E7 | WTF is ASD?

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Hello there. Welcome back to another episode of WTF is Audie HD by Ellie and Paige. We're two neurodivergent sisters who were diagnosed with autism and ADHD very late. We were diagnosed late. And we're here to educate. I'm wearing a bra and my boobs are shaking really hard. Neither am I, but you would not be able to tell because mine are a tenth of the size of Ellie's.

How awful are bras? Like, literally. I try to go, like, wear one sometimes because I'm like, well, I'm going to get saggy boobs. Who cares, first of all? I actually don't care. I'm embracing my sag. But, like, who cares? But then I go to a go, like, put one on. I'm just like, oh, I actually. I just can't. No, it makes me so angry. Oh my god, it makes me, it overstimulates me, makes me angry, and it's just I'm constantly like, like, pulling it, like. So, like, who?

Okay. Bras though. Like who invented them and why do we have to wear them? And why? Because I get maybe when you're playing sport, you're not having to hold them and not have them like, you know, bashing up and down. I get that. But on day to day basis, when I'm just sitting around on my ass. Why do I have to wear a bra? No, it is so stupid. It is completely a patriarchal thing, in my opinion, that's been put on us to be, what is the word, like, to be.

What's the word? Like manicured? Yeah, and like to be subtle. No, what's that word? I don't know, Ellie. You're the wordsmith. Hurry up. No, I'm talking about like. Discreet is the word I'm trying to, I think, say. It's about being discreet and don't distract the boys. Free the nipple, mate. I literally go to work without a bra on and I just don't. Like, literally hit me up. I will probably.

rant away see I wish I could do that mine are a bit big I mean I could do it but I'm too scared to go to work with my tits out no this is the thing it frustrates me because you could do that but people would probably have something to say like it just sucks because and people would look as well

This is the thing. I think that bras were made from the male lens and I think they're there to basically hide and restrict us. But then also push them up. Yeah, and push them up. Make them look better. Yeah. Like, why? Oh my God, like, why? Anyway, is this like...

Sorry. The bra podcast? No, but, like, I feel like everyone listening who wears bras would probably relate to this, surely. Oh, my God. Like, I'm just so over it. Like, why are we doing that? Oh, my God. I feel really comfy right now. It is so comfy and freeing. Yeah, just hang on. Get down there. Oh my god, free the nip. I literally don't even mind a little bit of see-through. Neither, show it. Oh my god, I think, you know.

If fucking Bob at the beach can let his bloody tits out, I'm going to do it too. Exactly right. Do your tits hang low? Do they wobble to inflow? Do they try them in a knot? Can you tie them in a bow? Can you throw them over your shoulder? I can, you can't. Oh, my God.

Oh, well, anyway, so this is not an episode about breasts, but this is an episode about autism and sensory sensitivities, which I guess it's a good segue. It is. Autism. What is it? That's a great question. I don't even know. We're coming at this. So today we're talking about autism and what it is. We're going to define it to an extent and just talk about little characteristics of it. Again, there's way more we can go into about autism and it's a very broad spectrum.

And this is not possibly going to represent everyone because everyone who is autistic is very different. It's so complex. So complex. And please always bear in mind that we're coming at this from the ADHD lens as well. ADHD to the combination of both, which obviously means our...

manifestations of behavior can be seen as very different to someone that really does struggle with social situations and yeah exactly right so just stuff to bear in mind and I will say as well which by the way I do struggle with social situations like really heavily but you probably wouldn't

be able to tell that because I also think your ADHD helps you there yeah like you're novelty seeking and you're you're loud and you're fun and and so it masks it and it makes it look like you're absolutely fine yeah but actually you're dying inside I'm dying inside yeah cheers um so we I've only been diagnosed with autism last April so this is a 10 month old diagnosis for me and Paige we've kind of as we've mentioned diagnosed her based on my diagnosis but you're also currently getting screened

Yeah, I got screened a few weeks ago and she was like, yes, that's rather high there for that one. We'll get your mum to fill out this questionnaire and then we'll go from there. So, yes. Yeah, so we're coming at this with quite fresh and new knowledge. Our ADHD, we were diagnosed with quite a few years ago now. So last week's episode about ADHD, we're probably a lot more knowledgeable on it and we have...

thought about it a lot longer than we have the autism so there may be gaps in our knowledge here and please feel free to give us feedback on autism because again it's so different for everyone yeah we're not experts at all we're just talking from our experience and what we've learned so far so if you have anything to add let us know we've got a form on our

link tree yeah yeah exactly so autism or autism spectrum disorder is again a neurological and developmental condition so you're born with it um and it affects how a person experiences the world So it's about processing the world, emotions, senses. It influences our communication, social interactions, sensory processing, and the way we think, like our patterns of behavior and our thinking patterns.

It is a spectrum, as we've mentioned before, but the spectrum is not linear. It doesn't go on a straight line. It is more round and you can have lots of maybe sensory difficulties over here, but then you're not too bad with maybe social communication over here. Everyone's spectrum is different. And everyone, if you've met one autistic person, you've only met one autistic person. Yeah, and when we say it's a spectrum, we don't mean that every human's on that spectrum. No. We mean that.

If you are autistic, there is a spectrum. Yeah. It's literally how your brain is wired. And now when you're younger, when you're born, you're a baby and you're born with lots of neural pathways and it's called plasticity where your brain's actually like not molded yet properly. The neural pathways are just firing off.

everywhere. And what happens in your first few years of life is that you go through what's called neural pruning, where your brain starts pruning neural pathways off that aren't needed. They start...

realizing, oh, that pathway's not needed, that pathway's not needed, that one's not needed. And then neurotypical people end up with these clear pathways with a lot less. The thing with autistic people or autism... is that the neural pruning doesn't happen as severely so what happens is people with autism have way more neural pathways constantly firing off at once so that's why when you walk into a room say and you're autistic

You're not just processing the person you're talking to. You're processing the lights. You're processing the sounds. You're processing the people over there. You're processing every single sense. You're processing their outfit. You're literally processing. It is so overwhelming. So overwhelming. And that is why you end up with a meltdown because you just can't handle all of the information coming at you all at once. This is why we get overwhelmed. I freeze a lot of the time.

Yeah, cheers. That's my contribution. So you froze there. Okay, cool. No, no, we're going to exhibit A. Seriously, I go to say a lot and it actually shows on some of like the social clips and I'm just like, no. No, yeah. No, but yeah, you freeze. Yeah.

I freeze because it's so much. It's easier to ignore all of it or try to ignore all of it because you don't have the, your brain can't handle how much it needs to process. I know, but it's like, I'm not even trying to ignore it. It's like, it's like, I'm not saying, but it's like a natural.

thing where like my brain just goes into fucking like the freaking dial-up sound and it's just like offline and it's like i got a little rainbow body yeah the rubber wheel of death is what i usually call that one Yeah. So people are talking at me and I'm like, yeah. And then I, yeah, I panic. I come out of a social situation and I go, what just happened? What did I say? What did they say? Who did I see?

They're going to think I'm weird because, yeah. Yeah, you're just in survival mode. Like, literally. I literally am in survival. Yeah. And that's why some people, like, who are autistic, they go into a supermarket and it's too much. And people go, oh, you're being dramatic. You're being a drama queen. Oh, I wear my headphones and it's like.

Game Changers, guys. Pages, pointers. This is a great one. Literally. I've got a few pointers where that came from. Pages, pointers. And that's one of them. I know a lot of people do this already, but seriously, if you struggle with that, go to the supermarket with your noise cancelling headphones on.

And it will just, it just is alleviating. It is. And I mean, I am probably that person that's, you know, standing in the aisle and if someone's like, excuse me, excuse me, which is also the fear of being perceived. But also I'm at that point now, I'm at that age. bit more mature and i'm starting to unmask and i'm just like you know what walk around yeah exactly anyway great pages pointers yeah love it yeah um

Now, autism comes in three levels. We have touched on this very, very vaguely, but there's three levels of autism. Level one is just requiring support, and that used to be called Asperger's syndrome, which we no longer use. Level two is requiring substantial support. And then level three is requiring very substantial support. So it's basically...

level of support needed. They're still the same condition. And it's not to say that any of those levels are more intelligent or less intelligent than the others either. No. Because someone who has high support needs, very high support needs, or is at level three autism.

They may not be able to use language. They may not be able to speak, but they could be really, really good. So intelligent in other ways. Exactly. They might be really good at puzzles or really good at drawing or really they've got skills. that aren't necessarily language-based but are more visual-based. This is the thing about autism. People have a bad connotation with people who are autistic at level three, but it's because from the neurotypical capitalistic lens...

they're not able to do what society thinks they should do. Yeah. But they could be like the best artists in the world creating the best art in their basement and you wouldn't even know. So intelligent. So intelligent. And so when you get rid of that perception that all that stereotype that people seem to have.

because yeah the autism is not as a lack of intelligence or it's definitely not it's not at all it's just uh yeah the world has prior like uh categorized people based on how much um their needs are impacting impacting others others yeah that's actually what it is level one autism is seen as like asperges is like socially acceptable because we don't

put our needs on others this is all in like yeah speech marks i'm not saying that like this is true but i often think that people uh judge people who are autistic based on how much their needs impact the wider world yeah and it shouldn't be that way because also then people who are high mask is like ask at level one we then end up taking the cost internally yes because we realize that we're going to be painful so then we

We internalize all of it and we make sure that we don't need support. And we're lucky enough to not need too much support as well. There's huge differences. And I think we should get people on who are different levels of autistic eventually on this podcast.

because there's such different experiences and again we're coming from this is why it's so complex to talk about so if you yeah have anything to add yeah exactly yeah um we used to say high functioning and low functioning but they're outdated terms now because if you really think about it those two terms are pretty like they're bad connotations yeah like high functioning is what we would have been classed as but

How do you even define functioning? Because, yes, I'm high functioning in an office space and I go in and I do my job. Because you look like you are. But internally. But internally, I'm depressed and have really bad mental health. And then low functioning is only judged, again, based on neurotypical. How they perceive you. Yeah. And how you contribute to their, not theirs, but you know, like the world. Yeah, exactly. So those terms are outdated. It is now just the levels of requiring support.

and substantial support, et cetera. I also just want to come out and say autism is not caused by vaccinations. That is false. That is false. Like, please, that is not a thing. It is genetic. It's neurological. and you were born with it. And that's always been a theory for many years. It was debunked years ago, but there are still people in leadership roles at the moment coming out and saying things like this. I'm not going to name them, but...

There are people coming out and saying that, oh, all these people are bloody being diagnosed with autism now. It must be the vaccines. No, it's not. It's the knowledge we now have and we're getting way more educated and we now realise what autism actually is and it can look very different. in low masking versus high masking, men versus women. People are just finally getting the help that they need and not internalizing it all and ending up trigger warning.

abusing the bodies or committing suicide. Like literally. And so people are getting, yes, diagnosed with it. Thank goodness because it saves lives. It does. And that's why it seems like so many people were getting diagnosed because we know about it now and people are able to get the help that they need. Yeah, exactly.

I think also people say that it's just something you can have as a kid. Again, not true. You're autistic for your whole life. If you're born with it, you stay with autism. It's who you are. It's how your brain's wired. I also just want to debunk another myth that autistic people lack empathy. It's not true. It's actually not true. Heck no. And many autistic people actually have hyper empathy, like really big amounts of it. But the difference is that we communicate differently.

We may not communicate our empathy, but we're still feeling it. Yeah. We just don't have the same language. Some people have different language. styles to neurotypical people and so they think we're not empathetic but actually we're feeling it all we just don't know how to express it and i think can i just add to that it's like

A learned behavior of that or trait that tends to be related to neurodivergent people is justice sensitivity. Men, you have it horrifically. And I know a few other people who are also neurodivergent. close friends of ours who also have justice sensitivity. And do you reckon that, I don't know, I'm theorizing here, but it comes from the fact that we feel empathy so deeply. So when we see someone.

being mistreated or we see a group of people being mistreated. It's just like I'm a bloody keyboard warrior on my stories. It seems just, yeah, silly, but I just, it just triggers me so hard. Do you reckon that could be? I think, yeah, I think we also have often autistic people have black and white thinking in a way of it's either one or the other. And I think we just have very strong.

It's actually what it comes down to is we have strong morals and we have strong values. We're very set in who we are. And therefore, when we see an injustice happening, we cannot help but say something or try and stop it.

I think it's to do with how strong our neural pathways are. This is another thing. We have a lot of neural pathways and they're really strong. And that's why monotropism is the idea that autistic people can only focus on one thing at a time. So someone who's autistic might be drawing.

and you can try and talk to them and they won't respond because they actually can't hear you because they're monotropic and they're literally focused on this one thing at one time very intensely because that neural pathway is so intense that you can't snap them out of it.

And it looks like they're being rude, but actually they're not. They're just focused on one thing at a time. Yeah. Nah, totes. Some people with autism or who are autistic are nonverbal. But again, that's what we were talking about before. It's not because they lack intelligence. It's just... Genuinely, their brain is wired differently and they don't have the skills of the language that we've produced as a society.

but they have other ways of expressing themselves. Can I just point on that? I said this a few episodes ago, but looking back on footage of me, I wasn't fully mute, of course. But I was seriously quite non-verbal. Kind of. I mean, unless I was having a meltdown and I was screaming. Not with words. I was screaming because I needed my needs met.

Other than that, I actually didn't speak a lot at all. Even though I knew someone was talking at me. You were focused on whatever you were doing instead. And then there's me, who's the opposite, where I was hyperverbal and I would just talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. Still do today. He is exhibit A on the podcast.

podcast here um I just talk and talk and talk so that's another misconception of autism that they're all mute and that i can't talk it's not true i'm one of the most hyperverbal people ever yeah i also have adhd yeah but i also think that i have a lot of um neural pathways constantly going off so i have so many thoughts that i want to get out of my brain um also another myth is that

Autistic people don't want friends or relationships. It's such a myth. I want friends. I yearn for connection, but I struggle in social situations. I say this to Ellie a lot. This has been the biggest struggle of my life is that I yearn for connection. but I struggle in social situations. So I feel like I'm in this no man's land of being really sad. Yeah. Of like wanting, I see, you know, groups of girls like going, having brunch together and you know, Oh my God. And I'm like, Oh, I wish.

I want that. But if I was actually in that situation, I'd be very stressed. I'd be overwhelmed by the fan, the bloody lights, like everything. And I would actually not enjoy it. So it's such a weird. hard place to be I've struggled with that my whole life and I'm with my friends I love them dearly but they'll attest to this that I'm like all in like I'll I won't see them or catch up with them for months on end yeah

And then I'll have this realization. I'm like, oh my God, I need to see my friends. I love my friends. And I'll be like, oh my God, catch up. And then I'm all in. And then I'll. disappear for another few months. Yes. Or you'll even organise that and then the day off go, I can't do it. I can't do it. But you want to do it. I do want to do it. It's such a mind F. And then I get very self-conscious because I'm a people pleaser as well. I get very self-conscious about.

My friends then thinking badly of me, not that they would because they're true friends, but like then going, I hope they don't think it's because I don't want to hang out with them. It's not that. Yeah. It's such a weird. It's so hard to communicate that. And I think we've both lost friendships because of that.

because we've probably been perceived to not keep in touch enough. And again, I love all my friends. Any friend listening to this who has been a friend of mine, I love you to the death. Me too. And I always will. But if I haven't kept in touch with you, it's really not conscious. Also with the ADHD, I think. that affects us too because the object permanence thing, like if we don't see a friend for ages, it's not that I don't think about them, but I kind of forget they exist.

In a nice way. No, yeah. It's not because I hate them and I don't like them anymore. It's like there's a double edged sword going on here where the object permanence is out of sight, out of mind. plus actually going to organize and see them is quite overwhelming for me. Yes. So it's really sad because a lot of autistic people do want friends and need friends. Yeah. But we had, we, we.

We can't, we don't communicate in the same ways. And I think this is a really interesting, they call it the double empathy problem where we get told by psychiatrists that autistic people don't know how to communicate and have social struggles and communication issues. But really.

Who's in the right here? We communicate with honesty, black and white thinking, and we get told that we might be a bit abrupt or a bit rude or a number of examples like that. Why is the neurotypical way the right way? They speak in...

codes and with small talk and like sayings and things that we need we don't understand the meaning and we also take things really literally too so if you tell us something we're going to actually believe that and we don't know if you're joking or not I got sorry to stop your flight but I used to get told that I was very gullible and I that sort of innocence side of me bless everyone but like at work at my job I used to work at it used to be like

I was the butt of the joke because I would believe people when they would say something and it would be like, yeah, I don't know how to explain it. People who are autistic get bullied like this because we're easy targets because we... We believe you. We expect that everyone thinks the same way we do.

And that we should trust everyone because I'm trustworthy. Yeah. And then we are the victim of bullying often. Yeah. I'm just like, why would I not believe someone when they tell me something? I'm like, oh, really? And it happened a lot. And no.

it's all good but it's just like it was very stressful for me very stressful and not knowing what was true and what was a joke and then it would be like nah just jokes and it's like oh you've just been taking all this emotional journey for what for a bit of a laugh out of them it's not yeah it happened to me too dreaming of getting the all new iphone 17 pro designed to be the most powerful iphone ever then stay in bed and let a boost mobile expert deliver and set it up for you

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And yes, this double empathy problem is a real issue where the... responsibility gets put on the autistic person you don't communicate properly you're too blunt when really it's just a neurodevelopmental condition it's a diversity in the brain so why have we made that one the standard

Why is ours not the standard? I know. We just need to be better at trying to communicate with each other. Yeah. And no one's in the wrong. Autistic person's not in the wrong. Your autistic person's not in the wrong. There's just different ways of communicating. Yeah. And we just, I think we need to really try as a society, sort that out and realize that autistic people are.

amazing but they just communicate differently and that's okay yeah yeah oh my god and small talk can actually suck it i hate the point oh my god i'd rather meet someone go hey what's your name cool i'm page hey what's like your biggest childhood trauma that we can like get into and like like cure yeah yeah what what's yeah what sets your soul on fire what are you passionate about and you know we're not like oh it's so boring it's so boring yeah but like

We want to have meaningful conversations is essentially what you're saying. We want things to matter and I want to know why about things and I need it in the deep. Need to know the why of things. Yeah. And I think that's why, again, we struggle with friends because I want to talk about real issues and then everyone.

else is um it's it's more surface level and this is not a shitting on anyone but it's true like I always felt like I didn't quite connect with people because I was almost thinking on a different level to them and not a higher level I'm not saying I'm better than anyone but I was processing a lot more and

This is another point of autism is we have often delayed emotional processing. And we've spoken about this before, but we might take... three days to three weeks to three months to process something and it's not because it's a lack of intelligence once again not a lack of intelligence if anything we have so much going on in our brain so many neural pathways happening that it takes us longer to process information

because we're processing more. And people think that we're dumb or slow, but it's not. We're actually processing so much more information than other people are at the same time. And then when you finally figure it, not figure it out, but like the rumination is intense. I mean, I'll speak from my experience. I ruminate and ruminate over the same thing and have literally conversations out loud to myself at home. Me too. And like.

in the shower and like i reenact a situation and say what i would have said if they had said that and then rebut them and it's actually that's like my life yeah me too i spend i said this to someone the other day i think i've realized i spend like

90 percent of my life in my brain like that sounds ridiculous because everyone's yeah everyone's in their brain because you are your you know but um not being I mean like not being present in the physical moment with who you're with I have spent a lot of my time In my brain, thinking, catastrophizing, ruminating. Oh, what? Like, yeah, anyway. No, exactly. Exactly. I'm the same. And that's why we also, I think, with the ADHD, we are inattentive.

We're not really there because we're actually just constantly in our brain all the time. And I used to, you know, you're daydreaming. I'd be daydreaming. But I was actually just like an intense thought and thinking about a number of different things all at once. So yeah, autistic people process things.

a lot more deeply and there's a lot more to process all at once. Hence why we have a meltdown because the executive function shits itself and it can't process it all at once and we feel a lot of pressure. to react instantly and we don't know how to. No. So sometimes we do need time away after a social situation to just decompress. I just, I mean, this is a personal story. Recently I went and visited my best friend in Canada and we went and had a beach day.

um and it was a huge big day in the sun for like six hours already that like my you know needs It was a lot. And I get home back to her place and I just have a full on meltdown. And I hate that because it was in front of people, but I had no energy left to mask anything. And she was like, what's wrong? And I was like, oh, I couldn't have the, I couldn't.

I couldn't speak. I could not speak, could not articulate it, could not anything. And I was just kind of having like a, not panic attack fully, but crying and just melting down. And now I look back and I was just, you know what? It was just a big day and it was.

overwhelming and it was very social there was so many different people i met that day it was hot i was probably dehydrated and it just i got home and i just felt so panicked yeah yeah i but i couldn't i couldn't describe i couldn't verbalize it yeah

Yeah, it was very stressful. It was stressful. And bless her, Brooke, she wanted to help. And she was like, well, talk to me. Love you. And I was like, just. Yeah. But now I since know that, know why. And I didn't know at the time. And I talked to her about that. Yeah.

So it's good having good friends who understand and love you for who you are help. And yeah, you don't always have to explain why you had a meltdown because sometimes you actually don't really know. I didn't know. Yeah, you can kind of like suspect it, but you just have one. It was just like a visceral.

full everything emotional body everything response to whatever it was that it was just all too much and it just yeah yeah I think it's your nervous system trying to actually probably just reset itself yeah because after that you kind of feel a bit better like you kind of yeah yeah yeah Definitely. Yeah. Autism is a real nervous system thing too. There's theories that it comes from having a sensitive amygdala, which is the fight or flight area.

And so therefore, when you just have way less emotional regulation and your nervous system is just a lot more sensitive and you do need to cry it out or you do need to have these meltdowns because that is your body just trying to reset itself and release all the yucky chemicals that are circling your brain.

Let them out. Let yourself melt down. It is so important. And if you're exhausted after social situations, it's not because you're bad at them. It's because there was so much to process. Most people who are neurotypical are sitting there just having this one conversation and they're focused on this one thing right now. Blah, blah, blah, blah.

But autistic people are lights, fans, noises, sweaty on the seat. Someone's close to me. I don't like people touching me. And even my personal space feels encroached on. Forcing eye contact for ages.

autistic people and ADHD people struggle with eye contact and often it's for me it's two things I think better and I'm better at putting my words together when i'm looking away because i'm almost like looking into my brain to try and get my point yeah and then the other thing is i find eye contact really visually intense like it's almost like an overstimulation visually of me looking into someone's eyes and i just no it does not feel comfortable

I don't actually look, I'm giving myself away here. I neither. But I almost like, it's almost like I'm looking into, like looking at them too much. And so you look away again. It's like this battle. I see memes about it, but it's so true. I'm just like, oh, too much.

yeah okay you should look back now and i she ended up not even looking in the eyes i'm like looking at like a bloody freckle on their face or like i'm looking at like their bloody nose hairs right now ellie same thanks um no yeah well thank you no same but i i'm often actually looking at their mouth because i've realized

that I realized this during COVID. I'm actually a lip reader and I didn't realize this and I think it's because a lot of people with ADHD and autism, I think, have auditory processing issues. So we actually struggle to hear things and process them. That's why listening can be quite hard for us. I realise that I'm actually lip-reading a lot of the time and that's how I'm...

getting the information. I'm not looking them in the eye. I'm looking at their mouth. I'm lip reading. And when we had COVID and we all had to wear masks, my communication during COVID, I was stressed. Oh, no, man. I also...

Same. I didn't realize how much I was lip reading until I couldn't lip read. Or like the combination of both having that was like so valuable. And like, I'll go to my doctor and I'll be like, what is she saying? Yeah. No, I couldn't focus. Yeah. And it takes me like three or four seconds to actually.

absorb yeah what someone has said and so sometimes I'll say pardon before like I'll say impulsively pardon and then they'll go to answer and I'll be like oh blah blah they're like didn't you just say pardon I'm like oh yeah sorry um you know No, exactly, exactly. I also with COVID, COVID was a big sign for me too that I was autistic. This is where I started thinking I could be because lockdowns in New Zealand, they were very intense. They were quite a long time and they were very hard on people.

And it was a really stressful time in history. And I'm not belittling people's experiences because some people's experiences in COVID were horrific. Insane, yeah. Insane. However, I just quietly... just quietly i quite enjoyed lockdown yeah this is where i started going hang on why am i why am i enjoying lockdown and it's because i realized there were no demands on me i could stay in my own environment so i had control over it

I didn't have to mask and go and see people. If people text me, I knew that I couldn't see them. So I didn't have to make up an excuse or I didn't have any, yeah, I didn't have any commitments. And I was so happy in lockdown. I actually started having really bad anxiety when it was not lockdown because I then came back into the demands. And it was when I came back into the demands that I really started noticing, I think I'm autistic. Yeah, no, agreed.

um yeah I realize um I had I got really really bad anxiety I always had anxiety but even my best friend noticed this I talked to her recently about it she's like yeah at about um 26 or whatever my anxiety got really bad and even she noticed a change in me and it probably was just like a combination of a lot of things but it was around the time of COVID and coming back to reality. I think a lot of people had that whole experience. People will realize that when you're a divergent.

after covid because it was such a weird time and yeah your demands were taken away and then i think people with adhd might have realized they had adhd because they were bored and not motivated oh yeah not able to get their work done if they still were working exactly because you had to work from home some people and yeah and that was a new experience

That was a really weird time. So weird. Yeah, I realized I was lip reading a lot and not actually listening and not looking them in the eye. Yeah. Another thing about autistic people is with ADHD, you have a lot of special interests, but often they are quick. And then they go. So you're like interested in something, hyper-focus, dopamine, dopamine, dopamine. I'm getting so much dopamine from this new subject that I love. And then it dies out and you're done.

Autism is more... That's been my whole life. Yeah, yeah. We've talked about your graveyard of Instagram pages. Oh, my God. I'm up at about 18. Yeah, that's great. Whereas autism mainly has... People with autism mainly have long-term special interests. So they might know, like... every single thing about one subject. And again, that comes back to the intense neural pathways that we have. We can get fascinated by a subject and we literally learn every single detail about it. And then we info dump.

Because that's how we communicate with people. We like to teach people stuff and tell them about stuff and then other people might think, oh, she's boring me again with her.

formula one chat but that's me actually trying to bond with someone yeah and i know all the stuff because i find it really interesting yeah and we get off on like a million tangents because every tangent is very relevant to the main story and it has another tangent oh my god that is so important if someone tries to stop there and go is that really you know i'm like no it is yeah and then i tell the punchline and they're like how was that and i'm like

It is. Just trust me. Go on the journey with me, please. Yeah, just let me. So, yes, intense special interests are often a huge clue that someone's autistic. And then there's the stimming, which we've talked about, which is a self-regulating behavior. And I think that's almost a stress response too. It's them trying to, autistic people trying to regulate ourselves.

Yeah, so we've got the stimming and the repetitive movements is often part of autism as well. And I think that's a self-regulatory thing. And I think maybe it becomes habits as well. That's how you calm yourself down. One of the biggest things... about autism versus neurotypical people is top-down versus bottom-up processing so neurotypical people generally when they walk into a room or they come into a new piece of information they will process that from the top

down they'll bring in knowledge they already have about it and fill the gaps in and so they don't really think too deeply about the restaurant they've just walked into for example it's like oh yeah there's a restaurant there's the menus there's where i'll sit blah blah blah oh my god autistic people

We process things bottom up. So we start with the sensory stuff. Oh, this is quite loud in here. Oh, it's quite bright in here. Blah, blah, blah, blah. So we're actually processing everything from the bottom. Then we work our way up. And this is another reason why.

We take longer to process things and also why autistic people often have such good attention to detail because we're actually processing everything all at once from the bottom. So we're kind of... the opposite of neurotypical people when we're processing things and that's why often there can be a clash there but neurotypical people are kind of processing and getting rid of all the bullshit they don't need to know whereas autistic people often

bottom up it's the baseline first how do I feel right now what am I sensing right now then that's why we look at the menu before we go to a restaurant sometimes because we just need to know that information first otherwise it's all too overwhelming I also always have to know the parking situation yep me too and like I mean, that might just be like kind of like a normal thing. But if it's like too overwhelming, that could be enough to make me not want to go. Yeah.

yeah exactly me too yeah but for me the stress in life for me is often logistics yeah logistics that's the thing all those little tasks and not knowing how hot it's going to be how cold it's going to be how loud it's going to be all that kind of stuff really stresses me out so with this

top-down and bottom-up processing. Autistic people often rely on that bottom-up processing and focus on details first before they see the bigger picture. Oh, yeah. You know what I mean? Like, we see all the detail and everyone's like, why are you looking at the detail? Like, Ellie, why are you worrying about that minor?

part of this thing we just need to do this and I'm like yeah but what have you thought about all these things though that are going to affect that thing I think I've got this happened to me the last couple of weeks it's a great example I guess

one of my really good friend's 30th birthdays was in Mount Maunganui. And like, I of course really wanted to go, like a hundred percent wanted to go. Um, and I think most people go, Oh yeah, cool. We'll leave this time on Friday and you know, go there, got our mattress suite. got our shit, let's go. I had the biggest meltdown on the Thursday or Friday before.

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Upfront payment of $45 for a three-month plan. $15 per month equivalent required. New customer offer first three months only. Then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See mintmobile.com. I was meant to go. Bless my friends. They were great. with me and they understood me and said they know how i work so they completely understood but it was because i sent a message explaining like

You know, I try to ask questions about the sleeping arrangements. Will there be like the amount of questions I had to make sure that if I went that all my needs were met because it was so scary and overwhelming for me that I ended up just having a meltdown over it.

I ended up not going. And that's really sad because I, of course, would love to go one of my best friend's 30th birthdays, but everything that came in and around that, I was, like you say, analyzing everything from the ground up. Yeah. And going, okay, so. three hours of travel so that means oh i can't even um verbally verbalize it but it was just every single detail that could possibly be linked to that whole thing was uh you're thinking about thinking about it how that was like

Ooh. It's so overwhelming. It's so overwhelming. It's so overwhelming. And also I will say, I noticed that this is a, tends to be a neurodivergent thing. I didn't realize it was until I obviously learned more about it. But when I go places, even to our cousin's house, like which is a 20 minute driveway, I will literally pack an entire backpack worth. everything I could possibly think that I might need while I'm there. Yeah. And I always do that. Yeah.

Same. And now I realise it's because I pack for every possible situation that I'm overwhelmed, so therefore I need my headphones, so therefore I need da-da-da-da. I've got my drawing pad because literally drawing soothes me and I'm an artist. And is that kind of it? No, it is. It is. You're processing everything all at once.

There's so many factors to take into account, but then a neurotypical person will be like, alright, jump in the car, we're off to Mount Manganui for the weekend, see ya! And it's like, no, no, no, because your sensory issues are actually a massive thing. And that's going to affect you, and the way you feel, and therefore your behaviour, and how you're going to act in those social situations.

and then people are watching you and perceiving you and it's just too much. Yeah, so that bottom-up versus top-down thinking is where a lot of the clashing happens and I often need to know why we're doing something in a workplace. Why? And someone might give me a task and I just can't do that.

that task until I know what the goal is why we're doing it how to do it and I think people find autistic people um we get known to be like annoying because we're questioning everything but it's not because we don't trust you it's just we need to know all the information first yeah um so with that top down bottom up thing with sensory perception for example a neurotypical person

can just filter out the background noise and focus on the conversation. But an autistic person notices every sound, texture, light and everything. So they're unable to focus on that conversation. Then there's social interaction. When we're talking to people, neurotypical people use top-down processing.

past experiences and then they fill in the gaps like if there's if they need to read between the lines in conversation they can do that whereas we're focusing on the exact words and what they're saying in that moment rather than the implied meaning and so therefore we're gullible or

We take someone, we trust someone because we just take what they're saying at face value when maybe there was a bit of sarcasm there and we don't realize it. Problem solving. Neurotypical people would use general rules and intuition to make a quick decision.

Whereas we would sit there and analyze every piece of information. Even if we've seen this puzzle before, we'd still analyze all of it before we make that decision. And then lastly, like creativity and learning. We can, neurotypical people can see. patterns and make connections quite quickly whereas we would notice unique details that others might miss we're just processing everything on a real deep level constantly and that's why we get overwhelmed as someone with autism

I feel like nothing's straightforward in my mind. Like, for example, the other day, I'm a designer and there's obviously Adobe Illustrator and Adobe Photoshop. And my boss, bless Christy, you're the man. you're the woman um the boss woman um she goes page um illustrator or photoshop and so most people can just like fire off you know you know and i was like well under what circumstances like

In what context? No, exactly. It's like, I don't know. Well, if I'm making this type of piece of design, then da-da-da-da-da-da. But I think most people would just answer the question based on their favorite. app that they like to use i think that i think that was the point of the question in hindsight yeah like it was like what do you prefer like what's your fave and i was and then it's for me it's like well

well, they don't really have a favour. It just depends what I'm using it, what I'm doing it for. Exactly. This is also what happens, I think, when people get screened for autism. One of the clues, I think, is if the person is asking questions like that during the assessment, it often can mean they're autistic.

There's a question that comes up in autism screening tests, which is, would you rather go to the library or go to a party? That is so complex to me. I'm like, wait, wait, wait. So is it a Saturday night? Yeah.

Who's there? Who's there? Is there music? Am I at the library using a book that I'm enjoying or am I just sitting in the corner? So I would question this one question, which is meant to be... yes or no or one or the other it really depends and this is why I think screening for autism is really complex because we think about everything on 20 different neural pathways just based on one simple question and I think that's often one of the biggest clues for screeners when psychologists are

talking to people and trying to work out the autistic, if the response is, yeah, but what context is this? And what have I been doing the day before? Then that's quite a clue that they could have autism. You know, as we said, I recently got screened and that was me. So hang on, wait.

wind and shit yeah it's so funny yeah we just have very complex um brains and neural pathways and the pruning is not as intense as a neurotypical person but it is you are born with it it's a neurodevelopmental difference and it's again the way your brain's wired and i think that again

autism has a place in society and i think a lot of the most successful people in the world um are autistic like eminem you know he's got an intense focus on words and lyrics and he just writes stuff down and he's become one of the best rappers of all time. That's his special interest is like words and like rhymes and stuff. Exactly. But then he dropped, he failed.

like one of his school grades like three times because his intelligence is really intense here but then over here he doesn't have the same intelligence this is the other anomaly about autistic people is often we have huge intelligence in one area and then really none in the other. And it's, again, very confusing to live with, especially if you don't know. So that's kind of, again, very broad summary of autism. And we can go into different factors about autism in other episodes, as we always say.

If you have any other questions, let us know on social media. Submit us a question in our link tree. We've got a Google form there if you want to know more. But that's kind of a very vague approach to what autism is and our experiences.

Just bear in mind that, yeah, we're two white women who are quite privileged and wear high maskers and our experience is completely different to anyone else's. Yeah, we're coming from our lens, obviously. Only a person comes from their own lens. We're coming from our own lens, so if that doesn't resonate with you, then that's...

totally fine and um exactly sorry we can't um represent everyone i wish we could but that's just not how it works so i hope at least some people relate to us um yeah i hope so too and just remember that these stereotypes that you know like rain man or someone who doesn't talk and is bad with friends that is not autism it might be one manifestation of it it can be a manifestation

But even if you're good with people, I was good with people and I am good with people and I'd fooled myself into thinking, I'm so great with people. I can't be autistic. No, no. I just taught myself how to be good with people. Yeah. And I've taught myself how to do small talk. I enjoy it, but I know how to do it. From the day you was born, from the day you were born almost, or from the day you could speak.

You were mimicking mum and dad and therefore you got reinforced by, oh, you're so good with Ellie. So good with people, Ellie. Yeah. At like two years old and kids become what they are told. Yeah. So I then lived up to that. Yeah. She lived up to that.

And then ended up really exhausted. Because at the end of the day, I realized, oh my gosh, people actually exhaust me. Even though I'm good at it, I don't actually always enjoy it. And it actually is at the cost of me and my mental health. Yeah. And obviously we can see that for what it is now. But at the time, obviously, like back.

30 years jesus you old fuck um yeah the um yeah shit i'm 30 yeah they um even the research like the research back then what am i saying it's just I'm just saying that we're saying this now in hindsight with 32 years on that, obviously our parents like, yeah, you appeared to be. absolutely fine absolutely great with um people so therefore why wouldn't they like praise you because our parents were very

They praise us a lot, which is great. And so where the frick was I going with that? Who knows? I don't know. But, hey, that's what it's all about is just starting to talk and then seeing where it takes us. Thanks for listening. Let us know if you want us to talk about anything else. And next week we will start diving into the combo of ADHD, the differences in autism and ADHD and how that neurotype, autism and ADHD look completely different.

to just the single ones. So again, we're coming up from another lens. We're not just autistic and we're not just ADHD. Yeah. And the contradictions of it. Yeah. It's crazy. It's crazy. So we'll chat about that next week. That is crazy. Thank you. See you later. See you later. Give us a rating. Give us a rating. And follow us on social media. Please. Please. Sorry. Sorry. Love you. Bye. and I've got a Boost Mobile gift just for you. Aw, for me, Anna? Yes, Anna, you deserve a gift.

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