#300 Guest Host Earlonne Woods with Caramad Conley

Now erl On you probably know his name because he's the guy who created and co hosted the groundbreaking podcast Your Hustle, which he produced while serving time in San Quentin Prison. So thank you for your continued support. We still have tons more work to do and we hope you'll listen and get involved. Back in the car, Connelly was living in San Francisco, California, that was doing a crack era and police was doing everything they could to stump out gang activity. On April eight nine, there was

a drive by shooting in Karraman's neighborhood. The bullets injury Levin and killed two Charles Hughes and Rowshawn Johnson. Of the eight people who were allegedly involved in the crime, only one person, Paul Green, was convicted and sentenced. The pressure was built in for police to find other perpetrators. About a month before this crime happened, Karamad had gotten

into a fight with another kid from school. It landed Karamid with an assault charge, so police created a narrative around his fight that it started a whole series of violent retaliations resulting in the drive by shooting. Yet police had no evidence beyond one witness would claim he heard Karamik bragging about his involvement. Still, Kara Mood would be convicted of to murders and ten attempted murders. He was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole.

This is wrongful conviction. I'm Herlin Woods and I'm a co host and co creative a podcast called ear Hustle, which brings you the daily realities of life inside prison shared by those living it. And we also do stories from the outside, posting coarceration. And today I have the pleasure of guest hosting Wrongful Conviction. And I'm here with a cat named Karami Connley and Carami. I would like you to introduce yourself to the people. Hello, everybody, what's up? Rline.

Glad to be here. I'm excited about talking about the story. My name is Karama Conley. I'm from originally Oakland, California, born and raised, raised between there in San Francisco, California. So, Karra mod um, can you describe your life prior to being arrested. I was born to a family a nine. I have five brothers, three sisters. Our neighborhood was predominantly

African American working class families. Um. Everybody in the neighborhood knew each other, you know, mother's, father's you know, it was a great environment to grow up in. Cool and and let me ask this. You know you grew up in San Francisco. How was like law enforcement in your neighborhood? You know, did you have any prior run ins with him or any anything leading up to nah And And

that's a great question, right. And it's interesting because my dad was in the military, so we had already kind of been in still with that kind of country duty, honor stuff. But my dream really was to be a SWAT officer when I was young, right, back in those days, they were considered the good guys. And I've always seen police officers like that. Did anything derail you from becoming a SWAT officer? Yeah? Yeah, when I became a teenager. Um, so you have to tie in what they call the

crack era, right, the drug era that changed everything. That changed our whole community, That changed our perceptions of like the police. That changed everything. You started seeing people in our community, in our neighborhoods, like who started kind of indulging in the selling of it. So that's when you started seeing like, wow, look at that. You know, he got a new car. You know, you start seeing all

these different things you've never seen before. So that's when I started understanding like there was a shift going on in our our society and particularly in our community. You started seeing, you know, police more at the schools. You started those kind of interactions. So what we didn't know, meaning like the kids in the community, teenagers, was that the police officers started creating these narratives around our community.

So they started calling them turfs, right, And we definitely believe that they were trying to take a page out of Los Angeles politics gained politics and stuff, and that there and if you from like this area, you were part of this turf and then this turf and people used always, uh try to correct these officers and journalists when they used to use these turns, and people used to be like, what are y'all talking about? Like we

ain't this ain't no turf. So the police are creating this narrative, But did you identify with any games sunny Dale or Bay Point or any of that, because it wasn't that type of thing, man, Like, the only ones that created that narrative that was trying to put us in that was police officers. Okay, So I want to move into the story a little bit. In March, you get into a fight with a friend from school named

Jeff Franklin over some gossip going around. And then later on that same day, in an unrelated event, there's this other crime, a guy named Peter Lee is murdered. The police connect these two incidents, I guess because they happened on the same day or something. So tell me about your first interaction with the police. How did they connect these two separate things. This is where I could introduce uh Earl Sanders and Napoleon Hendricks because they were there too.

African American veteran homicide detectives, and uh, they were always wearing suits and these like for Dora Brims, and uh, they came to my house. They never called me to come down there. They came to my house. And my father was always a straight shooter, and he's like, well, you know my son, I know, he doesn't have anything to hid, so he didn't mind them talking to me. They started asking me about the situation with Jeff, like, and I said, yeah, we had an altercation and you know,

we resolved it. We made peace and everything was cool, and uh, they started alluding to Peter possibly being murdered because of the artercation I had with Jeff. Right, this was their narrative. Like, so I was like, what are you talking about? So it was like they were trying to say what you did proceeded this. So they they started asking me about all these different people and I'm like, yeah, I don't I don't know who you're talking about. I

don't know this person. I don't know that person. That's when they kind of formulated this. Uh, I don't know. I think they were they were piste off that I wasn't really helping them. The narrative that the police were pushing was that this is all gang related. And then about a month later, on April, there was a drive by shooting in Bay View in your neighborhood. Eleven people were injured and two people were killed, Charles Hughes and Roshawn Johnson. And it's really a terrible crime. It's sad.

But how did you get wrapped up in all of this? There was a lot of pressure on the police to solve these crimes. You know, people in the community were coming out and they were like fed up with this stuff, and they were you know, now the police are really just going crazy, like okay, because now they're saying that this was retaliation for Peter Lee being killed. So now they come back to me again. So they now they come in with a different energy, like they're threatening me

and all this other kind of stuff. So my pops was like, look, I'm not letting him talk to you again, you know what I mean. So that was it, and uh, but they were like, look, we're gonna we're gonna come back and get him if he doesn't help us, you know, get you know this, that and the other. So but in July they came back with a warrant. So they charged me with that assault and that at that time, but they had me thinking they were charging me with murders or whatever. So I'm like, this is why you

are arrested me. I'm like, well, that was already resolved, but the district attorney had picked it up. And so what I learned later was that because I had no criminal record I had, I was not even in the system. I said, this is a way for them to get me in the system under paperwork, right, So you know, they booked me, and ultimately I pleaded totally. Even then I told them, yeah, I did it. I did that.

We had an issue and that's what happened, and we resolved and I wasn't trying to hide it or nothing like that. So that's they end up giving me three years probation and I spent like thirty days in jail in the county whatever. They gave me three years probation. So meanwhile, detective Saunders and Henders with their suits in there for door brims, they end up arresting a guy named Paul Green for the drive by shooting on April eight,

and doing Paul's trial in you were called to testify. Yeah, it wasn't around till two when Paul Green's trial started that I get a subpoena to his court. So I get an outside lawyer, Donald Bergerson, who would later become my actual attorney, but I get him to represent me on this subpoena because I'm like, I don't have nothing

to say to these people. So Paul Green goes on trial, You get subpoena and hired Donald Bergerson to representation, and then at some point you start to realize that there was more to this, that they were going to try to wrap you up in the same crime that April eight drive by shooting that killed two people. Do you remember, member,

how you first heard about that. The rumblings started coming, Like my lawyer started talking to me about hey, uh, you know they're talking about this guy, like they have some evidence against you for this, and I'm like, well, what what that's just when Clifford Polk enters the picture. He was he was probably four years younger than me, But Clifford Polk was a guy who was really friends with my younger brother that he was friends. We met

he was in high school. He was raised by a single mother, so we kind of took him in as a younger like siblings, so to speak, because that's how my father was with the kids in the neighborhood. He would just you know, be a father figure to a lot of these kids. Clifford Pope, now he's a pretty important character in the story because it's ultimately his evidence that they used to convict you. What did he say

to the police to tie you into the crime? Poke brought in another mutual friend of ours name Batis Batis Richardson. He said that Batis loaned me a weapon, and then when Batiste went to retrieve the weapon back from me, like hey, let me get that back, Cliff said that I said to Patize, oh you don't want that man that got cheap Charlie name written all over it, and Chief Charlie that's Charles Hughes, one of the people murdered on April eight. Cliff just made up a lot of stuff.

He just started making up stuff like I was selling guns out of my house and he was just making up stuff, right, And then they investigated Batist of course, to collaborate what Cliffs said, and of course Patisse was like, what you know, this is bullshit, Like this did not happen. I don't know what this dude is talking about. So my attorney told me, they want you to turn yourself in, and I said, I turned myself in for what he's like, they have a charge against you, like, they have a warrant.

And it was probably two months before they finally came to the house while I was there and arrested me. Okay, so now we're getting into the trial. The prosecution's main argument was the testimony of Clifford Pope. There was some back and forth between both sides as to whether Pope was being incentivized by the police to implicate you, but Pope said on stand that he wasn't in witness protection and he wasn't getting anything in return for his testimony.

And this is really important and we'll get back to that later on. So all this is going on, and you actually decided to testify in your own defense, something that you rarely see. Why don't you decide to testify?

So one of the primary reasons why I testified is because one, I didn't do it right, and I wasn't afraid to get up there, and I knew whatever the district attorney was going to say about me like I had already admitted to it, meaning like my prior saw it or whatever it was like, so I knew beyond that anything he tried to allege against me, he would

be just making it up. And I felt like I wanted to I wanted to speak my piece, like I wanted to be able to say no, I didn't do this, And and getting up there, I mean, how did how did you feel about to try to how did you gauge the jury that you think they was they was listening. I just figure if they hear this information, they're gonna side with the truth. So the way that the d A spun it though he painted a very effective picture, all they see is what's on TV. And it's like

like what I once thought police are good. Uh, if you weren't bad, you wouldn't be coming from out of that holding tanking this orange like you would be coming from out here, Like it's all those dynamics where at play, and and going through that, going through that trial, you know, and I'm I'm gonna speak for from personal, but going through a trial, you don't know what's going on, you don't know the law, you don't you have no clue on whether it's up down whatever. You're just sitting there.

How long did your trial last? And when you was convicted? How did the words guilty hit you? Okay, so my trial lasted I would say, I wouldn't say it lasted longer than two weeks. They tried to offer me a deal. So my lawyer came in there and he's like, I know this is the part that you know, you you don't we want to hear about and you know, but I have to do this, you know, like I have to offer this, and you know, Jennin is talking about a deal here. And I said a deal like what

they're gonna let me go? And I don't assume what like? And he's like, whoa, no, you know. Uh. He said, if you wanted to take thirty years, you know, uh you could, I said, what thirty years? Like? So then my lawyer went down to like fifteen years, right, and then he went down to like ten and I said, I'm not taking a day like I'm not I'm not taking a day period. And I told my lawyer, I said, man,

they're about to find me not guilty. And we went out there and they, you know, the foreman read the verdict or gave it to the judge and the judge said guilty. It was a surprise. It was a It was kind of surreal. So I just kind of sat with it, like, Okay, um, what do we do now. This episode is sponsored by the A i G pro

Bono Program. Hey i G is a leading global insurance company, and the A i G pro Bono Program provides free legal services as well as other support to many nonprofit organizations as well as individuals who are most in need, and they recently announced that working to reform the criminal justice system will become a key pillar of the program's mission. Once that happened, uh, you know, it was just guilty or all these charges, right, So you also have your lawyer.

When you hear your lawyers say, your honor, you want to put this in a record to appeal to this. So that means you have one last chance, which is you can go in front of the judge and then the judge can actually just do the right thing, you know, like I'm gonna Oh, I don't believe that the burden of proof was met on the side of the prosecution, and and that's what I was hoping for. And I really thought that that was gonna happen. And I spoke

to the judge. You know, I told the judge, I said, listen, all I expected was fairness and impartiality, and I haven't gotten any of that. So I'm appealing to your fairness and your impartiality in this matter. That's what I said to him. And uh, he gave me all these life sentences, like so what what was your what was your sentence? Um? So I ended up with twelve life sentences to without parole plus twenty six years? Damn hell long? I mean, I know I might be joking, but ship, how long

would have had took you to do all that time? Well? And then I would have had to die once, come back, dieg in, come back, died ten more times, come back, and then do twenty six years. That's what it meant like the ship didn't make no sense to it was surreal it did. I'm like, you could have just gave me one life sentence and it would have helped me, but it it essentially was a death sentence. That's basically

what it was. I used to claim on one of my partners, he had two hundred and ten years to life and ship under the three strikes law and we just be like, man, so when you get out, okay, so you you on your way to prison from the county jail, and I you know, it's a trip. Man. Uh. You know, I've always wondered about, you know, innocent people in prison. You know, I was pretty much guilty for the uh my actions, you know what I'm saying. But I always while I was in prison, I used to

always wonder what an innocent individuals. So I gotta ask, man, what was prison like for an innocent man? Man, Look, I watched that movie before I ever went to prison, before, like it was American me and I watched some other kind of penitentiary movies, and that ship was just like scary as fun. Right. So I was like, god, never, I never never want to go to prison, right. And

this is before any of that stuff. Like it was just that environment, that culture, right, and San Quentin being the one place, especially back then, because when I went to San Quentin, like the inmates were like the counsel they did all the intake, you know, like it wasn't you didn't go see a counselor they did it. They gave you your CDC number, you know what I mean, your picture looked like you wanted them Alcatraz Island inmates. Like,

so that's what I had. That was my experience. Like they did a special transfer because I was now like essentially a death penalty kind of case with them ailwops, so I didn't have to wait for the prison bus and load up. They literally got me out of there the next day, Like I didn't get a chance to say bye to nobody, Like as soon as I was convicted the next day, I was on that butt on that van on my way to Quentin. And what was your mindset like going in with the ail wasp sentence,

you know, life without the possibility of parole. It didn't I didn't. It didn't compute because it didn't make sense to me, Like I didn't understand what that meant, Like this is my first time going through something like this, So I didn't understand that it meant you're gonna die in prison, you ain't never going to the board. I

didn't understand any of that. I just assumed at some point somebody gonna get me back, you know, my lawyer or somebody gonna find something that's and and again we had an appeal in so you you hanging on those hopes like that your appeal and and uh so I I just told myself immediately, I said, you know what, I'm I'm just gonna meet this environment how it meets me. Like that's what I'm about to do. I have to ask, man, like, like what was what was like a bad day in

prison for you? Every day? There's not a prison I went to. I'm talking about By the time I left prison, I have been to like ten different and all maximum security prisons because of my ail walk everywhere up north to down south by the Mexican border in between, like I've been to all of that, and I tell you it was it was because of the type of sentence I had. It meant that I was only going to be around what they call the most violent kind of inmates,

the most you know, all of that stuff. And uh and it and it lived up to every every word of that. Like two years after I was in prison, I was almost murdered in an unprovoked attack by some white supremacists. I just just real quick what happened. Me and a friend of mine was just like walking the track and and uh it was like these five five guys, they were Nazi low riders as they call them in

lars back then. And uh, they all had flat pieces of steel like and two of them came at my partner, like two of them, three of them came at me. And uh, thank God, like divine intervention in my fighting skills, because I did receive like some puncture wounds, Like I got about nine puncture wounds out of it because it was three of them. But they didn't hit no vital Uh, they wasn't able to hit vital organs because of the fact that I was fighting back um and the guard

for shooting and stuff like that. And uh, in turn, you know that that put me in like a war mode mind, like when your security has breached like that, Like it's like what happened when I was on the streets, Like my perception changed from that point. So so it's safe to say you've seen a lot of violence in those level for prisons every day every day. I was just like you. I looked at the Court of appeals as a way to get out. How did how did

it work out for you? And and and in post litigation that you win your appeals denied I was denied all the way through around two thousand one, Uh, two other guys that I grew up with, John tennis In and Anton Gulf JJ and Sodapop That's what their names were. So around two thousand one, John's case started getting some traction in the news. A journalist by the name of A. C. Thompson who had worked for the Bay Guardian news at the time. So John Tennison's brother, Bruce, always believed that

his brother was falsely convicted. He decided to I guess he connected some kind of way with this journalist, told H man, my brother is innocent and this and that, and the police are lying. And so A. C. Thompson decided to investigate it. He discovered that the exact same homicide detectives Earl Sanders and Napoleon Hendricks that had done that to me had prior done it to John Tennison and Anton Golf. In their case, there had already been

a videotape confession of the person who had already killed. Uh, the people that John and Anton had been convicted of, they had already had a videotape confession of the person who did it, admitted to it. They suppressed it. When the Bay Guardian newspaper came out with John Tennyson's face on the front of it and like questioning whether this man should be imprisoned. His brother, Bruce worked for this like car lot. He was a car lot attended and next to his car lot was the law firm Kecker

in Vaness. So what Bruce did was Bruce took all those Bay Guardian newspapers out that thing and he put them on their car windows. And they had happened to have a pro bono wing in their uh, their firm. So they investigated, and sure enough they found out that there was a suppressed tape and that these two guys have been framed. So at the same time in two thousand three that they were being exonerated, I received the

letter out the blue from the Innocence Project. I sent the letter to my father, and my father gathered up all my information that they were requesting and sent it to him. So, um, the Innocent Project, once they connected the dots and seeing that we had the same homicide detectives that had done all of this, they was like they started coming to visit me. Yeah, this is a

crazy kind of story. The Northern California Innocent Project ends up taking your case and they bring it to Kicker in van Ness, hoping they would have some more information that could help you out. They end up talking to this lawyer, a guy named Daniel Purcell, who worked on John and Antoine's case, and Daniel Purcell says to this day, he said, if it wasn't for your name, you would still be imprisoned. He said, the name registered. And he said, like,

where have I heard that name from? During the investigation of John and Anton's case, they sent an investigator, they had a motion for discovery and and I guess the city said you can go check this storage unit in these files and whatever, you know. And he had to go under, like he had to go under the debris and all of this stuff to pull these boxes out. It just so happened to have new Meris boxes with my name and all kinds of other stuff connected to it.

And Dan was like, So the first thing Dan did was he contacted my old attorney, Donald Bergerson, and he's like, hey, Don, like, you know who did tell him who he was what they were doing. He said, yeah, so we have these boxes and it has all these receipts and this and this and this, and my lawyer at the Donald was

like I knew it, I fan knew it. He was like, and then it made sense to me because back when I was in trial, this man used to file so many damn motions, right, and he always alleged that the district Attorney, Alfred jian Ninny was withholding information and not turning everything over so much so that we had to have a special hearing in order to resolve it once and for all. And that's when Giannini went on the record and back then and was like, your honor, we

have given. I've given and furnished Mr Bergerson with everything just to any other. So now we got all this suppressed evidence sitting right here. So what ultimately came to light from all those boxes of suppressed evidence was that Clifford Pope not only lied when he named you, but he was actually paid to do it. In the trial, Clifford said that he wasn't in witness protection, but the evidence in those boxes proved that he was. He'd been paid a nice chunk of change to name you in

this crime. And then in two thousand five, ten years after you were sent to prison, cliff free candidate's testimony, he said that he was telling the truth now because he could no longer live with the guilt of you being in prison for a crime you didn't do. Do you hold any animosity towards him? I never saw a Cliff as anything other than like a victim. As like me, Cliff is a young kid, you know, and he's scared

to depise homicide. They do the same assume the same thing that they tried to do to me to him, But it worked on him, and your lawyers from the Northern California Innocent Project ended up taking this suppressed evidence us all the way to the California Supreme Court. Yeah, by two thousand nine, the California Supreme Court, which I think this happens less than seven percent of the time with l watch cases, but they granted me an evidentiary hearing.

So for the first time in all these years, I was able to come back in two thousand and ten for a week and we were able to depose the district attorney and I think Hendricks, the Sanders partner, had passed away in oh eight by this time, so they were also able to interview and depose Earl Sanders, and uh, basically they just was blaming each other, like Alfred Jennenny was saying, no, they never gave us this stuff. Sanders

was saying, we gave Jenny and all this stuff. And I'm just sitting back like whatever, y'all still fucked up, like it ain't y'all the Hall Live period. So Judge Marta J. Miller, she uh, she looked through it, and she saw through it, and she ultimately, uh, she vacated my conviction December fourteen. I believe it was so caramel. As you know, I was commuted by Governor Brown. My life sentence was commuted gone. And I know what I felt like, I have to ask you this, how did

you find out that you were getting out. I was just in the cell like they had sent me back to prison, and I was doing what I do and uh one of my friends came up to me and he was like, man, you know you're going home, right. I was like what He was like, Man, you're going home, and he slid the newspaper, the San Francisco Chronicle to me under my door and it had my article right there on the front page. Judge vacates conviction, right. So

I'm looking at this and I'm like, oh ship. So then you really start feeling like getting me out of here right now. You know what am I doing here? Like you think you free now right? Trust, I know that feeling about Let me out now. But the d A can hold you in there to see if the city wants to retry the case. But luckily for you, the d A at the time, Kamala Harris, the one that wants you to wait and see what happens with the city. She was leaving office to take a new

job as the California Attorney General. She was being replaced by a new d A, George Gascone. The first major order of business he did was dismiss my case outright, like just straight up just dismissed it, and uh, and then I would be released January twelve, January Gascon. Absolutely, that's a good thing right there. And you you have to explain, man, like what was that day like when

you first walked out, Like what did you do? Of course I was elated to be getting out, but now it's like fuck, like you know, I'm out of prison now, what you know what I mean? Like I'm coming out of a controlled environment, extremely controlled environment to just basically be able to do what I want to do. So it was overwhelming like it was scary. It was I was happy about it, um, but it was it was just like I gotta take this one day at a time.

But then ultimately I just to you know, it's like, you know what, I'm gonna take this head on out here, you know. And uh, that's what I did. I never looked back, you know. And now that you're free, what are you doing? Well? When I first came home, like I was, I was, Uh, I was always like going to different law schools, you know, and talking talking to the first and second year law students. And I was doing this like all over the state, Like I was

just going everywhere anywhere I was invited. Like I love talking about this story because it feels like it almost feels like it's not me I'm talking about, you know. Um, And I kind of I kind of always say I was already free mentally, sparitually, I was already free. They just physically had my body. So I was very focused, like prior to getting out of prison, like, I was very focused on how I was going to live my life,

what I was gonna do. One of the main things was to be able to get back into prison, to be able to walk back through that visiting room as a free person, you know, with people that I literally grew up with in prison because I spent at that point half my life in there. So that was one of the most empowering things, was to be able to get approved by the CDC to come back in and visit, you know. And uh, and that's where I met you. Yep, that's exactly what happens. I was serving life sentence and

you came in and that's how I met you. Yeah. So from that point it was all about, Okay, I know all these great stories and different people in prison, and I always say prison is one of the most untapped markets for creatives. So uh, in sen I ultimately created a production company, Lifted Clouds, and uh the goal there was to just bring a lot of guys content, um books, you know, personal stories, you know, all of this to the to the public, you know, because it's

some amazing it's some amazing people in there. Camel Connelly, We thank you for definitely telling us your story of being appreciated evicted in California, man, and I'm glad you out here like the one your thing man, and and appreciate everything you're doing. Yeah. I appreciate you all having me on here. So Caraman, you know, I always wanted to be a lawyer. So now we're coming to what's

called closing arguments. Do you have any final thoughts, any epiphanies, what would you like to share with the wrongful conviction listeners? You know, I would just say that, uh, you know, it's like there's this there's this this kind of myth where people say, you know, everybody in prison say always say they're innocent, right, everybody says they're innocent when they're in prison. Um, And that's a myth, honestly, Like there are gods. Most of the guys that I was in

prison with, they said they did the crime. They just didn't believe they should have got the time that they got. Like I said, essentially, a life without parole sentence is the death sence. But imagine if they would have gave me the death penalty and I would have actually died on death row, you know, and then you see all of it. Yeah, So that's that's the scary part about all of this. We think our systems are perfect and

and they're not. They're not. They need to be absolutely reformed from the inside out and I'm gonna tell you so much might come as a surprise. I'm not anti law enforcement by no me, you know. So, so do you still want to be a SWAT member? I am a SWAT member, just in a different way. Also, it's and one thing I can't say I did this whole story, man, is uh, you got the best thing because your name is what got you back into the game. So no doubt. Man.

I thank my father and my mom for that because growing up it was hell having that name because nobody can pronounce it right, you know. Shout out to my mom and pops, you know, for that. Thank you for listening to Role for Conviction. I'm your guest host Erlin Woods. I like to thank our executive producer Jason Flam and Kevin Waters. The senior producer for this episode is Jackie Pauli and our producers are Lila Robinson and Jeff Clyburn.

Our editor is Rook Sandra Guidi. The music in this production is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Rath. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good on all three platforms. You can find me on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook at Arline Woods, and check out ear Hustle, the podcast I co created with Nichil Poor wherever you

get your podcasts. We also wrote a book called This is ear Hustle, Unflinching stories of everyday prison life. Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one. On next week's guest hosted episode of Wrongful Conviction, my friend and personally hero Egs Honerie and musician Jimmy Dennis is going to interview Chester Home in the third about their harrowing, tragic shared experiences of having been locked up in Philadelphia for crimes

they didn't commit. Now, both men were put away by the notorious, infamous and even I'm gonna say, evil prosecutor Roger King, who get this. He put more people on death row than anyone else in Pennsylvania history. And we know a bunch of them were innocent. And there's a lot of guys will never know about who we put on death row who are innocent as well. It's it's sickening, but it's a must here story. It's gonna be on Monday. In the Wrongful Conviction podcast feed