#380 Jason Flom with Keith LaMar Pt. 2

I would have gotten off easier had I killed five people. When I was presented with this deal, they say, if you plead guilty, you'll be going to parole boar in your early fifties. Well, I'm fifty three years old right now and still going to parole board. I'll fix an execution in less than six months. I would never spend the least thirty years aside the check of five at the beds, I went twenty years without touching my family. I've been on I don't know how many hunger strikes.

In part one of our coverage of Keith Lamark, we heard how he was offered a sentence that would run concurrent with the time he already had if he just agreed to plead guilty. Five of the ten murders that occurred during the Lucasville prison riot in nineteen ninety three. For refusing this deal, he faced a capital murder trial.

It's an open secret. I mean, it was an article that was written on the thirty of anniversary recently in cincinaty Inquirer and the prosecutors Mark Mark his own record and he said, you know, did I make the deal with the devil? Possibly? It is possible that the guy who maybe have blood on his hands is on the street right now. But that was the cars that we were dealt. You know, that's how it's just the system works.

And so it appears that the leadership of the Black Gangster Disciples, Anthony Lavelle, Stacy Gordon, as well as others who were actually involved in the deaths on the block, managed to avoid accountability by supporting the narrative that laid blame for all ten deaths on the other four men and of course Keith. So let's talk about the investigation led by Hamilton County prosecutors Mark Pete Meyer and Seth Tieger.

Mark Pikemeyer, out of all the prosecutes in the state of Ohio, he was hand picked because of the record we now know he has. Because he can put you on death row with no evidence, he could manufacture the evidence, he could withhold the evidence. This is what his office was known for doing. So it wasn't randomly picked. He was specifically picked because he had those deals.

It's pretty remarkable how many interviews they conducted and how uniform it is that almost all of the testifying witnesses followed the same arc. Initially they were not naming Keith Lamar or even affirmatively saying that Keith was not involved, and then over time as they gave more statements, started saying that Keith was involved and Keith was the leader of the Dusk squad. You know, that is suspicious to

So let's talk about those witnesses.

The testifying witnesses against Keith were Robert Bass, Anthony Walker, Thomas Taylor, Stacy Gordon, Lewis Jones, Ricky Rutherford, and Michael Childers. Many of the witnesses were transferred to Oakwood, which was a much more favorable facility for incarcerated people. Even the witnesses themselves testified that the guards were catering to their needs, giving them unlimited supplies of cigarettes, unlimited supplies at the canteen, extra visitation jobs, and free range of movements.

And being in this better situation together, the witnesses were also able to well get their stories straight right to coordinate. But more importantly, almost all of those testifying witnesses had everything to gain. I mean, some of them had flat out admitted to killing one or more of the victims, and then they just shifted blame aunt to Keith, saying that he made them do it.

Yeah, it's pretty shocking sort of. Even on the state's own theory, there is stronger evidence that other people were more directly involved in the murders of each one of the people for whom Keith was ultimately convicted of killing.

So Keith was charged with four murders from L Block, Daryl de Pina, Bruce Vittali, William Svetti, and Albert Staiano. But let's start with the one from K Block, Dennis Weaver. Keith told the story of how he was piled into this cell on K Block with nine other guys when a Sunni Muslim named William Bowling aka Shabaz killed a man named Dennis Weaver, along with two others, Ricky Rutherford and Michael Childers, who ended up testifying that Keith had told them to do it.

We've been able to find Apple Davis from one of the Muslims who was in the pot with William Bowley after Dennis was killed, and he encouraged William Bowley to say, listen, just to say he made you do it. They all already saying about the Aos murders.

And I have that two thousand and five AFFI davit right here from Abdul Mohammed Sadik, who said that he had been previously threatened by Dennis Weaver. And he continued in the affidavit talking about the time he spent in the same cell with William Bowling in the aftermath of the riot. Now Michael Childers was in a nearby cell as well. Sadik said that Shabbaz admitted to killing Weaver out of loyalty to him, a fellow Muslim whose life

And William Bowler when it came time to testified this mil Drau, he refused to come right.

But Michael Childers and Ricky Rutherford did testify. Kegan, what can you tell us about these two?

Yeah, So Ricky testified, I think Keith was the leader of the desk squad, that Keith told him to tie up Weaver and that he did it, and then Keith told Childers to kill Weaver, which Childers did. Rutherford it was transferred to Oakwood where they were given preferential treatment, and was charged with an aggravated murder, but the charge was reduced to involuntary manslaughter and he received five to twenty five years, but it was sort of intentionally meant

So Rutherford admitted participating in Dennis Weaver's murder, completely remove William Bowling from the equation, and then for the small price of saying Keith made us do it, he received a better prison assignment and effectively no additional sentence for the murder.

In addition, Rutherford is one of a couple testifying witnesses who suffered severe mental illness auditory, visual, and command hallucinations, but those records were never turned over to the defense.

Jesus Christ. Okay, so what about Childers.

Michael Childers first said that other incarcerated people tied Weaver up, and he said that he was told to kill Weaver, but when he went to do so, Weaver was already dead. Then ultimately he admitted to killing Weaver, but said that Keith told him to do so. Again, he was charged with murder but pled to involuntary manslaughter. Childers is another

And again, the mental illness was the least of the credibility issues. Childers got a huge break and sentencing instead of murder, which is a capital evense involuntary manslaughter, which is what he was charged with in Ohio, means three to eleven years. You can see that's a deal. Well, he certainly didn't want to refuse all for the low low price of blaming Keith for his own act, alleging that he gave the order like some sort of prison gang leader like Anthony the Bell or Stacy Gordon of

Yeah, so Stacy Gordon was one of the shot callers for the Black Gangster Disciples, is my understanding. He plainly admitted to helping to plan the uprising and to killing another incarcerated person, and yet was never charged for that. He was charged with assault on a corrections officer, but pled out and received three to five years to run concurrent with the sentence he was already serving. So he effectively sarned no time for this assault during an uprising that he admitted to planning.

So he got no time for either the assault or the murder. Wow, all right, So what testimony did he give in exchange for this phenomenal sweetheart deal that.

He got at trial? You know, Stacy Gordon is probably one of the more damning witnesses, and he described Keith as the leader of the death squad. Again, that's sort of suspicious because other people identify Stacy Gordon as the person doing a lot of the things that Keith Lamar was ultimately pegged for doing, which was opening the cells that the alleged snitches were caged in, which was in everybody's narrative, including the state's narrative, the step taken to

So it sounds like he subbed Keith in for himself in the state's narrative at Keith's trial, and then the rest of the witnesses appear to serve that goal. A guy named Robert Bass testified in addition to three more men who all appeared to have been part of the death squad, Lewis Jones, Anthony Walker, and Thomas Taylor. So let's start with Robert Bass.

For Robert Bass, in particular, he did not bring up Keith's name on his own. The transcript shows that one of the interviewing troopers brought up Keith's name, and then Robert Bass started saying it back to the interviewer. And this is like a classic example of a fed fact that you know, Bass didn't actually testify to seeing anyone assaulted or killed, but he said that Keith was in L six, that Keith had a T shirt over his head,

Pobby bad So he was somebody who I was on speaking terms with, you know, doing a rise. He failed down the steps. He was drunk or something knocked all his teeth out. When he came to testify on he had all brand new Foster teeth. I mean he looked at twenty years younger. You know, he looked at me. He one of the guys had looked at the table one. I'm sorry he got he got released. He got an early release.

Man, So he got his teeth fixed as well as an early release in exchange for some super vague testimony saying that your head was covered but somehow he knew it was you. Maybe he was trying to make himself impeachable, sounds that way, But okay, four down, three to go. Let's move on to Lewis Jones Anthony Walker and Thomas Taylor, and we're going to do this by going victim to victim in L Block, Bruce Vitali, William Spetty, Albert Steano, and Darryl Depina.

For Daryl Depina. You know, there were other incarcerated people who made statements saying that Lewis Jones was the person who killed Darryl Doupina. Lewis jones statements changed dramatically over time. He admitted to being a part of the Desk Squad and listed everyone else involved, which is a sort of rare statement for someone to give off the bat for

Wow, he named everybody in the death squad in his first interview and excluded Keith information that was hidden by the state, and then for his testimony he was transferred to Oakwood and was not charged for two murders, Daryl Topina and Bruce Fatally. And I understand that another individual, Aaron Jefferson, was named along with Lewis Jones for Darryldpina, and then there were additional people named in connection with Bruce Fatali's death.

Yeah, so with Bruce Fatale there is not strong and credible evidence against Keith. However, there are other statements in the record that two other incarcerated people who are the actual people who killed Bruce, who were not charged with this crime.

Now let's move on to the murder of William Speeddy.

A person named Eric Curdie later admitted and pled killed to this had to give a call a quy about the details of the murder that had to be accepted by the court, and he specifically said that Keith was not involved. That would seem to be pretty important exculpatory evidence that should be a basis for Eversinis conviction, but the courts didn't see it that way.

And in addition, to Gertie. There were court filings naming three other individuals in Stetti's murder, Fred Frakes, Roger Snodgrass, and Brian Escridge, yet none of those alternative suspects were known to the jury or the defense. So moving on to Albert Steano for this one, the last two witnesses, Anthony Walker and Thomas Taylor kind of tag teamed this one. Yeah.

Walker initially told investigators that a number of people who participated in the beatings and murders in l Block, but said that Keith was not present. Ultimately, however, he said that Keith was involved, and so he just switched in Keith for other people in his narrative and ultimately testified that Keith was the leader of the desk squad. Keith handed someone about and told him too, when he had earlier said that was someone else entirely.

So this is another time Keith was specifically excluded, but the state withheld it from the defense, and then Walker joined the crowd, swapping in Keith for the actual assailants in exchange for no charges for his own actions. Then Thomas Taylor testified to receiving and using the bat that Walker mentioned.

So Thomas Taylor admitted to murdering Siano. He said that he alone hit the victim over the head with the bat repeatedly until the bat cracked, but he said that Keith told him to and yet Taylor was able to plead to in Terry manslaughter, while Keith received a capital murder charge and conviction.

Pay were made about eight statements. In his first three statements, he was now committed to four statement he said he saw Keith lamar is Stacy Gordon, He's stay Gordons and leading the death squad and being his still statement. Stacy Gordon completely disappears from never till because State Gordon too had now become a state's witness.

This podcast is brought to you by Ohio Justice and Policy Center, a nonprofit law firm that seeks justice for people torectly impact it by Ohio's criminal legal system. OJPC provides free legal services to currently and formally incarcerated people. Through its Beyond Guilt Project, OJPC works to free over punish people who have rehabilitated themselves. Ojpc's Second Chance clinics help individuals with criminal records remove barriers to employment and housing.

They took a group of prisoners and they put them in a private prisoner here in Ohio, and there they went over with script Mark pem eight Thanksgiving dinner with these prisoners. They had movies, they had the free runner, the commissary, and he's saying witnesses would carry from trial to trial saying the same story over and over again. And we're talking about a riot. We're talking about people

You can kind of see the reasoning for viewing evidence that had been on L Block for eleven day seed just not probative, but not so with the inmates on the yard or in K Block, And in the state's narrative, Keith was either ordering or leading the charge on several of these murders on L Block before returning to the yard. He didn't have a change of clothes. If he had anything to do with his desk squad, his boots and clothing clearly would have been covered and at least some of the victims DNA.

Yeah, you would imagine. You would think if I'm responsible for the defer five people, you would think I would have some blood, some kind of you know, scratches on my body something.

Yeah.

The fact that they didn't save the clothing is more and more shocking. The state took that piece of evidence, probably the most crucial piece of evidence in this case and burned it.

You know, there layers that stuff paper down, didn't this sweaver's throat and never presented the piece of paper with my DNA on it.

Yeah, the paper that you allegedly stuffed down Dennis Weaver's throat to suffocate him. I mean that piece of alleged evidence and somehow magically disappeared as well, out of twenty two.

Thousand pieces of evidence that was collected.

And those weren't the only dirty tricks, right.

They took my case to Clarens and Ohio ninety six percent white. They had paneled all white jewelry. But that was only the beginning. They want to do this very one way discovery.

You know, when I first read about this pre trial discovery process, I was dumbfounded as to how this was allowed to happen. The prosecution had amassed hundreds of interviews. But when Keith's attorneys made the request for any exculpatory evidence, you know, saying that Keith wasn't involved, first they objected.

The prosecutors objected saying, you know, it's going to be hard to satisfy their constitutional requirement to find all of the exculpatory material in their mountains of evidence. That's obviously not an excuse. But the judge accepted that justification and said turnover what you can. And what followed was the prosecutor saying, you know, we don't want to turn over all of the statements with the names attached, because we think that that could put some of the incarcerated people's

Attached, there's a bit to unpack about what you just said. They handed over what they deemed exculpatory and with what we've already examined here left out some absolute fucking whoppers. And then I understand the defense was given a list of forty three names that were not matched up with the statement summaries that the prosecution actually did provide for the judge to read into the record. And then most if not all, of those forty three men wouldn't cooperate with Keith.

Defense if the witness statements is are not attached to names, so you can't cross examine the testifying witnesses and can't go interview and call witnesses of your own that have testimony that is helpful for you, then those disclosures are not satisfying the purpose of Brady's are not allowing you to present a defense.

And what Pete Meyer later admitted at a federal habeas hearing in two thousand and seven was that they used an impossibly narrow standard to deem a statement exculpatory. Essentially, he said that since these were group murders, if Keith was not specifically excluded, then it does not exclude Keith. But we know from examining the interview transcripts that they didn't even satisfy their own standard. Lewis Jones and Anthony

Again, the purpose of Brady, the reason you get exculpatory material is so that you can present a defense. Anybody looking at that today, any lawyer, any judge, would say that doesn't satisfy Brady.

So with these built in constitutional violations, Keith went to trial with the judge having read these statement summaries unattached to names into the record, the ones that pete Meyer and Tiger deemed exculpatory, and the statement summaries varied from useless, to speculative to actually exculpatory. For example, referring to an alleged witness of Dennis Weaver's death in cell K two thirty six, quote, he was in a cell adjoining K two thirty six, but gave no useful information end quote.

Yeah, so you know, Keith testified and had a number of defense witnesses Kurt Ayers, Ronnie Eugene Foreman, or Foot's Corey Perkins, William Washington also known as Gino, and Christopher Eugene Williams. Basically all of the defense witnesses corroborated Keith's story. Like in so many wrongful convictions and exonerations, you know, the defendant had a bunch of alibi witnesses. They all

Unfortunately, once again, without knowing everything we laid out earlier about the witnesses, or even with the for cocta discovery that he did get, the jury was primed to buy the state's narrative, and with the exception of Robert Bass, all of them testified, transferring the blame for their own crimes right to Keith. And since all of the physical evidence had been destroyed, there was no way to either confirm more than I had.

Because they did. At one point wrote a whole bunch of wheelbarrows and shovels and fire extinguishers wrapped in plastic, given a jury the impression that these are the murder weapons, hammers and shanks and all this shit wrapped in plastic, as if they had did a meticulous investigation. She didn't have anything to do with anything, you know, but no one was there to see that. Throughout the whole trial

Books then, and I have to ask, of the those the two thousand books that you've read, which one had the most profound impact on you.

Well, one of the things that I was given to understand that if I wanted to change my situation, I had to learn how to write my mind. So I dropped out of school in tenth grade. And so one of the books that I read that taught me how to write was Richard Wright's Black Boy. I read that book every day for you know, a few years. I was reading with the intent of learning how to write, and so reading that is how I ultimately became a

This is the most important part of the story in my opinion, right, of course, I'm talking about your poetry, your performances, music writing. Wrote Condemned as I understand it, in solitary confinement on a typewriter, a few pages at a time, right, and dictated it. Every morning, I telephoned to somebody who transcribed each and every word you founded

And I'm doing the same that you are trying to do a cason that you know anybody else trying to do. You're trying to make the most out of your want to know the life and the circumstances are different, yes, but the goal is to say, is to do something right just with my life.

Tell us what is Native Sons. That's a literacy program that you founded.

Yeah, LIZI because you know Richard Wright, as I said, Man had a big impact on my life, not just on my writing, but just on how to engage with life. And I just thought that if I had read that book when I was thirteen in the juvenile that it probably would have changed something in terms of my self concept and how I look at life. And so I just started reading with high school students in the inner cities here in Ohio and New York City. And it's really really a reward and experience.

Yeah, it's incredible. It's kind of like you're reaching back almost like trying to help your younger self, and you've been doing that and so much more with one of the unsung heroes of your story, Amy Gordeyev. She helps facilitate the literacy program events. She's the person that transcribed your memoir Condemned over the phone, as well as advocated for you to us and Leah Rothman of The Real

You know, because I have time.

You know.

These people have given me time, you know, and given me really a gift of time.

It's truly amazing to hear your perspective, and I believe if I could come around to it being a gift if not for the fact that you have to also spend that gift of time fighting for your freedom and your life, your very life. So let's turn to your appeals. There were a number of potential constitutional violations, like whether or not some jurors were excluded due to racial bias. But the main issue was and is, the withholding of exculpatory evidence. But this issue is kind of split into

The appellate court said these statements were turned over. That ignores the fact that they were turned over in such a way that they couldn't satisfy the very basic premise of Brady, that they're turned over in a way to defend yourself.

Right, how was he supposed to defend himself with these sort of phantom statements with no names attached. So how did the ruling get around that obviously clearly logical conclusion.

They said that they weren't exculpatory, which sort of follows the prosecutor's very narrow definition of Brady, which is that they weren't exculpatory because They said that other people did it, but they didn't say that Keith didn't do.

It, which is patently ridiculous. There were plenty of people in that prison eight hundred and nineteen, to be exact, and they weren't specifically excluded either. And so what did the court say to address that?

They said it wasn't material under Brady, and material under Brady is effectively, if it wouldn't have changed the outcome of trial, then it's not material, and so we don't need to reverse a conviction based on the fact that these statements weren't turned over in a usable fashion.

So that refers to what Pete Meyern Tiger did turn over a trial. And then comes the second Brady issue, the exculpatory evidence that was withheld from the defense and later discovered by two attorneys who were appointed to handle Keith's federal appeal, Kate McGarry and David Dawton. Now they turned up the initial witness statements that we revealed earlier, and at least two of those satisfy even the very narrow thread the needle Brady standard that Pete Meyer and

There were statements from other incarcerated people saying that Gordon opened the cells that the alleged niches were placed in and was the leader of the death squad, which is basically what Keith was convicted of. Gordon himself admitted to killing another incarcerated person.

And then was never charged with that murder, but rather with assault of a corrections officer with a sentence to run concurrent by the way, with the time he already had, and then at that assault proceeding, Gordon specifically excluded Keith.

So that is again very clear material Brady evidence.

But the state courts heard all of that and didn't think even one juror would have thought it mattered at the time, even though that's all it takes to change an outcome of trial exactly.

I was told not to suspect any release from the state courts. I thought I will receive release once I got to the federal court. And the only one out of all the Lucasville prisoners who were granted every diitionary hearing wom been back in two thousand and seven, I believe it was, and put Mark.

Pete Myer on the stand, and this was when he came clean about the impossibly narrow standard by which they deemed something exculpatory.

Right.

I mean, it's a it's a strange thing that the courts did in reviewing those statements.

Right.

They bought Pete Meyer's logic and said that if a statement said that some people committed the murder but didn't directly exclude Keith, then it wasn't exculpatory, okay.

But Pete Meyer and Tiger did withhold statements that were not absolved by this ridiculous standard, statements that did specifically exclude Keith. And yet the federal and state courts both did the same thing, saying that the statements from Anthony Walker, Lewis Jones, and Stacy Gordon wouldn't have made a difference at trial. So Keith's habeas was denied in twenty eleven, as was the appeal in twenty fifteen, and in twenty sixteen the Supreme Court denied Sir Tierrari, refusing to review

The Tennessee Federal Defenders took over the case. They did successfully get access to additional files that the Appella Council did not have access to. We're now going to be reviewing those. They were going to attempt to bring an actual innocence claim. They recognized that it needed to happen in state court first, but their jurisdiction is limited to federal court, so they were not able to make that motion.

And that's where you and the team at belldoc Levine, and Hoffman come in.

Yes, so, David Singleton at the Ohio Justice and Policy Center is our local council, and then we're also working with Joshua Jack Jones at Northwestern Law School. We've now gotten all the materials from the Tennessee Federal Defenders the process of digitizing all of that. We have an army of attorneys and student attorneys now that are going to be reviewing it in tandem, using the coding system to bubble everything up to get to the attorneys that'll be writing the brief.

So there are still some promising legal avenues available along with the potential for additional exculpatory material that you have already. And now Governor Dwine has granted Keith a reprieve. It's cold comfort, but still and it's insane that it ever got this close. But Keith had a scheduled execution date of November sixteen, twenty twenty three. But now his team has a real chance to litigate his case and we are hoping against hope that justice delayed will not be

And go to my website Keima dot org or follow me on Facebook, Justice PIMW just petition on those various pages that you can you can sign as submitted to the government, just to indicate to him how many people are aware of my situation, who are watching the decisions that he makes in regard to my situation.

All right, We're going to have actions steps linked in the bio. It's important to note that Justice for Keith Lamar is a nonprofit five oh one c three. There will also be ways that you can delve even deeper into this case, including another podcast, the entire second season of The Real Killer with journalists and host Lea Roffman. We're also going to link to Keith's book, his upcoming shows, and how you can experience his work and get involved. So with that, we come to my very favorite part

Keith is innocent and at minimum he did not receive a fair trial. He needs to finally get a fair look at his case by a court. You know, I think Keith has said it best. He's not asking any

As I'm talking about all this shit, it's a lie too, man, that you know, the kind of you know, if you didn't have the statements, if they threw away all the statements like they did, threw away all the physical evidence. No one would believe this story but the law, and behold the mount of evidence. You know, all this shit. So for no other reason, the world want to know about this, what happened to me, what they did to me. And it might be, you know, I might find myself

Now.

I might not be previct them from executing me. These people have been killing they're good, and that their assisting at executing people, lensing people, And I was trying the ranks of my ancestors. That's how I look at that and sit there. That happened. I'm doing everything to prevent that from happening. You know but one thing. For so they won't be able to call this justice though, and that's my goal. And so I'm retrying my case in the court of public opinion. And it's a hard sale.

Thank you for listening to Wrong for Conviction. You can listen to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts one week early by subscribing to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. I want to thank our production team Connor Hall, Andy Chelsea, and Lyla Robinson, as well as my fellow executive producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Awartis, and Jeff Cliburn. The music in this production was supplied by three time