#238 Jason Flom and Kim Kardashian on Julius Jones

for John Marian Grant on November one. Despite this tragic event and a recommendation from the Oklahoma Board of Pardons and Paroles to commute Julius Jones's sentence, his execution date continued to loom on the eighteenths but through the tireless advocacy of Julius's family, Kim Kardashian, the Reverend C. C. Jones, Davis, Attorney Dale Bache, Scott Budnick, myself, of course, it's so

many others, along with countless concerned citizens like you. Governor Stitt finally granted Julius's clemency just hours before he was set to be killed. No, you might recognize that the tone of my voice still sounds heavy, and that's because although Julius will be spared, the fate of another grizzly and bungled execution in Oklahoma, the conditions of his clemency

are hardly caused for celebration. The governor commuted his sentence to life without the possibility of parole, along with the gratuitously cruel stipulation that Julius shall never be eligible to apply for or be considered for a commutation, pardon, or parole for the rest of his life. However, Julius's attorney, Dale Beach assures me that the fight for this innocent man's freedom is far from over. On July, Paul Howell was shot twice at the driveway into Edmund, Oklahoma, in

a robbery for his GMC suburban. According to his sister, the shooter was an African American male wearing a red band down across his face and a stocking cap with up to an Jip Harris sticking out from the bottom. According to numerous non incentivized sworn Affi Davits, the code defender in this case, Chris Jordan's, has since bragged about being the shooter and framing his former friend Julius Jones.

On the night of the shooting, Julius was at home with his family The evening following the murder, Chris Jordan's spent the night at the Joneses, which was when he said he hit the gun in a second story call space Confidential informants in the stolen car trade, including a longtime associated Chris Jordan, ladele King, deflected investigators toward Chris Jordan and Julius. Chris eventually gave seven statements riddled with inconsistencies,

blaming Julius Jones for the murder. On July thirty, police searched at Jones's home and found the gun exactly what Chris Jordan is believed to have hidden it. With nothing presented to defend against the planted evidence and the incentivized testimony of liddel King and Chris Jordan's, Julius was sent to Oklahoma's death row. On this episode, we team up with one of Julius's fierce's advocates, Kim Kardashian, as we speak with his attorney, Dale Bache and his mother and sister,

Madeline and Antwina Jones. This is Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flopper today, we're here to talk about Julius Jones, who has been on death row in Oklahoma for over twenty years for a crime he didn't commit. And I'd like to welcome a very special guest. You'll recognize her name, and you'll recognize her from having been on this podcast before. Kim Kardashian West. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason

flam Hi. Thank you for having me again. I can't overstate the importance of you being here today with us, Kim, because if we don't take every possible action that we can, and I mean the audience too, Julius will be executed in Oklahoma as early as this fall for a crime we know he didn't commit. Cam, can you tell us when you first heard about this case. Yeah, I first

started to receive letters. They were from a woman named Terry McCarthy, probably thirty letters from her, and she was kind of reiterating the same information about Julius and mentioned the documentary with Viola Davis. So I thought, I have to look into this. And I say this all the time because we have such an amazing group of people,

between you and Scott Budnick, my attorneys and everyone. When all of the big players really feel the same way about a case, I know that we have to be loud, and I feel in my soul that we are early enough because an execution date for Julius hasn't been set yet that I just I feel like now is the time where we all just have to come together and

really make a difference in his life. What about this particular case, about his case makes you so passionate and what sticks out to you the most about Julius's case, There's a few things. Being a young, honorable student athlete, you have your whole life ahead of you. Everyone around always says what an amazing person he is, that grew up with him, his coaches, and then to see getting caught up with the wrong group of people and getting set up the way he was just really rubbed me

the wrong way. That someone's life, a young kid's life, was just taken away. It always goes back to me thinking about what if that was my son? What would I do if my son got set up like this? So we gotta fight for this guy. We got to help him get his life back. The next voice you here is going to be the voice of Dale Bache, an assistant federal public defender who is definitely doing his part to help to unravel this nightmare? When did you get involved with it? In two thousand and sixteen, our

office was appointed to represent Julius in clemency proceedings. And this really is a terrible crime. I mean, you have Paul Howell, a forty five year old church deacon and business owner, family guy, returning to his parents home in the Oklahoma City suburb of Edmund from a school supply shopping trip with his seven and nine year old daughters

and his sister, Megan Toby in the car. Now, as he was getting out of the GMC suburban, a black man and a stock and cap with about an inch of hair sticking out from the bottom and a red bandanna tied around his face stepped up to Paul and demanded the suburban and fired his gun twice, mortally wounding Paul. As his daughters and sister ran screaming to the house

for cover, the gunmen sped away in the suburban. And from what we know now, and remember this is an addition to what was known when we first released this episode, according to three men and counting, not just the original two. These are three men who all knew Chris Jordan's in prison and or in jail and none of these men have been incentivized in any way, Okay, And they've all sworn to have been told by Chris Jordan directly that Chris did this shooting and that his former friend Julius

Jones was not involved. I mean, that's powerful stuff right there. Okay. But at the time of this investigation, the cops went looking for the usual suspects in the stolen car trade. First they went to a guy named Kermit Lotty. He led them to Lidel King, who was an associate of Chris Jordan's, who then add them to Jordan's and eventually Julius Jones. But the cops caught Chris Jordan's first, right, So can you walk us through some of the things

that Chris Jordan's told them? Sure. On July, according to Chris Jordan's, who is the co defendant in this case, he and Julius were driving around looking for a suburban to jack. They spotted a car, followed it into a neighborhood, and according to Chris Jordan's, Julius jumped out of the car when the car pulled into the driveway and shot Paul Howell. When Chris Jordan was taken into custody. That's what he told the police, and they immediately focused on

Julius tunnel vision set in. But what we now know is Chris made seven different statements to the police and those statements were in concer system and at one point the police say, what you're telling us, it's not adding up. We don't have this backwards, do we. So the police knew that there were problems with what Chris was telling them,

but the police continue to focus on Julius. And something that really struck me when reading about this case is that, according to the non incentivized witnesses who knew Chris Jordan and jail prison or both, as well as to statements that Jordan himself later made to the police, Chris Jordan's on the night after the shooting, but before he was arrested and gave his initial statement, slept at the Joneses home. Chris slept to the Jones's home, which is where he

said he stashed a murder weapon. So on its face, the gun being found at the Joneses looks damning for Julius at that time, but now in hindsight, it just further points in that the action of Chris Jordan's culpability. Well, we know that when Chris was interviewed by the police, he was asked, so you hid the murder weapon, and he responded yeah. Chris also told one of the men that he spoke to while in custody in the county jail that he wrapped the gun used to commit the

murder and hid it in Julius's parents house. We understand that Chris was sitting in a police car outside of Julius's house after the police stormed the home and then went looking for the gun and immediately went to where we think Chris told them the gun would be located. We also know that there were other people involved, namely Kermit Lottie and Liddell King, that had a lot to gain by pointing in Julius's direction away from themselves. Can

you tell us about Kermit and Ladell. Kermit Lottie was a man who ran a chop shop on the south side of Oklahoma City, and it was a well known establishment in the trade of stealing cars. Liddel King was a close confidante of Kermits and was known for his involvement in that trade. Adel King was also a confidential informant and in exchange for providing information to the police, he would be allowed to carry on with some of

his illegal activities. At the time of Julius's trial, liddel King was facing bogus check charges and as a habitual offender, he was looking to twenty years, and in exchange for his testimony, he got ten years probation. Liddell was one of the guys that pointed the finger at Julius. So this paints a pretty strong picture of a sort of a unit. Right. You had Chris Jordan's who was a

troubled kid. You had these two other known criminals, particularly ensconced in the stolen car business, and then you have a car that gets stolen in a violent brobberty tragic death. But we know a number of things that would make anyone go wait. I mean, for instance, we know that the number of shellwcasing stounded the scene was something that was known and volunteered by Chris and his interrogation before the police even asked or suggested it. We know that

the witnesses were incentivized. We know that the description matches someone very much like Chris Jordan's who doesn't look like Julius Megan Toby. Mr Howell's sister was in the car with him when he pulled into the driveway, and she testified that she saw the person who shot her brother, and she described him African American, wearing a red bandana across his face, wearing a black stocking cap, and half an inch of hair hanging out from under the cap.

What's critical about that is Julius wore his hair close crop, very short. Chris Jordan's, on the other hand, wore his hair in braids. And how do we know that Julius's hair was was short. Ten days prior to Mr Howell's murder, Julius got picked up on a traffic stop and had a mug shot taken. So there's an official government photo of Julius with short hair, and that photograph was never

shown to the jury at trial. We also know that Julius was at home with his family at the time Mr Howell was shot and killed, and later that evening, Chris and Julius were supposed to draw I've down to Norman, Oklahoma, which is about twenty minutes south of Oklahoma City. Julius was at home getting a little agitated because Chris said he would be there early in the evening and Kristen and show up until close to midnight. We also have

with us julius sister Antoinette, and his mother Madeleine. Now Here, you have a son who is excelling in so many ways, co captain of three different sports teams in high school, academic scholarship at Oklahoma University, great looking young man with his whole life laid out in front of him, and then everything takes a terrible, terrible turn. It's been a twenty plus year shock and I really can't often find the worst explain what it's been like. We just got blindsided.

It sure seems like he went from the American dream to the American nightmare. And let's go to that faithful night, July. Can you tell us what was happening that night and why and how you know that Julius could not possibly have been there? Uh, that was kind of a busy day for us. I was trying to do Antunette's hair, I was fixing, uh spaghetti, But Julius was there all day long. They played monopoly. There were a few of

us for a monopoly. Julius was there for a monopoly and from my oldest brother, Antonio, and another young man that was over there. They got mad at me because I gave Jesus all my money and property. I had to do that because I had to get my her done. So it's specific things like that, Like I know that it was around Jesus birthday. Jesus friend had a big chocolate chip cookie that she gave to him for his birthday. Tony camp going in and out of the refrigerator to

take pieces of the cookie. And later on that day, my brother Antonio had to go to work. My mother went to go take him to work. Julius looks an refrigerator and he's like, oh my goodness. He was like, who ate my cooking? And I kid you not. He waited at the back door in the kitchen, pacing back and forth, waiting for mom to come home. So you could tell that somebody ate his cookie. So I kind of was like, well, you know, I was like to

cook and so I'll never forget that day. So it doesn't seem like someone who just murdered somebody would be particularly concerned over how much of a cookie was left in the refrigerator or not. Um. I mean, that's just one of many many things. You know, So July he's home with you. It sounds like sort of a typical

family night. But then things changed dramatically in the next thirty six hours, right the twenty nine, Chris is at your home, right, he spent the night that night, which is when he had the opportunity to plant the gun. Do you recall Chris being at your house that night? Thursday? It was trash day and Jews usually take some trash outain sometimes we sit and talk on the walk away. But Chris was kind of like a shadow was there. And when that were you there that night? Do you

remember if Chris was at the house. I know Chris was there because I heard him come upstairs and go into the room that was Julius. The very next day, the police would surround the Jones house. Julia's family was perp walked out of their own home, and Chris Jordan's would be in a police car out front to tell them exactly where the murder weapon was hidden. Julius was appointed a good attorney, Mr Barry Albert, who was known

for his skill and unorthodox but effective courtroom style. But Mr Albert he died shortly before the trial leaving his new public defenders woefully unprepared, so much so that they didn't put on any defense whatsoever. When it came time for Julius to present his case, the warriors simply stood up and said the defense rapped. The lawyers did not put on testimony from the family who would have presented

an alibi. The lawyers did not investigate and present evidence from two people who were in jail, who didn't know each other and independently came forward and said that Chris Jordan's told them that he said Julius up. He told one of the men that he planted the weapon in Julius's house, and he told both of the men that he would be getting out of prison after serving a fifteen year sentence in exchange for his testimony against Julius.

The inconsistent statements that Chris made to the police during his interrogation were never explored by the defense when they had an opportunity to cross examine Chris. It's an inexplicable lapse. In fact, it's totally understandable. Why did your would have voted to convict. They didn't have any information to work with except what the state was saying. What was it like, uh,

seeing your your baby going through this trial. Well, at the beginning, I was very confident because the attorney that we had, Mr Abbot, he was very thorough and he talked to us and he said, I just need to get Chris on the stand. Mr Abbot had a plan before he passed away. The opponent attonis they wanted more time, and then after he passed away, then they wanted to immediately started with trial and everything. And we were there

every day. But one of the excuses after Mr Abbott had passed, they said the reason they didn't call us understand it after they had sentenced Julius because they didn't know we were there. It was just a mockery. I was devastated. I was devastated when I heard the word we rest. I think I was a little older than thirteen. I didn't understand how you couldn't put people understand to help my brother's defense. There was no defense there. And then,

I mean, it just that pieces me out. It infuriates me to hear when cases when there's ineffective counsel, and it just makes me so mad, especially if it's an appointed attorney, that you think that if you don't have the money to afford an attorney, and so you're getting a pointed one that they're going to be ineffective and not help but actually hurt your case so much. I mean, I don't know how I could live with myself if

I was an attorney like that. But I think, especially with julius case, he just didn't get a fair trial. Bottom line, as we've heard at Julius's trial, the defense didn't even give the jury much information to work with. But believe it or not, it gets even worse. During the trial in the jury room, one of the jurors said out loud, why are we wasting our time here?

We ought to just take that end out back and bury him outside the jail, and one of the jurors approached a bailiff told him what she heard and asked to talk to the judge on the record. The judge sort of dismissed it as well. He could have been talking about Osama bin Laden. We don't know who the juror was talking about. Take the N word out of the equation. You still have a juror who made up his mind and was going to convict Julius and sentence him to death. Throw the N word in there, and

the racism is just oozing from this case. We also know that between and two thousand and twelve, there was a study conducted in Oklahoma on race and the death penalty. The authors concluded that an African American male who is convicted of killing a white male is three times more likely to get the death penalty in Oklahoma. So at trial,

yet racism incentivized lying witnesses and no defense whatsoever. So Dale, what you took on this case, You guys had your work cut out for you, to say the least, But there was a new law in place in Oklahoma that allowed you to do DNA testing and post conviction, so you tested the red bandanna right it was sitting in

in evidence for almost twenty years. Dr Shapira, he used to be with the Department of Forensic Biology at the Medical Examiner's Office in New York City, reviewed the d N A report that was produced by Bodhi Sellmark and came to some conclusions. So one of the things that Megan Toby, the victim's sister, testified to was that the shooter yelled something at her is she was running away, and we identified a stain on the bandanna, and we wanted to check if that stain was saliva, and it

came back negative as to saliva. So we don't even know if that bandanna was the same bandanna that the assailant war because there's not the saliva stain on it that should be there. Because the assailant yelled, don't forget, this was July in Oklahoma coma right, So you do have to suspend a lot of this belief to come up with the conclusion that someone Julius or anyone is going to be in an extremely high pressure situation on a very hot day and not sweat or breathe into

the bandanna that they're supposedly wearing on their face. We don't know. We'll never know whether the gun was wrapped in the bandanna, or whether the gun was taken and placed in the bandanna by the authorities when they were taking it out. One would hope they would put it in an evidence bag instead, But the state made a big deal about the fact that there were several different people's DNA on this bandanna, and that one of the

people seems to be somewhat consistent with Julius. Can you elaborate on what that really means because some people would look at that and go, oh, wait a minute, Then you know, I guess I got the right guy after all. Right, case closed. But the testing indicates that the d NA was degraded and was defined as trace d NA, which suggests that the d NA could have been transferred to the item. So the bandanna is found in Julius's house,

it's handled by the police, it's in his bedroom. It's very possible that any d n A on there that could be consistent with Julius's could come about as a result of the transfer of the d n A. So here's what we're faced with. It seems to me and correct me if I'm wrong on any of these fronts. Julius didn't match the eyewitness description. His hair was short and could never have stuck out from a stocking cap,

but Chris Jordan's absolutely could have. Chris Jordan's gave a confession that was riddled with inconsistencies and false as he changed his story numerous times. Chris also admitted to planting the gun exactly where the police founded in Julius's house on more than one occasion. There's no salivary DNA on the bandanna and evidence, and it doesn't seem to be the one that was worn across the shooters or anyone's

face anyway. And I'm leaving out other exculpatory stuff. Forget to incompetent defense, forget the racial bias, forget the jury, forget everything. Those facts alone would seem to be enough to unravel this. And then you add to it that the only thing connecting to it are the words of two highly incentivized witnesses, both of whom happened to be career criminals, who were maybe an offer they could almost

con't refused. I mean they were given it, an offer that they would be able to avoid lengthy prison sentences of their own in exchange for their testimony against Julius. Does that pretty much sum it up? That's it? And one would think that, you know, why is Julius even in prison, let alone on death row? But that's not how it turned out. This leads to my next question, Kim, his only contact to the outside world is through letters. Have you gotten letters directly from him or have you

corresponded with him in any way? I have, yes, you know, just hearing what he has to say, And I mean, what I can't understand, but I'm so grateful for is someone in Julius's situation who could just be so angry at the world, and I don't I don't know how I would act if I was in his situation. But to see the grace that he has and to see how he's fighting through this and won't give up, it inspires me. So I want to fight like I. We

need him to get out. I mean, just to even know that because he was an athlete, to see a lot of athletes support him and write letters on his behalf now to send to the governor has been so amazing to see. You know, when he was playing ball, Blake Griffin's dad was his coach, and it's completely in support of Julius and Blake Griffin wrote an amazing, heartfelt letter for the governor to see in support of Julius's release.

Russell Westbrook. There's been some amazing people that really want to see him released as well, people that grew up there, people that played their Carmelo Anthony who played in Oklahoma for a little while. His wife is my best friend. You know. I sent him all the facts and he wrote a letter as well. It's amazing to see the support that has come together. And I hope that everyone really pays attention before it's too late, because we will

not go out easy on this one. And we know that the governor of Oklahoma is a guy who cares about criminal justice reform. He's done some positive things for sure. It would be hard to imagine that he and the members of the Parole Board wouldn't be moved to take action here. Between the outcry and the public, the support of prominent people, faith leaders and business leaders, so many different people, and the facts of the case cry out

for justice. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, everyone always asked me like, well, what can we do? And I think the most important thing to do is call the Governor's office and elected officials that can really make a difference and just be really loud. And you should go to Justice for Julius Jones dot com first of all,

look into his case. Everything is on this website, from the documentary The Last Offense with Viola Davis to where you can sign the petition in favor of Julius, and you can also subscribe to stay up to date on what's going on. And it even gives you a link to email the Parole Board. I do believe that the Parole Board is like in favor of reform. I believe everyone is very compassionate from what I've heard. So I just urged everyone please sign the petition for Julius Jones

if you're moved by his story. I've done it. I believe in him so much. I believe in his innocence. Justice for Julius Jones dot Com. When we initially released this episode, as you heard mentioned several times throughout, there were two witnesses who had been in jail with Chris Jordan's and they are Manuel Little John and Christopher Barry. Now since then there's been a third man. Now, mind you, only the state can incentivize a witness. Everybody knows this right.

It's totally illegal for anyone but the state to bribe a witness. So these men have nothing to gain by coming forward. In fact, they have a lot to lose. Here's what Manuel Little John said in his two thousand and four sworn affid David Quote. Jordan's stated that he felt guilty because he was going to implicate his co defendant, Julius Jones in a murder case to avoid getting the

death penalty for himself. That's end quote. And Little John's affid David, after admitting to hiding the gun in the jones Is home, Jordan's stated to Little John, quote Julius didn't do it, and quote Julius wasn't there. Then Christopher Barry in his two thousand and four sworn affid David, referring to what Chris Jordan had told him, quote he was the actual person who shot the victim in his case.

Mr Jordan's also said, I'm still quoting that because he was the first person to talk to police, he was getting a deal and would not get the death penalty. End quote. And finally, in March one, we have a sworn affidavit from Roderick Wesley and he says the following on video about his interaction with Chris Jordan's. Me and uh Jo and had worked together. One day. We're sitting there and I'm telling him about my situation. He pretty

much told me about his. I guess you could say he was being sort of remorseful, but it was one of the cases where I'm sorry, but I'm not gonna jump out there and just you know, throw myself to the wolves like that, and so when he ended up breaking it down, it was pretty much like, you know, yeah, I committed the end that somebody else is getting accused though you know he admitted that he won, you know, did killer and it wasn't this guy. You know, it

was a big decision, is do I jump out there? What? But I looked at it is if it was my situation, I was one with somebody who has information to go ahead and do it. Because this is a man life online. I mean, what can I possibly add to further prove what we've been all saying all along, Julius Jones is an innocent man on death row and Wahoma. Since almost seven million people have signed a petition on Julius behalf bankers, boxes of signatures were delivered to the Oklahoma Bord of

Partons in Parole begging for justice in this case. And now since this latest statement from Roderick Wesley, Julius has been granted a hearing. It's a Stage two commutation hearing in front of the Oklahoma Board of Partons in Parole that's happening on September one. But that doesn't mean it's time to rest or relax. Now is the time to ramp up the pressure. If you'd like to add your name to that petition, it's going to be linked in

the bio. Please help us keep the pressure on. And with that we're going to go to closing arguments, where, of course, first of all, I think all of you, and now we're going to hear from Dale, Antoinette, and of course Julius's mother, Madeleine. But let's kick it off with you first. Kim Oh, thank you for having me on here, and thank you for everything that you do

and for showing me the way. Seriously, I look up to you so much, and I'm so grateful to you for sharing so many cases with me and that we're able to hopefully open up people's minds and hearts that might have been a little bit closed off when it comes to reform, or might not understood how they could help, and then we're giving them a platform where they can help out and be a part of the conversation and

help fight for people that really really deserve it. So thank you Dale, You've done a fantastic job and I appreciate you making the time. I know it's going to make a difference. Well, thank you, Jason. We have a commutation application pending before the Oklahoma Pardon in Parole Board. Julius is thankful for all the support, the prayers, the letters that he has received that is giving him strength.

This case got the attention it deserved when Viola Davis in Julius Tennan produced the last defense that put light on this injustice and wrongful conviction. What's troubling to me, and we should all be concerned about this, is that without the last defense, no one would be interested in this case. Julius would have been just another African American man in prison saying he was innocent, one of the

four percent, and no one would care. There are thousands of julius is behind bars today and people should care. And we know you care, Jason, and we appreciate that this struggle isn't over. Thank you very much. Why don't we save mom for last, because you know she's mom, So Antoinette over to you, so first, I would say, then, my brother, Julius, there is Jones. He did not kill Paul Hall. My brother is a human being. He is

not a number. When we consider people human beings and not just numbers, and we really take into account all the facts. I'm just asking them to correct this wrong. I'm asking you to look at all of the key points in this case. I'm asking you to understand that my brother never got a fair defense. He never got a proper defense, he never got a juror of his peers, he never got a chance to voice what happened to

him from his side. And I'm just asking you, as a human being, to understand and take my brother in consideration as a human being and not a number. He is not a person that would take a life. He is a person that will protect the life. He is a person that cares about everybody's well being. To this day, he cares. He cares more about how everybody else is doing then how he's doing inside. That's who my brother is. He's a person that cares. He's a loyal person. He

is a person that loves life. I never gave up and I'm still not gonna give up. We shall not give up. We shall not rest. Even though the defense rest for him, we shall not rest. Thank you, thank you, And now for the final words, Madeline. First of all,

Julius is a good person. He's very kind, he's loving, compassion, and a lot of times he will hurt himself to keep from hurting someone else, and that's the reason he's in predicament he's in now, and I just want to say to the parlor board that one size does not fit all, and that I would like for him to take careful consideration concerning Julius and to look at what he will be able to contribute to society if they

spare his life. We just need to try to get things right because when justice is covered up, it stays covered for so long, but it'll either burned through or it will grow. And right now, I feel like that justice is growing because uh, it wants to be heard and it wants to be fulfilled. What it's really meant to be justice for all, not just for some of us. And you know, freedom is worth more than money. My biggest joy is to help my son home and to be about the things that he's dream and long to

want to do. And I thank God for this opportunity today to be able to express so many things that I've helped in today. I really thank God for you, Jason. I thank God for people like you. Thank you for listening to wrongful Conviction. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall Justin Golden, Jeff Clyburne, and Kevin Wardis, with research by Lila Robinson. The music in this production was

supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast, and on Twitter at wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On all three platforms, You can also follow me on both TikTok and Instagram at It's Jason flam Ralevul Conviction is the production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one