Falcon the New Folk.
That is a huge That's that's a really big bit of news.
I feel like I agree. I agree, because we didn't really get a lot of We didn't get a lot of Joaquin in the show, and we certainly didn't get a didn't get any kind of inkling of disabilities. So this will be very this is going to be this is huge, This is a big deal.
Yeah, we've talked a lot about the Superstar just sermon today already, and I think this is this casting announcement proves to me that Captain American New World Order is going to continue the power broker esque storyline from Falcon and the Winter Soldier, and it's obviously going to be about super soldiers because you have Isaiah Bradley, who in the MCU was one of the first people who was tested on with the super Soldier Seerum, but in the comics was the first Captain America who was out on
the field in the Yeah, just one of the best comics ever read, ever written. They recently actually republished it for the first time in like ten years, so go and see it. Truce, Red, White and Black. Yeah, just absolutely brilliant. And having Isaiah there, having the leader there who we suspect might be the one who's trying to get she hulks Blard, which in this case is connected to the Super Soldier syreum because in the Incredible Hulk movie from two thousand and eight, we learned that Bruce
gets his powers much like the Ultimate's comics. Thank you producer Chris for that one. That's where he gets his powers. Is trying to replicate the super Soldier serum, but instead of using gamma ray, instead of using Vita radiation like the original method, he changes it for gamma radiation. Bad pan.
So this is a super Soldier Serum as story. Now, the interesting thing is in the comics, Sober is a mutant in this is she going to get her powers from the Superstldier serum or is she going to be a mutant.
It's interesting, you know we've okay, we've got obviously Kamala con is a mutant, right, Okay, we have that. The question is, and you know, we could argue about whether her powers are are you know, what portion of her powers come from mutation, what portion come from the.
Bank also have naturally occurring powers.
Wanda also has naturally occurring powers, But who is going to be the first Like like they are a mutant, their powers are derived purely from mutation, and we know that's what it is. Everybody knows what's what it's that and there's no secondary factor like the ability like magical powers, which again Wanda is part of humutation is her ability,
her affinity for magic. But it is something else, is a kind of inherent power that is that resides in their own DNA and isn't something that is like amplified by an outside power source. And I do wonder will it be sobeer, will she be a mute? It's a good question. I don't know the answer. Other news, khe kwon as a TV agent in Loki season two.
I feel like I love this because they were like, he is a TVA agent. I'm sorry, after after everything everywhere all at once and prior to his inevitable oscar win that is coming. He is not just playing a TVA agent. That is something major character is something else. And also the TVA is obviously going to become a big part of this, not just because we got Kang stuff down the line, but even in wellwalf by Night
there were TVA agents with their time batons. So this is a very big part coming and I was so happy to see this. I love Kihae Kwon. I love everything ever all wants. I love Aniana Jones, I love the Goonies icon Happy He's there?
Uh, is there any Is there any world in which he plays? He's like a He's like a hero undercover that eventually is revealed as a hero.
Though, is if there is any justice in the world and they know what they have by being able to cast him, I think that's what it has to be. He doesn't. You don't just cast him as a as a TVA agent. You cast him as someone who's there with a motivation that becomes an ally to Loki, who at some point you reveal has powers or some kind of longer running space within the MCU.
Up next, Matt Shackman confirmed to direct It's the Fantastic Four movie. No casting announcement, no trailer, no nothing, just that Matt Schackman will be the director. Congratu, Yeah, congrats
to him. According to Justin Croll on Twitter, quote, Feigy for the most part does not want to make big casting decisions without getting input from his director, which I think seems whyse Of course, there were a ton of rumors flying before d twenty three, but we'll wait to see what emerges from there, but just terribly exciting that we are on the road to a Fantastic four movie.
Of course, we saw the logo some months ago, but this is super exciting new Wakanda Forever Black Panther footage and we get an idea of what the plot is about. Here from Clyder is a description quote in the exclusive clip shown to the audience, We see Queen Ramonda arrive at the United Nations with a group of men. They sit, The men push their microphones down, spotlighting the Queen's presence
in the room. Are represented from the US starts to complain about the fact that Kana has not shared their vibranium with the world, and a French representative similarly speaks up, saying that vibraanium has the potential be a weapon of mass destruction because the material can't be detected by metal detectors. It has to be shared for the sake of global security. But despite these dramatic declarations, Ramona makes very clear why what Condims do not trade vibranium and never have, never will.
It is their policy to never trade vibranium under any circumstances, not because of the danger of vibranium, but because of the dangerous potential of outsiders using this material, and so here again, one thing that's extremely clear, you know, it's been kind of I think one of the kind of criticisms or at least, you know, complains that people have had, is like, what is the what is the MCU about now? What phase we are and what is the general direction?
The general direction is as we're seeing with Armor Wars, as we're seeing with Wakanda Forever, as we're seeing with Secret Wars into Thunderbolts, is all of this stuff is out there. The armor Tony Stark's armor is out in the work world, Vibranium is leaking out, and governments are concerned about it. People that are uncontrollable have superpowers now and now is like the reaction from the rest of the world towards the revelations that have happened in the
previous phases. I think this is really a super smart take on a Black Panther sequel.
I think it's really really clever. I'm very interested to see the way they go with this, because the whole point of Wakanda originally was like what if this space existed that had never been colonized, that had never been destroyed, that had never had its resources drained and stolen, you know, so to them put them in this position where exactly that is has potential to happen, and it will also
we know that in this world T'Challa is dead. We know that that will be happening Name in Black Panther two, that he will die. People see it as a power vacuum, and that is going to encourage Wakanda to make the tough decision of who the next Black Panther will be.
I wonder what triggers name Or's attack on Wakanda. Is it like is he a hired gun? Is somebody like did you like did they contact him and be like go in there steal a vibranium?
Like I think. I think what it's going to be is like if if people know about this one secret place that has vibranium, that has these resources, then are they putting other secret places at risk? Like we could definitely also have had a situation where Naymoor and to Challa knew each other and had made a vow to never reveal the secrets of where they come from. You know,
so I'll be very interested to see. Also, this is old from an old leaked description that was to do with the casting, but there was also notions of somebody who was looking for not only vibranium, but they were going around searching out almost secret locations, including Antarctica, which is one of the other places you can find vibranium,
which is where the Savage Lands are. So I wonder if it's going to be this notion of the world has realized, sort of like what happens in the in the Zeros x Men movies, but in terms of people, the world has realized there is a segment of society that they have never seen. Yeah, and if that is the case, then they are going to want the things that they can get from that society. So yeah, I'm
very interested to see this. I'm also really interested to see like how re Re ties in like iron Heart, because that's a character we love so much, and it's clear that she is going to be a major part of Black Panther, which is coming out before iron Heart, so it'll be interesting to see how retroactively then get her own show spinning out of Black Panther, rather than meeting her first in the TV show.
There was a sizzle reel from Ironheart featuring a logo reveal Dominique Thorne will be Ruy Williams and we get the antagonist. The reveal of the antagonist Anthony Ramos as the Hood so Cool which has been confirmed by Kevin Figley and Ryan Cooler. So the Hood Parker Robbins is he's just like a small time criminal who like mugs a demon and it takes the demon's hood and the
hood is magic. And next thing, you know, through this and through the ability to wield magical powers, now he becomes like a crime lord, like a big time magical mashup mafia figure who becomes who was for a time during the Dark Rain days like a real mover and shaker at like the highest levels of villaindum like in the in the Marvel comics.
Yeah, and something that came out of this as well was this notion of science versus magic, which you kind of touch on that. So I think if you look at the way that these things are going, we have doctor Strange who's now a three eyed cosmic magic man in space with clear and then we have the Wakandans dealing with having the most high tech science and technology
in the living known universe. Probably. I think that that clash that they're seeding in iron Heart of this notion of science versus magic is going to become a major
thing going forward. Another thing, we don't have a lot of info about it because they didn't show they didn't tell us about it much, but they showed a Marvel's trailer, and I just want to touch on it because there was something that was really interesting in the trailer, which is apparently it's not just Kamala and Carol who are switching places, it's also Monica, and it's the three of them throughout the movie that are allegedly going to be
switching places to do with the bands and their powers. So I think that that is very interesting and that is apparently going to be the major conflict. So I'm very excited to see that trailer whatever they decide to release it.
Now, when I think of the Hood, I immediately think about his relationship with Madame mask Yep, and I wonder, who is a masked super villain, kind of like a super soldier type super villain, the daughter of Count Nefaria, and I want and I wonder if they would bring that into it, that would be pretty much well.
Also as well, if you think about it. In the Hawkeye comics, they have the reveal that Madam Mask is connected to Kate Bishop and we might have already met a version of her. So, seeing as this is another TV sh I'll be very interested to see if they kind of tie that together, especially because really, if they are going to do a Young Avengers will likely be the Iron Man analogue like Iron Lad was in the original Young Avengers lineup, So I'd be very interested to
see how that connects the Hood. And now the character looks very similar to DC's Hood, otherwise known as the man who had become the Joker in the old Killing Joke. Well, they're really getting the duality today.
I know. Last couple of MCU things. Charlie Cox says of Daredevil Born Again that this is whether it's a reboot or not or what they're calling it, it's a season one, not a season four. So what I took that to mean is they're going to pick and choose the things that they like from the Daredevil Netflix series and those are going to be part of his backstory, and then other things that they don't like. They're not necessarily like the Defender, Like did he ever join the Defenders?
Probably not, you know what I mean? But did he fight the Kingpin?
Yes? This is another thing where we were kind of I would say we were right because this was we basically thought they were gonna do what they did with the Offrio, where they reimagine him for the MCU, they make him more super heroic, they make his powers different, and be very interested to see how they visualize Dead Evil's powers when he re enters the MCU in a more significant way.
And then and then Armor Wars was just it was already confirmed, but now they're reconfirming.
It because you worried after the timeline.
Uh. And this, yeah, this feels of a piece with Secret Invasion with Thunderbolts, like all like obviously we see Don Chietell in Secret Invasion. It'll be fascinating to see how that stuff all ties together. And it really feels like at least for some of these things, uh, you know, Secret Invasion, Thunderbolts, Armor Wars were kind of forever you know the thing that people were kind of saying about Phase four, it feels like fragmented, what's it about? Where
are we going? It feels like there's some real thematic cohesiveness to to the stuff that has been announced and the directions they're taking. Yeah, Star Wars News Mando season three trailer, Folks, I love me some Mando.
It's the good stuff. Everybody loves the baby.
Where's the baby? Let me see the baby, Get the baby back. How's the baby's training going? I don't care as long as the baby is involved. Give me the baby. Notably, we're gonna see a lot more Mandalorians this time around. We're gonna see a bigger cadre of Mandalorians as Mando learns more about the culture that he comes from. Uh, and the baby is there. The baby is there, folks.
We're gonna reunite. There's gonna be it's gonna be good. It's gonna be it's gonna be good. Important baby.
Grief Cargo having a massive come up. He's wearing like beautiful robes.
However in that role that is like, see, it's gonna be good. It's gonna be good. You know, we'll see it next year early next year will probably come along much sooner than we thought.
And then the final and or trailer has been revealed. The there are screeners out now which I haven't seen yet, but I'm excited to watch. Starring Diego Luna of course as Cassie and Andorge and Viva Riley is man Mathma. I love what a heron. Wow, another come up, another character that could have.
Been lost to the footnotes of history but instead became a major player, legend and a hero.
And and Forrest Whittaker repriasing his role as sage Era lies. Here's the thing about Sager. I've said it many times. They'll say to him, I think he I don't think he gets the credit he deserves. Did he go to did he go too far at times?
Yeah?
I think so. He was fighting space Nazis, and I will say that, you know, uh, extremism in defense of space democracy is no vice. And Forrest I love his performance that Sagerera was like out there by him saying before anybody was like, oh, the Empire, we need to do something. Saw Guerrera was saying, we need to do something with the Empire. We need to get together, we need to fight them. We to stop them, because they're not going to quit. They're going to keep expanding, They're
going to keep putting their boot on people's necks. There's no place in this galaxy you can run from them. We need to fight. And I'm delighted that Sagerera is back in my life. So we're going to see some original Clone Troopers. I'm excited to start watching this, very excit. Tales of the Jedi trailer dropped, folks. Good. I don't know what he's making.
An animated show me about all the characters that you like, Doku are So it's gonna be six original shorts allegedly is what they're calling it. I don't know what that means, but I know we're gonna watch it because we love Rebels, we love Clone Wars, we love the Star Wars animated series.
That is knows what he's doing.
That's why he's now basically in charge.
Yeah, watching my reaction to this was good. And then oh, things of huge note. We must say this.
This was such a big I can't believe they like slid this one in at the last minute. Everyone has been talking about for like five hundred years.
So anybody who listens to this and listened to us on various other podcasts know that we love Rebels. You know, I think it's I think you could argue that it's the best Star Wars actually that there is is Rebels definitely the.
Best final episodes of any TV shows.
They just nail it. They absolutely nail it.
The landing, they nail it.
They nail it, and uh, you know, one of the main characters is young Jedi padawan Ezra Bridger, who at the end of the run of Rebels, we are unsure what happens to him? Are where he is? And the Ahsoka series of course is coming and we it was announced that Emanis Fondi will join the Ahsoka series as Ezra Bridger. This is huge news.
This is what the fans have been waiting for.
This is we we people have been clamoring for us the Ahsoka series being where is Ezra? Literally find Ezra.
Maybe the most fan casted role, absolutely in Star Wars, but maybe in general. Like the fact that Ezra fans are here, They're loud, they love him and they right to do so. And yes, this is very exciting. I felt like I was laughing because I felt like this should this was like up there with any of the other casting, but it was kind of hued in. So yeah, this is this is really big and I'm very and I mean it is like picture perfect casting. Oh when you see the two of them together, you just wow.
It's absolutely great and fucking I can't wait.
I can't wait. I'm so excited that they're gonna do this. It's really crazy that they're gonna do this.
It did it. It didn't feel you got to remember, right, especially with Rebels, And I know we could do a whole mini series just on. But like when Rebels came out, like people did not like the animation style. It took people a long time to get into it. They felt like it was basic compared to Clone Wars. They also didn't like that it was new characters. It is so influential and so brilliant, and rewatches so well, and it's such a fantastic piece of sci fi storytelling and Star
Wars storytelling and animation and cartoon. It's it's so good. And it feels absolutely bonkers to be in a world where there are Rebels characters being adapted.
It's so crazy. I mean, it is truly nuts that is happening. Not to mention that was like some of the best Darth Vader stuff, you know, post Anakin Darth Vader.
His reunion with Ahsoka is like is spine chilling stuff, and particularly you know, first season is good, and then they absolutely nail the ending of their first season and then if you haven't watched it, at least get to the end of season one and then I guarantee you if you like the Star Wars, yeah, seasons two, three, four are just gonna be like going into hyperspace speed.
That's what you don't feel like because it's just great stuff, emotional storytelling, group of characters that you care about, real like heartbreaking steaks, fun droids, incredible adventures, and just really really great Star Wars st Droids. That's great Droids, all Time Droids, Topper and All Time Droid and so very very excited that we're continuing the story in the Ahsoka series. Bad Batch Season two coming out January fourth, twenty twenty three.
Great and some Young Jedi Adventures. Casting announcementstermal Avery Junior, Emma Berman as Ky Bright Star, and Nash Durango. Lots of great Star Wars stuff, man, a lot of content, just lots of news. Up next she Hill episode five. You've been asking for it, You've been wondering where it is. You've been saying, I have nothing to carry my groceries in while folks get excited because x ray Vision is launching its first ever merch collection and it's available now
at the Crooked Store. House of the Dragon is hear, Lord of the Rings, Rings of Power is here. That means fantasy is back. Has it ever gone anywhere?
No?
Fantasy is still here, but now it has revealed itself to you, and this merch drop is all about celebrating the return of some of our favorite fantasy series. Grab a tote or tea featuring an illustration by artist and comic book colorist Felipe Sobrero at Crooked. We're super fans of voting, so as always, a portion of the proceeds from every order in the Crooked Store will go to Vote Writers, the leading organization focused on voter ID. Head to Crooked dot com slash store to check it out.
We're stepping out of the air lock and into the courtroom for Sheehl episode five titled Mean Green and Straight Ported to These Genes, written by former Hysteria co host Danish Schwartz and directed by Anuvalia Danas Schwartz, who's a wedding I recently attended Congratulations once again to Dana and Ian. Let's start with our recap. Jennifer Walters has a problem, and it's a sizable one. It's a big one with a big social media following and really really good branding.
It is Titanya, the super influencer who Jen folded up in episode one. She has trademarked the Shee Hulk name and is releasing a line of branded products lip plumpers, beauty oils, some kind of shake for butts, and suing Jen to stop her from using her own name. It's time to get ligitious, folks. Meanwhile, Nicki and Pug hash
out a deal. Niki will stand in line with Pugs so he can get two pairs of Iron Man threes, which is a nice payoff from the joke setup when Jen was surfing the internet and it was one of those one of those little blurb stories that it was like just a picture of the Iron Man threes above
man with met clause fights in bar. Some nice little payoff there, and Pug in return, will take Nikki to his costume connect, his drip broker in order to upgrade Gen' strip, which is currently very very dry in the midst of a historic drought. Desert like very arid not dripping. Now, getting to the drip Broker involves buying knockoff Avengers merch in the back room of a Boba cafe and then pulling rank falsely claiming that Jen is Avenger. But you do what you gotta do, and eventually they do get
to the secret headquarters of this costume fashion designer. Back at GLK and H, mister Holloway is annoyed because Jen lost control of her name and considering that he hired it be the super green face of the firm superhero Laud division, that is bad. He assigns the trademark case to Gen's colleague Mallory. Book Mal immediately goes on the offensive, saying we need to counter suit, We need to be aggressive, but also you need to not look like Joseph a Bank in the courtroom, and you need to get a
better wardrobe. Nikki is on it. She gets Jen a meeting with Luke, top tier costume designer who makes ready to wear combat suits for a variety of secretive clients. Case goes to court and there are some early setbacks, but Mallory then calls Gen's match or dates to the stand where they testify that Jen's been using the name she Hulk on a regular basis, proving that there is a chain of ownership of the name she Hulk by
Jen Walters. Case close Gen wins. Back at Luke's, Jen collects her form fitting and fashion forward superhero ware that we actually don't get to see her wear yet. I guess that's a reveal for the next episode, and we get a glimpse of Luke's work for another client. It
is a yellow Daredevil helmet. Let's talk about Oh God, First of all, really cool that apparently so in the comics, the yellow suit is first like Daredevil wore the yellow suit originally and then went to the and went to the red suit, which then became the iconic suit, and you wore most of the time kind of like you know, sort of like Wolverine who had the yellow and blue with the little kind of like pointy details on the shoulder suit first and then went to the brown and
tan suit, which then kind of became iconic for most people. I love that it was Luke that was like, we need to apparently, let's upgrade your fashion and get you the yellow suit.
I need to ask you about this though, So yes, you know we talked with the D twenty three thing about what you know, good old Matt Murdoc himself, Charlie Cox said, he said, this is a season one, not a season four. So do you think oh, interestingly his first costume in the MCU. I don't think so. I think you're on the right track. But you make such a good point about the yellow suit and its origins, so maybe he did have the other suit. And this
is that Luke I gave him that good reference. And this is kind of the also, you know something that you brought when we were prepping for this. This means Dad Devil has changed Taylor's Yes, we had men Potter before in the in the.
Ex super villain Melvin Potter. I. I here's my take. I think that I agree. You're absolutely right. And but one thing we did say in that conversation about season it's a season one, not a season four, is that we think that they're gonna just that means they're gonna pick it.
Definitely already Devil. He's already Daredevil one.
And two.
He's already Dared Devil, because how would he even.
Get the appointment? Luke is yeah, yeah, yeah, Luke is Luke doesn't just work with anybody, and he wasn't gonna work with Jen until they were like, oh, she's an Avenger. So clearly Matt has made a reputation for himself as an active superhero already for him to even get the appointment, so we think he's working as daredof, which means oh yeah, yeah, and he's got the suit that he's already been using.
And like you know, super producer Souldiers pointed out, he catches the brick in No Home, so he's using those powers. He's living the life. Yep, he's he's gonna But yeah, I love that they because they're kind of rebooting, it makes a lot of sense to have the yellow costume and Luke is obviously a steezy guy. This is also a very fun deep cut. This is pure she yock.
Like there's probably no other show where they would introduce the Wrecking Crew, right, Like that was so fun and so this is very similar because Luke Jacobson is like a fashion mogul, but he's been in literally like three comics and he was in this. Really, this is like, this is the stuff I've actually been waiting for Marvel and the MCU to get into, which is the comics that Marvel made that were not necessarily straight superhero comics.
So he's from Dakota, North which is like this super weird aes kind of like spy ish comic like Private Eye, very black widow looking, but it's not black widow. And Luke Jacobson is just like this funny fashion mogul. But what is really cool is he was created by Tony Salmons but also by Martha Thomas's who is like one of the premiere female comic book journalists. So it was very cool to see her get a shout out in
the Creator Thanks. And this is very fun because it does what the MCU does best, which is this is taking a character whose name is important in the comics, but who doesn't necessarily have a built out world. And now Luke Jacobson, I would say if it had just been She Hulk, who, by the way he teases she, she asks for a suit, like a fancy lawsuit, and he said he made us something extra, so we can
assume that's probably the purple and white. That's what I thought, right, because it was a little bit shorter too, and I think, sure, She Hulk, that's a big hero ironically like much more a list probably than a lot of the heroes that began their MCU in Phase one at the time. But I think with the Daredevil costume, we can assume that Luke is going to be like the force of who is making the suits for the heroes from here on out. Now Stark isn't around and we're getting more grassroots heroes.
I agree with you, And I also think just to go back to what what do we think Daredevil has been daredeviling this whole time? Why would he get a suit on the West coast exactly? So like that, Okay, he's gotta have been he must have been doing it previously. Okay.
So if that's the question, why would he get a suit on the West coast? Then this ties into one of our theories from earlier, which was about how in the Charles Saul Run when Jennifer needs help with this misterious case, she goes to see Matt, who is currently
in San Francisco. So I wonder if that if we're gonna see Matt on the West coast, obviously, if he's in Cheeholk, it's unlikely she's gonna fly to New York for it, And it's nice to see the West Coast being represented in the MCU aside from Tony's hilarious Malibu like Thunderbirds mansion. So I wonder where we're going to see.
Oh yeah, and of.
Course ant Man, which by the way, could connect to this Dared Devil theory. So yeah, I'm very interested to see where we're going to see Dared Devil pop up. Is it just going to be something where they meet each other in the in Luke's offices? Is it going to be like a real play by play.
Let me ask you this, do they so? In the comics the Charles Sewell Run Wonderful Charles Sewellrun Those a the kind of main plot is about a case that Jen argues against Matt that we won't spoil because it's really good and if you ever want to read it, definitely read it. But they end up on opposite after hanging after having a wonderful day out hanging out, they end up on opposite sides of the courtroom for each other. Do they argue cases against each other? Do they argue at So?
That would be so good, that would awesome because we see it happen.
That would be really rad and it makes me wonder like what the case could possibly be. But I think that would be really cool.
Also, I do think. Look, I know, I know that Tatiana and this is playing this like she's like this lawyer. She's obsessed with her work, like Jen is is very The dichotomy between and juxtaposition between Jen and Sheehock is obvious and there for a reason. But I I know that Charlie Cox everyone loves sexy, sad, dead evil who's been being but I do, and he is very handsome
in that role. I love it too, It's great. But I also could easily see a world where when him and Gin when we see them to get like reconnect, they have met before, they have possibly dated before, which is very in the comics, but both in their non hero forms, and then that would make a really interesting conflict to go into that lawsuit together.
Honestly, both very similar in the sense that they are work hard, play very hard kind of characters. Except you're right, Matt has that like catholic sadness all the time, where he goes everywhere he goes, it's just sad, whereas Jen is definitely the more gregarious and outgoing and like and big personality. Okay, So at the end of this episode, Jen wins her case and we see that Arthur was there for it, giving a kind of moral and emotional support. Arthur who she went on a date with in the
previous episode, which I had. I had a thought after the end of the previous episode, and I wanted, I want to see where you're at with it. So Jen and Arthur have a wonderful date. They go have dinner and then some drinks, and then they go home and things go well and they are intimate. And then at the end and then the next morning, Jen comes down, she's in gen form, and Arthur is I think. He says he's surprised, and is clearly like whoa you know? And then leaves and it's a week. It's like a
discordant note. He was clearly he was clearly a little confused at this. What is as a superhero or a person who changes form, what is Jen's duty to inform a partner about her alter ego. I found myself wondering about this, not that Jen necessarily was in the wrong, but it is definitely an emerging area of like superhero morality, because clearly her partner again was confused by it, and it had me thinking like, should Jen have said, Hey, by the way, I am also I also look like this.
This is also what I look like.
I found this to be. Yeah. I think this is one of the most interesting moral quandaries that the show had introduced, intentionally or unintentionally, because it is played where we are always seeing things from Jen's point of view, so the angle of seeing it there is oh, like, he likes this side of me, but not this other
side of me, and that hurts. And in this, you know, in the lineup of terrible men she went on dates with, even there in the courtroom, he makes a point of saying, sheehowk is amazing.
I really like she.
But he also says Jen is not my type, you know. And I think that is very notable and also a succinct way of of setting up the problem of this, which is Jen is your type because Jen is sheehowk. But esthetically Jen is not your type. And did Jen
make it clear? Because she she made that. The whole lawsuit this week hinges on the fact that she made a match of account as she Holped, she presented herself as she Holp, not as Jen what is the moral the morality around that of then presenting this other side of yourself. I think it's I think it's baby steps mistake on Jen's part, agreed, but I don't think so.
I don't think Arthur is particularly in the wrong. I don't think he's shocked because he actually asks who Jen is, so he obviously didn't know.
I think it's reasonable to I think his feelings are reasonable in that moment. I think that the main thing. I think you're right, it's baby steps in a mistake by Jen. At the same time, like, there's no like unlike the the as Guardian Elf who we met earlier in the episode, there's no there was no will to deceive. Jen was not trying to deceive anyone. Now. I think she as a person who is just getting used to and processing the fact that she has this alter ego
now that is part of her self. There's also the fact that she is probably has not yet grappled with the fact that one she's a public person now but as she Hulk, not as Chen She's done numerous TV appearances, but as she Hulked talking about being she Hulk, whereas her Jennifer Walters persona is just like a workaday, anonymous person without a public profile, Unlike Tony Sarker, Steve Rogers some of these other heroes where people would reasonably know
who they are, It's reasonable to assume that the people who went on a date with she Hulk would not know or immediately connect she Hulk to gen or even know how to start. How do you google it? If you because it's not been a long time since Jenna has been Sheeholk. If you googled she Hawk, would Jen Walters come up? It's unclearly, I think.
I think because of the first episode where we saw where Jen's first public foray as Shee Hawk was as Jennifer Walter's in the courtroom, and then she transformed and fought Titania, I don't think it would take that long to google it. But I do think the point of the men going on the dates was they want the fantasy of Shee Hulk, So would they google it?
Now?
I will say I did because I'm I am quite heavily on Arthur's side, and I do think that this introduces a very interesting moral quandary that I would love to see explored more about, Like the notion of how you present yourself and such. But I will say there is a quote from the date where she does tell him right in the middle of the lobby in front of everyone. I had to transform. It was so embarrassing. So she establishes there that is at least a transformation.
The question is did she do enough?
I feel like dynasty there, but like I also don't necessarily think he's just some shallow jerk because he like professional, who she went who he did go on.
A date with. I think they clearly from the very moment that Arthur pears on the screen, are presenting him as, Oh, this is the good guy. He's interested in her. He's a kid, he's a child's that you know, I e. He's a generous, giving person. He's like, wants to know about her life. He's not just out here talking talking talking over her. And he's a kind, good looking, nice guy. And I agree with you. Again, I don't think Jen
was trying to trick anyone. But I do think the question is did she do enough to really let him know completely who she is? Because yes, she mentioned a transformation, but is that enough? Because you again he was like, wait, who are you like? It's completely different person. Yeah, and I think again, I just think it's a really I think it's an interesting thing to think about.
I think you're you brought it up as a really good topic where you were like, this is an emerging problem that.
We write, this is an emerging issue.
And I think we will see more of it explored. We got the most extreme version, which is the light elf who is outwardly deceiving people and committing identity fraud against Meg thee Stallion. But like, this is this is the These are the slice of life, day to day issues that you have to navigate if you have an alter ego, especially if it is an alter ego that is based on transformation and changing the way you look. And we're going to see more of that as we
get mutants, as we get scrolls. So I'm very interested to see that, and I was very interested to see Arthur be.
Brought back at all.
I didn't necessarily think that was something that was going to happen. So maybe there will be some kind of conversation or continuation of that art.
That's how I felt is that there is going to be They're going to have a conversation about this, right, because why else have that moment where you know, there's a look that's shared when the case is kind of over where he kind of like they share this moment and it feels like there's more to be said, which I think is really interesting. I'm glad they're doing that apparently, if they do indeed do that, because again, this is like I don't necessarily think Arthur was wrong to feel weird about it.
Yeah, yeah, that's how I feel about it too, Like I love that we get to perceive everything through Jen's eyes and this is like a gen centric show, But in that moment, I think there is a bigger conversation to be had.
And I think something that the MCU has done and has expanded on throughout its years and has gotten really good at is looking at the kind of collateral damage of being a hero, right, whether it's in your personal life, whether it's in the more gigantic space of superheroics, and the damage that that causes on a financial or physical level. But I think this is a really interesting space where
they can kind of expand that. So yeah, and it was interesting to see Mallory use that as a space to side with Jen, which is something that we haven't really seen because it's very they've very much been sort of peered against each other as the women in the law firm.
It's also an interesting way, you know, because it with Bruce split personalities or just are kind of integral to his experience of the Hulk, both in the comics and the movies and the MCU less so, but in the comics like very dramatically, like the Hulk has different personas and there are different factions of Hulks within this Hulk schism of of Bruce's personality, and now Jen is having to grapple with she is Jen, right, She's She's the
gen personality is dominant the whole time when she she Hulks, she is Jen. At the same time, the way that the world will perceive her and the way this lawsuit is is is making her interact with this new personality is as is she Hulk as a separate entity under Jen. And it's just like a fascinating thing to process. Like again, I don't think Jen wasn't trying to trick anybody, but there's clearly a blind spot here in the thing about blind spot is you don't know it's there because you don't see it.
Yeah, I'm also very interested in what this means because in the comics, for the most part, Jen just chooses to stay as she Hulk and it generally has So I want to know if that journey. We're getting a lot of really fun visual gags here where like with like Tatiana in the giant suit when she's so tiny, it's so funny, Like I was always a cast big woman as she Holk kind of person, but in this show, the way that they represent it with the tiny woman,
big suit, it's a very funny visual gag. But I am very interested to know if Jen will ever come to that place in the MCU like Bruce did with the Smart Hulk professor Hulk personality in her own way of feeling that she Hulk is the best representation of her or the person that she wants to be for most of the time. I'll be very interested to see that.
Yeah, I wonder if we ever get to a point in shows in MCU, whether it's the shows of the movies where Jen is in che Hulk form for the majority, the vast majority of whatever the thing is, It'll be very interesting to see that. Yeah.
Also, so you kind of touched on how this you know, We're seeing this lawsuit in the kit in the courtroom, and it kind of becomes this more focus song Jen and obviously her dating life, but it is very much in the tradition of these lawsuits we've seen Jen fight, whether it's against you know, dead Evil or anyone else. It's very fun to see them leaning into that, like mundanity of the court cases that she casts to fight, like, yeah, she is a superpowered lawyer, but also cease and desist
or trade the right. Yeah, yeah, And I thought that was really fun, and I especially liked the avanngs or Avengers, the fake Avengers merch.
We got to get some of that merchant.
Yeah, I mean, somebody send us an Avenges hat.
As Daredevil enters the MCU, you know, there has always been a really interesting tension in the comics, you know, and even in the Netflix series for sure, about Matt who is a lawyer that fights for the little guy and is incredibly passionate about using the legal system to defend people and defend people's rights, who at the same time breaks the law like every single night, every night as the vigilante Daredevil, destroying property, assaulting various people without
an understanding of necessarily that they've committed a crime. You know, in the comics, one of Daredevil's like big techniques is he will just go into some like Kingpin connected bar and beat up everybody in sight to get information. He does this like on a regular basis, and it's interesting there, and there's always been that tension there. That's been part of why Daredevil is so interesting. Of he practices the law, he's very interested in the law, but he breaks the
law every single night of the week. So I think I wonder if how much of that is going to enter into what we're seeing now because Jen, to be fair to her, isn't Jen doesn't do that. Not. Jen fights when it is necessary and when she has to defend herself. But she's not going into like a place and just busting it up to get you.
She is not killing people on a regular basis because of her Catholic guilt, which Matt does. Like rite, Matt's chaining people to church roofs, he's eating people up, he's killing people, he's taken down gangs. He's ignoring the obvious wealth and health disparities in Hell's Kitchen that caused these problems, and he's just fucking people up. So yeah, I think that's a really great point. Also, so a running joke
that we've seen from the earliest episodes. I think it's episode two where we first hear it, which is this idea that Jen has been rejected from the Avengers, and now there's this ongoing joke that Jen is going to be an Avenger or she needs to be an Avenger to get things done. Kevin Feige recently said at d twenty three that the Avengers currently do not exist, right, there's no Avengers. This feels to me like they're setting
up Jen being in a version of the Avengers. Whether it's course, you know, which was the first all female Avengers team and Jen was the leader of the original version of it. I feel like the Avengers nods they're leading somewhere. This show doesn't do anything unintentionally, like what do you think.
Oh, I mean, listen, Kate is heading to la we imagine at some point, right, yeah, I feel like there are a lot of threads leading us to the creation of a West Coast team. Whether they call that a West Coast Avengers team, I don't know, but a West Coast superhero team we understand, you know, Simon Williams is going to appear on the scene at some point with with Trevor Slattery, as we would assume his acting coach, you know, of some sort.
Of course.
So I think you're right. Wait, and I wonder if we're going to see that West Coast team come together Scott Langs. Scott is also out here on the West Coast, so I wonder if we're going to see that West Coast team before we see a quote unquote Avengers team.
I think I think we're not going to see the Avengers until we get as they are the Avengers, you know, with the adjective list Avengers, until probably those two Avengers movies, and I think we know that they're going to be that, And I think you're right, We're going to see many different teams, and it feels like a West Coast team is very likely.
I think that when we do get that Avengers team, obviously years from now, literally literal years, but I think that as we move in that direction, it would make sense to me that if Nick is still around, he will be in stru mental in assembling that team alongside
alongside you know, war Machine. I think war Machine will be the coming off of whatever happens in Armor Wars is going to be like the not necessarily Tony, but the kind of government liaison, whereas Nick is going to be more of the outlaw.
So I wonder, I wonder if this is so. I wonder. I think that Nick's one Samuel Jackson lost playing Nick Fury Fury until they stop letting him play Nic theory, Yeah, until he can't walk anywhere literally, So I think he's going to be around. I think his prominence and secret invasion means we're going to see him come back to
the forefront. Now, I wonder if what we're going to see is Nick having to create a team to counteract the Thunderbolts, because he has already established a government shield funded Avengers, right, that's the Avengers we know from the MCU, So he would know what he needed in the team to take down the government funded heroes inverted commas of the Thunderbolts, and that would be very funny and could lead into some good comic book stuff because in the comics,
the Contesta and Nick Fury have a love life that they want shed. It's very betrayal and spy heavy. So I wonder if we're going to get to see.
We have to get that. I mean to think about I need Soper and.
Samuel accent together. We need to have that, we have to have parents.
Because here's the thing that if you could, here's the thing that we haven't got enough of than the mc U. It's that it is like it is couples that broke up that still have mess That's part of why I can't wait for the Mutants and for the X Men are coming, because that's the whole thing. And that's the whole thing. It's love trigles this one. These two were together, but also she's in love with him, and there's a
whole thing. And you know, the these two are carrying on a long running psychic affair like that.
It's like we need that in the MCU.
And so and so I'm I'm I'm very very hopeful that Nick and the Contesta have a history.
They can be the introduction to the MESSI romance. Okay, this is slight. This is now slightly off topic, but related to your tangent and it's X Men focus. So I think it's fine, but how likely. One of the most famous was a fan love triangle was a canon love triangle between a woman and two men Jean Gray, Cyclops and Wolverine. Yeah, that has now become a Cannon MCU potential polyamorous queer ship situation in the Krakoa Age.
There is a very famous blueprint of the where they're all living, and the doors between Jean's rooms, cyclops room, and Wolverine's room they all open into each other's rooms. How likely do you think if we're talking about romantic mess obviously Gene Wolverine slash Gene Cyclops, that's going to probably happen if we get an older collection of those heroes, which I am leaning towards the idea that the teacher the mutants, who we know as the most famous X Men will likely be teacher age.
That's what I think they're going to do.
How likely do you think we're going to see them play into that with maybe like the adjoining rooms, or like the idea that it's the three of them, just like a little nod As age seems like it's going to be the influence for.
The Krokoa Age is wonderfully Polly Nah. I don't know that they would do doors, but I think that they there has to be tension that is there for the fans to pick up on, like little things, little comments from Logan about about how happy Gene is, and that has to exist because you know, it's honestly just been such a part of the texture of those characters for basically as long as they've been around, Like for as long as Wolverine has been around, he's been in love
with Jid Gray, like obviously talking about it all the time, and for at least that long he and Scott have been like butting heads about it. So it's got to be there in some form of fashion. I think it's got to be.
I think about how good, how well played that was in the Zero's X Men between fam Key Ansen, Hugh Jackman and James Marsden, who is so brilliant as Cyclops. I actually think one of my favorite things now I think about it. I rewatched those movies like far too much, but I do always think about how the end of
Days of Future Past. I think they understand diod that relationship even better than some comic book creators did, because at the end, after everything is done, Logan goes back and he opens the door of Charles's office and Gene is there, and Scott is there, but he's like so he's like crying when he sees that Scott is there, not just Jane. And I was just like, Okay, yeah, you guys get it. And this is like the the
love triangle. So yeah, I'm very excited hopefully Nick and the Contessa can be the introduction to the romantic mess that we need. It's a bit more like the fun bantery mess than kind of the original mcu Avengers that was very focused on heroics less so on romance, you know, and when it did come it was it was kind of touch and go, So it will be nice to see that built in in a more extensive, fun way.
That's it for us today. Rosie anything to plug.
Yes, you can find me Rosie Marks on Instagram and letterbox.
You can read my stuff at notice pollogon IGN and this weekend I will be at the Orange Public Library for their Comic Convention and I'll be doing a really cool panel with a brilliant bookseller from Mysterious Galaxy, who are friends of the Pod, who are big supporters of the work that we do here, and I'll be there with the table from eleven till four just selling my wares, talking about making comics all that kind of stuff, So feel free to pop on by and say hello.
Catch the next episode of X ray Vision on September twenty third for more House of the Dragon she Helped, plus a return to a Galaxy Far far Away with the premiere of and Or, and of course, don't forget to send your House to the Dragon. Questions to ask themester at gmail dot com If you want to hear our full conversation on the House of the Dragon, plus
the ESK the Master segment. Check out our first episode this week that is purely focused on House of the Dragon is right there in your podcast listening platform of choice. We want your five star reviews. Leave us your reviews, but they got to be five stars wherever you get your podcasts. If you like X ray Vision, please leave us that five star review. We love it, we need it, we gotta have it. X ray Vision is a Crooked Media production. The show is produced by Chris Lord and
Saul Rubin. The show is executive produced by myself and Sandy's rhard Are editing and sound design news by Vascilla's Photopoulos. Dilon Villanueva and Matt Degroup provide video production support. Alex Rellaford handle social media. Thank you Brian Vasquez for a theme music, See you next time.
Bye bye,