E12 | How do I know if I'm masking, and how do I stop?

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Hello and welcome back to WTF's Audie HD with late diagnosed sisters Ellie and Paige. We were diagnosed late and we're here to educate. Yeah. Maybe we need to do like a song for that. Yeah. It changes every time. Thanks for tuning in again. Last week we chatted about what masking was at a very surface level and on today's app we're going to be talking more about how to identify if you are masking and then start trying to give some advice on how to unmask. Which is...

It's a work in progress. I don't think we really have. Yeah, look, it's a work in progress. We definitely have some stuff that might help you, but I'm going to say right now this is not going to solve your entire issue this one episode because it still hasn't actually solved our life. No, it's like a reaction. Yeah. It's like sneezing. Yeah, masking is. It's really hard to not.

Exactly. Masking is primal and it's a survival instinct and it's a reflex for me. And yeah, exactly right. So it's pretty tough. But I can see you've got clothes on, which is great, Paige, because what were you saying just before we started recording? High five, Ruby. Sorry, Ruby's so cute. The dog, in case you guys didn't know. I was saying I...

How long did I flap around for, Ali, before we started? You were sitting here for about half an hour. Yep. Waiting for me. And I was trying to figure out what top to wear because nothing was appeasing me. And so I was like, you know what?

I want to go topless and just put like a censored bar over my titties. In post-production. Just like, who cares? And also, it'll be so much more comfortable. I would go completely naked if I could. Oh, so would I. I hate clothes. Clothing is such a, like... first world problem stress that I have like I know I'm privileged to have clothes but like I wish we didn't wear them as a society I know because they're so uncomfortable but let's like do what like

Tribes do. Yeah, the indigenous tribes that are on the Amazon, they don't have clothes really. No, they're doing it right. I agree. So put a petition in the... comments on social, do you want Paige to not wear a top next time? Because I will happily do that and my overstimulation will thank me for it. Exactly. Exactly. Hey, all right. Well, let's jump into the bulk of the FA.

Now, masking, as we discussed last week, it's basically a survival mechanism to try and fit into society that you don't fully feel like you're a part of or you realize subconsciously very young that your behaviors are not being taken away. by others around you and so you start changing the way you

So it's often also called camouflaging, which is attempting to hide obscure autistic traits in order to blend in with neurotypicals. And the main goal of that is to basically go without detection and then also compensation. is basically where you overcompensate for your deficits in quotation marks because who actually defines what deficits are? Oh, it's the neurotypical doctors that did back in the bloody 20s. The bloody bloody.

Bloody, bloody. Compensation is how you kind of overcompensate. So you might try and display more smart than you actually are or more okay with something than you actually are to really ensure that no one thinks you're weird. Weird in quotation marks. Yeah, exactly. So we both mask and we only figured that out as we discussed last episode in our late 20s.

but I always knew subconsciously there was something off there. I knew that I wasn't being my true self and I could never work out why it was all subconscious. And. First off, we'll just come in and say that unmasking is a huge, long-winded process that can take years.

And often you might find that when you realize you're autistic and then you're masking or ADHD, because ADHD is mask as well. They're just ADHD behavior can sometimes appear more socially acceptable. It's more seen as like a quirky little thing we have.

though it's not it's it's debilitating but um both all neurodivergent people mask to an extent um but we I'm going to try and help here in this episode identify how you might realize that you are masking and try and find your why so that you can try and start dismantling it. it does mean that sometimes you go backwards before you go forwards. So it can kind of debilitate you first. You can kind of retract and have skill regression.

where once you realize you're autistic and masking you your skills regress and you might find things really hard that you used to find easy because you were going through it with adrenaline and cortisol was pushing you through whereas now we're like you you're aware of the fact that you're asking and so you're too aware of it and so you know what you're

I don't know. It's a mind fuck. It's exactly it. Like, you know what you're doing. You're now aware of it. And so you find it harder to do it. It's more exhausting. Yeah. And you realize you're actually being inauthentic to yourself. Yeah. Which is also a hard thing, especially when you're autistic. And in ADHD, we have such a...

strong sense of justice and right and wrong. So once you realize that sometimes you're trying to appease people and fit in and maybe agree with people when you don't actually agree deep down once you realize you're doing that it becomes a real moral dilemma in your brain because you're like i don't believe in this why why am i

agreeing with them in that moment why did i do that and so yeah that's why it becomes so much harder yeah yeah exhausting it is exhausting whereas when you got no choice you don't know that you just think when you're masking and you don't know you are

You just think that that's just what life is and that's what everyone else must be feeling. That's what I thought. I thought that everyone else was feeling that in social situations. Me too. That's why I never understood like people hanging out and like, I'm, I always would say to you like, sure. Like I actually enjoying that. Yeah.

They're not. They're all just pretending. Yeah. Like what? And then now I've realized I'm like, no, I think they do enjoy or, you know, and I am just masking because I don't actually enjoy a lot.

Outside of my house. Exactly, exactly. Yeah, so it is hard because we're so scared of being rejected. We've been rejected quite subtly our whole life for certain behaviours. So the thought of... of unmasking and just opening up to rejection you cannot do that overnight and it is such a weird feeling because it's the feeling we've avoided our entire life to then just suddenly go oh well it's the feeling we've it's the It's the feeling we felt that caused that coping mechanism to...

be born in the first place that's pretty much what you just said but it's like a different way of saying it exactly yeah no exactly that that's so that's why it's so hard to just all of a sudden go i'm gonna stop unmasking i'm just gonna

Hear people say, no, I'm going to be rejected and let's go. That sounds like fun. We've spent 30 years trying to avoid that. So first of all, real hard, real hard to unmask, especially when you also, the other thing I find really hard about unmasking is I've put this.

facade up my whole life not a fake facade just you know I've just presented differently to the world to what I am behind closed doors you've put everyone's needs before your own yeah so for me to now all of a sudden have my needs met or ask for them to be met

I'm now worried that people are going to go, geez, what happened to Ellie? She used to be chill. Now she's not chill. She's real intense and needy. I'm worried about that perception too. So I am also scared of it. I don't want... people to think that i've changed because really i haven't changed i'm now finally doing what i want to do yeah um which is just a and even that's confusing because you're still questioning is this what i want to do

Because you still don't know. It's so hard to dismantle. And you've been, I think, conditioned because at times maybe where you have slightly dropped your mask, people will be like, are you okay? Yeah. Oh, my God, are you? And like they're worried and it's like, I'm fine. And so people have that reaction. So you go, okay, well, I can't drop that mask. I need to just keep looking like I'm yummy guys.

Because the fear of being perceived is a massive one, especially for autism. So if all of a sudden I'm drawing attention to myself because I'm no longer looking out for everyone and only looking out for myself, them asking me if I'm okay is my worst nightmare. I don't want people to...

ask me that and so then I will just continue to mask because it's easier for me to pretend I'm okay than admit that I'm not and then have like all eyes on you yeah and then yeah yucky yucky yucky yeah I'm fine oh my god yeah yeah take the shirt off my back yeah

That's fine. So I guess we'll start by – The first thing you need to do when you're trying to unmask is identify which situations you're masking in the most. So whether it's like social situations or it might be in a workplace. For us, it's everywhere. Or particular people. Yep. That's a really good point. Like it might just be.

certain people that make you feel a bit uncomfortable but you don't realize but you never quite feel rested with them or at ease um so identifying first of all are there friendships where you're not your authentic self that you're serving more for them than they are serving for you um again So hard to dismantle when you've...

had this friend for 20 years and thought that it was just the way the friendship was. Because you've essentially, from masking, trained the algorithm and them to know who you are and so you all of a sudden change, it could cause a rift. Exactly. You kind of have to be ready to lose friends sometimes.

And be okay with chopping people off that actually you realize are not serving you. Even if they're not horrible people, it almost makes it worse because they're not horrible people. They're not servicing your needs because you haven't allowed them to. And then maybe change the dynamic of that friendship.

Yeah, I've definitely, like, since finding out I'm neurodivergent and social situations stress me out. I wouldn't say I've, like, lost friends, like, dramatically, but I definitely don't. I feel that people. some friends have like stopped making an effort which is totally fair because some friends need like constant you know the ones that have stuck around that i just love like

I will fall off the face of the earth for three months and then I'll come back and be like, oh, my God, and they'll just be like, arms wide open, like nothing else, nothing happened. Yep. And those people? Generally, neurodivergent as well. Yeah, true, actually. I've realised that a lot of my, like, true, true...

deep down friends that I'm comfortable around are neurodivergent. I'm like, oh, that's why. It's like an unspoken understanding. It's like another language with not speaking. It's like, I don't know. It's just like an intuition almost. You just, I don't know. Yeah. Probably sound crazy, but.

Nah, I feel more at ease with people for some reason that are like us. I guess that's like human nature almost, isn't it? Exactly. But even those friends were diagnosed after me and it's been me that said to them, hey, do you want to go get checked? And then they come back with a diagnosis and I'm like, ah, that's why we get along so well. Okay. Nah, for sure. Yeah. So the first thing you need to do is one, I'm taking a lot of –

my knowledge here in terms of unmasking from the book by devon price called unmasking autism this book as i mentioned last week some autistic some people in the autistic community don't enjoy this book some people do for me i thought it was really helpful because it's more about the um camouflaging yeah and high functioning autistics which is not a good term either but it's more about the people who have gone under the radar their whole life so that's why I related to it

But the stuff I'm drawing from this book today is predominantly just about unmasking and masking. It's not about autism itself. You may find that half the book you find good and other parts you don't. But I'm taking from Devin Price's book. Now, they've put this activity together.

Where you basically have to try and recall a time where you felt extreme embarrassment or shame. So like think back to your childhood or any time ago, was there a moment that you felt really embarrassed or shameful? How many examples you want? Exactly. Exactly.

Then you try and recall the experience and write down what emotions you feel, which again can be really hard because traditionally autistic people have trouble identifying their emotions, which is called alexithemia. And then they've actually put... a table in this book where you can tick.

emotions off that they've listed so it's easier for you so complete the sentence by checking off as many of these adjectives as you like in that moment everyone could see that i was either selfish awkward childish self-absorbed cold stupid weak robotic immature there's a whole list And then you pick the most painful of those words to you. So you go, which ones have I ticked? Oh, that's the most painful. So for me.

It's usually my biggest one, I think for me, is embarrassment and humiliation. That's like my biggest fear, I guess. Can you say it again slowly? People might want to do this. Yeah, selfish, awkward, childish, self-absorbed, cold, stupid. weak robotic immature disgusting embarrassing clueless cruel pathetic what was the second one

Awkward. So that's your one. Yeah. So you, in that moment, everyone could see that you were awkward. And for me, it might be that I'm embarrassed. And that's why I always try and overcompensate and I try and. mock myself before others can mock me self-deprecation is that the word yeah that's the one um so then you work out what is the what is the main emotional adjective that you don't like people seeing you as and when you've tried to identify that emotion you can start

identifying where that happens in your life and then you might even identify that oh that friend in particular always makes me feel like I'm embarrassed you might go oh that friend's not serving me they're making me feel that feeling I don't like so that's one of the first kind of activities you can do and then the next question is um i pretend to be what so that people will tolerate me and

But deep down, I know that I'm not. So stuff like, do you pretend to be independent, cool, generous, mature, warm, impressive, helpful? For me, it's probably helpful. I'm always trying to add value to their life so that they get something out of it. And I feel needed or wanted or...

valuable, I guess, is definitely my one. Happy, confident, caring, organized, smart, powerful, worthy. So you might try and come across as you're more organized than you really are because that's an attractive... Can you say them again? Cool, generous, mature, warm, impressive, helpful, confident, caring, organized, smart, powerful, worthy, happy or independent.

then you end up getting to this point where you go, I want, if I want people to like me, I can't let them find out that I am embarrassed or I am this, or I am, if you're feeling, it's really hard because it's all subconscious. But if you start really writing this stuff down and like trying to identify it, this is where you can start and like start realizing, oh, I am changing my actual behavior.

to avoid embarrassment or to make someone else feel better so that I'm not looking like a weirdo or so they like me. That's kind of the first step to unmasking is trying to identify in those moments. Mine's probably caring or generous. Yeah.

I'd agree with that. To feel valuable. Yeah, I'd agree with that. We're really revealing ourselves here, but I think it's important. It is important. I think us being real and raw is hopefully going to help others because we've never really even admitted this stuff out loud to each other. We're doing this in real time.

yeah um but it's super important if you need if you want to start finding the core of your masking issue then you need to go this deep um yeah it's funny i i mean not that it's all personal but just like the generous thing uh we're talking about this the other day i like do things for people and then someone goes to do something that's like a quarter of maybe what you've done what i've done for them and i'm like oh

oh my god no i could oh my god no no what do you mean you're gonna make me a milkshake what i'm now in debt to you oh my god that's crazy and then i just like can't accept it i struggle accepting stuff like that so do i yeah yeah me too even though man you give so much to others um yeah um the other the next thing the next step to like identifying why you might be masking and again i'm taking from devon price's book is you might find that growing up there were certain behaviors or emotions

that you were subconsciously taught were bad emotions or not acceptable by others. So for example, it might be, I was taught it was bad to be arrogant. So I had to pretend to be humble. So some examples of that behavior might be pretending I didn't know the answers to questions to try and make others feel like they're smart. Paige and I often do that. We do that so much. And I don't even mean to. I don't mean to. But I want to give them their moment. Their moment. Yeah, you're right.

Oh, wow. That's interesting. I didn't think about that. Yeah, I did. Because I'm scared of looking like a know-it-all or like them going, oh, she knows everything or like, oh, she always has an answer for everything. Like that's, I never want to look arrogant. So I actually overcompensate and then I look way too humble. That's even coming down to like not valuing my own work, not acknowledging.

when I achieve something moving on really quickly um and it's only others that go Ellie you've just done something really cool and I go oh yeah but I need to sit with those moments better but I'm too scared to um Here's how to stay alive longer so you can enjoy Boost Mobile's unlimited plan with a price that never goes up. Do not mistake a wasp nest for a piñata.

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another thing about you know not wanting to be arrogant and so trying to look humble is like keeping silent when people said say things that aren't true so sometimes i'll do this and then my integrity gets really

munted in my brain because I'm like I don't agree with that but I don't want to look like a dick so I'm just not going to say anything and you're scared for people not like you well that's me anyway exactly so then you just compromise your values and compromise your integrity and it's all in your brain because you get all pissed off

it yourself yeah yeah exactly um or softening statements with phrases like if that makes sense or if you don't mind but no worries if not oh my god but i don't know i don't really know if i can anything i don't know anything when i actually do know the answer yeah and i'm still going oh

Maybe not. And everything that you ever say, Ali, always comes to fruition in every aspect of everything. Yeah, no, I do notice patterns of behavior. Patterns and behaviors that you predict and then you go, oh, I don't know that. And literally like two months later. It happens. It happens. Yeah. And it's really hard. It's really hard. But you still don't trust yourself because you don't actually, you're almost just going off like an intuition. That's the thing. And also.

Who's going to believe me anyway? I know, until it happens. It's risking me looking like a dick or being judgmental, say, ahead of time. And then stuff happens and I'm like, oh, I didn't say anything. Or you did and you got.

Yeah, or that. Or sometimes I do try and say something and then nothing. And you get shot down. Because, again, it's my lack of confidence in my delivery. If I just went, hey, this is going to happen if you do this, they might listen to me. Yeah. But I go, oh, maybe. I'm just thinking.

Like maybe this might not work and you might need to do this. But I don't know though. And so like, is anyone going to have confidence in that? No, probably not. Another example is I definitely was taught this subconsciously. I was taught it was. bad to be annoying and loud so instead i pretended to be agreeable and quiet yeah so i'm actually quite loud what was i then what do you mean well i'm way louder than you yeah well you are but like you've also become agreeable and quiet

yeah you know like especially in society like you oh yeah you really calm down and like you really yeah at home maybe not but like um yeah there's that one so i i knew i was always scared of people saying i was loud and annoying because i heard other people bitch about other people doing that

So I'd pick up on it and go, oh, they don't like them because they're too much, they're too loud. So I would dim my light to make sure that I never came across annoying. And so I looked warm and I looked friendly and I was agreeable and I was quiet. So things like only experiencing.

big emotions in private not sharing how i actually feel um solving problems by myself this is classic me i i don't go for help and then someone might pull me out and go do you need help every now and then very rare and i'm like it's only a small handful of people that do that and i could name them yeah me too and then i'm like oh yeah i'm not oh yeah sometimes i need my friend to identify that i'm not um or not getting too excited about anything including good things because you're just like

oh no just just leave it just be agreeable just be quiet just like don't show any again arrogance or excitement because it might get shot down later all that kind of stuff um another one is like you might think that you might have been taught childish being childish was not cool So then you try and be mature. So for me, this is like serving as a confidant for adults and authority figures. I would like.

know how to get the authority figure to like me and they would even sometimes confide in me. And then also you had a younger sister who I don't think must or like I feel like. What am I trying to say? I feel like you took on like a parent role for me. Yeah, I did a little bit. At times. Is that kind of what you're saying? No, not really. Am I lost? Well, I mean, I did do that. But I think that was also a byproduct of our household. Like just, yeah, being the older sister, I would be.

your protector in a way and it maybe grew me up maybe quicker than you would have it's like the older sister syndrome what do you call it older sibling yeah especially older sister syndrome is quite we often end up as older sisters looking after your siblings beneath you and i think it's important Younger than you. I think it's imposed as well because it's like... Yeah.

But then the oldest boy often doesn't get that same responsibility on them. If there's a dynamic where there's an older boy, they don't get the same expectation that a girl might. I agree. It's so interesting. Yeah. Another thing for me is like. I was taught that it was bad to be sensitive. And so then I have to appear strong.

So this is a big one for me. I'm highly sensitive. Yeah, you're not strong. No, you are. But I'm not. But then I appear I am. Like I appear out loud like I am. And I appear in the workplace like, yeah, I'm really strong and confident and nothing bothers me. So that means I...

don't voice my needs i feel ashamed when i do want to cry express anger i don't actually do it um or i fight internally with like a disruptive emotion i feel and so people think i'm really strong and then often people will think i'm a good sport and then like

Not bully me, but like mock me and have fun. Same. And then eventually that really knocks us down. I've been the butt of the joke too many times to count. Exactly. And I sometimes don't even know if they're serious. Like I feel like sometimes I don't realize people are being sarcastic. Yeah.

Which makes it worse because it's like, oh, you believe that. Yeah, you're stupid. What do you expect? Like you tell me something, I'm going to believe you. Exactly. I'm a trusting person. Exactly. I only want genuineness.

That's not a word. Yeah, genuinity? Wait. No, it's not a word either. I always get caught up on that. What is the word for that? I don't know. Genuine people around me? I want people to be genuine. I don't know. Bloody hell. So, yeah, if you do want to hear more about this, definitely get.

unmasking autism by devon price i'm not going to go through all of them because that would be actually quite boring but the the purpose of that activity is to try and start realizing what behaviors was i taught as a young kid that were bad and have i compensated for that with a different

expression out outwardly um so that's where you start there um also maybe look out for behaviors and things that you're doing that are helping to prop up the mask so for example for me substance abuse in the form of cannabis or alcohol for page

In the form of being able to be more confident and... A box of DBs on the weekend. Yeah, mate. 20 to meself. Yeah, mate. Because the other thing that that does is it dulls your sensory overload sometimes. Like sometimes cannabis can make it louder. But yeah, alcohol numbs you. So you're sensitive.

to noise and like other things. Just dealing with life and struggles, they go away. Until the next morning. Exactly. It's just like getting, yeah, you're basically just borrowing off tomorrow. Yeah. But, you know, liquid courage for...

talking to people um it can relax you blah blah blah so one of those one of the signs that you could be masking is maybe you have a substance issue it can also just be because you're neurodivergent it doesn't necessarily align with masking but it can be because you're masking i think for me I was smoking cannabis because I was a neurodivergent brain that was busy but I also think I was coming home each day from work really really stressed and stressed out and exhausted from pretending or like

masking that I would then use cannabis to relax yeah so if you're and then binge eat and then binge eat this is the next one I was going to say the next sign that you could be masking is you might have eating disorders or disordered eating so that might be like Either you might have anorexia or bulimia or you might be a binge eater where you don't eat, don't eat, and then at night you just binge. That was me. You might also have – basically it's where you find comfort in food.

Or you control your intake by not eating food because you're stressed all the time from maybe being neurodivergent, but also maybe you're just masking as well. Well, when I went traveling to Europe, I don't know if I said this, but.

I barely ate and I lost weight. I was so skinny because I was stressed the whole time. Yeah, it's so sad. It's so sad. But yeah, that's disordered eating too. Your cortisol and your adrenaline is just... high so you don't feel hungry that's the thing i didn't feel hungry it's not that i was going oh i can't eat i don't want to eat it wasn't conscious i just was like i wasn't meeting that need because i was just like high on cortisol yeah

Yeah, exactly. Another thing is that you might be detached or dissociate a lot. So you might prevent rejection by disengaging first. So like you'll just predict you're going to be rejected. So you just withdraw before they can. Yeah. Or you might like just blunt painful emotions, like just trying some of them down and not put value on them. Yeah. It might be. Because I feel very deeply.

Yeah. And then I. get scared so i so you just detach detach them yeah exactly right um you also might another way that you might be masking is by sticking sticking to like rigid rules and belief systems so you might be like um You might be like putting in...

things into your day that are rigid and structured so that you feel like you're in control of everything so you can control your environment and this can help with like making your confusing reality just feel a bit more in control like you've got some control over something It's...

It also preserves your limited energy. So you always know what to expect because you've created this like system in your life. Another one is fawning and compulsive people pleasing. Now this is a big one for us. This is where I knew that I was masking because this is probably the biggest. expression of it for me think about each of these statements and reflect on how true each one is for you so one I don't feel like anyone knows the real me if you feel that

you're probably masking. That's definitely me. Number two, you don't know how to say no to people. Me, you, our boundaries are just not there. we let everyone walk all over us. Um, but it's not conscious. It's so hard. When I'm faced with something, someone's like, can you do this? I, yeah, it's like, Oh, you can always ask me. And then I'm like,

Why did I do that? Why did I do that? I don't want to do that. I don't have the capacity for that. Because also I think in the moment being especially autistic, you don't know what you feel in the moment. And so like you just kind of like go with it in the moment because it's a survival thing. It's like the easiest.

route right now is to say yes yeah get me out of this and then later it affects you so if you're not knowing how to say no to people you're possibly masking again all of these things here you might be masking from trauma it doesn't necessarily come down to just autism ADHD, OCD. It could be trauma. It could be your upbringing. It's not, this is not strictly for neurodivergence, but generally.

Neurodivergent people are masking. It's a huge thing. So yes, this is a generic conversation, but it's very highly correlated with autism, ADHD and any other neurodivergence. I'm trying to fit into a world that's not really built.

Exactly. You feel responsible for managing other people's feelings and reactions, even if they don't involve you. So that's me. I'll notice that someone is like not feeling comfortable in a room and I will just immediately try and subside that or try and make them feel better or.

I'm always trying to control the room, which is just not my issue, but it makes me feel safer, which is stupid. I feel like I'm betraying myself by going along with things I don't agree with, which sometimes happens to me. We do a really strong moral...

ground so most of the time i'll try and avoid something if i didn't agree with it i'd just avoid completely but sometimes there's moments where i don't agree with something and i i just sit there in silence this is the thing i'll never agree necessarily i won't go yeah i agree i just won't agree at all But I won't disagree. So I'll just leave it as like I'm just in the middle. But people take your silence as agreeing. And then you maybe go.

to someone else going yeah and i don't agree with that and they go oh ali's two-faced like no i never agreed with you i just let you say your feelings i let you speak your truth and you know what everyone's story is valid in some respect exactly i get that so much the amount of

I've been in where I'm just letting people talk to me about their issues and they take that like I'm siding with someone I'm not I'm just letting you because I'm friends with you and I'm friends with them I'm letting you have your moment and people would say I'm just like no just a good confidant is that the word yeah like for my friends yeah this is a good lesson for anyone even if you're a divergent or neurotypical if someone is quiet in a group setting or situation

please dig deeper and see if they have something to say because some people aren't confident to say how they feel, especially autistic people in a group setting. If you notice someone sitting there and not agreeing or not disagreeing, they do have an opinion, but they don't know how to say it. And I get really frustrated and work.

sometimes where you've got most of the room having this conversation and one or two people not say anything and the people in this area never make an effort to ask never think to go hey what do you two think no they just oh they're fine Exactly. Very annoying. And then also another thing is, is that you might closely monitor social situations to see when conflict is brewing.

So that's me as well. I can sense it a mile away and I hate it. Me too. So if you felt like you agreed with any of that, you may be fawning and people pleasing, which is a form of masking and it can come from neurodivergence or it can come from just trauma, which is they're both the same thing in a way because being neurodivergent. is traumatizing. Eventually it becomes, yeah, living a life, masking from two years old.

Exactly. Causes a bit of childhood trauma, I think. No, it does. And this is why when we talk about autistical ADHD traits and it might be a social video and people go, that's not just exclusive to ADHD and autism, that's trauma. It's like, yeah, I know because we're traumatized. so yeah maybe we need to be better at explaining what the difference is but a lot of the time the behaviors we're expressing is not just about the autism or adhd it's about the trauma we've now developed because

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of those things yeah and it's huge with people who are neurodivergent I think every neurodivergent person is traumatized yeah full stop you've been ridiculed in some way you've been you've felt ostracized you've felt like you don't fit in you feel You feel weird quotation marks. You feel like, and because I guess we are more sensitive, like our nervous system and everything, hence why I think I literally developed tics.

yeah it's like it's my nervous system like not regulating itself and trying to like regulate itself in a way because yeah i'm not able to really exactly um yeah i people develop things yeah and You have trauma from it. Exactly right. Exactly right. Another way like we need to start trying to reframe like the autistic stereotypes that we have. So we were talking before about like that.

arrogant thing not wanting to be arrogant so we we're humble another way to look at it is you're actually you're not arrogant but you're confident you're independent and then you might want to this is an extension of that first activity is instead of looking at the negative emotion or behavior which is arrogance try and reframe it to something like

I'm confident and that helps me stand up for what's right. I'm principled and I'm often the first person to speak out about a problem. So try and look at your behaviors. as positive again really hard when the society's told you that's wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong um but we need to reframe these autistic stereotypes things like arrogant cold unfeeling annoying and loud childish they're all stereotypes that society have put on autistic people

when really they could be reframed. And we're actually great people who do stand up for what is right and help others who are less fortunate than us. Yeah. We're enthusiastic about stuff. We're not annoying and loud. We're just passionate. Unpassionate. Exactly. So really starting to like reframe and look deeper about what these behaviors that you were taught or emotions you were taught were bad. What is another way you could look at them is another great way to.

try and unmask how have you unmasked Paige at all if at all in the last few years um this is a tough one because I have unmasked more recently but i will disclose that is that the word yeah i will disclose that

I think that that has been a result of being treated for my PMDD with the fluox team. We talked about this in a few episodes ago. I think because that helps my... ocd tendencies your overthinking my overthinking in a moment when someone asks me point blank a question i'm not thinking of every possible negative outcome that could possibly come from this it kind of

helps my ocd symptoms okay again i'm not diagnosed with ocd but when i saw my psychiatrist she said you're not severe enough to be diagnosed but you do have traits of it so um yeah so i find that that medication helps the depression and anxiety from my PMDD, but also the overthinking. So when I'm in social situations, I'm actually better now at being like stopping for a second and going.

know how i feel about that no i i don't know i think this um so i will say i have unmasked a bit as a result of that but prior to going on that When I had just been diagnosed with ADHD and realized what masking was, I don't think I still, I still masked. I still mask in social situations. But the thing that I have changed is that I just don't.

put myself in uncomfortable situations as much yeah so this is the thing we've probably both just isolated ourselves yeah which is not good we're not saying that's the right um route to take but it's definitely been our first instinct is to just withdraw so I won't say yes as much to going out or I will just keep to myself more and come back to my home and who I want who I am and what I want and I realize I like hanging out with my cats now my dog um

but we think we're both both of us have kind of unmasked in private first and I think you kind of have to do that first you have to basically get to know yourself because you can't unmask until you know who you are which most of us who are masking

Don't know who we are. Yeah. Because we've pretended we're someone we're not our whole life. So the first thing is coming back to yourself. And I think me and you have started with withdrawing. Yeah. And coming back to ourselves, which is not, it's not a bad thing long, short term. But I think long term, that's bad. I think now I've started to do more social things, as you know, in the last few weeks, really. And again, I think this.

this medication I'm on for PMDD and OCD is a huge part to thank for that. So it's probably not the right, it's probably not true to the ADHD experience. Wait. Does that make sense? Like it's not. Yeah. You do have another factor. I'm speaking from a different lens now, but I have been socializing more and it's, I have been setting in boundaries.

way better with people haven't i better i feel better and people respect it and um no one has not respected it yet so take that as a sign because i was always so terrified of setting any boundaries and i've learned that it's only been met with kindness and people don't necessarily understand but they respect it. And to be honest, I'm at the point now where I'm able to reconcile my brain and go,

well, if they don't, if they take this boundary as an offense, if they take this as an issue, then I don't really want to have you in my life anyway. Exactly. So I finally feel like I'm in a better position in that sense. Like it feels so good. And I've been attracting new people recently and I've been really enjoying.

those people yeah that's awesome i've noticed it's really really good and you realize once you start saying no for example or setting a boundary it's the first one that's the hardest then when you do it again it's a bit easier and then it's a little bit easier again and then by the end you realize oh my gosh, I've just been doing this my whole life and really...

It wasn't that hard, but it is so scary. It is so scary when you've said yes your whole life and now you're trying to say no. But I don't think I would be able to, like if I wasn't on this new medication, that was the turning point for me that I'm able to do that. If I wasn't, I think I'd still be reacting with people pleasing.

believe that yeah because before it was like i said it was like a sneeze it's like i can't it's a reflex where i'm like like i actually really struggled to control it yeah hence why i just didn't go to certain situations. Like I just, the last year I've kind of just been in my house with my cats working and doing that. Yeah, exactly. It's hard to unmask, but I guess even though Paige has had some assistance medically.

It's great proof that when you do start to unmask, it actually can be a positive experience. That's true. I guess what doesn't change is like no matter how I've got there. medication or not my the response from people has been really good and like oh I understand that's all good yeah whenever you're ready or when it did it and it's been so refreshing and I've actually been making more friends yeah which is really cool because I've really struggled with that my whole life yeah

Yeah, exactly. I realize a lot of the time I'm masking and we're masking, we're actually projecting what we think they're going to react like. So me saying no to someone, I'm projecting that they're going to be upset when really they're probably not. I don't know why it's possible because maybe I'd be upset if.

It was the other way around. Maybe I'm just projecting that. I don't know. I have not unmasked very much at all yet. I've isolated still quite a lot. The one thing I will do, though, that is a little bit more that kind of delays stuff is I'll say instead of agreeing. I'll say, oh yeah, can I have a think about that? So that's one of my lines I now use is, oh, can I just think about that and get back to you? And that really helps because it.

They still go, oh, yeah, that's fine. Like, I'll still get an answer from you. It gives you time. It buys me time. I can think about how I feel. And then I can go, yeah, I've thought about it. And I think, no, I think this is how I feel about it. And then they respect it. Or you go, no, yeah, actually.

I'm keen for that. I just needed to make sure that this and that and that was lined up. So that's one line I do. Yes, you can't even say no to me. I know, I can't. You struggle to say no to me. I know. You're like, are you?

And I can always tell, I can always tell I'm like, okay, that's a no. And then she'll be like, well, just, and she'll proceed to explain for two minutes. And I'll literally stop her and be like, I don't want to hear, I know like for yourself, you probably feel like you want to say it, but I'm like, you don't have to explain. Yep.

But it's so funny. I identify it so quickly now. I'll be like, oh, do you want to know? She'll be like, oh, yeah. And I'll be like, right, that's enough. Can I be with you? Yeah. a prince porn look into it yeah yeah exactly i'll be like right that's not happening no no exactly but yeah that's one line i'm using a little bit more in like a workplace environment um just can i get back to you which does help me another thing is i realized that my whole life i've been masking in the form of like

clothing and dressing dressing myself like i hate clothes i've said this i'm i find them uncomfortable i don't like them blah blah blah same i'm nearly topless at this point i've taken my my my long sleeve top off my straps are half off if anything i want to take them off yeah i've tried to like

fit in by wearing like jeans and stuff because that's what everyone's wearing and and like I don't like jeans so another thing I've done a little bit more is I guess dressing how I want to dress is another way of unmasking actually yes same Yeah, I think that's a way to unmask is just to show like I'm wearing a SpongeBob top right now because I like cartoon characters and I like tie-dye. We like bright graphic tees. And maybe that's a bit.

childish you know maybe i look like an 18 year old or a five year old um but i don't care because this is what i like and it's comfortable um well comfortable ish it's still bloody suffocating me um so dressing to unmask is a good way to also show that you're a little bit different and just express yourself yeah um but we will we'll wrap this episode up here but because like we need to keep this short ish we will

can go way further again into masking if you've enjoyed this give us some feedback and we can go further um but long story short paige and i are still working on our unmasking journeys we're nowhere near

the end of it um we're still maskers we're still um you know suppressing stims in public i suppress my stims in public that's a form of masking and that's tiring um but yeah yeah sniff your fingers Not really. I'm not in public. Like sometimes I'll catch myself and then I'd stop because I feel silly and weird. But it's a work in progress. If you have realized you're masking, don't worry.

We're with you. We know it's a weird thing to realize. We know it's hard to do. And you really just have to, at the end of the day, come back to who you truly are at your core. And even that is a long process. Because we don't even know who we are sometimes because we've been masking our whole lives. Like, who are we? Exactly.

Exactly. So what do I want? I don't know. That's the thing. I don't know what I want. I actually don't. I don't really know what I want. When people say, how are you, Paige? I freeze. I'm like, oh. Yeah, same. Oh. I don't know. Yeah, yeah. And then I just deflated with, yeah, fine. Yeah.

Yeah, same. Also, maybe just reflect on other friendships that are making you feel uncomfortable or not your authentic self. Like, are you appeasing these friends? Like, I know it's hard to break up with a friend, but you may find that some of your friendships are not serving you. you it's really really hard like there's a whole list here in this book by devon price that says you know um

Try and do these in everyday life to be radically visible. So disappoint someone by saying no. And it's hard. That is so scary to me. My insides just crawled. Same. I feel sick thinking about that. But it's kind of the best way to do it. However, I think before you start trying to mask. unmask like that the priority is to find out who you really are and why you're masking you can't start unmasking until you've answered those two questions so try that first start trying to work out

Am I masking? Do that cat cue questionnaire I mentioned last week if you haven't already. That's the camouflaging one, right? It is. Try to go back to your core values and try and go back to your authentic self. Maybe practice in your room on your own.

want to actually react or act in real life um but that's a really sort of vague um summary of how you can start unmasking and admittedly Paige and I are nowhere near doing it like we're really on this journey with you we don't have the answers fully yet let's go through it together yeah let's do it thank you so much for listening once again also we do see

your messages that you're sending us on Instagram and TikTok. We are going to try our best to get around to replying to them, but there are a few and we just want to say we have read most of them. And they are really humbling and we really appreciate you messaging us and telling us that this podcast is helping you. So thank you. Yeah. Would love to reply to every single one, but as you can imagine, it's very, a lot and overwhelming. It is. And you know.

We, I think, we're very like, yes, like we're all in or all out. So if we reply to one, we will be... replying to all of them you know yeah so we just give us some time yeah we are seeing them and just know that they're so appreciated and um you're helping us continue to fuel our passion for this because if we know it's helping you we will continue to do it yeah so thank you for your feedback

thank you and your comments and everything oh it's amazing the community on tiktok especially is really really awesome really supportive like everyone's just sharing their own experiences and it's so refreshing to know that there's so many people out there that do feel the way we do but there hasn't Well, there are people that are talking about it, but...

The more we have, the better. Exactly. So thank you. Also, we are now uploading to YouTube in real time. We finally caught up. So we're now uploading to YouTube in real time. If you prefer to watch our mouths move, because sometimes the auditory processing can be hard with podcasts. But thank you for listening. Rate us on your potty app and we'll catch you next week for another app. Thank you. Bye.

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Why choose a Sleep Number smart bed? Can I make my sight softer? Can I make my sight firmer? Can we sleep cooler? Sleep Number does that. Cools up to eight times faster. and lets you choose your ideal comfort on either side. Your sleep number setting. Enjoy personalized comfort for better sleep night after night.

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