#219 Jason Flom with Patrick Pursley

actual innocence occurring August. The state has been desperately trying to throw Patrick's innocence into question, to no avail, and for no other reason than to not admit that they were wrong and thereby grant Patrick the right to pursue the compensation that he's so rightly deserves. At ten pm on a snowy April two, twenty two year old Andrew Asher and Becky George sat in a parked car in front of her brother's apartment on Silent Road in Rockford, Illinois.

A black man approached the car in the blue scheme, ask in a hoodie, and he opened the driver's side door, announcing a stick up. While Becky fished around in her purse and tried to offer the gunman the sixty dollars she had, he shot Andrew Asher twice. Becky ran to her brother's apartment to call the police, and the two bullets and their casings were retrieved from the crime scene

and during the autopsy. Through the use of incentivized eyewitness testimony, the coercion of a false confession, and grand jury testimony from Patrick Parsley's girlfriend, Samantha Crabtree, testimony she later recanted

a trial, and conflicting and misleading ballistics expert testimony. Patrick was convicted of first degree murder and sentenced to life without parole, with an epic appeals process that included Patrick getting a law change from prison in order to get new ballistics testing done that would ultimately set him free. Patrick Parsley suffered over twenty five years for a crime

he simply didn't commit. In March two thousand seventeen, Patrick's conviction was finally vacated and he was released on bond. He was formally acquitted at his retrial on January six, two thousand nineteen. This It's Wrongful Conviction with Jason Blant Welcome Back to Wrongful Conviction. This episode was recorded at Complex Con Chicago two thousand nineteen, a culture, fashion, art and music hybrid event described as a streetwear fans kind

of World's Fair. Featuring limited edition brand collaborations, performances, and even the occasional live podcast recording like this one. We only had thirty minutes though, to tell Patrick's story, so I'll be fleshing out some of the details along the way. Patrick Pursley, this is gonna be extraordinary because, frankly because of you. Because Patrick is my new friend. I've just got to know him his unbelievable spirit and intellect. But Patrick,

I want to say that I'm happy you're here. I'm sorry you're here because you didn't should never even have to be having this conversation. But I'm happy you're here. And You're case has so many of the hallmarks, so many of the common factors that we see in wrongful convictions over and over again. You had incentivized lying witnesses, coerced threatened witnesses. You had bad ballistics, terrible ballistics, right. You had people in positions of authority who broke rules,

broke laws in order to railroad you. Tunnel vision is another factor, right, And by tunnel vision, what I mean by that is once a suspect is identified, in many cases, we see that the police and prosecutors start to build a narrative, either consciously or subconsciously, and they managed to ignore or they subconsciously ignore evidence that points away as they see it. In your case, yes, alternative suspects, crime

scene evidence, clothing, everything, everything was contradicted. So Patrick Pursley was wrongfully convicted of a brutal crime, a robbery of two people in the car where the robber shot the guy sitting in the car twice and ran and then things went downhill from there very quickly. And Patrick, this this was Rockford, Illinois. But you didn't know the people. You didn't know anything about the crime. I didn't even know what happened. You were home with your girlfriend when

this happened. Yes, I was doing a lated birthday party for my son and he came from Wisconsin. His birthday was on the twenty nine, and we were celebrating on the night of the crime, which was four to and had a chemistry set for him and we were just tinkering around and have no idea of these events happening just a few miles away. I mean, while there's another aspect of this that's important to recognize, which is crime stoppers,

right and theory. Crimestoppers a great thing, right, people call up, okay, talk about a crime. They're gonna make us all safer. They get a reward. But in your case, except except when they do it like when the Patrick's case where someone called up who knew nothing about the crime and just gave up his name in order to get two thousands sif the price of life right, about a hundred dollars a year for the time you were in the

price of life. So all of this must have come as a tremendous shock to you when it happened in stages right when you first first you became aware that you were a suspect. Can you get into that aspect of this whole thing. I was taking my daughter and my son to a birthday party, and um, the police tried to apprehend me, and unfortunately I was ghetto bred, so I fled, and um that's how it started. That

was June, about ten weeks after the crime. Two days earlier, on June eight, Marvin Windham, a man Patrick knew from a few small time we deals around Rockford, was the first one to point the finger at him in a call he made two crime stoppers. It was later revealed the trial that not only did Marvin have eyes for Samantha Crabtree, Patrick's girlfriend, but he also received leniency on a number of charges that he faced in exchange for his testimony. Not to mention the two thousand, six fifty

dollar reward. With Wyndham's hot tip, the police now we're able to get a search warrant for Patrick and Samantha's apartment, where they recovered a tourist nine millimeter that Samantha kept for protection. Notably, she always stored it out of reach of her small children. While Patrick fled on foot and the cops rated the apartment, they brought Samantha in for some aggressive interrogation. And I'm putting that mildly. They interrogor

gated my girlfriend for like twelve hours. She was pregnant, you know, just basically force fed a narrative to her while disregarding glaring contradictions. And so your girlfriend was a pregnant mother of two or three, never been in trouble, three kids, three kids, pregnant mother. So she said, trogate for twelve hours, and the police tell her that if she doesn't tell them exactly what they want to hear, she won't see her children till she's forty so here's

how this unraveled. So they take her from directly from the interrogation room to a grand jury where they make her repeat the story right now, she's under oath, right, get her own record, get under you know, as substantiates of evidence come in later. So she tells them what they want to hear, and a girlfriend, to her everlasting credit, stood strong to get back. You can talk about that. Yes, So as soon as she was out of custody, she filed an affidavit with my attorneys and said she was coursed,

basically took back her statement. When eleanois there is no take backs right now. It's called perjury. It's called perjury. It's called come in at trial substantial evidence. Didn't you say this under oath? And it comes in as evidence of guilt. Your girlfriend ended up spending two years in prison because she didn't go along with the narrative and

took it back. The narrative of her terrorized, spoon fed and patently false confession and her grand jury testimony was that she and Patrick were having financial trouble and on the night of the murder, they were driving around in search of a house to rob when Patrick told her to stop on silent road, hopped out the car, put on a blue ski mask, told her to keep the engine running, and ran off toward the apartment buildings. Then a few minutes later, she heard two gunshots and Patrick

returned to the car carrying a Taurus nine millimeter. Hours before being threatened with a life separated from her children and regurgitating this narrative for her false confession, Samantha's apartment was being searched by the police where photos were actually staged. There were stage photos of her Taurus nine millimeter being stored in plain sight for ease of use. The whole gun situation as far as like pictures of where the gun was. It's like I had children in my house.

I'm not going to have a gun and playing view where tin year old could get it. It just wasn't just a whole narrative of I was put together was so far circle. It was. It's just crazy, but early on you and you had a lawyer who actually made one move. One move. Yeah, so every defendant, I think in the course of Americas's I didn't do it. I had a young lawyer who was beginning his career and I'm his first death penalty case. And then I had the older lawyer who kin just like, I'm not a here.

So the young lawyer and his pushback, right, you know you didn't do it. Well, we'll test the gun. Really, you can do that, Yes, please test the gun. Tested gun. That's how it all started, That's what got me here. Ballistic testing is very important to this story. Ballistics is the study of the dynamics of projectiles or of the

internal action of firearms. It can tell us what type of firearm was used, where it was fired, from how many shots were fired, and most importantly for this case, it can be used to identify a firearm by the

markings left on bullets and bullet casings after firing. So, after both the state's crime lab and the defense is independent lab test fire Crab Trees nine millimeter and compare the bullets and casings from both the test firing and the murder, the prosecution's expert testify that the gun used in the murder was Crab Trees Tourist nine millimeter and this is a direct quote to the exclusion of all others.

Powerful testimony, false but powerful. While the defense is expert testified that the murder weapon was likely a tourist nine millimeter, but not crab Trees. However, the expert hired by the defense could not conclusively exclude the gun. So think about this. You now have the state testifying with absolute certainty and

the defense inconclusive in their exclusion of Patrick. This, along with Marvin Wyndham's incentivized testimony and Samantha crab trees initial false confession, brings us to where we know this part of the story tragically went. However, the ballistics testing becomes crucial again many years down the road. When the jury went out. You've now seen a bunch of dirty tricks. You've been around the system. You grew up, as you said, in the streets, right, so you know what can happen.

You're a young black man at this point in the clutches of a system that is designed to chew you up and spit you out. I think Loupeg called it planned convalescence. I think called it that. Well, that being said, when the jury went out, did you have hope? Oh? Yeah, I knew I didn't do it. I know it was going home. And so when they returned a guilty verdict, I just, um, I really don't even remember how I got back to my cell because I guess the blood

drained off my body or something. I just went body numb, and uh, you know, I couldn't believe it. I just I couldn't believe it. It floored me. I don't think anybody here can possibly begin to understand that somebody else here has been through what you've been through and now you're facing the death penalty. Yes, so you come back for sentencing, and the judge says, because of the inconsistencies of the evidence, I'm not gonna give you the death penalty. However,

I will give you natural life. I'll find you be a ministers. And this is at a time where people were actually picketing for me to get a new trial. Was very strange and very strange correlation what was going on. And that's just the same was we're not gonna kill you quickly, but we are going to kill you slowly. Right. I'm having mercy on you because I see the bs and evidence, but you're still going buddy. There was a cry in the courtroom when he announced that my daughters

were there. It was something else. You were said to some of the worst, well, one of the worst prisons yes, stay built, and uh, I wouldn't got job in the law Librreya. I tried to play past the game banging and the dice games and try to educate myself. I got a grant to correspondence classes, and law isn't as bad as everyone thinks it is. I'm a natural life survivor, Bryan. So right now in the wintertime, although locks are cut

off the windows, so the natives don't make knives. However, what that does that allows your cell to have enough ice on you can make a snow cone right off the bars and freezing temperatures, mice, roaches, so many roaches. You put a potato chip back in the corner of your segregation cell and the roaches going there and they can't get out, and so you hear kind of like the scraping, And that was the roach motel and the f house panopticon. They actually, uh, it's a landmark. It's

a landmark. And of the two point two million people in prison, there are a lot of them who don't have air conditioning. And I know a guy who died recently in Texas prison. He told his brother that his brother said, why don't you have any sodas he left soda. Like, you can't keep solda in your cell? He said, I can't because they explode because it's too hot. Like what the funky even is that? Well, ice is the commodity. They might get one cup of ice in the morning,

one cup of ice at night. Ice is a commodity. So you will deal with the elements. And right around April fifteenth, they will turn off the heat every year like clockwork, despite the elements. Right in Chicago. You you've got some elements here, God knows. And I'm always fascinated and amazed by people like yourself who managed to, you know, go through this ordeal as an innocent person. And the extra psychological damage that that must do to a person

who's undergoing the extreme physical hardships. Uh, and the loneliness and all the rest of it. The violence in the prison, we talked about it, the terrible food, etcetera. Said, the cold heat. And then you are there, you know, innocent forever innocent. I was done, All my appeals were done. I was done in court. That being said, you found this something, this inner strength, perseverance whatever you however you

describe it. And you not only didn't you give up, but you had, and first of all, you had every reason to give up. Motion after motion after motion, denied, denied, denied, Yes, I need one. Yes, that's it. And how you to that is a really incredible part of the story. So you denied, denied, denied. Now, as I understand that the law in Illinois at the time allowed for postconviction testing of fingerprints in DNA, but not ballistic exactly. So in

two thousand and I asked for the testing. I've seen an article in a tribune about Illinois State Police now starts using the IBIS system Intrigator Ballistic Identification system, which uses algorithms to connect ballistics to crime scenes. So I was like, that can free me. I knew it could free me. It was. It was just that simple. And unfortunately, because the law didn't allow for it in two thousand, two thousand one, y As for the courts was like, no,

the law would have to be amended. The law would have been changed in order to grant me the gun testing, which would potentially desonerate me. And that was two thousand one, right, So you were stuck on the technicality, right, because you knew that you had this evidence, because your lawyer had tested. We go back to that, right, your lawyer had had the sense to go and independent testing, independent lab, independent lab.

This lab had only testified for defendants four times. So now a lot of people would say, Okay, here you are in the segregation unit of one of the worst prisons in America. Not a great education. You have a law degree, you don't have a science degree. It would seem to be hopeless. But somehow or other you managed to actually get the law changed from inside yourself. So uh so, long, long story short. I'm it's two thousand six,

I'm in child hall. There's an award and I would say a southern gentleman maybe in past life he had slave ships. He sees my prayer beads and he says, are you allowed to have him? Sir, and me, being the sarcastic bastard, I am. I buck up and say yes sir. So he looks at me, he says, are you sure you're allowed to have him? I don't like your attitude. He sees the energy coming off me. I say yes, sir, and so he gets a little closer in my personal space and the tar man's out with

the gun. It's about two inmates, and uh, he says, I don't like your attitude. I said, we don't like your attitude either, sir. You brought much misery and suffering to the land. As a result, I went straight to segregation six months in some of the worst conditions in the United States. But while there I had epiphany and I wrote an article that became a state law. And what is that law? And yeah, exactly here we go.

So the law is seven five I will see as five one sixteen dash three as a minute October twenty seven, two thousand seven, signed by Governor Bligoyevich. I should probably send him some money for commissary, because he actually he helped me. No, really, he helped me. I just it slips my mind sometimes, but he helped me. He really did.

He signed my ideal to law. If you remember, back in two thousand nine, Illinois Governor Rod Blagoyevich was indicted on corruption charges that included the alleged solicitation of personal benefit and exchange for Barack Obama's recently vacated US Senate seat. Was I remember that well? It was a bizarre episode. Anyway. He was later found guilty of seventeen different charges including wire fraud, attempted extortion, and conspiracy to solicit bribes and

sentenced to fourteen years behind bars. But before he left office, he did sign Patrick's amendment into law. Now back to the law. Bill Ryan worked for the Department of Children and Family Services as an advocate for long term offenders. He had a newsletter that was circulated throughout prisons as well as the families of inmates, to law professors and colleges,

and even legislators and politicians. Mr Ryan published the article that Patrick wrote about amending the law to include post conviction ballistics testing through the Integrated Ballistics Identification System also known as IBIS. In turn, Illinois State Representative Arthur Turner Senior sponsored the legislator. You can imagine the letters that come from prison, and so Bill Ryan are a long term advocate, explained to me, and Michelle says Patrick, you

just don't get it. I had a table full of letters. I reached down to grab one letter, open it up. You asked me to give it to the senators, and I did so. It's completely by the grace of the creator, completely fortuitous, anomalous, whatever you think, it was all just luck, alright, No, I mean the stars lined up words, genetics, it's all above, it's it's a it's a combination of everything. And so ultimately the log gets changed. They opened the jail doors,

they let you out right. No, it's not exactly. So the log is changed. Illinois becomes the first state in the country to have this law in order to grant me the gun testing. So the log is changed. And general block, which we're in the shadow of my attorneys over there on Clark Street, who spent like four point five million dollars over ten years to get me a designer. Y. Well, first of all, let's not leave out there are a lot of heroes in your story, right, none bigger than you,

by the way. But and two of them are in the room, and I want to recognize Steve Drizzen and Laura and I Rider from the Northwestern Center on Wrong Convictions, who have been steadfast supporters. They still are the biggest fans. I mean to be embarrassed if you heard somethings they But anyway, so Rochford fought every step of the way. They there was no like welcoming Reese for the conquering hero. It was none of that. It was more like my cousin Vinny. We don't take to cunny your pan around here.

So it was a long fight. It was a very long fight. About five rounds of gun testing show the gun didn't match, and of course no one knits mistakes in this world, so we had to fight new trial, new trial. But meanwhile, now you're hitting your stride, I'm hit my strive. We were winning motion after motion. It was just amazing. It was a momentum if you could imagine, um, ten fifteen years of representing myself or you know, just trying to navigate the system, and uh, you you're just

starting to look like a lawyer. Did anybody tell you that I do hear that I take my cues from Steve Drisen. I confess. So, as you know, the wheels

of justice turned painfully slowly. Even after getting the law changed in order to request new ballistics testing through the IBIS system in two thousand seven, it took a tremendous amount of fighting in order for Patrick's lawyers to finally be able to present the new evidence from two different ballistics experts, excluding as the murder weapon the Tourist nine millimeter. That same Tourist nine millimeter that was seized at Patrick's apartment.

This all happened finally in December of two thousand sixteen, and then at last his conviction was vacated and a new trial was granted March of two thousand seventeen, and Patrick Perseley was released on bond that very April, and there he began to fight the new trial from the outside.

In November two thousand eighteen, Patrick's lawyers filed a motion for dismissal in light of a new bit of information that was not disclosed by the prosecution after eighteen months, a story from Lois Asher, the victim's mother, that alluded to conscious wrongdoing by police in regards to the gun. Even though a December two thou eighteen hearing she admitted that the story came to her second hand through her now deceased husband. It's still worth hearing, but did not

result in a dismissal. There's another aspect in this case that needs to be mentioned, which is the story of the gun. So basically, the state's attorneys, once it came to realize that the gun didn't match even the mother of the victim, had came forward and was like look back in two thousands. The detectives told me and my husband that back in that they couldn't find a gun that killed their sons, so they just put Patrick's gun

into evidence. And when she asked her no, husband asked, are you sure you have the right person, and they responded, well, we got one anyway. You know, there's a lot of victims in this case. The parents of the victim, right, your girlfrien ended up spending two years in prison. My children. I can't explain watching what they went through, you know, all through my children, you know, because every stept away they were my guiding light, they were my guiding line.

So finally the retrial is on. In January two despite the evidence pointing to the contrary, the state's ballistics expert continued to connect the tourist nine millimeter SEUs the Patrick's department with the murder weapon. Meanwhile, the defense hired two of the leading forensic firearm and two mark experts in the country, Chris Coleman and John Ordock, who worked independently of one another. That's important and arrived at the same conclusion.

The markings made on test bullets in two thousand eleven by the tourist nine millimeters seized from Patrick's apartment all matched and showed distinct similarities. However, that test bullets did not match the bullets and casings recovered from the crime scene. Therefore the inescapable and for the authorities in this case, the inconvenient truth was that the tourists nine millimeter did

not could not have fired the bullets that killed Andrew Asher. Finally, that your day comes, your day in court, right, how good was that day of vindication? Did you float out of the courtroom like, well, it's really strange because, um, as I'm caught up in these events, I realized all that this is bigger than myself. But I had to sit for a second trial, and even though I knew a new I was gonna be found innocence, I really believed that that everything came out the judge that was

very meticulous. He was very fair, right, but it was still very much like dangling your feet over hell fire because he could stay guilty and you go back. So that's in the back of my head. So when I'm actually exonerated, my lead the court room might still have that goofy look on my face, like right, So I still was numb, you know, it's like end to end because you really can't believe the gravity of the circumstances

that you're caught up in. The questions I get asked most frequently, what happens to the people that did this to you? And we know you answered to that is nothing almost always karma. Karma is always there, karmas thing, And too, do you get compensation? That question gets asked by everybody, and people just assume. So when he walks out, tell me he got paid, right, the state makes it

up to him. No, No, I mean, Illinois has the statue, but you have to basically go through another fight called a certificate of innocence, and then after that it's another fight for the federal level for federal civil rights violations, which would be a wrongful conviction suit. So it's a process no one you know. Like I said, there's no reaths for the conquering hero. It doesn't work like that. They fight fight, fight, fight, fight, because you're messing with

people's careers. It doesn't happen like that. But it's so crazy because it's a taxpayer money. It's not like they're paying it themselves. And in Illinois there's a there's a cap on how much you can get as well, unless you can prove a civil rights violation, right right, But even then the cap is I think kind of surprise

a lot of people how low it is. And Illinois is not the worst state by far, but what's under two hundred under two hundred thousand dollars for twenty five years and seven, and that's after you fight, fight, fight, fight fight. The good news is we're moving. The project has been really moving the needle on getting laws passed state after state compensation laws were now at the thirty five states that have in their fifteen states that have

no laws of whatsoever. There's some states that haven't matched. I think misconstint right next door has a cap of twenty dollars. So now you're out right making speeches, and anyone who has heard Patrick story today, if you know another organization, corporate or otherwise that's interested in having him come and speak, that's how you're supporting yourself. I run my mouth for a living, That's what I do. You're run your mouth for them. I can't. Yeah, well you

can do that. So that's number one. And then the other thing is, you know, we're just out here trying to educate everyone. I mean, I'll ask everybody that's here to ask everyone you know to serve on a jury. Remember the things that you're hearing now when you're in that jury box. You know, the research has not shown the jurors are predisposed to think that a person in defendens box is guilty just because they're there eight percent.

So remember Patrick, Remember what happened to him, And how what you're watching unfold in front of you as you're holding somebody's life in your hands, may not be what you're being told that it is. So they're supposed to be a reasonable doubt, reasonable doubt right, and they's supposed to be a presumption of innocence. None of that worked. It's a credibility deficit. There's a credibility deficit for a definitive walking indoor period. If you're poor, there's a credibility deficit.

And if you're behind bars and you're finding the case, you're not going nowhere unless you have an attorney. So pro say gets no play, pro gets no play. I want to ask you this question as we wind down, and I have one more question after this. Are you better? No? No? That's that that was a good question. No, it's no. I'm hurt. I'm very hurt. You know, I have reservoirs

of hurt. So seeing what this is done to my children, you know, it's like stepping outside of a time machine and not really connecting with nothing out here because I'm the analog man from you know. So it's really a very strange, you know, just surreal existence. But we make the best of it. We make the best of it. Um. You know, I am kid culture dot org. So I reduced gunning, game violence, promote higher education one of organization I founded. While that I am kid culture dot org.

And of course you're on you on all the social media now too. You you you in the ground running. I mean you only even else is January on social media. Before I got out, that was that was, that was my thing. I was a writer, and Michelle helped propagate the stories. And we had professors coming in our Stateville for years who was taking our material. They were you know, volunteers, and they were taking our materials to game pece circles,

high schools, colleges. Kid Culture actually was born in Stateville, where I had a natural life sentence. Also, I have a book on Amazon. Also the Adventures a Kid Culture in the World Explorers. We got t shirts on I Am kid Culture dot org. Please support support support because we are trying to connect to stop the violence movement across the country. Show culture to culture And one more thing, I gotta ask you more question before I get to

the last part. So you did talk very beautifully earlier about the programs that you've sponsored in prison and about the importance of education. So basically everyone knows how the grants got took on our prisons, what we led a fight to reverse that we had did charities in prison, police left. We said we're gonna do hats for the homeless. So every time we tried to do something positive, people

kind of like, right, but we still did it. So there was very much that persistence, and also tried to reach out to the community at large to show, you know, not just to stare the kids away from crime and educate college kids that were volunteering to come into Stateville. We also kind of educate the public at large. There's a lot of mismanagement and gross waste of money in

the prison system. Well said again. And I now come to my favorite part of the show, which is when I get to thank you Patrick Pursley for coming and and sharing your story, and uh, you know, just for for being here and being such a great example for everybody of the power of the human spirit. And thank the audience here for being here and listening of course, Laura and Steve again for everything you're doing, and all the great activists in the room. And this part of

the show I call it closing argument. This is where I actually get to turn my mic off. Thank you once again. Thank to everybody at home or on your device where you're listening to Wrongful Conviction. Uh, please check out the other episodes. One story is crazier than the other and you can learn something from each one of them. So now I'm signing off and leaving your microphone on

and I'm just gonna kick back and listen those and arguments. Remember, people, everything isn't always is It seems everyone has intrusive value. Every one of us has value. That has to be our mission to be able to teach compassion and love. Right, So, facing the worst possible conditions, you can still move mountains and that is very much a testament to the spirit. And I have to thank Northwestern, I have to thank you. I have to thank Jenner Block Prison, Neighborhood Arts Project, Michelle,

everyone that's been there every step of the way. Because I'm a mess. I will tell you I'm a mess. Don't let anyone tell you know otherwise that doing hard time and in humane conditions. That would be against the law for you to leave your dog in So you think like that, So I always keep a part of me in the cell house. Right So right now, let's see they're back from child You know that you have birds flying over their heads, you have spiders, you have mice.

You have people who are loved you know, loved ones and prisoners who are basically kind of get the scarlet letter for loving a prisoner. You see what I'm saying. So basically, if you have loved ones behind bars right them, how alert it does a wrongful conviction Consultants, We're trying to do something. We got a lot of prisoners talk to us. Howlers. I am kid culture dot Org five and one C three reducing gun and game violence. Um,

we did a mixtape. Imagine that fifty three year old man come out prison, do a mix tape and no, I'm not rapping. It just tells the story of the Wrongful Conviction as well as the violence in Rockford, but also the hope and always work for love, Always work for love. It is the highest vibration of human spirit and that's my clothes and arguments. Thank you so much for having me, Thank you for listening to Wrong for

Conviction with Jason Flam. Please support your local innocence projects and go to the link in our bio to see how you can help. I'd like to thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff Clyburne and Kevin Warns. The music on the show, as always, it is by E time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful

Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one