Warning, this podcast candad spoilers for the finale of and Or and some minor spoilers for the film Rogue one Book of It. Hello, my name is Jason Cantepsion and welcome to x ray Vision, the Cricket podcast, where we dive deep into your favorite shows, movies, comics, and pop culture. In this episode, it's the big and Or finale episode.
We're gonna be discussing the and Or finale, and the Airlock and the Hive Mind more and Or with Atlantic staff writer Adam Sewer, who wrote a really really interesting piece in The Atlantic about the show, and in nerd Out, Liz theorizes about an and Or character's possible connection to the Force And of course, if you want to jump around, check the show notes for time stamps Enemy Today. She's the only one that knows what happened on Canari. She
is a daughter of Ferris. She knows all about Sagarera's extremism, but she's not gonna talk about it anywhere else but here. She is the great, the powerful Rosie Night, Rosie, how are you?
I'm good? Tell her it's true. I saw was right. I just need to say that she was apologist. He was always right.
We're gonna talk about this at length because he continues to write he was right early, he's still right, and he will continue to be right. Yep, and he just does not get the credit he deserves. How is your Thanksgiving?
It was a very good chill time. I ate food with my friends and I watched a lot of movies and worked on a very cool secret project. I can't talk about proper break, but it was nice to just be able to give slow down.
Can you give like one very very vague hint.
It is a comic book format. It's in the comic book formats. That's the end I can give you. But yeah, I missed, I missed being hand talking to you. But it was is nice to to just take some time and nice to be able to like really dig in to and Or and kind of watch it and take in that unreal finale before we kind of dig into it here.
I had I had family in town. Oh lovely went all around. I baked bread. We realized that we realized that one of our family members who had COVID like two months ago and has been like, oh, my taste hasn't come back. My taste hasn't come back stuff tastes weird. We realized when they were here that what was going on is their taste had come back at a certain point. They're just eating bad food.
Where you will in La and you will eat some food and you will know the flavors will be there as soon as you know.
We like, ordered some Italian from Jonavitti's and and immediately it was like this Pesto's delicious. Holy holy cow. Like what looks like the taste is back, ladies, and that's wonderful. I'll have it back. Okay, let's get into it. Let's get into the andor finale. It's runoff time. Early voting starts Monday, November twenty eighth for the December sixth election.
If you're a Georgia voter, head over to vote Save America dot com to make your plan and if you want to help out, no matter where you live, you can donate and find remote and in person volunteer opportunities to make sure the Warnock campaign as the resources it needs.
Fifty one senators means the difference between a true majority or being faced with another two years of roadblocks like problem Children, Kristen Cinema Boo and Joe Manchin Boo make sure that every Georgia voter can make their voice heard again at Vote Save America dot com. We're stepping out of the airlock into the streets of Ferrik as the mournful but also inspiring funeral March is playing, and we're here to talk about the finale of and or Rix Road.
Written by Tony Gilroy, directed by Benjamin Karen gron Feryx. It is the day of Marv's funeral. Deirdre arrives on planet. She meets with all her imperial underlings, and you know, takes a peek into Bix's cell through the porthole. Elsewhere, Zen meets with Brasso after Brasso's shift, and Zen tells Brasso that, hey, I just got to call from Cassian. What that's right? I think Cassio Cassian's coming home. He knows that Marva died. Meanwhile, the ISB is all over Ferix.
They're crawling all over the streets, keeping a very close eye on Brasso. They're watching this this interaction happen. Meanwhile, also watching this interaction happen is Synta of the al Donnie Crue. They are waiting also for Cassian to show up because they would like to kill Cassian and close
that loose end. Later, Nerchi, the Frexian junk dealer, who is now informing to the ISB with absolute alacrity, is giving up every He can't wait to give it all up, wants to do it, wants to get off this this dust bowl of a planet. Is meeting Zan for a drink and he's like, you know, He's like, oh, you know, it's got to be who's going to place Marva's Stone, And that's got to be really eating at Cassian and
that's got to be so tough. And she is plays this very very, very very candily because he can kind of tell that Zan has some information. But then Nerchi covers it up by saying, Hey, if you know anything, keep it to yourself, don't tell me. But like can tell by the way that Zan is like stewing over his drink and clearly wants to say something that he knows something.
Yeah, And this is a great bit of foreshadowing too. Who will be there to place Marva's Stone. Don't worry. The stone will come in use in one of the most memorable scenes and you will see who places it and where they place it, and it's so good because that line just gets me.
Elsewhere, we see Wilman, who is the son of Solomon, a man who was previously in the series tortured by the ISB. We see him assembling some kind of device which we take to be a bomb on Coruscant. Mon is waiting in the limo for Paren. He gets in, they go off to ride off together, and then Man starts this argument with Paren where she confronts him about his gambling. How long have you been doing it? I
can't believe you're gambling again. If you want to do that, you know, go to Canto bite to do that, but don't do that here, and don't lie to me about it it and parents like, what the fuck are you talking about?
Like why are you guying on about? He's like many he does many things wrong, this man, But gambling is doesn't seem like I kind.
Of clean that. I've cleaned that up. I haven't been gambling. It's certainly not, on course not. Somebody is getting in your ear. They're trying to tear you down by attacking me. And anyway where would I get the money? And and Mon Is like, that's the thing that scares me the most. And of course all of this whole discussion is is for the benefit of Clorus, who man knows their driver, Clorus, who man knows it is an ISB agent slash informer.
Yeah, she's setting up her husband to basically take the fall for whenever this audit comes around.
She's laying the right where my husband's My husband gambled it away.
He gambled it away. And you know what, you know, I didn't just come up with this as an excuse, because didn't my driver. I tell you that six months ago right now, And.
It's actually super super smart that said, we know there's an and or season two, and you have to feel that this is not a permanent fix. Like this will buy her some time. Sure as they untangle this and try to figure it out, maybe follow Parent around, you know, like this will force the ICEP to spend some assets on Parent and see if he is really gambling. But ultimately the ISB will run this down and will figure out that that's not.
Especially because even if they don't figure out what she's actually been using the money for, they will know that she got the loan from Davos. They will find that out at some point and the question is how reliable is that man now that their families are connected through their children. Is he going to protect them? Will he sell them one down the river? This could be I think a big thread that we see in season two.
Does Mon get isolated from her wealthy family and her background, then does that radicalize her or does she have to just set allow people that she loves to protect us status so that she can stay in that place for spray a rebellion.
I wonder there is a great scene in the Great Series Rebels. I want to say it's like season two or three where Mon gives the speech that basically announces that the rebellion exists.
Right.
She gives that video speech where she's like, Hey, we have to fight the Empire. I am denouncing the Emperor today, I am resigning from the Senate. If you want to fight the Empire, come meet us in space and let's do that, and let's do this basically founding that the foundational moment of the rebel alliance. I wonder if we get a version, not like a retcon per se, but if we see that from the other side, because that would be pretty fun to I think see the Tony Gilroy version of the monds Like.
That's why I was going to say, come out one. We know how much the shows and the animated series have kind of leant into each other and become very and entwined, especially because Filoni's behind a lot of the
other live action shows. It will be very interesting as we move forward towards the time that we know in the main Star Wars timeline to see how those moments intersect, and to see what Tony translates from Rebels and Clone War was honestly shows that without which and are still probably wouldn't exist because those shows were what made Star
Wars television a viable possibility. But like you say, it would be fun to see Tony Gilroy translating some of those moments from what many people still essentially see as like a kid's TV show. In this the least kid's friendly Star Wars show of all time. Yeah.
Back on, feryx Vell meets her partner the safe house since to updates vel about all the movements of the ISB agents, various ISBA agents around town. They know they have to be very careful. She is ready to kill Cassian and or this.
She is a business. She is not about it, Santa is about it.
She is ready to pop him to save the network as soon as he shows his face. And yes, you're absolutely right. Vell throughout this episode and the previous episode is really troubled by this. Whatever. She just gets a vibe from Cassian, not to mention, he was really the most competent member of the Al Dani, Like, they would not have pulled it off if not for him, and so the idea of double crossing him, stabbing him in the back in order to keep him out of imperial
hands really really bothers her. You can you can really really tell?
Yeah, And I think as well, like the the privileged background that she comes from, ASM's sista, she even though she wants to leave it behind her, it is the safety of it I think is drawing her back. She wants to she did the Al Dannie, Wasn't that enough? She doesn't really know that it's a continuous struggle, whereas Cinta is very much in the mindset of like, I will do what has to be done for as long as it needs to be done. More of that Looth in school absolutely.
Cassian arrives back on Ferris and he finds Clem's brick in the streets. Marv's partner is essentially the man who raised him as a father, and he remembers a moment where Clem was teaching him to, you know, how to clean salvage equipment. And there's this wonderful, like small moment of like see, like most people wouldn't even look to see what's actually underneath all of this stuff. And he's thinking about that, and then he heads over to Bix's
shop and she's not there, but Pegla is there. And it's from Peg that Cassian learns that Bix is in the hands of the isb Cassian kind of a steel himself, goes off and listens to some of Nemeck's manifesto and it is elect It is truly like electrifying stuff, the kind of stuff you can't believe that.
Shall we read it? I have it?
Yes, read it?
Okay. In Star Wars, there will be times when the struggle seems impossible. I know this already alone, unsure, dwarfed by the scale of the enemy. Remember this freedom is a pure idea. It occurs spontaneously and without instruction. Random acts of insurrection are occurring constantly throughout the galaxy. There are whole armies, battalions that have no idea that they
have already enlisted in the cause. Yeah, I mean, it's incredible stuff, and the performance is so great, like it just it's the first of two incredible speeches of this finale. This one is my favorite. But it gets you so good.
It really just makes you think. Obviously, in recent years, Man's role in the rebellion has been it was always clear that she was incredibly important, but with Rebels and Rogue One and some of the books and stuff like,
it's become clear what a pivotal character she was. And then it's also clear that supporting her are people like Nemeck who provided we're seeing a lot of the philosophical framework for the struggle, and people like Marva who provided a lot of like the emotional impetus and inspiration for the struggle, who we just are never going to hear about. They're certainly never going to get a medal. They are not like revered heroes of the rebellion, and it is
really amazing to learn about them here. And also the other thing I was thinking about is like that the idea of like freedom, you know, being an organic and natural idea that just springs up when you are restrained, when you feel less free, you want to struggle against that. That's natural. I've been thinking a lot about that with this, with this story, and thinking a lot about how, you know, something we talk about a lot, which is bad guys
don't think about themselves as bad guys. They think they're doing good. I remember, you know, reading in any number of histories of the Civil War, reading about how, for you know, the Southern slavery class ahead of the Civil War, freedom slavery was absolutely in line with their definition of freedom because it meant freeing themselves from ever having to do manual labor, which they saw as like work, not befitting like gentlemen.
And and.
It just has me that that idea and Nemics manifesto just has me thinking about how much these kind of powerful but amorphous ideas like freedom oppression can be aimed and reconstituted and targeted in a million different ways by people who are really being sincere but are also like completely diluted. Yeah, in the true meaning of the word freedom or the nature of oppression. I mean, we're dealing with a lot of that in our world today.
And I think there has been readings from certain different groups of and or that supports their ideas of like what freedom is to do with like January sixth and stuff like that. What I love is the speech is much longer, right, And there's this line that Nemic says where he says, the imperial need for control is so desperate because it is so unnatural. Tyranny requires constant effort, It breaks, it leaks, Authority is brittle, and oppression is
the mask of fear. And I love that because that's when it does that Tony Gilroy thing where there's this vagary to it. But then you do the twist where it's like we are talking about fascists here, and the reason they want to oppress you, and the reason they have to fight so hard to do it, and the reason they need to be militarized and have weapons is because it's so unnatural what they want for other people
to not be free, you know. And I love that idea, and also, you know, talking about kind of the current politics of what translates here. This is also very interesting because one of the most regular talked about kind of points about protests is something that people can't stop is multiple tiny protests all over a city or a country. If you have one big protest, it's easy to stop it. If you have multiple rebellions or tiny gatherings, there are
never enough people to stop it. So it's very interesting once again to see Tony Gilroy bring that contemporary idea of protests and rebellion and put it into the context of Star Wars.
Elsewhere, Deirdre is running her team through the ISB her plan base, her action plan for Marve's funeral. They're going to have Rickx Road covered from every angle, but no snipers because Deirdre wants him taken alive. Okay, they need a living witness, and that's a big deal. Now. I think this is going to be something when we go to season two that Deirdre is going to be called
to the carpet about. I think that I would expect in season two that one Deirdre is going to blame other people for the failure to uh to to grab Cassie and or one and identify the contact. And two she is going to be blamed herself for not having enough lethal force ready to like put this whole thing down.
Which is really funny. She's not doing it because she's some kind person who doesn't want to kill people. She wants control and to understand the greater plans of the rebellion. So she's like, well, we need people who know what's going on, so I can torture them and ask them what's going on. But it's probably going to be played out because we've seen this misogynistic hierarchy within the empire.
It's probably going to be played out as if she's a woman, she couldn't do what needed to be done, she couldn't bring the lethal force to control the rebels.
Certainly, Blevin of the ISB is waiting in the wings for the downfall of yes of Deirdre. We go to Corroussant, go to ISB headquarters. Chlorus, the driver is informing Blevin about this argument that mon and Paren had and they're trying to figure out what does this mean. Then Blevin is called away because the Kreeger raid is happening. The Kreeger operation is happening right now, and the result of that operation is Anton Kreeger and his entire crew of
f men thy men are gone. There there are no survivors, no one to interrogate. Now Deirdre is pretty wound up about this, and she is on the horn with major part of Gas and she's like, you know, someone's got to say that we're never going to unravel this thing if we don't have someone to talk to. Somebody's got to be in the room saying that. Part of is like, Okay,
you don't get it. This is about uh, wiping the taste of Aldanni out of the Emperor's mouth, because if the Emperor is feeling anxious, none of us will be able to do our jobs. So you you want prisoners, You want to be able to have a conversation about the way this operation is being run. Find the contact, find Axis aka Luthen who they don't know who that person is. Elsewhere the isb that is watching Brasso realize they've been fooled. It's Brasso that they're watching hanging out
at Marv's. It's actually a Brasso double he Brasso himself has slipped down into the sewers where he's meeting with Cassian.
Brasso tells Cassian that Marva wanted him to know that none of this is his fault and that she loved him, and very touchingly, she said she told Brasso to tell Cassian that she loved him more than anything he could ever do wrong, which is such a powerful, a powerfully Star Wars sentiment in which, you know, I mean, this is a story in which we actively forgive people who take part in the wiping out of planets and the massacring of children, and so that is just a very
very Star Wars thing to utter. Brasso promises that he will take care of Marva's stone, and boy does he. He doesn't.
He takes care of v and he uses it to take care of business.
Luthen makes content with Vell just out on the street.
Also, yeah, wearing his fifth best. Yeah, he's not like a black heerd. He's looking very villainous.
Let's can we talk about this, Yeah, Tony Gilroy, of course from Rogue one even give us any Jedi in that. But certainly we would assume that Chiroot is.
At least more sensitive.
I wonder, I mean, clearly, the robes make you think Jedi, make you think sith. I wonder if lucent is one sensitive.
And the Kaiber crystal, he definitely has a connection to the force, to the ideas of the Jedi, even if the word are not is not being you know, uttered and I know that our guest Adam here he has some thoughts on that too that are quite like theory focused. So but definitely the robes, they're meant to make you think like, oh, I mean, he's wearing black robes, he's got them over his face. Could just be a manifestation
of the way he sees himself. We know he sees himself as the enemy, as someone who's fallen, who's done these terrible things. But the Kaiber Crystal, you know, the sky Kaiber. I'm thinking.
Maybe he's like a Jeda native.
I do want I wonder about you too. I wonder if there's something some connection to that space or just maybe a friend or a family member who was forced sensitive, who was a Jedi, who knows. I'm very interested because they really play into it in this episode with the way that they dress Luthor, and we know that costuming in Star Wars is really a coincidence. Lots of thought goes into that.
So Luthen tells Velle that oh, this is perfect, that there's so many isb here, and she's like, what the fuck are you talking about? And he's like, listen, we we don't have to hunt Cassi and we let them do it, and then when they find him, we kill him before they can take them away to interrogram. It's very very easy. Now, let's go to the hotel where we can wait them out. Then the bell tower starts
a clanging. It's the funeral. The funeral is starting. The marching band, which has been warming up, now begins to play their funeral dirge. The parade is moving slowly through the streets. There is Brasso holding marve Stone in front of him. B two Emo is rolling along with him, various other notable figures from Ferrexian Society or i'll here.
Imperial officers are getting very very anxious. Any kind of display of of of the people, any kind of mask gathering, is a thing that they're just going to be very very nervous about it.
And they're definitely starting to realize that they're outnumbered, which is the way. There's always more people than that are a practice. There's a reason just whether people are together or not.
There's a reason they're building a death star, and that's because they don't have enough people to put everywhere in the galaxy. Cassian is watching all of this unfold from his hiding space, and he spots Luthen in the crowd. Meanwhile, Nurci makes who believes that he has found where Cassian is hiding, and in fact he has makes contact with his imperial Hando is like, okay, pretend to arrest me. I'll take it, and he gets arrested, and then he's like, listen,
I know where Cassian is. I want double the reward right now, and you get me off the planet immediately, like no waiting, no passco, no next week, next month, I want to go now. Deetra and the is bgoons. They prepare to move in on Cassian's location, but again Deetro's like, alive, alive, alive a lot? How many times I had to say we take him alive? The funeral parade stops Brasso and be moved to the head of
the column in her cell. There's this wonderful moment where Bix is kind of like hearing the funeral music, and she's like slowly kind of like stirring. Of course, she's been like heavily traumatized by the torture she's been she's been submitted to, and all of a sudden, the band changes to like an upbeat marching number and the column begins moving with a real purpose. Death troopers now are closing in on Cassian's hiding place, but he's not there.
He slipped back into the sewers. And now the crowd is chanting Stone and Sky, Stone and Sky, Stone and Sky and then b pops a little hatch on the top of his little head and begins to play a hologram message which Marva recorded some time before she passed, and she talks about how much she loves Feryx, the culture of Farex, what makes it important Feryx's kind of positioning in the Empire is this kind of like place of salvage where they've all just kind of ignored the
Empire for all these years. Like they come and you know, they do their business here, and then they leave and we try to forget about it. And she says that she wishes she had done it differently, that she can't forget it about it anymore, and that she wants the people of Pheryx to not ignore their feelings about the Empire. They need to rise up, they need to resist the Empire. She says, I want Ferris to continue. We've been sleeping, we've had each other, and they left us alone. We
took their money and they ignored us. And then she says, fight the empire, and then all of a sudden, the imperial officers they step in to try and break this up, and Bee gets overturned and when it's people, and when people see be overturned, they fucking lose it.
No, no, no, that's the funniest shit. Yeah, that I want to go down in Song's history. Marva gives this speech and she's really like, she's talking about all the funerals she's seen. This is a place that's paved with funeral stones because so many people have died, and every time it made her a little bit more angry at the Empire. But really, now she needs people to fight. She gives this rousing speech and people are getting jostled, they're Joscelyn.
But it's not until an imperial officer kicks over Bee.
How heck dare you?
Everyone's like, what the fuck? And will I need it to go down in history that this rebellion on Pharik is not because somebody put hands on B two Emo and.
Everyone was like absolutely not, yes, absolutely not, it's how fucking dare you?
Yeah, Brasso, he's the most pissed. He just he runs straight up there. He's got marves for your north Stone and he's beautiful. He just bricks and Imperial office right in the head, so beautiful, and it all kicks off.
Cassian is at the hotel. He finds Bicks. She's in a terrible fucking state. Meanwhile, out in the street, the Imperial shock Troopers, the Riot troopers are beginning to buckle. And it's at that moment when it seems like it's unclear whether the Empire is going to be able to get control this situation or where the Riot is going to break through that Willman hurls whatever it was he was he was building it and indeed is a bomb, and it explodes. Several stormtroopers go down. Their vehicle is
also damaged and there gets overturned. Their box of grenades cooks off, and now more explosions are rocking the street, and the storm troopers just open fire on the crowd. They're being just like gunning everybody down. Brasso drags woman to safety. Zan gets shot down. Rip Zan, who just was a good friend to Cassian, was really holding it down and never you know, had his own things going on.
But at the end of the day, made took necessary risks to remain on the side of justice, and he dies here along with what we can only assume to be probably dozens of people in the explosion of the ensuing gunfight. It's surely dozens and dozens of Fhrexians. We're gunned down here. Meanwhile, Cinta is running around in the streets in isbh and who kind of like figures out that she's up to no good, stops her. She stabs him to death. Cassian fights his way out of the hotel.
He sees that Nurci is probably killed in one of the explosions that happened. Yeah, it's clear.
I have that feeling the classic like he could have, because we see the explosion happen and we see him get knocked down and he's laying down. He looks dead. But I'm like, maybe he's not dead. This hasn't had a great record of killing people other than black characters, so I'm hoping maybe he's gone, like learn his lesson,
and but I think there's something to be said. You know, I was on the La Comic Con podcast and Hector Navarro said this really like thing that I thought was really heartbreaking, but it really got me where I was like, even the people trying to escape, who will do anything to escape? If you side with the Empire, You're still gonna die. That's like the most fucked up thing. So like he tried, he betrayed his friends, and what for
to end up maybe dead on the floor. It's like lots of deaths happening rip to a lot of people.
Not to mention, I mean this is jumping ahead, but you have to assume that once the Empire gets control of this situation, and by control that probably means hundreds, if not thousands, gunned down, yeah, dead, hundreds if not thousands, put in prison and interrogated. And then, as super producer Saul is saying in the chat, martial law and an occupation of significant size, you then wonder, like, what is the state of Feryx when we come back in season two?
It is probably because even if it exists, right, if they didn't use it as a test case for the for the Death Star, which is not operational yet, does in what state is it? If it even exists? That I'm sure will be heartbreaking As all this riot is popping off, Deirdre gets clabbered by a rock. It's wonderful. She goes down.
It looks like she's about to get torn apot by the people of fer I really thought she was coming to an end and oust feel very good about it.
I was feeling great about it until she is rescued by our terrible friend Cyril Karn, who historide out here. Uh and yeah, you know, I've seen people like frame their quote unquote relationship as like Cyril is quote in love with Deirdre.
He's not.
He's a star love.
Yeah, he's a star. This is a toxic relationship. He is in He is just enamored with anyone who is wielding power. He wants to feel power, power, and he wants to be close to that. It's not necessarily about Deirdre personally, it's about what she represents and he is not a well man.
It's very it's going to be very interesting, slash scary to see where that goes in season two, because he pulls her aside, he saves her, and she's like, oh, I guess I should say thank you, and she's sort of still scared. But they're all close, pressed up together, and this is going to be someone that she's gonna have to trust I mean, how are they going to get off Pheris? Is this going to be the kind of situation where we start the second season straight afterwards?
Is there going to be a time jump if we have to see them escape? There is a potential that she's going to have to rely on Cyril. But we know that Cyril is a horrible person and he's a very toxic person from a very toxic household. He does not respect women. I imagine that whatever that relationship becomes in the future, it's not going to end well for Deirdre because that's a man who he wants to be close to power because he wants it, not because he respects.
How to mention you wonder again we're jumping ahead a little bit to the conversation, but I do wonder if Deirdre does undergo some sort of downfall because of her failure and this whole fair.
Expert, would Cyril sell her out?
Would Cyril once sell her out? Or do they team up to continue the investigation either on their own, or does she or does she go to the ISBN say Hey, this super super toxic weirdo really really helped me out and he's really driven and maybe give him an ISB application and I'll vouch for him.
So Chris just super producer. Chris just put in the chat that Tony Rris is going to be like a year time jump. So I actually, of all the options that you just laid out there, I think it's very likely that in a year we either see them in two places, Cyril very high up in the ISB at Didra's side, or post that downfall, and they're both kind of in this folly you do insane quest to take down the rebels in a very violent, toxic way. So
either way, it's going to be interesting. I was rooting for Deirdre to die, but I've never heard of her in the later you know, I'll always be very happy where I'm like in the future. I'm like, look, I know the canon of Star Wars and guess who I never heard of Ddra, So that just means I can hope she dies.
She'll be dead, and you know she was certainly we don't see her, you know, running around at the side of Horse and Crenicks exactly.
Like you know what I'm saying. I'm like fingers crossed.
Okay, Luthan is watching the Riots from afar while Vell and Sinta are packing up the safe house. They're preparing to get off the planet as quickly as they can. Cassian spirits Bicks to a ship which is going to carry her, Brasso Be to Emo, Willman, and some others to safety. Cassian says his goodbyes, give some advice to the pilot, says, listen, as soon as you get over the sea, you don't have your tracker on, you fucking hit the afterburners. You're out of here. B is like what, Cassian,
I didn't get to to see you. And You're like, oh, this is fucking heartbreaking. And then Cassian says, I know, but I need you to hold things down here while I go take care of business and be like, but you always say that, And then Cassian is like, yeah, but you always come through for me, don't you know you,
little bee? And it's wonderful. And I hope that B is safe forever, even though we never hear much like Deirdre, we have never heard of him before, and I hope that he has saved somewhere me too.
And there's a really interesting moment where Cassian's like, I promise I will come and find you and it's unclear whether b doesn't really believe him understandably, but it's unclear whether Bix is Lucid or not, because she then says Cassian will come, Cassian will find us, but she says it to Cassian as if she doesn't recognize him. So it's a really interesting kind of heartbreaking moment, especially because of what we see him doing in the final scene of the show.
I gotta say, also, some real boor Gullet parallels with what happened to Bix, And you know what Borgullet is able to do and does in fact in Rogue One.
Could what the babies are, Could they potentially be related to Borgollet, like you.
Wonder if that is the last, the last of its kind, you know. Then we go to Coruscant where Mon and Paren are presenting their daughter Leda to the gangster Davos Skolden, and his son is some sort of chandrillin match. This is some sort of.
Pressing scenes in the show. This is a finale full of depressing, sad moments, and yet this moment.
Seems you talk about sing Mon's.
Face and it's so horrified with what she is doing. It is so gross.
You want to talk about ruthless like we were talking about Luthen as ruthless, right, He's going here to kill someone who has been very useful and beneficial to him and his mission, and will clearly sacrifice anyone in order to keep the rebellion going, keep it safe, keep his network from being being revealed. Man Mon. As scared as
she is, she's also tremendously ruthless and courageous. Just I mean, first of all, setting up her husband to take some kind of fall grim, offering up her daughter, who is you know, a little missed fascist Coruscant twenty twenty two, offering her up to a gangster in order to keep the rebellion you know, in money. She is an unbelievable hero of the rebel alliance and the things to do aret In.
She's much more similar to Luthan than she would have in her own way, in her own scary like ex extremely ruling class way, and the way that she just sells it is so heartbreaking to see. She just knows that she's doing something terrible that she does not agree with.
I would argue too, that she's even though you see her fear in a much more present way than you see Luthen's I think she's she is. I mean know, Luthen calls himself a coward at various points, but I think that her courage is so it's it's jaw dropping because she is just completely exposed. She is surround like her family would turn her in if they need.
Yeah, her family loves so much privilege and money and security and status from it. They just love it.
Luthen could get in his spy shuttle with you know, his faked transponder codes and his various counter you know, like countermeasures against imperial encroachment, and you know, jet off to we would assume some safe house somewhere in the galaxy mon if it all goes badly, if it all went sideways, which we know it won't from because you know we've seen again we've seen well as we've seen Roman Lucy way. But if it went sideways, can she would she be able to get off course? On It's
really unclear, Like she is just completely exposed. So like, uh, kudos to man Mathma, a true hero of the rebellion. Elsewhere, Cassian has broken onto into Luthen's ship and he and Luthen arrives and Cassian confronts him, and Cassian gets Luthen to admit, yes, I came to Pherrix to kill you. You made it really hard to kill you. And Cassian's like, well, I'm going to make it easy. There's a blaster right there on the table, right next to you. And Lutherans like,
what the what is this? What is this? And Cassian's like essentially says, I want to fight the Empire. If you don't think you can trust me to fight the Empire, then kill me right here. Yeah, kill me or take me on or else take me on and let's fight together. And Luthen smiles and realizes, Okay, this guy, Cassian, I
can trust and let's go fight. And then we get the Stinger scene in which we discovered that the prisoners of an Arcina five were assembling not just the death Star, but crucially the super laser for the death Star, which is you know, Galen Erso's uh project and masterpiece and Ultimate Revenge. Also that his life's work is that.
Very ironic prison is building the thing that will eventually lead the rebels to be able to get freedom for the galaxy. And also we were right, we.
Did we were right, We were right, We were a couple of things that have been on my mind ever since watching you know, finishing the series number one, I thought we were going back to Canari and we're going to find out what happened to and Or's sister. I guess that's probably on the on the table for season two. Did you were you expecting that?
Were you thinking, Oh, Kerry, you know, I really wanted to, because as I've said, like we've spoken about this before, I do think that is one of the places that the show did not deliver the kind of nuanced, interesting context and conversation and representation that I think it did so well in things like Narcina five or even just like as the finale went on and we got to
see this textured, working class planet of Pherics. But I think this is my hope, right, My hope is that season two will focus on and Or finding his sister, as in that will probably happen quite early, and I would love to see his sister challenge what Marva did and challenge his assimilation outside of Canari and kind of the way that and make him just realize that there was a set there was a part of that behavior that even if it had good intentions, was actually quite
dangerous and and and and had a bad effect on him. I think that really interesting way to bring that real life analogy that we spoke of of indigenous children being kidnapped and adopted, and giving it that same context as a show that gave us a prison industrial complex slavery storyline. You know. So I was surprised that there wasn't even
a tease of his sister. But maybe that, I hope is because in season two they're gonna do something that's just as complex and thoughtful as what we've seen in this season.
Yeah, I was I'd be interested to know what happened there, and certainly I feel like I know the way that it hits me the Marvel storyline, which is that, you know, I think Marva and Clem thought they were doing something really good. Definitely there right, they thought they were doing
something really positive. But also, you know, it's that thing we talk about with perspective, where everybody thinks they're no matter what they're doing, thinks that they're doing the right thing, or at least is trying to act out in a way that comports with their ideals about you know, justice and right and wrong. But it's also clearly they kidnapped a kid.
Yeah, and you know, like flat out like you don't.
Know where his parents are, you don't know where his family sister is, you don't know what the bonds that he has with those people are. We don't know anything about the culture of those people.
Like part of I think part of this is like there was a really intense and in depth, long conversation in our discord about this that lots of members took part in, and I think something that really came up. There was also something we saw in the early episodes. There's a reason that we don't know any of that stuff, and that's because from when he was a child, Marva says she told him not to think about Canari, not to tell people he was from Canari, not to even
remember Canari, don't talk about your sister. That in itself reflects the way that Indigenous children in the past have been violated by being forced to pretend that they are not Indigenous to fit better into these like you know, inverted commons schools and orphanages and stuff. I think that that is a very interesting parallel that again I would like to see explored because it's to do with intention and impact. I believe Martha thought she was doing the
right thing. Yeah, but Cassie and lost that deep connection and it was It feels to me that the fact that the sister was a driving force early on in the season, but we haven't heard about her again really as the season went on. I don't think that's because he's replacing his sister with his found family. I'm hoping it's because that will be a bigger arc in season two.
I mean, there were clues, there were hints at it over the final two episodes where I thought, oh, we're going to we're going to go back there and we're going to find something out, but that never happened. Again. I do expect that we're going to tie up that loop certainly in season two, if not in some other
story form. Okay, Sagerera, you hear a lot about, you know, in Clone Wars, elsewhere about it in Rogue One, certainly about Sagerera's extremism, how the things that he does actually hurt the rebellion because it drives a wedge between the various factions who get who are kind of like reaching across these various ideological lines in order to form the
rebel Alliance. He's just so out there, and I guess the implication is violent that that people don't there are is a significant faction of the rebel Alliance that doesn't want him associated with the cause. At the same time, I'm really struggling. I wonder if we're going to find out what that is in season two, because I gotta say,
I'm Saw feels very tame right now. Like I'm not saying that he is not a killer, but so is Luthan, but so is Cassian, but so is Vel, but so is Syntha, but so is everybody that we've seen thus far, and Saw it does not seem meaningfully out of step with what anybody else is doing. And the only thing that I see right now that is different, of course, is you know, again, there's a lot to be revealed. We would assume the only thing that really sets part A Saw apart right now is the fact that he
was first. He was he before anybody was trying to organize to resist the Empire. He was doing it and saying that we should do it.
I wonder, So there's two routs. I think they can go one. I think in a way, it's just quite one of those funny narrative conundrums, because Tony Gilory in this show at multiple points is like, just hit an imperial cop with a brick. Yeah, just break out of prison. Like he's putting for regards on the way, Yeah, yeah, exactly.
He's putting forward ideas that are radical, and a lot of what we've seen in Star Wars before has been that kind of that exavy of versus Meo style conundrum of like the rebellion of mon Mothra, the rebellion Mafra mon Mothma, the rebellion I got. I'm like, I know George loves Godzilla.
It's probably not a coincidence, but you know, the rebellion of of of being peaceful and money and being in the Senate, we now know that that's actually fake.
There are not two versions of the rebellion. There's the violence of the rebellion that has to happen to allow mon Mothma to do the things that she wants to do. What I would be interested in seeing will saw Guerrera get the blame for Al Darni, is that what makes mon So so scared of him and his techniques Because she's scared of Al Darni and she would love to not be connected to it, even though it's what she
is funding. I wonder if there's something around that where Sore ends up actually getting blamed for the one thing he didn't do, because the truth is he is the one who told Lutheran don't go and kill Yeah Kriegez people actually don't allow them, I mean, don't allow them to die to keep the secret that's wrong. There's thirty men that he does not believe in willful debts and murdering people. He believes in doing what has to be done. And now we're seeing him that is very much in
line with what Cassian feels or the show feels. So it will be interesting to see if they expand on what Saw allegedly did or if Saw ends up getting the blame for something that the rebellion don't want to take.
So also feels like, you know, he reminds me of a of a dynamic that happens in the real world, which is a group of people you know, you know, from a disenfranchised community or front with you know, real roots and a lived experience that is maybe outside of the mainstream, will say, hey, this thing is actually this is like violent against our community. This is this is this is the first step in like you know, uh we see where this is actual violence being taken against Like,
this is where this is going. And oftentimes in the real world, when those figures will speak up, people say, oh, that's fringe, you're being alarmist, YadA, YadA, YadA. I see that as kind of happening with Saw. Who is again who is early on was like the Empire, we gotta fight the empire. This is Look how crazy this is? Look how look how evil they're being and people being like, no being there being alarmist, You're being a little crazy
about this. And I think it's very interesting that Saw is branded an extremist by the quote unquote mainstream of what will be the Rebel Alliance at a certain point when within a few months of the raid on Scariff, that mainstream of the rebel Alliance will absolutely green light an operation that kills like what two million people on
the Death Star. You know, Like, it's just interesting how somehow Saw is an extremist but blowing up the Death Star, which, let me just go on record, that was the right thing to do, the.
Right but there is ethical but conversation.
But well, like, however many people Saw killed, can it possibly match up to how many people died in the in the Battle of Yavon. So it's just very interesting that at a certain point the mainstream of the rebel alliance has come to a place where they're doing things that are that if they would have been told half a year previously what would occur at the Battle of Yavin and elsewhere, they'd be like, that's crazy. We're not
going to do that. We're not going to kill three million people like in a strike, We're not going to like that. They will find themselves in a place where that will just make sense. And I and I hope that we get to see whatever it is that Saw does to either get that kind of like label as an extremist, or we get to see, you know, a moment where he gets to say, well, I was I was right?
Was I not right?
I wonder if, like in the realistic political allegories that this show's building in, I wonder if the label of extremist is just something they say about him because they don't want people to respect him or realize he did it first, you know, they they oh, you're an extremist was an extremist. We can't listen to him, but this was the man who laid the groundwork for what you were doing. You just don't want to give him credit.
I will say. You know, like like a lot of us on this Zoom, I watched Rogue one as soon as I was done with and Or, and I think that a lot of Saw's paranoia in that movie suddenly just make it just makes a lot more sense. The fact that you know the Kreeger reveal Luthen's Kreeger revealed to him, and how his shock at realizing how willing Luthen would be to like burn an entired network to
keep everything safe. It's easy to see how that experience, not to mention whatever physical trauma he had undergone in the intervening years, would result in the paranoia that we see on Jetto where he's like, this is a setup, isn't it the pilot You're trying to bait me into going somewhere, and it's you can almost watching it. I can almost see the wheels turning like this is like Anton Kreeger. They're trying to set me up like Kreeger. It suddenly all of a sudden really made sense.
That I will say I think is one of the absolute master strokes Tony Gilroy did with this show. He went, he made Raguan and then he basically retroactively created a prequel with and Or. Look, this sounds like what everyone should do with the prequel, but it's not. It is like a puzzle box where he takes tiny moments that almost seem row away from and Or and expands on them in a huge, huge sense. I mean having you know, the droids that arrest and Or on the space Miami,
little things like that. You know Adam will talk about it later, but like he has a prison inside him and he carries it with him everywhere he goes. We now know what that means for Cassian saw Why would he think it was a setup that's so specific, because that is what Lutheran did with Krieger. Like, it's so satisfying to feel the pieces click together. And if you haven't gone back and watched Rogan after finishing and Or, do it, because I guarantee you are going to feel
incredibly satisfied and very smartly. There is still a lot of space left for Cassian to move in season two to get to the person he is in Rogue one. He is not that person now because of what happened in season one, But we understand the person he is in Rogue one a little bit better because of this season.
Absolutely one last Saw thing, which is, you know, clearly, when we see Saw in rogue one, he is he's sucking on some sort of like oxygen tank that he needs because his lungs have been damaged. He's missing limbs. He also doesn't seem to recognize Cassian, where certainly now it could be in his state, his absolutely paranoid state that he just doesn't remember that he knows this guy or had met this guy, or been in the same room as this guy. You know Luthan. I remember Luthen
saying that thing about Kreeger. He doesn't know me. Yes, we've been in the same room, but he didn't know who I was. It could have been a situation like that yere where Saw has been around Cassian but didn't know who, didn't recall exactly who he was. But I wonder how they're going to play that in season two. One, I would expect we're going to get more And two, why is it that obviously Saw as a famous figure
and certainly in rebellion circles. But why is it that Saw didn't seem to know who Cassian was?
Okay, so I think this could tie into the journey of Cassian over the next season. I wonder it's very sad, it's very bleak, but I think it's probably quite likely. I wonder if the way that Luthan sees Cassian as being useful after that interaction. I wonder if Luthan is the one who trains Cassian to become that cold blooded
killer oh takes. And I wonder if the reason that Soar and Cassian don't necessarily cross paths in any kind of definitive way is because Cassian's life is as a killer, as an assassin, as the person who will take out those who needs to be taken out, which means that he is essentially a specter. You know, he's not really a presence in the rebellion because his role is to take out the people who and I would assume that
would be very easy to get Cassian to do. If you say, well, here are the people who destroyed Canari, here are the people who did this thing that personally hurt you. Here's an empire person who did something terrible. Here's something and then then that's how you get to the person in that first scene of roguean who can just shoot the informer.
I let's talk about Luthen for a second, because he gives that little smile when when you know, when Cassian gives him the choice either shoot me down or take me on. And but I I, you know, other pods that I listened to have kind of you know, maybe have have kind of placed Luthen in that same kind of you know, framework of somebody who comes to the light of like, oh, I've seen the error of my ways. I shouldn't have tried to kill Cassian. Maybe I'll do
the rebellion differently. I didn't get that sension at all, the sense, especially considering what you mentioned that at the beginning of Roguan, Cassian is every bit what Luthen is now and will without any unction.
He'll do it to the people to do it for him.
He will, He has no compunction to just like cutting off, you know, the head of you know, a loose thread, if that protects the network. I think I don't sense any kind of hesitation or or sorrow in Luthen. In fact, I think at the end of this Luthan is going to continue to be as ruthless as he has been. Like that is my sense from from this. Did you feel anything going to change his ways?
I totally agree. I think you're on exactly the right part. I didn't see it that way at all. I saw his smile as he is incredibly satisfied because here is a person, this guy just like him, Yeah, will die. He's going to die or he's going to be in the rebellion. And actually what that really means is he's going to die being in the rebellion like Luthan. And obviously we see that Luthan's speech that becomes true for Cassian dying for the sunset you'll never get to see
or the sunrise you'll never get to see. That is foreshadowing of Cassian and Jin dying on Scariff. And I think that what he's smiling about is to Luthan because of how ruthless he's become. All of this whole season was almost like a test. He didn't know he was testing Cassian, he was going to kill him. But then he comes is, Oh, here's somebody who will who is so desperate to be a part of this who so believes this is the right thing to do that he will give me a blaster and tell me to kill
him or make him a part of it. I think Lutheran is just very happy to have someone else who's kind of as unhinged and committed to this as he is. And I think that Lutheran is a user as much as he's doing things for a greater good. And I think we will see that ruthlessness and exploitation translated to Cassian. I do believe my gut says Luthen probably will like in season two. This is not too Galaxy brain, but a little bit further along kind of theory. I think
he will probably die saving Cassian. I think that will be his one moment of redemption. He sees that Cassian can continue this on and he sort of does something to stop Cassian dying. I think that is the only redemptive moment he may have. But I think that it is no coincidence that Cassian's ruthlessness at the beginning of Roguan is a direct reflection of Luthen's and I think that relationship over the next season is only going to get more terrible.
I have a galaxy brain, I have a galaxy. I think Luthen saves Cassian somehow at that and to your point, that is the kind of Luthen redemption moment. But Cassian is forced to kill Luthan, either to let him walk into an imperial trap, let him go down, or.
I think that sounds very realistic, has.
To kill him in order to keep him from falling into the Empire's hands. And I think it's gonna be a very tough decision, but I think that is how we get to the Cassian end. Or we see in rope who I think a guy in the he'll shoot a guy in the back, He'll kill Galen or So, even though the orders are we snatch Galen or So when somebody put you know it, takes him aside and goes, hey, listen, we're not actually going to rescue Galen or So. You fucking kill that guy this second you lay eyes on him.
Who will happily kill Galen or So in the presence of his daughter, even though he's.
Not connected with his human level, as.
Long as that allows the rebellion to survive. I think that's my galaxy green tea.
I think that's a really great call. I think Saul pointed this out. I totally agree. Lutheran would want it that way. He'd want it.
That way, he would he would agree with it.
Yeah, he would want it. He's probably given him the old kill me wink, you know, yeah, old like you can do it. But also, okay, so this is let's galaxy bring it up a little bit further. I wonder if there's some kind I wonder if the Sister arc and the Lutheran arc crossover in the way that the Empire or somebody gets hands on Cassian's sister and he has to betray and inverted Commas Luthan, but there's some
kind of agreement that's made. I wonder if those two sides of his life will be pitted against each other. I really hope the Sister arc does come into it next season and we're not just like she's just fridged, like oh sorry, she's there, like sorry to you. There's been too.
Many there's been too many mentions of her for that to happen. Vell and sinto what do you think we see from the Aldanni crew going forward? And are they going to be active participants in this nascent version of the Rebel alliance.
Sinta, Yes, I think she's going to become a big character. I have a big feeling that she's gonna be on alongside Cassian on that journey, maybe someone who he sees doing the things that he believes he has to do. I think Vell could be a very interesting character. To see mom oh my God through through Vell's eyes, and to see that the two sides of the rebellion, Lutheran's
rebellion and mom Mofma's rebellion. I think Sinta and Vell could become kind of reflections of those two versions, because Vell's definitely getting tired of the brutal real of the rebellion. So I hope that we see both of them going forwards in season two.
An amazing show, an incredible achievement. I understand why they're only doing one more season. Certainly when we talked to talk to Tony and he was like, well, a certain point, I was just like, what the fuck am I doing?
This is why I do this, disting my life.
So I'm very you know, like, I'm very grateful that he decided to do that again, to go through that process again. And I can't wait to see man. I can't wait to see how this leads us into Rogue one, the Battle of Yavin, and and on and on. Where do you put and or in your Star Wars pantheon?
Who I am? I mean surprising no one. My favorite Star Wars is my favorite main canon Star Wars is returning the Jedi, because really, my favorite Star Wars is like Batfandle like he Walks. I love those e Woks movies, and I love I love that stuff. That's my closest to my heart. So I'm a Jedi first person. It's really hard because it's the comparison of subjective nostalgia and
love for these things and objective goodness. I would say, in objective goodness, this is as good as the best Star Wars, so it would be after that, I would say, in mind, it's probably around currently it would be like Jedi Rebels, Clone Wars and or.
New Hope.
But then again, you know, I love the Last Jedi, so sometimes that's my number one. So it's hard for me, but it's up there. I'll say it's up there. I can't say definitively a number based because there's too many Star Wars movies. I'll never forget seeing the Force awakens in a cinema at midnight with like a bunch of other people. That was like one of the best cinematic experiences of my life. I think The Last Jedi is
a masterpiece, but this is up there. I think this is a subjectively include some of the best Star Wars storytelling of all time. The Knocking of Five stuff for me is that's some of my best form or storytelling. Ever.
One thing I forgot to talk about, and we talk about a little bit with Adam, is there are other prisons, like for other other alien races. Right, Like they kept all the they were like, what's your homeworld? They kept all the humans with the humans. I would assume if they have wookies, they keep all the wookies with the wookies like we would. We should assume that, right that they're different the Empire across.
Alien and humans. They know that's very dangerous. So I think as well season two prediction something that we I know we both want to see in season two more alien representation, different kinds of aliens, understanding why human supremacy is such a big part of the Empire, but also understanding, as we kind of talk about with Adam, that that is also probably a budget can strain, and we are very happy with what came out of that budget constraint
because this show looks amazing and they committed to telling like a really incredible story.
Okay, I have and Or. I think it would be tied for two. I have Rogue one and and Or to me, like, yes, you need both, right, So it's either so I have again sometimes, as I've said here, yeah is favorite, sometimes my favorite. But I'm gonna put Empire first. Okay, so Empire, Rogue one, Slash and or one A one B Rebels, a New Hope, and then probably Jedi.
Yeah.
I love Return of the Jedi.
I love It's hard because, like now there's so much Star Wars that it stops being an easy question because, like I would also say that the Last Jedi, even though it has like some really big flaws, I love a lot of the stuff that they did there.
Like I wish that Finn had been more obviously a Jedi. I always believed him and Poe were both for sensitive, and we kind of get that in the third movie little bit. But I love this stuff with him and Rose. I think that that throne room fight is one of the coolest things that's ever been put to screen.
It's the best lightsaber fight ever period.
The idea of the democracy of the force and everybody can use it and it's not just some weird bloodline elitism. So that one for a long time after seeing it, that was my favorite. But there's so much that it's just hard. But this is up there definitely, and I think I feel very lucky to live in a time where you can be like, oh, there's great Star Wars TV shows, and they're not just great for a Star Wars TV show, like Rebels and and or those are
just great TV shows. Whether or not, I would say anyone who doesn't think they're into Star Wars should watch this show. I think it could just find such a huge audience, and I hope that people give it a try, even though I'm sure everyone who listens his podcasts probably loves Star Wars.
Well. We've got more and or up next. In our conversation with Atlantic writer Adam Serwer, Crooked and do a Lingo just release a brand new limited series podcast together, hosted by audio journalist Ahmad Ali Akbar, Radio Lingo investigates all the ways that language shapes our world and how the world shapes our language. Each episode explores a different way language plays a role in our life, from swearing to subtitles and everything in between. Listen today and subscribe
to Radio Lingo wherever you get your podcast. New episodes drop every Tuesday. The Cricket Store has launched a brand new line of merch inspired by your favorite shows, just in time for the holidays. New items include sweatshirts inspired by Love It or Leave It and Hysteria, a bake appreciator Apron, and a magnetic poetry kid that lets you
make your own terrible notes app Apology. This holiday season, every order from the Cricket Store will support Votes Save America's Every Last Vote Fund to make sure every voice can be heard in the phase of unprecedented voter suppression. Find the perfect gift for the cricket fan in your life and pick up something yourself while you're at it. Head to cricket dot com slash store and shop now.
X ray Vision is brought to you. But Hi Greens, our next partner has a product I use literally at different times during the week, but on a regular breage. I started taking ag one because vitamins, folks, you need them. Then, and guess what, Sometimes as you grow older, you can't keep eating like little vitamins in the shape of dinosaurs or various flintstones, or in like little gummy shapes, because that's not adult. I guess that's where AG one steps in.
So what is ag one? Ag one? With one delicious ag one scoop you're absorbing get this seventy five high quality vitamins, minerals, whole food sourced superfoods, probiotics and adaptogens to help you start your day right. This special blend of ingredients supports your gut health good, your nervous system okay, I'm listening. Your immune system. I love that. Your energy okay, important, recovery good, focus, great, and aging. That's basically all the things. How do I do it? I just I take a
scoop of AG one. I put it in some almond milk or some oat milk, maybe a little bit of ice, maybe a little bit of peanut butter if I want to put it in the blender because I love peanut butter. I mix it all up and I drink it down. It's very very easy. Here is some facts about AG one to let you know what an incredible miracle product. This is maybe you have a particular diet, don't. You don't eat eggs, or you only eat fish, or you
are paleo or your keto or you're vegan. Guess what it's life style friendly, whether you eat keto, paleo, vegan, whatever, dairy free, gluten free, all the freeze ag one works. And maybe you're thinking, you know what, I've been cutting back on sugar because processed sugar it's not great from you. Contains less than a gram of sugar, no GMOs, no nasty chemicals or artificial anything, and it tastes great. Right now, it's time to reclaim your health and arm your immune
system with convenient daily nutrition. Just one scoop of a cup of water every day. That's it. No need for a million different pills and supplements to look out for your health. To make it easy, Athletic Greens is going to give you a free one year supply of immune supporting vitamin d end five free travel packs with your first purchase. All you have to do is visit Athletic greenstot com slash x ray again, that's Athletic greenstot com slash x ray to take ownership over your health and
pick up the ultimate daily nutritional insurance. X ray Vision is brought to you by Smile Actives. Are you self conscious about your smile due to stains? Are your cheeth haging you? Popular food and drinks are known to stain teeth. Beverage is like and it saddens me to report this to you. Coffee and wine stain in them over time. So what can you do to brighten your smile? Well, maybe you should give Smile Actives a try. Smile Actives is safe, which I don't know about you, but I
care about effective, Okay. I also care about that and easy to use good because I'm a lazy person, and it will keep you smiling proudly. Ninety seven percent of Smile Actives users and a clinical trial reported up to six shades six shades wider on average, all within thirty days. Man,
we had some brown tooth people in this clinical survey. Folks, have you ever wished that you had a whier and brighter smile like the ninety seven percent of Smile Actives users who reported six shades of improvement on their teeth in a clinical trial. Well before you visit a dentist, which you should do. I'm going to stop here. I'm going to kind of veer off of the script. You should do that, and I hope that it's affordable for you to do that, and I hope you have access
to a dentist, because I think that's important. As much as we all fear the dentist, it's important you should know that a dentist. Whitening treatments can be very expensive. And it's not just the price, it's also that you got to sit there and and you gotta listen to this dumb banter from your dentist, and they're grinding on your teeth with the drill, and they got that little hook out and they're digging in your gums, and it's uncomfortable,
to say the least. And you have to book the appointment, which that takes time, and they have to sit in and the whole thing, it's a whole rigamarole. Fortunately, now you can try smile actives at home or anywhere where brushing your teeth is fine to do. Smile Actives offers a safe and affordable turnative to those expensive whitening procedures. Simply adds smile actives pro whitening gel to your regular
cheeth paste. Then brush as normal. That's it. You have to brush your cheek or like brush your armpit, you just brush your teeth after that. It's been formulated. Smile Actives has with Polyclean technology folks to boost stain and removal and deliver active whitening ingredients to the teeth grooves. But what about the crannies, you say, also the crannies that Polyclean's getting in there, and the grooves and the crannies and little valleys, and it's whitening up your teeth.
Smile Actives makes a teeth whitening gel that can simply be added to your toothpraise. I just said that, but I'm saying it again. No change in your routine, no extra time. Yet people will start commenting on your whitter, brighter smile in just days, which is a little weird, right, that's weird to be like, God, your teeth used to look messed up and now they look great. That's kind of rude, But I guess it's a positive thing if
they're saying how great you look now. Smile Actives is the whitening boost your favorite toothpaste needs to give you the smile that you deserve. Visit smile actives dot com slash x ray today to receive our special buy one, get one free off or plus free shipping and handling.
That's smile actives dot com slash x ray. Welcome to the High Mind, where we explore a topic in more detail with the help of expert guests, and this week we are thrilled to have Atlantic staff writer Adam Surwar join us to go even deeper into the politics of and Or and talk about his Star Wars origin story and more. Adam Serwer is a staff writer at The Atlantic, and he recently wrote a piece titled Star Wars Gets
Political but not in the way you think. Adam covers a variety of topics, mostly on the political scene, justice, society, race, etc. And we're delighted to have him here on x ray Vision to talk about and Or. Adam, Thank you for joining us.
Thank you so much for having me.
So I think we're both really interested to get your take, and also you know, we're fascinated by your piece as someone who is not really like into the granular conversations around Star Wars on a kind of a week to week project project level, to see like your what your reaction to and or was you know, just.
Okay, So how do you feel I need to clarify this? So I'm not involved in those conversations, but I am involved in the sense that I'm a hopeless Star Wars that I love.
To hear it.
I think there was like a couple of years after the prequels where I kind of detached and just like wasn't interested, and then the Clone Wars cartoon brought me back in nice and you know, even even Rise of Skywalker, which is the worst thing that has ever happened to the franchise. It's worse than Find in Menace. It's worse, and I mean it is just the complete silence of anything to deal with that era of Star Wars. This
sort of speaks for yourself. Even that did not stop me this time, because there's there's so much other stuff that's good that they're doing and I think, you know, so I'm not. I don't write about it very much. I don't, you know, I'm not, you know, I don't. I don't get like super involved in like the production details and stuff like. It's not it's not professionally it's so except for every once in a while, It's not that I'm professionally absorbed them, but I do love this stuff.
I will watch this about any Star Wars content you give me. I don't know why, I just I just really enjoyed. I think part of it is just that it is just it's flexibility, I mean, and I think that's one of the things about and Or is that the universe can contain so many different interpretations, you know.
I think one of the things that people liked about an earlier stage of the MCU, which is that it was very clear that in the Marvel Universe, you could do something that was a completely different genre from something else and it would still like fit. And I think Star Wars is really like that, right, I mean, like, even if you look at Solo, which is one of the less celebrated installments, it's a heist movie, yeah, and
it feels like a heist movie. And and that kind of genre flexibility, I think is you know, a meanable to many different kinds of artists interpretations of which and Or is probably the best example of something. So we've seen a Star Wars creaer do something completely different from everything that's come before while still feeling, at least to me, very much like Star Wars.
Yeah, okay, so before we begin to andle then, as a fan, I'd love to know, like, what's your origin with Star Wars? Where was the place that you first fell in love with it? And what's kind of kept you hooked throughout?
I mean I was just I was just a little kid who you know, saw the movie when I was like five years old or something like that, and like, you know, I love the whole series. And then you know, at some point you're like eight or something like that, and somebody's dad who has like you know, who's like a cool dad or something and likes to talk to about you know, X wing fighters and stuff with his kids, his kid's friends, he says something like, oh, did you
ever notice that Star Wars one is episode four? And this observation just blows your mind and you're just like, wait, wait, a whole other story that we don't even know about, and and and and and nobody's seen it yet and what happened and like you know, and and and this just sort of this is the moment where you're like, oh, this universe is so huge that your imagination just runs away with it, right, And like maybe you start reading novels or comic books or something like that, and it's
just it's just, you know, I think that was definitely the moment for me where I where I sort of you know, didn't just like it, but sort of fell into the pit.
So what do you think it is about?
And or?
And or?
I think, as you noted in your piece and as many people are talking about, is really kind of the first project along with Rogan, to put some real meat on the kind of skeleton skeletal idea of rebellion that's kind of alluded to and talked about but not really uh explored in any kind of like de tailed way. What is it that uh makes this story feel like Star Wars while also being seemingly like the most radical take on what a rebellion in this world would mean.
So I think, you know, obviously Star Wars no stranger to political allegory, and when I wrote that piece, uh, you know, my intention is not to say that this is the first time Star Wars has engaged in political allegory, because that's obviously not Tree Lucas is you know, sort of famously. But you know, I did this story where you can the rebels are both America and the vietcom and the Empire is both America and the Soviet Union,
you know what I mean. And the Nazi like, the rebellion is every uh, you know, righteous insurgency that has ever existed, and the Empire is every evil regime that has ever existed. And that that that's sort of you know, that's always been there. But what's interesting about and Or and also about Rogue one, although I think it a very different way, is that they have an internal politics
that makes sense. I mean, I think this is something that you know, the difference between Rogue one and and Or, Uh, to me is that Rogue one, the rebellion is very much religious. And and when you look at you know, they talk a lot about the force. You know, obviously you have cheer praying. You know, the the rebels on
the beach are saying for Jetta, uh. You know, when when they're attacking Scaiff, there's this talk about I mean, the huge backlash is that they destroyed a holy city and the empire is still violently secular in and Or, but the rebellion is not yet at least from what we see, is not like a religious institution. But that said there's something similar there, and that we have a sense that there are ideological divisions in Rogue One. It's simple. You know, they say Saw as an extremists, but but
and Or really gives us. You know, you have Mom Mathma, who's sort of more establishment figure who's secretly, you know, funding an insurgency, but it's also sort of horrified by the the actual violence that an insurgency requires. You have Saw, who you know, gives us the sort of layer of the land as far as like I'm not going to work with somebody who tried to overthrow the Republic with the droid army, Like I'm just not going to do that.
And you know, you have Luthan, who I think whose ideological origins have been painted at in a way that I think the show very clearly wants you to think one thing, although he may not end up being that thing. I mean, I think the show is very clear that it wants you to think that Luthen is some kind of fallen Jedi. I mean, he shows up. I mean hopefully you know this is not spoilers, fear listeners, but yeah,
he shows up like Sis brothers. He's like he's he's dressed like, you know, he's dressed like the fake me out, sit outfit Skywalker is wearing in Return of the Jedi. So he's like, he's he's you know, the show wants us to think this. He has that sort of Chekhov's walking stick that looks like alf you know what I mean. I mean, I mean, the show wants us to think that he's a jet I don't know that he is. I don't know if that'll turn out to be the thing.
I don't know what his particular ideological origin is. But the important thing is that there is there are ideological divisions. There's this, you know, manifesto that one of the characters rights and or that and Or himself is uninterested in because he's uninterested in politics in the same way that in Rogue one, she's like, you know, I don't have the luxury of political opinions, and she's kind of lying,
you know what I mean. She she she based on her origin, she does have political opinions, but she has decided to reject them in favor of, you know, just scraping out of a day to day existence, which is what a lot of the people in and Or are doing.
And we don't see. And a big part of what people like about the show and what people like about this portrayal of the universes that we see those people, these people who are aching out in an existence under an oppressive regime, not just the people who are sort of the heroes who are going to say to the galaxy.
Yeah, something from your piece that really spoke to me. As where you say the series attempts to imagine and internal politics of class, culture and ideology that motivates its principal characters and fictional institutions. I would say that it's quite easy to say that and Or is probably the first Star Wars that has really even delved into the
ideas of class. You know, The Last Jedi definitely wanted to touch on this idea of a democracy of the force and how all different people from all different spaces. But and Or, like you said, it really delves into kind of the politics of class and how it impacts the galaxy. Could you speak a little to that and how effective you think it is in this series.
Yeah, I mean, look, I mean, you know Pheris, you know, Perix's working class planet. The people there are doing salvage and so they're working with their hands. You know, the empire is you know, you get a sense that the heights in the film, in the show provides the pretext for the empire to engage in uh, you know, essentially
prison slave labor to spee up. You know that that's not necessarily a question of uh, the utility of the repression, but the need to uh recruit a labor force, you know, the the you have you know things like you know, Carn is not simply an ideologue. He is sort of from a lower middle class family on Corroussant, like we never we can't see the sky from where Karn's apartment, mother's apartment is, right. It's a small apartment. It's a kitchen at the dining room. You can see the stove
from the dining room. You know what I mean. It's it's a small apartment. The neighbors are observing, you know, they can hear uh. You know it's it's uh, you know, lower east side, New York City or something like that, you know, uh, eighty years ago. And and that that
that kind of detail. And I think this is again this on that the and Or does really well, is that it they've done their research about historical periods and events in a way that allows them to remix them in a way that they're recognizable, but also like they're not tracing them, you know what I mean, Like it's it still feels like Star Wars. It doesn't feel like
you know, it doesn't really feel like New York City. Yeah, you know, the the the prison break, which you know, like the events of the prison break really sound a lot like the concentration camp uprising at Sobeople were in World War Two. But it but at the same time, it's not so close to it that you're like, oh, they just copied this.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, they translate it into the world of Star Wars in a way that feels organic.
Right exactly. And you know, things like you know, Masma's daughter, you know, embracing you know, her plans religious traditions in a way that feels like an act of defiance, you know, not just towards her parents, but towards the empire, you know, which is again it is it is similarly violently secular right they do not have. They tolerate religion, but they see it as a privilege that they can take away, not as a right of the people under their control.
And so I think, you know, these are all things that are drawn from the I mean, and even when you look at Rogue One, it's sort of a similar like that film is a creature of this period, but I think it is a not It is a very clear sort of analogy to the War in Afghanistan in terms of this portrayal. It's like a space Afghanistan, but or the Western perception of the War in Afghanistan rather.
But the point is that it's taking these real world events and remixing them in a way that makes sense within the universe, and that gives the universe a sort of realistic feel that you know, Star Wars is typically not known Star Wars is a space offera, but it's really a fantasy, right. It's almost like it's more it's closer to Lord of the Rings than Star Trek in
some ways. And so I think, you know, the sci fi aspects of and Or are there, like they're obviously present, you know, you but they are not the wheels around which the plot itself turns.
Necessarily because the show is so interested in like what motivates people to rebel, what motivates a political movement. I wonder if you could if you have any thoughts about how we interact, you know, as human beings with our political ideals. Is that a scaffolding that we then build our outlook on, or do people decide as I think, you know, scheme the kind of Rapscallion a Donnie gang member who then tries to get Cassie and to like turn on the on the group and steal the money
he had. He had kind of won him to a side by saying, oh, you know, they killed my brother and here's why I turned against the empire, you know, as is kind of alluded to by his character. People make a decision that they're going to do something and then backfill this entire political ideology to fit that, like which comes first, the chicken or the egg? Do you think in the way we interact with our political ideals?
Well, I think one thing one of the things that I like about the show is that it is not the characters make choices. Yeah, you know, Mam Mathma is from a particular social class and she makes the choice to rebell. Not everybody in her social circle is making that choice. In fact, most people are not making that choice. She she she views the rebellion through her own ideological lens. You know, she's horrified by al Donnie, even though like
al Donnie is what she is. Funded. Yeah, you know, so her her class background, her privilege, she interprets the rebellion through that, and obviously you know, we know what happens with my mathma later if you're if you're a Star Wars fan, but you know the same thing, you know they're you know, Skiing is an example of someone who is he believes because he and and Or are sort of from the same galactic underclass, that they're going to make the same decisions and that moment narratively, you know,
and Or is not necessarily committing to the rebellion at that moment. In fact, he's not. His plan is to take that loot and go to Space Miami and he doesn't get a get a girl, and like you know, enjoy the rest of his life. But he's not. He's also not going to betray the rebellion, of course, and
so you see, and similarly on pharyx Uh. You know, there are people who make the choice to rebel, and there are people who make the choices side with the empire, and you know, I think that's you know, the point of the show is that they're and I think something to show as well is that you know, these these
class backgrounds, these cultural backgrounds, they matter. They shape our politics, but we do make decisions for ourselves about how we interpret those experiences and how we choose to, you know, how we choose to try and shape the world as a result of them. And it's not just a question of robotic you know, insert this background you can get this politics.
Yeah, and for you as a Star Wars fan, you know, we're talking about this on a really kind of deep political level, and like you said, Rogue One definitely was. There was a reason that a lot of Star Wars fans loved it, which was, oh, well, this is this is the people who have to die before you know, Luke and Layer can get a medal. Like, let's talk about that and what kind of expands on that exponentially.
But you know, even as a Star Wars fan, like you said, inherently a political franchise, even though usually quite vague, I found myself like incredibly surprised. And me and Jason have talked about this a lot. To see a a prison slavery plot line and to get people on the side of people who are in prison, who are being exploited for their labor, and then to cheer them on for a prison breakout, you know, for a riot and
to get people on their side. Were you surprised as you were watching the show to see the kind of political analogs it was taking and the stories they decided to tell.
Yeah, I mean, look, you know that the protagonist is a character who's father is a black man who's killed by the cops. Like, you know, there's just you know, I think that, you know, because of my politics, I think, you know, obviously I tend to see some of the more left wing and analogies in the story. I think there are right wing ones. I mean, I think the Empire's violence secularism is obviously you know, in keeping with you know, left wing, repressive, left wing regimes around the world.
Or I don't think that's a mistake, or you know, the they are drawn from a lot of Like I said, they're drawing from a lot of sources. I don't think I was surprised because Rogue One was so clearly playing in those waters. I did not expect them to weave them so skillfully into the story of the show. In such a way that the show does not feel didactic to me. You know, when you read out the sort of list of plot developments and character motivations and things
like that, it does feel very political. But in the show it feels very organic. It does not feel like you are being battered over the head with a particular political ideology. Now maybe, you know, maybe that's because I'm you know, I'm a left to set a person, so that's just I'm sympathetic, But I do think that I do think that narratively that you know, it is a good show that just happens to have, you know, plot points that illustrate a particular kind of politics, but they're
not the most important thing in the show. The most important thing in the show is that the narrative flows organically and movingly and artistically, and it's not simply you know,
battering you over the head with what to think. At the same time, again, like look, you know, this is Star Wars, like it's an anti imperial the story is always going to be antipol It doesn't matter who the who, you know, what form the empire takes, whether it's like fifty thousand years in the past or whatever, and it's a sip empire, or it's you know, the galactic empire that we see in the original trilogy or the first
Order we see in a sequel trilogy. You know that that is always you know, in some sense, that kind of rebellion is always that anti authoritarian politics is always going to be President's story.
Something that Rosie and I have been really interested in discussing and noting is like the seemingly very conscious human supremacy of this story. Star Wars is a you know, it's a story in a world, in a galaxy populated by lots of different species and and droids, but this is a story centered around humans, particularly empire. You don't see any droids at the highest levels of the decision making the ISB. You mostly see people and white people and very few women. Even in this kind of like
nascent rebellion. You know, Sagerera has as a pretty in graded crew. But that's it. I wonder if you might expound on, you know, what, what do you think the human supremacy of this story, you know, means to the story?
Yeah, I mean I think you know, if you're a Star Wars fan, there's a you know that there's a long time narrative narrative explanation for this, which is that you know, the Empire is racist. The Empire is the humans a premicist organization. And you know in Rogue one you see you see more weird aliens fighting on the beach alongside the rebellion and here in and Or, uh, you know, there is a conscious effort to portray the protagonists as being sympathetic to droids and aliens in a
way that the Empire is not. I mean, obviously B two Emo is probably the most sympathetic non comic relief portrayal of a droid we've ever seen.
Yeah, he's basically a very very sweet dog, very.
But and you know, some of that is in Rogue one, you know, the the reprogram imperial droid whose name is wagon on k K T s O. Right. I mean, like you know when when he sacrifices himself, you know, and Or is upset he knows his friend is dead. I mean, he's so, but he's sort of at the same time he treats him like, you know, you're my droid, where it's like B two Emo, there is that moment, uh, you know where he's like, I don't want to leave
the house. Yeah, when and he's like, well, I'll stay with you, which is like, you know, a level of droids are people that I think we haven't seen before, so which I think is like, you know, pulling in one of the more problematic threads of Star Wars, which is that droids are you know, sort of slaves, but
nobody ever really acknowledges that. But yeah, I mean, I think, you know, we see you know, and then we we get that moment where they're escaping from the prison and they're you know, they try to they try to hot wire the ship of two fishing aliens, and aliens could turn them in, but they don't instead because they're like, well, we're not going to turn them into the Empire. The
Empire like we don't like those guys. Yeah, you know, I think I would expect, I mean, the two things that you know, I expect from the second season of the show, other than a high body count or problem, some explanation, like some further explanation of of like sort of lay religion when it comes to the forest that we saw on Rogue one, and probably like more dealing with aliens, although I think, you know, to some extent even though there is a narrative explanation for why you
don't see so many aliens. You know, I think there's probably some budget constraints as well. I mean, I think there's probably like one of the reasons and or looks so good compared to some other Disney Plus series is there's a tremendously well done allocation of budget there where the story is done in such a way as to require a few moments of like crazy special effects, but not as many. You know, you don't have you know, you don't have two giant dragons fighting each other or
something like that. You know what I mean that this is a story that it's it's I mean like even you know, the sort of final episode like is like a Shakespeare play where all the characters are on the stage at the same time. Like it's written sort of like almost like a play, and so you know, it
does not require it didn't have. You know, there are a couple of moments, like you know, when when Luten escapes in his ship that are like obviously, like we spend a lot of money on this and it was very satisfying, but you know, I don't know how much of the lack of aliens is a question of budget constraints or how much of it is a demand of narrative. But you know, those are always you know, those are conflicts that even shows that are fund about the mouse have to make.
Yeah. Yeah, and also as well, like those are the confines of the budget can often birth really exciting things. So I think the fact that it probably was driven by a budget, but then it leads to people having conversations like this about whether it's deeper connected to the narrative is part of kind of the wonder of these shows. I mean, nobody expected a twelve episode Star Wars show to look so incredible because we all just assumed it was going to be the six episode budget stretched over
twelve episodes. So it's definitely a surprising tind of event.
Yeah, I mean it's like it's it's impossible, like how do you how do you explain how and or looks the way it does in Book of Boba Filix the way it does, like how do you know what I mean? Like it's this I mean even like let's just take away the sort of quality of the writing whatever, you know, they these shows look completely different.
Yeah, the production design of Pheryx is so textured, it feels so real. The finale really leans into that, and also extras I think that's the biggest thing. There's so many people in and Or, but the Book of Boba fairt everywhere you go, only six people live there. Doesn't feel it.
Feels it doesn't feel lived in. It feels like you're you're you're looking at a set and I'm not even I mean, at some point I was questioning, like, how much of the Spherics set has been used in like other Star Wars shows. Yeah, it's and somehow it feels unrecognizable, like you're not like, oh, this is obviously most icily you know that's that's not the reaction you have looking at Ferrex. You know consciously that this has probably been
used before, but it's not. It doesn't. It doesn't feel that way because of the way they do it.
To your point, Rosie, I think part of this, another thing we've talked about in past discussions of the show is this is really tales of the Jedi side, the first depiction of mass protest in a Star Wars universe that's real, kind of like Battleship potempk and feel of an uprising. You know, against impossible imperial odds. We've never seen that before in Star Wars, and it really packs a kind of emotional and very ambiguous political punch. You know,
who doesn't love freedom? You know, people people have crossed the ideological spectrum love to talk about freedom. But yet the I think part of why it looks so great is look at all these people here that are protesting against the empire. This is incredible to see.
Yeah, I mean, I think Star Wars. I think that truth is that the politics of Star Wars were always the sort of you know, nineteenth century republicanism in a way that was uncontroversial until recently. Yeah, when people started you know, uh being like you know, romanticizing like Francoist Spain or something like that. You know, this sort of like weird neo falangism that you see amongst you know,
certain circles. But you know, I think I think to some extent, that shift in our own politics is really the thing that's changed the most. You know, I think, uh, you know, and or has like some reflections of our era in terms of you know, uh, mass incarceration, the issues that animated the George Floyd protests, you know, questions about uh, equal protection under the law. But I think it's politics will not seem so radical to us were it not for our political context. I'm not sure that
it will feel that way necessarily to future generations. Yeah, I mean, you know Star Wars itself, despite you know, the original, despite sort of you know, Lucas saying well, you know, the rebels are kind of like the Viet Cong or whatever. You know, people didn't interpret it that way at the time. Like nobody, nobody who went to see Star Wars in nineteen seventy seven. Not nobody, you know, I can't say that.
But yes, the people that were queuing me and four times a day to watch the movie.
Right, people were like laser Stords and spacey you know, and like the rebels are us obviously look at these British accents. Yeah, and that's that's another thing, like you know, this sort of like strain of like irreligion in the Empire. It's like, you think about one of the best things that Star Wars does. It takes like little threat it's
from from from previous installments and draws them out. So you have, you know, the scene in the first in a New Hope, which is like you know, some imperial general saying to something you know, uh, you know, you don't frighten us with your source service ways, Lord Vader, your sad devotion to that ancient religion, you know, just like contempt for faith that like you know, then spins
into like everything we're talking about. Or like there's a line in Rogue one where Cheiritt says something about and or or like this one has a prison in him and he takes it with him wherever he goes. Like now you look back at that line, Yeah, you're like a holy shit. And this is something that's I mean, like you know, this is something that Star Wars does, Like you know that scene in In a New Hope where Luke runs into the Millennium Falk and he has to abandon obi Wan, who you know it is, is
about to be killed by Vader. You know, that's like the last the completion of Order sixty six, except you don't know that because it's nineteen seventy seven. But it's like that scene where like a padawan has to abandon his master who's being killed by the Empire like that.
We've seen that replay over and over. Yeah, which is self you know, which which you know, is it's like you can retcon Star Wars in a way that makes prior moments that were supposed to be one thing means something completely different and being emotionally resonant in a completely different way. And it's something that I don't I'm not. It's hard to think of another genre or another you know, another universe in fictional universe in which that kind of
thing is really possible in the same way. I mean, other people try to do it. I won't mention any names, but other people have tried to do it in a way that seems like hackey and like just you know, trying to preserve a particular brand's relevance for for for a certain moment. But with this, it's like people take something like like Dave Filonia will take something that was in the prequels, the original trilogy and spin it out
into some narrative complexity that becomes wonderful. And that's and or sort of like that on a grand.
Scale, Yeah, you touched a little bit, I think as well. On the trajectory of Star Wars is quite unusual because for a long time it was kept alive by these you know, expanded universe. Now known as legends novels. So in that way, people have always been taking those little threads and expanding it out, whether it's a book about a character that you didn't realize could have this kind
of complex interior life. And then that is now continued in the way that new creators are taking things and collaborating on old ideas to kind of keep the IP going. But it's kind of one of the blessings of that constraint of, oh, we need to keep this IP alive, we need to keep people caring about it. You get creators who sometimes come in and see something like Tony Gilroy saw and the possibilities of this story to kind of tell an entirely different to show an entirely different
version of what we've seen before. So you wrote your piece before this had ended. We are now post to the finale of and Or. How do you feel like the show hit looking Back is now that you've seen the first season.
I mean, look, it's it's obviously. I think it's one of the best interpretations of this universe that we've ever seen Artistically from a narrative perspective, I think it's tremendous, you know, just in terms of portraying what motivates someone to be a rebel or to line up with the empire. I think that's just the question that you know, was not necessarily previously asked. I mean, I think or at least not asked and answered in a way that felt satisfying.
I mean, when you look at the prequels, you know, this is sort of the point of the prequels was to say, this is how Darth Vader happened. Yeah, right, And you know, the world building in the prequels was so good that it created a lot of potential, right, but the ultimate narrative of how Darth Vader happened felt
very unsatisfying for a lot of people. And then you had Clone Wars, you know, which really pulled it this thread and like portrayed it, like showed this like evolution of Anakin as someone who is like slowly being radicalized, so that between episode two and episode three, you know, Clone Wars gives a tale of how Anakin becomes more and more desperate and attached from you know, his own self discipline so as to make himself vulnerable to Palpatine's manipulations,
and that so so again in the Grand Tradition, of like Rogue one filling a giant Star Wars plot hole. Why would the Empire have a super weapon with such an easy way to destroy it? Like, I mean, that's what Rogue one is, right, it is a movie that is devoted Why did the Empire build something that you
could destroy so easily with this like one loophole? And the answers, Oh, because this guy did it as like an act of ultimate revenge against the Empire, Like that's you know, in the same grand tradition, Like how why does Anakin show up in episode three as like sort of a psychopath? And the answers, you know, he's been frustrated for the Jedi Order for years. They unfairly expelled his potwan they you know, there's all the stuff that gets filled in that helps make the narrative return make
more sense. And I think and Or, you know, both Rogue one and and Or gives us that, well, what happened before episode four, you know what happened to get to how did how is the Rebellion build? It gives us these answers in a way that I think is extremely satisfying, building on you know, not just the the the not just the good parts of the old universe, but even the bad part. I mean, that's that's one of the great things is that you could take a plot hole as big as why is why is destroying
the Death Star? So as easy as you know, shooting a torpedo into an exhaust port and spin like a beautiful explanation out of it that is emotionally compelling, And it's like again, it's this is a plot hole. This is a you know, a flaw in the original storytelling, and you know, and they somehow made a great story out of it, and that's you know, that's that's part of the magic of the universe for me.
Adam, thank you so much for joining us. Do you have anything to plug?
You know, I'll plug our World Cup newsletter right now. The World Cup is going on. This is a whole other aspect of of my nerd life, but the World Cup is going on. Atlantic has a World Cup news letter, The Great Game. I'm not the only person writing it. There's a lot of other people writing great writers, Clint Smith, Adam Harris, Frank Bower, and I highly recommend it, especially if you are not, uh, you know, a super soccer fan. This is like more for the people who tune into
the World Cup every four years. And that's it. Thank you so much for having me on the show.
One last thing do you want to this is your this is your opportunity, perfect opportunity to to talk trash about Chase Serrano, our mutual in a context that that he that might get back to him. And then, uh so, any any burns, any roasts of Shay that you'd like to share on the program today.
You know, if you had prepared me, I would have. I would have thought one up, made a Google docab, I would have made it. I would have made an Excel document with all my possible Shay zingers. But it's hard though, because we're both like, uh you know, we're both like bald, high little hobbits. So you know, it gets to like anything I said, what am I going to say about Shaye that isn't also true about me? But yeah, I just so, I guess that'll kind of is my burn look like that? How about that?
Adam? Thank you so much for joining us. Please take care, gosh, yeah, a great day.
Yeah.
In today's nerd out, where you theorize about your favorite fandoms and tell us what you love and why Liz theorizes about the Big Man's possible force sensitive nature in and Or.
Hey, everybody, friend of the program, Liz here with a wild and Or theory for you. I'm here to talk about the top ten ish reasons that I think that the fourth sensitive.
Character that we have been introduced to is Braso.
Just gonna throw this out here off the top. I am obsessed with this show. It is the best Star Wars I have seen in years, maybe ever, I don't know. Got to wait some time for that recency bias to clear, but I'm obsessed with it, and I'm obsessed with it, particularly because it does not follow the same Star Wars formulaic, space magic whatever heroes trope that we've all come to know and love.
So I don't want or need a forced sensitive character necessarily.
However, there are some huge indicators that I've noticed and I want to share them here, So right off the bat, number ten probably not the strongest, but hey, if you look at his outfit, he is wearing pretty much the same outfit as one of our other favorite Jedi as we Bridger.
That's right.
Take a look, folks, orange jumpsuit, kind of a weird thing, and He's also not wearing the same clothes as the.
Rest of his friends and his working group. Number nine. He is kind to droids.
I know that that's not a uniquely Jedi characteristic. However, it is almost universally true within the Jedi that they are kind to droids and other sentient beings in ways that regular humans are not.
Number eight.
The word force is used incredibly sparingly in the show. I think just a handful of times, and one of those times is brus Oh.
Yes, he is relaying a message from Marva.
However, you cannot ignore the fact that that word is only used a handful of times, and one of those times is coming from this man's mouth.
Number seven.
There is something so force poetic about using a brick made of an anti fascist loved one to beat fascists straight up period.
Number six.
He has an incredible sense of knowledge and timing that I think is a little suspect. For example, in episode three, it's implied, or I inferred.
That he is the one who tied the.
Corpos shipped down while they were trying to grab Cassian, and he is the one who affixed that ship to it, causing the pilot to die. That pilot was the one who killed Tim. Now to be clear, fucked Tim. He fucking ratted on Cassie into the Corpos. All Corpos are bastards whatever whatever. Attim did not deserve to die like that.
Fuck that Corpo.
Awesome that Brosso seemed to know that this is the dude and this is how to get him.
Number five.
His sense of timing is also pretty incredible, thinking about the fact that he started that funeral with his own sort of motion. That funeral was supposed to take place several hours after it it actually did, and the timing ended up being such that all of the Imperial guards were away from the hotel when Cassie and needed them to be away so that he could rescue Bicks. Just thrown out there, very coincidental timing. Number four. That man knows when to go and when to fight. Look at
episode twelve. He is in the thick of that ride. He fucking started that ride rightfully. So how dare that Imperial piece of shit? Kick be too emo? My favorite joy they have maybe Chopper, but very's wrong contender for favor Droid. But he knows when it's time to go, And that's also a uniquely Jedi characteristic number three. Knows what people are doing and feeling. He knows that Cassian has turned a corner when he meets with him in that tunnel. He knows that he's going to go and
rescue Bicks. He knows that Cassian's not going.
To go with them.
At the end of episode twelve, he knows that Pegla is not going to go with them.
He just seems to know things about people.
I think that's very interesting because we don't know anything about him. We don't know where he came from, we don't know if he has family, we don't know what his background is like.
And that also lends credit to the theory that he's for sensitive, because the question of course ariveses this man isn't like fifteen years old.
Where were the Jedi when he was born? How come they didn't detect his forced sensitivity? If he's for sensitive, truly, we don't know anything about him, and Anakin didn't get detected, so there's a possibility that there are other Force users out there that didn't get to We now come to
probably the two biggest components to my theory. Number two, that man shook an Imperial detail to go and meet with the most wanted man on Ferris in episode twelve and give him vital information from Marba, basically bolstering him up, allowing him to go and be the hero that he needs to be for the day. I think that's pretty Jedi and number one, the Imperials nicknamed him the big Man, this large target, calmly walked through heavy blaster fire to pull out Lill Pop and take him away from danger.
Didn't get hit, didn't really even seem fluxed.
That's to me pretty indicative.
There we go.
Those are my top ten. Fight me whatever you want to do.
But that's what I thought. I am going to close just gushing a little bit. Like I said at the top, I'm obsessed with this show. It brings the Star Wars themes that I've been so desperate to see right to the forefront, without using any of the.
Tropes that you know Star Wars has come to rely on.
I am deeply invested in these characters, knowing that most of them are doomed, and I cannot wait for next season.
I'm sure you guys are right there with me.
Thanks Liz for submitting. Thank you everyone who's submitted to Nerd outs this year and stay tuned for the return of the segment in twenty twenty three. Huge thank you to Adam Sewerr and of course Rosy Knight, Rosie Plugs, Plugs Plugs, Can you give us one other very vague clue about an upcoming secret project that you have?
You know, I can actually say, because this is true of a few different things. Yes, I am working. The project I'm working on at the moment also has art by the incredible Oliver Ono, so I can say that. So it's a ret and that's a couple of different things, So that's very exciting. Plugs Rosie marks. On Instagram you can find me and letterbox under the same thing. My biggest plug would be that we are going to be
at We're gonna be La Comic Con. If you listen to this on Friday, we will be there on Saturday, come and see us.
I'm through.
We will be there tomorrow. It's going to be our first live comic com recording. You should come. It will be really fun and yeah, it we'll just be It will be a blast and eli Comicon's pray chill compared to the other comic cons.
Catch our next episode on December ninth. Don't forget to subscribe to the show on YouTube and follow at xrvpod on Twitter who knows for how much longer, and check out the discord and me to hang out with other X ray Vision fans. Rosie and I are there. We are interacting and communicating with everybody there and it's really fun community. Of course, as Rosie said, La Comic Con tomorrow December third, Saturday, December third at eleven thirty am and Room four h two come through and see us
five star reviews. We love them, we need them, We got to have them. Here's one from Hop Jake, a show I never missed. Jason and Rosie have such great chemistry together. When they make each other laugh, you can't help but smile as if you're all sitting at a table with friends nerding out. Thank you, Hop Jake, that's so awesome, and thanksgivings over. But we want to special thank you to everybody who's been listening to the pod
and everybody who's been sharing your Spotify wraps. You're end wrap ups of all the stuff you've been listening to on that platform that have included X ray Vision and have tagged us in it. That's so nice of you. Thank you so much, thank you. I wanted to quickly share a note with you about someone who's added a lot to X ray Vision. Brian Vasquez, who composed and produced the music x ray Vision to takeline to various other Cricket pods and also compose the interstitial music, has
recently been diagnosed with leukemia. It's very unfortunate that we live in a country where people who fall ill then have to ask for money, but here we are. His family has set up a GoFundMe. If you want to support him and give best wishes to his family, you can find information about that on the show notes. We're wishing the best for Brian and he's in our thoughts. X ray Vision is a Crooked Media production. The show
is produced by Chris Lord and Soul Rubin. The show is executive produced by myself and Sandy's Rhard Are editing and sound designers by Vascillis Fatopoulos, Dilon Villanueva and Matt Group provide video production support. Alex Rellaford handle social media. Thank you Brian Vasquez for theme music. See you next time, everybody e