It was the summer of nineteen eighty four. Tony I. Panovitch was in the process of building his house painting business on the west side of Cleveland. On August twenty third, a woman named Mary Anne Flynn was beaten and strangled
to death. Authorities collected seamen from her body. Police soon identified plenty of likely suspects, including a violent ex boyfriend, an ex tenant who had been accused of rape, and a few other men who had keys to her house, as well as Tonya Panovitch, who had done some painting for her earlier that summer, but Tony's whereabouts were entirely
accounted for. On the night of her murder, Tony was perhaps too cooperative with police, refusing a lawyer, answering all their questions, and even voluntarily giving up hair, blood, and saliva samples. He happened to have the same blood type as fluis found at the scene, but the state presented that piece of evidence without mentioning that Miss Flynn had
that exact same blood type. The state hit evidence that Detective life I do understand and in nineteen eighty four, without DNA testing available to prove his innocence, Tony would have to wait for that scientific advancement to free him from his death sentence after thirty two years, but remarkably, his time on death row didn't end there. This is
Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm, and soon you'll be hearing the subject of this episode, a man named Anthony Ipanovich, calling in from death row in Ohio, where he has been for the better part of four decades for a crime he
didn't commit. With us on the show today is Dale Base, a federal public defender who has been the lead lawyer and staunch advocate for miss thank A Podovich since nineteen ninety one, probably before some of you were born, that's how low he's been working on this case. So Dale, welcome back to Wrongful Conviction.
Thank you, Jason, it's good to be back.
Hello. This is a prepaid debit call from Tony, an inmate at the Chillacoffee Correctional Institution. To accept this call, Pres zero, thank you for using gtlllt.
Hey, Tony, I'm happy to have you here with us, but obviously I'm really sorry that it's under these circumstances.
All right, Thanks Jason, I appreciate that. I appreciate this opportunity to tell my story.
Now, Tony, I want to go back to before any of this happened. You grew up in Ohio, right, Oh, yeah.
Yeah, I grew up on the east side of Cleveland. You quit going to school in about the eighth grade. I just started working when I was twelve years old. I like construction work, though I like working outside. I was a truck driver for about five years. Then I was trying to get a paying business started because I figured that, you know, the summer months, I could work outside painting, and then in the winter months I would be able to drive truck.
And so this brings us to the summer of nineteen eighty four. Two neighbors have both hired you to do some painting, Mary Ann Flynn and the guy that lived across the street for her. You painted the outside bottom half of Miss Flynn's house. Now she intended to paint her window frames herself, and then you started working across the street painting her neighbor's entire house. And that brings
us up to August twenty third, nineteen eighty four. You noticed that she hadn't gotten to painting the windows yet and tried to get a little more business for yourself.
So when I seen her, I walked over. I asked her if she wasn't going to be able to get to those frames that I said she wanted, I could get it done, you know, because the weather's changing. She said, well, she'd let me know. I think I told her it was going to be like sixty bucks or something to paint them. So that was the last time I had seen her or talked to her. It was around four thirty. Well, went back across the street, we finished up the job,
then then we headed to the bar. That's what I did the rest of the night, you know, was barhopping in the neighborhood.
So later that night, mary Ann Flynn was raped and brutally murdered in her bedroom. She'd been strangled and severely beaten, and semen was found and collected from both her mouth and her vagina.
Yes, so mary Anne's body was transported to the County Coroner's office in Cyahoga County, Okay.
And I got to stop for a second because Kyahaga County was notorious as one of, if not the most corrupt, disorganized, disfunctional crime labs in the entire country at that time. The police, prosecutors, and the Corner's office have all been the subject of news articles, scandals, podcasts for being sloppy or outright corrupt.
And let me give you a couple of examples. Liliana Segura with The Intercept did some great reporting that documented a pattern of misconduct in the Cayahaga County prosecutor Office. And in twenty eighteen, season three of the podcast serial feature the Cleveland Police Department, the Prosecutor's office, and the courts in Cayahaga County as being somewhat corrupt, and the folks at the Cayahga County Coroner's Office admitted that they
ran a sloppy lab. So you have all that going on during the time that Tony's case was making its way through the court system in Cayahoga County.
And of course this crime lab's dubious work will become relevant later. But first, Tony, let's get back to the investigation of your alibi. You had gone bar hopping. The bars you went to that night, you were a bit of a regular at and your whereabouts were accounted for by the people who saw you all through the night.
Oh yeah, either people I frink withed these bars, and these people knew who I was. And as far as them telling the cops that I was there at the bar, that was no problem as far as my I mean, I was where I said I was, and then when I left one bar, went to the next one within the time that it would have taken normally to get from A to B. No hour delays in between or
nothing like that. There was no skipping. So wherever I was that night, whatever bar I went to, whatever time I got there and left, they know that was all covered.
So how did you get pulled into this?
Well, I'll tell you, Jason. Here's what the homicide detectives told me. My name came up in the investigation as they were canvassing the neighborhood, and I go downtown with them and they start asking me questions and they tell me, well, we're going to have to hold you. We want to check your alibi. They kept me in there that night. Next day they wondered if I would mind giving them a blood sample. I'm like, yeah, no, I got no problem with that. They take my blood, they want to
take some of my hair and my saliva. So I give them all that, and they're asking me if you want a lawyer. You know, before we asked that I don't need no loader. Man. You know, I'm cooperating one hundred percent because I didn't do it. Then they'd asked, can we go to your house and look at your clothes? I'm like, yeah, okay, cool. See I'm not too upset about why they are doing this because I am an Xican. I did four years or one month for armed robbery. I had it coming. I did my time, you know.
And they told me that right off the jump. Being an x con made him look at me a little harder than you know, average Joe. I say, okay, cool. So they went to my house to get most of my clothes, and they keep me in jail another night. Well the next day, by now, I'm pissed off. I'm talking to Detective Zalor. I said, that's it. I'm ready to go. He said, well, you know, we don't have to charge you. We can hold you so many days. You know, it was up that day. I said, this
is it, man, I'm going home. He said, well, let me come back this afternoon. He said, I'm waiting on the lab report. Anyhow, he come back about three three thirty got me out of the south So I leave, I go home. I'm not thinking too much of it. I'm just wondering when I'm going to get my clothes back, because when I get home, I see they got most of them gone. Maybe five days later, I had a ticket that I had gotten a couple of weeks earlier that I had to go to court for. So I
called down to Detective Zalor. I say, listen, I'm gonna be in court tomorrow. I want to come pick up my clothes. He said, no problem. So when I go down to go to court, he tells me he wants me to come upstairs because he wanted the corner to take a look at me. They take me in the room. The corner comes in. They say, well, they want to look at my tenis okay? So I let her look. She looks at it and says, no, this isn't it and leaves the room.
Wait wait, why, well I know what it is now.
There was this guy named Ronnie Shelton, I know, he's called the West Side Rapist. He was going around raping women all over that area on the west side of Cleveland. At that time, and he had something wrong. I guess he had some kind of scabs and stuff on his dick that they wanted to see if I had on mine. And well, of course it wasn't me, so all.
Right, So continue was there anything else round about this contact with Zalor?
I had called to ask about my clothes before I went down to the traffic ticket. Just before he hung up, he said, well, you know, Tony, you could still get indicted for this. So I said, if that happens, give me a call.
And that conversation comes up later at trial when Detective Sala gives it. Well, he gave a very misleading testimony. But for now there's this indictment threat looming. But you're not too worried because after all, your innocent weeks go by and nothing happens until you were house sitting for your in laws.
So this is like October. Second, I come out to shower, my wife's in the shower. It's about noon. The phone rings, Detective Salar, I need you to come down. I talk to I said, yeah, well, you know, I don't tell you everything. Man, I got no more to add. He's like, no, no, Tony, I'm going to have to hold you for trial. Man, I need you to come down. I said, all right, all right, I said, I'll be done on a wa I said, I'm going to take my wife over to
my mother's. I'm gonna let them know what's going on, you know. So I said, I don't want them to see on the news that you rest me for this stuff, you know. And he said, yeah, okay, no problem, just come on down later on this afternoon. So I hang up the phone. I'm thinking, you know, I never heard no shit like this. This is bullshit. So I walk outside. I figured the cops are out there. I just don't
want him busting through the door. I got my daughters in their little bass of that there on the couch right. My wife's in the shower. You know, if I really am going to be on trial for some of the crime like this, they got to be standing right out there with chatgun. So I walk outside and there's nothing, nothing, nobody. I stand there for a few minutes. Nothing. I go back in the house, call a lawyer up and I asked him to check out it. He called me back
and he said, wow, Tony, he said, you've been indicted. Man, you're facing the electric chair. He asked me what I was going to do. I said, well, you know, I'm going on my mom's like I told him, And I'll be down later on this afternoon, you know. I mean, this was it noon or twelve thirty when he calls me on the phone and arrests me for this terrible crime. I mean, it's a terrible crime. There's no offenser. But and he arrested me on the telephone. If you'll tell me,
I take my time coming down me. So you know, my baby's only six weeks old. I kissed my daughter, I kiss my wife. Tell my brother Vince, you know, catch you guys later, you know. And I went down to the jail, probably about four thirty.
I mean, I got to believe they knew that you weren't really the rapist and murderer. Otherwise is the way they behave this way, I'll tell.
You what he said. I get down there, we go in this room and I said, look, man, why are you doing this to me? He said, I'm not the one doing it. The prosecutor is the one that got the indictment against you. I said, but what I mean, man, And he says, and this is for sure never forget this. He said, well, Tony, he said, you know, this is a high profile case and there's a lot of pressure on us to get somebody, you know, all your alibi. This is their drunks, and you look worse than anybody else.
And I'm like, wow, man, that ain't right, you know. He said, well, you know, he said, make sure you demand a speedy trial. They got to do it within ninety days. I said, yeah, yeah. He said, what are you going to do about your business? I said, you're trying to get it going. He says, you know, he said, they're going to drag your name through the mud. And he said, you're not going to be able to get work in this town and cleeve and I said, well, maybe I'll go out to the suburbs, you know, because
that's where my in law's living. I mean, this is the guy who's locking me up out of charge of burglary, rape and murder, the same one who arrests me on the telephone.
This episode is brought to you by Stand Together. Stand Together is a philanthropic community dedicated to helping people improve their lives. For more than twenty years, Stand Together and its partners have been on the front lines of criminal justice reform. By empowering people to take action, supporting them, and working with businesses, Stand Together tackles the root causes of problems in our communities and empowers those closest to
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is underwritten by the AIG pro Bono Program. AIG is a leading global insurance company, and for over a decade, the AIG pro Bono Program has provided thousands of hours of free legal services and other support to nonprofit organizations and individuals most in need. More recently, the program added criminal and social justice reform as a key pillar of its mission. The only evident him was purely circumstantial, definitely
wrong place, wrong time, he was painting the house. There was no denying that he knew the victim, but that doesn't make him guilty. A lot of people were in contact with her that same day. That's not a basis on which to convict somebody and sentence them to death, especially when none of the rest of the evidence matched up. And then the trial itself Dale, Now this is before you got involved. It's so long ago. When did the trial take place?
December of nineteen eighty four, And the investigation that the two lawyers representing Tony did to prepare for trial wasn't as robust as it should have been. They went out and spoke to a few of Tony's witnesses, but they did not hire experts to look at the forensics. They did not interview the detectives. They had a very cursory interview with the people at the coroner's office.
So without a thorough investigation, the prosecution was able to pull a number of dirty tricks. And this tangled web started really back when the autopsy was conducted.
Right, Yes, there was a piece of hair that was found between her bound hands behind her back, and that hair could only be placed there by the person who assaulted Mary Anne Flynn. The hair was tested, it wasn't Tony's hair, it wasn't mary Anne's hair, So the state had to come up with an explanation for how the
hair got there. The evidence that the state presented a trial was that the hair was lying on her open hand, which supported the theory that the hair fell from someone's head, a Morgue attendant one of the personnel at the crime scene. So what the state argued to the jury was disregard the hair. What we found out later is that the hair, as I noted, was found between her bound hands behind her back.
And this is just a beginning. I mean, they even planted that scene in opening statements. But there's so much more here to unpack, so go ahead, Dale.
At trial, the state put on evidence that it swabbed the victim's vagina, and that swab contained fluid deposited by someone who had blood Type A and was a secretor, and someone who was a secretor secretes antigens into their bodily fluids. And the state put on evidence that Tony was a Type A secretor, so he was likely to be the perpetrator. What the state withheld was that Miss Flynn was also an A type secretor, so that meant that the fluids in Miss Flynn's body were just as
likely her own. Now that is the only physical evidence that the state put on at trial. All the rest of the evidence was circumstantial.
So the detective gave misleading Well that's not even a strong enough way of putting it, but they gave misleading testimony. During the trial, right, the prosecutor asks Detective Zalor, did Tony ever make a statement to you?
And he said, Tony said to me, when I'm indicted, can you let me know? The defense asked for copies of notes. Detective said he didn't have any notes at the time. The defense was not entitled to the police reports. The defense lawyer made an objection. The judge ordered the prosecutor to review the police reports. Prosecutor did so and said, there is no report of any oral statement that Tony
made to detective Zalor. Well, a couple of years later, when we made a Public Records Act request, we found that type statement by Detective Zalor where he wrote Tony said if I'm indicted, that is critical? And why is when important? Because during the closing arguments the prosecutor hammered on those words and said, this proves he had a guilty mind.
If I'm indicted. When I'm indicted, it's actually kind of terrifying to think that the substitution of that one little word could have made such a huge difference in the outcome of this case. What was your sense of things while the jury was deliberating.
I totally expected to be found that guilty. I mean, I didn't do it, you know. I look, I did time. I copped out. I had aggravator robbers. I copped out. I went to PLU that I did my time. You commit a crime, you make a deal. Man. This case, there's no deal making here. I didn't do it.
But they took whatever they could muster and whatever they could hide to tell their story, and the jury bought it. Lock Stock and Barrel. What was that moment like when they found you guilty?
When their judge said guilty, I slammed my hand. It wasn't a conscious thing I did. It was just a reaction. I slammed my hand on the table and I said, that's bullshit. They pulled the jury and they were asking the jury, you know is this year verdic Conditioner called twelve of them. And as they're doing it, I kept saying, now, man, it's bullshit at any right.
And Dale, this is a laundry list of crimes that he was convicted of.
Tony was convicted of aggravated murder, aggravated burglary, two counts of rape. What's interesting about the rape counts is that they were carbon copy counts, meaning the state said count one of rape vaginal and or oral rape, second count of rape vaginal and or oral rape. So we don't have a distinction between the vaginal rape and the oral rape. And this becomes critical later on in post conviction litigation.
Tony was sentenced to fifteen to twenty five years for the burglary and rape counts for a summer of forty five to seventy five years, and he received a death sentence for the murder charge. Can you talk about I mean death row, It's it conjures up really everyone's worst nightmares back then.
They took me straight to Lucasville Pennitentiary where death row was, and they put me right there in the cell on death row. Death row is not like being in prison. It's a whole different expanse and ten times worse than prison. You know, I'm not going to the pro board and going home next week because I stole a car. These people are going to kill me if I don't get back out. In nineteen eighty nine, the federal court on
a rape pace in Florida ruled death. DNA evidence is sound, signific evidence and can be used to show a person committed a crime or not. Immediately. Tom Shaw has seen my trial lawyer file devotion requesting DNA testing.
Then nineteen eighty nine, an attorney for Tony requested files from the Flynn autopsy. At that time, the vaginal at oral slides could not be located. They were assumed to have been destroyed. But nineteen ninety one is when you got involved there, right, And this is when the three slides were magically located.
In nineteen ninety one, Forensic Science Associates, at the request of the Cayahaga County Coroner's Office, conducted DNA testing. I found out about the three slides in nineteen ninety two when I got a phone call from the county prosecutor saying, we found these three slides. Now we would like some of Tony's blood to compare it to the slides. These are the same people who withheld evidence. This is the same county where the coroner's office was a sloppy lab.
This is the same police department where the detective lied on the stand. We need to be damn sure we know where these slides came from. When we start digging into it, what we learned is that all slides are marked with the county corner case number. In Tony's case, it was one nine zero seven three seven something like that. There was one slide that was marked L nine zero, so it was misnumbered, and that slide turned out to
be an important slide. And I resisted providing a DNA sample from Tony for testing because I was concerned about the chain of custody of those slides.
And there's a bit of a twisted history about these three slides. So KaiA Hagen County first denied the existence of these three slides in nineteen eighty nine. Then in nineteen ninety one they magically find the slides, the missing slides. There's three of them. Two are marked properly as Dale mentioned, one vaginal and one oral, but the other one is supposed to be an oral slide and is not marked properly,
the L nine zero slide that Dale mentioned. In nineteen ninety one, a lab called Forensic Science Associates was tasked with developing DNA profiles from all three slides, and with the available technology and methods, was only able to develop a testable male DNA profile from the oral slide marked L nine zero. Now, Cuyahoga County had Tony's blood, hair, and saliva samples that he had provided during the investigation, but for whatever reason, those samples were not available to
FSA for comparison. Dale rightfully had serious concerns about the chain of custody and so he denied access to a new DNA sample from Tony. So the L nine zero slide sat in a freezer until two thousand, when FSA used the most current technology and methods to test it, and in two thousand and seven a federal district court ordered that Tony provide a sample for comparison to L nine zero. So a report is generated and the prosecution
says that Tony couldn't be excluded as a contributor. But for some strange reason, this report never makes it into evidence. And you'd think, with how fertherly the state is trying to hang onto the conviction, that a report like that would have been the centerpiece of post conviction.
The state never presented those reports to either the federal court or the state court. During the fourth post conviction hearing. What the state did was simply waived around these reports, but they never offered those reports into evidence. When we tried to take depositions of the folks from FSA who did the testing generated the reports, the state prevented us from doing so and told the judge that they were
not going to present these reports. So all of this information about this oral slide and whatever test results the state has has never been tested through the adversary process. None of the people who generated these documents have testified under oath, and they have not been subject to the rigorous scientific scrutiny before something like this is introduced into evidence. So bottom line, the oral slide is not evidence.
If this was really something that could have hurt Tony, I'm gonna speculate here, but I mean, it seems pretty obvious they would have admitted it as evidence. They have had so many opportunities to do so, but they've declined
every single time. So that brings us to two thousand and nine, when Dale and the team found out that back in two thousand, an assistant prosecutor requested that the Cayahaga County Corner's Office tested two remaining properly labeled vaginal and oral slides that had previously not yielded a DNA profile.
We were preparing for a hearing in the Habeas Corpus case, and the judge allowed for some discovery and one of the people that we deposed was the corner from Cayahoga County. She brought documents that we had subpoenaed and we first learned that in two thousand, the state did another test, got results, didn't share those results with us, And in twenty twelve we went back to state court for the fourth time and had a hearing on that evidence that was tested in two thousand.
So twenty fourteen, the defense expert, doctor Rick Staub, was able to prove conclusively that Tony could be excluded as a contributor to the vaginal slide and the two unknown male contributors were in fact present. So Tony was acquitted of the vaginal rape charge quitted and the second count of rape was dismissed on the grounds that had lacked specificity.
And it was one year later, March sixth, twenty sixteen, went to your appeals court three to zero. They all three agreed, yes, the DNA proved I was innocent and I got out that day.
Okay, go to that moment if you can.
Oh man, I've always been waiting for this moment to happen. And my daughter Elena, the one that I shifts goodbye. When I went and turned myself in, she came out with two of my grandchildren, my granddaughter Raina and grandson Navan. Oh Man, first time I got to see them in person. You know, I called the money, well my wife, now, Beth. I got a hold of her. I let her know I'm home.
So tell us about your wife, Beth. How did that all develop?
I've known her like twenty some years, you know, she was in prison and everything. I mean, I've been in love with that woman for many years. I mean I knew that I was going to get out someday, and we had, you know, decided when I got out, then we'll see if we're going to have a relationship, you know, and if we can have one, because you know, I'm like a lab experiment. Maybe all the years locked up so her and the kids would come over several times a week, you know. When I first got home, finally,
I said, I don't know what we're waiting for. I said, Mab, you know, I love you, and she's like, you know, I love you too, And I said, so, you know we're old. What are we waiting for. Let's get married. Man. I don't spend my life locked up. I want to live. And she's like, okay, but I got two granddaughters that you're going to have to raise. And I'm like, maybe I got no problem. I didn't get a chance to raise my kids. Now I'm getting a second chance at life.
I'm sure everyone's wondering, Okay, so why in God's name is he calling us from death row?
Well, the state appealed to the Ohio Supreme Court. What the Ohio Supreme Court determined was that under the Ohio DNA Testing Statute that in order for a death row prisoner to get an evidentiary hearing on the issue of DNA, the prisoner has to make the request for the testing. What happened here is that the state did the testing in two thousand, kept it from us until two thousand and nine, and in twenty twelve through twenty fourteen, we present evidence that Tony is excluded as the person who
committed the rape in a single assailant homicide. And what the Ohio Supreme Court did was it put form over substance. Because Tony did not request the DNA testing, he was not entitled to that hearing. So in the court's view, that hearing, where he was a design rated of the rate charges never existed.
So you from your death row cell were required to have requested the DNA that the state had insisted didn't exist.
That blew my mind. That next Friday, my wife, she asked me to bake some mac and cheese. My other stepdaughter she just moved into a place she had no washer and dryer. I went. I got to Washington dryer. Now I gotta go pick the grand babies that were raising, Chloe and the Jay, and I gotta go pick them up from school. I got to take the dog to the vet. I got to wash her a dryer in the back of the pickup truck. I'm doing normal stuff that people do out there, you know, in life. You know,
I'm loving every minute of it. And I get out of the truck and I'm heading heading to the porch, and here come these six cars man Us Marshals jump out, Highway patrol and Akron Police. I went from my front yard to death Road, just like that. Man. No facts change, no evidence changed, nothing changed, Get off, geth throw and go home for nothing. It's like I'm in the Twilight zone, man, you know. I mean I wake up every day and it's like, Wow, I just can't hardly understand what I'm doing here.
Man, Tony, I can only say that this will not stand. We will not allow this to stand. We're going to just grow this movement and we're going to find a way to help your team get you justice.
Yeah. Law professor at Georgetown, Mark Howard, and three of his students, they got interested in my case. They made a documentary, and then they set up a website. I guess they have a petition.
Which is Justice for a Panovich dot com. Please go visit the website when there's a petition on the page, and there will be a link to it in our episode bio. So please go there as well and shout out to the students for their great work. So it's now time for us to turn to the closing of the show. This is the part of the show where, first of all, thank our distinguished guests, Dale Base, Federal Public Defender Advocate extraordinaire Tony, thank you for being here
with us. Hang in there, buddy. We're going to bring you home. And now I'm going to turn my microphone off, kick back, close my eyes and listen. Dale you first, and then Tony.
Thank you, Jason. It's been almost thirty six years since Tony was sentenced to death. Since then, as his case moved through the levels of a pellet review, evidence that the state withheld a trial began to seep out, the secretor's status of the victim, other suspects, lies by police and prosecutors uncovered. The problem was and still is that this case, like all death penalty cases, moved through the system, the courts put form over substance in decline to look
at the merits of the claim. What we have here is a wrongful conviction. How do we know that? It's because Tony is excluded from a rape in a case where the state's theory is that there was a single assailant. This doesn't make sense to me as a lawyer, and may not make sense, but people need to understand that the system is constructed this way. The system needs to be fixed, and we need to write this wrong in
Tony's case. The team that has worked on this case over the years from my office from Mark Devan's office, from the law firm of Crol and Mooring. We're not going to give up.
Tony over to you.
First of all, Jason, I want to thank you for having me on your podcast and for giving me this opportunity to tell my story. From the very beginning, I said I was innocent. I didn't commit this crime. I had no problem cooperating with the cops, given in my hair and blood saliva, answering all their questions. I'm innocent. Come on here I am. Thirty six years later, after being sent home, being found innocent and sent home, I'm back on death row on a technicality, amazing as it is,
and I'm still innocent. I didn't do this. All I want is my day in court. That's it. Just what are they afraid of? Let a jury see all the evidence, you know, and I'm confident. I have no doubt in my mind that they'll find me not guilty. There's no doubt because I didn't commit this crime, and I think the evidence. In fact, I don't know what I can say or do to convince people of my innocence. You know, I've been saying it for years. Just look at the evidence.
Look at the fact, and again I say, I appreciate having this opportunity, and Jason, you're doing a good job here for society, and I appreciate everything that you're doing, and I really appreciate what you're doing for me.
Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flahm. Please support your local innocence projects and go to the link in our bio to see how you can help. I'd like to thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff Cliburn, and Kevin Warnis. The music on the show, as always, is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and
on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flahm is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one