I'm Jason Flam. Since I began recording runfl Conviction back in two thousand sixteen, I've interviewed hundreds of exoneries, but unfortunately that's just the tip of the criminal injustice Iceberg. So I've invited new voices to host the show, including people who have personally experienced the horror of that system. This is one of those interviews. It's July four, two and thirty six year old Tony Cox is meeting up with Richard Rico, the owner of Fat Albert's, a restaurant
on the West side of Chicago. They lead the restaurant together. A regal turns to lock the door behind them, and that's when he here's two gunshots. Tony Cox is shot dead. A regal stands at a close distance to the shooters, but he doesn't recognize them. As they flee to scene. Two women witness the crime from their cars. Both of them called nine one one, and both would later be asked identified the shooters from photograph as, even though they
barely had time to see them. Chicago police officers Gregory Jones, Eugene Schletter, and James Sanchez investigated the murder and they believe it had to be game related because Tony Cox was a member of the local gang, the New Breeds. At first, they investigated New Breed members but made no arrest, but within a month of the crime, for reasons they are still unknown, they turned their attention to Eric Blackman.
On the day of the murder, Eric was hosting a barbecue and between twenty and forty people saw him there. Two months later, in September, Eric showed up at court to deal with the unrelated misdemeanor charge, but the police arrested them there on the spot as he entered the courthouse. Despite having dozens of alibi witnesses and no connection to the victim. Eric Blackman was found guilty of murder and Tony Cox on sept Number. He was since the sixty
years in prison this this wrongful conviction. My name is Patrick Pursley, also known as Free Patrick Pursley. I've been a guest on this show to talk about my own wrongful conviction. But now I'm here's your guest host. In April, I had to honor of sitting down with Eric Blackman to talk about his incredible story. Today, I have a very distinguished guest, a friend, a brother of fellow AX honoree, a very positive person, someone I've known for more than
a decade. Um, Eric Blackman, how are you today, I'm doing great. Thanks for having me. I definitely definitely appreciate you being here. And we knew each other a lot longer than the decade, at least at least a decade yeah out two fifteen or twenty years ago when I really think we would to stay built together. Yeah, stay yeah, Yeah, I know you've come a long way and you've done a lot. You've really done a lot to save your
own life. Did you ever face any criticism where they say, like you jail house lord, you know how ge everybody out with yourself? You never heard that one. Yeah, and the way people think that way or one of the biggest criticisms as people would tell y'all man that petition will never worked, you know, a that'd be what you get a lot, uh sometimes, And I heard a lot
about the very petition that got me here. So I really, you know, you just really got to go on with what you research, how you feel, and what you believe in, and if it's right, you just hope that the court ends up seeing it that way, you know, Country every to what anybody else may say. So, where where are you from? Um, I'm from the West Side of Chicago. I was born and raised there. Yeah, it was dangerous,
very much like any other place. It was um, you know, ripple with gangs, drugs, violence, you know what I'm saying. It was you know, it was just things that were around. You know, you do your best to stay away from it, but it's there, things that you see every day. And Eric's neighborhood, gang violence and drugs went hand in hand with police brutality in our neighborhood. They came up with this what they called what was later called the Black Site,
which is Home and Square police station. There was the station where people would be disappeared, where you would go and you would hear the stories of people riding past here and screams at night. But it was just the place where people where all of your rights was just violated. People were just going there and people wouldn't hear from for loan periods of time, and people were arrested and held and it was later revealed that people were you know,
unconstitutionally held there at jail. Now, people have to remember the setting in Chicago and the late nineties. You know, they had record amounts of murder, and you have these cadres of police who are basically acting outside of the law. People would be amazed the level of brutality that's leveled against someone being interrogated who was non outton Times, a
young black male. A twenty fifteen investigation by the Guardian revealed that the Home and Square facility had detained and interrogated more than seven thousand people in Chicago since n and estimated those people were black, and only a handful were allowed legal representation. You know, it's like, hey, you hear about these things and you know people and you so you know, it's very much real. Like the Bookieyman on July four, two thousand two, you have Tony Cox
and Cook County, Illinois. Um, he's shot to death. Um there's witnesses, people dropping down street, at least two or three of those. There's someone next door and barbershock to people. Um there's kind of according to the record, it's like this strange meet up, right, he gets a message like meet in front of fat Albert's or meet at fat Albert's. He meets Richard Rego. I believe they kind of stay inside the restaurant for about twenty minutes and um, they're
excellent restaurant. Two people pop up and shoot, um Tony Cocks dead. I believe that's that's the states that was the state's case. I believe that is what they ultimately you know, presented at court as to being what actually happened that I know when the shooting happened, there was like a handful of witnesses from your record or from like where some things that we're saying about the actual shooter.
I know they have made nine one one calls or according to the record, French and Reese and Lisa McDowell were, uh, two people who were driving past the crime. They both were stopped at this um same light. Uh at a different viewpoints. Yeah yeah, both one was heading north, the other way head and south. But they were both that you know, on opposite sides of the same light. According to Miss Frenshawn Reese, the light turned green, she see these people standing up half a block in front of her.
The light turns green and she proceeds up. She sees one of these men shoot the other. Um you recall like her identification, like description. She gave a description I can't recall, but it wasn't a description that fit me. I believe the description with somebody like five teen thirties, twenties, thirties. I was a team then, but it was something that definitely didn't fit me. I'm six four, um, I was a teenager at the time, so you know, it was
a very far cry from who I am now. Miss McDowell says that she was still there and when the crime happened, she heard the shots, looked over her and the kids within the car. She's seen this person or somebody two people come around the build and and walk up on this man that was already on the ground where she's seen the white man who we suspected. She was saying, Mr Reego, he had a gun. She actually puts a gun in a Riggle's hand. Yeah, that's what
she did. Uh. At her initial statement to the police, sometime later she would go on to change that. It really cut a lot of people because like, if what she's saying is true, then Mr Frego was not a witness. He was a participant in this crime. You know what I'm saying. I'm not sure if everything that happened or what the actual you know, uh relationship or what actually went on. It was a lot of questions around what
actually happened then who was actually involved that day? You know, a lot of cases take a lot twis returns, and but your case is almost like a direct like a direct shot. Like you're at a you're hosting a party, right, and you know, like your barbecue July fourth, every one out there, right, So you got forty witnesses, right, Can
you tell me about that? Well, Um, we threw a barbecue on myself and some friends and I um over on the block where we normally hung and we were out there, um throughout that afternoon the time that they say this murder happened to occur, we were definitely out there. I heard a dozen to two dozen people that could verify where I was. How do how the hell they tie you like, how they drag you in? You know, I don't know. That's something I don't know to this day.
How I ever became a suspect. How I had no link to the game, No ties, wasn't a part of that gang or any gang for that matter. Uh, I'm not sure until this day, that's still the question. No, I never heard any dealings with the VIC them or anybody that was alleginally involved in this crime. I do nothing. So how did they like effectuate the rest? Like, how was it the same day or later? Um? No, sir, I was arrested like months later. I believe it was
like two months. I got arrested September the five of that year, which is exactly like two months later. In between the time of the murder and my actual arrest, which was a couple of months, I had been arrested for uh some type of disorderly conduct of gambling or something like that. You know in our neighborhood the police you know, sup you yeah, lord or those type of
and it's not a real big infraction. It's infraction that you normally go to like uh, misdemeanor cord or something for and they just threw it out normally in my neighborhood. It's just the way to ring up guys. It's almost like a taxation. Yeah, it's a feel quotas type of things. Everybody know who's in charge. Yeah, basically, and with Chicago p D, you're gonna respect the authority. Yeah. Really that's definitely so. Um So I get one of those. It
was nothing major didn't do anything. So this particular morning, if my arrest Sepamber the fourth was the day I actually had court for this on offense. So I go there the same way, I will, you have a court date, nothing amiss, and I walk into build if police are there. These aren't the regular police. These are like the tactical guys. They're waiting on you. Yeah, they're waiting there. As soon as I go through the metal detector, they acts like, so,
what's your name? And I tell them my name and these officers grabbed me rough me you know, you know how they do. You know what I'm saying, yeah, yeah, yeah, So it's to grab you up, and I'm like for what, you know what y're grabbing me for. My attorney's right in the courtroom. So the whole thing was to prevent me from getting a chance to notify my attorney. That's that's That's something else too, because if they know you have attorney, they're not supposed to ask you nothing. Well, right,
but they know my attorney was there in their courtroom. Um, I was going to court. He was there. You know. There's usually um a very clear path to why the police pick somebody, right, one of the things that I hear a lot from people who have not lived the um life that we have lived. It's like, come on, what they do? Just picked the name out of the hat. I could never figure out in your case, Like how how the hell did they pick you? You know, Um, that's still a mystery to this day for me, just
as well as my legal team going forward. I can't really tell you why they picked me out. I don't know that would. That's something that baffles me to this day. Even when you aren't guilty and you know you haven't done anything, you still question yourself, like why me? Why the hell did I? What could I have done differently? You all like? And to this day, like I questioned myself about that. I don't know what I could have done differently because I don't know anything in regards to
what happened that day. This episode is sponsored by the a I G pro Bono Program. Hey I G is a leading global insurance company, and the ai G pro Bono Program provides free legal services as well as other support to many nonprofit organizations as well as individuals who are most in need, and they recently announced that working to reform the criminal justice system will become a key
pillar of the program's mission. The police arrested Eric without him warrant, and they took him to the station, but he has no idea what's going on. You got machine, just being dragged away from your family, dragged away from your house, and the police took their time and telling him what this was all about. Eventually they tell me that I'm there for murder. The only thing I could tell you is that's like the most earth shaking, earth
shattering like moment that I could tell you. You know, it was like, you know, hearing the record, you know, stop like murder, Yeah, murder. I've never been nobody accused of nothing remotely like that. Now. It was like, hold on, they tell you murder, and they leave out again, and they leave you for a while and then they yeah, yeah. Then they come back in and they're like, okay, you want to tell us what happened now, and I don't know what happened, and I'm denying, and they steady trying
to do it. You know, uh, hey, well maybe it didn't happen this way, Maybe it happened that way. You want, yeah, we know you weren't the person. And those are things that they go out go over, they say, and do a lot of different things to out those three days. It really was like I've never been so broke down
and so dejected and so defeated in my life. I'll just say that, like just being in that just having people because oftly yelled and badger you and tell you and talk to you like you the lowest, dirtiest thing in the world and accused you of doing something like so horrific. You know, it just shouted you. It broke me. I was a nineteen year old kid. I never went through nothing like that before. I was just you know,
I was scared, I was defeated. I was hurt. I didn't know and like, man, you just don't know what to do in that situation. And you were a kid in there. Man, the stuff that those grown man subject kids to like in that, Like you know what I'm saying. One of the detectives on this case was James Sanchez, and since all this happened, he got promoted to commander despite having at least ninety formal complaints of miscond ed up against him. So, yeah, this is this character right here,
He's the one actually interrogating eric Um. Yeah. Mr Sanche is like I called him out his name. I cursed at him. He said something to me. I cursed at him, like game, I asks a nice one to face Yeah, just to the face. Yeah, yeah, you know what it it means business. Yeah yeah, I got his point of cross. I didn't say that no more. After his interrogation. He waited for his trial behind bars and Cookaine Jail for
two years, being stuck in that place. It's one of the most dreadful, crepit, dilapidated places that you could ever throw so many people in is rats, roaches, knives, violence, gangs, if you name it, you get tyrannical police officers or corrections officers that which is do what that like? It was rough. I've seen people be stabbed if you name it, choked, strangled, I've seen all kinds of things like happened to people
that I've seen one guy like set on fire. Like it's some of the things that you wake up to when you have nowhere to go, no where to room. You're just stuck. You're just there. So by the time you get the trial, it's almost like it's almost like a relief. What is the States, like, what's their case
in chief? What do they present where we started trial about two years later, and the state's whole case in chief was the identifications of Ms McDowell and Ms Reese, And that was the only thing, Um, I never forget it. Miss French and Reese testified to seeing their offend his face for property four to five seconds. Miss mcdown testified
to seeing it only for like two or three. Before trial, American's mother put together a list a potential alibi witnesses that could confirm he was at the Fourth of July barbecue and not down at Fat Albert's restaurant where the crime was committed. My mom made the calls to two people that day, uh to ultimately come to my trial and testify and my defense with those two alibi witnesses, two of the people from hard On forty. Yeah, that he hadn't even spoken to until my trial attorney hadn't
even spoken to until that. More than that, they showed up waiting for trial. Just for the record, you're waiting for trial two years and he hasn't even spoke to two witnesses but a few hours before trial. Yeah. According to them, that the first time they ever met or spoke with him was like and it wasn't even hours he spoke to them, like probably for a short period prior to them getting understand I kind of felt like okay, um, not really okay, But I know I got an Alabam.
I know I had a bunch of people that know where I would. You know, I just know that there's a mistake, that this would be straightened out. But the lawyer, he he doesn't really follow up. He didn't, the police didn't follow up, the lawyer didn't follow up. At that point, I was a layman. I knew nothing about the law going in. I didn't. It's like you're really learning as you go alone, and to say a part, as you're learning with your life. No room forever, Yeah, no room forever.
Before his trial, Eric's attorney convinced him to take a bench trial. In a jury trial, you pick your twelve jurors. However, in a bench trial, the judge is the sole trial fact. He's the one who hears the evidence and determines guilt or innocence. So you're putting all your eggs in one basket. He said that in my situation, it was a better to go. When he definitely convinced me, he gave me a lot of different reasons, and like, and I really didn't want to go, Like I really didn't want it.
But you're a kid, it's your first aimeple, do understand who would you listen to other than the person that's supposed to defend you your attorney. An attorney and his client are in a fidciary relationship. He's supposed to look out for your best interests. He's supposed to defend you zealously. In retrospect, as a jail house lawyer, I could tell
you take a bench trial is a terrible idea. It closes out a bunch of chances for your appeal to be heard because a lot of the issues actually become non issues because the judges presumed to know the law. But Eric, he didn't know this at the time. He was just a kid. On September twenty seven, the judge found Eric Blackman guilty of murder and was sinced to
sixty years in prison. I never forget my mom list in that courtroom and like as a shriek that she let out was like, M That's something I'll never forget because we know I hadn't done it. Everybody knew it. Everybody the whole neighborhood, everybody, the police. They even knew even when they were saying it in that room, they knew that I hadn't done They knew it, but they told me say it well, asked the jail, you're gonna go through all of this, and those things played through
my mind. What was gonna happen when I got to the penitentiary, my kids, my family. Hearing that guilty verdict was like, ain't gonna hand and he wanted the worst, if not the worst day of my life ever, just no one. I didn't do it. It was hard to sleep at night. I couldn't I couldn't I come rest, I couldn't sleep, I couldn't eat. I thought about killing myself so many times, even tried once. By the time I met Eric, he's working hard to save his own life.
I met him in the law library and he was deep deep into books, trying to learn everything he could to get himself out of there. I think you were the one that told me, because I used to everybody pro say, gets no play, like that's like one of my things, Like you represent yourself, forget about it, right, So you I think you were the first one told me us. Like, man, it's like, what you mean, Uh, If I ain't got a little you ain't getting out jail.
So you file stuff yourself and actually got some type of rhythm, right, I mean not at first obviously, right. So yeah, we went through UM the process, and I went through UM the direct impure process, the posting action process that was denied. Both of those were denied. The next step for Eric was still pealed to the federal courts with the rid of Habiest Corpus, a petition that claims you've been in prison and violation of your constitutional rights.
It's your first and last federal pell The only time that the federal courts will ever look at a conviction or overturned the conviction is if the state courts did not convict you correctly according to federal law, the US constitutional law. So basically you have to find not only that they were wrong, but they have to be more than wrong. They had to be so agreed just as to where like I mean, it's a high bar to pass.
You have to ask the district judge, the guy who smashes you in the head, give me a letter that you did me wrong, so I can take it to your boss. Yeah, so you asked him to reconsider his decision. If he doesn't, then and you have to find what they call a certificate of appallability to him. And that's where you have to get him or heard to say where they were wrong, which they very very rarely do.
We get to the point where the certificate of appellability is Granny and I get these great attorneys and re Dale and David p Chrome. I appreciate them so much because after what I had been through with the first attorney, I gave them hell. And it wasn't intentionally, it was just because trust yeah, that was my life. I had been my baby for so long. I finally had got some you know, and I just couldn't give it up,
you know what I'm saying. So you go through it and like, man, they were the best attorneys that I ever could have asked for. Those people understood and they love me. Like even when I was an asked when I was wrong, I had badgered them about what they were going to argue. What you're gonna say? You no saying like this, No, I just I'd like to be told how good hey look mhm, I mean hey, I was the only person that's gonna go back and do that time at the end of the day. So the
jail say, hey, we get to go back. We're elated. But another problem presents itself. I have been in jail at that point so long. Money is depleted, don't have many people around the help. Um, you have a new trial, you have a new case. What you're gonna do? How do you proceed going forward? And uh, Mr Krone he was like, hey, we got a few options. And one of those options was we could see if the c w C, the Center Role for Convictions, will be willing to take your case. I tell him, yeah, you could
do whatever you want. But I asked him and they see it. No good luck with that. Yeah, so you know, we come we have this attorney meeting and I see these the new faces I've never seen this were a little small, wildly looked woman like she barely stood over the table like. And she was like, hey, I'm caring Daniels. And she was like, yes, we're gonna be here and taking your case and we're looking forth working with you. And the first thing I said was when she got finished,
was like, hey, but y'all told me no before. Why are you telling me no before, and like I was just sitting there intently waiting on the answer, and she didn't say anything. She just gave me that mother look and looked at the paper and leave it to me. And I signed that paper and that was one of the best things that I've ever done for my life. And that lawyer was Karen Daniel made she rest in peace.
She was a renowned wrawful convictions attorney who at the time was a co director of the Center for wrang for Convictions. She and the students she supervised one more than twenty exoneration cases during her career. She was a great woman, a real hero who helped me out when I was lost in the airport come from Georgia and she really didn't even know me. She died in a tragic hit and running car crash, in a loss that's felt deeply across the innocence movement community. She liked my
second mother. I often tell people like that, Uh, she the one who gave me my second birth, who gave me my second life. So to me, like, yeah, she was like my mother. And she just did so much like in a way for this community. If she didn't work your case, that didn't get you an attorney. She made some precedent that you ultimately ended up using, and everybody benefited from arrogance. New team of lawyers brought his
case to US Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals. Judge Ronald Guzman granted Eric's petition for the habeas corpus, and he was let our prison on bond penning of re trial. Actually the same day I got out. I was living life very barely because you always heard, you know, in position that maybe you may go back. You know what I'm saying. You knew what it was like. You know,
it was always hanking there. It's like walking around with that black cloud of that am build over your head, just waiting for it to drop, and you didn't know what it would be. You know, I know that I hadn't done anything, but I know I hadn't done anything, you know, the first time. And um, I believe it's the fall case that says even the innocent man still faces a fifty fifty chance if he goes to trial. So I knew what my chances were. I didn't want to go back to jail, um, but I knew what
I had to do. Like we still here that heard her to get across. I was scared as hell and I wanted to prolonge as long as I could, But then that really wasn't a viable thought. So I told my attorneys to let's man trial. It was six months after I got out, and we demanded trial, and uh, when he came time, they decided not to proceed. They dropped the charges. Then comes to celebration, No, not really, because it was anti climactic. You think it's gonna be
over with. Then you think, like, hey, life is great. You know a lot of us think that that would be the end of the movie, right, Na, But it's just the beginning. Because I hear that thing for like more than half of my life. I didn't really know like how to live without it, Like it was a different era. We come home to a different it's a different world, Yeah it really is. But then you you know, you really just like wake up and you don't have to worry about that, you don't have to go through
it anymore. But it's like, I don't know, I don't even remember the point to where I didn't have to go through it. So it's like it becomes our life and it becomes almost like which we're defined by like you're actually become a success story and just like you start working c w C. Right, what is that like?
Where is the sweet part like in your work? And you know what I mean, Like I tell people like this, Um, I guess the great sweet spot is that you still get a chance to work on trying to ultimately correct the system or not allow whatever happened to me that happened to the next person. You know, that's the part that gets up and keep me driving, you know, keeps
me going. At the same time, it's like going back to visit your tornment to over and over and over again, because every time you pick up a case, it takes you right back to that spot for you. Every time I go to the court, you know, and I'm good, I'm great, arap everything, But sometimes the same fear creeps back is that first day when I was standing in there and it's all consuming. It's all consuming. Yeah, So I mean that I don't have a state Ville reference.
There's not a single day that I am not back there. What I want to ask you, though, is what would you invite the audience, how can they help you or something that's near and dear to your heart right, your what is your call to action? I guess my personal call to action is to keep fighting, is to keep on trying to do things to make our justice system better.
I know people might say that we have like a great justice system, but I tell people, much like a doctor King want to say that an injustice anywhere as a threat to justice everywhere. So if one person is in jail wrongfully, or if one person is over sentence, the end of run is the it runs the chance of it happening to two and three and four and five and so more to where it will become the norm. And I look at so many people that I sentenced today,
and I see a lot of people over sentence. We're punitively punishing people consistently, like and what I mean by that is, yeah, people make mistakes, people commit crimes, but do we take their lives? Like for every infraction. We have more people slated to die in prison now than
at any point in time before. So when I would say the people, yeah, you could say somebody committed a crime more or whatever I say to you, So what do we do do we take the life from And to the people that say yeah, I'll just say, hey, what about that real stop signing that you ran? What about that real light you ran? What penalty should you get? You know? I work with a lot of different orgs.
So the first thing is I work for them in carth that Justice Center, which is to a civil entity that suits for people like us and other people who you know, uh, face any civil rights violation. We do things like voters rights, prisoner rights, solitary um, wrong for convictions, wrong for death, police shooting, and those type of things. So these are the things that I feel are really near and dear to me being a chance to write
the system. I also work for the Chicago Torture Justice Center, which works on uh basically trying to make sure that all of the bird the John Birds torture victims, you know, get justice in their cases. And I sit on the board for that. And I also sitting on the board for another or called the Justice Renewal Initiative, where we try to give jobs to youth that are you know, uh, disadvantaged and targeted or you know, return the citizens and we try best to work with youth um on that
front to ultimately help them. Yeah, so they don't we went through yeah, exactly important. So we'll have those links to those organizations in the bio, hopefully everyone will check them out. UM, you get to find a word this closing arguments, I really really, really truly want thank you for UM let me tell your story. I really commend you, you know, survivor. Thanks. I guess I'll take this time to just, um, thank the people that helped me to get to this point, help me get freedom, help me
be sitting here with you all. I don't think that I get a chance to say that, well, thank you, and just tell those people how much they man, how much every little thing that they ever did help me. I thank all of those people, and and I'd just like to say thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. I don't think I can say it enough. Thank you for listening at Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to
thank our executive producers Jason Flam and Kevin Wards. The senior producer for this episode is Jackie Polly, and our producers are Lila Robinson, Connor Hall and Jeff clad Barn. Our editor is Roxander Guidi, and special thanks to Jillian Forstad for help on this episode. The music and this production is by three time Oscar nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at
wrong Conviction, as well as Lava for Good. On all three platforms, you can also follow me on Facebook and Instagram at free Patrick Pursley at I Am Kid Culture Too, and online at i Am Kid Culture dot org. Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lavul for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number One. Tune in next week for the third and final episode of Wrongful Conviction, where Patrick Persley plays the host and Patrick this time is
going to interview Jarvis Ballard about their tragic shared experience. Now, both of them are innocent men who spent decades behind bars, and in this intimate and highly emotional episode, they're going to talk about the lies that landed Jarvis in prison and the patterns of misconduct that play in so many wrongful conviction cases, just like there's now. Patrick met Jarvis the same time I did, which was that this year's Innocence Network conference in Phoenix, Arizona. Both of us were
immediately taken by this larger than life character. This guy just got out of prison after two decades, and he's there representing himself in such a powerful way. So these guys bonded immediately. It was an honor for me to be able to facilitate their connection and to have Patrick on the mic in my chair interviewing Jarvis. It just means the world to me, so tune in listen next Monday in the Wrongful Conviction podcast Feed