Warning, Today's episode contains spoilers for and Or season two, the finale, the entire series, plus lots of other Star Wars. I'm sure we're going to be discussed.
So just be warned.
Oh my name is Jas Sconcepcio an I'm Mersey and I and welcome back to Extra Vision of the podcast where we do you do your favorite shows, movies, comics of pop culture company from iHeart Podcast, where we'll bring you three episodes a week every Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, plus news.
In this episode, oh baby, we've been waiting for it. We're calling the Alliance back to Avin to discuss the final three episodes. And well, I think at this point we can just officially call the greatest Star Wars property of old time.
It's and Or and guess we'll sadly a Boo is off planet today, so we'll not be joining us, but we have called in the most important guest that we could have to make sure we're talking about and Or in a sensible and serious Star Wars forward. Wait, it's h from Escape Hatch.
Welcome, what's happening And.
Of course we will also have Joel Monique, Mommer's daughter's Weddings after party. Absolutely happy to have you guys here, very excited to talk about this absolutely astonishing show.
Astonishing, Okay, let's get it.
Yeah, this is an upgrade from coming to talk about doing prophecy. That's what works. It is perfect.
Yeah, it's perfect.
So h your your overall thoughts on Indoor season too. Yeah, and even looking at the entire show, I just want to say, the thing that struck me when we got to the finale and the last shot of this and we see where Bis has landed up and who she is holding. I was crying, screaming, laughing, just I was so the amount of relief and love that I felt in that moment. And to me, this is the genius. Tony flipped the script on Rogue one.
Everyone always says, man, it's depressing, everyone dies, It's this downer of a story, and he turned the entire thing around. It's about love, it's about life, it's about hope, and it's about rebirth.
Yeah.
Unbelievable to transform that, and so that was the biggest takeaway from me.
Yeah.
So I'm so excited to talk to you guys a little bit more about the baby because there's been a lot of Baby discourse in the I'm very excited.
Let's talk about who are MVP of this season is before we really get into the.
Meat of the baby.
A lot of great candidates on the on the imperial side and on the rebels side, and the kind of shades in between. Joel your MVP for and or season two? And I guess really for.
And series in always it's Luthan real. It is nobody like to come in and die series to be such a legendary, Like we thought Rogue one was the kickoff, but Luthen is the kickoff. And that is like a brain altering way to watch this movie to honor, like it's done for everybody, but it's also kind of just done for Luthen, like he is stellar and for that Episode ten is maybe one of my favorite things ever written.
It's up there with like was it episode six of Watchmen where they go back into her granites was the top? It's up there with that, Like I just think the devotion what we get with him and Claia, the I mean, my god, this moment where he's just staying before he makes the transition into rebel and he's just make it stop, make it stop. Like you understand from whence this passion
comes and then the unraveling of him. We talked about how like coming into season two, there's no part of you that would consider like, oh, Luthen's not fully prepared and aware. He's always aware, but like he faltered at times, like it was almost Jesus allegory of like, oh, yeah, I'm doubting in the the eleventh hour that we can
do this. It's so scary. And for him to kill someone that we ultimately like who we know sacrifice and lived by the same types of rules with Luthen, like Iver stepped out of bounds, like held it down in very stressful situations, and then our guy just gets murked on a bench and I still like after that, yeah, still respect his choice, Like that's crazy.
I think that is why Luthin is such a brilliant character, and what Tony Gilroy does so well is Luthin is almost he is almost like the character who is the show, because the truth is he does terrible things, he does complex things, he does the things he has to do. But Tony Gilroy is not interested in passing some judgment on him. He is just interested in presenting part of
what the rebellion needs. And I think as well, the reason that Luthern's fate is like so incredibly moving is he knows, you know, his speech that made everyone fall in love with him for the first time, he says, I'm never going to get to see what we're doing this for, Like he knows he's going to die in the darkness, he's never going to get the credit, and yet we still.
Got to sunrise.
I'll never see.
Exactly and we still all get these moments, these hopeful moments, like when he finally hears from Lonnie what the real plan has been of the energy and he understands that in that moment, Okay, the super weapon, this is why we've been doing it, Like he has to make that decision in that second of like, this is the thing we're going to risk it all for. I think that's incredible.
And yeah, Joe, does anyone have anybody else other than I.
Could just all talk about Luther? My name is not Minus, but hey, choose yours. Who's your MVP?
Uh So this is slightly uh a left field of it, But for me, I just want to call out Luke Hole, the production designer.
I love.
The world that he created, whether it's Gorman right, or whether it's Ferricks in season one, or all the the stuff on Chorus on it, but particularly Gorman for me, unbelievable. Episode eight I think is the most transcendent of the
season for me. If for me it's eight and season one episode ten one way out right with a sunless space at the end, that notion of how they created something so practically beautiful and connected that the artists could move through and do their performances that had such a strong base in the canon, and as well as continuing to grow from that and not be constrained by that.
It's just an amazing achievement of what he did, and that idea of having one person's vision carried through the entire show amazing.
Yeah, agreed, Mike. Going back to character wise, my would mine would be Claia. I think Claire is the underdog for me. I think she's always been an interesting character, but I loved getting to see the way that she moved through this season. I think that in the final moments of this season also, she is like the only person who could do what needed to be done, which was kill Lutheran and make sure that his sacrifice wasn't
in Vain. I think that episode is unbelievable, and I think that we get to see someone who is as dedicated as Luthen but is also more emotionally connected to the person that she has to take out of this world because he raised her. And I personally am a big fan of the Clayer is and Or sister theories. I think that's really great and I kind of love that, as Tony has said in interviews, like she doesn't get any closure, We're not going to get to find out
what else is going on with her. But I kind of like how loose it is because the reality is, you know, even in something like Star Wars, but with and Or, we are talking about a version of reality. You wouldn't just randomly find out that that was your long lost sister. You know, there would be ye, there's no more in space exactly.
I'm anti that theory though, like I, it's the same as Ray, like, she doesn't have to be you know, she doesn't have to be Claya and Or or whatever their name was before that became. And the idea that Cassia never knows what happened to his sister and he is always trying to fill that gap with other people and rescuing people and building his family at all times. And so I love the fact that Tony's like, we are not going to make that that.
I can say that a lot of people.
I say I respect that a lot because I feel the same way about Rayla, Like I think it really destroys her to bring her into the fold. I was like, Oh, it's really cool that she's.
Just Yeah, nobody needed race Skywalker.
Like why the andor and clear are like brother and sister works for me for a couple of reasons. One, there's the holes they leave us for this are really beautiful. You do not know the little girl's name when she meets Luthen, but you do get her name. Actor is Clia and her sister's name is Carrie. Lufing goes from uh well captain. It starts with an L like reality is is a like a small adjustment to his actual name. So we see in this like name changing situation, that
they're the same. On top of that, I really think like there's something to be said about the way they handle things. One of the main things we get from Cassians. He's a guy who hides things a lot, like he from the shower, he pulls down the gun and stuff. The very first thing we see Claiya do when she gets back to the safe house and start pulling things out of the wall, the like connections.
Country for all Men call back with.
And I think like these What really works for me is like Star Wars starts with two siblings who don't know who they are, fighting the rebellion in their own ways and coming together save the galaxy. This just feels like such a great mirror to that without destroying the authenticity and impact of They'll never know it, they don't need to know it at all. I think that their
story holds up and it's great. But us getting to know and see, like my heart like and the fact that Luvin sort of at different ages but like raised them, brought them into this foldings.
Oh, I love that. I love that take look at us also as well. I would say, like I like, I like Tony Gilroy is never not going to be Tony Gilroy. He's out here and he's going to be making his broad statements about history and about the wildness of the galaxy. He was never going to come in and be like, yeah, their siblings. But I kind of love that. Just like any other Star Wars project or Dune project or any sci fi project, people are going to have their theories, They're going to have their kind
of conversations. And that was one that I thought was really interesting because I had not conceived it, but I love hearing other people kind of talking about why it worked. And when Joel broke it down like that, I was like, well, I just think that's a lovely echo, even if it's not about yeah exactly.
They're from the same community.
M M.
There is a family nature that and they were both raised by radicals in their own way as well. With my Okay, Jason, who's your MVP.
My MVP is I'll do a haircut on some of what we've heard, and myv is the relationship between Claya
and Ah. I think that Claia gave him something to live for and m a reason to fight, and kind of the first was, in a real way, the first member of his army that he had assembled, the first member of the of the rebellion, and he gave her the way to do it like she was as you would expect and as we saw in these episodes, like full of rage, full of anger, wanting to lash out at the Empire in an almost suicidal way, and he says to her that thing that really that line that
really sticks with me, which is she asked, like, when do we start fighting back? And he says, we fight to win. That means we lose, and we lose, and we lose and we lose until already and that patience is how the rebellion was built. She's the only one I think who would have been one hundred percent guaranteed to follow through and what needed to be done, which
is Peter Luthen dies fall into the Empire's hands. I think everybody else, even Cassie, and for as ruthless as he is, would have launched some sort of crazy rescue rescue.
He can't help it. He's it's got a little bit too much hot.
That's why I was.
It was only Claya, I think, who could see it through, and the two of them together alone, either one of them.
Would not have been as effective.
The idea that they needed to stay for as long as they did paid off obviously in the in the Intel that led to the destruction of the Death Star, but without each other it would have all fallen apart. We saw as as Joel pointed out Luthen cracking already like under the pressure, and Claya literally.
You know, getting a hands bloody pulling out the the bug. You know, there's no way Lutheran could have done that, like they were what a scene. That was such an unbelievable scene. Also like the literal kind of representation of like Mon doesn't know the way that Hans have to get due and in that room it is like the literal like kind of representation of that.
Yeah.
I also just think as well, like about Claya, is I that episode where she has to kill Luthen and make sure it's done, we also see that she is she has been hidden in this business, hidden in plain sight. She's always stressed at people, she's always pissed off. But we also see that, Yeah, part of the reason for that is she can fucking handle herself, Like she takes
out all of those stormtroopers. She is ready to fight, but she has had to be playing this part and I think that is also such an interesting part of her character. And yeah, I love Claya And those were all great, and we also see what.
Before we move off of those two things, One we get to see how Clea teaches Luthan, and I found that so that the bartering scene was tied your shout out to the little girl. She's such a great actress. She really killed that role. And I think like understanding that Luvin's first disguise is actually taught to him by
Claia and not the other way around. Like what he is good at is the span as the patient seeing the big picture, which she is great at is those interpersonal reactions, and he learns that from her because he from what we see of him with his troops like not great checking in personality. It doesn't seem like things are going well socially, and so I really feel like we get to that side of Claya as well. And and the fact that so much of Luthan is her,
I was like, that's amazing. I also just really want to call out I think Luthen his song makes him ess here at BB Luthan of Coraissant is one of the most beautiful haunting songs, and we get the starts of it when Claya is in the apartment by herself, just staring out the window. It is gorgeous and dark and like lovely and inspiring and really encapsulates this character that we've gotten to know, and I think the best Star Wars characters get amazing songs. This is an amazing song.
M Can we just shout in terms of per Can we just say Lonnie like Lottie?
I want to say that.
I love Huan and he is obviously the top three most important figures in the Rebellion ever historical and I am not one to argue with his decisions being surrounded by danger.
And you're not like saying you would have done it differently.
You don't know, did deserve better?
He did?
Oh my god, he absolutely deserved better.
And I'm not sure what decisions could have been made previous to his ignominious gut shot on a park bench, anonymous death on a park bench, but it feels like there must have been something that either party, Luthen or Lonnie could have done just make the outcome a little better, because that guy literally gave his life to get the death start Intels and to go out like that, and you know, I'm sure his family is in a prison like three floors up from Dedra.
It's I feel bad for that.
I think it's the Luthan I got just part of the the kind of unraveling of Lutheran is in that moment, he's so scared and he's like, I don't have time to deal with this, like we know what the issue is. But no, I mean, they absolutely could have just sent him to a like beach planet with his family like there was. I definitely believe there's a version where Lonnie could have existed, but I think that the set up very clearly.
You can tell from that exchange that at some point in the past Luthen had said, we'll get you off planet, write you and your family off planet, and it just became too late.
They were.
They were on Lutheran within an hour of that conversation.
It was so, yeah, it's too late, But yeah, I'm glad he got out.
He was also he was isolated though right, like he didn't have to say, well, I'll take you to Yavin, like he could have let Lonnie take his chances and maybe he gets out. But if he doesn't get out, he could only burn Luthen.
And Lonnie is not going to stand up if we don't have a collapse immediately with.
Funny guy.
I'm glad, yes, with respect because he took on immense stager. Let me ask you this the decision to not tell Luthen right away that I'm across I'm across Dedra's computer like for a year.
This argument is the reason he dies because.
His argument is, well, Luthen, you would have pushed me to like scrape all this intel, and then that would have been blown up way earlier. Doing it my way, I was able to get this like last little drip of intel that tells us there. Maybe he's right about that, But what is your your thoughts on that? Should he have told lu Because I agree with you, Rosie, this is kind of why he's dead.
I think if he'd have told Luthen, you know, two weeks prior. I think that there's some other version of this where Lonnie decides it's worth it to tell Lutheran. But I also think that with the things that going the way they are on Gorman and our understanding of how the empire is working at this point, and the push to finish the Death Star, I also do think there is a reading of this where this is the moment he tells Luthen, because this is the moment he
finally puts everything together and understands what's going on. So I don't know if there is an earlier time that he can present this information without Luthen just saying, oh yeah, show me how to do it and then shooting him in the head. You know, that's kind of the danger with Luthen.
To me, the big thing here is one of the massive questions of this show the entire time for two years, who is going to get the information about the Death Star? And for me, I was always wondering, was Carn going to flip on Dedra and he was going to provide it? I also that feeling, was Dedra going to flip on the Empire after Karn was killed and was she going
to provide it? No, in the end, it's Lonnie who was the reliable source who Luthan was willing to kill thirty people, let thirty people die on a mission in order to protect Lonnie and keep in placed and always in position. And Lonnie came through, and that is the ultimately the justification for Luthan's entire mindset and method. This is how I liked it was all the plan.
Yeah, yeah, Okay, let's take a quick break and we'll be right back, and we're back.
Okay.
We talked about our MVP, who are our you know, either group or singular LVP.
Who's the least valuable player in all of that is the leaders of the rebel Alliance.
And the way.
I was so mad.
I was so mad at that guy, Like, what the.
Fuck dude, who is it?
Wait, it's it's not the Donna, right, we need to get the actual, the actual Let's let's.
Another Saturday.
And shame him.
But I completely agree. We've been talking about this in chat.
Other than mon Mothma, everybody else is like a Johnny cup lately who just got here and now is throwing their weight around and they don't know the snakes what's been happening here?
Not using a code if unless it's the height of necessity. To and Or's point, even if it is a trap, we still need to go because.
This is a message that doesn't change anything.
He wouldn't fold otherwise, like something is happening, we need to go check it out for them to be like, excuse me, you need a flight plant, move get out.
Who's Claire?
Yeah, everybody's like what just the ratus ratus strategic genius in a military sense.
Yeah, man, yeah, it's it's very.
Frustrating, but this is this is this concept that the central thing that Tony wanted to tell right, the fact that there are different stages in an insurgency, and we knew from the beginning that Luthen was not going to be able to make it all the way through, and this idea of people they don't even know everything that he's done, they just have heard enough that they're like, we, wo,
we cannot be associated with those kinds of things. Uh, now that we've got X wings and people in uniforms and you know, we're trying to be this this real rebellion. So I thought that was extremely effective to show that Tension and even Clay are being so afraid to go to Yavin and then when they get there and Cassie is like, yeah, it's gonna be fine when we get there, and he's like, oh, I'm fucked, I'm rounded.
Sorry.
Yeah.
Also as well, like it's the fear of, like you know, at some point the empire, the rebels are going to have to like look like they're like cleaning up the rebellion and making sure that the people who've been doing dangerous things and blowing things up, and you've got to like have that fear of like well, am I going to be the scapegoat? You know? And I will say he did not come up in our MVP conversation, but I do always want to shout out, you know, Sawgerera.
I think obviously Lutheran is a central figure in this, and we get to see how his version of the rebellion is. But let's remember that by the time we get to Rogue One, mon Mathma is already basically writing Sow out of the rebel story. He is the scapegoat. She's like, he is the one who's doing too much. He's the one who's blowing things up. But the reality, as we learn in and Or, is he is the one who's doing the missions that allow the rebellion to survive.
He is the one who is getting the fuel that they need, who is getting the parts that they need, And he is the one who is puff that rider exactly. And he's the one who's emboldening people like Will who at the beginning of this season, you know, we saw struggle with the balance between both, but Saw radicalized him
in a way that enabled him to stay alive. And I do think that, you know, as a Sogrera apologist, he was, He's another person who I think the rebel leadership like let down and also like made a mistake pushing away so so variantly because they are a mess, and as we see as we head into the original trilogy, they do not get this ship sorted quickly enough and there is even another death style that gets to be built. So let's be real about the success over the rebels.
Like they didn't they didn't have Luther's network.
David's Dravin is the guy who lv I will I'll say the Dravid.
Will, I'll I'll stick up for the.
Council even the way I agree they are the LVP like this, but here's how I'm gonna stick up for them. And I think, Hit, you're exactly right in that. What this show is telling us, what Tony is showing us is like, hey, guys, democracy means everybody doesn't get what they want all the time. And in order to keep legitimacy, keep that tent big, bring all the people into the fight that wouldn't otherwise have joined. If you know it was just Saw and Cassie and you know, Do and
all this stuff. It is these kind of tensions are just part of it. It's going to be really frustrating, but it's part of it and I respect that that they decided to tell that story to add that aspect of it. And I think the rebellion is there's a reason that you don't have like military junta figures, Like at the top of the rebellion.
It's not like, you.
Know, it's mon Mathma, it's it's former senators. And yes, you have this military aspect, but it's not like you know, Grandma f Tarkin.
Like five grands you know what I mean.
And I think that that is.
I think that's why the republic is something that people still are trying to rebuild at this point in time in galactic history, because it lets everybody have a voice. And when you let everybody have a voice, you have issues like people who don't know what the fuck is going on saying, wait, were you going with that ship?
How dare you? Who the fuck is Luthen?
And that is yeah, and that is really frustrating. And I found myself being like, what the fuck did John? You know, Jan shouts to Dodonna who does die and gives his life to the cause, but like in retrospect,
what did he really do? Like other there's just scheduling coming calib yeah, and it's it is really frustrating, but I think it's a necessary aspect to democracy and to leveling up this fight so that it's not just you know, a bunch of scattered freedom fighters slash terrorists blowing up stuff and stealing things.
Like it's a real, right, actual movement.
And I want to say, like, obviously we talked about him already, but I do just want to say to me, it is like so, and I know you would hate to hear somebody just saying this kind of stuff, but like, it is so astonishing that Tony Gilroy took this tiny seed of what he was able to put into andor which was.
The question and the statement of like hey, yeah, look who's getting the medals and look who did the work and we'll never get the recognition, which to me is why rogue one. I saw that in cinemas like three or four when it came out, because it just blew me away. And also everyone wanted to see it. I remember it was a family thing. It's it's Thanksgiving or whenever it came out, like let's all go together, we
have to watch it. That moment spoke to me. But that was not what everyone got from that shirt that movie. It was a brilliant Star Wars action movie with a
bleak ending. It twisted, you know, it shocked people. But to me, the fact that Tony was able to sow that seed there and then expand it into a series that will go down as not only one of the best entries into Star Wars, but one of the best entries into TV that then extrapolates that to the point where we are in a situation where The Atlantic and The New Yorker are writing about this show and its political impact as much as people on the Internet are
talking about it. Like, I do think it's an astonishing feat and I think that the level of writing and the kind of understanding of humans and aliens and whoever else that Tony has is just like just unbelievable, And I think the show is like a testament to that.
Yeah, I mean, it's rare that you get a show that can accurately explore like the truth and underbelly of like a peaceful movement, you know what I mean, Like a non violent protest is not for the people, it's for everyone watching as a way of being like, hey, even when we're standing here doing absolutely nothing. They're willing to kill us and show it to you. Please come help.
And I think the if we just look at the last three sets of episode really the last six, like that whole middle section is doing such a good job of exploring like what happens when a small community with very little resources comes under attack. And I think there's not many shows and again I keep comparing it to Watchmen, but I just think it's probably the most apt Peter
this show has. Is it's like the to be able to explore with such rich contexts, deeply complicated like human situations when it comes to like both interpersonal politics and politics on like a grand scale, like that's a deft pen. And then also to turn around and goes one of the best spy moments in episode ten. That's a whole spy movie that of exquisite nature, like we're feasting. I'm sad it's over, but I'm also glad we get to Eves.
I want to call that, you know, like recency bias has us talking about and Orcy, Yeah, which is the reason we're having this round tail. But I just want to speaking of death pens and kind of like a a philosophical MVP of the of the show Neemic who his manifesto? Whose manifesto is so powerful and influential that party Gaz is listening to it before he kills himself, and.
He's so stressed the other people can hear it.
He just knows, I mean it kind of kind of is the the encapsulation of the problem the Empire has is they can't squeeze hard enough to stop that.
The tighter, the more systems will slip through your fingers.
Exactly, and the more that manifesto will spread and clearly has spread across the galaxy. So shouts Stemic and yeah, an incredible piece of writing within Star Wars Unbelieved Manifestos.
And also h like you guys cover You know, obviously the pocoff began as a joom pod and now it is this broader sci fi genre movie explosion kind of exploration. You just hit two hundred and fifty episodes with Jason and with Jason. Juan joined you here too for Empire. But you, me and Jason talked quite extensively on the pot about like political movies and thrillers and like films like Come and See and Army of shadows, and obviously Dune is one of the old original kind of allegorical
sci fi stories. So how much of that was what you loved about Andal because it's a great Star Wars story, but it's a great human story.
Yeah.
So we had been tracking and talking about and waiting for and Or for over a year right for season two to come back, And it was really the events after January twentieth of this year where we were all kind of like languishing in the discord, kind of dealing with day after day like just can't believe the news we are seeing in our everyday life, and this march towards a more authoritarian situation, and we were like, we've got to start watching and Or our season one right
now and talk about it. And it became a lifeline and a place where we could explore the themes that we were having such pain in but in an unconnected way, and then filter it back. So this show showing the power of resistance exactly to say Joelle, that people showing up for other people and allowing them to see something and understand that acts of resistance do have me and that we're gonna find our way and it's going to be an unexpected avenues and unexpected actors who step into
the breach. So for me, that that that was the whole thing of what Tony has done here. It's so powerful.
Let's take a quick break in the griff and we're back. Okay, let's settle this.
You know, one of the essential Star Wars questions, I think do droids are droids truly alive in that they have some sort of soul and spirit or are they just merely highly advanced analytical, large language models that tell you what they expect you want to hear.
I think that has been enough evidence. Whether it is R two D two choosing not to tell you know Anakin, or whether it is the kind of mass murder kind of passion that Chopper has. I think that there is enough evidence that droids have personalities in this world. And I think it is because in Star Wars, every single character is just made up of the people that they've
met and the people that have changed them. And I think that the droids are a representation of that because it is to do with who fixed you and who spoke to you, and who taught you this and who gave you that. And I think that for the stories to have the impact that they have, the droids have to have some kind of sentience, because like when you see K two s and he is just absolutely fucking bodying Nazis, you feel that this is something that has
actually been kind of suppressed in him. And when he is able to fully just explode and use his full power and use it for good and kind of create a rapport and relationship and play games with these people, it feels so natural and it feels moving. And I think that is because we see them in that way. And for me, I think they have to. They have to have kind of whatever you would say, a soul, a spirit, some kind of cognizant understanding of themselves. I think that they have to. And I love droids.
H I don't believe in souls for humans, but I do believe in consciousness. So, you know, I was just talking to my son who's seven. You know, he said, I don't believe in heaven, and I was like, I don't believe in heaven either. But part of the reason why our lives have so much meaning is because we have this opportunity to interact with others and to have this experience and become a fully shaped person and help people. So to me, like K two.
Killing it in the game, are two?
They're they're just as they're just as real and valuable as anyone else with that consciousness.
Yeah, K two being like so confused in the card game, trying to be like, well, statistically, this is not making any kind of sense. I love sort of the hybrid space we've ended up in Star Wars, where your programming is programming, but your interactions with that programming make you like or what give these robots personification? And I do think droids have soul's consciousness, however viewer you choose to
describe it. I think, you know, we get to see K two make a sacrifice if you roll directly into Rogue one after this and make a very clear choice to and his existence. You know, we don't know if you can revive this version of Okay, we've seen three pob revived, so there's some hope in my heart that if the right people, But who's going back to that planet.
Even you know, in the first season of The Man Glorian you get that huge sacrifice, and I think that there is something Yeah, and also as well, like just I think something that Tony did really well here that maybe if it had been in the movie and there hadn't been as much exploration of it, people would have been like, Oh, that's gimmicky, or that's like that's too kind of corny or cheesy. As I be too. Emo
is always so worried about Cassio. My gosh, Cassian to be there, and he wants to know Cassian's gonna be okay. And I think that is an explicit There's no reason that you're programming would make you put it across in that way. You know, I think like the nature of the worry and the anxiety and the kind of and we got that in you know, we have much maligned it on the show. But in Rise of Skywalker there is a droid with anxiety, which I did think was
an in resting kind of twist. And yeah, I think I am a I'm a droid, droids have consciousness or else. Star Wars kind of doesn't mean anything.
Just how relieved I am that Biggs has ended back with Beat. He's not alone, our little guy is now that they left him alone. He was incapable hands. But I'm just glad he's back with family. I was worried about our guy.
And I knew that was going to happen. If you feel so clear that that that reunion was going to be there. It was just adding the third character that that blew my mind.
Uh, And so okay, I need to ask about it, seeing as the babies come up again so many many weeks. So I will say this is I believe it was alis R in our in our discord pose the idea. And I'm sorry to be the Dave Filoni of this podcast.
I know this is going to annoy some people, like somebody posed the idea in our discord and this has now popped off because somebody did a hilarious meme prediction that ended up feeling alone bit more true to life at the end of this that Cassie and and Bis are Podamren's parents, and at the end she is holding you know, baby Podamren. Now, I will say in Star Wars it is there has been a problem where if people of the same race are in Star Wars, they are usually related. So I would say, this is a
fair this is a fair bet. We did it. There was a little bit of contentious conversation in the discord because uh, pod Ammren does have established parents, but that doesn't really matter, honestly, and they were established in the comics. And I will say one thing I do love about this potential theory is in the comics what we learned that his mum and is a famous fighter pilot and she goes on a mission with Luke and she finds a force tree, and then Poe grows up with this
force tree in the garden. That's just a story I would love to see Bis embark on, even if it is not because she is Poe's mother. So yeah, I just want to put out there, is the baby connected to Star Wars? Is the baby just a representation of hope and that life goes on? Like, how do you guys feel about those kind of theories popping up? H I'm gonna go to you as as a man who I believe probably just enjoys the textual nature of what Tony's putting down.
Yeah, I just for me, it's magic because it doesn't have a connection. And so I'm very happy for that baby to be somebody, And I'm sure they have a meaningful life that they have in Star Wars, but it doesn't have to be po in order to have it be really special for me, and I think again the magic trick, it wasn't just that Tony had to create
the and or show that explained his journey. It's the fact that he found an entire pocket of Star Wars where he could operate with complete freedom and have it be unconnected from everything else and have all of the meaning that we love, and so that I think I just want to hold with that space that he can.
I think it's fun and I think it's like emotional, and the impact of it is like it doesn't it's not taken away by it being nobody that makes it more special, you know. But then obviously, I think as Star Wars fans and especially people who love the animated series and stuff, and.
The people who read a lot of X Men comments.
You can't kind of help start making those connections. Joelle, I know me and you were both big We enjoyed how this theory made us feel.
So I will say that in the initial discovery of it and reading it in the discord, I was like, that's exciting because I had seen it's so funny this person predicted the baby before the baby showed up in the episode. Yes, yes, and I had already seen these episodes, so I was like, how did what is going on? So I had like some time to sit with it and think about it. In the end, I think I do sort of feel the same way that I felt. And they were like, oh, Finns related lander.
Could you imagine that there's more than three Latinos in space?
Like right here you are? So I think, and I just think, like me, that baby represents like everything about the show, like if you oh man, like the ability to go back to the space that felt like home for Bicks, to like raise a kid there, to find a relative sense of peace finally for her, like I think this. You know, we talked so much about our fear of Bis getting fridged.
And then the.
Yeah, there was a lot of folks who felt like betrayed when she left. They were like, how could you leave Cassian? And even now I will say what I was like, she'd better not be holding a baby. I was like, this, bitch, I'm so upset, how dare you play?
Told him he would have absolutely like the whole point, like I know that you cannot you can barely focus worrying about me, And because Cassian lost his whole entire family fighting this thing and understands what is to grow up, you know, first having lost a set of parents and then mourning another one murdered in the town square. Like I don't think Cassian could put his kids through that. I really think like the whole concept of fatherhood would
have changed him. And BIGX was like, but you're doing the highest good here, and you're really good at this. There's no one Luthen trusts more except Clia, Like you have to stay and I need peace. Like she she's breaking down under this, not because she's the weak person, but because she.
Is like for so much more than every much more.
She couldn't be there with a baby on Javin, trying to trying to send and around on missions no.
And so for her to carve out a space of peace for herself, I just thought, like, this is the most beautiful possible ending you could give her.
And that shot, that shot of her in the field, my god.
Kind of like looking up to the sky of knowing that Cassian's doing the thing he needs to do. And I also love exactly and I also love the the while I the openness that Tony gave us here, which is like you can have whatever version of that ending that you want, Like for now, you can imagine that that baby is whoever you want, or it's nobody. I would love to see Bicks get to be a kind
of more classical rebellion hero. But you know what else, I would love for her to just be able to live on like Big Week forever with her baby and just raise a chill baby in the happiness and the freedom the few years a bit that they get from the sacrifice that Cassian left, and I think that that
is a really powerful place to leave us. And also, as somebody put in the group chat, you know, the only person who's getting fridged in this show is it was Cyril They Fridge the guy, which like never happens.
How about the hat trick of the show is called and Or, And we always assumed that it's about it's about Cassian, but when we get to episode twelve of season one, we realize Marva and Or is the one who first likes to spark on Feryx. And then now we have a third and Or who is born, and so in a way, it's it's reflecting all three generations.
I love it really is.
Oh wow, I hadn't thought about that. I just think this flows really well into the cannon of Star Wars, and it really sets of blueprint for other creators who might want to come in and dabble in this universe in ways that are different. You know. I was reading that some people felt like this was a pretty nihilistic show. I beg to differ.
Very hopeful.
Yeah, not only is it very hopeful, but like, if you're a nihilist, there's really not a reason to fight, Like, there's no there's no reason to get up in the morning and and try to fight in these streets as a nihilist, what do you It doesn't make no sense. I just feel like there's there's so much beauty and hope and love in this show and the way that they've allowed again big holes for us to either feel
in theory. You know, we love doing that space for other writers come in and pick up the story in enough left on the end that if you wanted to pick up this story an interesting way, you can without all interfering with what's been done here. I think it's just brilliant, ye, Jnihilism.
Yeah, well, I was gonna say, Jason, is there anything you think they missed? Like, is there is there anything you you wish they would have done or a different a different choice.
Not really, I mean it was in his bag.
I do think that there was.
I was always interested in the interior imperial politics, you know. I think that they did a good job of sketching the the frictions between the different levels of hierarchy in and how you know, you've always got to be completely subservient to whoever your bosses, and very careful to never outshine your boss.
Or the rule of two is like real doing some filter. It's filtered down down, politics hapened, and so I really enjoyed, you know, like Krenick is such a.
He's such an evil, but like almost comically slapstick, like he doesn't understand that he's stepping on rakes every time he turns this way, and that he doesn't understand or see the full scope of what a fucking dumbass he is.
He's definitely someone who's been given power without having had to earn it at all, because there's no concept to your point, Jason, of like how are my actions having caught everyone? Even your closest at part of gas is like, uh, hey, guy, you should have been done with this, like a long time ago.
We are wide, are they?
He sound like Tarken. Dude, calm down, fine, We're almost there.
You don't understand the whole project hinges on one guy who doesn't even want to be.
Building the.
Don't worry, We'll make him do it and so, And from.
That perspective, I.
Would have liked a little bit more Empire, but I don't need it, and I you know, I'm left with absolutely no qualms about everything that I saw. I think it was the show so far exceeded my expectations that it's kind of the only.
Turn that I wanted to see, and I did not expect it. But as a season began, I had a soft spot for the ultimate l v P parent.
Oh so seeing him and that last time.
With Golden's wife.
So, so what happened to.
Perfect? It's so good, it's too good.
This is your daughter's mother in law.
Parents fucking good.
And I don't think you fight off the gags the parent made poor parent's dead.
Well, I think scolding is yeah, skulling clearly like out of the picture, maybe for various.
Reasons, and uh.
Also hi, yeah, maybe moving up or for whatever reason.
I guess, But I wanted to see Paren like he was the young firebrand, and I was hoping that in some small way, not that he would go to Yavin or something, but that in some small way he would have been inspired by Mon's choice and and made some contribution. That's the only change I would have like seen.
It makes sense, I will say that.
I here's what I love about the Parent character is, you know, I think anybody that's been around like uh, progressive politics, protests or whatever, he's aware of the person who's like there because it's cool, right, And I think, you.
Know, Paren was kind of one of those.
He had a lot to say, but he is not interested in doing anything more than that. His wife is incredibly hot, and for a while he's just like going along with it. Rich he kind of hates to see her shine or kind of move beyond his his meanings, I think. And he made his choice. And we talked quite a lot about that moment because it is so depressing and sad when you just see him there and it's like, yeah, drink through it, man, enjoy your plu in this to.
Me is a nihilistic That's a nihilistic character who just says, yeah, let's just let's.
Just keep going.
Let's just drink through it and uncomfortable.
Enough, and I can medicate myself through this, and that's fine. The nihilism charge is interesting to me because to me, what I think people are saying with that is.
That they just want a happier ending.
They want they were heroes.
They the level of sacrifice makes them uncomfortable in the context of us Star Wars story, and they want to see those metals get pinned on chests.
Yeah, and if there is a legitimate like claim to that, I know, here's what I'll say.
Okay, So I know that.
Star Wars is originally a series for children, and I think that's beautiful. And I think we have an egregious amount of content for children that is specifically Star Wars that speaks to them and warns of the dangers of war, which I feel like is really important. I also think it's really important that this show is talking strictly to adults about not just the consequences, but like what fallout looks like, like what sacrifice might have to look like.
The people that you might are being told are rebels aren't like, actually look at what they're doing. Examine that. Like, it to me really exemplifies what those lessons are supposed to be and drive them home for an older age. And I think that's great. I mean, we're all comics people. We're used to characters being shoved into different shapes and forms and tones to fit an audience. I think that
that's okay to have in Star Wars. And I think it's totally fine if you watch this and you're like, this is too blique for me, I'm not interested in I think that's totally fair. I completely understand that. I just I do think that I have a great deal of appreciation for this thing I've left for a long time, sort of growing up and step and in the space that I can step up to and and enjoy. I think it's important.
Yeah, I'm just gonna.
Get the accolades.
Do you think I think it's gonna get I think accolades.
I think are we.
Talking statues are talking hard.
I think it's gonna get.
I think it's gonna get nominations. Will it win questionable, that's still scared of genre, that's still scared of these kind of big I P properties. But I do think it's gonna I think it will get amount of nominations.
The critical claim is overwhelming, So they've got that and the people in the awarding post and never underestimate the power of the Disney marketing machine to make the case that this is a.
Great showering of awards. So I think it's got a good shot.
I think it's got a really good shot.
I think I think they'll follow a lot of shows other trends, which is like we'll really lean into eight and probably ten, go for what like Luthin, maybe Claya definitely and orm I think those are their acting categories.
From last from that season where it's like then you start to narrow in, like Bella won like three different awards, I think, and you start to focus. I think, if there's any justice, I do think Diego should be really in those conversations. But I also think Diego has the ultimate problem, which is he is so so talented that he makes it look easy and oftentimes award. If you are very consistent and always great, it can be really hard for a war shows to recognize you, and I
think that could be an issue. But yeah, I mean, as we have and many others have speculated, the drop format seems to imply it was because they wanted to get him for this year's Emmys and stuff, and it is the most highly rated and critically acclaimed Star Wars live action project ever, So I will be interested to see what this year's award season looks like. And I just want to say I do think on the nihilism frame,
and this is not a critique. I do think one of the reasons it's easy to make that read is because Tony's quotes. He is a man who has a realistic outlook on life. So he's out here and he's like, six thousand years of human history, most of it fucking sucked. He's like, most of it was famine, and this could be in any time. And if you don't see that, like thinking you live in a unique period of time
is like myopic. And I think his view on humanity and human history, which is just realistic, it can seem nihilistic. And I think if you're reading those quotes and the show is already kind of bumming you out, maybe you read it that way, but this is, you know, this is they have introduced.
Now, the.
Introduction of a rebellion is built on hope, and it's the guy who works the hotel in Gorman who makes that choice, makes that sacrifice, as Jason has been putting it this season, which I love, gums up the machine in any little way he can. And that is what the show is about. The show is about the hope of a rebellion. It's about the hope of something better for other people because you might not be here to see it, but you believe that the action you are
taking could help others. That's like the most hopeful thing you can have.
Yeah, And it was and or engaging him that in a way that other people hadn't engaged him, as he's dropped off bags in one hundred rooms a hundred times. He took the moment to draw him out and get that conversation that started it, that brought it back.
My god, I mean huge.
Let's take a quick break before them. The Emperor's shuttle arrives, the walkway descends, and himself comes walking down the gang plank to tell us his issues.
And we're back.
We're back.
Age.
If you have not been aware of what's been happening in these round tables, uh, we like to close the conversation by inviting super producer Aaron to the proceedings to just be a little bit of the dark side of the forest, a little bit of choking, a little bit of finger lighting, just a little bit, a little bit of evil thought projection, and to tell us, you know, all the things that were wrong.
About I'm actually so excited to see H's reactions to this. Aaron, tell us, what are the three worst things that happened in and in the finale?
In the finale, the three worst things are they introduced K two in a way that he's so overpowered that they couldn't have him anywhere else. He couldn't have been in the rest of the story because they it would have been three episodes and would be done because Kate the K two droids were fascinatingly strong and scary.
He is op and I love.
Yes, that's not really a bad thing. I did say, you know, I think it was last week. One of my biggest complaints was Cyril becoming like a hand to hand like true karate master out of nowhere.
Okay, all I have to say that that was the last expatch though, well, I just want to say the Discord did have some things to say about that, which was, you know, he used to be an agent, you think have some training.
He was secure a like, come on our and the discord was not happy about us.
Have you never signed someone up before? I look at Cyril one minute and I'm like, he doesn't know how to fight. I get that, butted him from it was like not. But I will say I did appreciate these three episodes actually made me change my mind because it really highlights this idea that even these individuals who are maybe fighting for the cause or the team, all of them are still being led by their own personal desires and biases, and so many of them went off the
rails in these three episodes because of that. Soddre is hell bent on finding Cassian and Luthan and that is her ultimate downfall, and so the same thing with Cyril. So I did actually kind of change my mind a little bit on that guys coal mine for it. Yeah, another thing, I mean I joked about it with K two s O what Another one of my complaints previously was did we need this hide of a budget? Like is this just gonna be bad if it doesn't the.
Wallet the wallet Inspector has returned.
And then they had K two playing cards.
Have you seen the budget for Indoor Season two? Mister Igerat's absolutely. Larren's texting Ike Palma and he's definitely are using some some low of safety clips.
In this one extra walk by for two seconds in full make up.
Okay, take how much?
But but then they had K two playing cards, and they had K two picking up people from their front plates and dropping them. Loved it. If they try a single dollar away from the K two c G I would have been upset.
So I appreciate.
I love this. It's turning around. I, in.
All honesty, didn't have anything to complain about with these last episodes. Jason brought Jason brought this up. One of my favorite things was looking inside the Empire and getting this really different view and seeing like the internal politics of party gas, realizing like I'm just gonna fucking I'm going down with the ship, like I have no way out, I'm just taking my life here, and then seeing the helmetless like bitch ass stormtroopers like I fucking hated them,
and it was so good. I was just like in my notes, I'm like these fucking cops and then like, hmmm, that whole hallway scene. I mean, Disney knows how to do a hallway scene. Yeah, I loved it, and I loved seeing them as these like the shaved heads and the big ass mustache, and I'm like, this is this is a different side of Stormtroopers we never see, Yeah, we never see their face, and then we never see them scared and that was really cool.
Okay, because of this, because you're here in a in an unbelievably shocking twist as a lover of the finalege.
And you kind of Darth Vader at the end, take off, take off, my.
Look upon you this time?
My own us?
And two do you still have them?
Annequin? Let's talk because none of us touched on this. So let's end on a celebratory note. How I'm not going to actually do a leading question? Do you enjoy Dead Dra's bye where we left? Because I think that was one of the most satisfying parts of the show for me.
I loved it so much. I couldn't think of a better way. Yeah, I couldn't think of a better way for her story to end with her. Like in that same my wife came home as I was finishishing the final episode, and so like I just burst out laughing at that moment. She didn't has not watched any of it, so I had to explain some of it to her. Then we went back and we watched all of the K two S scenes, so you see all of that.
But yeah, I loved it. I thought that was like such an incredible way, and she does an incredible job acting there where you there's no words, nothing, she just puts her hands in her head, in her hands, in complete defeat. And that, I I what an incredible callback to this place that I think the best episodes of season one agree and to have her there and it's like, you know, a lot of people didn't get things right, like you know, the family of anyone who's involved in
this probably died. And it is also, like you said, locked up in that same prison. But for her to be there, I love that. Yeah. Do you think she gets out? Do you think she gets out.
Five years the last time they'll ever let this happen?
Yeah, And we get a second death Star and we know.
This is where they're built. No way she's dying in here, She's getting moved floor to floor uto eternity.
I also know I will say there's a chance maybe in the New Republic era, that she gets that amnesty and gets to go.
To one of these Yeah, because she wants.
You know, like castaway facilities where you're reintegrated into But I think she never come I think.
The thing that is so powerful about that ending, and that I think is a really brilliant kind of lesson and statement is Dedra's dream was to be known for what she did and her part in the rebellion, and I mean her part in the empire and crushing the rebellion. And I think that we know from what we saw in Knakina before, and we know from the way that prisons work in the real world. Not that this show has any reflections of real life, obviously, let's not. Let's
not like draw any lines. I'm not come back. But like she is forgotten. That's the real truth. She will never get the credit. No one is thinking of her, and she knows because she has sent many many people to those prisons, that she is now forgotten. She is irrelevant. And what led her there was a quest and an obsession with basically punishing people and they end up there is so fitting.
It's perfect ending for this character who we followed through a lot of ups and downs. I think Denise Gout should walk away with the statue, like I agree anybody gets it, like obviously like what Scar's guard did Luvin is phenomenal. Yes, but there's such a like, my god, the her coming in for her victory laugh is hysterical, like the way she's able to play both the comedy of the scene because we understand Luthn is planned for this and so there's no way out for her, like
she's not gonna get what she wants. The doubled into triple on Hondras and the writing there. I just think that when we get Yeah, it's really beautiful writing, it picks up that night is like we don't know, it's authentic, like find out I don't know, Yeah to her like literally her fall to her feet, to the scene that we get with Krenick, which I mean Ben Meddleston on
a kick. But I just think like that ending for her, not only is it fitting, but like in the human side of Dedre that we got to see, like there's such an element of like, yes, all she wants is the glory and she's a bad person. She was really excited to torture Luthan, like she was like Doney coreabout She's like I've got time, okay for you.
I've been waiting in his belly.
Yeah, yes, near to death and then do it all over again. This is what she's the part of her job that she's most excited about. A despicable humor, which also a person who never again had any kind of sense of like love, like.
Well by the Empire, she was an orphan.
She's in a cult essentially, and how do you get rewarded in this cult by being the most ruthless And she's climbing the ladder. She's found a way. It's awful, but it's true. And then for them to show, okase like no matter what role you play, that you're gonna die like I just love the way they set that up with that.
Here's what's interesting to me about Dedra's character. As we as we have said many times, this is a show that has no connection.
To real life, but it's kind of the you know, we've gone through.
An age and government of like technocrats, people with immense intellect and ability to get into positions and just know how stuff works, right, and we see the value in that. I think Dedra would have thrived under the Republic or the New Republic exact same role I think she would be. I think people would be like, Wow, I'm just good at her job. Im Burials like great, but it shows you the danger of a technocrat with no ethics morals.
This is a person who was just like, I want to be great at my job and I don't really care of what the right or wrong about what we're doing. And those people are dangerous as well, though in a in a different context than truly bad actors, people who were out there with truly malign uh intentions, which I never thought Dejah really had true malign intentions. She was just like, this is I'm following the law. I'm I'm out here hunting down spies and I'm good at it.
I'm playing for the team. Yeah, I'm an MVP.
Will remember me well because yeah, need they need the planet right?
And again, I think if she was working for the Republic, people would be like, yeah, that's good, like we I have no qualms about working with Dad, and I think that what is so satisfying. In one of my darker moments on the off MI in the X Ray Vision, Zoom I once said to this gathering, not h but everybody else.
You know what, I've.
Decided that I'm pro mass incarceration, but only for the bad people, and that's how I feel about the final outcome for death. It's terrible the place that she's been thrown into, but I can't think of a better place.
Yea.
Yes, I have another should take We should dismantle that entire structure, but.
I'm glad to just leave her.
Yea.
I have another real world connection that I want to ask poses a question because in my head I was like, could we do some spin off that's like an X Force or I m F with like Claya and Vell and Bix and like them doing all anything that the Rebel Council cant to. But I came up with a better way of posing it. Who would win one hundred clayas or a rank RPS and we give Clay and Claia gets to like outfit the room that they're fighting.
Are so overrated.
There is very I think one could be around.
And the muscles around the throat of the ring cord clearly mers strong enough to protect the wind pipe.
And if you get to that wind.
Pipe, it's.
Most video games and even I have beaten irand Court just throwing some bones to distract it before I get my light sabers out like I think Clay I will be fine. Yes, thank you, this is a joy.
Season two our final season two Xtra Vision round Table.
H h.
Thank you for joining us and being such a wonderful guest and voice on the round table.
Thank you for having me you yes, yeah, you'll you see. Yeah, you could find a skate patch wherever you listen to your podcast. We just did episode two hundred and fifty with Jason Concepts.
We did a vampire strikes back.
It's an amazing episode and I would say folks should also check out Rosy's to entry which was Twilight, which is a legendary episode. But we have and or coverage and everything. Just check check it out online.
Yeah, and lots of crossover between our two discords, so if you're already get an x ray Vision discord, you'll feel just at home, just as at home at the Escape Patch Discord.
We we love y'all.
We appreciate so much everything you've done.
Thank you so much.
Yeah.
Coming up this week on x ray Vision Tomorrow, join us for news and a couple of interviews with the cast and creators for Apple TV Plus's new Murder Bots series and adaptation Yes Books. Then on Monday, we'll see how Ellie breaks our heart this week with the last of US two six. Tuesday, we're celebrating the dual anniversaries of Empire Shrinks back to the Revenge of the Sith. Thursday, We've got a New We've Got Thursday, We've Got a Need for Speed recaps of the entire Mission Impossible series.
And then Friday, we're introduced to the new series, in which we will feature our long delayed review of Sinners Saturday.
For this episode, thanks for listening, Bye bye.
X ray Vision is hosted by Jason Sepcion and Rosie Knight and is a production of iHeart Podcasts.
Our executive producers are Joel Monique and Aaron Kaufman.
Our supervising producer is Abu Zafar.
Our producers are Common Laurent Dean Jonathan and Fay Wag.
A theme song is by Brian Vasquez, with alternate theme songs by Aaron Kaufman.
Special thanks to Soul Rubin, Chris Lord, Kenny Goodman, and Heidi our discord moderator