#290 Guest Host Patrick Pursley with Carl Williams

is one of those interviews. In the early morning hours of January, Stephen Fitch, Reginald Wilson, and Felicia Lewis were in Chicago driving in Wilson's car. They stopped at a gas station so the two men could use the restroom. When Fitch walked back to the car, he saw two men hijacking it, one driving and another in the back with Wilson and Lewis. Fitch ran across the street and

called the police to report the car jacking. Later that day, the frozen bodies of twenty three year old Illinois state basketball star Reginald Wilson and his twenty year old girlfriend, Felicia Lewis were discovered in a large garbage ban in Chicago. Both had sustained multiple gunshot wounds. The stolen car was found idling in a nearby town after a chase. Two of the car jackers were identified as Scott Chambers and Stanley Hamilt. They were interviewed and admitted their involvements in

the crime. They also named three more accomplices, including a guy named Carl. Through their investigation, the police were led to Carl Williams. The co defendants repeatedly said that Carl Williams wasn't involved and there was no physical evidence linking him to the carjacking and murders, but with a forced and false confession, Carl Williams was found guilty of a crime he did not commit and was since the natural

life in prison. This is wrongful conviction. My name is Patrick Persley, also known as Free Patrick Pursley, as previously a guest on Wrang for Conviction as in Asnoree, but today I'm honored to be your guest host. It is a true privilege. We'll be talking to two people to Carl's actually attorney, Carl Leonard, and my good friend and brother Carl Williams. This interview was recorded in April, but Carl and I have known each other for a long time.

We were at Stapo prison together where we both spent countless hours in the lawd liberry. We probably did what how many years you think we did together? Oh? Man um at least how how how many years? He was just twenty three? Yeah, see just and then I was there about twenty three years, so at least years a couple of decades. Yes, that's you. Hail from Cook County, Chicago. I doo born and raised um. The what they called the low wind, the lowing hell of a rep. The

low wind definitely has a hell of a rep. But I think that the low wind gets an unfair rep. Well, but I don't even think it exists no more. And so it was so bad they knocked the buildings down. Then they definitely knocked the buildings down. But the spirit and the people are still the next community. They were serving that community, UM in a more productive and positive ways. Yeah, that's beautiful thing. So going forward, right, like you you

catch this just this horrific, horrific case. It's a very heavy story, right, it's a very so you had to carry this, can you like start us like at the beginning, what like what took place? So me growing up in that community. It was a community like I said that, I love that, I value that, I appreciate it, and at the same time, I also made some wrong decisions in that community. I come from street hustling, which allowed me to be able to gain material wealth. And you

know how this operates in those communities. Very true, and it brings it brings a long attention in terms of girls and things. We're talking about starting from the age of like fifteen years old. And what it does is it brings you a ton of attention. Everybody knows your name, everybody wants to be connected to you. A few months after Carl's seventeenth birthday, a terrible crime happened in his neighborhood.

Here's attorney Kyle Leonard, who worked on Carl's case. The evidence that the that the state collected was that there was carjacking confrontation at a gas station in Chicago. UH. Two individuals were kidnapped during the car jack king brought to another location. UH the woman was actually assaulted and both of them ended up murdered and in a dumpster. And there was there were some items that were stolen from the vehicle and the state alleged that that those

items were divvied up among the offenders. The other person who had been in the car with the victims saw the car jacking and called the police. The police tracked down the vehicle in nearby town. They arrested two people running from it, Scott Chambers and Stanley Hamlin, who were both later convicted of the crime. Chambers and Hamlin then provided the police with three more names, so Riis Johnson, Anthony Brown, and a guy named Carl. They didn't give

his last name, just Carl. It's really rare to have this manic defendants and it's a lot to sort through, right. This is a case that involves a lot of offenders and the police are obviously investigating. They're sort of big break is when they find the vehicle, which they they had brought to a south suburb out side Chicago, and that's how they made the initial arrests of who would

become some of Carl's co defendants. There's an individual with them who does not end up becoming a co defendant, but who is the first one to sort of start talking and they he just starts saying names of people who were involved, gives the first name Carl. They decided that Carl Williams is the car that this person's referring to the name Carl came up being involved in this brutal cry. So with that name being coming up, then who was the most popular car in that area at

that time? It was me based off the fact of the street hustling and the things that brought me the unwanted attention. Now, the description that they was given of this car was six one to six three, low hair, my skin, um full beard. I mean I was just a young kid who barely can still grow a beard to this day. About five seven. I mean, well not quite five seven, but I mean I'm about five, but you'll match the description skin tone or height or I was five seven at that time, stocky build, short hair,

never had long hair. The description definitely didn't fit me. The police showed up at the home of Erica Wells, Carl's girlfriend at the time. The person that answered the door told the police that Carl was upstairs. The police entered the home and immediately got rough with him, taking me and throwing me onto the floor, slamming me onto the floor, grabbing me by the knack, putting the gun to my head, threatening to shoot me. And to kill

me if I move. A lot of people don't really realize how like the tailor two America's like the treatment in the door. They absolutely so, it is so calm. The violations as far as what they would call civil rights violations, it's like we basically have no civil rights and at all. When you're at that point and just feeling that understanding, it feels like it takes some of your power away. You're powerless in that moment. And they take me downstairs and I have on nothing but my underwear,

no other clothes on whatsoever. And I'm studied consistently actually them what's going on to people in the house are asking them what's going on? They take me out in handcuffs. Now it's January before. Do you know how cold Chicago could be to go outside and to step outside and the code it's aure. But when you think about it today, is it was a deliberate process of course, So it asked trauma that you have already experienced from from the moment that they entered into the house to accuse you

of a crime that you didn't commit. So the person, um, they take me outside with the handcuffs on and just I guess for him to identify me. Now they're saying that he's identifying me, and I need to go down to the station. And this is where the rest of the trauma begins. You can feel the butterflies, you can feel the nervousness, you can feel the anxiety because of

what just happened to you. So there's still trauma that's continuing to follow you and walk with you through the same path that they're taking you on, which is a brutal path. So and then presenting you in that way, having you handcuff, holding you by your arm and just jaking open the door and and pushing you there and say and the person you know this person at he's like no, and they all go And when you go to every room and they say no, it's like, oh man,

but you don't understand that at the time. They put you back in that room and you're you know, and you're like, oh man, that you know that was that? That was it. But then hours to go by, or you don't know how much time going by because there's no clock, and you're like, what I am I still here? Then you see one of your co defendants come to you.

They bring him back to you, and he still says no, But then they bring him back within a thirty minute or within the hour time frame, and now he's crying, and you know, and and and him, and then he says they asked him again, and he says, yeah, now you you know it's it's it's a concern and a worry. Um, that's starting to lose your grasp on reality to imagine, I couldn't explain to you that feeling. Now, can we just be clear, because it's not it's it's torture, the

breaking of the will, the breaking of the psyche. And I'm glad that you recognized and identified it as that, because that's exactly what it is. It's no different from the mental um um torture that you put someone and what I'm talking to obey through. It's no different from torture that you put someone through in Vietnam. So you're absolutely right because the tactics are the same, you know, the objectives are the same. The objectives are definitely the same,

just different people. And the facts can just be collateral damage. The facts are unfortuntime. At the time, the purpose is to be able to find um a person, to to accuse them and charge them with the crime, so so your day can be over with. I just want to remind you here, it's only seventeen years old at the time when all this is going down. The police interrogate him all day, like ten or twelve hours straight trying

to get him to confess. So just going through that process hours on end, hours on end to where you just want to end it. It's just like, hey, you know what, well, we want you to sign this. If you don't, then this process will happen again. I couldn't tell you of the fear that I probably that I felt at that time. Well, I mean, it's a very sterile picture, but the reality is those interrogation rooms are full of blood, spit urine. They are on the wall

saying here, they're right, they're hot there. You know, they're literally stuffed with the energy of the people that were in there just a few moments before you and you can end this process if you signed this statement. As naive as I was, I did think that was there a sense of relief, would have a sense of relief though after the fact, um, I think that some of my anxiety kind of went away because of I didn't see them anymore, not knowing that this has to has

affected my entire life. At nine o'clock that evening, Assistant State's Attorney Nicholas grabs As wrote a handwritten confession for Carl. The statement said that he was in Anthony Brown's car when Carl and four other co defendants saw the victims Chevy Blazer at the gas station and then decided to hijack it, strip it, and sell the parts and split the money. The statement said that Carl was on the lookout while the hijacking took place, and that he was

in Brown's car watching while Brown raped Felicia Lewis. They then allegedly returned Louis to the blazer and demanded money. The statement said that afterwards all five co defendants met up and Scott Chambers told them they shot the victims and then Carl received thirty dollars as to share the hijacking money. After being subject to torture and relentless pressure from the police, Carl Williams signed this false confession, sealing his faith. During that time, I was still um in

a state of confusion. I was still very hurt. I was also struggling in terms of defending myself here. I was, you know, early on you you're given a p D who's not putting forth an effort to be able to um actually highlight your innocence, but to shuffle you along to be to the next case. I was still, you know, you hear stuff like this when the judge is allowed, judge and this judgement see right through the police is nonsense,

and then there bring your relief. Well, I actually hope that would be for me, that that's like the loss of innocence right there when we learned of what a freaking fairytale that one is right until and listen, let me go back just a little bit the first time when I'm arraigned in front of the judge, my co defendants says still that I wasn't involved in the case, that they that they have their wrong person. This is yes, you would think that at some point there was want

to be an investigation. This is a continuing theme fair Belt right now. But things are continue to move forward, uh at a very rapid um fast pace and no one cares. So what actual evidence like was what what evidence that the state presenting? What was your side? The statement that's it? No code defenders to come testify. No one testify against me. The co defender who decided to testify against another. The co defendant refused to testify against me because he said to them that I was innocent

and wasn't involved in the case. As a practice in jail house lawyer for twenty three years in Stateville, I've seen this way so much. Public defenders are often referred to imprison as public pretenders because they often dropped the ball. It happens more often than the general public has any idea of. And in this case, the public defender failed to get any exculpatory evidence to help free at client.

The lawyer never went to witnesses. So, um, that was a witness in the case, and at that time, who was coming to court for me? And who was there in the audience in terms of my alibi every time I had a court date, and they just don't talk to him and they never talked and they never spoke to him. I've seen it. I've trust me, I've seen it. As a jail house lawyer. You already know that. Um,

you know, not knocking lawyers right. However, when we're sitting inside and we're filing these complaints to the Attorney Registration Disciplinary Commission. Another lawyer answers them right, and basically all these claims are basically all the same as far as failure to reach out to get witnesses, failed you to investigate, FAILI to secure evidence right, maybe video surveilance or whatever,

failure to get an expert to challenge any evidence. But here it is what the gap for you is a confession. You would think that he might have stepped up and did more. No physical evidence, no, no, nothing to connect me to the crime whatsoever. The jury deliberated for several days and eventually came to the conclusion that Carl Williams was guilty a first degree murder. Carl was convicted because of his you know, the so called confession of the statement that was the only evidence. And I think the

police knew that they didn't have any evidence. That's why they beat you. That's why they need something. The only way they're closing this case against Carl Williams is if you confess. So they made sure to get a confession, correct, That's how they are you convicted. But yeah, I mean from the second I met Carl, I knew he's innocent. I still believe He's innocent, no doubt about it. The way I kind of like, look at it's like you

know the Zamboni machine. That's the thing. It's like a slow like it's just running you over slow motion, right, And you're just getting to this process where you know you're being run over by the system and you can't do it. You just can't do anything about it because a lot of times if the council does not do the work, the judge does not suit Sponte on his own. Hey, I call Radishes correct. The prosecutor is just here for the slam dunk, right, So now you, um, you get

found guilty. What is this um like? For myself? I just I don't even remember how I got back to my debt. What happened? What was your processing? I cried the entire way. I can remember walking back and asking them to speak to a counselor because my mind couldn't function. My mind couldn't tell you, Um, I couldn't even figure

out where I was at at the time. And uh, And I'm getting emotional about it now because I'm thinking about my young self at that time trying to walk through that tunnel and you know you can't you can't protect that, you know what I'm saying. And you walk through that tunnel and you're and you're thinking to yourself, they just took my life. How could you reconcile with with that? When you when you believed in something, you believed in something more importantly that you trusted in the process,

and then the process fails you. I sat by myself on that deck. I can remember just being in the room for days and people coming to check on me because they was afraid that, you know, trying to harm himself. I'm sorry, and you know, but immediately, immediately, UM, my mom. You know my mom made she rest in peace now you know. She She passed away um this year from

COVID on January the second. I can remember her calling one of my friends who was on that deck with me, and he's like, man, your mom's saying, call her, call her. And I called her and she says, you know, UM, I can't imagine what you're going through. My heart is broken, but we need to get focused real quick. What is it that we need to do to fight for your life. I just started to go and write letters immediately. That's where it all begins for me from I never stopped

writing letters asking for help. I've probably sent out over four thousand letters. Good god, I actually sent so many letters out. We used to send a hundred letters out in the box for those who don't know. For those don't know. Stateville Prison lost the lawsuit and in part of a an agreement was they had to send all of our legal mail out and we would take full avenge. I would put them in colorful envelopes. I would put them in peppermint looking envelopes, pink envelopes, green envelopes, just

to make them try to stand out. And you name them. I wrote them. I said, do you know do you know anyone who would be interested in looking into a role for conviction. I've written many letters, I've written many people. And Mike responded, and that changed the narrative for me. That Mike is his lawyer, Michael Scolar, who took on the case pro bono on seven. Before Mike got involved in the case, Carl had already filed to post conviction

petitions and both were denied. Together they filed two more petitions. He started working on the case and he said, Carl, I believe you're innocent, but this is gonna be an uphill battle. I just wanted to check right because this is uh, this is the turnaround, right, So, um, you're thrown down this deep dark well, right, that's basically what it is. It's like a Stateville's like a little like a little hell, and time is frozen. Right. You have the same people reciting the same rap song that they

were citing when they kind of locked up. Right, So you're in this like this pocket universe of hell, and everything is going against you to prevent you from getting to that law library, right, getting copies, right, having any peace to read your case. Right. However, the hope comes because you see other people getting out right, So me and you we got your witnessed several people, So that gives you hope, right, like even right now, like I really feel like the exhilaration, Like, um, one day we're

going to hard and talking to baby Stone. Right, next day, baby Stone is out, the next day baby Stone is all sixty minutes. That is a hell of a message to us, and it's very encouraging, and it's very supportive in terms of your spirit, your energy, and your peace and your effort to continue to push forth and dry the narrative of your innocence. And when we get the lawyers right, because we know pro say gets no play. Once we get the lawyers right, it gives us such

a shot in the arm. I look at it very much like I sent my words out to fight for me mhm. And over time other people added their words to fight for me, and becomes an undeniable, undeniable force, and it literally sets us free. Long before I was ever even involved, Mike had done a ton of investigation and got an affidavits from the co defendants from a

number of people attesting to Carl's innocence. Meanwhile, there's a Supreme Court case called Miller versus Alabama that was decided which talks about how it can be unconstitutional to give life sentences or de facto life sentences to juveniles. Carl falls into that category, so they file another post conviction petition raising that issue separately. The judge dismissed both of them and went up on appeal, and Mike and his team won the appeal sent it back to the Child

Court to have a hearing on these issues. That's the point at which I got involved, was getting ready to have that hearing. I don't like popular opinion is very weighty on lawyers as far as you know, a lot of people give you like jeers for helping prisoners. As far as yourself and going into this process, what were

someone challenges. I think one of the hardest parts about these cases in general is just how old they are, and like it's it's terrible for you guys who were in prison for what was it, twenty four years, twenty six years, But during that time, memories fade, witnesses die, witnesses move, and so we're trying to piece back together something that happened a very long time ago, involving people who have moved on with their lives and want nothing

to do with you. So I think that tends to be one of the bigger challenges with all of these cases is that we're not the place. We can't show up with a badge and say you need to talk to us, so you're you're just trying to convince people that you're worth their time. So I think just the passage of time and the lack of any real power makes it really hard to sort of reinvestigate these these types of cases. Our goal is to get Carl home, and the way we were able to get him home.

The quickest was to reach an agreement with the state about the the Miller claimed the juvenile life without parole claim. Agreed to a sentence, and we did a sentencing hearing instead of doing an evidentiary hearing, and convinced the judge to impose a sentence that got Carl home pretty quickly after that. A lot of people don't really realize how long it takes for a post conviction petition to matriculate through the circuit courts. The whole process in this case

was definitely not quick. In twelve and Impellet Court ruled that he was entitled to a new evidentury hearing and if he were denied a new trial after that, he should at least deserve a nuisance based on the president set by Miller versus Alabama. It always was one thing and after another and saying, oh, um, well, we're looking, we're waiting on these documents, or I didn't read this, or she would give me these long continuouces. So it went on and on and on, and it dragged out

from November of on the way to August one. Do you see or do you believe that this using time as a weapon it is and household. It's being used as a weapon because it wears you down. Imagine the psychological effects that that has upon you. You're going to court or you're having a court date, and then it's another continuous I think thinking about the how much time went by there, and I think you're absolutely right that there is a strategic reason for the state to delay

things and things like that. I think also, and this is much more depressing, is that the delays I don't think are necessarily because this is the way we're going to win the case. I think a lot of the times delays are you guys don't matter. There are more important things for these judges to be working on. There's more important things for the prosecutors to be working on.

These guys were convicted, they don't matter. Kyle was released from prison in but not based on his innocence, but because in the new sentence that was imposed, it's a chance to get out, but it also means you won't officially be exonerated, and that's a very heavy cross to carry for someone who's actually innocent. For me, Um, it was very bittersweet. It's something that I was like, you know what, Um, I didn't want to do, but I was forced to do. I wasn't gonna die in somebody's prison.

My mom was older. I lost a son. It's one of the things that I that I kicked myself over, and I've gone back over if there's anything I could have done to make this go faster. Because your son died right before you got out, I've gone back over it and wondered, is there any place I could have made this go a month faster or something like that.

I am beyond grateful that you were home to be with your mom, but you're the fact that your son died right before you got out, and and and I want to just make this clear, not that he died as if he died from natural causes, he was murdered in broad daylight. I need to touch on this. How many times did you see guys our age lose sons to the streets while we were inside? Oh man, I lost count I probably I don know about forty people who's probably lost a son. The father's not there, were

locked up. The mother is doing her best, is put cultural best effort, but the culture is drawing them out. The culture is drawing them out. That is very true. The culture is definitely drawing them out, reshaping their frame of mind, changing their free features. Really hard for them to give absolutely, because it's like speaking a foreign language, it is. And you're still trying to be a father and a parent from from prison, which you know you wish there was a such thing. I mean, I literally

like hashtag Confessions of a jail Daddy. It's an oxymoron. You're in jail. You can write all the letters and all the money, but the culture is still going to get a hold to our children, it is. But in returning back into society, you know, I've took in every educational course that I possibly could in that prison, only because I've always seen a better future and the opportunity

for me upon my return. So in the name of my son, in the name of myself, I was definitely going to upon my return, whatever day that was going to be, I was gonna do something and make something better of myself and highlighted to to do better in the community that I grew up in. I feel like I have been taking that journey. I feel like I have been walking that journey with the work that I've

been doing. I now teach um kids in the neighborhood who fathers were in conserrated or who mothers were in concerrated. I teach them corpentry. I own a furniture business as building custom cabinets as well as selling furniture and the Royal Man Solutions and you can find that on royal Man Solutions dot com and um. One of the things that um Um I do is that I take some of these these kids from the community, take them on

deliveries with me and I pay them. It's it's an opportunity for them to learn the trade and the craft. But UM also UM learned the experience of working a job to be able to provide for themselves UM today, tomorrow into the future. I think it's really beautiful how he's carrying on with his life with without the bitterness and the baggage. He's very much radiant soul. He's given back to his community. And we'll have links to Carl's work in the Bile so you can flood him with

love there. And now we'll go to closing part of our show. I want to thank the listeners for having me as your guest host, and of course thanks to the two Carl's Carl Williams for allowing me the honor to tell this story, and Carl Leonard for his work on behalf of the wrongfully Convicted. This last bit of the show we call closing arguments. I'm gonna step away from the mic and let Carl and Carl have the last words. The way to avoid wrongful convictions in the

first place. The way to fix the wrong force convictions that we have is for the people who are listening to the program to vote. Vote for prosecutors who are going to change the way these officers work. Vote for mayors who are going to appoint police cheeks. So we're gonna change the way police departments work. It's a slow process. It doesn't help people like Carl, but hopefully it helps

prevent more people like Carl. It get the people out who are locked up wrongfully, stop sending around people to prison. And I think the only way that we can do that is to vote for better leaders. I certainly agree.

I'm reaching out to UM different legislators UM making the argument about how the narrative surrounding role for convictions needs to change, how they need to be a calling for people being held responsible for allowing role for convictions and annoyingly committing crimes with prosecure the misconduct with police brutality where there be charges brought against them because their crimes. If I committed the crime, you will bring your charge

against me. They It shouldn't be no difference. The other thing is is that I thank y'all for being able to tell the stories of those who are wrongfully convicted. This allows an audience to um hear the story, make a decision, and hopefully be active to change the narrative as well. It's important to inform the public so they can definitely be involved and get involved. It makes them more capable, more able, and more fit in terms of

serving to change the narrative of our wrongful convictions. Thank you for listening at Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to thank our executive producers Jason Flynn and Kevin Wardis. The Senior producer for this episode is Jackie Polly, and our producers are Lila Robinson, Connor Hall and Jeff clad Barn. Our editor is Roxander Guidi and special thanks to Jillian Forstad for help on this episode. The music and this production

is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast as, and on Twitter at wrong Conviction, as well as Lava for Good. On all three platforms, you can also follow me on Facebook and Instagram at free Patrick Pursley at I Am Kid Culture Too, and online at i Am Kid Culture dot org. Wrangful Conviction is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and

association with Signal Company Number one. Next week, on the guest hosted episodes of ronfl Conviction, Patrick Persley will interview Eric Blackman, a fellow aux HONERI and someone he knew well inside prison. They're going to talk about the toxic criminal justice system in Chicago and how Eric ended up in prison for a crime he didn't commit. I mean, he couldn't have committed it. The guy had dozens, literally

dozens of alibi witnesses. Now, Patrick, by the way, is someone I mean, this guy is such an incredible human. During his almost three decades wrongly convicted in some of the most dangerous, deadly prisons in America, he somehow figured out how to change the law that allowed for the evidence in his case to be tested, which ultimately proved his innocence and led to his exoneration. So this is going to be an incredible conversation. Listen next Monday in the Wrongful Conviction podcast feed