Worrying.
Today's episode contains spoilers for and Or season two episode seven, eight and nine, the third tranch of chapters from and Or season two.
If you weren't.
Hello, my name is Jasconcepcio and I'm Rosie Night.
Welcome back to X ray Visions, the podcast movie dived your favorite Jos movies, comics of pop culture for by our podcast, where we'll bring you three episodes a week every Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday.
In today's episode, we are calling everyone back to Abbin to discuss episode seven A and nine of Andor's second season for our round table. It's roundly being called some of the best star wars you've ever seen, not just by me and Jason in all recently released social clips, but also by the critical mass. There's one person who won't be calling them that will.
Well let him in lay up.
So let's welcome a Boo and Joel. How you doing, guys, So nice.
To have you, guys.
Very excited.
My eyes hurt from crying. It's a lot.
There was a lot, a lot of emotional stuff going on, so let's just let's dig into it. Let's talk about it.
Yeah, first, you know, we've heard our Rosie and I are opinions on this What what What are y'all's thoughts on episode seven through nine?
A boo, let's start with you.
My thoughts are not much changed from last time. I feel like a broken record at this point. But every week I'm like, that was the greatest Star Wars I've ever seen. It can't possibly get better. And then I watched three more episodes of this show, and I'm like, that was the greatest Star Wars I've ever seen. It just keeps getting better. I think, gosh, I don't even know if this is I'd have to like rewatch this
whole show and like really process it. But at the moment, at the height of my emotions, having just watched and rewatched this set of episodes, I think it's the best one so far. And I might just be saying that again, yeah.
And I will say because there's gonna be quite a lot of I think that sentiment. Aboo, what is it for you that makes these three episodes some of the best Star Wars, if not the best Star Wars that you.
Use mon Mathma keeps getting hotter? Important topic, No, I think what's really gosh? I mean, like the stars aligning the planets, aligning with the show releasing in this moment in time, just keeps hitting it in ways that I find like extremely unexpected, like Mon Mathema's speech. I was expecting Mon to drop a fire speech, and she did.
But I think her specific use of the word genocide given everything that's going on in the world, particularly in the Israel Palestine corner of the world right now, like Mon saying that word on the Senate floor to countless people in a broadcast, to who knows trillions of citizens across the Galactic Empire. Saying that word out loud and acknowledging it, that kind of for me personally, hit like
a truck. And the show continues to do that over and over again in ways that feel we've said it, you know, on these episodes many times, but that feel prescient in a way that is shocking.
In a speech about the what you call it abyss between what we know to be true and what we're able to say here, I mean fucking chills. And I think compounded by the fact that it follows the attack on Gore and the last speech. Dina's giving this speech over the radio and she's talking about how her people are being massacred and dying around her, and she's like,
anyone can hear us? Like we're dying? I mean, I and it tempt not to cry too early as sobbing, Like I think it's just some of the most beautiful writing. But also I think in a series about war to bring us to a true point of hopelessness and crafting a narrative around it so that you can too be in it and feel it. I mean, I know, again we say it all the time, but like the way this Plus is rogue one in such a profound and significant way, in the way that was able to Plus
a new hope. I mean, I think it's just so impressive to be able to raise a series that's been around for forty plus years in new and shocking ways by treading over the things that made the series essential in our hearts in the first place. I mean, what he does with the force in this and I mean, we'll get into it later, but I didn't know that you could show and not tell us what the forces without having to use like CGI and magical whimsy chimes and stuff. He showed us what the force is without
any force powers. How'd you do it? It was incredible. I was so moved by the series of episodes. To me, this is the best Star Wars movie of all time, and it is because it's hitting on the rebellion, it's hitting on the politics, it's hitting on the purpose and importance and impact of faith. I don't know if there's better TV on or has ever been better TV on period. Yeah, it's brilliant.
I think it's I think it's clearly the best TV that's on right now. And I think we've we've been banging that drum for a little while. Yeah, I had, you know again, for a show that is obviously not connected at all to current events at all, to find the way it's resonating, it's just it's It is incredibly powerful.
And the thing that I took away from these episodes in particular is this is kind of the awakening for everybody that, Okay, there's no way forward without losing, without getting hit, without giving up something, without sacrificing a relationship, without sacrificing comfort, without sacrificing safety. There's no way to go forward through this without being labeled a criminal or an outlaw or a terrorist. Like and in a lot of ways after that it seems like everything is is
almost easier. I'm fascinated also by the by the way that these episodes in the series plays with some of the tropes of Star Wars.
I think Dedra and Cyril for instances about them.
Yeah, because we're used to the idea in Star Wars of the villain who is redeemed, who comes to a moment where they realize, oh shit, on the bad guy, I've been doing evil because I'm hurt, because I'm traumatized, I'm doing evil for quote unquote the right reasons. Now it's time to stop doing this. And we see both Cyril and Dedra come to these realizations, but in ways that are completely twisted from what we're used to. Cyril has the scales falls from his eyes. He realizes, oh wait,
the Empire is doing bad stuff. People who don't like the Empire are not diluted fools who have been misled by you know, agitators. But he's still more comfortable throwing his lot in with the bad guys than he is doing anything else.
And then there's Dedra, who is.
Broadly against what is happening and what she's taking an active role in doing, but is against it for purely like personal reasons of ambitions and career. I think I think that's really fascinating, showing the different ways that you can be for something that's absolutely fucking terrible.
I completely agree. I think that this show and something that has become very clear from my rewatches and then like, as soon as this episode's hit, I'm in the discord, I'm on ready, I want to know what everyone else feels about it. I think something that Gil or I did here was gave us more time with the Imperials than we've ever gotten before, and not just time of
what do they believe in? What are they doing? Personal time, personal interactions, and they humanized them, not so we would feel empathetic, so that we could understand where they were coming from. Sooo, what was your read now that.
We're this far in?
Obviously we are the rip, They're all part.
Of the Swiss, I think we would say, but aboo, how did that part of these episodes speak to you and kind of help raise it above what we've seen before in Star Wars.
Yeah. Look, I think the two of you aptly called Cyril a rat many times in your recap, and that certainly fits the label is well deserved, but all throughout Episode seven, in particular, where we see Cyril go out into the massacre and you're like, is he gonna do something? Is he gonna help someone? I was waiting for that classic Star Wars redemption moment to happen, and I think the show very much knew that as well. It was very much teasing the serial redemption moment back to the light.
He saw his mistakes, the error of his ways, and he's gonna do something small maybe, but something enough to redeem him.
And he doesn't no.
The thing I loved about that moment Abo is it's almost like he's so mad at Cassian, yeah, for bursting his bubble, for making him realize the truth, and he's almost more angry at that he would have preferred to stay in the fantasy that the Upper's grade and everything's gone great and all that shit.
Yeah.
I think that's the same reaction he has with who is at Papa Rye Lance, the older, older man. He tries to actually stop, you know, he realizes it's a trap. And that was very hard for me to watch too, because obviously the dramatic irony there as the viewer, I know it's a trap. And this guy's right and nobody's listening to him, and it's too late. But Cyril confronts him as well and really like rough houses him, throws
and throws him to the ground. And I think it's because he's coming face to face with the humanity of the Gormans and the mistake that he's made. You know, he's having these emotional outbursts and these reactions, literally grabbing Dietre by the neck. I was like, oh my god, Yeah, my god, I think it is. It was very enjoyable
for me to watch the serial breakdown happen. And at the same time, part of me, the especially the little kid in me who grew up watching Star Wars, was waiting for Cyril to redeem himself and he never did. And I think that that was brilliant and shocking.
Joelle, how about you.
I really appreciate So Dan Gilroy wrote this set of episodes, and so I just want to make sure we like shout out what he's done here to me, Like, I it's so easy to hate Cyril, like wow, whiney Mama's boy, like boot liquor rat, Like it's really easy to throw all these lables. But she's earned, like not taking anything away from that, but what I think has been done really well here is there's a removal of the idea that any of these people are monsters. Right, Like Will
at one point is like daters of monster. I don't think datres a monster. I think Datre's a person who's only just now discovered like true love. And I don't mean just in the romance sense, like this is the first person who's ever loved Dandra and taken time and invested in her and believed in her beyond just what she was able to do for him.
Right.
I think Cyril is a person who was told this is what it is to be a man, and like a good person is to fight for the empire. And he's I'll just be a little crash, too stupid to figure out like what's actually going on, like staring him in the face. He doesn't see it at all. He's so gobsmacked by the idea that he was like, it's not you. They don't even think it's you. They think it's outside people. And the guys like do you think I'm stupid? Like how could you even say this word
to mean? He's like, no, I believe these words these words aren't true. What's going on? And then the only person that's ever been genuinely kind and supportive and defended him that we've seen Deadra has been lying to him for a years and he's finding all this out at the same time, and he is unraveling in front of us.
And I think, I just think it's it's profoundly important to remember all times that everyone you're dealing with is a human and is a person, and so that when you get to this final moment for him, you're not so much mourning him as just mourning every point in time that you've known him where he might have seen the light and just made a different choice.
I do think that you made the point about, like, how do humans enact terrific things? And this is a great study in that. And I love I didn't actually realize that this was Tony Gilroy's brother, Dan Gilroy, who wrote this episode, So I'm saying, brother.
All three Gilroy's out here cooking absolutely is crazy. And yeah, I just think I think, what like if we look at like what's going on with Daja for a minute, like she like, I mean, I went for Dadrea. Guys, that's incredible writing that's incredible acting. I hated this woman and she's so alone at the end of this, and again from her own making. I don't feel bad for her. She put herself in this position again at any time. She is the one who literally is in the position
to call for this attack to happen or not. She is guilty every which way you look. And yet I feel for how alone and completely isolated and devastated by her own decisions and how you understand fully she's never ever going to get what she's seeking on this path. There's no possible way, Dandre, for one one execu to another. Your job cannot love you back, give you anything you
need things outside of this, and she has nothing. And I just I mean to witness to hold space for both their tragedies again that they set up themselves and the horrific massacre of Gore.
I I don't.
I didn't think I had space for that kind of except like realization, acceptance in my heart, in my body. For them to do in a show, it's just entirely moving. It's wonderful. Yeah.
I have a slightly different tweak on the dedrashial are humans kind of a perspective which I completely agree with It's important to remember the fleshing out of these characters to allow you to understand how they came to this place. I think is really important.
And for me it's what is What.
Hits is how is less about the tragedy of their lives and more about how how much humility these characters have to take into what they're doing, because it's not that far away from what Cassian and the rebels are doing. In terms of like an ideological leap two. It's just like a little bit more thought, be a little bit more thoughtless, be a little bit more closed off, be a little bit less questioning, and you're just and you're that person right without real without realizing it.
And I think it's that.
It's that the idea that it doesn't and really doesn't take that much.
For you to for people who are just trying to work a job to enact something terrible. That is truly the for me, the gut punch thought of this, like, these aren't these aren't spectacularly special.
People, you know, these are just sociopaths that they have enlist, that people who have raised in a system. And I think this makes this Jason, that's such a good point because I do think as well as this is not based on any specific real life experience, but we are in a time again where we are getting reports that people who are doing horrific things, who are disappearing. People are saying, hey, I'm just following my orders. I'm not evil,
I'm just doing what the government tells me. And I think there is definitely a continuous reckoning with that kind of idea in this And Tony Giro did a great interview with the Hollywood Reporter. Obviously, the show is in pre production twenty twenty two, so it's more about being prescient than no, like just making shows that are so good that they end up feeling realistic whatever timeline you're in.
But he had this great thing, which I think is a really good point, which says the really sorry truth about this question about the genocide, question about the reality of the show and what inspired it. And he said, and we get it a lot, is that peace and prosperity and calm are the rarities. Those are rarities throughout the last six thousand years of recorded history. You could drop this show at any point in the last six thousand years and it would make sense to some people.
About what is happening to them. And I love the notion of like Gilra is like, bro, human history sucks, and guess what it's sucking right now. And it sucked fifty years ago, and it sucked one hundred years ago. And that's why this feels so relevant. And I kind of love the almost like nihilistic viewpoint on that. And the truth is, look, there's a reason it moved everyone. People speaking truth to power, and as he continued to say, is like the control of truth has always been the
scabbard of power, and power dictates the narrative. And look at what the Empire does to Gorman with their propaganda campaign, and that is like the realist shit, because I think that is what makes it feel so real, is like those people are in that system and at any point in life a change could come where they would see something different. Cassium wasn't always going to be a revolutionary.
He wasn't born into it, you know. And I think, to me, the fact that this feels so real and literally, like two days ago, we're hearing people say, oh, I'm just following my job when they're disappearing people under the guise of ice or homeland security and it feels just as relevant to have that conversation. That is the power of what Tony girl doing. As he said, it's not a psychic this was made in twenty twenty two, But
I'm like, actually, that's the power of the storytelling. Can you make something that feels so timeless that it has literally started a global political discourse due to one speech that you wrote two years before the Israel Palestine conflict as it is now existed, Like that to me is
like an unbelievable understanding of history and human nature. And I think that is what the stuff, specifically with Deirdre and Cyril really was giving me, like a lot of feelings in this of like how horrific to be the human who makes the wrong choice and look at what you've done, like look at the death you've caused, because at no point did you listen to any kind of inkling within yourself of whether this was right or wrong.
And I just think that's like unbelievable storytelling. And also like rest in peace, piss to Cyril, as Jason put it, like I don't care, like sorry, but I do think it's an incredible story.
Let's take a quick break and then we'll be right back before.
Y m h.
And we're back.
Jason, you raised a great point that I really wanted to ask you about earlier. Would the Empire of one if they had been more patient, like is the gold massacre the critical misstep that it then goes on to ignite the rebellion as not to not to.
Coach up, the not to coach up if I had orchestrated the this is.
That said, not not saying you're doing, but that said.
I think what what is fascinating to me about about the massacre and about this is.
What's the rush?
Guys?
Why you need the Death Star for what?
Like? What problem is the Death Star solving that the fleet can't solve? And I would argue again not to not to coach up the empire. But had they gone slower? And I think this is in part a function of the structure and culture of the empire, with all these lap dogs all the way up to Palpatine just looking to please their master Krenic. I'm under I must go faster, mof Tarkan.
I must go faster.
I must please the Emperor. You know, I think if they had gone slower and taken more time, I think maybe they win.
I think I think maybe they have all of all empires.
Like that's why I about to say, the only thing that the greed cannot help but topple itself, like the the the graphs, the firm graphs cannot help, but like crush and stuff, okay, everything it tries to touch. I don't know if there's even if they crawl, you're going to eviscerate an entire plant. Now you might do ovisterate
this planet and not have an immediate rise of action. Galactically, perhaps they could have stuffled that out sooner, but really it's just mod getting what like two inches ahead of them, like two seconds to say, hey the emperor did this. That really allows forward momentums. I don't I don't know. I think the all empires are doomed eventually.
Well yeah, but there's a difference between like, you know, five hundred years and five I think, you know, like and these guys electrily.
Like one.
I and I think that they're I think that I think the Death Star in and of itself is like a huge mistake and was a vanity project and ego project to say, like we've got the biggest gun in the galaxy and when you really look at it for what was necessary for what you have the Senate you already age doing genocide easily. Galactic system is completely under your control. The media, the galactic media completely under your control. You have despite this nascent rebellion.
That is.
Very courageous.
But like I bet you, like you could find some independent statistician in the in the galaxy right now to say, okay, like what are they really what are they really doing?
You know what I mean?
Like a propaganda army.
Yeah, you've got a propaganda arm You've got a justice system for that reason, why do this? And I think it was the shock of this and Mon's courage and the courage of all the rebels in the face of this that allowed everybody to wake up, because I think there's an argument that if they go if like the boiling the frog in the water, if they step it up, people will just be like, you know what, I don't like the empire. This sucks, but I'm not looking for to get killed, you know.
Yeah. I think my brain like was melting in my head as I realized just how not relevant to real life this is this hundred days last hundred days of speeding through destroying democracy. I'm like, that was like melting
my brain because Jason, You're absolutely right. Aboo, how does the balance between these huge intergalactic political conversations and questions about the empire and their efficiency merge in this three episodes with the kind of heart of the show with bix and and or like, did those big swings work for you? Because it's very tonally different. But I think it landed.
Yeah, I think it absolutely landed. And before I get to that, I do want to offer up a potential answer to Jason's question why did the empire rush here? I think perhaps in a addition to normal bureaucratic like I gotta suck up to the boss in front of me and always have something like exciting and new to report. It's boring if credit goes to the ghost of Palpi and is like, yeah, things are slow and steady. Just hang tight.
It's gonna take.
This is like a it's a very long term, fifteen year plan. I need you to hang tight, Like to be real, Like, nobody at their job can go to their boss and like say that enough times before their boss is like, so nothing.
Is happening, and you're like it is it just has to be so we do we They do have the time constraints of the story as it was in nineteen seventy seven and before.
So I do like that absolutely, But I think there it also speaks to a culture of arrogance within the empire, like you do could to control the media, you do control the biggest fleet in the entire galaxy. Who cares about these rebels, Like we'll just crush them, It'll just be a blitz on the radar, and we're just so big and unstoppable. Uh, And maybe it speaks to a little bit of arrogance on about Palpatine as well, like he almost single handedly toppled a republic, getting wiped out
the Jedi quote unquote wiped out the Jedi. So what are a couple of like rich French Gorman is going to do to him?
You know?
So I think that top level arrogance might maybe seeps down to lieutenants and then subordinates and then all the way down to folks like Dadri and Carrel. This idea that like we're unstoppable, we are the machine. What are a couple of rebels.
Going to do?
And so, yeah, if we want something, we just take it. There's no need to go slow and easy and worry about any outside agitators actually endangering us. But I think overall, the politics of the show combined and contrasted with the very personal stakes for and Or and Bix. To get to your question, Rosie, that absolutely works for me because I think the show brilliantly does here's large scale, and here's how the large scale affects the person and the
personal and the interpersonal. And so you know, as we see over the arc of these three episodes, like the heartbreaking decision that Biggs makes and how that affects and Or, like, none of that has to do with I mean, of course it does have to do with the big picture empire stuff, but that is two people figuring out a relationship and their current circumstances, and both of those things hit just as hard, which is brilliant.
Let's talk about that, because there's a conversation a little bit in our discord about about whether or not about this idea that there's there's a discussion about whether the show is kind of having it both ways, both saying community is important in the face of oppression, you know, grassroots connections between people, but also that relationships are going to get broken, like you can't you have to break up.
You can't be in love and also be a rebel.
I disagree with that.
I disagree on several fronts.
Because I think listen, I think, I think the with love and respect, with love and respect, I disagree. I think the continuing escapades of Will in his uh in his various passions, direct objection to.
He's falling in love, He's happen some ride, He's a functioning user.
Yeah, this guy is having so I I disagree with that, but I but I understand the I understand the the notion, and I think it's part of it is just like the human objection to the idea that we want Cassie and and Bix to be together, right and they and they don't end up being together at least at the end of these episodes. And I think that is hurtful to people. But I wanted to get people's take about how can you can you can you have a really when you're in a rebellion, when you're in a war?
Can you juggle personal relationships and this larger struggle?
I want to throw it back to our girl Marva, Yes, and conversations she had with Cassie in where he was like, but I'll worry. She's like, that's just love, dear, There's nothing you can do about that. I think if you feel this way, the show's doing a great job of making you love and fall in love with these characters,
and not seeing them together is tremendously awful. And I also think if you're a Star Wars fan, you are used to love winning the day, and so perhaps that's a little bit of an adjustment for you in this series. I think loving acts don't always feel loving, And I think when we talk more about the role the Force is playing in this series, we can delve a little bit more into Bigs's decision at the end. But I was like, just genuinely, I think love is what is
keeping all of this together. I don't think the show is telling you you can't have love. I think the show is saying love is often comes from a point of sacrifice. Yeah, it comes to and if you have really great parents who at all have had to struggle in their life, you'll completely understand this perspective of like they they lose a lot in order to give you something.
All the entirety of the rebellion is an active love to the entirety of the galaxy to say what we want is the thing that Andor's repeat, Oh, the guys is so brilliant. I don't know if you guy's going back and watch season one at all, but in the first three episodes, and Or is constantly like, I don't know what to do. I mean literally, like every every scene I think ends with him being told by another person, here's what you're gonna do next, and then he goes
and does it. And in these episodes he's like, I just I want to make my own decisions, and like, that's literally what we're fighting for her. That is the whole point of us being here is so that everyone can make their own choices.
I also think that the love thing is really interesting because we do see Star Wars as love. Concerzole you, even if you fall in love with your sister, don't worry, She'll fall in love with someone else and that won't be weird, Anna, like love is, you know, love is a tangible thing. I love the EU. I have my Star Wars you books back there. There's so much marriage, so much love, so much personality and kind of fire found through those relationships. What I think and on does
it's pretty fantastic is by show Joelle. I agree with everything that you said, Like I think Bix is making the sacrifice out of love. But what I think is really interesting is they also represent like Theirdra and Cyril as like, guess what, sometimes love is actually massively fucking dysfunctional and does not save everything. Those who didn't decide because they were in love that they had to, you know,
love concazole, let's escape, let's get off. Though I do believe Cyril would have done that honestly because he was a symp for Deirdre. But like they didn't come together. Love is almost neutral in that space. It didn't make it worse. Maybe their behavior actually got worse because they met each other, you know, and she was able to use a tool Cyril as a tool because of his love. So I think something that the show does that's really brave.
There's showing us different kinds of love and not kind of fitting into that idea of love will save the day. But in some cases it can. And Biggs's choice, as we know from watching Rogue, is a key choice and is the reason that it ends up the death start
ends up being able to be destroyed. And I just think that there's so much intrinsic complexity in their representation of love that we often don't get in your classic happily ever after style, which is, by the way, a story that I love story trope, I love, I love
reading happily ever after romances. But I think that just as the rest of the show is very complex the representation of love and what it means to love and whether you're a found family or you're loving someone just because they're in the same situation as you, I just think they really did something profound with it that until you were kind of talking about Joel, I didn't really clock on too just how much the dead rassyrial stuff is kind of a refutation of the idea that if
you're in love, you're somehow pure, which I think is interesting.
I completely agree.
I also think the show is not saying there's only one way to be a rebel, and that and that you must sacrifice a B C D in order to check the boxes of Okay, now you are a rebel, now you are casting it, or I think that's you know, we have seen I believe YouTube Jason and Rosie said this in your recaps, but the show has continuously showed us how the little guy, the normal person can do.
The small, tiny thing.
Yeah, yeah, exactly to how did you put it?
Gum up this come up the system? I think you and that you know that hotel attendant might have like a wife and kids or something like he maybe he didn't give up love, but he still participated in his own small way, and I would consider him just as much a rebel as I would consider bix or and Or or any or sent or any of the others who have sacrificed many things. And I think the show,
I think it comes back to sacrifice. Joelle, you put it perfectly like the show is displaying on screen, like the types of sacrifice big and small, personal and profound that are necessary to get a rebellion against a machine like the Empire off the ground and into a place where you have a base on Yevin and can go public and give a speech in front of the Senate. And in order to get there, some folks like and
Or will sacrifice a lot. Some folks like the hotel attendant will sacrifice in their own way, but everyone will sacrifice something at.
Some level, what does Lucent say everything in his original speech, and then again when Cassian visits him in appropriately in the middle of the night, breaking all the rules, he's like, it's just everything, this is everything. So yeah, I do think the show is kind of stating that, like it true, rebellion is worth the risk of everything, But it's also asking you to make some pretty intense decisions about like where is that line? And it's sort of everywhere for
each individual, but it's different. Vermon is different from Kathy into your point of boots. Rebellion looks different for a lot of different people, but none of it is by the wayside.
Well, I was just going to say, I think that.
In a.
Kind of zoomed out way, the difference between the empire and the rebellion is this idea of these two systems. One this idea of communal sacrifice for the greater good, where here's a goal that must be achieved freedom and for everyone in the galaxy, a return to a more equal system, and that means I have to give up something. And the imperial system, which is basically order at the cost of you all out there bear the worst brunt of everything, and we all inside the system benefit.
We pay none of the costs. We give up nothing.
We give up none of our security, we give up none of our freedom, we give freedom within the system, we give up none of our comforts, we give up none of our luxury, and we put all the cost of maintaining this on everybody who disagrees with us, and everybody who.
Is outside this circle.
And I think, to me, that's kind of the at the core the difference between these two ideas, Rosie, what were you going to say?
Oh, that's real as hell, and it actually leads in perfectly what I wanted to talk about is like, I love this notion and we've talked about it a lot in the group chat of like what does it take to make a rebellion? And I think that these three episodes really lean into that tension between like the scrappy day one resistance like can we do it? And the growing legitimate rebel alliance. We see it so we see it with mon Mathma, we see it with and Or, we see it with the big change that we will
get to talk about with Mod's speech. So how did that hit for you, Joelle? Getting to see all these different parts, the sacrifice, the clothes maker, that someone who probably like dons your socks and somebody who makes a Molotov cocktail, Like, what was it, Like, what spoke to you about that aspect?
With these episodes, I think there's like no space where this is more profound than just the singing of like their national anthem on gorn exactly that part. I think the like it leads right off from the speech the the guy who started it from last week. You know, they're at the table. He's like, hey, like, nothing else matters except the fact that we're gorn. Like I don't care if you're like launching bottles or or like if you want to be throwing pedals, It doesn't matter to me.
We have to do it together. And I think sort of seeing these like that entire group of extremely passionate people who are just so determined to protect their community, who feel that the only thing they have is their voice, and watching them be snuffed out, like I think, like it is genuinely like a chilly experience, and yet it's also like the ways they come together at the end of that to escape try to protect each other from the KT units when they come out, Like there's something
really profound about that And if you couple it with going to the rebel base and seeing them like try to keep Cassie and that there, like, yeah, you have to follow orders. You're like, listen, you already know where I stand. When you start telling me orders, I'm done And they're like, gud, that time is coming whether you like it or not, because we have to be organized, which goes back to what Luther was saying last week about you know, I need you to be thinking like
a leader, like further ahead. And what I what I find really great about what these episodes have done is they pushed every everybody had to be pushed to greatness from a space of like desperation and that kind of drive on your penultimate episode, odes, I mean really like I feel on pins and needles waiting for next week's episodes, especially because we know they're going to lead into directly into Rogue one. Uh, you're kind of like we I know we're jumping a year, but like, what what's left?
Like who's here, who's gonna survive? We feel pretty confident Luthn has been telling us he's gonna.
Die, Like, no spoilers, baby, it's happening. I'm dying.
Death is imminent for me, and so I think what it has done seeing all these folks answer your question is like it's made the rebellion more tactile. And I think it's also burst open the world quite a lot in that now when you revisit Star Wars, you're not even just looking for like it used to be. Okay, you could be a pilot, you could be a Jedi, you could be a Sith, or you could be part of the like senate. Yeah, those are the wings you
could occupy. But now it's like you want to be a hotel clerk because he was fine.
I feel like Disney ironically is solving a problem for themselves with that, because if you recall the the ill fated Galactic star Cruiser experiment, you know where you could choose to be. They only really understood two different aspects of the story, which was you can be on side with Chewbacca or you can try and catch Chewbacca as a Nazi, and you can dress up in these costumes.
And I think because for a lot of people, the good bad notion of Star Wars is very clear and has been very clear for a long time, that didn't sit well. I think when it comes to immersing people in options that they have kids who watch and or I want to watch this show when I was ten, Like I liked long I like long winded ass boring ship. And I'm not saying that that's what this is, but I'm saying like it er me up in a good way.
Aaron was like, wait a minute, ros I'm you Aaron, whack them alling you call we get over the hype. But like, I think the idea that like a kid or a younger person watching this, or a fifty year old person watching this who has never really thought outside of like bad he's bad, and good he's good. I think there's an incredible space where you could see yourself in the hotel clerk. You could see yourself as the
person coming up the machine. That's always what Rogan did well to me, and I think this expands that in such an incredible way.
That's a great point, Rosie. I think a lot of what we're responding to is like the the transition of Star Wars from purely a spectator sport to the kind of thing that you could imagine taking part in, you know, beyond the kind of like childhood fantasy of like having the force and I'm having a calling. Yeah, I'm glad we're calling out the hotel clerk. And also, you know we should call out the workers in the Senate House who like were like I don't know where you know.
That made me like like fucking warm.
It's and it's the government first episode.
We don't know what happens to her. Did she die? Yes, she made that choice to walk with and or and she helped make this happen.
It's spanning.
It's this is really the first time in Star Wars where in one selection of episodes or one self contained bit of story, you can see the entire breath of the rebellion from the grassroots people like the hotel clerk, all the way up to General Draven mon Mathma. And I mean, the other thing that's really notable about these episodes is this is the final death of authentic senatorial politics in the galaxy.
This is like the end.
This is the end of the illusion that the Senate does anything, Like we're doing away with that now. It doesn't do anything. It's just a figlely for the empire. And the way this show connects that idea to the kind of struggle that's going on within all of these characters to decide to either go along with what's happening or do the right thing.
Is is really profound. Let's take a quick break and then we'll come back.
And we're back.
Let's talk about the tensions now that are quite clear between these day one rebels as you put at rosy Cassian and the rest and the kind of dispersed cells saga eras you know upstart, he's got activists, that's resistance activists and the now ascendant authentic rebellion of real politicians, actual professional military people who are trying struggling to kind of wrangle control from a bunch of folks who have, buy necessity, been acting independently of any kind of outside control.
What were your How did that hit you? Aboo? How did that hit you?
I was it was very satisfying for me to see how organized things have become on yab and as a as a type a person who loves a spreadsheet and can't wait to color code things. Draven being like, you got a log where.
This ship is going? Okay, did you submit the forms or not?
I was like, yes, please, thank you. Someone is finally saying it, and honestly, somebody like Cassian would be my personal nightmare in the rebellion, you know, like and I'd be like logging everything meticulously and everything would be color coded, and then Cassian would just like go somewhere without telling me and.
It and You'd be like that it would be like an administrative.
Mess for me.
You know, Draven would be breathing down my neck. But that tension I think is really lovely to see in the show because we are seeing the transition, we are seeing the growing pains that come with that. We're no longer in the wild West phase of the rebellion, and we are moving now into the more organized, formalized, and very public rebellion that we can get entire planets. We can convert entire planets to our side.
You know.
We no longer have to find the random spy hidden away on a planet to hire and have have work for Luthans.
We're past that stage.
So I really like seeing that tension. I also really admired cashand for being like, fuck you, I've done so much, Like you.
Don't need to tell me what to do.
I think that's the most powerful shit is like these are real no based on real life, but these are real quandaries that people have about where their role is in a rebellion, and also like what is the acceptable face of a rebellion, and also like what counts as self defense and what counts as terrorism? And I think a lot of these questions are brought up in this show in a way that does make it feel like they were writing it yesterday. And I just honestly was
kind of blown away with that. It's kind of very real to like the anarchists who may be at a protest, who don't show their faces, who are willing to like throw a brick or something, to the non profit versions of activist groups that have to make it seem like, hey, we want to work within the system we have. You know, it's it's really, really.
Really And I think that structure that's a lovely point, Rosie, because I think that structure is necessary to legitimize, legitimize your cause, yes, and to legitimize the public face of your cause. You will not convert a galaxy kind a bunch of spies operating in small cells and Luthen having like unchecked power.
I really loved the interaction.
Between Luthen and Mon, where Mon is like, I'm more afraid of you right now than anyone else really, And it's because luthen Can could never be the face of this rebellion and someone like him and.
The rebellion can never exist. And yet full circle exactly.
And both of those things are true.
It's and I really liked very rare, very rare for.
A show to want to get into the the in depth, like almost inside baseball workings of what it takes to make a rebellion. And I think that's another reason why it feels like so prescient.
I think another thing that was just really intriguing to me about this episode is this is the first time we see the rebellion start to craft a narrative, a myth of its own existence in a way that you know, I think, in other our worst properties you would associate with imperial activity.
Here's the lie. It was our elite heroes of Gold Squadron that.
Swept Mond off of Coruscant to safety. Now we know from that's from the rebel ship, right.
And definitely didn't kill an innocent taxi driver that you know, definitely.
And had nothing saying because he was.
There's a moment though, where they cut back to him as he's listening to mon a moth of speech where I couldn't quite tell if he was like, wait for real, Yeah, wait is it We're the bad It almost look like he was having a We're the Batties moment, but he was also coiffeused and also it's way too late, like size have been drawn. But it was interesting. Again, I think just to see the humanity of people awakening to what is real and what's puzzle. Yeah, like that throughout
the series of episodes was really palpable. It made it feel like, oh, the rebellion is happening, yes, and I think when you already know the timeline, like, that's a really clever way to make it more alive for foobole.
Let's talk about that a little bit because we didn't get into this in the recap, so basically we are all Rebels stands. As you guys know, the animated series Rebels one of the biggest kind of recon movements in Star Wars that basically reintroduced people to the prequels and set up a lot of stuff that we'd never seen outside of the EU Expanded Universe novels. So there was a lot of discussion in our group chat that's how you know we were nerds. This was not even in
the discord. We're messaging each other and we're like, guys, so what does this mean for the canon because mon Mathma made a different speech. So in Entertainment Weekly, that's how Big Star Wars is now, this is where the scoops are going. Tony Gilroy basically explained the change and said, we are hijacking Cannon. In Cannon, she is rescued by the Gold Squadron and the speech that they gave in the cartoon, which was a canonical show, is on that ship.
And his brother Danny was like, do I have to stick to this fucking speech as it that's a direct quote. As it turns out, they found a way that they didn't have to, which is basically the conclusion we came to in our group chat was basically like Cassian does his rescue, she does the speech, evades Bale's corrupted squadron, he delivers them to the safe house, but their Gold Squadron pick her up as they hinted, and she does the speech that we see in Rebels.
Right from the ship. From the ship, and so she does.
Make that speech, it's just not the speech which I think is very interesting in this show because they have also done that with the Gorman Massacre, which in Expanded Universe was a talking massacre that had happened for a long time and was kind of referenced. But what they did with this is they now have two Gorman massacres, and the one that everyone says is the one that sparked the rebellion is no longer talking, you know, landing on a bunch of people. It is now this version
that we've seen an Andle. I think the way they're able to build in those moments is so fucking great, and so what we loved about Rogue one and the fact that they're able to do it in a way that's still respectful to the cartoon which did so much work, but also you know, makes sense within the law that Tony Gilroy is building here where kind of everything that you think you know about the original Star Wars movies is fake, Like there's a whole different layer to it.
The thing I love about the way that Rebels episode Secret Cargo works together with this story with and Or is I now perceive the Rebels episode to be like the propaganda version.
Yes, that's powerful, and I.
Guess what I wanted to get at is this is another decision that to me, the leaders of the rebellion I assume, have to take in full humility.
When do we lie?
The empire lies? The Empire is lying about everything. The Empire is lying about Gorman. The Empire is lying, you know, about what they're doing on Gorman, about who started the mask or etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. And you could spread that out across the galaxy. When is it okay? And I think this is okay? What the what the what the rebels have done? But I but it's not a decision to be taken lightly. When is it okay to say, you know what, let's lie.
Here because.
We need to do this in order to bring people to our cause, to make us look more legitimate than maybe we actually are at the moment? How did how did you think about that decision? And how do you think about it?
Listen, Jason, not everyone watches c SPAN and when a message out in a quick, edible way like like Squadron, Yeah, saved man Mathma.
And they are a great rebellions.
We saved her life. Okay, we don't like what's good? And so I think like choosing a narrative that is easy to spread, quick to digest, and clearly it's true, is the message and point.
The true being like, hey, this guy just walked around shooting a bunch of people.
And it's like at least fifty Like it's not.
No one needs to know we would have let Ma Mathma die because we were too busy debating about should we send Cassie and out or not. No one needs to know what happens is we saved her. That's the message going for it. So yeah, it was. What was interesting to me, the most interesting is it's an echo
of what is and Or's future. Right, Andrew is going to die without anyone knowing what he has sacrificed and done to get to this point, and so it's interesting to see how he accepts that, right, because you don't get. All he get is that hug at the end, which is so beautiful and and like, while what a declaration of like love and reliance, whether it's romantic or not, there's clearly a I see you between the two of
them in that moment. So that's really great. But here we get she says, I don't know how to thank you for what you've done. We don't know how to thank Cassie and for what he's given us, and he says, just make it worth and it settles something in you about his eventuality. And I think that's very nice Dan to give us, to be like, he's okay with this outcome. This is what almost what he expects, and I think that's really lovely.
I agree, And before we jump to an ad break and then introduce our regular hate section with Aaron the Joelle talk a little bit about how that connects to the Force and the use of the Force in this show and specifically in these episodes.
As a long time Star Wars fan, I was also a very a huge fan of the Great Jedi. We don't have to go into all the war. All you need to know is there were people who were in the middle. There were people who were in the middle. They were in Jedies. They were said that they were in the middle.
It's not canon. Don't worry. We've been told many times, but I don't care.
I love it. And then uh, in Rebels, you get is it bought? Oh fuck? Why can't remember the giant guy's name? The monster dude. It'll come to me later. Doesn't ben do think new story with the be So then you get Bendu, who who has really profound things to say about you know, how the force disorder for everyone, and if you only see the good evil, you're missing the bigger picture. Okay, we get a lunch lady who can use a bit of power, not just to heal,
but to sort of see the future. I've been watching the prequels for a project I'm working on. This is a little bit, a little bit Anakin's power. He doesn't know what he's seeing, but he's seeing something that he knows to be true.
Very alphabe coded.
Absolutely as say listen, listen. This is the limitation of magic. It's why we get to use it in stories.
And so I.
I think to have this woman represent in such an almost casual way, like it's really it's it's so casual how they introduce her. It's it's, hey, there's a healer down here at your shoulders, not healing, I just want you to be better. And he's so terrified of anything that looks like faith. Again, another great insight insight into Cassian.
Cassian believes what he can do, he knows what he can make real and that's his reality, and so to interject anything outside of that is genuinely terrifying for him. I think this is the cruxt of faith as it exists in our world, whether you believe in it in
anything or not. What you can know is the impact of people who have faith, right, the impact of faith on people who do possess it, And to see it in Bis in this way, this beautiful, beautiful way of her being like, Hey, I'm feeling and seeing and understanding that your role in this, this cause I believe in is so important. I cannot be a distraction to you.
And she does it completely on faith. I mean, it's the action of faith to say I have no idea what's gonna happen to you, and I don't know what's gonna happen to me. But in order for you to focus on what I know to be good and true and right, I have to leave you. I couldn't believe because, I mean, this whole time, I've been afraid they were just gonna kill Bicks. I thought she's dead. We know he sacrifices everything, but the sacrifice was not one of death.
It was a choice to give you space and time to do the job you were put on this earth to do. The Force being more than just a magical power the ability to bring us spoon to yourself from across the room, but to be something that you not just inertily feel, but that you trust and depend on without any kind of proof.
Wow.
Wow, I feel like the Force is always being explained to us. There's Medchlorians. There's always been this real push to be like, this is what the Force is, and we're really defining to just let us lay back in the cut and feel it and experience it with two people who we deeply love, where this decision hurts us, but we also ultimately know it's the right one, Like that is the profound use of your pen to bring and and it's the lynchpin. This is what makes this show star Wars.
This is it.
If you ever were watching Cassie Andor and you were like, this doesn't feel quite like Star Wars. It's got the Star Wars background, but this is it. You can't it can't be argued anymore. It's Star Wars, and it's so firmly rooted in the legacy and Lord that we love while also pushing it forward and growling it up I'm amazed. I'm amazed at what they were able to do.
What do you think about the lack of force or the kind of way Forth is portrayed in the show? How did that hit you?
I really don't want to follow up what Joelle just puts so beautifully, so I will just say here here I agree completely.
Yeah, Yeah, it's puff.
That was incredibly well put.
I want to quickly return to the to the idea about lying for what you believe in which the rebellion is doing here with their propaganda campaign to make a gold Squadron the acceptable face of rebellion, understanding that like it's either Cassian Saw or the heroes of Gold Squadron, and we have to go with Gold Squadron because it's something I've been thinking about too, you know, as I understand that this is a show disconnected from all events, but.
As you as you know, unless that's six thous as I watch.
Establishment politicians like who I would ostensibly vote for usually and.
Normal times kind of cut away from.
Minority community after a community because like it doesn't poll well, or because like it doesn't Hey, it looks like we lost that argument with like mainstream America. I've increasingly wondered, like why not lie about it? You know, like, yeah, if you believe in something, and if you come to the you know, I'm talking for me personally, like to come to a place where like, Okay, I've I've looked at it, I've studied my heart, my feelings. I think
that supporting this group of people is right. And if the whole world, or a majority of the world, or at least the portion of the world that is in power, says you can't do that, then why not lie about it? That's why I found this decision to be to you know, bury the scrappy, upstart face of the rebellion in favor of the more acceptable story that we can prepackage and sell to the galaxy in order to hopefully win and
defeat this evil empire. I found it really affecting because I think it's it is you know, it's something I think about, like, if you truly believe you're right about something, and telling a lie is how you get there. It's not your first choice, but you kind of should do it, even though it's it's not well by by the by the letter of the law what you should be doing.
Yeah, yeah, generally I agree but just to hypothetically play the devil's advocate.
I do.
Worry that that's a slippery slope because sure, Cassine, Cassine is maybe one skeleton you can put and say, okay, but how many closets do you continue to put away in your closet before before you are just the empire? Because the Empire, that's that's the best right the same way, we believe we're doing the right thing and we just have to get the messaging right. So what if we have to lie a little bit along the way, like just why about Gorman?
You know, like that's why that's I mean, I completely agree with you, which is why, you know, when we're talking about Dedra and Cyril and talking about this, I try to stress like humility because I look at Cyril and Dedra and I go, that could easily be any of our heroes if things had been a little bit different, if they had been a little bit less curious.
If you were orphaned, and instead of Marv finding you, the Empire finds you, which is what happened to Dedra. So there's that's reflection there. I also think that you hit on a really interesting and complex point, Jason, because the reality is as is in real life and is in this show that's not connected to real life. The other side is already lying, like extensively to get what they want done. And I boo, I think you're completely right.
The question is how many times can you lie or how many times can you tell your version of the truth before that slippery slope where suddenly forced.
To use the tools of my oppressor exactly a thousand.
Yes, yes, and it's either and it's lies in the kind of abstract sense in this episode, and it's also in the very concrete sense reawakening K two s O as a tool for rebellion.
Yes, yes, I calm believe we didn't even talk about him.
We don't get I think we'll get to talk about him more and upcoming around tables at least.
That's the.
Let's take a quick break and sound the imperial claxon because the Emperor's shuttle is landing.
And they're letting him out and he's here. He's gonna be after the break, so.
Listen after the break, Yeah, okay, and we're rack bomb bomb.
Bum bum bum bum bum.
He's doing his hair, he's stretching, he's ready to tell us this show is not as good as you think it is, and we want to hear about it.
Aaron Emperor is coming here.
Team Yeah, Look, I love these three episodes of the Book of Boba Fat. I'm sorry, sorry, and or and or season two not.
I guess up sometime you want to get told off.
But I do think there's there's something before we start we're talking about the show that just reminds me a lot of talking about sports teams, and Jason, you'll you'll know this, especially right now. You know you have a game, you have the Thunder losing to the to the Nuggets, and fans of the Under are going to say, don't worry, that was a weird game.
They're going to come back from it.
Fans of the Nuggets are going to say, no way, like you guys couldn't stop Jokic and like we had bad games from other players.
It's over.
And then you you talk yourself into whatever argument you want. And I think we're kind of in this place where the four of you love Rogue One, you love the first season of this show, and there's a lot of things, there's a lot of things that I think you are forgiving in this show. You don't forgive an other shows for instance. Okay, first of all, I just want to ask is the show helped or hurt by the fact that it is Star Wars. I know, you just went
on this long monologue about the Force. I personally seeing the X Wings go and the tie Fighters that was cool. I loved when the X Wings are in that opening shot in the seven and the Tie Fighters going overhead the plaza in Gorman like that was very menacing. The Force Healer did nothing for me. I thought it was wild.
You are forced.
Hey, you know what, this doesn't surprise me. This done dun dun, dun sur me Because Aaron, you don't like Grogue one, right, which is fine, that's your prerogative, but that has one of the most nuanced, unbelievable explorations of what is the Force? Who gets to be a Force user?
Is the Force?
Just blind faith? And so if you don't like Grogue, you probably don't like this part of the Force, which I do think worked for me. But also I would say generally, I think it is helped by being a Star War because one, this is the best thing you can do with an ip is to make it something that makes people engage with stories in a way they
haven't before. It's what they did with Watchmen, which was an unbelievably complex situation when it came to adapting it, but they made something that expanded the world and got a ton of different people to watch it to learn about historical things that really really happened and that a lot of Americans did not know. And I think that right now it being Star Wars helps because I think the ships and the pupew and the Stormtroopers get people in and then hopefully they can learn something from it.
Coming up a machine, the importance of like allowing somebody to grow on their own. So I think it I think it is helped by being Star Wars because it would.
Never have gotten It is helping because it's Star Wars and we see Stormtroopers and we're like, yeah, I can get into that. Or is it hurt by the fact that we have a side plot featuring Sagarera, who I hated in Row one and I hate here and Saw and Will goes to hang out with Saw and then he comes back and he's basically the same, except he's more.
Loyal to losing.
No no, no, I saw this. I saw this lie that you put in the disco Will Will is still hopping the rideo bro. You don't need to see it because that motherfucker looking fuss.
Okay, So this is another conversation here.
You all have forgiven everything that happens offscreen in this show in a way you don't in other things.
So many things are being done on screen.
The show.
I will just say that that is like a very circular argument.
To me.
It's like saying, well, you like you hate boiled chicken, but you love fried chicken.
Yeah.
Like, I like stories when they're good, and this is a good one.
And does this story contain elements where in other less well executed stories, I go, that's boring, that stupid.
Nothing so but of course, of course, but I just feel like this is a well done story and a very you know, like this is a high degree of difficulty, and is it made easier more palatable? Does the medicine go down smoother because it star wars? Of course, but still this is to me a really well done tail, really exceptionally well done.
I also think the structure allows for you you like, whereas sometimes like the show is continuous, I don't want to have to guess at things. The time that you've spent and the time that you're showing me. You should have highlighted that. But when you have year gaps and you're only spending three days, the structure sort of lends itself to allowing you to sort of have that lean in.
So I'm okay.
If they chose this structure, it wasn't mandated by law. They don't get bonus points.
Shows everything you don't.
Show because the structure.
You pitch your structure, and the structure looks, then that's good.
If you pitch your your take would be, your take would be, it would be better if it was like the seven days leading up to mon Mathma's speech.
No take would be that would be good to me. Let's not make this be three day packets all at once. Now, this three day packet is incredibly important and I loved, so I will okay. Episode eight I like was in shock. I loved episode e. I texted you a joke that I loved it. It gave it an a plus because of the little clacks and handheld devices.
Those are amazing. I was all in on that.
You give me a funny musical instrument, and I'm in But I just think that the brutal adherence to three days and then nothing and then three days is a little silly along the lines of things that are solved off screen. Daredevil, Born Again, Flawed Show, Not Perfect. We all talked about how Muse shows up as this incredible hand to hand fighter, and it's like, oh wow, okay, I guess like we just handwave that he had a
taekwondo instructor. Here Cyril goes from Cyril's like number one image is him lying face down on the bed because his mommy was mean to him, and now all of a sudden he's hand to hand beaten the shit.
At a cassion, I think.
That this is not an organized fight. If he had a bombing ring and he was like dodging and weaving, that I would agree with you. There these hands, You're right, You're right. Because and Or was not focused hand or he is, he was not in the battle.
He was totally confused and shocked, and and Siril was the one that was really on top of Oh wait around at.
You in a rage air. I was gonna say, matter how skilled they are, you are going to have to like you're gonna livet and Cassian is not, from what we've seen, an amazing like hand to hand fighter. He's a spy, he's hide and he's Duckey's even he's shooting. We don't know what kind of hands Cassian has already don't seem like in a life where you had to grow up and learn how to fight. I'm fine with this.
What what's the Sagarera issue?
I just I thought Saw in Rogue one, I was just in a different movie and they didn't do it for me, and he didn't do it for me. Last batch, I felt like that was this show has taken people and put the and bench them in weird spots like I think in the first batch, Cassian being on Yavin with the poorly assembled rebels was something I didn't need.
I understand it shows that like rebel certaincies are not perfect on day one and there's infighting in there are issues, but it tells that in other ways throughout the story. I didn't need Cassian on that planet. It just felt like we need to delay him getting home to Bix and said we're gonna do it this way Saw like Will being Withsaw.
I just didn't I didn't need it, dude, Aaron have you.
Ever considered being a movie exactly because I feel like you'd be given these notes and you're just mad, like I don't get it.
Start and then and my final thing about this episode is, wow, they really did bigs dirty. Tell me, like, what a lazy way to get her out of this her entire art she is literally.
Just accepting that she needs a bat at Chilla life and the and or couldnot be.
A part of it.
She's like, I'm out.
Bix's entire role in this season is to move along Cassian's plot. What are the monumental things that she does? She uh uh, she reads Luthen when he comes over one time. Oh wow, that's amazing. The second thing she does is she takes Cassian into the Force Healer. The third thing is Cassian leaves, and she's like, I will stay and talk to the Force Healer a little longer, and then she willingly takes herself out so that Cassian will stay in the rebellion.
Oh.
She also she did talk to Belle very briefly about Cassian, like.
Looking in surviving is not nothing. You have an addiction after being nearly being tortured, nearly killed, nearly raped, like run having to flee your home. What she did was survive and that's not a small thing, and it's a really challenging thing to do. And she did it not in a small way.
She does it in a way like a big way to move Cassian's plot for it. It's very important.
It's no, no, no, no, no no.
That's not about Cassian's plot at all. Like nothing that she does, it's about pushing Cassian forward. Everything she does, you should do that makes Cassie. You can make cassim I will.
From a structural point of view, he's continuously being taken away from her, moving him in a direction, like everything that happens between them is him very reluctantly separating from her, like her moving his plot along would be okay, you know, now he has to go on the Bix mission or do the Bix thing, and that really does just that never happens.
But I like, I'm not invalidating your perspective.
Yes, your perspective is valid. But what I love most about this is that before we came on to record this, you were like, Adria, she's gonna get an Emmy.
So you're like, you think I was joking because they give her.
Just say one Let me just say one thing, because this is d That's something I've noticed. This is something I've noticed from various critiques of various shows, shows with large casts, as and Ord has.
And I It's it's kind of like the the critical.
Version of like a participation trophy, this idea that every single character in every show has to have this like heroic ride into the sunset, like we go to Valhalla arc. When to me it's like, does the story work like you can put yeah, I can pick things out.
Did I want to know more about like this character?
Yeah? Sure?
But like does to me it's like does the tapestry work?
Not?
Do I want more from one particular character or not?
I also think that ironically, I mean, what Aaron is calling out is like a systemic issue within all storytellings there are women. But what I will say, I think that what makes this different, and this is important, she is not the only woman. There are multiple different versions of how men are living in the rebellion. On mamm Mathma's daughter, you also have a Dina who we now see. I think that where the onus of representation on characters.
I think that Bix gets to just survive and be like I'm leaving because she she's lived the world and she's not the only woman in the story. So I don't think it's like she doesn't feel to me as someone who is like the real you know what, the real truth is if they wanted to push Cassian along, they would have just killed her. That's the classic Fridging way.
I think this way, she's actually doing the opposite of what Cassian wants, which could tear him away from the rebellion as it is, because now he has to make that choice, you know. So I think that I think that I understand your critique, but I also don't necessarily see it in.
The same I mean, the show has incredible women. I mean Claire mon Mathma. I love Clayre's evolution into the set, like the long hair and suddenly she's not just like hiding behind Luthen and she's like doing stuff.
Yeah, people are like, is claar like secretly like a sith?
Like what is up with this sick dri.
Like she came out long enough. She yes, I know how to dress.
She's like, this is the role of two me and Mike.
It's like looking looking cool as hell. Okay, Aaron best you did mention, And I think this is important because it is fun to be a hater and we all love to hate on stuff. But you mentioned the episode eight was good for you, so could you talk a little bit about what worked and why it stood out someone?
Episode eight turned my emotion on immediately and ratcheted up the entire time. This episode built in a way that I was not expecting, Like I felt like this, this insurrection, this rebellion, this riot, this massacre is happening. The use of the chanting, the use of then transitioning that to singing again, like the the fucking sound of every single shot that's made in the very beginning, when the K two droids come out and kick the fucking stanchion into
the first person like it. Eight was incredible, and nine does that in a similar way, but not in a physical warfare way, but with this political although I do. It's one of my notes, one of my notes for nine. There is my note for nine is how much it must suck to be the people in the Senate on the bottom row where you're just looking up at the Senate seats above you the entire time in your Yes the Street episode seven, eight and nine are amazing.
I loved them.
I just want to you know, I just want to come in here and make sure that we're not like giving this show a free pass on everything.
I remind me. You remind me of my friends.
You remind me of my friend's dad whose favorite show is Breaking Bad, but he rewatches Breaking Bad by fast forwarding all the domestic scenes and only watching the shoot incredible.
Beha, I do Skyler blah blah blah.
I have been known to flight. I will watch Pacific rim and just fast forward to the monster fights. So that is that checks out.
Basically, Aaron is just setting himself up for his inevitable tofah grace style and or super Just like that's it.
Like, what did we need the rest of it for?
Well, honestly, I will say they said it was like a movie, and us Joel said, one of the best Do Wars movies we've ever seen is these three chapters.
Yeah, well, Emperor Aaron, it was delightful to have you with us, the super producers of Boo and Joel as well as always delightful to hear your perspectives. Coming up on Extra Vision on Tuesday, we're diving into the last of US episode five. On Wednesday, we have a recaps of the series finale episodes of Landor, and of course we returned to the roundtable on Friday for our deeper reactions and conversations.
Will Aaron who.
Knows for this episode.
Thanks for listening.
X ray Vision is hosted by Jason steps Young and Rosie Knight and is a production of iHeart Podcast.
Our executive producers are Joel Monique and Aaron Kaufman.
Our supervising producer is Abu Safar.
Our producers are Common Laurent Dean Jonathan and Fay Wax.
A theme song is by Brian Vasquez, with alternate theme songs by Aaron Kaufman.
Special thanks to Soul Rubin, Chris Lord, Kenny Goodman and Heidi our Discord moderate them