Worrying.
Today's episode contains spoilers for episodes four through six of and Or season two, so be warned.
Hello, my name is.
Jason Concepcion and on Wedsday Night, and welcome back to ext revision of the podcast where we dive deep into your favorite shows, movies, comics of pop culture.
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Plus news and in today's news plus news. In today's episode, you loved it, and we're back. It's the round Table. We are convening the Jedi Council to break down the rather amazing episodes four to six of and Or season two. So we're bringing in the crew. Welcome, Joel and Naboo. That was not mental rhyme, but it did today. I love to have you back.
Well, we already did our recap, so let's get your initial reactions and Joel on episodes four, five, and six of and ORCS and two.
Joel, let's start with you.
Wow, what a show, guys. I was scared for these episodes because I was worried Bix was gonna be suffering the whole time, but they got us out at the end. I think the man Mathma and Crenic moment was maybe the best verbal spat we've had in Star Wars ever. It's so beautiful, like what a great breakdown of uh, the Resistance versus the Empire's like entire thought process and it's happening all while poor Cleya is like crushing her
hand open trying to get out. I do think I thought these episodes were a little slower, but I'm not mad at the pacing. Okay, hear me out. I've heard people be like, still, not a lot is happening, and I was like, okay, but also, you're learning about an entirely new world. You're getting great spy theatrics. And I do feel the pressure cooker of Rogue one building, and I think you kind of want to be the frog in the boiling water on that. You want to feel
a pressure slowly rise and the overwhelmed slowly happening. I think the key to that was Luthan being terrified losing his shit. For like Luman was cracking. He was like, why did we do that?
You made me?
You made me do it?
Like that?
That was great that that was a really cool moment.
Yeah, and it's such a key like insight to oh. Luvin is struggling to keep the rebellion going on his own. Everybody is desperate and separated. We don't have like our base yet. It's Mathma is still here. When is she going? We Mathma famously gives it like a great speech that kind of kicks off the rebellion. She's still in the Senate. I keep being like, get out, broken out, like if you feel that pressure. And for that reason, I think it's working and I'm okay with it, but we need
some action. I'm ready to get into it. Those are my thoughts, Aboo, what do you think?
I also loved the setup episodes. The show continues to get better and better for me. I was really really into the slow burned spycraft of at Home. I just love a cool guy being cool and spy crafty, and that was Cassie and Or for three episodes of this show, especially when he went to Gorman, when he was talking to the folks on Gorman, when Bell and Sinsa came in and did their like badass spycraft, like where the professional rebels you follow us? Can you follow orders? All
of that was just so fun to watch. I loved it, and at first I was going to come in here and say that Gorman was my favorite part of these three episodes. But I was going to say that, but Joel's giving me a look because that would be wrong.
I was locked in.
Every time we cut back to Corrussant as well, So okay, honestly, I was having a blast in these episodes. I enjoyed the slow burn of it all. I understand folks who might want the story to start catapulting forward and come towards some sort of conclusion, but I think things are happening. Buildings are being built on Gorman, Rebellions are like festering
on Gorman. Things are still happening, and I think we're headed toward I mean, we know we're headed toward Rogue one, but I think we're headed toward a fun conclusion to this show, and we just we just have to be along for the ride.
Yeah, I would also agree. I think you guys bring up some great points, but I think that people who are looking for something that isn't slow burn at this point are misunderstanding the point of this particular Star Wars story, because I think when you know all the great movies
that Jason has brung up his letterbox list. When we're looking at those kind of stories, stories about spycraft, stories about rebellion, revolution, they are often about the slow moments of the personal interactions and how we get that, how does this one person's impact change the space and the nature of the story. And we are very much in that with Rogue One, and I think that was my favorite thing about these these episodes.
Yeah, let's talk about Gorman. I think that I agree with what everybody's saying. Of course, is a lot of this is in the beholder. I I react to the story in a lot of the same way that Hemingway, in the same way that Hemingway describe bankruptcy, which is it happens very slowly than all at once.
To me, like the real.
The drama of Rogue One isn't like big battles and fights as quote something happening. It's people coming to terms with, Oh, there's no easy way out of this. There's no cavalry coming, there's no Jedi Nights coming to save us. I have to pick up a gun do something, and I'm not that person. And so that is tremendously dramatic to me, and that, to me encapsulates what's.
Going on in Gorman.
I think, Aboo, you're absolutely correct, Like, it's so thrilling to see Cassian in full spy mode pretending to be this kind of swashed way.
Also the full like visual change in his head. Yeah, because we haven't seen that. We haven't seen him in a costume before fashion.
Guy from season one. Like season one, Cassian could not be another person. He was so intent on clinging to his idea for very obviously reasons. He'd been ripped from his homeland, like he'd been in prison. I forgot. I went back and watched him on season one, and I forgot that Cassian was in prisoned from like thirteen to sixteen. Yeah, and then he lived through a rebellion only to learn that they were fighting each other. At the end of it.
They're like, we weren't fighting. It was just in fighting between ourselves. We all died. It was terrible. I think like this jump from in the first batch episodes, we get Cassie and is like the survivor, Like he's very much like, hey, guys should be collecting water. Yes, I will learn to fly this plane while it's in the air. It's fine. I've got it, like he's his tactical instincts
are great. We get the mental spy here, like he he literally transforms before the conversation in the cafe where he was like.
What are you doing, you moron? Don't come to her early? Like did you're lucky that I'm not that I am the person that you think I am, or because otherwise you like, get it together.
You amateurs.
Drawing attention.
Get that like I.
Saw them easily and the Empire will touch them easily at the same time, you know, so.
Let's talk about that.
I think what was surprising to me was Cassian's uh Cassie basically reading the Gorman front to Filth and saying, you know what, you guys waited too long. You're not fucking ready. You're all gonna get medacre. This is a suicide mission, and I'm out. I was surprised, particularly there's that wonderful emotion connection that he has with the Bell Hop where you can tell like there's a lot of stuff going on below the surface, where Cassian is responding
to this like terrible injustice that is happening. That energy that can go nowhere, but it needs to explode somehow, and he sees all of this and he just says, you know what, it's not professional enough for me. You guys aren't ready. And there's a debate between him and Luthen, where Luthen is like, one, they want to do it.
Two doesn't it benefit the rebellion overall to shock the galaxy if in fact, the Gormans are wiped out or massacred, if something terrible happens to Gorman doesn't wouldn't that shake the galaxy and wake them up from their slumber?
Wouldn't that help be the spark lights this whole thing?
And then you have the Gore in front themselves, who I think would admit, One, we're not ready. Two we waited too long. But how can we sit here and do nothing at this point? Like isn't it more important to fight and maybe lose and have history say they were an honorable people who try, who saw something terrible happen. They didn't just go quietly. So let's talk about that that.
How did you.
React to Cassian turning down the cores and what is like what is the way forward? Because my sense was that even Cassian at this point doesn't see it clearly enough, he doesn't see that there is no easy off ramp two away out of this galactic crisis. He thinks, Oh, if we just had like the most professional rebels, the best tactically sound, strategically smart rebellion, that's how.
We do this.
When Luthen is like, no, we're gonna get tremendously bloodied and we're going to have to and the Gores meanwhile, they're saying, well, it's our life, it's our planet, you know, we can do what we want. Yeah, so what what is the way forward here? And how did you react to this kind of ideological struggle? I think on the first watch, you're really like cassieh my god, like, what
are we doing here? Like you're supposed to be you're the rebel, Like you're the guy we're following to bat and you really feel for the leader who's like, you know, like you're not a revolutionary.
And I'm not fucking impressed. Okay, I loved it. But then on the second watch, I think covertly the best moment it's actually when Kathy and Luthern meet at Luthen's shop and Kathy and storms in there like that's the crux of all of like this batch of three episodes. But Luthen has this great line where he's like, is this everything? Like you abandoning the entire plan everything.
Because because I went and talked to Bix and you didn't know about it, and now you're mad, like.
On the phone, it's everything, and you have drawn a line in the sand. And that is really the difference here is to Luthen, everything is everything. There really is no end point to or there's nothing that would stop him from trying to achieve this goal of liberation. He'll give his He's already said he's gonna give his life. We know, we've known that since the end of season one. Lutheran's gonna die. He's prepared for it mentally, even though it seems as if he's he's terrified of it happening,
which is fair. You know, it's scary to die. But Cassian is an idealist, and Cassian, I think, believes so much in his ability to survive, and he survives by calculated movements that he doesn't see failure as a possibility because he won't entertain ideas that could possibly fail. And that's not everything that's really guarded and very safe I was.
To add to that. Cassian talks a lot in these episodes about his luck, and I think, to your point, Cassian takes calculated risks, and I think he's just a guy who feels like I could walk away from the table now up. Well, my luck is very thin at this point, and I don't know when it will run out, and I have bis to go home to. Whereas to your point, Luthen is, like I decided long ago, I'm giving it, I'm burning it all to bring down the empire.
Yeah, there's nothing for Luthen to go home to at this point.
Yeah, Yeah, I also think Cassian. What's kind of heartbreaking about Cassian saying no to the Gorman Revolutionist that we saw him inspire a rebel in the first scene of the first episode. You know, we saw him talk to someone as a rebel leader, as someone who can inspire, that can get somebody to step in the circle and take that chance on a thing that they feel is right, even if they may die in the process. We don't know what happened to that woman in the first episode.
Did she make it out, was their retribution?
We have no.
Idea Cassian's in a similar situation. Here. But I think we have to remember there has been a year gap. He has been on many missions through the course of that year. But I think this is a tough spot to be in because, as you said, Jason, he has Bix on one hand. On the other hand, there doesn't seem to be any sort of endgame in sight. There doesn't even seem to be any sort of like win in sight at the moment, like this is a pretty.
For the for the Gormans, or for overall.
For this.
For all these operations he's been running for Luthan, Like where is it all going? Like this is sort of the dip of the rebellion, right, They're in this low before potentially something like Gorman blows up and the rebellion takes off. And so I think for Cassie and this is like, emotionally and as a rebel, a very low place to be in. And so to be sent to Gorman and see these like bright eyed idealists be like we're gonna stand up to the Empire, We're gonna go public,
and we're gonna take him down. Like I think he's just really disheartened and jaded at this point. I think something has turned him into the rebel at the start has been dimmed, and we're seeing that in the set of episodes.
Yeah, I think you bring up a great point there, Boo, because I think it's that cynical nature. It's the transition that we're seeing from and Or in season one to and Or in Rogue one. And at the moment he is ironically the cynicism and emotional disconnect of Lutheran is rubbing off on him. But he has not gotten to that point yet where he's like, oh, well, if the whole of Gorman burns because it goes wrong, that will
just be a great call to the Empire. He's not there yet, you know, He's he is still in a place where he has someone that he loves at home. But I think something really interesting about where we find and Or this episode is in that crosshairs of the rebellion being something that he cares about and is almost like his that he just has to do. And then obviously having Bis at home, which is the thing that drives him. And there's that great moment where you know,
and Or so he doesn't want to do this. He's turning his nose up at the Gorms because they're not ready and they need to do it properly. But then there's that great moment where Big says, you know, you didn't kill that boy because we're war. You killed him because he saw my face.
So's own personal kind of relationship to Bix and to what is driving him can still cause him to behave in ways that are abhorrent or ways that are violent and unnecessary, but he's not willing to just risk himself for the larger cause, and he wants.
To do anything he can to prepare well. And that reminds you. I think that's really interesting totally.
And it reminds me of the moment on the ship between Luthin and and Or where Andrew is like, you know, I'm thinking like a soldier, like think like a leader.
Want to go home.
They're like, are you now how long have you been?
I follow the orders? We that's mission accomplished. A leader is you know, eighteen steps ahead, and you know, how do we get out? And it's just and to a boost earlier point like we've seen him be a leader, And I think it's really interesting for the show to take a step back and be like, yeah, sometimes you backslide, like sometimes Auliu's faith. Sometimes it's it's scary moving forward.
And I think ending the first batch of episodes with and Or like really referring to Bix as his home and then seeing Bix's ability to hide whatever's going on with her from Andor is incredible, like Cassy and has no clue really how far down bixes and I like for him, it does seem like he's ready to sort of get out until we get to that final moment where Luthern Luthan's like, hey, like this is really your issue, Like Bix is your I was the problem because that's
that's not quite what it is. But like you, guys, if you're going to be a team, if you are going to be acting in the world, you need to figure out what your partner's doing and get under control. Guess it's like it's up to you, and he's like, it's absolutely not Abu.
No, this is like you please. Well I would also say as well, I think that there is just a messiness here with and Or that is easier for him to stay in. His personal messiness and his personal reasons for the rebellion are much easier for him to be driven by than taking the risk of losing an entire city, you know. I also think there's that element to it. It's not just about not wanting to do something wrong. But I don't know if he's ready to be the one to say, hey, go for it, guys.
I think part of this is I think what you're talking about, Rosie is in part it arises from Cassian's role in the rebellion. He's not Luthan in the belly of the Beast, who never or I should say, who rarely goes to the front.
He's in both worlds.
So he's meeting these people, he's looking at them in the eye, he's shaking hands with them, he's connecting emotionally with the Bellhak.
He's like doing all these things.
So it's real to him, these people who are gonna die that, you know, like that's he's gonna watch them. He knows what the cost is going to be because he's been on both sides of it.
He's seen the imperial machine.
He's seen the kind of hard ware they have, the kind of force they can bring to bear on these regular people who are fucking linen weavers, who are like, I want to do something, yea. Luthan has the benefit of distance. He can sit back and say politically, looking at the board, this helps us, so we need to do it. And I think part of the tension between the two is that is that Caasian has to interact
with these he knows we're gonna die. And that's why, you know, what's the Luthan giving Bis and cassion the the revenge mission on the Imperial Doctor.
Is like it's almost like a coach.
Of a sports team, like criticize and criticize and criticize and criticizing a player and then being like, now I'm going to give you the ball, go ahead. And it's it's Luthan's way of saying, I see what's happening with you, guys. I see how much you're hurting and how much you've been traumatized by all of this and how hard everything is. Here's one for you. This doesn't advance really our political
goals that much. I guess it does because you're stopping this torture technology from going wider into the into the Imperial regime.
But this is really.
One for them personally. Oh yeah, And that's so I found that very interesting that he's like, here's one, here's a risk I'm willing to take so that you guys can.
Feel better about what you're doing. Mm hmm, go kill that guy.
Yeah, And I think there's an interesting conversation to be had with the way Luthen then also operates with Vell and Sinta and keeping them apart for a year, And it makes me wonder how intentional that is and seeing that like when they are together they're less effective. Is he doing some sort of pressure use their love as
a pressure cooker to make them more effective. I think Luthan is playing these two couples in different and similar ways in order to achieve Is it like, like you're saying, Jason like a coach, he is coaching these like subordinates, uh, towards his his own larger goals, but one.
Only one would only need to look at Will.
If kind of romance in the field is affecting affecting your ability?
Vision was so upset with Will, But I'm actually I'm glad we I'm glad we talked about Will because I actually think some of the most affecting stuff this episode is the stuff with Will and Saw.
So after we come up break Oh, yes, take.
Joel, Let's take a break and then we'll come back and.
Talk about that.
Yeah, and we're back Joel and Aboo, how did the kind of saw origin story and the Will and Saw moments, Like, what did that kind of say to you about where the rebellion is at and the different sides of the rebellion that we kind of explore this episode.
I think I'm just.
I'm so over I was overwhelmed out the right word. I am so impressed. Seems Mundane invested me just in in the world that they've created and the ways they're exploring spycraft, right like Cereal's Cereal's a illusion to a good spy is so he is a good spy, but again blinded by love, completely unable to see that, like
your image of what's happening is so limited. And then to sort of to go to Cinta, who we saw was she was a radical, like she didn't have time to look at her partner because she was like, I can't I literally can't take my eyes off the mission. I have to be observing this person. I know you're here and I can hear your hurting and I can't address that because I'm in the mission. Just totally radical and to see her sort of come back and the
way like this is the first time. I think Vell was definitely the leader, but Cinta was always just so like agro and determined. Is so interesting to see her comeback wounded and watch a fell sort of fill up space and be like, no, that's my woman. We're not dealing. She's like, don't even worry. I'm gonna talk to the boss for you, like we're gonna get this figured out. And to see that ending, I just it kind of makes you wonder whether all of this is worth it.
And again, we have the ability of knowing where everything's going, and so that gives us a lot of advantage as viewers. But I think if you had no idea shout out to people in twenty years, you get to watch this in whatever order they want to. We don't know where this leads. You wonder like, Okay, we lost one of our best at a time when she was making a turn into becoming something much more than she was before.
She's not just a soldier, and now she's thinks she is doing the leadership, thinking of like long term, what are we gonna do? How do we ground ourselves? How do I be a full person? And still attack this mission, and we see it too with and or fully adopting like characters but also being concerned, like everybody is hurt.
We get so many Achilles heels this episode. Everybody's hurting so deeply, and to this point there doesn't seem to be a completed plan in sight that you're like, man, I could I want to bail at this point when we listen. I think that is I would.
Say that there is a plan at this point, but you don't.
You're not gonna tell Santa.
You're not gonna tell sent about it. You're not gonna tell about it.
The existence of one without being able to run or see it, it might well not exist.
Yeah, yeah, yeah to the people on the ground. Well, I think that's why the Will and Sore stuff is really great because Saul connects with Will on a much more straightforward level where he's basically just like I was raised to die and you have seen now that I will kill somebody if they are a traitor. But but if you join me, you can actually take an action that will instantly make you feel like you are part
of something important and big. And that is a direct action, that's a violence that is being part of a crew who are on the kind of front lines in a way that Lutheran or even Synta and Vell and especially vel as like a you know, a fancy mon moth
my cousin lady, they can't really understand. But Soul speaks to Will on this really real level, gives us this origin story in a way that we haven't really heard before about his ridium, uh you know, addiction that came from him basically meant to die from it, but then
he found the strength in it. And I think that that speaks to how a lot of young people can be radicalized in these moments where like they don't feel like they know what the plan is, They don't know what their future is, they don't know what it holds. They don't know what they get to have, like Will getting to have does he get to live on big wheat and have a beautiful girlfriend or is that a
danger to the rebellion. He doesn't really know where he stands or what part of his of the rebellion is his. And I think that's the way that Sauw connects with him there, Like I think that that is a really interesting kind of more direct in.
It is well Saw's sales pitch is very simple compared to someone like Luthen. Like Luthern or Bell might approach you and be like, here's the five D chess game we're playing.
Are you in?
And Saw hands you a hammer and says hammer, nail, hit it exactly, you know, And those are two very different sales pitches for effectively the same rebellion.
Yeah, and if you think about the way, you know, we were sort of talking, I was contemplating, like, let's compare like Saw and Will's like emergence into the rebellion, and jaes to me the salient point of like, yeah, everybody's kind of in the same boat, Like they lost to a lot of people. They're hurting, they're trying to fight back. I think what I found really interesting in this moment is like Saw compares his or or the release that doing the drugs he's taking to being able
to be with his sister. If you're not like a clone. Wars fans start that's where he first appeared. He had a sister named Stela, and so it comes to help him like navigate the warfront. He thinks he's going to sacrifice himself. His sister actually ends up dying, and it's the only time we've heard in all of the Saw reappearances about Stela, and it's not even to hear her name, but just say she's my sister and she loves me. And he can only say this high as hell to
a kid who's practically a stranger. I think Saw as the guy on the front who's like already half mad and falling apart, but still so strong in his conviction that he makes significant changes for the rebellion is again, you just do get to see all sides of it in this show, and it just makes everything that comes after so much more right.
What is hard to gain sight of is the fact that it's three bby four bb wife five bby. It is not clear to the vast majority of people in the galaxy that won the empire is bad. And two, if the empire is bad, there is not a political solution to the empire being bad. Maybe the maybe the empire, Maybe the emperor decides, you know what, let's bring some aspects of the republic back, or maybe there's a maybe
there's a way to do this peacefully. Right, And I think that part of the madness of Saw is he might literally be the first person, the first group of people around him to say this is there's no easy way out of this. There's no political solution. There's only you can only react violently to this injustice, and that's
what I'm going to do. And I think part of what's driven him this crazy is the fact that like he was out there alone on this, on the edge of this for the longest time, and even now at three bby three years for the Battle of Yavn and the rebellion just kind of beginning to call us. You know, most people, even in the rebellion, don't probably are thinking, maybe there's a way to force the emperor to the table, right and maybe there's if you know, like do.
You get in their saws not coming with us, Like they've made that decision already, and he knows that, he always knows he's always going to be on the outs.
He's always going to be on the outside. But it's kind of ironic because then if we skip forward to a new hope, you know, the way that Luke and Leah and hand deal with the rebellion is through violence, and what is essentially, I mean, deal with the empire is through violence, And what is essentially, you know, if the Proud the time was talking about it would be terrorism. And they actually take on a lot of Saws kind of ways that he works, but he will never get the credit.
We can even want to revenge of the city when Padme is I forget who she's talking to you, but she's like, hey, I don't think the Senate that we work for exists anymore. This thing we believe in no longer exists, and so you kind of again, you're sort of left the feeling of like Saw's reaction is a rational one, which is just so, but it is.
Rational, and I think that's what's so. What I one of the things I love about this show is seeing how all these disparate pieces of the rebellion are working together. You have Saw, who is taking action, was taking action before anybody else and is a necessary agitator and first like frontline actor to do the most dangerous, crazy suicide quasi suicidal shit that the rebellion needs at this point.
Then you have Cassian, who like floats between these kind of front line and under the water kind of world. You have Luthan who lives in the belly of the beast and is like organizing all of this but can't tell anybody. And then I think, crucially you have Man Mathma, who I think is probably one of these people who at this point still thinks there's got to be a
political solution to this. There's got to be a speech that I can make that why, there's got to be a vote that There's got to be a way that I can corral.
Vote people here to make yeah, that.
We can claw back some of this power and is and her awakening to like oh fuck, there isn't is fascinating. And then there's Luthan's relationship to Man. You know, Luthan I think is the only one at this point who understands we're going to war. But I need Mon because I can't put Sagerera on television and have him make a fucking speech to the galaxy right.
To the ground. I am sending every citizen of the galaxy of that of Tito.
You know, a word in you know, you're saying some really real ship. He's like, you know, and not for the saying, and everyone's watching in there like but I'm saying I can't do this song like please.
So what do you think about about these various about these various tactics that each of these cells are are carrying out, the various directions they're taking, and how do you react to the way those things work together or don't Yeah a.
Boo, give us your insight, because you pulled some really cool stuff out of these episodes about this.
Well, I mean, I I do want to say, I think the politics conversation is really underscored in these episodes. With that montage of man trying to canvas votes to go against the po RD and just getting stonewalled constantly. One of the small all lines that really struck with me. As we've established this is just a sci fi fantasy show and has no bearing on real life from larger come on, but if I were to hypothetically connect it to larger events. She's speaking to that one senator walking
down the hallway and talking about statistics. You know, the prime numbers are going up? Are we creating criminals? Are stopping them? And the senator's response is, well, number, schmumbers. They can all be manipulated. I believe what I feel, and that just that hit me hard because it's that's just like that's the Internet. You know, people just believe
what they feel. On the Internet and numbers and truth and the elusiveness of truth as we all know, feels like so hard to grasp and like anyone who's been at a Thanksgiving dinner and tried to argue with an uncle about the facts of a thing and just gotten like emotional responses back. Well, I don't feel like that's true. I don't feel this, I don't all that. So I think the politics conversation is it's quite impactful in these
episodes as well. And I thought the mond montage it was only there for like two minutes, but it really resonated with me. And again, hypothetically speaking, could have connected to reality if the show was about reality at all, Joel.
I was gonna say the both and like Cassie and breaking down to the Gorman why their plan sucks, and then and then and then poor Santa and Velle coming in and being like, yeah, so that really does suck. They're like they were like teachers, where they're like, okay, so this part great, you pick the right location. I'm giving you six minutes, max, that's all. If you don't get everything, don't fucking worry about it. That's not what we're doing. This is like an opening statement like just
calm down. I think really there's such I think, especially in like American filmmaking, there's such a very loud like when you rebel per earlier point, it's violence, it's it's immediate action. It's like you have to let people know they're wrong. And that's completely not what a rebellion is built on at all. Your politics, your morals, don't matter as much as your tactics and your ability to maneuver
against your opponent. And I think highlighting that and showing how difficult those things, Like when we get to the Gorman massacre, which again is part of Legends, and we'll get to in a minute, I just think, like it may you understand what they're up against, and they set that up so well, and again it pays off in Rogue One, like the way this show just continues to pay off and build into this world we already know.
It's so brilliant. I really feel for the folks suffering because I think I put in the group chat the you started too late. It's just so soul crushing. It's the most demorl thing because you can't fix, you can't go back in time. There's nothing you can do, and essentially to say your only way through is to suffer deeply because you started too late. It's just it's so impossible, it's so hard. I'm very concerned about our next few episodes.
Let's let's flip to the other side and contrast some styles in UH in UH leadership between, you know, between Cyril and and Deirdre. I think, for me, I think they have very two, very unique styles in service of imperial fascism. I think Cyril is clearly an idealist. He really believes the empire is fucking great. And when people pop up on Gorman saying the Empire sucks, they're from
somewhere else. They're coming in and they're trying to stir things up here, stir up emotions because everybody can see that the empire's great. And then you have Deirdre, who is just like I want to be hunting bad guys, like I don't even really want to be doing this. It's not even about career for her, because she's been told multiple times by party guys, this is great for your fucking career, and she's like, I don't.
I don't.
That's not what I do. That's not what I do. I do.
I'm a hunter, and it's interesting to me to watch these two people delude themselves to various degrees about what the empire is really about. How did you respond to those two and they're absolutely perverse relationship?
Sorry with you.
Shouts to the one hour that Cyril got with his girlfriends. By the way, in.
The dark, there's a lot of.
Fanfit going on in the discord about what was going on in that. I'm glad we did not see it.
Those two.
I don't want to know about that.
Yeah, I don't want to know what that good for him. Yeah, I mean, first of all, I do want to say, as obviously evil as these two are, shouts to Cyril for doing a great job as a spy. I had so much fun watching him just be a bit of a drama queen. You know, are you searching my office?
Why?
Why?
Why would there be a listening thing like device in my office? Just throwing up pretty good, pretty good? Yeah, I don't know that I could keep that up, and if I sp agents came into my office all of a sudden. Shots to him for doing that. But yes, I think Jason, you bring up such an interesting point because these two characters are really fun to watch because
they are so diluted in their own visions. Cyril obviously a sent for his hot fascist girlfriend, but like he to yours, as you said, to some extent, he doesn't see a problem with the Empire, and in fact, like this, this stability, uh, these whatever standards he is working on at the Bureau are the standards to which the Empire should be run, and this is the status quota him
is correct. So if if he were to be presented with an alternative at like just as you said, Jason, I think he would he would brush it off as like, oh, these are anomalies, this is not the norm. A normal person likes the Empire like I do, is a fan of the Empire. Ddre to me, I'm.
A little more.
I'm more. I'm curious about Dedra. I don't know that I've gotten enough backstory to truly understand what her loyalty to the Empire is. I understand her motivations to hunt down the bad guys and hunt down Cassian in particular, but I'm left with a bit of a question mark on her larger loyalties too.
I have theories, Yeah, have theories. Okay, so we know Didre grew up in an imperial kinder center, so she's raised. I think what we're looking at between Cyril and Dieitre are two different types of indoctrination, right. I think Dedra understands that this is the structure in which the only structure that she understands. Right, she doesn't understand like a family structure. We don't see her. She'll have no girlfriends or nothing, and she's completely shocked by her like reaction
to Cyril. This is so foreign to her. I don't think Dad's ever had a love interest before. She's been about the job and the mission. I think Cyril terrifies her. The feelings like the lights off, which is funny because she's like in such a commanding position and he's like only an hour and it's very like, oh, he's a scent. But I really think what you're seeing is Dandre's fear of like having to keep the secret from Cyril. I think Dadre really wants to tap into her humanity and
has no idea how to do it. She's on autopilot and she doesn't listen to her bosses, be because I think the only she like success is the only like tangible thing she has. She understands like nobody in this corporate imperial system cares for her or about her as much as Cyril cares. Is that gonna stick around? Like this guy could easily get killed tomorrow. He's a wild card.
He's not as smart as her. She's like, she can't yet fully gonna be there, and all she has is herself and this ability to show people this is what I'm good at. I think she's so locked into that. And he's terrifying to watch somebody who like, imagine she would just switch to the side of the rebels where she could be a human, Like she mean, the greatest asset ever. She's so she really cares at her job, and she has such an understanding of how the empire works.
And then Cyril. Cyril has been begging for a chance to showcase what he can do. And he has a mother who may not show him any kind of respector love, but she loves the empire. She is like, listen, we eat good, live good, course, not is everything? You should have stayed here? Why would you ever wants every yea? And so he's like, Okay, how do I win my mother's love and respect? You're the only thing I want and like impress my super awesome girlfriend, which how is
that even happening? A really great spy all like he's just the greatest day of his life. Is when they're like, hey, you can move on to the next step of your missions. And the fact that they see each other but not in such a way that they're able to like go of these things that are holding both of them back so much? Is do they are my favorite people to watch? Like I love these characters. You're like, you are dumb, but wow, like.
I do, I do think as well. There's like interesting reflections between like these doesn't really need to keep Cyril out of the whole plan, you know, like she could just rather than being like, hey, you're just going there to like keep an eye on them or whatever and report back, there is a world where she could tell it. But I think this kind of speaks to the way that the rebellion as well, is in all these different small,
compartmentalized spaces, so people can't ruin other people's plans. But Deirdre isn't really getting that as a rule from part of Gas, She's doing that to herself. She's like, I've got to keep this to myself because I need it to work, you know. And I think again the nature of how whatever side you're on this keeping secrets, this not being honest with the people that you choose to have in your life, there are like weird ramifications of that. And I think, in the case of Deirdre and Cyril,
what's really funny to watch right now? I was like, actually, Cyril is very, very fucking good at this, which none of us saw coming. So how about you actually do let him in and maybe you two work together and this might work well.
This oh sorry, go ahead up, Well we might be on the same track, Rosie. I wonder though, would that burst cereals bubble of the Empire, because this isn't just we're gonna take out the bad guys or take out the rebel or take out the anomalies. This plan is we're gonna take out innocence.
Yeah, yeah, we're gonna We're gonna.
You know, I don't think Deader can tell serial that and still have serial people.
We're gonna mine this planet so that most of its cities are destroyed, like this is that's what we're doing. I will say, you know, uh, I think that there is an interesting like overall existential tension between the Empire and the rebellion that comes through in these relationships, and that on the side of the Empire there it is unquestionably more ordered, this centralized kind of structure, right, Like
I think you could. I think there's a way to look at the Clone Wars and the Late Republic years and say objectively, listen, that was not working, Like we had devastating wars across the galaxy, Like it was crazy, it was not the the Emperor's key role in agitating a lot of that aside, Like it kind of wasn't working, right, And I think a lot of people would.
Respond to that. At the same time.
In the Empire now, competency is not rewarded, is not It's dangerous, Like, yes, Cyril is good at this, but like him becoming too good at this is a threat to what Deirdre is trying to do. Deirdre being too good at this.
Is a threat to what Partigas is trying to do.
Part of Gas.
Being too good at this is a threat.
To what Critic is trying to do.
Klinic meanwhile, is in this fucking power struggle with mav Tarkin. Both of them are trying to be best boy alongside Darth Vader to fucking the emperor. While you look at the rebellion and it's a mess. There's a lot of arguments, but I think the key thing there is one democracy. You have to just accept it. It's going to be mess here because there's gonna be disagreements, but hopefully, and what is kind of happening is competency. The cream is rising to the top of the rebellion, whereas on the
imperial side, don't be too good. You know, there's a reason the stormtroopers miss all the time. There are people who kind of suck that will just follow orders and won't think too much about what they're trying to do. Don't have too much ambition because that's a threat to this entire thing that we're trying to.
Yeah, I think you speak to something really true there as well, because in the rebellion they have a certain amount of leeway for people that they know on their own missions. Like we see this tension growing with and Ors. He's always off on his own mission. He's not telling bigs Lutheran's trying to pit them against each other. But it's and Or, So you kind of let him do his thing. The imperial side does not have that. You
stay in your lane. You do what you do, and you better not do it in a way that makes other people look bad at the end of it all. And this is not to make a moral suggestion that it is to do with you know, doing the right thing. But I think that the thing that holds a rebellion together is there is a general understanding this is bad and we want it to get better. Whereas everyone on the imperial side has their own version of what they're
looking for. Deirdre is always bringing up this idea of chaos. We bring order, this is chaos. The empire always leads on that. Like you said, with Cyril, I think that man legitimately thinks that empire is doing a great job,
you know. But it's funny because then he is in these situations where and we all know, Like when we were recaving this, like I was honestly like getting you know, I was seeing Cyril's kind of empathy to the Gorms, and I was like, wait a minute, maybe he really does believe this, and he does think he can help them kind of find a path that is not their just complete eradication. So it is interesting, but I think it's to do with the rebels have a shared wish,
which is how can we make this better? The empire is bad. Within the imperial side, it's just all people who have their own agendas trying to rise up the ranks to essentially gain power, which leads to you know, the sith and the rule of the two and who's at the top. So I think it's really well done.
But getting to see it on this granular, day to day, almost like slice of life level, is why I think and Or is an impeccably made show and it's bringing something that is totally different than we've seen before.
Well that's a great segue. Let's take a quick break and then welcome someone who does not think it's a great show to a podcast.
To talk about why that mean. And we're back as always.
It's a breath of fresh air to welcome notorious Rogue one hater super producer Aaron to critique Rogue one and Or season two and give us his thoughts on the series that we are all in agreement with. But it's always great to having a poison point of view, and so let's welcome erin to the show.
Aaron your thoughts.
I do feel like I'm a breath, a breath of fresh air for all of you.
Is pumping out of those machines.
My sister, I will say, I think this is a very good show. I do not think the show is untouchable in the way that I feel like I'm getting pushed back, specifically from a boo who's.
Really I mean, I mean was like.
And I was like, I'm gonna block you never text me again.
All Right?
My first question, what why have we made Bix a punching bag like bis last last batch is like the Imperial Officer attempts to actually assault her. Uh and that is not even addressed in this set. Like she's still dealing with the PTSD from the torture in season one. She's now a drug like we have this hints that she's addicted to some drug. We're concerned about it. It's just like everything is happening to her.
I just want to say, Okay, the pylon began.
I'm gonna say, first of all, I was gonna direct this to Joel because she had had the she had had the punching bag worry, but I think she changed on that.
But actually, as you laid it out. I'm gonna I'm gonna give you the sad, real talk. Nobody's talking about it, nobody's dealing with it, because that's what it like when you get sexually assaulted. No one deals with it, no one talks about it. You deal with it by yourself, and then you go to coping mechanisms like being on drugs and just being very interior. And even though it is depressing, I do think it's very realistic. And now let me go to Joel, who was the original punching bag.
Accusa has changed.
I was concerned. I was concerned because we've seen Bix down for a long time. Like if you were to marathon this show, I think it's like the third set of episodes in the back half of season one, all the way to now where she has just been. It's been a struggled city for her, has been tortured and she's dealing with a lot. But here's what I think. One Tony g Man himself was like, Hey, women go through this. It's crazy if we talk about war and we don't
explore sexual assault. It happens. It's about power, that is an abuse of power. It happens Okay. What I loved about this is like, oh this is this is just depression. I've been there. I know I've been here. But Cooley and TV messy house food everywhere, and then too, they showcase Bix's strength in the best possible ways. She can still read Luthan, a man almost no one can read.
It's like her and Claiya, who can read Luthen clearly even in her And she's hiding this right, like, so this is a person who wants to be better or to appear better, but just really struggling. Like she she cleans the whole house before Hubby gets back. She's like, oh, you know, I knew you're gonna come back. I think that her arc of recovery is vital, and her getting her look back at the end made everything else worth it.
But she was like, it's only gonna seem like for Hevers that this bitch is back and better than ever. She just had to kill this guy. I get it. I love that for her. I don't think she's a punching back. I think we saw a backslide from here. We would definitely need to pause and question things. I think she's got to go straightforward into please not death, but maybe death going forward. But for now, I'm happy with where she's at because she's she's back, baby.
She's good.
If four horrible things happened to her, that's too much. But these three and.
Next question, next question, the next question, I would just say, like, what, Aaron, Uh, why do you feel that surviving is weak?
I think it's not surviving is weak for her. I think it's that the show has piled everything on her and nothing on so many other characters.
Okay, disagree, but let's move on.
Next Curt discussion and a lot of bally who has been made about this being like the most expensive Star Wars project? Does this show need this high of a budget? Do I really need the cafe scene to be in the food court of Grand Central Station twice? I mean, the hotel is nice, Do we need the separate lobby
and the room shots? Like, I'm worried. I'm worried if this budget is so high and it doesn't have the numbers they need, Disney will be disappointed and this will not look well for future Star Wars.
The corporate the corporate comptroller has logged on, folks, Disney accountant has.
Logged on for.
Cricket on the shoulder.
And incredible interview. First studiohead, you got the job?
Aboo you we gonna say.
I was just gonna say, who the fuck cares? You can't put the money, bitch, this's got the money. Spend it, baby, spend the money. Who cares? If we're gonna get stories like this that look this good and are acted this well and written so beautifully, sure, I don't. I don't care. This is a multi gazillion dollar corporation. And if they can put out beautiful art like this and it costs a ton of money, great, I want.
To add an epe just say, Aaron, I hear you. I can't thinking about the art. Okay, they don't find art a second time if it flops. But here's what I think. I think Disney has a firm understanding of how critically successful this was gonna be. Tony Giroy is a like media darling, like the media loves him. Plus he's stupid talented, and so when you invest in a property like this, I think what they're doing is two things. One,
they're like, we can do adult stuff. And if you're an adult who loves Star Wars and has been ready to grow up with Star Wars. Trust us. We've got some good stuff for you, which is necessary and great. The second thing I think they do is I think they have set themselves up well for award season. Everybody loves an award and makes the board feel happy. We're getting recognition that's dope. And finally, Disney loves the park. And if we can find new planets that people love to.
Money baby looks like their response to Universal Epic Universe, kind of helios celestial, like Deco nineteen twenties.
It's it that's being mined. I don't know, but Joel, I think you make a good point, Aaron, next question.
All right, yeah, I agree one hundred percent. I think the best setting for a theme park is a slow political espionage thriller.
That's all right.
The next question, moving on, how are all of you feeling about the time jump nature of these batches of episodes?
I personally am not loving it.
I it feels like the characters just get dropped into some new situation. So basically, we get seventy two hours of story and then we wait another eight thousand, six hundred and eighty eight hours and the story comes back to me.
It seems a number storytelling.
But let me, uh, let me, I think you must hate Star Wars episode four, the nineteen seventy seven smash Hit, which drops us cold into the aftermath of a battle that we did not see, that comes on the tale of a Clone war that we did not see, that we only get the Clone war blah blah blah blah blah and.
The squirrel Like, this is it?
Listen, everybody's mileers may vary, some people may not like it. I think this is Star Wars in miniature. This is what it is media res. It opens up in the middle of the action or after the action, sometimes as characters pick up the pieces. So for me, this is kind of an essential Star Wars structure, this kind of jumping and dropping into events where you're like, wait, what's happening. But of course, like, some people may not like it, and that's absolutely fine, But that's my reaction.
Is this is a miniature.
This is Star Wars adminiature.
I for sure heard people share this sentiment and a lot of people were saying that they felt confused. They were like, well, wait, wait and it killed somebody who and and why?
I think, what's Will doing on the planet. What saw in the first place, the Rhino.
I just think the show that requires photos show and watched the show, I really pay attention to the dialogue. A lot is happening, but I think it it for this structure what it really does, because they were like, originally they were gonna do five seasons, and they were like Tony said, exactly, just way too long. I'm done, I'm tired. Let's just let's do it too uh So he set this up to push us straight into rogue one.
To me, I love seeing the way how much people unravel or advance in the course of a year, how much has changed it almost and how much has stayed the same. You're getting like a really in depth looking like politics are slow as hell, Oh my god, like man, Mathma is crawling compared to one like and she's just like, so could you vote? Know it's in your best No, cool, cool, cool?
You you down like, help me out here. And I think being able to see that contrasting juxtaposition while also building again Luthen being shaken from where we were in those last few episodes to hear you're like, oh it's getting bad, and that gives you a sense of time that is so specific. I just I think it's beautiful. I love a good structure. I think it's happening. I like it.
Yeah, And if anything, it sounds like you want more of this shows.
Enough six hundred plus more hours of the show.
I will also quickly say I think right now, in this moment, viewers are more primed for this than ever because this is essentially the same format as the recall trend. Like when you jump into screen five, you're meeting new characters who are living with the legacy of something that happened fifteen years ago. You don't really know how it impacts them. You don't really understand their lives, and as
you go through you learn it. And I do think that the storytelling within this and the conceptual structure of hey, we trust the audience, it's a year later, how things changed,
might be jarring by it. Also think it's interesting and I think it harks back to more of Tony Gilroy's like non big budget studio work and more in general, like in the cinema where you just dropped into twenty four hours of somebody's life, or you know, something like Run, Lola, Run, where it's like you're constantly reliving the same thing over
and over again. I think the audience is ready for more experimental storytelling, and I do think that and Or has been honest about that being what season two is and has delivered in my opinion, though, I do think it's fair to say, like Joelle, you it was crunching five seasons into two. So if it doesn't work for you, doesn't work next question.
Just like you on this one, just like Run, Lola Run. I feel like I'm living. I feel like I'm reliving this four v one over and over again. So I think this show has a lot of storylines going on at once. Some of them I love. I love the forged art with the listening device. I love Claya so much like my favorite character. I think this season so
far she's literally getting her hands blood. But one of the things that really threw me was this arms interception where the guy from the town hall, who in episode four I felt like was really radical and wanted them to be doing more, suddenly shows up and they're like, get out of here, get out of here, and he doesn't. He won't leave, and that causes the shooting, which causes the killing, which causes the chaos and then that same guy is like, I'll carry her, I'll bring her to your transport.
What happened there? I like, literally am confused.
I feel like it was pretty clear, but maybe I'm wrong. I mean, the whole point of the Gorman Front was this. You have civilians who have political disagreements within in domestic Gorman politics, right that existed, probably a conservative party and a more progressive party within what they're trying to do. On top of that, you have the Empire coming in, pressing on those existing fissures, and this group of this community trying to come together to figure out how to
address this. Yes, this guy who spoke was, you know, see like let's do something. At the same time, it's very clear that he was cut out of this mission. He was not involved in this. He was not read into this mission, and so when he wanders into it, he's like, wait, you guys are fucking doing some attack
the empire shit without me. So he wants to be involved, but of course he shouldn't be because he doesn't know what we're doing, and him, you know, carrying the wounded at the end is just simply a reaction of the fact that we're They're all in this together, despite the fact that he wasn't involved in this. I think it was simply the fact that a mission was moving forward without him, despite the fact that he is one of these voices that has been agitating for action against the Empire.
So I think it was simply that you know, this is the Gorman Front. Is just that it's a front composed of multiple groups stitched together. It's not one homogeneous mass that all believes the same thing and wants to do this same thing. So I think this was just this was those kind of schisms coming to the forefront at the worst possible time.
That's how I read it.
Thank you, Ann Wow, Thanks Saran, appreciate you.
You don't need to play the Imperial March before he comes.
He comes off of his.
Shuttle at the guards.
Smoke coming down the walk.
Mondu Dun Dun.
If anyone wants to draw some Aaron Fana, please please hell.
This has been a fantastic conversation for those of you interested. I put together a letterbox list of films that I feel like are a great primer and influence.
Perhaps two chapter Yes, Sly absolutely check out The Army of Shadows and The Sorrow and the Pity specifically if you want to see, like, uh, some historical based movies that I feel like are the start of the Pity is a documentary that I feel like directly tie into the stuff we see on Gorman.
You can find that on any tw three r K on letterbox or just search my name. Coming up next on Extra Vision this Monday, we have thoughts on the new Marvel blockbuster, The Thunderbolts Asterisk. Then Tuesday, our reaction to the Last of Us episode four, and of course, despite Aaron's please, we are.
Returning to the world.
What's that right?
That's it for this episode.
Listening by.
X ray Vision is hosted by Jason Sepsi and Rosie Night and is a production of iHeart Podcast.
Our executive producers are Joe Alminique and Aaron Kletman.
Our supervising producer is Abusafar.
Our producers are Common Laurent Dean Jonathan and Bay Wack.
A theme song is by Brian Vasquez, with alternate theme songs by Aaron Kaufman.
Special thanks to Soul Rubin, Chris Lord, Kenny Goodman, and Heidi our discord moderator