#225 Jason Flom and Laura Nirider with Brendan Dassey

everyone from legal experts to everyday people. In fact, I want to shout out one particularly dedicated group of online supporters that's been doing some pretty incredible work over the past year. They've done everything from organizing email campaigns to placing free Brendan Dascy billboards along Wisconsin highways. Their message has reached more than one point eight million people so far.

Their dedication is amazing and yours is too. So to all of Brendan' supporters and to Brendan himself and so many others like him, we're rereleasing this episode for you. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flum. You know many of our listeners. Most of our listeners have seen the Netflix original series Making a Murderer. It's the story of Stephen Avery, a guy from the wrong side of the tracks whose family owned an auto salvage yard and Manitowac, Wisconsin.

It starts off in where and Stephen Avery was wrongfully convicted of a sexual assault, for which he was exonerated eighteen years later when the DNA in the case was found to match another man and his alibis were proven to have been true all along. After his release. In two thousand three, Avery file the thirty six million dollars civil suit against Manitowa County, Wisconsin, and several of its officials.

Fast forward to two thousand five, Teresa Hauback, a photographer known to have been photographing cars on the Avery property, went missing. The handling of the investigation was quite controversial, to say the least, with issues of evidence tampering, not to mention the obvious conflict of interest in allowing Manitoa County to investigate the very same man who was suing

them for thirty six million dollars. However, all of that aside, the most damning piece of evidence came in the form of a false confession from Avery's nephew, Brendon Dascy, a sixteen year old boy with no criminal record and serious mental challenges. Now I'm honored to present the exclusive, the one and only interview that Brendan has ever given to anyone joining us has Esteemed Appella, attorney from the Center on Wrongful Convictions at Northwestern University, my friend Laura Ni Rider.

Laura was kind enough to pick me up from the airport in Chicago and we drove out to Oshkosh Kara Scational Facility for a pre interview behind bars with Brendon. This left us with both time to talk and plenty to talk about. We have had a very eventful last twenty four hours. Yeah, you know, it's been a trip I've done so many times for going on twelve years now, and you know, I was a trip I hoped to

never have to make again. But it's a trip that, you know what, We're going to keep on doing um for as long as we have to do right, go out there support him, and I'm just glad he had a chance to see who Brendan is, you know, to really spend some time with him and get to know him because he's a he's a pretty incredible guy. Brendon is a very powerful example of a phenomenon that amazes me and keeps me going and drives me onward in this fight, which is that there is an absolute and

total absence of malice, anger, bitterness, self pity. Like I don't even think he knows what those emotions are. He's an incredible guy. I mean, you know, he was sixteen when he went in. He's twenty nine years old now. And during that whole period of time of knowing him, You're right, I mean, Brendan is a sweet soul. You know, he's a he's a simple guy. He's a funny guy. He's gentle. He's so gentle and kind, but not shallow and he no, no, he's not. That's right, And in

his story is one of extreme juxtaposition. Right, But because he went from being a very childlike young person adolescent into a very extreme grown up situation. You got involved with Brendan's case at what stage? Well, let's start with Steve Drisen, my colleague on the case. In two thousand seven, about three months after Brendan was convicted. At his trial, Steve was asked to handle Brendan's appeals going forward because

of his expertise around interrogations and confessions. Yes, it was just another of the two point two million people in prison, and Steve took the case. Now this is two thousand seven, Okay. So at the time, Steve was teaching here at Northwestern Law School, and I was a third year law student in Steve's class on wrongful convictions. Now, I didn't intend to practice criminal law. I actually had a career all mapped out for myself as a business lawyer. I was going to go do that. I had a job lined

up after graduation. I knew nothing at a law firm here in town, here in Chicago. And you know, I knew nothing about the criminal justice system. I knew nothing about wrongful convictions. I definitely knew nothing about false confessions. But I had signed up for Steve's class, you know, on a whim, try to do something off the beaten path.

And a few months into that fall semester of my last year of law school, that's you know, Steve called me into his office and he said, I've just gotten involved in a case from Wisconsin involving a six teen year old boy with intellectual limitations who confessed to a crime that I don't think he committed. And he handed me the interrogation videos from Brendon Daisy's case, right the same videos that years and years later ended up in Making a Murderer. And he told me to go watch them.

So I went home. I sat down on my couch, I got at my laptop, because this is two thousand seven, I popp in these DVDs and I watched them all right, from start to finish, their confession tapes, and my heart broke and I knew that this is it. This is what I had to do with, you know, fight for people like Brendan. So um, you know, no more, no

more business law for me. I came back to Northwestern after graduating, and for the last twelve years I've been building with Steve the Center on Wrongful Convictions, where we represent Brendon and other kids just like him. So for the people who may not have seen Making Murderer, and there are those who listen to our show who haven't seen it yet, what was it? What was the moment? What was it about those tapes? Yeah, it's a great question, you know, I actually remember the moment, right it's so

this is a videotape of the entire interrogation. Right. He was actually questioned four times over forty eight hours, and it was only the last interrogation that produced the confession. You know which I which I say on quotation marks. Um. But this is an interrogation where they're asking Brendan about murder. Right, this is a murder case. So they want to ask him about, you know, how was the victim in this case?

How was Theresa Hallback killed? Right? And and these police going into the interrogation, they know, or they think they know based on their own investigation, that she had been shot in the head. So they're waiting for Brendan to describe shooting somebody in the head, right, So they asked him, you know, Brendan, how did you guys? You know, how did how did you kill Theresa Halback? And he says,

we choked her. Well, that's that's not right. So they said him, okay, um, you know what else, Brendan, what else did you do to her? Did he do it where we know something else was done? We stabbed her? Still not right, So they actually started not even close, so they started dropping him hints, right, They said come on, Brendon, something with the head, something with the head. What else did you guys do to her? And Brendan says, we

punched her and that's still not right. So it's like Brendan's completely at sea and he says, you know, we caught off her hair, her hair, and as voice goes up like that like he's asking a question, and no, no, no, Brendan, come on, what else? What else? Something with the head? What else? What else? What else was done to her head?

And it goes on and on and on, and finally Brendan you he must get exhausted, and he just says and the officers at that point say to him, Brendan, I'm just going to come out and ask you all to come out and ask him who shot her in the head, And you know, Brendan says, well, that was that was my uncle Stephen. And then, you know, comes one of the most heartbreaking moments of the entire interrogation because they say to him, Brendan, why didn't you just tell us that? Why did you tell us that? And

he says, because I couldn't think of it right. He was guessing. Yeah, So let's say you're not convinced the way I am that Brendan was guessing. Let's say for a moment that the story was true, that this bloody attack occurred in Stephen Avery's bedroom the way that Brendan's confession claimed that it did. You'd expect that bedroom and that bed to be covered with forensic evidence, blood from a stabbing and throat cutting, hair from when her hair

was supposedly cut. I mean, think about how hard it is to clean up hair. And of course, after Brendan gave his confession, the police went back to Stephen Avery's bedroom and they searched it for evidence to corroborate the confession. They searched the bed, They searched the bedding, the mattress, the headboard, the bed frame. They looked at the carpet underneath the bed. They pulled that carpet back and looked

underneath the carpet. They even took the paneling off the walls in the bedroom, searching for a single molecule of Teresa Halbos DNA or Brendon Dancy's DNA, and they found nothing. This story didn't happen. It's made up. The day after our face to face meeting at Oshkosh Correctional. We did our formal interview with Brendan over the phone from Laura's office at Northwestern University, pod Gotten directional level. Hello Brendan,

Hi Brandon. It seems like only yesterday that I saw you, because it was only yesterday, and it was great to

meet you. You know, Laura and I had a long ride back to Chicago, and obviously we talked about you a lot and things that we are hoping to do to make a difference for you and with you, I mean, well, to wait for the announcement to go by, you went through an ordeal that even those of us that have seen the show and have seen on video parts of what happened, obviously we couldn't see the whole thing, but none of us can understand what it would be like to be in your shoes, you know, to be in

this impossible situation of being a really a child at sixteen. You're still a child, You're not a grown man, and to be going to this interrogation where you have grown men who are interrogating you for days, without a parent, without a lawyer, without anyone to help you. I mean, were you scared or were you just thought maybe if you just told the truth, everything would be fine or what was your thought process at that point? Well, I just wanted it all over with, so I said whatever

they wanted to hear. You know, most people grow up as I did, with believing that the law enforcement are out to help us, right, there are people you call when you need help. Did you have that same idea when you went in there? Yeah? I thought maybe anything I can do to help them, you know I would. So was there a point when you're in that horrible room where you started to worry about the outcome, or that you thought that these men may have been not

as well intentioned as you originally thought. Yeah, when they started saying that that I wasn't telling the truth and that that my story didn't fit the facts that they had, that's when I started getting worried. There's a very good reason your story didn't fit the fact Guys, you didn't know the facts. So, Brandon, you remember there was a time when the interrogators left the room for a few minutes and your mom came back into the room. Ye beautiful, Yeah,

did you huh? Really do you need not? Really? Huh? What do you mean by that? So? Was that the first time you had seen your mom since they had started interrogating you. Yeah, that is okay. So what was it like to see her after being alone with those interrogator for such a long time. I felt that I could be safe and I could tell her the truth. You know, that they got into my head, They got

me to say whatever they wanted. Do you think either before, during, or after that, the detectives conducting that interrogation knew or realized that he was actually innocent? You know, it's a it's a very good question, and it's something I've asked myself right over and over again. Um, this is just my opinion, But I think that they we're worried that something has gone wrong. Brendan's already been in the box

for about three and a half hours. He's adopted their their theories that he committed rape and murder and the whole thing. And the story is over, it's done, it's locked, and they let her into the room, and the cameras are still rolling in the room, right and they leave two of them alone. You know, it's my theory that they were outside watching this all unclosed circuit camera, hoping

that Brendan was going to make more admissions to his mother. Instead, he recants one of the clearest recantations I've ever heard, Right, Brendan using his own words, his own ability to express himself, to tell his mom what he had just been through. They got to my head. And at that moment, the officers come barging back through that door into the interrogation room, and Brendon doesn't say another word. Oh yeah, I'm getting the chills. I mean, as a parent, it's just so heartbreaking.

And look, I always say, there are a lot of very good people in our criminal justice system, but the ones who do the types of things that were done to Brendon. I mean, there's a lot of villains in this story, right, some unbelievable characters in this story. Yeah, And so the system that was designed in theory to protect the innocent and this case, to protect Brendan failed at every level. I mean, starting in the interrogation room, that's right, Starting with the fact that they targeted him

in the first place. I don't really understand. I mean, I have a theory in my own head about why they may have done that, and maybe we'll never know, but it seems like to me they wanted to build a stronger case against even no doubt about it, and so they went for the weakest link. They knew that small community, they knew that Brendan was a simple person. Well, that's right, And you know, one of the things about Brendan,

of course, he's got disabilities. Everybody knows that. But his disabilities in particular are clustered around speech, the way he speaks, the way he hears language, way he processes words, and the way he uses his own words. Right, so you know, this is not a person who can sort of we've

sophisticated stories or lies or things like that. And of course these are disabilities that are at the center of an interrogation, right, the sort of sophisticated level of conversation talking about you know, what could happen to him if he if he didn't confess because there was a threat in this case, Well, what happened to him if he didn't start adopting the story that was being fed to him? What was going to happen on the other hand, if he if he did agree to go along with the story.

You know, this is a really hard situation for someone like Brendan, sixteen special education student in Wisconsin, public schools, hard situation for him to navigate. He did the best he could for as long as he could, for as long as he could. Four times, over forty eight hours, these officers questioned him, and they should have been a first round knockout. Oh my god, he held up as long as he could. We've been investigating long load. We already know what happened. To be a lot easier on you.

If you live on it, that's going to be problems. I'm your friends, really fair place trap by an honest persons get a better deal. A lot of that. You're gonna believe on that work. I don't believe in you can't make any problems. But we'll stand behind you. And your mom said you be honest, and she's behind you on on what happened because she thinks you know more, too more, and you're more important. We already know what

happened on Toss exactly. What would you tell people when they're sitting in that jury box and they're listening to incredible testimony videotapes, someone going yeah, I did it, yeah, So what should people? Because some confessions are true. Of course, some confessions are true. Those are the ones we want, right it's you know, we got to screen out the false confessions. Okay, So the big message, right, A confession is just a piece of evidence, like any other piece

of evidence. Right, Sometimes it can be misleading, and you question it and you examine it in the same way that you'd ask, you know, critical questions, intelligent questions about any other piece of evidence. Right, can I trust what this person is saying? So when you see a confession like Brendan Dacy's, where somebody is getting the facts of the crime wrong unless they're being told the right answer, that's a red flag. Right. It happens throughout Brendan's interrogation

details learn and small. He can't come up with He's guessing, and he guesses wrong, actually until he gets straightened out by the officers. Not just about how Teresa Hallback was killed, but he can't decide if for shirt was black or white. Right, he doesn't know what the what the right answer is because he never saw her, That's right. He can't decide if the fire was started at three pm or later on in the evening after dark, right, I mean, he

doesn't know these things. He's just guessing all over the place. And you see this repeatedly throughout false confession cases, because what you have in those cases are people who had nothing to do with the crime trying to say something that sounds believable to satisfy their interrogators. Almost everybody I've ever met says the same thing. I am not that guy. I'm smart, I'm capable, I'm strong, I'm not confessing to

crimit and commit. Everybody thinks it's right, Well, that's for other people, right, That's for you know, maybe mentally impaired people, that's for children maybe. So what you have to understand is that interrogation is a carefully orchestrated set of psychological tactics that are designed to get people off their belief in their own innocence and designed to actually make them believe that it will help them, that it will improve their situation, that it will benefit them to say they

did these things that the officers think. Right, these are incredibly powerful techniques, and every single one of us has a breaking point, and these techniques are designed to find it. So how does this work? Right? So, the way this basically works, interrogation is generally a two stage process. The first half is all about confrontation and reducing you down to hopelessness. Right, we know you did this. I've got so much evidence against you. No one is going to

believe you when you say you're innocent. Right, I've got three people in the room next door who picked you out of a lineup. I've got your DNA on the scene, I've got your fingerprints on the gun. Even if none of that is true. By the way, that's perfectly legal for police to lie. That's right. Not the UK, that's right, but here it's perfectly legal for the police to lie during interrogations. So they bring you down to hopelessness. Right, I'm not going to listen to you say you're innocent.

You're just making it worse off for yourself. No one's gonna believe you. You're caught, you're trapped, you're screwed, You've got nothing. And then when you reach that point of hopelessness, that's when they offer you and out right a life raft confession. It's going to help you. If you confess, We'll go easy on you. I'll go talk to the judge. Right, I'll see what I can do for you. You. Things are going to be so much better for you. You've got a whole life to live in front of you.

You're just a kid. People are going to understand that over and over, but I need to hear the story from you, right, People are gonna understand that you deserve help if you cooperate. That's how it works, right. These techniques are incredibly good at getting true confessions, but they're so potent that they also get false confessions. And this actually we're sitting here in Chicago, which is where this was originated, right, the read technique read technique actually even

better than that. It's originated here out of the work of a professor at Northwestern Law School back in the nineteen forties. Right. So before these that's right, before these psychological techniques were developed, interrogations were physical, right the third degree. People were beaten or hung out of windows. Right, this, this is how it was done. And in the forties, these people, who at the time were thought of as progressive reformers come along and say, you know what, let's

stop physically abusing people. Let's do this psychological techniques instead. Those techniques that were developed here at Northwestern here in Chicago back in the nineteen forties are still being used today. Talk about outdated. Even though the DNA revolution, which has been in full swing now for twenty five years, has proven time and again that these outdated techniques are far

too capable of coercing false confessions. The crazy thing is correct me if I'm wrong, you're the lawyer in this equation. But had Brendan said what I advise people listening to the show or anybody who asked me anywhere, if you're picked up for a crime that you didn't commit, and you're brought to the station, and you're placed in this situation, right, and you see to yourself, well, I don't want to

end up like Brendon. What do you do? I want a lawyer, that's what you say, right, I want a lawyer that stops the interrogation, or it should stop the interrogation. That's your constitutional right to say that. What's interesting, of course, you know the Miranda rights are read. Usually at the beginning of interrogations. People wave their Miranda rights. So I mean a huge number of people do, right. We think

of these as these important safeguards. And everybody's out there asserting their rights to lawyers, and they're right to be silent and all the you know, everybody waves these rights, and you know, We've all been in that situation, right where you get pulled over and you think you can talk your way out of it. People wave these rights. They don't understand how these rights can help them, especially kids. Right,

What does it mean to a kid? What does it mean to Brendan Dacy that he can have a lawyer in the room, his admissions will be used against him in court. He doesn't know what a lawyer does. He doesn't understand the ways in which a lawyer could help him, or improve his situation, or stop this from happening to him. But yeah, huge numbers of people wave those rights. And it's actually the numbers are even greater when we're talking

about innocent people. Sure, right, because you figured right, nothing to hide, of course, I'll talk to you, right. And you may also be sitting there thinking, well, if it's going to take a long time for a lawyer to get here waiting to do, let me just clear this up, no problem, I'll be out of here. We're begging you. This is Jason and Laura personally begging you. You're in that situation. There's only four words you need. I want a lawyer. Right. Part of the process that landed Brendon

in this situation, which was his own team. Can you tell us what that was like? I mean being represented by this guide. Um. When I first met him, I knew that he didn't have my best interest in in mind because he was always trying to get me to take a plea deal or something. So you knew right away. Yeah, Brendan, that a lot of credit to you, because you know, many people might not have picked up on that so quickly, because people go into that situation they think, well, this

is my lawyer. He's going to be protecting me and defending me. Yeah, so you knew right away. But then as things progressed, I mean, did you feel betrayed or did you feel hopeful that maybe he was going to turn it around and actually do his job. No, especially since that when I saw him on TV with Nancy Drace, you know, and he's more or less tolder that he believes that I'm guilty. Wow. Yeah, there's a lot of

things wrong with that whole scenario. I mean, as you mentioned that name Nancy Grayson, like you know, my skin crawls, um, and that. Yeah, the fact that he went on there with hers is horrible. And then you had this investigator who was supposed to be helping you. Yeah, and can you talk about that a little bit? What do you want to know? Well, when he was asking you to drop pictures and all these other things, and he was sort of badgering you, like, Brendan, you did this? What

about this investigator? At first I thought maybe he would try to help me, you know, but then when he was trying to get me to more or let's give another confession, you know, I knew right then and there that he wasn't at my side either. So basically, you had your family and and that was pretty much it. But they're not lawyers and they're not investigators. They're just just regular people. Right. Yeah, how did being represented or misrepresented by lenn and the things that he did, how

did that make you feel? It made me feel betrayed and that I couldn't really trust lawyers either, But now I can. What an insane set of twists and turns. Yeah, we've represented Brendan Dacy through the state court appeal system where the state courts and Wisconsin we're not particularly bothered by what they saw on that interrogation video, but we we sort of expected that, and then we took his case. As people who watched Making a Murderer will remember, we

took his case to the federal court system. Right with this basically works as you can go to federal court and you can say, hey, federal court, will you review the way in which the Wisconsin state courts protected Brendan's rights. So that's what we did. We went to the federal courts. We filed what's called a petition for a writ of habeas corpus, asking the federal court to take a look at how the state courts handled Brendan's case. But but

there's a trick here. Okay, So let's say you go into federal court and you proved to them beyond the shadow of a doubt right that the state court was wrong in how it handled Brendan's case, you lose. In order to win in federal court, you have to prove not only that the state court was wrong in how it handled Brendan's case, but that it was so unreasonably wrong that no other judge in America could possibly have

ruled the same way. Right. That's literally the legal standard thanks to the Anti Terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act signed into law in which keeps you know, a lot of innocent prisoners like Brendan Dacy from accessing this kind of relief in the federal courts. So that's the needle that you have to thread in federal court. So we filed our petition, you know, we we made these arguments, yes, this is that's not just wrong, it's it's unreasonably wrong.

No one else would rule this way. And we sat and waited months and months and months for a decision. And we got our decision. You know, we'd we'd won after years of representing Brendan, we'd won in the federal district court, you know, which is a moment of enormous joy, as you can imagine. But we knew, because we've pushed the boulder up the hill a lot of times before, we knew that that was just round one that the state had every right to appeal, that it was going

to appeal this case. And it did. That's right, that's right, um. And so when we found out that they were going to appeal, we said, you know what, that is your right. We can't stop you from doing that, but we want Brendan out right, We want him home. This is right around Thanksgiving, Um, we want him home for the holidays while you guys do your thing. So we asked the court to release Brendan during the appeals and you know, we made all of our arguments. Here's where he's going

to go live. He's going to be in a protected environment. We have a social worker on the space, you know, working on the case, identifying resources supports for him outside. And the court said, okay, yeah, let's let Brendan go home. Right, He's not a danger to this community. I believe in him. I can see it's gonna be fine, So let's release him.

And we had an order directing the State of Wisconsin to release Brendon Dacy and came within about twelve hours of getting Brendon out before the State of Wisconsin asked the appeals court to block that order and they did. So, you know, okay, um, we go forward with the appeal. The state files, it's briefed, we file our briefs, We argue it out in court before the appeals court, the federal appeals courts, and again, right, we're trying to thread the eye of the needle. Here we wait and wait

and wait for our verdict, for our decision. And we went again right two to one. If this is in front of three judges, we'd one two to one, which is another moment of great joy. Two to one, I'll take it. Except please notice that as we studied this decision was two to one decision, there was suddenly another judge in America who would have ruled to keep Brendan

Dacy still in prison. Right, And the more we read that dissenting judge's opinion, we realized that it read like an open invitation for the State of Wisconsin to try this very rare legal maneuver rehearing on bank where you throw out the appeal and redo it in front of the full court. And that's exactly what they did. We argued that case and lost by a single vote, four to three. Steve and I are not not done fighting for Brendan, and the world isn't either, and the Wisconsin

Knights aren't either. Right, So today we have filed a petition with the Governor of Wisconsin asking that he grant Brendan clemency, that he released Brendan Dacy from prison. It's the only person in the world with the power to do that, Governor Tony Evers. We hear so much from people in state out of state. Right, people from all over all four corners of Wisconsin, Madison, Milwaukee, but up in Superior, up in Green Bay, out in Eau Claire, right,

lacros Us. I get these messages constantly from people who who just think it's time for Brendan to come home. You know, it's past time, and we know we're we're honored to be in a position where we can hopefully show the governor it's the right time to do this. Yes, and the good news is that, by all accounts, this governor is a reasonable man. He's had experience. Um, he's visited a juvenile detention facilities one of the first things he did. That, that's right, he did. And he comes

from the education system. You know, he was the head of the Wisconsin Board of Education before he assumed the governor's office. So this is somebody who understands. You know, Brendan was a tenth grader in the public school, special education system. Right, That's who he was. In many ways, it's still who he is, Brendan. Um. You know, one of the things I was personally so um struck by was when we spoke yesterday about your dreams for after you get out. Um, what you want to do in

the world. Do you mind sort of talking about that a little bit. I mean, like getting into making and playing video games. Well, yeah, and hopefully getting paid for it. Yeah. We oh. I think it was Laura that asked you if you had a superpower, what wouldn't That's right, That's always one of my favorite questions to ask Brendan. I would want to have the power to heal illnesses and diseases all over the world. And where do you think that comes from? Like, I mean, it's a great superpower.

I'd like to have it too. But of all the things, why do you think that one is the one that came to your mind? Well, I just like helping people, so I wanted to help other people in the world. I mean, look, there's a lot of people that want to help you too, and it's amazing. We talked about yesterday how many letters you get. Do you figure you've gotten letters from every state in the country by now, all fifty states? It's got to be close. Uh huh. You know, Brendan, why don't you tell him some of

the countries that people have sent you letters from? Do you remember some of the countries Singapore in glend Ireland, Iceland, South America, Canada, Hawaii, New Zealand too. Yeah, even Australia, right, Australia, it's amazing, and also some from Wisconsin, right, Yeah, that's great. So there's tens of millions of people now all over the world, as you know, who have watched Making a Murderer have learned about your story. Do you want to see the show when you get out? Are you interested?

I might eat. I don't know if I can, though, Yeah, you made it might be hard to watch, yeah, you know, more or less because I lived it, So why would I want to watch it again? Really understandable after everything you've been through and all the twists and turns and the freedom being sort of, you know, yanked away from you twice. Really Yeah, what was that like? Your bags were packed, right, You're ready to go home, and then they pulled the rug out from under you. I mean,

I would think that would make somebody crazy. Yeah. I was a little depressed, you know, called my mom at night, and you know, I was I was upset, you know, and so she was she you know what she thought I was going to be coming home, you know, and I was willing to give up all my stuff, you know, and just walk out the doors with nothing, right, So you were going to give it to some of the other guys in there or either that or or just tell all the prison that they can keep it right, Well,

you weren't going to need it anymore. Yeah, what helps you sort of get through this? Brendan? As this is was all happening to you, Where did you find your strength? Uh? Mostly having my family support me and have my back, especially your mom. Right, Yeah, it is visiting day, right, Yeah, I'll beginning a visit from my mom tonight. It means everything, you know. They have a family that loves and supports me no matter what, and they always have my back,

you know. Yeah, And it's really he is hardening to know that so many people care and still care. And what would you tell people that want to get involved that that have seen your story didn't really have any idea of what goes on in our justice system, but now they do. Is there anything particularly you could advise someone, Um, just keep fighting for me and uh, keep showing your love and support and then there's a lot of ways to do that and going to you know, Innocence Project

dot org is a good place to start. Laura. Are there other places people can go to learn more about this case and to follow your progress and the progress and getting Brendan home. Absolutely, Folks can go to c w c HY dot org. That's the Center on Wrongful Convictions of Youth. You can learn a lot more about Brendan's case, Reada's legal papers, and follow developments as they happen.

And do you have social media yourself that we can tag you in here because we want to have people allow you and your progress not only on Brendan's case, but also on all the other amazing work that you're doing. I do, I do. I'm on Instagram and Twitter both at Laura and I writer. That's easy. That's at Laura and I writer. That's right. And now, as regular listeners of the show, no, it's time for the best part of the show, closing arguments, where I get to just

kick back in my chair turn my microphone off. First of all, thank you again for taking the time to share your thoughts and your perspective and your spirit with me in with our audience, And of course thank you Laura for arranging this and for being such a passionate, dedicated, obsessive justice fighter. Um and for being on the show. So Laura, first, thank you for being here. Thanks for giving this opportunity to let the world here who Brendan

Nasty is. You know, there have been so many people out there who watched Making a Murderer and we're moved disturbed by Brendan's story and who've reached out to us to ask what they can do to help Brendan. There's something really easy you can do. Maybe this upcoming weekend, you find yourself the nextra ten minutes of time, think about sending him a letter. Right. These letters don't have to be long, they don't have to be powerful, but just tell him, you know, keep your head high. I

believe in you. Right, we're fighting for you. It'll happen for you. These letters are such a small gesture on the part of every one of us, but they sustain him. Right. They give him hope every day, and that gives us the hope we need to keep on fighting. So find his address on the Wisconsin Department of Corrections website. He's in the Oshkosh Correctional Institution. Reach out to him. Let him know he's got friends all over the world who believe in him. If you want to get involved. In

other ways you can do that. You can educate yourself. There are a lot of other books, films, TV shows about wrongful conviction. Right, Brendan is not the only one. Get out there. Watch when they see us, Right, Watch the Paradise Last series about the West Memphis three or West of Memphis. Watch Murder on a Sunday morning, Right,

watch the confession tapes. You can see incredible shows, read incredible books about this happening over and over, some of which we've mentioned today, and you can get out there. Of course, you can support organizations like the Center on Wrongful Convictions or the Innocence Project or a lot of other incredible organizations that do this work. But most importantly, right, don't stop saying Brendan Dacy's name. Get out there on social media, remember him, Keep insisting that the people with

power in this system do justice for Brendan. Write letters to the governor of Wisconsin. Tell him what you see when you see Brendon on TV. Tell him what you hear when you hear Brendon on a podcast like this, especially if you live in Wisconsin. Tell him you want Brendan home. That's the difference that you can make It's a huge difference. We rely on people like you to light the way, to show the path for doing the right thing here. So thank you to everybody who's written

to Brendon. Keep doing it, keep showing your support. Let's get him home together and Brendan, Um, thank you again for you know, letting me come see you and for spending time on the air with us today. Um, and now I get to leave it open for you to say whatever you want as we close the show. UM, I don't know what to say. UM. I love Pokemon and my favorite Pokemon is Mew. But there's a new one coming out called l Creamy I really like. And uh hopefully I get to see some of the more

new ones coming out pretty soon. Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam. Please support your local innocence projects and go to the link in our bio to see how you can help. I'd like to thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff Clyburne and Kevin Warns. The music on the show, as always, is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook. At

Wrongful Conviction podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one