#302 Guest Host Jimmy Dennis with Chester Hollman III

is one of those interviews. On a hot August night in one University of Pennsylvania grad students, A Jung Hope was walking with his friend near Rittenhouse Square in Philadelphia. A white Chevy blazer with four people inside pulled up beside them. Two of them got out of the car, robbed a jung Hoe and shot him. He died of his injuries. A few hours later. A cab driver witnessed the shooting. He told police what he saw and what he remembered of the license place the first three letters

Y C A, just say. A few minutes later, the police pulled over a white Chevy Blazer with Y C A on the plate. They thought they caught the criminal. He was a twenty one year old Chester home in the third, he didn't match the description of the shooter, and there were only two people in his car, not four. Chester didn't have a weapon nor anything from the robbery. Nevertheless, he was arrested and taken to the station. In May, he was senting to life in prison without the possibility

of parole. This is wrongful conviction. My name is Jimmy A. Dennis. I spent years on death road for a crime I didn't commit. I was a guest on role for conviction and talked to Jason about my own experience in the criminal justice system years ago. But today I'll be your guest host. I'm here with Chester home in the third. Here and I know each other well. Our stories overlap and highlight the patterns of misconduct in the Philadelphia criminal

justice system. Chester. As Jason always says, I'm happy you're here, but I'm not happy that you're here. Could you introduce yourself, Um Chester Holman Uh, I've served twenty eight years on the wrong for conviction. I have now I've been home since two thousand of nineteen, and today we're also joined by your attorney, Alan Tarboro. Thank you for joining us today. Alan. Could you introduce yourself as well? HELLI, Jimmy. My name

is Alan Tarboro. I'm an attorney. I've been practicing law since n most of which has been criminal defense and civil rights. And I met Chester and two thousand four, two thousand five. I had the distinction and honor of representative for fifteen years before we actually want his exoneration. Every time I see him and talk to him, uh

outside of the prisiondents just brightens my heart. Remarkable, Chester, I want to ask you, my friend, what was your life like prior to being stolen away for a crime you didn't commit. I was born in Chester, Pennsylvania. Um, that's where I grew up. And then we uh, at some point we moved to Delaware, Womanton, Delaware. You know it was Um, I said it was. It was a regular life, you know with my father worked very hard.

You know, my mother was on dialysis. Uh. You know, me and my sister, you know, we were involved and you know from the time I remember with sports and some type of activity. You know, I went to community college and I started off at a Womanton community college and I moved to Field Up Community College and I was studying actual criminal justice. I didn't know which field I wanted to go into I know it was law enforcement or you know, some type of legal field, but

that's what I was doing. And then I got a job at as an armored car guard. I was driving for Brooks Armor Car. I went moved to Philadelphia down North Philly Broad and Gerard, and uh I was there and uh, you know, just living my life. I thought the world was my oyster. And I think I had all these plans of of how things were going to eventually end up being and uh, just one that one tragic night, it just all came to a crashing end. And uh it's for the next twenty years trying to

get back. When you practice criminal defense, one of the old adages is one of these you hear is like, there's no such thing as coincidences, right, But the other rule is there's always an exception of that case, and and Chester Holman's case is the exception. Chester was the victim of, you know, many things, but most substantially he was the victim of a very very remarkable and crazy coincidence.

And that is in this case, which was a terrible case of a terrible, brutal killing of a student, the perpetrators drove up to this young man at one am in Center City was walking home from a I was walking home from the University of Pennsylvania campus and Um, there were four people in a white Chevy Blazer. Two of them two men get out, two women remained in the car as sort of the getaway driver. The two men run up to the victim, pushed him to the ground, Um,

shoot him and and rob him of his wallet. He there was a woman with him. His friend standing directly next to him witnessed the entire thing from three ft to three ft away. They get into a white Chevy Blazer and drive away. It's one am, it's hot August night. Actually a lot of people out in Center City, and the vehicle is trailed is followed by a cab driver who witnesses this, and the cab driver gets half of the vehicle's tag, follows him through traffic for a few

blocks and disappears. Y z A right, that was the letters doesn't get the numbers as the vehicle turns out to have been rented by I think it was Enterprise. Um, they had three Idea, three identical vehicles on rental in Philadelphia that same day, and the vehicle what what What made this even more astonishing is they bought and put into service these three vehicles at the same day. So when they registered them, they got tags y Z A zero zero one, Why Z A zero zero two? Why

is these zers are three? And the cab driver only got the letters that repeated, not the numbers. As it happens, Chester's driving one of those other vehicles that had been rented by his roommate and had been loaned given to him to use that weekend. He's driving towards the crime scene.

He's stopped five minutes, not five minutes after the murder, driving towards the crime scene, in the identical vehicle with the same tag, and he meets the general description of what one of the perpetrators of like the young woman in the car with him DJ Jones meet met the general description of what of one of the women in the car, and they and they stopped him. And I mean I could imagine you're a young police officer and that's who stopped him. You're thinking, man, I I just

solve this crime. I got h you know, you know you got a car with the tag. You're thinking you solve the crime. Well, at all the people involved in this case, were then convinced they solve the crime. Never Mind that Chester was not wearing his clothing didn't match any of the description the witnesses gave. Never Mind that there were only two people, not four people in the car. Never Mind there's no no proceeds of the robbery, no weapon, and he's driving back to towards the scene. Never Mind

all that. Never Mind the fact that the young woman who was with the person who was killed can't identify Chester. Other than the vehicle. Nothing else lined up. Chester, Tell me about your that night and you were out and what you were doing and where you were going and whom you had with you. Talk about that a little bit for me, all right. Just returned home from Delaware. I went down to my parents house, and I spent most of the day in Delaware, and I was there

to about maybe midnight. Um, I left there and I went home to where I lived on Broaden. Gerard came out the garage, went around front, and I passed Dedre her sister, and uh. I spoke to him, and she dedresked me where I was going and se up to my apartment. So and then I said, what do you want to do now? Because This was my first full day of vacation. I had never had a vacation in my my life on the job. So you know that Monday I was starting vacation for a week vacation in

a paid vacation. Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. Yes, I'm excited, you know I'm not. I ain't ready to go to sleep this Saturday night. I mean, I was like, let's let's you want to go somewhere, but we didn't know where to go. So I was like, listen, I had a friend who lived down on fifty second in Greenway, so let's go down here check out him. So we get downstairs and I had a black Toyota sell like a g T at the time. And then we also had the Blazer, so I asked her which, of course

she wanted to take. So we just let's take the Blazer and put the miles on that car rather than my car. So so we get out, we pull out, and we circle around and we go straight down the broad Street. As soon as we turned onto Lombard, there was I mean, there wasn't a car or person in sight. Man, I've never seen Philly like this. I mean, it was

like like a dead zone. So I knew something wasn't right, but I kept going and uh, I turned the music down and we approached the first light on Lombard and uh, I stopped at that light and I saw a police car going north. So when the light turned green, I proceeded forward, and you know, I'm looking in the river view mirrors next to you know, the lights pop on. Sounds like damn, what do I do? So I pull over and like a half a block down, I pull over and next thing you know, they jumped out with

guns drawn. I know that was very uncomfortable. Yeah, so I asked, you, said, what we did? What we do? She said, I don't know, I don't know. Next thing you know, they're in front of the car with the guns pointed at us. You know, we got our hands up and it took us out of the car and UH put the handcuffs on us, and uh, this is

your nightmare began. Yes, tell me how you felt being arrested and then subsequently um being taken to the police station and what happened in that interrogation room with those police detectives. Well, that that night, after we were put out the car, I was placed in the back of a police car, and Uh, I saw d being placed in another car and I didn't I didn't know where we were going, but later found out we were being

taken to the scene of the crime. So when we got there, Uh, there was like maybe four or five people underneath the street. Like I saw a police officers take these four or five people, whoever whatever it was, go to Deeeder's where she was, and they opened the back door and I saw him looking and then they came back and UH did the same thing to me, and I made sure I stepped my head out so they could see me. And you know, everybody was like I heard everybody said, that's not him, that's not him.

And then Uh, I heard over the police radio saying the guy had died. Take him to take the suspect to homicide. So I said what So when I heard that, I said, I said, you know, my first thought is this is a murder. So you know, I was like, what, So I'm telling I said, officer, I said, you got the wrong guy. I'm talking, you got the wrong guy.

And when I get in the car, when the officers said that you're done now, he said, you're never gonna see the light of day and I was like, you know, I'm just sitting in his back seat like kind the world has happened. So we get to apan race and they take me upstairs and put me in this room that's freezing, and I see this green chair. This bolted to the floor. So they put me in his chair. They handcuffed me to this chair, and I'm just sitting there like freezing, like this cannot be happened. So my

first interaction with the officer was Detective Jeff Pyry. He came in and I'm I'm a little excited, like to tell my story and try to get this all worked out. So I'm thinking it's gonna work out. And he comes in and punches me right in the mouth. He said, you're like killing people in my city, right, you know. I mean. So I was just like looking at him. I don't know what to say or do. So I'm just sitting there and uh, he walks out. I'm sitting there just like stunned, like this is it's just bad.

I'm just saying this is bad. I told him, I said, I worked for Brooks Army Car you know, I mean, I said, I don't know what happened. I said, but I drive around millions of dollars. I'm in and out of the banks Garden State Park. Wait, were there picking up money? I mean, I'm I got three million dollars on the average in the back of my truck every day. Right, you are an honorable citizen. You are a good citizen

of Philadelphia. Care. Yeah, So I said, if I wanted to rob somebody, I'm not gonna commerce on the street. I'm a pull this truck and just keep going. Looking back. Where I feel like I really messed up was first of all, speaking to him in the first place. But I just figured that, you know, since I had nothing to hide, it was okay to talk. And then by me working for Brooks, you know, I thought that would just like bolster my my innocence and showed him I

had no reason to rob anybody. But it didn't happen. So I told him that I had a gun back in my apartment, my work gun, and uh, I told him where it was in my apartment. So I got my badge, my bulletproof rounds of AMMO was in my bottom drawer inside my bedroom. And uh, you know, later on down the road, come to find out that was

all used against me. You did not mess up. We are taught in this country that the police are our friends from the time we are babies, and that we are supposed to go down to the police station, cooperate and do us right. And that's all you did. You did with any actual citizen would do. Now we know that you can't even and talk to them at all because they are not trustworthy. That is exactly what Chester's

mindset was. Because we've talked about this, you were like, you thought they would figure it out, they would work This is gonna get worked out, They're going to get to the bottom. And this is a mistake. At some point, the police stopped becoming detectives, they stopped trying to discern the truth, and they start becoming advocates and they start

to do. Everything they do is to build the case to make it stronger against who they've in their judgment where they've decided is guilty, as opposed to continuing to investigate and try to get to the actual truth. Tunnel vision. Yeah, and that's that is one of the things I've learned in the system is that police the culture or the science of policing more the culture policing is we are

trying to get to the truth to a point. But once we've decide, or we discern in our judgment who it is, everything at that point beca is how to build a case against that person. And they will ignore other evidence, they will suppress other evidence, they will hiw that,

they will destroy it correct, and that's a problem. This episode is underwritten by global law firm Greenberg triaric through its pro bono program, Greenberg Triary leverages it's more than lawyers across forty two offices to serve the greater good of our communities and provide equal access to justice for all.

In the field of criminal justice, Greenberg Triary attorneys have exonerated and Freedom and in Philadelphia represent numerous individuals previously sentenced to life for crimes committed as juveniles and resentencing hearings, and received the American part Association Exceptional Service Award for Death Penalty Representation for their work on five death penalty cases. GT is reimagining what big law can be you as

a more just world only happens by design. So, while let's talk about some of the players in the case, can you tell me about the police investigating the crime. Let's start with David Baker, who was the detective who who took the key statement in this case, which was dear Ja Jones statement, Chester's friend who was in the car. So she signs a seven eight page single space statement extraordinarily detailed about the events of the night. I mean with detail that you would not be able to provide

unless you were there minute to minute. So how does that happen? How does David Baker get the statement? So over the course of the night, the police are interviewing numerous witnesses there there probably were eight, ten, twelve people who were interviewed who were witnesses, including Chester. So they are gathering lots and lots of details and lots and lots of information, and and throughout the night they're going in to see dear just saying you know, you're gonna

tell us what happened. She's like, you know, she sticks to it. I'm not involved. I don't know what happened. I couldn't tell you. And eventually, um, they they get her to relent um. They threatened to take her children away, they threatened to charge her with as a conspirator, that she's going to go to jail for life. The straw. That breaks I think that breaks the camel's back for her.

She she's not getting a lawyer, is They walk in with Chester statement, which of course is completely exculpatory, and they say, oh, your boyfriend has confessed. He's testified. I mean, he's going to jail. You're not gonna help us, We'll just charge you. He's already admitted it, which of course he didn't. So she signs the statement and that's how

this David Baker gets a statement. So so he David Baker was instrumental in in another exoneration that happened roughly around the same time the case was a little was was was a little later Aunt Anthony Raight. Obviously, Jimmy, you know Anthony Ray. Anthony Ray was exonerated about a year before Chester, same detective, same emo um, virtually very very similar situation. But but Jimmy, it's important to note that,

I mean, this is not exclusive to David Baker. I think what you see in the exonerations that have occurred over the past five years and even before is a pattern of this sort of these sort of tactics that existed across the homicide unit. David Baker was by no means the worst of the detectives I think. I think David Baker was was more of a sort of ordinary regular detective who just followed the path that was before him. That's a really good point, Alan, because it's not just

one bad officer. We always talk about these bad apples, but what happens to Apple Core When you have one bad apple, it ruins the whole bunch. And what we're talking about, it's a culture that encourages this behavior and ultimately leads to innocent people like myself and Chester home and having decades of their life destroyed behind bars for something that we didn't do. And so now, Alan, I want to talk about some of the witnesses. Tell me

about how the police built this case against Chester. But first let's talk about Andre Dawkins. He ends up being a pretty important to the state's case. Talk about that. Andre Dawkins was a I believe at the time he may have been homeless, he was inn He was sweeping up a parking lot at a gas station down the block from where the murder happened. And Andre Dawkins, you know, had a very tough life. He had substance abuse issues, he had mental health issues. He had many many arrests

and condections for petty thefts and petty offenses. Um he had open cases at the time. He had a bench warrant at the time, and the police he threatened to be incarcerated in twelve different ways. And basically they had him to identify Chester, make an idea of Chester. But that was Andre Dawkins, and Andre Dawkins recant his idea years later. He was the first one to recant. You know, we met him, I would say about eight or ten years later, and he could not have been more remorseful

about doing what he did. It was it was astonishing how much he remembered. The lead detective, not David Baker was another detective is now deceased. Knew where Andre hung out. He hung around in a certain part of Center City. And Andre told me that for the entire year or so between the arrest and the trial, this detective would show up and give him give him money every week. All of this history, all of his history, was unavailable

to Chester's lawyer at the time. The prosecutor had it, Roger King had it was in the file and it could have been used to impeach him and Roger King kept that he hit it, so the jury didn't get the benefit of knowing about Andre's background and all the reasons why he would not have been a credible witness. So, Alan you mentioned Roger King, I know him very well. UM, So explain a little more about who Roger King was. His reputation in Philadelphia at this time. Roger King was

a bit of a legend in Philadelphia. UM, a very sort of charismatic African American prosecutor. He came from Alabama. His dad was a minister. He clearly was raised with this. Uh, he learned the language of of preaching, let's put it that way. Yes, Yes, he was very theatrical, very theatrical, and was very very effective and deployed that in in the courts in Philadelphia. Um. And and you know, in

a very cynical way. The District Attorney's office would bring him out and assigned these cases where race was clearly you know, they would they would never they would never say it, but obviously they would deploy him in a in a very you know where race was a question. I'll say exactly what it was for you, just for the wrong of conviction. Listening to audience, Um, what Island has been speaking to are the dirty tactics of the

Philadelphia Police Department Homicide Division. Threatening a witness is not uncommon. They did it in Chester case, they did in an Anthony Right case, they did it in Jimmy Dennis case, my case Right. And they would threaten to witness, tell them they put him in jail, tell me they take away their kids, so on and so forth and then and in terms of Roger King, he would lie, he would cheat, he was still, he would pay witnesses. He

was nothing more than an evil man. He was very He was a very a moral person at a very immoral prosecutor. So prosecutor's duty is to do justice, and for Roger King, doing justice was winning at all costs. There was there was no review, There was no reconsideration, There was no reflection should new evidence come up. In Chester's case, we found a hidden evidence that he hit that was hidden in his file, uh that he didn't

turn over. And then and then after the trial when it was discovered, tried to say this was that he wasn't aware of it was accidental. It was in his file with time stamps that showed he had this before trial justice, speak to me about your charges. What what were you charged with? And then subsequently when they took you to the county prison. Because I want people to understand and know that is something to being prisoned, period, but it is a different animal when you are innocent.

Speak to that if you will. I was smarless numb because I couldn't believe it. This was happening. You know what I'm saying. You watch TV all the time and you see all these different things on TV about these police shows, and I like, but you never see this. And I just one of the officers. I said, look, can I use the phone? So I haven't got on the phone, said when I called my mom, Well, when I called, you know, I was so relieved to hear a VOICEMANHI up the Phone's like it was only a

half a ring. She had already put up the phone. And uh, even if I could say anything, she had already told me because it was all over the news. I said, Mom, I we're gonna need a lawyer, and she said, we're already working on it. And um, I said, uh, We're gonna need the best lawyer, and uh, you know, I'm crying back and forth. We both crying. My mom, we're crying. But at the same time I realized and I can't keep probably just you know, being here, I need.

I knew that much, so she said, um, we're gonna get a lawyer. You know, We're gonna get you out of there. So I'm believing that. And I didn't know the uh, you know, with murder charges carried, I don't know. I was looking at life. I ain't none of that. I just knew it was it was. It was bad. And I end up going to d C. D C had no cells and they put me in this hallway

and we were just lyned. It was just guys lined up in this hallway and I'm sleeping on the floor and uh, you know, I'm just looking around like this cannot be happening. I was there. I was on in d C for I think it was two days. And uh, they told me, because I had a homicide and it was a high profile homicide, that I was gonna be moved to a Homesburg prison and that is the roughest county prison and Philadelphi is the worst of the worst. And I didn't know that at the time, and I saponed.

I walked on the block. I saw my face on the TV and I see like the whole block just got quiet, and everybody's looking back at me, and I'm like, oh my god. So they take me and they put me in the cell, all in the back, and they give me a single cell by myself. And I was in itself maybe ten minutes and these old, three old guys came into the cell that you know, and open the gate. You know, I'm thinking, first thing in my mind that they about to attack me, you know, and

you know that's what I'm thinking. And uh, it was three old Muslim guys and they came in there and they just basically told me and we saw your situation on TV just listening. He said, you're gonna be hard. And they gave me to run down of the block. They said, look, mind your business, you know what I mean, Respect one another, you know, don't look at nobody's cell. And that's and that's what I got. That that was

my my lesson. They gave you the layer of land and you you were very fortunate to have those good Muslim brothers. Uh. I wish you knew their names so we could call their names out. So when you get to trial. You know, now know that you are going to trial, how does that make you feel? I was real hopeful, you know, and I said, there's no way that a jury can find me because the jury isn't corrupt like the police officers and the district attorney of these are people of my peers. So I heard a

little bit more hope. Uh So, you know, preparing for trial, you know, watching the whole process unfold, I'm listening to Roger King. I'm watching all his movements and listening to his all his antics. You know, I said, man, this this is gonna be a battle right here. And I was just wondering, you know, if my attorney at that time was just on s time was up for it. I just didn't, you know, I know. They it came to me with a deal, you know, offer me like

the five to ten. They were like, listen, um, just take the deal, you know, and uh give up a shooter and you know you've got three years left and you'll be home. Let me speak to that real quick though, because that's another tactic. Every single one of us who had a high profile case was offered to do, and every single one of us ex honorees in Philadelphia said no, and that's what you did. Chester. Once again, this speaks to his innocence, but it speaks strongly to his character.

So I'll just say this, the deal that was offered was a phenomenal deal given the jeopardy that Chester faced. Life without parole in Pennsylvania is life without parole. There's no there's no loophole, there's no escape valve. I mean, there are innocent people who would have taken the ideal, I can assure you, given given the fear of facing life in jail. So it's no small bit of bravery not to take that. I'll just say that. And for me, that's why Chester is in my phone as a champion.

He's a brave guy, So that's no small feat. Prodrick King presents the state's case. And they have the victim's friend who was standing next to him when the robbery and murder happened. They have Andre Dawkins, whom they were paying to lie for them, and they have your friend Dedrew, who they threatened to get this statement. Alan. Let's talk about the defense and what did Chester lawyer gerald Stein present. So I thought, um, Jerry did a good job, very

good job with what he had. Um he crossed examined Andre Dawkins very effectively again for what he had. He didn't have all of his backgrounds. Chester were you when you were sitting there in that courtroom and you had all these lives being bandied about about you? How did you feel that your attorney had done for you in his representation of you? Looking back, I mean, you know, and going back to that moment um, you know, it's it's all new to me, Jimmy. You know what I'm saying,

It's it's all new. So I'm watching it as it unfolds, and I'm I'm hearing it. I'm knowing these are lies. Uh, And you know, at this point, I'm just like it was a fifty fifty like Alan said, you know, I think he did the best of what he could, you know,

with what he had. But the thing for me and gerald Stein where we differ was that, Uh, I wanted to testify, and I was very adamant on testifying, but gerald Stein had told me that I wasn't going to testify, and he told me that he was going to relinquish himself from the case if I testified. So, uh, my mom and my grandmother you know, they were so trusting

of you know, the attorney who we don't know. But I said, okay, I said, you know, I said, I'm gonna trust this, okay, And I didn't end up testifying. You would literally put in a no win situation because here it is, the decision was yours because it's your life, your life. He said that, Uh, Roger King will tell

your part. He did say that. But my whole, my whole mindset was always from the very beginning, was I have nothing to hide, man, I have nothing to hide, and you just want the jury and everyone in courtroom to know the truth. I did it. I I totally get it. I was gonna say, Jimmy, I was just gonna say, like the conventional wisdom, and this is, you know, what you learned coming up is it's better not to testify. Once you exercise you're right to testify, in some large way,

the case becomes a referendum on your testimony. It's generally perceived to be a very risky move. One bad answer or you get into a bad little line of questioning and you may have a strong case, but you could lose jurors because now they think you're not being honest or you don't have a good answer for one thing. There's a lot of people doing a lot of time because they they chose to exercise their right to testify.

Like I just felt like all these negative things have been said about me that you know, and I haven't had an opportunity to say anything. This was my one opportunity, and I was I was willing to take the chance. I said, they gave me the def penalty of life whatever, I didn't care. I said, you know, I want to be at the sentiment and fight for myself. Even after we found guilty, I didn't never got to speak to it. After I got out of prison. This is twenty years later,

So twenty years of silence. We all on wrong for conviction. Wanted to have you on here was to give you a voice that you hadn't had for so many years. And so we are immensely glad that you and island

that showed up today. Tell me about when you were foundly when you would convict at trial Chester and uh was your family in the courtroom, how did everybody feel, and what happened that day when the jury came back with their verdict man um that was Yeah, that was that was That was I think the roughest day of my life. Actually, uh, my fate of my my future

was right here in these people's hands. And uh, you know, listening to Roger King make his his final argument and you know, my my attorney, and I was just like, you know, this can go either way. You know, I'm sitting here and knowing I'm innocent, but at the same time listening to Roger King, and I'm like, you know, he got me questioning myself, you know, because his his his his closing argument was just ridiculous. You know what I'm saying, I'm just like, did I do it? You know,

because it was just that compelling. I very well know that he came and pulled out all the stops and probably even told the jury and everyone in the courtroom that it was a society right to convict you that if they didn't, they were basically letting a criminal back on the streets, because that's what he has did. And every single closing the argument tried to get the public

to take up arms for justice and convict an innocent person. Yeah. So, after after the after conclusion of all that, you know, uh, you know, I looked at East juror and uh, the jury foreman he looked at me and he winked, you know, and give me like a you know, heads like a head nod, and I'm okay, maybe maybe they do believe, you know, and uh they went out and uh, I think it was maybe like a day and a half. When they came back in, no one looked at me.

You know, it wasn't the same as when they went out. So my my heart immediately fell, you know, into my stomach, and I'm just like, this is not gonna be good. But I still was holding on this a little bit of hope. So the judge you know, read off his spill and then uh, you know, he asked for a verdict and they came back and they read the first degree and it was it was not guilty. So I was excited. I'm like, okay, all right, maybe this is

you know okay. I had then when they said the second degree and uh they said so m hm no, they said, um, they said guilty, and you know, I was just like, you know how how you know how? And then they read off the other charges murdering, you know, I just I didn't understand, and I turned around, I looked at my mother, and my mother's face was just like I can still see it so clearly. I mean, she was just like she was devastated. You know. My father, he was just sitting there and you know, but my

mom's face as well. I'll never forget. So after that, I just did. I heard nothing else. I remember my knees buckled a little bit and I fell down a little bit, and and they asked me if I had anything to say, and I told you, Jesse, they got it wrong. I said, you know, this is this is wrong. I said, you know, I said, I've never lied, you know about my innocence, you know, and I read it all down and you know he had but he never even didn't hear nothing. I said, that was a wrap.

I guarantee. I listen to audience. If you go and look at everybody trial transcripts who's been on wrong for conviction, you will see that when they sentenced us, that we stood before that judge and we said, once again, you're getting it wrong. We're innocent, we didn't do it. We don't be long here, so and so forth. Talk to me Chester about your After all the years go by, what was your lowest point being incarcerrated upstate, and then

we'll get to what your highest point was. But I want the audience to know what was your lowest point in prison for something you didn't do. There were many low low points. I think the entire twenty years a low point. But I think my lowest point was I was losing my mom. Yeah, because she had been my strongest advocate, my my biggest supporter, um and she was like everything everything to me. And uh, when you lose a loved one, it's gonna be tough, really in prison

or not. But being in prison, you know, it's I think it's even harder because, like I said, you know, it's the one person I would I would did anything for my life, you know, and did everything for me. And to go back into that block and not be he to cry and shed a tear and and show this weakness, you know, it was it was, it was. It was hard. You can't do that in prison. You couldn't even grieve. My mom had always told me, you know,

I talked my mom every day. If there's a way to a will, there was a way to go on that phone. I got on the phone and I called her every day, and she always told me every day and end of the phone call, do not lose yourself. And she told me that every single phone call, do not lose yourself, and uh, you know, and then begin. I don't know what that meant, but as time went on, I said, Okay, should be the man and I raised you to be. And uh, you know, that's that's all

I tried to do. Man. You know, I said, these people have smeared my name, They've taking my freedom. I said, you know, I'm going to show them that they're wrong. You know. So I just tried to move by my actions and uh, carry myself in a way that would speak louder than my voice could speak. Did you take any classes? Did you did you immerse yourself in the law? Did you did you have any hobbies? Um to make the time go by while you were fighting to prove

your innocence. You know, I I definitely immerged my myself into the law. I've read a lot of books, did a lot of working out, you know. Matter of fact, I worked out more and probably than that I did eating. I was I was actually the strongest guy in the prison. You know. I had broken so many different records, you know, just trying to take because I was that anger was being directed towards these weights. So I was benching like four fifty five and that's crazy, you know, but what

do you bet you that? What do you bet you now? Maybe one thirty five? You know. Yeah, But it was all about just trying to stay you know, stay sharp the mind and physically. You know, I said, this is gonna be a long fight, so I wanted to, you know, keep my wits about me and my physical health. So

I did everything I could to keep both sharp. So kind of summarize what happened in these twenty five years, you know, because there were pills based on recantations by Deedre Jones and Andre Dawkins, and all of those pills were toned. So I know that it had to be such a dehabilitating process for you and is were looking bleak, but you were holding onto hope. Tell me about when you knew that the ebbs of life were turning in

your favor. Talk to me a little bit about that, chester about when things start to turn in your favor. I'm saying maybe year maybe things I think things started. You know, it was more talk and I think my case was on the front page of the Daily News and all the staff had it and inmates had it, and I'm like, maybe there's you know, maybe things are starting to move. And so this is right around the

time when Larry Krasner gets elected. This was a huge day for people in Philadelphia because we had never had a district attorney speak loudly and clearly about innocent people being in prison and trying to right those wrongs. And one of the one of the most important things he did was he hired Patricia Cummings to have the Conviction

Integrity UNI. She becomes his number one. So, Alan, tell me about when that process took place, in the petition that you wrote and got in front of Patricia Cummins, and how all that came to be. I had our petition drawn up, she comes in. I think I walked over there and handed it to her the day after she started. So she called me about two weeks later and said, you know, I read your letter. We're very

interested in this case. We're definitely gonna take this up, and I've ordered the homicide file for you to review, which that came in about a month later, and then we found that other evidence in the homicide file. I opened the file, and what was, without a question, like the Perry Mason moment of my life. I pulled a folder out. The first thing is pulled this folder out. It's a memo from a police officer who man's the

tip line. The night of the crime, they received an anonymous tip essentially identifying Denise Combs as the driver of the getaway car. As I said in the beginning, there were three rented Chevy Blazers with the same time, roughly the same tag, but Denise and rent was the name on the rental agreement for the one of the other vehicles. And you know, we believed she was involved. Um, we we spent a long time looking for her. Not that it was not that easy to find her, believe it

or not. But when we did, she was very welcoming and we spoke to her many numerous occasions. I mean, she never admitted involvement in the case, but she said a lot of things that were kind of astonishing. Actually, in one of the interviews, she said that was out of thirty eight we had to get rid of because there was a quote unquote body on it, and of

course a thirty eight was used in this case. This that was the gun used in this case, and she says this to us, and that memo with the information the anonymous tip identifying her gets buried in the homicide file never turned over. So all, bring me to the day when you know that Chester is going to be released. Tell me how you felt, Tell me how his family felt, Tell me where you're able to reach out to Chester and let him know that she was coming. Again, we

go to this hearing. The judge ordered this hearing. We didn't know she was going to release Chester that day. We just thought she had some questions and she asked us a handful of questions as well, I want to release him today. Can you give me an order? And Patricia comes to you know, the d A and I look at each other like yeah. We sit down and we write a hand rate in order, you know, give it to the judge and she signs it and Facts faxes it up to the prison. And then it was

like we all jump in our cars. I called Chester's family. We all jump in our cars and we're like, you know, it's like the amazing race we're trying to get who's gonna get to the prison first. You know, that's an incredible story. That's an incredible moment for you as attorney, and I just want to say thank you for being a vessel that helped reunite Chester with his family. What you did was no, no short of being heroic. Um Chester,

how did you feel about that? When Alan is telling you, even before you got released, how did you feel about that? It wasn't really until I got across that bridge that you know, my shoulders straighten up a little bit, because you know, as you already know, Jimmy, you know what I mean. I'm I'm, I'm I'm twenty eight years in and you know, I hear to talk and I hear all the rumblings, but at the same time, it's like,

I'm still here. You know when that that that morning when they called me back to the block and uh, the counselor called me upstairs. She says, um, I need you to pack your stuff. You're gonna be going home tomorrow morning. You know, I thought she's playing. It's like get over there, and she says, uh, uh the judge is called and uh, they're releasing you today. So I'm just like how, you know how and she's like, I don't know, but you're going home. You know, it's just

like you know, you don't, you don't. You know, your hope, but you don't, you know, you don't believe. It's just you know what I mean. So it was just everything just so surreal, and you know, and before I can get back to my cell, which is on the other side of the block, the whole jail had already already found out, and I had white shirts, captains, sergeants, you know, everybody coming to myself congratulate me. And I didn't have it. I didn't have an opportunity to really process it, you know.

So now on the Capital of Security, he's telling me you have to get outside, you have to get out the prison because now you're considered a civilian. I'm like, yeah, I've just been here twenty five years. Now you tell me I gotta go. He's yeah, you got twenty minutes. So they gave me twenty minutes to prepare myself to leave a place where I've just spent the majority of

my life. I just couldn't believe it. And I get outside and my sister and my father and my uncle right there in the lobby, and it was just like, you know, and I still couldn't believe it. You know, I said, man, you know. And uh, when we finally got across the bridge and I got out the car and I looked back at the prison and that's when it hit me, like, you know, finally you know, like you know, and what an't so much about being and free, just about I mean that's the main thing. But I'm

finally hearing my voice and believing me. You know, right, your truth came out. I can tell you firsthand. When you are in prison, all you want is for someone anyone to see who you truly are as a human being, because you don't belong it. Chester. Tell me about your life now, and I hear you have an incredible friends that piles around which you tell me about that a little bit. Yeah, I was. I was. I was very fortunate,

you know. Um. And prior to being released, I worked in the Activities Department, a retreat and uh, they had a dog program where they were we would get dog from Journe County s p c. A. And they would bring dogs in and makes the train and we had a six month old puppy. It was a puggle, very tiny, very tiny. I said, I watched this dog for for for for months, you know what, I mean time she was there and uh, you know, once things started piglingting

up my case. The activities managers Ty Cobeca, he was actually in charge of the dog program anyway, He says, uh, if things ever work out for you, I want you to take one of these dogs. I think you should take Buttons. The dog's name was Buttoned at the time. So I was like, no, I said, I'm a kid. If I get out, the last thing I want to do is take care of a dog. You know, I'm you know, that's the last thing I'm trying to do.

So you know, uh that that day came and I found I was leaving, I was like, he said, we need you needn't take this dog. I was like all right, And I came, brought her home and we renamed her Journey, and uh she's upstairs right now, and I and I gotta and I gotta say this, man, you know, you know, God does things, you know, just it's just it's just

like the way things happen. Man, It's just you know, this dog really, like I think saved my life because it's it's been rough out here, you know for me, and you know, so you know, just having her and norm when we came through and we'll be you know where we're at now. It's just been uh, you know, saving grace for me. And as far as where I'm at now, you know, you know many people know about

the settlement. You know that was that that occurred. You know, that brought on a whole another layer to my life, a lot of difficulties. But that because like they say, more money brings more problems, um and uh And that is the truest statement I think I've ever heard in my life. I'm not complaining about my life because you know, like I said, where we came through and we had to overcome to where we are now. You know, I just take it all in straight and I'm grateful for

it all. But at the same time, man, it's it ain't as easy as people may think, you know, going through all that, and then they think because they give you the money that life is good now, and uh, you know, you know, it's just it's it's a lot of process. You and I, you know, uh talk about these things often, and I know you have a great deal of wisdom. I want to know what you think I will wrong. For conviction audience can do to help

people like us and stop this from happening to other people. Um. And the first thing that comes to mind is uh getting out to vote. You know these politicians that are you know, that have been there and these uh forever with these old school uh mentality. Uh, you know, people who don't believe in justice. I mean, I don't understand, you know, I have a hard time understanding how you know people are so hard on l Crescent. No one's perfect.

We know that already, you know, but you know, just seeing a few of the things that he's done in terms of trying to write the wrongs. You know, you know Innocence Project. You know, it's one thing, you know, to get involved, Innocence Project. But there's only so much we can do there. And Alan, do you have anything to add I'll say the same thing Chester just said. Vote. And I'll tell you we did everything. We got recantations, I got news stories, we found the other witness, I

found everything. Did you know what made a difference Larry Krausner got elected. It was willing to look at the evidence in a different way. Politics is what made the difference. Jimmy, you and Chester are free because of politics and the old way of looking at things, doing things. The old way of running a d a's ars prosecutor's office was not going to ever change any of this. The only way things are going to change is to is the

is the support and promotion of progressive prosecution. Period. So Chester, we have something on wrongful conviction called closing argument. So I'm going to hand this mic off to you, and I want you to speak from your heart and tell the wrongful conviction audience how you feel and what you think. Well, I mean, um, and if I can say anything, I was just like, it's just about bringing awareness to uh,

wrong for convictions. You know, prior to you know me enter in prison and and and and seeing it firsthand, you know, I never would have thought these things are possible. You know you look on TV and see people being arrested, and you know they paint this picture of guilt before innocence, and uh, you know, I just want people to be aware that before we jump to conclusions and and uh, you know, just to to listen and to the facts

and and and learn more about these types of things. Um. You know, in regards to the law itself, these people have committed crimes, you know, these people that allow these things to happen. Holding people accountable is to me, it is more than anything. And uh, these police officers that still my life, your life. So just just make I say, bringing awareness to these types of things. And uh, you know, I thank you guys for having me and Allen here today. I thank you Jimmy, you know, you know I got

a lot of love for you. You know, whatever I can do to help you, man, I'm always gonna be there for you as well, you know. So I just thank you all for having us. Thank you for listening to Wrong for Conviction. I'm your guest host, Jimmy Dinnis. I'd like to thank our executive producers Jason Flum and Kevin Worters. The senior producer for this episode is Jackie Paul and our producers are Lila Robinson and Jeff Clyde Borne.

Our edit her is Roxandra Guidi. The music in this production is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at Wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On all three platforms, you can find me on Facebook is Jimmy Dennis on Instagram at Jimmy Dennis Music. I'm also an R and B sanger songwriter and you can find all my music on iTunes or wherever you get your music.

Wrong for Conviction is a production of Lava for Good podcast in association with Signal Company Number one. Next week, on the guest hosted episodes are Wrong for Conviction, Pulitzer Prize winning author Gilbert King will interview Robert Dubois about being sentenced to die by electrocution for a crime he didn't commit. Gilbert is the host of Lava for Good's newest documentary podcast, Bone Valley, which follows the story of Leo Schofield, a man wrongly convicted for the murder of

his wife near Tampa, Florida. Leo is currently incarcerated at Florida State Prison, the same prison where Robert Dubas was held for twenty eight long years. In this fascinating interview, Gilbert will talk to Robert about the shoddy police work and junk science that leaded Robert on death route. Listen next Monday in the Wrongful Conviction podcast Feed