#318 Guest Host Lauren Bright Pacheco with Mark Schand

but you know you are one of my idols. Really, the work that you've done in the wrongful conviction space and judicial reform is just phenomenal, and Wrongful Conviction is one of my favorite podcasts. And congratulations to you guys for hitting now the milestone of three hundred episodes, and that I mean the fact that there are three hundred of these cases of wrongfully convicted men and women who

have suffered needlessly in prison for decades is just overwhelming. Well, the fact is three d isn't even the beginning of the top of the tip of the iceberg. There are tens of thousands of wrongly convicted people. We are just telling some of the stories of some of the ones

we know about, and they're outrageous. Every one blows my mind, and you know, in order to help spread this word, I've asked some of the people I most admire, including some who are rongly convicted, some of the best attorneys in the country crem with the visitors, and of course some of my favorite podcast hosts and journalists, and you,

Lauren were at the top of my list. I I really sincerely appreciate that vote of confidence, Um, But I have to say I was so appreciative, Um, and honored to get the chance to fill in for you, but to also have the opportunity to speak with Mark Shant and his attorney. It's an incredibly heartbreaking, moving and infuriating story. Well, you did a phenomenal job. I'm so excited to be able to present this to our audience. Please listen to

this important episode of Wrongful Conviction. Back in Springfield, Massachusetts, the After Five night club was a place where a few shady characters like to hang out. Two of them were the Stokes brothers, and on the night in question, they were outside selling cocaine. But that night, their cocaine deal went bad. A couple of young guys approached the brothers and their two customers. One of them lunged for a gold chain and a scuffled agan Someone pulled out

a gun and started shooting. One of the customers, Anthony Cook, was shot in the shoulder and meet it out alive, but an innocent bystander, Victoria Seymour, was killed. Witnesses to the shooting reported seeing a blue van with Connecticut plates, so during their investigation, the Springfield cops reached out to the police in Hartford, Connecticut, looking for some leads. In a completely unprofessional investigation, the Hartford police landed on Mark Shant,

a teenager who had recently moved into the city. On November, he was convicted of murder and sentenced to natural life in prison without the possibility of parole. This is wrongful conviction. I'm Lauren Bright Pacheco. I'm a broadcast journalist and a podcaster. You may have listened to my show as Murder and

Oregon and Murder in Illinois, Mark and John. I am so excited to be sitting in this chair guest hosting for Jason because I have to tell you in my career I've covered wrongful convictions and stories of corruptions, but this is such an insane story that I found myself screaming at my monitor while I was doing research for it. It's just unbelievable. So thank you both for speaking with me. I'd love you both to introduce yourselves. Mark, why don't

you start well, my name is Mark Shan. I am originally from I was born in Queens, New York, raised in Queens. My father and my mom came in from Panama when they were pretty young, and you know, I was basically raised in New York. My dad relocated to Hartford, Connecticut area when I was very young. He was a small business owner. He had several small businesses, kind of make a long story store and get to the meat of it. I um came up to help him with

some of his small businesses. I was subsequently arrested, as you know, taken to Massachusetts. I was put on trial for murder I had absolutely no involvement in. I was found guilty, sentenced to natural life without the eligibility of parole, and as you also not, started twenty seven years in prison for a crime I didn't commit. And John, you were instrumental in helping right this wrong. Well, yes, I am my partner Linda Thompson, and Linda is actually the

one who first became involved in Mark's case. Linda and I are partners in a small firm of Thompson and Thompson and Springfield, Mass. I've been practicing law since nineteen

seventy Linda since nineteen seventy six, so we're veterans. Linda became involved in Mark's trial when Mark's trial lawyer consulted her about whether Mark should testify in his own defense, and so we were not directly involved in the trial, but we were present when the verdict was returned, and very shortly after that we took over the case to

do appeals and motions for a new trial. So we worked on this case for almost as long as Mark was in prison, about twenty seven years, which is very unusual with the wrongful conviction case that you were involved from the beginning, Mark, could you tell us a little bit more about your life in Hartford before all of this began. When I came up here, I was just turned eighteen before this happened. You know, I kind of lived a normal teenage life, you know, I wasn't the

best kid, you know. I mean I got into a little bit of trouble and stuff like that, nothing major at all. I think I was eighteen going on nineteen when I was arrested. But but before my arrest, you know, I would help my dad out with his small business. I would go back and forth to New York, and you know, it was kind of short, you know, my life before this happened. In regards to me relocating to Connecticut,

I was not hit long before I was arrested. But right before you were arrested, you actually met the woman who became the love of your life and and the mother of your third son. Yes, Quentin, John, if you could take me now, you were living in Hartford, Mark, but the crime that you were convicted of committing actually occurred in Springfield, Massachusetts, which is about eight miles away.

You're from Springfield, John, correct, If you could just kind of paint a picture of Springfield in for me, particularly around the club where the crime that Mark was convicted of committing occurred. Well, Springfield at that time was a fairly segregated city, and at that at the time, in the mid eighties, there was a lot of drug trafficking

and use, particularly cocaine. There were quite a few homicides compared to the size of the city, and the police were typical of the police around this area at that time. That is, most of the police training was on the job training. There were a lot of problems with in the criminal justice system, with the process of discovery, so there was a constant struggle on the defense side trying to get information and evidence that would help the defendant

in court. It's safe to say that it wasn't exactly a level playing field, and that is something, particularly with the exculpatory evidence that very much plays into Mark's case. But let's actually go to the night of the crime.

So shortly after eleven PM on September two in Springfield, Massachusetts, there is a drug deal that goes bad outside the After five lounge and there's four gentlemen involved, Charles heavy Stokes, his brother David, and they're engaged in a drug deal with two other guys, Anthony Cook and Michael Houston, and

that's when things go wrong. Apparently there approached by several unidentified young men who basically ask if they can see what's going on, and in that scuffle, one of them grabs towards one of the gentleman's chains, and that's when a gun's produced. Shots are fired and very unfortunately and innocent bystander, five year old Victoria Seymour is shot and killed and Anthony Cook is shot in the shoulder but survives. Now at that time, mark, where were you at that

exact moment where this unfolds. Earlier that day, I had a root canal. I was kind of been paining all day, and I was, you know, I would go back and forth to pick my wife up from work because Maya was working at a beauty salon right right, probably about I want to say, five ten minutes maybe ten minutes away from my father's bar. So the reason I kept going back and forth because she says she's gonna be ready fifteen minutes, and fifteen minutes I'm thinking we're going home.

I'm you know, I'm in pain from a root canal earlier that day, but around that time, uh, she finally was ready. I put it in the car. But if I'm not mistaken, around that time, I was actually in a bar and I stopped at a bar because someone suggested to take a shot, and you know, I wasn't a drinker, but I was willing to try anything. At that point, I wasn't scruciate pain, and I went home and laid down. You are almost thirty miles away at that exact time, and you have multiple people who can

back you up on that story. So how did they settle upon Mark? How does Mark get dragged into this? It's not clear to us exactly how that happened. We know that for the this happened on September two, and we know that for the next two weeks they took statements from a lot of different people. They never got a consistent description of the assailant. After about two weeks, they've developed some information that it was some group of young men from Hartford who came up to Springfield. The

Springfield police got in touch with the Hartford police. Then in about a week, a detective from Hartford produced about thirty mug shots, and from those photographs, somehow Mark's photo became the subject of attention and it began to they begin to use it prominently. At the same time they had obtained the Springfield police had obtained three polaroid photographs. So this was one of the things that I was

shouting at my my screen over. So those polaroid pictures were taken of Mark, not related to this shooting at all. But they told you Mark that there was some kind of traffic and fraction based on your motorcycle. Correct, It was maybe, like I want to say, like forty to fifty motorcycles. We drove to New Haven to um parade. When we came back, we all lined up in front of my father's bar. Well, there's almost forty bikes there, and the cop walked across the street and came straight

to my bike. He put his hand on the on the tank and he said, oh, this bike is warm. You've you've been riding his bike and you don't have a motorcycle license. Now, he didn't ask me for my license, and he asked me my name. He didn't he didn't know I didn't have a motorcycle license. There's forty guys there, so apparently he already knew something about me. So he said, I'm gonna told your bike and you're going downtown. They

took me downtown. And while I was downtown, you know, I had nothing to hide, So he said, you mind if I take a pot for it? Of you mind? If I take a picture of you, I said, you know, I'm thinking I'm gonna get a ticket and get out of it. But apparently this was a part of the whole thing. Is kind of blatantly obvious, because you don't tell a guy's bike and give him a ticket and take them downtown for driving a motorcycle without a permit. First of all, that's a warning, you know. Second of all,

he didn't see me driving a motorcycle. He just walked over there, right, And they clearly didn't pick you out at random. But one of the reasons they might have picked you out, we're the glasses you were wearing. Because the police interviewed two teenage boys who said they were at a pizza king restaurant on the night of the

nightclub shooting. They tell the police that six men came in asking about a gold chain that was stolen at a run DMC concert, and the chain they were looking for sounded a lot like the one that Heavy Stokes was wearing. The teenage boys described the men asking about the chain to be about five seven, with corn rows and gazelle glasses and john if I'm not mistaken. They also said that these men left in a customized blue and gray van with Connecticut plates. That's right, Lauren. The

these were two fifteen year old middle school students. They reported that they had this encounter, and that does introduce Randy Weaver into the case. And there are some notable things about Randy and he's probably the the person that the police were actually looking for because he was While he was not a look alike, he was he resembled Mark strongly. They are about the same size he wore.

They were both run DMC officionados. They both followed. They are used the run DMC style of dress and corn rows, braids, gazelle glasses, and Andy had a two toned blue Chevrolet van with Connecticut license plates. That van was also spotted or a van like that was spotted leaving the vicinity of the after five after the shooting. Randy Weaver had was later stopped in Hartford and his van was impounded.

Weaver was a guy who had they had mixed with the Hartford police as a drug dealer earlier in his in his career, and he lived in the same vicinity and so he got word that people were looking at him and pointing out that he looked like Mark shand

who had already been arrested. He changed his appearance, He cut his hair, and he kind of disappeared himself because he figured, as he told us later, the police didn't know who they were after, but they had already grabbed mar Randy knew that Mark wasn't involved, and he was afraid that he would be, that he would be arrested because he was there. He came to us later and he told us that he was there at the time that the shooting occurred. And so that makes it that

much more suspicious. Mark, that you're targeted out of one of forty bikes and you're brought in because you're wearing these gazelles. You match the basic description of Randy Weaver, and now they've taken polaroid shots of you that then pop up almost as training tools to retrofit placing you at the scene of the crime. John, will you just dive in a little bit about the way in which photos were used to in this case misidentify the person. We have a fairly definite and also kind of sketchy

at the same time understanding of that. What we do know is that the police had somewhere between thirty and forty photos that they were using. But what we also know is that they were so disorganized. That is not deliberately disorganized, but just not professionally trained. They were not

well coordinated. So they would guys would go police officers would go out on their own shift and take photographs with them, show find witnesses, take statements, show the photographs, and not make good records either of what photographs they were showing, what combinations we call them a raise. But they didn't do that systematically, and they in particular, they didn't make a record of negative responses. They would not

write that down because that didn't help their case. At this point, they were not really investigating as much as they were putting together a case against Mark shand so tunnel vision had definitely set in. Yes, And since they weren't keeping good records, their work could be adjusted as they as their information developed, and as they moved along.

So when if they had had an unsatisfactory interview or an unsatisfactory showing with a witness, they didn't need to deal with that because they didn't necessarily keep a record of it, and they could go back to that witness later with a different set of photographs and come up with an identification which led to your arrest. Mark, can you take me to the exact day and time of your arrest and how that went down. That day, I

stopped by to talk to my dad. He was in the bodle of various things, and I spoke with him a little bit. I went upstairs to talk to my sister, not doing nothing in particularly. One guy drove by and he told me he said, you know they called me Cash is my nickname, And he said Cash. Listen. I don't know why he looking at you. To drive back for looking at you, I said, okay, whatever. So I

saw them go this way. You know, I'm talking or whatever to someone, and the cop car comes back this way and it stops, and you know, they an officer got out and he said you Mark Shan. I said, yeah, you know, he says you're under rest for murder. I was like what And he pulled out his handcuffs and a couple of people heard it, Like you know, people thought like we was being punked or something, or you know, it's a TV show. Nobody thought it was serious. I didn't,

you know, I really thought it was a joke. I said, what would you say? He said, you're under rest for murder. Well tell me, tell me about the interrogation that took place. Well, it wasn't much of an interrogation. It was blatantly obvious that the Harvard cops didn't know much of what's going on. And you know, you could tell it was a thing where they were just told, like, you know, some youth

from here, and they went and snatched me. And I could see that they were just holding me and waiting, and and then um, super turney by the name of Francis Bloom and two officers came in. And it wasn't much of an elegation. You know. He told me stuff like I know you was in Springfield and and you're you're no good, murdering piece of ship, and I'm gonna put you away, and and you know, just it was it's a little foggy now, but he was basically telling me.

He wasn't asking me anything. He's basically telling me he knew I did it, and I'm gonna get you for murder. And why did you come up to Springfield? And I said, I've never been in Springfiord called me a liar, and you know that sort of thing. So it wasn't an interrogation per se. They didn't sit me down and say, had you ever been in Springfield? Do your own van? Did nothing, nothing. It wasn't that kind of thing. It was more accusatory. You know. He was screaming at me.

I don't know if it was for effect or not. And I think he was a little flustered that I wasn't, you know, flustered. I think that bothered him a little because, quite frank, I wasn't flustered because I know I didn't kill anybody. So I'm thinking this is gonna blow over, Like maybe they'll come and be like, Mark, you know, we made mistake. Maybe they'll get me up there. And some people look at me back, that's not the guy, and I'll be home tomorrow. I'll be out tomorrow. And

I didn't come home for three decades. So you're arrested. You're in jail, and then at some point a lineup is suggested and you say, let's do it. You know, the lineup is presented to Heavy Stokes, who was one of the guys involved in the cocaine deal. Tell me about that lineup, Mark, So the lineup was really suggestive, and it was it was beyond suggested if John probably could speak to it better than I can. But within

this lineup, it was myself. It was an officer that had previously arrested the guy that was doing a line up. One of them saved his life by sticking his finger in a bullet hole, so he knew that guy. It was another guy who grew up with him, another guy who he knew from the neighborhood. And there was me. So it was quite obviously, you know, it was quite obviously who he was supposed to point out. I mean, he know the cop didn't come from Harford and kill anyone.

He knew the other couple who stuck his finger in his bullet hole didn't do it. He knew the guy he knew from the neighborhood didn't do it. You know. So the lineup was really suggestive, and you know, I guess I was the only guy in there that could have been, you know, as in his mind, could have been responsible for it. So exactly that that was another point where I'm screaming at my screen. You're the only guy in that lineup that the person who's supposed to

identify you doesn't know, right exactly, That's right. The lineup was a staged lineup. It was designed to produce an identification of Mark. The second thing that was at work here is the practice of rewarding witnesses. Nobody else gets to do that, where the rest of us have to get our witnesses the honest way. That is, we want you to tell you, tell us what you know. We want you to testify to what you know. And if you do that, well we can do is say thank you.

The police and the prosecutors can say to a witness, you are facing charges in another case. If you testify for us in this case, we'll give you a break on the prosecution we have against you in that other case. So that witness is compromised by that offer of leniency in exchange for testimony. That's a common standard practice around

the United States, and it is a terrible problem. And that definitely um was on display in the trial because there were six witnesses who testified against you, and they all had incentive to identify you in one form or another. Take me to the trial, John, I know that Linda, your partner, was actually at the trial at at some point. How would you give me a brief synopsis of the trial, how would you categorize it? As we've noted, there were six eyewitnesses who claimed that they were at the after

five and saw these this brief flurry of events. It was a pretty straightforward case in that sense. The big handicap to the defense was that they were not Roy Anderson was not aware of silent arrangements for testimony. For example, not only Heavy Stokes, who was one of the victims, but Anthony Cook, who was also a victim. That is, he was shot and his shooting was one of the charges that Mark was tried on. Both of them had to be bribed, They had to be rewarded to to testify.

The victims wouldn't testify without a deal. That's how thoroughly corrupt this trial was. So the trial takes place between November nine and twenty, and the prosecutor is the Assistant District Attorney, Francis Bloom, who has a rather spotty history um in terms of protocol. You're going into trial knowing that there is no physical evidence linking you to any of the crimes that took place on September two, because you were thirty miles away at the time. Did you

go into trial fairly confident. Yeah, I kind of thought that you know, it'll come out, you know, it'll all come out in the Washington and wanted the dust to drew. Someone had judged it. Someone will see that this is not diving. It's not you know, it's not coming together. But Mark, you had an alibi that was confirmed by seven people. Yes, that should have and convincing as well. You had a dental procedure that was done that day, you weren't up for clubbing that night, You're driving half

an hour. So how does that fall apart in the courtroom? First of all, eyewitness testimony is special, a special kind of testimony. The jurors are inclined to look at them sympathetically and expect them to know the truth. That can be very convincing. Just one person, six of them all saying the same thing. That's powerful evidence. But Mark has seven eyewitnesses who back up as alibi. How does that fall apart in court? There are two basic problems with

an alibi. Usually your alibi witnesses are friends or family. Okay, So one of Mark's problems was that he was not involved in this crime. Therefore he couldn't say when it happened, or what he was doing, where it was, and so forth. This happened on September two. Mark was arrested October nine, So it's almost two full months before Mark is aware that he's even a suspect. And what do they do.

They notify the people that they were with to let them know that there's a problem that they need help with. And so Maya is calling her sisters and other family members and saying, do you remember September two? Do you remember what we were doing? And so they talked about what they were doing. They all discuss it and they get it down and then they go tell the lawyer. Well, in the trial, after they've given their testimony, the cross

examination goes something like this. When Maya's cross examined, the prosecutor says, so, when you found out when when Mark was charged, you contacted all of these witnesses, didn't you, Yes? And you told them when this happened. Yes, I did. And you all discussed your testimony, didn't you, Yes? And you all decided that you had an alibi for Mark, didn't you yes? Okay, And that's all true, but it sounds like they all got together and cooked up a story for him. Okay, so Mark, take me to the

moment when the verdict is decided. Well, uh, you know, and true dramatic fashion, they asked me to stand, He said, Mark shamp please then and they read the verdict. They said, um, you know, basically guilty on all accounts. And I can recall it distinctively. I almost didn't hear anything else after that, but my mother's scream, you know what I mean? Um m hmm. Do you remember returning? Was was Maya in the courtroom when they announced the verdict. My whole family, Yeah,

my whole family is in the court room. I I kind of I couldn't turn around to him because I didn't want to look at my mother. I heard her screams and it bothered me so much. I didn't want to look at her one top her hearing, you know, So I just stared straight ahead. Um, I just heard him screaming, and I glanced back one time and it was kind of holding my mom up, and I just started looking straight ahead again. I didn't want to look back,

you know. Uh. Yeah, So yeah, that's what I remember most, and the judgment explaining to me what had just happened, and do I understand what it just happened. And yeah, you know, at that moment when I when I went myself, I kind of really came to the realization that I was excuse my friends, but I was fucked. You know. I really came to the conclusion like, wow, you know, this is a cumbination of what the fun was going on in the back vaccines, of whatever the hell bloom

had going on. But I kept saying to myself, like, they really convicted me in this crime. I just couldn't believe it. You know. I had to like come to terms with that, you know, and that took me literally twenty seven years to come to terms with that. You know. I never really, like you know, said, okay, all right, you convicted. That never happened. Ever, literally every day, every moment for seven years, I was in disbelief of what

had happened. I really was. So you end up serving twenty seven years in prison, and meanwhile Maya is at home and she never gives up on you. Tell me about your support system while you were inside, and how Maya created a home for your three sons. Well, oh my gosh, that's that's immeasurable. I mean, right from the beginning. She supported me. She you know, she came in to

see me in jail. She would get my other two sons from previous relationships and made sure they got to meet each other and knew each other and grew up together steadfast. And she just she was there for me the entire time. You know, I would see her like every week, unless it was like a snowstorm or death in the family. I want to say, it was like a I want to have to our rise some time, but nothing would stop her. She you know, she kept my family together. She supported me, She did what she

could financially. You know, we were scrape up money to pay investigators and attorneys. And you know, she was dead when I was arrested, and she was dead day step foot out of it. So you know, I can't say enough about what she did. Um, John, do you want to walk me through the post conviction litigation. We had information early on about Randy Weaver and Tracy Fisher in particular,

those two witnesses. Those two men were being talked about and we're saying things that implicated them and exonerated Mark. We couldn't find Randy Weaver. We found Tracy Fisher because he was in prison. We believed that Weaver and and Fisher were key witnesses in Mark's case, but they were

we couldn't get any evidence from them. We were in the position now where we were doing the appeal of Mark's convictions, saying that the trial was unfair, but we were also investigating to try to discover additional evidence to show that he was not guilty. That was the time when the falsified report surfaced, the two page report that showed that Charles Stokes had described someone who could not possibly have been Mark. That was on the second page of a two page document that had been altered to

look like a one page document. So you have this information that was hidden from Mark's original defense attorney. What did you do next? So we went back to the trial judge Judge Murphy, and Judge Murphy laughed it off. He said, well, I don't understand why the police did this, but the defense had all that information anyway, which was just false, and that's the way the motion for the new trial went. We lost that and then we appealed. Of course, each time we've got a ruling like that,

we had to go. I went and met with Mark and had to explain to him how we had lost so that by that time, by the time we finished that litigation, it was I had to say to Mark, this is it. Well, this is the last thing we There's nothing left to do. You're you're stuck here. And we both I remember we we held hands and cried. Mark said to me, John, I'm not giving up this. I'm not I do not accept this. There's got to

be some way. I'm not giving up. And I said, Mark, there's only one thing that's going to get you out of here. It's gonna be new evidence. We have to get new evidence. And it looked really, really bleak until Jim McCloskey and Centurion Ministries finally said we're gonna take the case. Jim mccoskey talked Randy Weaver into coming in and making sworn statements that implicated him. That is, Randy Weaver was willing to say, I was there at the after five when the shooting occurred, and I know Mark

Shand and he wasn't there. Sin Terrio took a while to to come full circle and accept my case. They didn't accept it initially, you know, for whatever reason, maybe they weren't fully convinced I mean their reputable organization and their name cares a lot of weights, so I understand how they have to be convinced of your innocence before they take your case. And as I mentioned, they did, they do diligence, investigated the case before they literally told

me we're accept officially accepting your case. And from the time they did that to the time I was out was a very short period of time. I think, you know, I could be wrong in regards to the time frame of how these things go, but from the day they accepted my case, I think I was out two years later. There was a so though, a sense of urgency because take me to the medical crisis you had. What year

was it, and what happened? In two thousand and eight, I had an aneurism was subacnoid hemorrhage, which is a bleeding of the brain. I was sitting there and I thought it was it was like an instant headache, almost like someone just hit me in the head with a hammer, like it was instant. A couple of guys that always come when the count claimed prisoner asked me, do I

want to play chess? It was three of us. We would play whoever lose, get up and we just play all day and drink coffee and talk about sports and play chess. And we did that often. And they came to my door said coming out to play chess, and I said, give me a minute, and I had a headache. So they came back fifty minutes, like, come on where you at, Like we you know, he's getting ready to lose this game. Come on your next. The third time they came back to the cell to ask me to come.

I didn't understand their words, so I was acutely aware something was really screwed up. And I picked myself up and I walked to the officers station and I couldn't talk. And from what they say, my pupils were dilating, and they you know, my eyes rolled up in my head. I couldn't answer no questions. The shift commander came in and he said, this guy is fun something right. He don't even know his own name. And I woke up in the hospital and I found out it was an

anneurism and almost died in prison. And the doctor came in and was explaining to me. I could hear him, but I couldn't respond that I had an aneurism. And they was gonna take me downstairs and try to tie it off and stop the bleeding. And he, you know, he was brutally honest with me, said, Mark, almost se people that have these don't live through him. So it's a good chance you may not come upstairs from this,

he said. He directed the offices. He said, you want to take some phone numbers and call his family members immediately because he may not come upstairs. And I told him to call those numbers. I don't remember him doing it. And then I asked him for a piece of paper and he gave me an envelope and I wrote on the paper, UM, yeah, uh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, wrote I wrote on the paper. Uh. I just wrote out,

please help me. And I told him to get that paper to Jim McCloskey, because I can really remember like thinking to myself, like, funk, I'm gonna die in here for Croma. Didnt dude, like never mind going through this, but I'm literally about to die in prison for Croma.

Da come. And I could just recall begging him to get that envelope to to Jim McCloskey, and U uh, I remember waking up with just like twenty people in the room just kiss me and crying and hugging me, and the doctor kind of standing there and waiting for him and explain it to him that it's a good chance I may not come back upstairs and explain it to them, you know what the subberact noog memorrhage was.

And he said he's gonna take me downstairs, and I'm listening and that he was crying, and they, you know, they kind of just whisked me downstairs, and you know, I made I made it through that. But Jim McCloskey would later say that that was kind of the catalyst for them to like say, like, we gotta get this

guy to funk out of here. You know. I don't know if it particularly skipped any cases because of that, but they really started, you know, really accepting my cases and started to work it a little more, I would say because of that, because he explained to me, by that time, they was fully convinced about innocence and they didn't want to see me dye in prison for crime I didn't commit, never mind spend the rest of my

life in prison. So I think it worked a little harder on my case, you know, than they normally would have. The letter got to him, and he hasn't framed, and he hasn't in his office. Now, if I'm not mistaken, and I think in my in my whole ordeal, the two things that stick out to me most was that and my mom screaming in court, Like those are two things.

They literally flashed through my my every fucking day. Every day, one of the two of those flashed through my mind, you know, sometimes once twice a week or something, I would just I'll be in a car by myself, and I'll just bail out and cry like a baby and tears my shirt to be wet, and I'll just cry about you know, I say, like, what the hell did they do to me? They took a third in my life, and you know, and I'll just wipe my face and

go on about my day. And it still happens, you know, I don't I don't know if you can say I feel sorry for myself. I don't know what it is, but every now and then it still hits me. And and I'm waiting for that to dissipate and stop, but it hasn't stopped yet. So you know, I deal with it, you know, I deal with it. I can't say I got over it yet. I couldn't say that to you and be telling the truth because I didn't. I can't imagine Mark, it's it's not just something that you get over.

I mean, you had some ext dreamly harrowing experiences. But eventually you did get out of prison and you were exonerated. The work of Centurion and your lawyer, John Thompson, all their investigative work paid off and the case was dismissed. That must have been such a happy day. Can you tell me what it was like when the judge finally said that you were free to go? Um, do you remember the exact words he used? He kept kind of short. He said, you're free to go. He said you're free

to go. I didn't believe it. I'm looking at John and then they're like, what the hell did you just say? Like I really couldn't believe he said that, and you know it, it kind of washed over me. But you know, I remember my whole body just I had pins and needles, you know, or my skin like and he said you're free to go, and anybody went crazy again, just like they did twenty seven years before before a different reason. This time, you know, he had to calm the court

down again. In and John's trying to explain to me, like, you know, you can go home. And it's like John had to explain to me like I was a three year old. I'm like, what the hell does happened? Like he said you could go and um, yeah, I walked out of the courtroom, free man. M hm. And at the at the point you were released, you had four grandkids, cracked and you had met them all while you were in While you were in prison, yeah, it was all

brought to me as infants. Yeah, little babies, yep. And uh I had four and I gotta have seven now. So take me to your life today and the family that you reconnected and reunited with that that Maya had really kept together while you were in prison. I reconnected with my entire family and my immediate family. I see every day if I could, you know, I try to

go see my grandkids every single day. It's hard because I got a lot going on, but you know, we do the regular stuff, you know, get together Sunday dinner and all that kind of stuff. I have more of the house and um, you know, when I went in, I had um three sons. They were literally to one and Quentin was almost a new born. And um, when I got out, they were thirty and thirty one. So we had a lot of reconnecting to do, and and we've done that. We're good. We're in a good place.

And um, you know, I've just been I've been really busy. I keep creating problems for myself, like you know, uh, you know, I watched my father with small business, you know, trying to be an entrepreneur. I'm kind of following his footsteps. So every time I start a little project in it, it's often running and it's I find another issue for myself. So you know, I, um, my first business was a smoothie shop. I opened a smoothe shop. It's been open

for seven years now. And um, I currently have a coach store in in a major mall in Connecticut, and I'm opening my second smoothie shop as well. So I'm constantly, you know, busy, and I literally don't have a moment to breathe. But I take that over the previous twenty seven years any day. All right, we are getting to the end of our interview here, and I want to thank you so much for being here and for sharing

your stories. You know, something we like to do is close this show, um by giving the last word to our guest and Mark. You have been through so much and you have had such an amazing life experience. It would be my honor if you would be willing to share your closing argument with us. My story is, you know, as bad as it as it is, it's not the end of this thing. What happened to me, and and and how it happened to me and the way it was allowed to happen to me is a culture. What

Francis Bloom did is a culture. It's accepted all the way to the top. And I mean, you know, you got judges overlookings, overlooking trials. They see the stuff, they know something doesn't jib, and they oversee the trial and watch it happen. Right, This is a culture untiling unless

we start to address it. Untilling unless district attorneys are held accountable for knowingly wrongfully getting a person convicted and watching him do three decades in jail knowing that their case wasn't a righteous case until they literally put in handcuffs for that. Until then, Unless that happens, this is gonna happen a lot more. Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'm your guest host, Lauren Bright Pacheco. I'd like to thank our executive producers Jason Flom and Kevin Wardace.

Our senior producer this episode is Jackie Polly and our producers are Lila Robinson and Jeff Clyburne. Our editor is Roxandre Guidi. The music in this production is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at wrong Conviction, as well

as Lava for Good. On all three platforms, you can find me online at Lauren Bright Pacheco, and you can find my podcasts Murder and Oregon and Murder in Illinois wherever you listen to podcast and my latest Murder in Miami, is out this January. Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one.

I hope you enjoyed this episode of Wrongful Conviction. As regular listeners will know, the show is usually hosted by Jason Flom, but this fall he invited an amazing group of guest hosts to bring their own talents and perspectives to the interview. I am honored to be closing out this season, which has included hosts like Ear Hustles, er Lon Woods, legal experts Chris Fabrikant and Laura and I Rider, author Gilbert King and Axonres, Patrick Pursley, and Jimmy Dennis.

You can listen to all fifteen guest hosted episodes in the Wrongful Conviction Podcast Feed starting January nine. Pullitzer Prize winning journalist Maggie Freeling is back for a second season. Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling features heartbreaking and inspiring stories of people who have been incarcerated for crimes they didn't commit,

told in Maggie's unique personal style. Season two will shine a light on cases of wrongfully convicted women, a cause that Maggie is passionate about and one that doesn't get the attention it deserves. This is a must listen show for anyone interested in the real life impact of the criminal justice system. Listen every Monday in the Wrongful Conviction Podcast Feed starting January nine,