#308 Guest Host Amanda Knox with Heidi Fero

This is one of those interviews. In January two thousand two, Heidi Pharaoh was a young mother living with her boyfriend in Vancouver, Washington. The couple had two children, a five year old daughter and a one year old son. To make a little extra money, she occasionally babysat to other kids, a four year old boy and a fifteen month old girl named Bryn. One night, Heidi was home alone with the four children when her eldest daughter alerted her about

something being wrong with Brent, the fifteen month old. The little girl was shaking and crying, and Heidi comforted and settled her down to sleep. A little while later, though it was obvious that something was seriously wrong. Brian's eyes had slit open while she slept, and she didn't respond when Heidi tried to wake her. Heidi called the paramedics took Brian to the hospital, where she was found to have a fractured leg and bleeding behind her eyes and

around her brain. Everything pointed to shaken baby syndrome or SPS, a diagnosis that is also a criminal charge. In SPS cases, the caregiver present is almost always the one charged with abusing the child. Medical studies have shown that there is often a leg from the time of the injury to when the symptoms show up, but the legal system hasn't

caught up with those findings. The cause of Brian's injuries could have happened up to four days before Heidi was watching her, but that didn't matter her in the eyes of the law. Brian would end up permanently blind in one eye and paralyzed on one side of her body. Heidi was charged with first degree assault of a child. She was convicted and sentenced to fifteen years in prison, one year for each month of Brian's life. This is wrongful conviction. Hi, I'm Amanda Knox and I'll be filling

in for Jason today as your guest host. I'm an Agnoree, A previous guest on this show, and I also co host a podcast called Labyrinth My Own Wrongful Conviction, and the years of experience I've gained from working in this space have taught me that taking the simplest answer, the one that would so easily wrap up a tragedy and

assigned blame, isn't always the right one. Criminal investigations, like the world are full of gray areas, and that is certainly true regarding the crime that my guest, Heidi Pharaoh, was convicted of. Shaken Baby syndrome or SPS. The diagnosis was coined in nineteen seventy four to describe a triad of symptoms bleeding on the brain, bleeding in the eyes,

and brain damage caused by lack of oxygen. It was meant to deter parents from the then normal practice of shaking a crying infant, but afterwards courts used it to prosecute parents and caregivers for child abuse. The so called forensic sciences are actually more of an art, requiring a professional to interpret the data and draw their own conclusion.

It is a field of study that's still developing. In the case of SPS, new evidence has shown that the triad of symptoms that show up in such cases are not always caused by actually shaking a baby. There is reason for doubt, and Heidi was caught up in this gray area of medical science and criminal law. I invited Heidi and a member of her legal team, Laura Zarovski, who is the executive and policy director of the Washington Innocence Project, to sit down with me. Let's hop right

into it. Um, Heidi, so I understand that your parents were um hippies and activists, and growing up you definitely had that alternative lifestyle happening by the time you were growing up. What kind of life were you hoping for? What did you imagine for yourself? Yeah, so I had kind of So my mom was more of this activist, but my dad was a farmer. It's a start farmer.

He wasn't my biological father, but he's um the man that raised me, and he was just a dirt farmer, very philosophice goal, but still just a good old country boy. My grandparents actually retired from the United States Forest Service, and even though they were also liberal, they tended to be a little more traditional and conservative. So I had these dynamics. And even though my mom's life was what she chose at the time. I really pulled away from

it as I got older. And so how old were you when, um the incident that began your wrongful conviction journey? What what was happening in your life? Where were you? Um? What was going on? So? I was with my ex husband. Um. We had two children, my daughter Rachel, who was I believe for at the time, and my son Derek, who was about a year old. So I was a very young new mother. How old I think that I was

twenty three? Oh, yeah, you were a baby last twenty three. Um. We were just struggling young parents, trying to find our way, trying to establish a life. And I was kind of driving for that, like white picket fence. And because his life had been unstable for him growing up, he was also seeking the same thing. And that's what we felt we had in common at the time. So we were really just trying to establish ourselves. I was home with the kids most of the time. I did work part

time at a furniture store, um, and he worked. My ex husband, Dustin worked full time at a machine shop. We were just young trying to establish ourselves. Yeah, and sometimes you babysat sometimes my baby stop. I did. And how would you say you you felt around kids? Did you like being a mom? Like? What was what was that for you? I absolutely loved being a mother and felt like at a very young age that that was

my calling. I loved being around or kids. I did actually try to go to school, which is hard when you have two little children. Um, but I was taking early childhood development in with the intention that I knew I had a gift when it came to kind of, you know, being comfortable with kids and you know, being able to kind of like understand developmentally where they were at and how to talk to them. And I wanted

to do something with that. However, I didn't have X my ex husband did not support me to go to school, and um, and I had two young children. So I'm wondering, if we can now just talk a little bit about what happened, maybe you can set the stage for us, Heidi, where are you? Who are the people who are that who are going to be involved and what is your

relationship to them? Sure? So we were living in Vancouver, Washington and in a townhouse, three bedroom town house, and so we were picking up any other kind of income that we could, which is why I started working part

time at a furniture store. And he was approached by a man that he worked with at the machine shop and they had became friends, and he let him know that he was looking for child care for his daughter but also her brother, who was four at the time, and this and the son's name was Cade and the daughter's name was Britt. Britt. Yes, so Jason three Cade and Brinn and my ex husband approached me and gave me the offer, and and we thought at the time, we agreed that it was a good idea to to

get some more income. What I want to say is, even going into it, we kind of had some red flags. You know, there was a lot of adversity between the two of them, and it started to come to me that they'd been having trouble keeping babysitters because of the behavioral problems of Kate. And so once we had said yes, then this information started to kind of trickle out. Interesting, so when we talk about behavior problems, like what kind of stuff are we talking about? Anger? Um, he attempted.

I It's hard for me to say that four year old would attempt suicide, but he was actually hospitalized for wrapping a cord around his neck and strangling himself. He became aggressive with my children, and my grandmother was actually with all of the kids. One evening, I had to run to my office for a minute, my part time work office. When I got back, my grandmother was distraught and not happy with the kids, and she was like, You've got to get this boy out of your house.

My son had scratch marks up and down his hands and wrists, and my grandmother said he had had gotten mad at my son who was in his little playpen and had his hands over the top of his hands and was screaming in his face. And when my grandmother went over there to kind of pull them apart, should de pry his hands off of my son's Uh, there's one year old my one year old son. Wow. So

there was just these these things that were becoming increasingly uncomfortable. Uh. And I was concerned, and I was telling my ex husband, I'm concerned, like something doesn't feel right to me, something doesn't sit right to me. And my ex husband is very anti getting into anybody's business or involving any kind of authorities, and he just kept telling me I was overreacting. And you know, we don't need to worry about it,

and for what harm could do? Right and I and and they were increasing bruises and things showing up on Brent. And when we would ask, we were told she fell off a counter, or you know, he tripped her, he had done this or these increasing things and just a very short period of time two months. Um. I think the final star for me was I had a gate at the bottom of our the stairs at our town house, and my sister was actually staying with me, and she was downstairs with the kids, and I had ran upstairs,

and Bryn would always follow me around the house. She wanted upstairs where I was at. And so she's a hefty little girl, fifteen month old, and she I think was trying to climb over the bottom gate, or at least was pulling on it, and so she had tumbled with it because she actually got it loose. I reported it to her mother when she picked her up, just hey, she might have a little bit of a bruise, but I don't think she got her I don't think she

overly hurt herself, nothing major. The next day when she was dropped off, she had severe bruises all over her. And when I asked the mother what happened, she said, oh, you told me she fell down the stairs, and I I was you know, I just was like, my sister was there. We know what she looked like when she left the house and it was not like this, and you know, they were new bruises. So I had called Jason the father and was like, I'm I don't even know what to think, and He's like, she does that

all the time. She blames bruises from bruises at my house. And I think at that point I was just like enough and I had told Jason, I told my ex husband, you guys need to find somebody else. I'm not comfortable doing this. And so we basically went into like a work break. My ex husband and Jason had a two week work break for the Christmas holiday, and we understanding was that they would find somebody else during that time.

So then what happened. So they tried, they tried to find another babysitter, someone to take care of the kids. And you know, I think that at the time this wasn't known, but putting it together, have the experience that Heidi had not being comfortable continuing to care for these kids because of kid's behavior, but they still hadn't found anyone, so sort of as a this is the last time I will take care you know, I'll help you out this time, but you really need to find someone else.

On January seven, the kids were brought back to the house to be cared for by Heidi, and that was that was the evening that all of this process nightmare I think began for for Heidi. So in this evening this was a there were a few things that were unusual about about this um. Actually, when when Brin and

Kaide were dropped off, Heidi wasn't even home yet. She was actually at work, so it was Dustin that was there that received the kids and actually noted it was strange that when Brin was brought in, she was brought in a car seat, and that's not normally how she

was brought in. So she was brought in strapped into a car seat and kind of left there and seemed was described as lethargic and sort of distant, and Derek, who's one, was trying to, you know, play with her, and she seemed really uncomfortable and her leg was bothering her. She was kind of had a little had a bit of a limp. There was sort of she was not presenting as she normally and I want to emphasize we had not seen them in two weeks. Yeah, so it'd been a couple of weeks and this was, you know,

sort of a one off. Already kind of understanding that this was not a workable situation. So as the evening is going on, that dropped off around the in the afternoon, and then later in the evening, Bryn is in a playpen, so it kind of like in a safely downstairs in

a playpen. Um and her brother Katee is there with her, and Rachel is down there to Rachel five year old Um and Heid he's upstairs giving a bath to Derek, who was one at the time, and so Rachel at five was observing what Kade was doing to his sister.

So she had reported that he was jumping on on her, that Kaide was jumping on Brenn who was fifteen month sold and was bashing her in the head, hitting her in the head, and so Rachel was alerting Heidi that this was happening, and so she got Derek out of the bath, went downstairs to try to manage what was happening, and actually called Jason to let him know, this is what's been happening. How would you like me to discipline him? When I called Jason, he told me to actually lock

Kate in a closet. Oh yeah. Um. The other thing that I noted that evening was Brand had very swollen bruises across her abdomen, and when I asked Jason what had happened, he said that Kate had jumped on her from the back of the couch. Yeah. And I think

it's the one piece. It's maybe one of the most difficult, but I think important for the trajectory of the story is that after Rachel got Heidi's attention and she came downstairs, she found Brand in the playpen, but sort of on her knees and shaking and sort of crying but not in a vocal way. So it was just very unusual and incredibly alarming. Clearly, at one point I go, I think I'm on a phone call with a friend. I'm

kind of just, you know, circling around the kids. I had been terribly sick, so my house was with disaster and I'm trying to, you know, catch up on stuff. Clean stuff up and went to check on her, and I noticed that her eyes were like halfway open. I kind of lean in and I'm just kind of like checking on her. There was just something that like started to like alarm me about her demeanor, and um, do you remember what it was? I feel like her coloring, um, even though it was kind of dim in there, like

her coloring looked off. She just didn't look very responsive. And when I remember very clearly when I kind of went to kind of rouse her a little bit, like her eyelids just slit open all the way and there was just nothing. And at that point, like I think I threw my phone and started trying to like I just went into like there's an emergency happening, So what did you do? I took her into the kitchen, UM kind of set her up on the counter in my arms and was trying to splash. I was, you know,

everything was happening fast and extremely slow. At the same time, I was trying to kind of get my mind under control to evaluate and at the same time like panicking because I don't understand what's happening, and very quickly realizing that I don't have any kind of training like to

deal with this. And my daughter somehow, I don't know if I asked her to get my phone or bring me my phone, but she gets my phone to me, and I called my mom because my mom had been a volunteer firefighter, and I'm just like, what do I do? I think, you know, and I think I need to give a little go context as to why I was

questioning my reality. Me in that moment, I had suffered from anxiety and kind of overreacting like if my son choked or and my ex husband had really kind of like made me question my own intuitive sense of things when I think when an emergency was happening, because oftentimes I was really truly overreacting, and so I kind of had started to spiral into that, like in my crazy this reality actually happening right now? Or am I overreacting?

And so I called my mom. I let her know very quickly like what I'm seeing, and she just said, called NIME on one and I immediately called on one one. And what did they say to do? You know? I cannot even remember. Um. I think the only thing I can remember is them telling me someone's on their way, So maybe Laura, you can walk me through what happens next.

So the paramedics do where I've within minutes, so they're they're real quickly, and they find Bryn unconscious and bruises on her body with Heidi had observed those as well when she when she first got there. They took her to the hospital and they found that she had retinal hemorrhage, hemorrhaging in both eyes, and also that her leg was fractured, and they so there were there was just I just want to say, there's no question that that Brin experienced

really serious injuries. There's no question about that. But she's taken to the hospital and it was the I think the investigation. Did you how soon did you learn that they were sort of investigating, cause it was months before you were actually So I knew the next day because CPS came to take my children, Rachel and Derek and Um, and so we knew the doctors had basically been accusing me or saying that this is the only thing that happened um and she would have been the only one there.

We had my children and and just to wrap that up, like we we hired a family law attorney and had my children home in a week. But that initial them coming to take them is when I knew that there was something else going on. I can't even imagine what went through your mind, Like already you're twenty three years old and a child in your care is becomes unresponsive,

Like how insanely scary that would be. But for then the next morning, for someone to come and say, we're taking your children away, Can you take me back to that moment, and where were you, what time of day

was this, what was your immediate reaction? So we had actually Kate had been left at my house after they took her to the hospital, nobody could find his mother, um and then when they did, she obviously went to the hospital, and so we were we waited until like late morning for someone to act come and pick him up, and then I just wanted to go to the hospital. That's the only thing I wanted to do, And so we went to the hospital and I actually went back

to see her. There were tubes all over and you know, life support or life you know, saving measures happening, and bandages around her head. And the last thing I remember of my interaction with her was just grabbing her little feet and like just praying that she was going to come out of this really having no idea what was Again, like my reality is just in trauma mode at that moment. So we leave there and I think I went to my grandparents that just was like my safe, comfortable place,

and my kids were kind of traumatized as well. I believe it was like eight nine at night. UM by this time X husband had got back to the house there and they showed up with two police officers and said we are taking the kids into custody. My children had never been away from me. I felt myself start to panic and just like I want to freak out, but then at the same time understanding like this completely out of my control and I don't want to freak

my kids out, so I would. I was like, I need to do everything I can so that they're not afraid of what's happening right now, and so I've cooperated to not scare my children. Hi there, I'm Amanda Knox. After four years in an Italian prison for a murder I didn't commit, I know what it's like to wind up in a life I never expected. Even after I was exonerated, I felt so alone, like no one would ever understand me. I was wrong. We're all navigating our

own personal mazes. That's what my podcast labyrinth is about. Along with my partner Christopher Robinson, I'm telling stories about infertility, psychedelics, wrongful conviction, and wild adventure. Every episode of Labyrinths is different, some heart wrenching, some hilarious, with guests that run the gamut from comedians to dominatrixes to mountain climbers to scientists. But what's always true is that labyrinth gets real. We go to the hard places, ask big philosophical questions, and

create an immersive narrative experience. So please get lost with us. Subscribe to Labyrinths wherever you listen. I wonder, um that first night when they just automatically came to that assumption and sent cps to your house, did anyone bother to tell them what might have led to Brian's injuries? That

wasn't just blatant abuse from her caregiver. I think at the time, the way that lucid intervals were being accepted, um, and there hadn't been any additional studies at the time, nothing else mattered, Like it had to have happened in these hours, and it would have had to have happened by an adult, and therefore she was the only adult, and so this is what happened. I think that's right.

I think I think there's the state had somewhere in the neighborhood of six medical experts doing testimony during the trial, saying, there's no way that these injuries could have been inflicted by a child, by a four year old child. There is no way that after sustaining these injuries that this child could remain lucid, they would lose consciousness, There's no way. So all of these really conclusive um pieces of testimony

were presented during trial in a way that does seem compelling. Right, This is sort of the roadmap to a wrongful conviction and SPS cases that whomever is with the child at the time that the symptoms are presenting, which is not necessarily connected with they're not contemporaneous injuries necessarily, they could have happened up to days before, and in fact, you

just don't know in many cases. I think in the testimony with regard to the fracture in Brin's leg, it was estimated that the injury happened sometime between one hour and four days earlier, So that is a pretty tremendous range, especially, you know, and so that if the common wisdom is this, it also is um you know, I think one of not to go too far off tangent, but I think it's really relevant to how decision making is made in these moments, that it's this sort of folk wisdom that

the simplest explanation is usually the right one. Is an incredibly dangerous notion because the world is complicated in dynamic and sometimes the thing that appears to be what just happened is not what just happened. So but there is a definite draw and temptation to go with whatever seems most logical and easiest to understand. And while that person was with her right before these injuries, therefore this person inflicted these injuries, and they don't really look too far

outside to what those alternate explanations may be. And I think in this case it's especially um dynamic in the sense that it's very likely that the injuries were inflicted, at least in part by a five year old child. Clearly it was it was a vicious adult and not a child with behavior issues, right Like that's it's just the easier conclusion to draw it's more comfortable and the one where we can attribute blame. Exactly where were you when you were charged? Do you remember how it felt?

I think that I just got something in the mail, UM that basically said that they were finding those charges. What about Brin's parents? Had you been in contact with them ever since that day or the phone call between Dustin and Jason where he was accusing you. Had you heard from them at all? No? Nothing, nothing at all. So I think I want to touch back on why, you know, why did it take the investigators so long

to charge me? And again I'm assuming, but I like to think that they were actually like questioning this narrative. But when you have that many doctors telling you this is the only way, and you as parents, you have six doctors or however many it was telling you this is the only way, and when you're in a position where you're you're experiencing a trauma, you want to blame.

Mm hmm. Okay, So let's talk about the trial. UM. I'm wonder if you can give me a brief brief synopsis of what happened, UM, And of course if you have any you know, memories or anything that you want to to offer I think that would that would be great. Can you talk about the trial and what went down? Yeah, I think you know that the trial is um is pretty straightforward. The state had a theory they did um.

As I mentioned earlier, the state spun a few different theories on the reasons that Heidi would be aggressive with Britain, that she was crying, that Heidi just lost her temper, that there were all of these different factors that there was no testimony to. This was you know, no one was there with Heidi as she was watching the children.

So it wasn't based in anything um except just being a theory that would help the jury to say, oh, yeah, I could see how that could happen, right, because Heidi didn't have at any history at all of being aggressive or um inappropriate, or in any way anything other than just thoroughly nurturing with children and had a very very extensive experience doing that and children of her own, with no experience with CPS, none of these things, and so they kind of had to if they were going to

sell the story. That was the narrative. And again, you know, they had I think a total of six medical professionals testifying about what must have happened, and how this wouldn't have presented um at the trial there were and correct me if I'm wrong, Heidi, but I don't believe there were any medical professionals testifying on your behalf? Is that right? It was It was more or less just trying to

chip away at what the state was presenting. And so even though in two thousand three, there they're likely would have been, you know, some doctors who would have testified, Now, there's other ways that this could have happened, UM, that was not presented at trial. So it was really just sort of trying to defend against the the emotion of uh, you know, sort of presenting these really extensive injuries to this fifteen month old and um, all of their different

various explanations for how that could have happened. You know, you weren't the only one in that house that night. Did the kids testify? Yes? And what did they say? Going back to the week that they took the kids from the home and put them in foster care, Rachel was repeating even then to the foster care mother what had happened and what she had seen. Her story never wavered, so when she testified, it was the same thing kind of what she had witnessed that night and Kaid's behavior.

And Kaid testified as well, his story changed multiple times. Um. And this is the part where I screamed internally. During the trial when he was testifying, they asked him, um, a question. My attorney asked him a question about what was doing in the playpen and he just said she wasn't bathing, and so he had memory of something occurring that night. And I felt like it was like this major moment during the trial, like do you guys hear him like, um, but nothing, nothing never came out of it.

But his story, Yes, I mean he was kind of even you know, the judge had to get on him um too, you know, answer the questions. But these are children. So you mentioned that the defense did not bring forward any medical professionals who could speak about alternate reasons or methods that brain could have sustained these injuries, and that really was what ultimately the case came down to. Do you remember when you heard guilty? When they said guilty, it just kind of it was like the nail in

the coffin. I think I had already been laying in the coffin for the last year before the trial, and that was just the nail that sealed it. I remember being pulled out into the hallway. I remember I was hysterical. I was crying. I could barely stand up. I had heard my mom gasping and breaking down into sobs behind me. I remember running into a juror in the hallway and she started crying. She was waiting for the elevator, and

my ex husband took me down the stairs. We went straight to my attorney's office, which was a few blocks so I I sat in his office on the floor, sobbing, and I didn't understand on what really any of this meant, but I felt doomed. I just felt absolutely doomed. What was your sentence? Originally it was I believe fifteen years um, but they re appealed that and we won on appeal because they weren't able to actually inflict that. I say inflict because that's how I feel, um, And so it

was reduced to ten. And then one thing I will not ever forget about the sentence sing was the judge. My judge stated that he's not at all convinced of my guilt, but that he has to honor the verdict of the jury. Wow, And I just thought, how can he say he's not convinced and still sentence me right now? So I understand you didn't immediately go to prison. Why was that? My judge, with all of his weird reasons, he denied the prosecution or the state's request, um to

do that. And UM, he denied their request to separate me from my other children, and he granted me an appeal bond to remain home with my children while we appealed the case. That's pretty extraordinary. Have you ever heard of that? It is extraordinary. I've heard of it, not in any of our other cases. Um. I've certainly heard of it, but rarely it is UM. And I do think it speaks to the hesitation that that the judge had, and also clearly the judge not being concerned and in

fact prioritizing Heidi spending more time with her children. I was pregnant. I should have mentioned that I was pregnant with my youngest son, Dylan during the trial. Yeah, so you appealed. The appeal was successful in a way. It reduced the sentence, but it did not overturn your conviction. Correct. And it took about three years. So were you hoping three years during the appeals process, did any part of you think, like, this next go around, they're going to

figure out that this is all a big mistake. No, I completely, I completely shrunk away from what was happening. I was pregnant. I just kind of like built up this little burrow or done or walls or whatever you want to call it, and tried to push the case out on the other side. I just wanted to. I never lost the sense of doom. I stopped. I I continued to think they're coming for me. It's just a matter of when, not if, UM, and I'm just going

to be a mom. And I did that for three years, and then what happened, Well, the appeals was lost, uh, and we started talking about that I would have to turn myself in UM and start serving the sentence. What how did you like? What were those conversations like with your family and specifically with your kids when I realized that it was imminent and then I was going to have to say goodbye. I my my boys were too young to really understand, and so my daughter was nine.

I went for a drive with her, intending to kind of take her somewhere and explain to her that Mommy was going to have to go away. But I couldn't even make it to any I had no idea where to take her, so I just pulled over on the side of the road and told her that sometimes when her and her brother's fight, sometimes we don't know who is telling the truth and who isn't, and sometimes we get it wrong, and that this the system had gotten it wrong, and that I was going to have to

go away. What did she say? She started crying. She asked me for how long? She asked me if she would be able to see me. I once I started to reassure her that those things would happen. Kids are resilient. Just wanted to know if she's going to be able to see me, really, and I think I just started talking about, you know what I would do to make sure she wasn't alone, to the point where I I saw book walking through like target that said the Karen

keeping of you, realizing that I wasn't. I couldn't be there to talk to her about things that girls need their mothers there for. And it was like this book was just sitting on the shelf explaining all of that. I bought it for her and took it home to her. What was it like to raise your children from afar? I became something else. Um, My focus was I didn't care how in convenient it made anything else for anybody

out there. I mean, I was going to bulldoze my way through anything and anything to have access to my children and for them to have access to me. I called home. I don't I can't remember a day I didn't call home when my son. I mean, I just I think the person, this, this quiet, more naive person, really became a lot fiercer trying to pave a way for me to just be still parent from inside. So you had to serve your full sentence. It did. Science

doesn't move quickly. When were you released two thousand fourteen? What was that like for you? Nothing that I thought it would look like. Yeah, talk to me. What were you thinking it was going to look like? You know, I think I had spent the first two thirds just imagining returning to that life. My husband and I, you know, we were married, we had bought a home, we had dug in and survived the whole time. We've gotten the kids through this, and I was just going to go

home and pick up those pieces and keep going. And then two thousand thirteen, a year before I would have came home, I was diagnosed with stage to breast cancer and went through every piece of treatment that they will inflict on you, because that's also inflicted. And UM, things started to change between my husband, my then husband and I. I and we were never meant for each other. UM. We were young when we got together, and I think that those pieces started to unravel, that, you know, and

the cancer just really became an even more driving wedge. UM, my values, my purposes, my desires, my experience was so much more advanced than him at that point. UM, the things I didn't want to take for granted, the life I wanted to live, And the more we had these conversations, the more intimidated he was by them. And so by the time I released in two thousand and fourteen, we had almost become estranged. And so when I came home, UM, it was an understanding that we were more than likely

going to be divorcing. UM. I didn't go to our house. I released to my mother's. UM, and we just continued to deteriorate after in that first year, gosh, not that you know movie moment that people and agen or hope for um. How did it feel to pick up the pieces in that kind of environment? Brutal? Um. I very quickly realized I didn't know my kids as daily routines that the No matter how fiercely I stayed involved from inside, there were still so many gaps. Um. How old were they?

There were nine, five and two when I went in and seventeen thirteen and ten when I came home. So my ten year old didn't even remember me being home. He only knew me from inside the prison. How did they react to you coming home? Um? Initially happy, but it was all very overshadowed by the separation between their father and I. It's like we had held it together that whole time and then we're completely falling apart at the end. And my kids went through the that was

more trauma than the prison sense. To be honest, I know it's difficult to say that, but they've never recovered fully from their father and I was divorce. Yeah. Well, I also imagine it's like it's the straw on the camel's back kind of thing. That's like, you've I've already gone through this and then but of course life is complicated and you can't control that. Laura. What was the turning point in Heide's case? Boy, I think that the

well interesting. I think that the turning point in terms of the science, in terms of like what would make relief possible, I think we're still turning. Frankly, we've basically we're waiting for some more published studies. You can kind of like see where that you can see it on the horizon. But if you're not there yet, then there's not going to be anything that constitutes newly discovered evidence that allows you to get back into that case. And that's still what we ended up facing when it came

to Heide's case. That and we finally had our own medical experts there you go. I want to know more about that, Like it seems like if only you had had a medical expert with you at your first trial. Um, who were these experts, how did you find them? And what was their position on the facts of your case?

Dr Patrick Barnes Um was found first, and he had become an outspoken advocate um against the diagnosis, and he was difficult to get I know that he I don't know if he agreed initially to take the case, but finally after a lot of nudging he did, Um, and then dr Apeman came on as well, and I, you know,

I think they were heroes to me. Um, but I'll never forget getting some documents from you know, my attorneys while I was still inside from Dr Aphamn where she just said in her medical you know, professional opinion that these injuries had occurred or whatever it was that had occurred, had happened so many hours before that it wasn't possible

that this had happened at my home. And it was a like just feeling validated for the first time ever seen those words on paper, did you think, Like, I think one of the things that maybe people don't appreciate is that effort someone who served out their entire sentences. You were freed, but you weren't free. You were a convicted Blaine. And so the first maybe hint of hope that you might go back to the life that you deserved was having somebody somewhere say, actually they not only

is not her fault, it can't be her fault. I think it was the first time that like I actually did have hope that something could turn around, that somebody was on my side. And I don't mean like my attorneys are my family. But like somebody actually saw the truth. So how did that manifest itself? Did these experts go into court and throw down their paperwork and say get this lady out of this battled down what is what?

How did this work out? Yeah? You know, we've got a number of clients that are in well, a couple of clients that are in this situation or part of our freedom exonerated family that had to serve their entire sentence before any kind of relief was granted in their case. And so UM, we had filed with Chris Barrett and with our staff attorneys had filed what's Washington States version of habeas, which is called a personal restraint petition. So

we had filed that we called a p RP. We had filed that UM with the new evidence of the change in science. So we've got these experts now who are coming in. This is the newly discovered evidence. As we were framing it, Um, we should Heidi should be able to is entitled to a new trial because there's now this testimony, the evidence that was presented to her her trial. There's now this ability to you know, UM

to challenge that and calls into question the conviction itself. Um, and so so WHOA, that's a that's a big deal, too much. So what does that mean? That's huge? So

it means that for legal purposes. So a lot of people have this question in the post conviction realm, Well, if Charity served her sentence, doesn't mean that doesn't that mean that double jeopardy, you know, would attach And you can't you can't now face any kind of no, because when a conviction is overturned, they vacate the conviction and it's as if legally, as if it never happened. And so it puts you if she were to theoretically be tried again and convicted again and be sent since the

credit for the time she's already served would apply, right. Um. But there was also the possibility that if there were some in some scenarios, there's a possibility that an aggravating factor could be added if they have new information and so um. In another of our clients cases, Ted Bradford, that was something that they were They charged him with an aggravating circumstance. So even though it served as trial, they retried him and he could have gone back for more.

So this is just there's it's not that there's no risk after being out of custody, right, so there's there's still sort of jeopardy that still can attach in that way. So the Court of Appeals did said yes, she's entitled

to a new trial, and then the state appealed. So, just so we're clear, the appeals court vacated her conviction, yes, and said you're entitled to a new trial, and the prosecution comes in and says no, yes, rewind the appellate court vacated the conviction because this date showed up with no argument. They didn't challenge my innocence. They said I filed too late. Ah, so they had nothing to show up and argue as to basically showing that they don't

even have an evidence any longer. Okay, Yeah, So I was pregnant again in the middle of all of this with my daughter Vannah, and you know, just kind of enjoying life, living life, knowing that we were, you know,

in this victory um path. And and then some pictures were sent to my attorneys with no message, no notes attached, and they were photos of me pregnant, taken from my Facebook page, one with my dog and just one with me kind of you know, with my my tummy and my attorneys at the time, I'm a the Innocence Project felt threatened by these photos sent by the prosecutor's office.

They were sent by the prosecutor's office. Yes, wait, wait, wait wait, the Prosecutor's office went onto your Facebook page and like a weird stalker creeper dude printed them out and then sent them to the Innocence Project without explanation. Yeah, if I remember correctly, they were like in a packet of like other legal papers. But there was no reason why they would be in there. That is bizarre. That is so bizarre. Okay, so what do you do with that?

So my attorneys took it as a threat. Um. You know, here, I am trying to enjoy my pregnancy. Um, I'm trying to do all the things that everybody does to just kind of, you know, celebrate it. And the next thing I know, I'm getting to call we need you to shut down all your social media. We're hiring you a family law attorney. We're worried that they're going to come and take the baby from the hospital. They weren't going to let me just b what went through your mind?

I felt like burning down the world. I felt silenced again that they weren't just going to let me be. So I felt intimidated that they were trying to get me to quit fighting. So I met with a family law attorney, and you know, we knew that once we were in front of family court, like there would be not you know, that it wouldn't be an issue. But and they knew that, but just to be vindictive and take her initially and make us jump through those hoops. So what was it like when you finally we're giving

birth to Havannah. I mean, I feel like I had kind of gone back into bubble. Like I felt like I came out of out of it for a minute and felt, you know, like I was living in truth and living in victory and living in all those things. And then that just kind of forced me back into this protective bubble. And so I'm just, you know, I just want to have my baby. I just want to like you know, and UM, thankfully nothing came at the hospital. Um, but were you scared? I was scared. Yeah, it was

not out of my mind for one minute. And um, and I was extremely uncomfortable and even outraged and having to sit there and watch SPS videos and you know, sign paperwork, and just even though I knew this was routine, it felt personal. Yeah, And I couldn't. Yeah, I just I couldn't even fathom going back to a trial. I couldn't fathom being taken away from another child. I couldn't. It wasn't that I just couldn't fathom it. I couldn't

bear it. Yeah, it seems like you've your one laser focus throughout this entire thing is that your kids are everything for you and that you would do nothing to risk being away from them. And the cost of that has been, you know, for Heidi having to be in this limbo where you know, we're basically you know, at this moment, don't poke the bear. You know, what would happen if if, right now, if Heidi we were to move forward filing um, you know, a claim for post

conviction compensation. What would happen? Um? What would happen if we filed emotion with the State Supreme Court to clarify what this ruling means. Since there's no majority, you know, there's since there's there's not a majority opinion that everyone signed on to, what would it all mean? And those are things that could be explored at any time. But the cost benefit for Heidi is the is the real tragedy there. I think that keeps it, that keeps it going. Yeah.

I think people don't understand this about the criminal justice system, that one it could be so weirdly unresolved. We have this idea that it's black and white. It either is or it isn't. And we also like to think that you know, you just you you fight until you win, and it's like, well, at what cost this crazy limbo?

And I think for me, um, you know, after I made that decision, um and a couple you know, another year went by, the decision to back off, to bring my baby home and just tucking um, something else started like developing inside of me. And I think it was a little rebellious. It was like fuck them, Like why do I need their their approval what I like? I know who I am. And it started to become unimportant

for me to even continue fighting. And maybe it was driven out of fear, but like I just started thinking like I'm not going to stop talking and I'm not going to stop telling the world what they have done to me, and I don't need their seal of approval, like they're gonna know this is how I have to live, that, this is what the position and they've done to me, the fear that they drive into me, And I started realizing, like there's so many of us like that that I

need to be a voice for that, speaking of how do you move forward from this? What have you been doing well from that place? UM, I just refused to let them keep me silent any longer. And you know, I really started to realize that I have this gift of connecting with others and really drawing people out into wanting, you know, to live life, because you know, that's all

we can do. And so in twenty twenty one, I became the client support coordinator for the Washington Innocence Project and I'm now one of five directly impacted staff members of an organization across the country. So that basically we just continue to grow our support of each other UM to really truly become like UM a network or a nation of freedom, exonerated persons who are there for each other, backed by the organizations in the network. Well, I've talked

to you guys head off. So I think the one thing I want to ask to wrap all of this up is you both are very passionate, very busy people who work within this world, and I'm sure a lot of people who are listening are wondering how can I help? And there's a lot of need kind of scattered all over the place because we're human beings in this world is very messy as it turns out. So how can people who are listening support the work you're doing, Heidi

and the support that you're doing Laura. How can they come to the aid of directly impacted people but also their families. The first thing that I'm going to say is, don't come unless you genuinely can follow through with what you're offering, because that hurts us the most. We have so many people that here our stories or you know, hear what the you know, the attorneys talk about what's happening, and they want to get involved and they know they

feel it in the moment. But then when we follow through, you know, hunting down these offers, sometimes they just completely ghost us. And that just you know, that's a waste of time when I'm trying to find out if you're going to help us or not, or help our my peers are clients, So don't come if you're not genuine. The things that we need are endless, the things, you know, the resources. We need, dental work, we need medical care, we need we need massages, we need UM. You know,

we need people, we need therapy, we need UM. You know, we need the opportunity you know, if you're a skydiver, take a skydiving. We need to heal and we need to be physically take care of, and we need houses, and we need jobs, and we need um financial support, support as in how to budget. UM. There's just so many things that were behind in because of the time away from society, UM that we're going to always be

be be playing catch up. Yeah, yeah, absolutely echoed. I'm so glad Heidi that you said, don't show up unless you're unless you mean it, because it is a responsibility to offer support. The one thing you always have is your voice. And the world is absolutely run by the people who show up. And showing up in this space means calling your legislator. Call it your in wash Shington, It's leg dot wadut gov. Every state legislature has a website.

Find out by your address who your legislator is and let them know that this is an issue that you care about. You want accountability and prosecutions. You want the truth to matter, not just saying we got it right and the jury over upheld it and we're just going to look the other way. Legislators don't understand, even in places like Washington that are supposed to be liberal, we're not. We're very purple, very very purple. Um. They don't think it's a voters issue. They don't think that this is

something that voters really care about. So if you react viscerally to that statement like I do, call your legislators and make sure they know it's something that matters to you, and tell everyone that you know to do the same. I can't thank you enough for coming all the way out to my home to spend all this time with me talking about the worst experience of your life. I get it. I get it, Heidi, and I'm sorry. All right, should we go play with our kids or something. Let's

let's go do that. I need to hold a baby. Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'm your guest host, Amanda Knox. I'd like to thank our executive producers, Jason Flam and Kevin Wardis, the senior producer for this episode is Jackie Paully and our producers are Lila Robinson and Jeff Clyburne. Our editor is Roxandra Guidi. The music in this production is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.

Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On all three platforms, you can also follow me Amanda Knox at Amanda Knox on Twitter and at a Mama Knox on Instagram. You can listen to my podcast Labyrinths wherever you get your podcasts. Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one.

Next week, on the guest hosted episodes of Wrongful Conviction, Laura and I Reader returns to Rangful Conviction to interview Herman Williams about the murder of his ex wife and the fabricated confession that landed Herman in prison for twenty nine years. Herman was only recently released in September, and this is an emotional conversation about a family torn apart and the many lives that were ruined by this egregious

miscarriage of justice. Laura is one of the top attorneys in the Wrongful Conviction space, bar none, and a freedom fighter who lives and breathe to do this work. Listen next Monday in the Wrongful Conviction podcast Feed