Worrying. Today's episode candaded spoilers for episode three of Daredevil Born Again, The Trial of Hector Ayala.
You warn't Whoa. Be warned because there's some spoilers that you don't want to know until you watched it.
Hello, it was Jason Eccepsion and on Roseay Night And welcome back to x ray Vision, the podcast where we dive deep. It's your favorite shows, movies, comics and pop culture coming over MYR podcast where we're bringing you three big episodes a week, plus news on the weekend.
WHOA in today's episode in the airlock, you know, we do drag him occasionally, we say he's a bit of a hypocrite. But episode one oh three of Dead Evil Born Again showcases Matt's incredible talent as a lawyer and how his reckless nature can actually help out when most needed. So that's very exciting to talk about this episode. It's
an incredible episode. We are also going to try and understand Wilson Fisk's moral line because he is another hypocrite in this show, and I can't quite work out what is okay and what isn't okay by him, So let's talk about that and a quick reminder. Our next book club title is The Magician and the Alchemist's Gate from Exhalations by Ted Chang. We will be covering that in two weeks, so make sure you get your questions in soon.
If you want to understand how a book club episode is going to be laid out and how your questions will be used, feel free to listen to our Dad Evil Born Again book Club.
First Airlock Okay Season one, Born Again Wild, Episode three, we open a court Matt is talking to Hector before their court appearance. Hector is clearly just a good dude. We see in another scene a truck pulling up to a salvage yard. This truck gets held up by some Irish gangsters who kill the guys in.
The truck brutal. Just like no, it's happening.
Wilson and Vanessa are discussing this. Their relationship is still very stilted and distant. Fisk tells Sheila basically to who brings news of this murderous truck hijacking, to go tell Commissioner Gallo make this case of priority. I want to stamp down on crime, and particularly gang crime, because I don't want anybody saying no. Look at Now that the kingpin is mayor in New York, gang crime's going crazy. Vanessa says, listen, the gang stuff, it's gonna get worse.
They're all struggling to see who's going to succeed you as kingpin of crime and ultimately, like one of them will win, but only after many of them die. And Fisk is like, listen, I can't get of all this. I'm mayor now, don't worry about this street level stuff, Like we're about this fucking guy every time at court, Officer Powell, the crooked cop, threatens Matt in the bathroom and Matt.
Threatens him right back.
He's like, you know, witness champering is a felony, that fellow officer, so you better watch out.
I love this because the reason that Pound knows that Murdock has this secret life is because MC kicked the shit out him and his body like, and he's not looking good. I'm surprised he was alive, but I'm because they both.
Have something on each other. Like the officer probably is like, well, what I'm out you to the bar and then you're in trouble and he's like, yeah, well what if I out you for attempted murder of a witness, then you're clearly investigator. Cherry walks past a punisher murle which was probably done by muse maybe well maybe maybe not maybe actually that one is just probably punisher fans anyway, and then deliver us right. He delivers a little baggy to
witness Nicki, which is some drugs to just get him. Like, Nicky is addicted to drugs and in order for him to not be withdraw sick, he needs like a little something just to take the edge off the symptoms so he can the stand. Powell takes the stand. His face is all fucked up, and he testifies to his version of the attack in the subway, saying basically the hector came out of nowhere and then he killed one of the cops. Matt does his cross examination, asks He's like, why is your face so fucked up?
Somebody told me you got a black eye, huh.
And basically makes a joke like yeah, it should have ducked or something like that.
FoST hands fast Hans.
He then asks about Nikki Torres, the confidential informant witness that Powell was just trying to murder, and it's like, hey, you know this guy Torres, You ever worked with him? Was? Did you ever meet with Torres? Where you meeting with Torres? That night in the subway. There's like a long pause where Powell's like, how do I answer this?
He is not going to answer, and Matt absolutely traps him because he asks so many times that Powell's lawyer is like trying to signify to him like he's got something here, like just be like I don't remember, maybe I have lick with him. But instead Powell is like, no, no, no, don't know ever.
With that guy. Whoever happens. Meanwhile, Matt overhears with his superhering his Daredevil hearing a cop in the gallery whispering to another cop, and this cop has a punish your tattoo on his neck whisper to another cop. Torres cannot testify, so Matt knows he's onto something. Cherry is moving Torres to the courthouse in an unmarked van, but there's other cops waiting because they need to kill this guy. But
it's a bait and switch. The van is empty and Cherry has one of his associates moving Torres to the courthouse like in a regular taxi. Torres testifies, but he basically gets scared on the stand and is like, no, I never went I was not meeting with cops. I didn't go to that subway station. I don't know what's going on. Witness withdrawn and dismissed. And this is a setback for Matt. Let's pause here to take a break, and we'll be right back after these messengers and we're back.
But Cashman, an assistant to Mayor Fisk, meets with the gangs and he's basically like, listen, chill the fuck out with the murdering and the chuck hijacking and all the crazy gang activity. This is a real problem, and it's a problem for Mayor Fisk, and the boss is the crime gang leaders are like, well fuck Mayor fix and he gets to like call the shots. We don't like you, we don't like Mayor Fisk.
But I do love that he was like, you are gonna pay one point eight million dollars back, and I'm gonna treat you like little kids. I was definitely like, wait a minute, is he just going to kill them? Like is this bullet coming out? Like is it happening? But no, he is obviously paw of Wilson, Fisk and Vanessa's new I love the way that that like, you know, send the man down here, and he said, I don't
work for the man. I work for the man. So he said, that's still Kingpin, So you about to watch yourself.
At McDuffie and murdochs our friends are plotting their next move in the I Alley case. Maybe there's a paper trail proving that Torre has worked with Powell and the other officers and they can't find anything. Matt's basically at the moves. Hector testifying and seeming believable, is maybe all that they have, like show like get him up there and hopefully he seems innocent. Meanwhile, king Pin and Vanessa are continuing to have sessions with Heather. There are a
couples therapy sessions. We go back to court. Hector testifies to his side of the story, which is he happened upon him mugging, and he broke up the mugging, and one of these muggers slipped and fell into the railway track and it turned out that that guy is a cop, and that in fact, that he was breaking up some sort of cop event, and that the mugging victim is fled.
He doesn't know where he went. Matt, then, going back on his earlier discussion with the judge and with Prosecutor Hackenberg, pulls out the white tire rask it goes Hector, I ella would not have just attacked criminals or cops or whoever, because he is the white tiger.
Yes or no?
Hector? Are you the white tiger? And the judge again, heads up?
Could have given Hector heads up? My friend? This was I love Matt. He's so crazy.
He was desperate, and I think he thought Hector would say no. But I still am like, you gotta tell your client.
Yeah, you gotta tell the client. But you know, as Matt makes a point, there is no other route to go when they just decimated your whole argument by having the guitars and this way. I love that Matt says this, but he's like, you know him when the judge calls into the chambers and he's like, bro, what the fuck. Matt's like, look, I didn't want you to suppress it. I was gonna bring it up like they tampered with
my witness, so I had to do it. But he's like, being the white Tiger is actually like it speaks to his character and why he would have got involved in
this fight. And I was like, okay, so Matt's also weirdly kind of he's putting himself on trial, like it's very much about the nature of being a big vigil being a vigilante and arguing that in the wake of Fisk's anti vigil anti platform, which rhymes very nicely when I say it, I just realized, but his anti vigilanti platform means that Matt is here arguing Yeah, sure for Hector, but also for the role of mass vigilantes in this New York.
Various people who have been saved or otherwise helped by the White Tiger testify on Hector's behalf. It is all very effective. Then Matt introduces police reports showing that in fact, not only has White Tiger helped regular people's helped cops on a lot of occasions with their cases. He's a good guy who protects the week, has no malice towards cops, and he's helped some cops.
So what now?
And then he points out Hector was there that night without his amulet, that he was not, in other words, not armed and dangerous.
Yeah, not in costume, not armed with an emotional that's magical amulet.
Guys, he was not looking for trouble that night.
Mm hmmm yeah. Because Also, I just I like the idea that Matt brought this up, because he's like, if he wanted to kill the cops, wouldn't he wear the magic? I do just want to say, guys, I know this is a reach, but I also know that they would not put this in if they didn't want us to talk. We know this is very famously a show that set in New York, and Jason, we get a lot of Red Hook mentions this episode, so I'm very excited for you to potentially dig into Red Hook in a future omnibus.
But they when he's listing out all the different people that White Tiger helped, he mentions Officer Morales, and I think we are supposed to wonder whether or not that is Miles that in this un I think, and I love that.
I love that we go to final arguments, the jury fives Hector not guilty. Fisk is unhappy because he's made vigilantes, you know, like the number one issue of his mayoral reign. So he's like, Dan, go get your friend BB Urich. I'm going to give her an exclusive. Meanwhile, Matt cooks a victory dinner for Heather. Bbie arrives at the Mayor's office and Fisk tells her, listen to this verdict is a travesty. I know it was a jury trial, but Juri's get shit wrong and the jury is wrong, the
court was wrong. This is fucked up. I should know as a victim of not just vigilantes but also the system I was. I'm a victim of those things.
He's like, I was probably convicted incorrect.
Crimes. Also killed your uncle, which you don't know about, but I'm gonna keep that secret to myself.
I really love the way they're using bb in this show. I think we talked about the great kind of chapter, kind of bookends or introductions that the things pose. I felt like they were really given like Larry Clark kids vibes. It felt very naturalistic. And I love that she is not afraid. When she sits in front of Kinkin and he's talking about Hector Iola is a murderer. He's a criminal. She keeps checking him and being like, no, he had a jury trial, he's innocent.
And we see his.
King he's like, fuck that. I decide it's law very resonant when you're living in America in twenty twenty five, surprisingly prescient. But this is such a great moment because he's doing this kind of really intense monologue about cracking down and how you know this can't be we can't let people like hector on the streets. And as that's going on, we get to the final scene, Jason, what happens?
Well, Victor is walking down the street and she's ready for action, even though Matt did tell him, listen, you're gonna have to You probably are gonna have to stop the white tiger stuff now because everybody knows your right and he said no, but he's like, fuck it. I'm out here.
It's a calling, bro, I got my magical ambula.
I'm made for this. Someone steps out of the shadows, puts a gun to his temple and blows him away. And that person we see is wearing a bulletproof vest with a punisher logo painted on it. And we'll be right back after a quick brick.
And we're back.
I'm here to tell you it simply cannot be Frank Castle.
It's absolutely isn't Frank Castle, he is himself a vigilante, though I will say I did think they added an interesting rinkle hair because in the comics, Frank really hates people who kill cops. So I think that it is You're supposed to think, because we know that John Bernhall's coming back and we know Punisher is going to be you are supposed to think it's him. But I think
that we can definitively say it's absolutely not him. He is a guy who's motivated by revenge for his family for stopping criminals shooting a family man in the head who's just been exonerated. I don't think it's him, but as we know with the Punisher neck tattoos, the Punisher risk tattoos, there is a Punish a Cop gang, and I think this is one of the members of the
Punish a Cop Gang who works for FISC. And I think that in the next episode or the next few episodes, I think we will learn that this symbol is being used by the gangs, and I believe that we may find that Frank does not want to use that logo anymore. That's my guess, because I think he's gonna think it's
being appropriated in a really dangerous way. I also have to say, we saw that funny ass you know, it's a punisher low Go painted on the wall that says triggered, and I was like, I was like, do they have the juice? But actually I think they have the juice because I think that more show that's like a cop that's obviously a cop symbol saying hey, if you see this, are you triggered? Are you triggered? I think it speaks a lot to the wider conversation this show is trying
to have. I mean, I thought this episode was unbelievable. It moved me the first time I watched it. When that final episode happened, I gasped out loud, like I was absolutely shocked. The heck didn't survive. They build you up to care about I think He's like a great episode. I really wanted to see him and Matt in action fighting together, you know, but I don't think that we're necessarily gonna see that. I also think that it's really great to see Matt as a functioning lawyer who cares
about the law. Who is it He didn't use his you know, magical hearing to do anything dodgy or corrupt here he used it for good. He rept Hector based on the fact he believed he was innocent. And I think that if this was made up of and I think we can at least say it partially was from what we know in the fact that hect Ayala was announced years ago for this project. I think this is probably what the meat of the original Dare Devil series
was the one that got pulled. I think that there is a version of this where it was probably a few episodes of Hector in Court. I would have loved to see it because I thought this was very effective. But I also think part of the thing that has been so effective for me in this series is it's very comic book. Wilson Fisk is just the mayor that's happening.
It's happening in one issue and you're dealing with it. Uh. Hect Ayala great guy, vigilante, but he is getting killed at the end of this episode, after we go through his trial. They are speed running this, but in a way that doesn't feel rushed. And I thought Matt revealing the white Tiger mask was such a good surprise. I didn't see it coming, and I loved having the people in court on the record speaking about what vigilanteism means to them. I think that will come back again.
Question. There are all these shots this one per episode, last couple episodes where we see Wilson Fisk's knuckles all bruised up. He's been punching stuff, he's.
Been what's he doing stuff?
What do you think?
I don't know. I think that especially in this episode, they do that great cut from Fisk's knuckles to Matt's, and I think the implication there is once again like what are these two men doing? How do they go about doing it? I wonder if Fisk has either been training, because he did talk a lot about to Matt about losing weight, having a lighter step, like wanting to be
more in control of his body. And I would be interesting to see if we're going to get a big Kingpin fight sequence, or he himself, you know, has been beaten on people. That's I think It's like, I think they mostly did it for the matter of it all, because ever since the end of the first episode, we're getting a lot of aren't they the same? Don't they both pursue things in the same way. I'm interested to
know and to see who Fisk is beating on. I'm guessing that will be a big reveal when they finally kind of touch on it. What do you think I.
Agree with all of that. I think it's either a allusion to the inner turmoil of like Fisk trying to be the go straight mayor while harbor still harboring these very very violent tendencies and taking them out on something. Or he's got someone like a gang leader. Yeah, he is has somewhere and he's I was wondering that ship.
If he's like he's like going down there and that's his true therapy when he goes down these guys who betrayed something like that. Yeah, I do think that could definitely be. It almost like he has like a secret kind of torture room where that's why that's his punching bag. You know we've seen the end of this episode was so brutal, you know what It really reminded me of And I know we talk about this episode a lot
because it is so effective. I think the way they ended the episode and the fact that at the end of this episode they chose not to have any music and instead had the sound of the frogs that Hector was talking about. Yeah, from Puerto Rico. It was very when Jamie gets his hand cut off in Game of Thrones, Yeah, you.
Know, this kind of huge shot and then it gives you a quiet When I heard the frogs, I actually like teared up because I loved the implication that, like, that's what.
Hector would hear after he died, that's where he wants to be. But it also gives us time to process what we've just seen, which is a really brutal and horrible thing and something that I think political violence and violence towards people who stand up against corrupt governments. That's again very scary, very real right now. So I have to say I really was. I loved the first two episodes.
They were so fun, they were so action packed. But this episode reminded me why Dead Evil was such a huge hit in the first place, which is when it focuses on character and delivers something like this that is so heart wrenching. We meet Hector's wife, we meet Hector's daughter. I'm hoping one of them will take on the white tiger mantle. There has been female white tigers in the comics. Also, the magical Amula is still there, and I have to say surprising no one. I fucking love the magical amula.
I love it everything.
I just laughed because I'm like, you're gonna have Matt Murdoch in a court of law talking about, oh, you know, he didn't have his magical amleola that gives him great power and strength. But then you're also making me cry in like a really politically resonant storyline. That is a true skill. And I love how they're blending and building
in these more superheroic, more MCU moments. I mean, I was absolutely cracking up watching this because there is a Jack Kirby Black Panther story that Nick is very fond of, so I know it very well about these magical frogs that people use to teleport, and they're and they're also like mechanical. The moment he said frogs, we were like freaking out. We were like, are they gonna do it?
The teleporting frogs? Obviously they didn't go that deep, but it's very fun to see them kind of acknowledge the fact that in this era of New York and the MCU, some people have magical amulets, some people have chatari check, people have the stuff that makes it easier for them to fight crime, and as we know from watching You Know the great Your Friendly Neighborhood Spider Man series, that is also something that is going on in the real MCU.
We saw that in Tom Hollands MCU. There are people getting this tech, whether it's you know tech that Shoka used or whether it's tech that the incredible Michael Douglas used in the first movie. Like, I think that there is some really interesting balancing going on for the magic elements, the cosmic elements, and the brutal violence that Dead Devil is no More. I was really shocked.
I'm the way that connecting Daredevil to the wider MCU is really effective with a it's a great light touch. Rosie, you made a list of some good comics for folks who want to see Matt in action as a lawyer.
Yes, so there's some really fun ones. I've written about this quite extensively. During the Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe, you do get to see Matt playing the Punisher's lawyer, which is also great. But throughout history he has really done a great job playing the lawyer to some of the most wild characters in the MCU. In Sins of the Fathers, he is playing it to Spider Man, like protecting Spider Man's rights for privacy so people don't get
to know who he is. We get the Incredible Hulk issue one point fifty two Hulks arrested and it's this huge plot line where essentially, in a very clever twist, Matt argues that the Hulk is mentally incompetent to stand trial and he proves it, and there is some early stuff in Da Devil number seven. This is one of my favorite ones where he is a good classic at Wallywood story where basically I love this arc. I love
this issue so much. It's so clever. Basically, nay More asks him to sue humanity and Matt is obviously like, I'm not going to do it, like I am a human bad choice. Name More recks everything, and it is actually just completely delightful to see Matt Murdoch kind of come to terms with the fact that maybe he made the wrong choice, and in the end name More on him become friends. But remember name Or used to be like a real human hater, so I do understand that's point,
but I love it. We also in Spider Man Black Cat, Matt gets to be Felicia Hardy's new lawyer, and that's really interesting because him and you know, ladies love Matt Murdoch and while she is sitting in Rikers Island, Matt you know, decides to represent her. But it's very hard to represent people in the MCU, so him and Spider Man do actually, you know, break her out that time. But I'm all for breaking people out of Ryker's Island.
Another really fun one that I think people will enjoy is that that in nineteen ninety seven there's a Venom on Trial mini series that's really fun where he basically argues, and I think I would love to see something like this in the MCU. I think you could really drill down into bringing Eddie Brock and Venom into the MCU without having to rely on the wild craziness in the fact that he's like a multi mass murderer, where Matt essentially argues that the Symbia is culpable for the crimes
and not Eddie. And I think that's really really interesting. You know, he's represented. Captain America would say those are some good ones to start with, but also we've recommended it a lot here. The Charles Saul Dead everyone is really fantastic for this because, yeah, there's a lot of lawyer and because Charles Saul is a lawyer, so you get he was a lawyer. So those are really really fun, good spaces that Matt has protected people. There's also a lot of fun Matt and she hooks stuff, which is
why they brought that into the show. And yet so just some quick, easy places to see Matt Murdoch doing a little bit of lawyering rather than just beating people to a pulp. Okay, Jason, just before we go, he's angry with Vanessa because she is like trying to bribe people and make the criminals all get along. But apparently he also ordered a hit on someone and just had him shot in the street. So where where where we think that? But we've seen We've seen this man kill a lot of people.
Yeah, yeah, we suspect that that's what he's done.
Yeah, what do you think about his kind of moral compass in his arc in the show? Where do you see him going? Do you think him and Vanessa stick it out? Like a little bit of a prediction as we move into I think.
I think that Mayor Fisk will continue his run as mayor. I think that they will be a confrontation over something some other thing, but that ultimately the battle will continue. Matt will still be a lawyer, will not be disbarred.
Maybe I don't know that possible that he could be disbarred, and I think the Kingpin ultimately will think about I think the Kingpin will consider outing Matt as Daredevil, which is something that has happened in the comics a few times and something that the Kingpin has often taken part of. So I think that at the end of this series, the Kingpin will still be Mayor of New York, and I think that it's quite possible that Matt Murdoch is in a lot more trouble.
Could also be very interesting to see that happen, and then maybe have him connect with Spider Man, who we know went through a similar to but is now forgotten. And Spider Man and Deed of are intrinsically connected. Guys. I know it seems crazy to say that, but I think this show is high quality enough that we could see a potential real MCU crossover aside from the great world building they're already doing. So yeah, I'm very excited. I thought this was a brilliant episode. I love to
see Matt being a good lawyer. I loved seeing Hector Ayala white Tiger. That's such a cool version of the character. I thought he was brilliant and I just can't wait to watch episode four. I'm so excited same, It's very exciting great TV right now, Great day is happening.
Stay tuned extra Vision as we continue to cover some of the great TV that's happening and some of our upcoming episodes. Monday, we're premiering a new game show, You're Wrong Friend, where we'll be debating in that particular episode, which maligned Marvel property is most worthy of rewatch. Is it Ah the Eternals or is it Marvel's The Devenders. Wednesday will review the ltimate episode of Severance episode two
oh nine. We cannot wait for that one. And on Thursday, we've got another recap of Daredevil Born Again with episode one oh four. That's it for this episode, Thanks for listening, goodbye. X ray Vision is hosted by Jason Sepcion and Rosie Knight and is a production of iHeart Podcasts.
Our executive producers are Joel Monique and Aaron Kletman.
Our supervising producer is Abu Zafar.
Our producers are Common, Laurent Dean Jonathan and fay Wag.
A theme song is by Brian Vasquez, with alternate theme songs by Aaron Kaufman.
Special thanks to Soul Rubin, Chris Lord, Kenny Goodman and Heidi Our. Discord moderate though