#215 Jason Flom with Greg Glod on John Jones

to sleep. Then, when John woke again at nine forty am, turned on cartoons for his son and went to attend to the twins. Jada was unresponsive in a panic. He called family and nine one one. The dispatcher coached him through CPR until first responders arrived and took over. He did everything a concerned father would do, But when testing was done at the hospital, doctors found what they mistakenly

thought was conclusive evidence of lethal child abuse. However, over the next decade, the science that they used to support John's conviction has crumbled under the weight of reality. Had a jury heard all the other now logical explanations for the symptoms present in little Jada's body, John Jones never would have served a day of his fifteenth to life prison sentence. This is Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flom. Welcome

back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flom. That's me, of course, your host, and today we're here to tell you the heartbreaking story of John Jones, who was just seventeen years old when his six month old daughter, Jada Ruise died, and shortly thereafter. The tragedy was compounded by the hubris of some in the medical establishment and legal system armed with the junk science of shaking baby syndrome. And today

I'm joined by a phenomenal co host. Avid listeners will remember Greg Gloud from the Junk Science episode on roadside drug Testing. He is the criminal justice fellow at Americans for Prosperity. Greg, Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. I appreciated Jason, thank you so much for allowing me to co host. You know, you and I have gotten close over the

last couple of months. I've been working on criminal justice reform since about two thousand and fifteen now, and to be able to do this today and co host, is you know, really an honor? So no, I really thank you again. Well, I'm the one who really should feel honored and not just because you've joined us, but also because with us is one of the world's leading experts and one of the most troubling aspects of our criminal

legal system, Shaking baby syndrome. Now, she was also featured on Wrongful Conviction Junk Science when we covered this subject. The executive director of the Center for Integrity and Forensic Sciences, Kate Judson, Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. Hi, thank you so much, Jason, and Hi Greg. And last but not least, we have with us Staph attorney at the Ohio Innocence Project, the man who's representing John Jones, Donald Castor Donald. Welcome

to Ronald Conviction. Thanks for being here. Hi Jason, thank you for having me on. And we'll be joined very soon by John Jones. Was going to be calling in from Lebanon Correctional Facility in Ohio. But first let's get a little background on what John was up against when Jada became unresponsive. Kate, can you get aig brief history on shaken baby syndrome. You know where it came from, this hypothesis, and then how did it start to enter its way into the criminal justice system as as a

viable scientific theory. To convict caretakers of murder. Sure Greg Shaken baby syndrome was originally proposed as a hypothesis to explain a phenomenon that a pediatric neurosurgeon in Great Britain was seeing in his patients. He would sometimes have infants who died or were seriously ill without a clear cause and without external trauma, and yet the internal features looked a lot like kids who had suffered some kind of

traumatic injury. So those findings were subdural hematoma, which is bleeding between the coverings of the brain, retinal hemorrhage, which is bleeding at the back of the eye, and en cephalopathy and Surrey brilladema, which sort of acts together as one leg of what sometimes people call the triad. Surrey brilladema his brain swelling, and en cephalopathy is brain dysfunction. And so Dr goth Kelch, this Pietric neurosurgeon, was seeing these findings and kids and they looked injured on the

inside but not on the outside. And he thought that one reason for that might be a common disciplinary technique in his home of Northern England in the seventies, which was shaking. And so what Dr goth Kelch said is that these medical findings could be due to shaking. And Dr goth Kelch wasn't claiming to have the answers, but that rather that he was hypothesizing about what might be

causing these findings. So that started to evolve. A radiologist in New York, John Caffey, built on that and he published articles saying the same thing, right, that parents should

be until with infants. But neither of these doctors suggested that the medical findings that they associated with shaking were exclusively diagnostic to shaking, nor did they say that there was a reliable way to place blame on a caregiver when a child had these medical findings, right, And so where was the switch then, from this just being you know, a hypothesis or an unexplained phenomena to a verifiable medical diagnosis that actually began convicting visuals of murder of a child.

And there's a little bit of a gap in understanding between the mid to late nineteen seventies and then when we start to see these cases appear in published appellate decisions in the late eighties, and we started to see prosecutors and pediatricians in particular also pathologists saying that when children had this collection of findings, which is sometimes called a triad of findings or a constellation of medical findings,

that shaking could be diagnosed. And that's when it comes into the criminal legal system and we start to see the trajectory that we're on today where parents are wrongfully accused based on only the existence of a particular set of medical findings. And I mean to be totally clear, there's no debate about whether abusive shaking, violent shaking of an infant is dangerous. It is and no one should

do it. The debate is really whether shaking reliably explains the findings that are often attributed to it, whether shaking can be diagnosed as the cause of those findings. And doing my research for this, there is a large concentration of these shaking baby syndrome cases in the state of Ohio, and so I just wanted to see if you had any explanation behind why Ohio kind of had a higher rate of shaking baby syndrome cases than than many other

jurisdictions across the nation. Researchers aren't a d PC sure why some places have higher concentrations of diagnoses of SPS.

Than others. It's probably a combination of factors, but some of those factors include prosecutors who are particularly aggressive in going after these are kinds of accusations, the media attention in certain cases receive in certain media markets, and the child abuse pediatricians or forensic pathologists who work on these cases, if they have a particular belief for bent, then there are more likely to be more accusations of shaking within

you know that person's jurisdiction or area of control in Ohio is one of those places. And now we'll go to Lebanon Correctional Facility to speak with a young man who was doing his best as a young teenager to raise three kids while finishing high school in the third largest shaken baby syndrome epicenter in the country, Acron Ohio. Hello, this is a prepaid debit call from an inmate. It's

a Lebanon Correctional facility to accept this call. Press zero to prevent This call is from a correction facility and is subject to monitoring and recording. Thank you for using GTL. I'm John. Yeah, this job John. Like I always say, I'm glad you're here with us, but I'm sorry because of the reason you're here, or more to the point, because of where you are. Thanks for having me. So I wanted you to take us back, if you will, to your life before this absolute horror happened. You were

growing up in Akron. I grew up with four sisters who struggled. I grew up port and he moved around a lot. My mom had some struggles, struggle addition alcohol addition on. My father as well had the same struggles. Regardless of what she was going through her own personal problems. My mom always was around. She was always with us, but my grandmother end up getting customer on me when I was really young. She just put us on the path to try to be as successful as we could.

Growing up, I did a real good of school. Always was like an honor roll school. Once I became a teenager, and that's when I came into contact with my child's mother. I met her December sixte my fourteenth birthday, and my son was conceived nine days later on Christmas Eve. Christmas Mike. So now on fourteen, I'm expecting a child on the way. I knew that I had a responsibility now, so school no longer was a priority. My bid what I needed

to do to provide for him. As time to progress, me and her eventually began to establish a relationship get closer. A couple of years later, that's where my twins were and see Jada and jash Man. We ended up getting apartment together on our own. My grandmother was still technically my legal guardian, so I lived with them, but I spent most linths with my child's mother just to be around my children growing up. My father was always in my life, but like I said, he was a better

one with addiction. But even though I loved him unconditioning, he just wasn't the best that he could have been. So that made me want to make sure I was the best I could have been. Regardless of how old I was, regardless of school, whatever I was going through, I was gonna be president every single day in their life, no matter what, regardless of the status of me and their mother's relationship, how healthy or how unhealthy it was, I was gonna make sure I was there my keys

no matter what. And that's admirable. And so you, your children's mother, Deja, your son ty Sean, and the twins Jada and Jasmine all moved into an apartment together. Deja was eighteen, you're seventeen, and you were both finishing high school through an alternative school for young parents, and somehow you're making it work, which which brings us to March nine. The night before that morning it was actually her mother's birthday. Everybody spent some time together. It was it was a

cool little vibe though. Everybody was on the same page. And we went to sleep like any other day. We slept down in the living room. I slept on the couch with my daughter Jack and she slept down on the floor with my daughter saying, and my son was down there with us as well. But throughout the night she was waking me up complaining about position in or meeting or you know, my daughter might have been hunger or whatever. She was waking me up to out the night,

But it was it was just a typical day. And then that morning you had a test that she had to go take right and from what I understand, you both fed the twins at five am and then went back to sleep. Then Dasiah woke up at seven am to get ready for school and left around eight. So I get up walkers to the door, you know, wishing to look on her task, giver a kiss. She go out. At this point, my son still sleep, my daughters and around the couch day land down. Its early in the morning,

so I'm still tired. I go up to my daughter's I popped the bottles. I learned later on now that this wasn't a smart thing to do, just because of the safety conscience with a with a novemarm, But at the time I really wasn't aware of it, and it was more like a convenient thing away of me going back to sleep, but also feeding them if they were hunting. So I placed the bottles up on the blanket, prop them up, so I put them right there, just so when they do wake up the bottle of be right there,

they'll be able to feed. I can be able to sleep about another hour or two whatever. Then br everybody'd be cool. We did this every day munch of a time, so it was it was just another I said, it

was another day. But it's at this point between eight and nine forty am that, according to the state's theory and what passed for expert testimony, that you allegedly abused your daughter Jada in such a way that it caused all of these supposed injuries or symptoms that were later observed at the hospital, the same ones that Kate had mentioned earlier that make up the triad of shaking baby syndrome.

But as we now know, there are a myriad of medical conditions that can and do cause these symptoms in addition to an accidental or intentional traumatic event, and even in those events, it's important to note that a child may be lucid up to seventy two hours or even more before the symptoms or injuries become apparent, And in this case, they became apparent to you when you checked on Jada and Jasmine around nine am on that faithful, awful day. And you know, as a father myself, it's

every as for a nightmare. So at forty am you woke up, put on cartoons for Tyshon and go to check on your daughters, only to find that Jada was unresponsive. That was the scariest moment in my life. That was the worst day of my life. I didn't know what to do in that moment. She wasn't breathing, she wasn't moved, when she wasn't responsive at all, I instantly get on

the phone. My first reaction was to call our family, because my daughters were born with actually reflex when they when they feed, they would regret to take the food. It would come out of their modes. Sometimes will come with their mother. It didn't happen every time, but it happen frequently, So at first I was wondering if this was the case. So I actually called my mom and

I tell him what's going on. But I'm panicked, so I didn't want to stay on the phone with them too long because I'm realizing she's not breathing or nothing. But I called her family as well to let them know. I get off the phone, I call nine one one, tell them the whole situation is. I'm listening to the nine one one operated. She explaining to me how to

do the test confessions in the mouth to mouth. I tried did everything I could, and thatthing was working like So at this point, I'm becoming more here, more upset. I'm crying like and I'm just waiting to seem like a second, they finally arrived. They grab where they take her out, and I began to speak to detectives or whatever. I'm telling them everything pretty much that I'm telling you. Use my recollection of that night in the morning, let

them really stood outside me. From that point, family members start arrive and everybody's gonna sire. We all head down to the hospital, and then a couple of hours later, that's when we hear the doctors a pea about what they believe was the cause of everything. When the first responders arrived, they didn't see any signs of any external injuries. They didn't see any bruising or obvious deformities or bone fractures. They were under the impression that Jana might have suffered

from SIDS or sudden infant death syndrome. And the police see John doing what you would expect a distraught father to be doing. It's an officer named Dennis Bard starts taking pictures to the scene. There are blankets that are collect did um. One of the things that's not collected is the bottles that we're feeding to the children, and that becomes critical later on in the state the theory

of the case. The bottles are important, at least according to the state, because one of the doctors who testified on behalf of the state told the jury that how much milk and formula was in the bottle would have been really important in establishing the timing of abuse, because according to the state's doctor, Jada wouldn't have been able to consume anything from the bottle after suffering the type

of injuries that they believe Jada had suffered. And what we now know, and this is so important, is that a child can experience seventy two hours or more of lucidity after a traumatic event, whether accidental or intentional, which it's not entirely clear that this is in fact what happened to cause these symptoms. And I say symptoms because a myriad of medical conditions can cause what happened to Jada to happen. But it we're getting a little bit

ahead of ourselves here. So the first responders see this situation as a non criminal death, not a homicide. So the bottle was just left there and the lead investigator, Detective Shady, drove John to the hospital. Detective Shady also does a very brief interview of John at the time. Detective Shady and John go to the hospital following the ambulance, and once they get to the hospital, they find out

that Jada had been successfully resuscitated. John makes phone calls to family members to let them know that things were at least looking a little bit better now that they were at the hospital. And then doctors at the hospital

start to do medical tests. They do a cat scan, other tests, and again, ultimately the doctors began to believe that there were actual injuries to Jada, and in fact, once they got to the hospital, John was confronted by a doctor who did not testify at trial, but a difficult to the case um, a doctor Darryl Steiner, who came in and told John and the detective that Jada had suffered from what he called non accidental injuries. The hospital staff also claimed that there were old injuries, insinuating

that abuse had taken place for a significant period of time. So, John, you had just been through one of the most harrowing experiences that anyone can ever go through, and you were waiting to hear what the path forward might be for your daughter. And the doctors at a children's hospital, again the number three epicenter for shaking baby syndrome diagnoses and

prosecutions in the country. Those doctors tell you the family and detectives their opinion that the medical facts observed in Jada retinal bleeding, subdural bleeding, and brain swelling as well as a series of fractures, that these could only have been the result of a non accidental traumatic event, in other words, child abuse, violent shaking by Jada's caretaker at

the time that she went unresponsive. And again we now know that there are a slew of medical conditions that can cause these symptoms, and that children can experience seventy two hours or more of relatively normal behavior after such a traumatic event, if a traumatic event even ever occurred and was in fact what caused these symptoms. So back then many in the medical establishment, these doctors included, thought that they could diagnose a crime and the time of

that crime, which we now know that they could not. Meanwhile, your story has remained consistent ever since that faithful day, and nowhere in your recollection of events does even a minor frustration occur, let alone violent shaking. Never. Never, never. We all stay in the in the waiting room or in the area when they come in and they tell us, well, we believe that what's wrong with her was my accidental, was intentional, was caused by somebody, was caused by specifically

somebody who was there. So then at that point I felt like I was being accused or even suspected of something. And the only other person that was there with me was your mother. I know I didn't do nothing to her. I never will, so a manion things running through my head at that moment. I'm scared first and foremost most supportent for my daughter. Now I'm questioning and like, why are they saying somebody did this? Why they said somebody causes?

Like what happened? Like did she do something? So a conversation was had afterwards outside with just me and her, and you know, I asked her straight up, like did you do something? And she didn't not. You know, I didn't do nothing. I don't know what they're talking about, Like so now I didn't. I'm just confused, like I just don't know what. I don't know, But detectives continue

to question me, they keep talking to me. My natural reaction was to wrop rate with you know what I'm saying, It is my baby, So however, I can help whatever I can say about the end the day, I don't know much. I don't know what's this thing. I'm confused like anybody else, everybody else, I don't know what happened.

Must the finger was actually pointed and blame was cast and charges were brought a problem in indictments and couches placed on not That's when I started feeling like their intentions wasn't in the right place, because it they truly was, and you would have really sought out a real answerance that had just placed it all somebody simply because they were physically and the wrong. This episode is underwritten by Paul Weiss, Rifkin, Morton and Garrison, a leading international of firm.

Paul Weiss has long had an unwavering commitment to providing impactful, pro bono legal assistance to the most vulnerable members of our society and in support of the public interest, including extensive work in the criminal justice area. So with misplaced conference, they attribute injuries or symptoms to actions and persons when the science barely even supported it back then, let alone now.

The causes of Jada's symptoms range from accidental or intentional trauma to internal For instance, there's a well recognized condition where there's a little extra space in between the child's brain and skull that stretches the veins that bridge that space, which causes chronic subdural bleeding. It still hasn't been determined what causes this overlying condition, but birth trauma has been suggested as a potential cause, whether natural or cesarean and

this condition usually manifests within the child second to six months. Jada, of course, was six months old when this occurred, and it's logical to think that being birth as a twin would probably be described as a traumatic event, an event that could cause limb fractures as well. In these shaking baby syndrome cases, CT scans and m r I s will usually show the chronics of dural bleeding as they found in this case, which will then be used as

evidence of repeated abuse. Well, it's misused, but used anyway, when all along there's a legitimate and logical medical explanation. Other potential causes for symptoms like Jader's. I mean, there's you could write a medical textbook on this right. They include bleeding disorders, collagen disorders, copper disorders, genetic disorders, vitamin deficiencies,

even your everyday average household slip and fall. But I seriously doubt whether the number three epicenter for diagnosing or misdiagnosing child abuse did a full genetic workup to rule out all of these potential causes before it's just sort of cavalierly sending John up the river. So the allegation was that Jada had a series of fractures and that perhaps those fractures were of different ages, and that, combined with the findings of bleeding and of brain swelling, were

thought to indicate trauma, and specifically trauma from abuse. So, unfortunately, one of the things that we know happens in wrongful conviction cases all the time is that once the police and in this case, doctors start ahead in a certain direction, it begins to be very difficult for them to turn to a new path. And that's what happened here. The police and the doctors didn't look for any other causes. They seized on this diagnosis of shaking baby syndrome and

that's where they went. It's one of the things that makes it harder for us. You successfully represent John not impossible.

We think we'll be successful in this case ultimately, but it's one of the things that hampers our works some is that we don't have the medical records for Jada from Jada's births up until Arch nineteen, and the reason is that they were another gathered by either the medical investigators or the law enforcement investigators to look at and to determine whether there was other symptomology, other pathology, other things going on with Jada prior to March nineteenth instead

of just the medical records from March nineteenth going forward, particularly SPS, we've seen over two cases overturned and a lot of these, you know, it seemed clear cut that there was abuse and later on it was either some sort of minor accident or some sort of genetic cause

to this. And so, you know, I think people have this notion of what SPS is and then and we see clearly that there's a lot of varying reasons for that to potentially see these findings within a child and then they're just you know, initially ignored but then later come out um later on when you have a full

examination or full medical history. Well, and there's a lot of overlap here, greg, because a lot of the factor is that caused children to have either have health problems or have their health problems not be appropriately diagnosed or treated. Are also the factors that doctors and child protection workers will look at too, to say that statistically a child

is more likely to be abused. And so what I mean by that is parents who are young and parents who are people of color are both more likely to be accused of crimes and more likely to receive disparate treatment within the medical establishment. So those things actually worked

together to create an unjust result in many cases. Yeah, and it's worth noting that, just as we record, a study was just published which showed that there is intense cognitive bias amongst medical examiners, so much so that when given the same exact evidence, two different groups and we're talking large groups of medical examiners look at exactly the same evidence of a three year old that was brought to the hospital with head trauma and died, were four

times more likely to rule it a homicide when they were told that the child was black and that the child was brought in by the boyfriend of the mother, as opposed to the other group that was told with exactly the same evidence that the child was white, was brought in by a grandparent. So, just to really put a stamp on what you were saying, Kate, So let's

turn to the arrest. So John was was not arrested right away, although it was clear that once Jada was taken off of life support and passed away that they were going to charge him with murder. John didn't have a lot of money as a teenager charged with a crime. He had counsel appointed to represent him, and then counsel got the court to provide some funds for an additional

expert witness to help prepare for trial. So at trial, what was the state's theory, what was the evidence behind that, and then what did the defense put together to refute? So Dejah agreed with with everything that John had said previously about what happened um in the hour or so before Dejah left for school that day, So there was no inconsistency between what John has been saying and what Desia said happened. Desia, of course, claimed that she didn't

do anything to any of the children. According to her testimony at trial, she believed John may have lied to her about any wrongdoing, but they's just being told by the people who were supposed to know what they're talking about. The John killed her child and Kate. What were the medical findings that the state witnesses had and what they concluded.

The medical facts presented at trial in this case included a series of fractures, mostly fresh but at least one older fracture, retinal hemorrhaging, subdural hemorrhaging, signs of previous centeral hemorrhaging, and brains swelling. As I said before, this is the classic triad of shaking baby syndrome, and the state put on three medical witnesses. Dr Paul McPherson testified that the child would not have been able to suck any milk

after sustaining these kinds of injuries. But we now know a child can experience seventy two hours of lucidity after the injuries associated with shaken baby syndrome, and that's what published case reports have shown us. It could be even greater than that. So Dr McPherson conceded that the injuries may have been sustained before John woke at eight am to give Jada a bottle. The injuries may not have been a parent and the state had to steal up

that concession with Dr PAULA. Sunder, who testified that the causal injury could not have been sustained prior to eight am. Again, we now know that a child can experience seventy two hours of lucidity or more after the injuries associated with SPS. Their last medical witnesses testimony was based on the testimony of Detective Shady, who said that John told him in an unrecorded interview that Jada began to suck the bottle when he made it available by propping it on the

blanket nearby. This is refuted by two other recorded interviews with John, as well as Deja's uncontested statement that Jada had drunk halfer bottle before Jasia left for school. So you can see that the state was trying to box the car of Jada's death into the window that Jada

was under John's care alone. Summit County corner Dr. Lisa Cohler testified that, based on the secondhand information that the child drank a significant portion of the milk after eight am, the injuries were a result of being shaken, because if she could still muster the energy to drink milk after eight am, then the trauma must have been committed by

John because to go unconscious. However, and I know that I sound like a broken record here, if there was causal trauma, it could have happened seventy two hours into the past from when Jada became unresponsive. So the state's case was completely undermined by what we now know about the junk science that they were relying on to convict John.

The defense, however, called renowned forensic pathologist Dr John Arden, who agreed that these could have been injuries from abuse or not, and that they could have occurred between seven and nine am. However, the evidence available did not permit a medical opinion within degree of specificity regarding the timing of any of the fresh injuries, and that it is not medically reasonable to make any such determinations. Subdural hemorrhaging

does not typically cause immediate incapacitation. So the way the state was trying to fence in this crime to that eight to nine forty a m window just doesn't hold water. Dr Arden testified that Jada's medical records corroborate John's telling of events to a reasonable degree of medical certainty. And Dr Arden, isn't you know, I'll say, for lack of a better term, one of these defense witness gun for higher that will that will kind of say you know

what he wants. I mean, he was a believer of SPS for a very long time and he's mentioned very recently, like you said in more recent studies that doctors need to be very mindful of diagnosing this and they're really missing de facts. And Kate, you mentioned it, and I'll ask the tough question. I mean, you have fractures and limbs at least diagnosed by state's witnesses and other things at trial. Were there any explanations about where potentially these

injuries may have come? Because you know you, I think you you're on a jury. You're seeing multiple fractures and and damage to the head and then also to the extremities. What is important to know about medical findings in these kinds of cases is that medical findings might look like abuse, but they might not necessarily be abuse, and that can happen for a few reasons. One is that injuries that are accidental can be misinterpreted by medical providers and investigators

as abuse. And another is related to this assumption that sometimes medical providers make that because they don't know about the child's underlying medical conditions. If the child doesn't have any so maybe a child has a bone disorder, they might fracture very easily like The classic example of this is little babies in a neonatal intensive care unit who are born for example, very premature, and they can experience fractures with totally normal handling, changing their diaper, things like that.

But that's not the only scenario in which children can have what appeared to be really serious injuries from little or no trauma. And because we don't know enough about Jada's medical condition, it's really hard for us to know what kind of actions were required for her to sustain the injuries that she had. So after the presentation of dueling, experts at Defense called John to the stand, who said what you've already heard here, that he did not hurt

those children. Ever, that he did not see Jay to drink from the bottle after eight am, but simply propped up a half full bottle on a blanket, consistent with Deja's uncontested statement. And again, all this fucking nonsense about the bottle is completely irrelevant because current science supports that in the case of a traumatic event, it could have happened any time over the prior three days or even longer. So, whether it was intentional or an accident, Jada could have

fallen off the couch the changing table. Knowing what we know now, one cannot maintain that those injuries could have only happened one way, the way that the state maintains still maintains violent shaking while Jada was alone in John's care. And that's if the cause even was a traumatic event rather than a pre existing medical condition. And like I've already mentioned here, there are and we've counted them. There are eight eight potential conditions that we know of so far,

and the research is ongoing. Now. I want to quote the man that first hypothesized Jakeing baby syndrome back in the nineteen seventies, Dr Norman guth Kelch. We mentioned him earlier, and he wrote an article in two thousand twelve. I'll never forget this that it was titled after forty years of Consideration, and that article was harshly critical of his

very own hypothesis end everything that has happened since. And so in a two thousand and twelve interview, Dr goth Kelch said, and I quote, I think we need to go back to the drawing board and make a more thorough assessment of these fatal cases. And I'm going to bet that we are going to find in every or at least the large majority of cases, that the child had another severe illness of some sort which was missed until too late. End quote. I mean that's the man himself.

But unfortunately that was two thousand twelve and John's trial was in two thousand eleven. So after hearing the state's witnesses up against John's witness and not knowing really a fraction of what we know now, John was convicted almost predictably and sentenced to fifteen years to life. John, can you take us back to that terrible moment when the jury came back in stand up, I'm listening to diverting how on how one was was the highest degree of

mother sort? We find a defender. John Sotoun was not guilty. I actually turned back to my family and that the whole sense of feeling of relief just come over me, and I'm just like finally, like all the everything, just all the way everything just went away. I still greve me the loss of my daughter, but like the stress and the worry of the jail situation and all of this, it just went away because I heard the worst my guilty, not knowing that they got the whole arrest of the

indictment to read. So how to murder As a result of fluenci thought, we find the defending John sounds guilty. It's just like all the life and my body just left. Antually. It was just tears. It was just like I can't even explain the villain, Like look at my mom, she crying. I just crying. Everybody crying, even my bay She's crying. And that moment on this new line, it's about to be the longest, hardest fight of my life. And they say, asked me to fifty years of life. Yeah, I'm here

with grown, mean, some fresh a team. I'm here with convictive killers. I'm an air with people started all types of different type of clients, and I gotta survive. I started trying to educate myself. I got my TV. I just got to survive. I'm here now, so I gotta try to do everything I can to grow and like prosper the best that I can. I've seen a lot of here. I learned a lot of here. I grew up. I found myself in here. I was a kid when I came in on almost twenty nine out, and I

learned a lot of here. I'm a whole another person. I'm perspected, my mentality, my outlook on life, everything is different. Done. What is being done now for this young man. Is there any other exculpatory evidence that we haven't already outlined here, or any evidence that the state head constitutional violations. In terms of constitutional violations, a defendant has a right not to be convicted on the basis of unreliable, quasi scientific evidence.

And that's what happened in John's case, and that's what happens in the so called shaken Baby syndrome prosecutions around the country, and particularly in Ohio, and even more particularly in Summit County, which is where Akron is. As Kate pointed out near the beginning today, Ohio is a particular hotspot for these sorts of cases, and not just Ohio,

but Summit County and Akron specifically. So either the people of Acron really like to abuse their children, or there's something going on at Acron Children's Hospital and in the Summit County Prosecutor's office with respect to their proclivity for jumping to the conclusion of child abuse and bringing these types of cases. We are preparing to bring post conviction

litigation on John's path. We will argue that the science in this field has changed considerably over the last ten or eleven years that if a jury could have heard in what it could hear today, that a conviction simply wouldn't have happened. So really, what you have here, and taking a step back, is you have a horrible tragedy. You have a conviction based upon science that, if it was try today, would not be a viable theory, and you have a man still behind bars based upon that

unreliable theory of shaking baby sitter correct. Absolutely so for our listeners, I'm sure you're feeling the same outrage that I'm feeling now. And what can people do? Um, I certainly think that people can start writing letters to the parole board. Um, John won't be eligible for parole until and hopefully by that time we'll have successfully completed litigation

on his behalf and parole won't matter. But I certainly think that that people can start writing to the parole board about these issues, because John isn't the only person in Ohio who has to before a parole board ultimately and convince the parole board that shaking baby syndrome just shouldn't serve as the underpinning for a conviction that keeps someone in prison for the rest of their lives. So

that's something that people can do. The other thing I would I would say that people should do, even apart from John's case, is be informed. If you get a jury duty summons, show up and then don't just believe what the government scientists tell you, think about it, decide whether or not what they're saying is credible and makes sense, and listen with open ears to the experts that defense counsel puts on the stand as well. And remember it's

innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around. So with that, John, we're thinking of you all the time, and we're going to do everything weekend. You have an extraordinary team, not just on this call, but at the Ohio Innocence Project and throughout the innocence community. UM I encourage people to donate to the Ohio Innocence Project so that we can help John and so many others who have been wrongly convicted in the state of Ohio. So with that, now, of course it's a part of the

show called Closing Arguments. First of all, I think are distinguished guests, even we'll call it a panel today, first time I've ever used that word in closing arguments. So from from Greg and I thanks again for being here, Greg, Thank you for co hosting with me as well. Thank you very much relying me to co host here Jason. Okay, and now we'll go to Donald and save Kate for last just because of alphabetical order, and then over to

you John of course for the closing arguments. Thank you Jason and Gregg for having us on today and for talking about this really really important issue and this important part of the criminal justice system that hasn't gotten enough attention recently. When I work with my clients who have been convicted of child abuse through this shaking baby syndrome theory, and as I talked to their families, I alternate between

sadness and anger. I'm angry, as is everybody be in the podcast today that people go to prison over cases that look like this, and I'm sad because of what it does to people and their families. John went to prison when he was a teenager, and if the State of all House has its way, he'll never get out again for something that wasn't a crime. It was a crime that never happened. These cases are enormously difficult to undo. I compare these cases sometimes to like trying to poke

a hole through jello. It's easier to make a hole through a very solid object than it is through something that's weak and weakly it just closes up around the hole that you've just made, and trying to undo these shaken baby convictions can be exactly like that. We need to do better in our criminal justice system. We need to pay attention to the science. We need to make it a little bit easier to discover the evidence to

undo these convictions after they happen. In Ohio, for instance, we really need the ability to do discover before we file an action so that we can get things like Jada's medical records from birth up until five months, so that we can put together the full medical history that we need to do the work in this kind of case. The prosecution of these types of cases are based on a laudable goal, and that's to protect children and protect the most vulnerable. Nobody wants child abuse, Nobody wants to

see abuse at all. Unfortunately, what's happened is that doctors and other experts believe that in these cases they can do what's called air on the side of the child. They can accuse someone of abuse when they're not sure or when all of the science doesn't unerringly point to the defendant, and you can't air on the side of the child in these kinds of cases. It's impossible any error is going to harm both the child who may be a victim and everyone else involved in the case.

And that's because when these cases are investigated improperly or charges our breath that are wrongful, that means that a child can be separated from a loving family, or that a grieving parent who's lost to child can be punished for something that they didn't do. And it also might mean that a child who is ill or who has had an accident might not get the right medical care for their illness. There's no way to air on the side of the child in these cases, and that's why

we have to be so careful. We cannot have convictions that are premised on science that is shaky or science that is ambiguous. And that's why the Center for Integrity in Forensic Sciences exists because everybody's right to justice and a fair result depends on a fair process and a fair trial, and you can't have that when there is testimony or opinion introduced at the trial that is overstated or just playing wrong and now of course over to you, John.

I just want to sign light unless it's a way to my own people to realize what I'm going through, and I'm not even only person going through this is possibly being accused of causing that everywhere children dudes our challenge science like nothing that's not even legit. It's a lot of whole theory and the whole theory and the whole concept of the same detentional. So I just want to share a night on that situation first and foremost, because I know that it's gonna get better. I know that.

I don't know that. I know that because I know I deserve it. I know that truth gonna come out. I love my daughter conditionally, under all my children. I have three children, including my daughter. We cashed the way Presidente. I love them unconditionally, to do anything to them, will give my life for them. I gotta continue the pipe for my life and the pipe i'm afraid of them. I gotta continue the life of just from my daughter, because at the end of the day, that's who's truly about.

When we find out the real cause of what happened, we're here, that's gonna automatically vindicate me that's at the mc auno ate me. But it's gonna also bring closure to my family, my child's mother's family. Everybody don't say because it's gonna give us the truth is, it's gonna let us know. It's gonna actually questions that we all got butt then of the days just about my notice about Jada, like it's all about Jada for Yeah, I

want my freedom, Yeah I desire my freedom. But all will happened where in the closure that our family need. And then finally, Ben, when to get to a place where we can move forward because I've never really ever even been able to heal from me. I never filed closer because not only did I suffer one of the deepest losses that anybody on this earth can can suffers on the child, not only did I experience thing and have to deal with that I gotta deal with stay

here every single day. Thank you for listening to Wrong for Conviction with Jason Flam. Please support your local innocence projects and go to the link in our bio to see how you can help. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall, Jeff Clyburne and Kevin Warns. The music on the show, as always, is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful

Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one