This episode was recorded pre COVID at the Atlanta Innocence Network conference in two thousand nineteen. On April fifth, a woman was exiting her car at a parking lot just north of Atlanta when a man approached, asking about a woman named Carol. When he got close enough, he pulled a gun, forced her into the passenger seat, drove to a dead end, and proceeded to raper. After the attack, the victim went to the hospital for a rape kit.
With a well lit parking lot and over forty five minutes with her attacker, she was able to put together a composite sketch. On April tenth, a near identical incident occurred along the same stretch of road. A man approached a woman in a parking lot and asking for Carol, before using a thread of violence to get her back into the car. However, this time the victim was able to talk the attacker into leaving before a rap occurred.
The police showed this would be victim the composite sketch, and it appeared there was a serial rapist operating in the North Atlanta area. Then on April Willie Pete Williams, along with two of his friends, were stopped by police for suspicious behavior in the area of the attacks. Police noticed that Pete resembled the sketch and came up with a reason to arrest him, saying that he gave them false information in order to bring him in to be photographed.
His photo was shown to both women for a positive i D. While Pete was locked up, Three more attacks would occur with the same m O, but it was already too late. Pete Williams spent nearly twenty two years in prison before DNA testing proved that another man was responsible for all five attacks. This is wrongful conviction with Jason Flom. Welcome back to wrongful Conviction. This episode is
gonna be a very unique one. We have with us Pete Williams, who served twenty two years in Georgia prisons for a rape he did not commit, two rapes, actually they did not commit. And with him is Drew Findling, who is uh can I say, enigmatic character, famous for his work representing some of the top hip hop artis in the world, and he's also now the president of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers. He got involved in criminal defense work because of Pete's case, but they
never met until today. So this is gonna be a fun ride, and I'm excited to be honest. So Pete, welcome and same to you, Drew. And like I always say, Pete, I'm I'm sorry you're here, but I'm glad you're here. And I want to tell your story because I think it's an important story for a lot of reasons. I guess that at the heart of it is a mistaken witness identification more than one actually, and it's a really important thing for us to talk about because it's so common.
But can you take us back to I mean, this is a long time ago, right, because you were exonerating two thousand seven with the help of the Innocence Project, So this crime goes all the way back to the mid eighties, right, And what were you up to back then? What was your life like? What was going on in in Pete's world? Most of that was working, uh and dropped out of school. Really didn't have much going on other than freedom. How were you I just so you're
twenty three. You got charged with originally one rape right at the time, and let's talk about this awful rape which occurred on April, which is when a woman arrived at her apartment complex parking lot along Roswell Road, just north of Atlanta, got out, but she got out a man approach, pretending that he was looking for someone, but when he got close, he pulled a gun and forced her back into the car, then drove her at gunpoint
to a dead end street where he raped her. Then he drove her back to her apartment complex, and then he left on foot. So the victim then went to the police and the hospital for a rape kit, which means there was a sample of the rapist d N A. And that becomes important later because after all, there was no DNA testing back in anyway. So later on, though, we're gonna get to that. So by now the victim had spent a considerable amount of time with her attacker, and as a result, she was able to help the
police put together a composite sketch. And this attacker had a particular m O too. Can you talk about that, Troup, Yes, So what had happened is Roswell Road is a very long stretch of road in Atlanta. I want to say it goes north and south, but I'm terrible with things
like that. But the real rapist was trolling up and down Russell Road, and he would go to women and they I think they would kind of be in their twenties and they had like blond on and on here, and he would say the same like have you seen and I used to know the name Carol, Carol, have
you seen Carol? And then he'd take him in the car. Right. So, five days after the first rape, on April ten, nearly the same thing occurred along Roswell Road, although this ended up being an attempted rape, but still the same, Hey, do you know Carol? And where's Carol? Except the second victim when he tried to get her to take off her clothes. I don't know how, but she was able to talk him out of raping her. She went to
the police. They hear this similar m O from just five days before, and they show her the composite sketch and she agreed that this sketch resembled her would be rapist. So, Pete, you've got nothing to do with this. You have nothing to do this. But you lived in the area, So can you tell us how you were dragged into this when you and two friends got pulled over on Roswell Road one night. I was run up on Roswell And and it was starting my car. It was I I
was passing on the car. So there was a compositive kids going around in that area. So the way that they arrested me, they told that I gave them false information. That's just to get me there and get my photographed, my picture to show the witness because I gave them information while I was staying everything adequate? Are you gave them accurate information? And they said yeah, they said it was false. So you know, I can all get to police.
So so you're stopped by the police. They have this composite sketch in the back of their minds and they come up with a reason. They said that you gave them false information, which wasn't true, but they wanted an excuse to get your photograph to share with these two women because they thought that you looked enough like the sketch,
so they arrested you. Then what I was there for a while where I was there maybe about four or five hours, but it was a relive cheap bomb, you know, so I was bowing out then three to four hours after I was arrested, and two weeks later I was told was rape aglobator. So in Acobato solomy, and I was arristed, and I didn't know what they were talking about. Had you even heard about these? I didn't have a snighters ideal. They said it was compositive circle of rapers
are in that area, and I resembled it. Now did that sketch actually resemble you? Yeah? Actually right? So so you resembled the sketch, So that was there. I didn't you know, I didn't. I hadn't right anybody. I just resembled it. In positive case, the sketch resembled you. And then I'm presuming you were identified as well in the lineup on in court. Oh, it was a line up, and I was identifying during the trial as well. And when we know that I witness miss identification is the
leading cause of wrongful convictions. And and look, I'm just not the biggest believer in the composite sketch because the composite sketch becomes the perpetrator, not the perpetrator, And so it just happened to have favored him, and then it's the composite sketch and anybody that looks like them that replaces who the actual perpetrator is. So I'm just not a believer in the whole composite sketch thing. I just don't like where they lead, as in convictions of innocent
people in cases like this. So the charges were rape, aggravated assault, and aggravated sodomy and drew. This is where you first entered the picture. He became aware of Pete's case, and this is at his trial where you were just a young man just out of law school pretty much right at the time. I was years old. I was fresh out of law school, and I was an assistant public defender assigned to Mr Williams courtroom where his case
took place. And you know, I made it my my practice then that was just watched every case I could and I just gobbled it up, and I loved my job as a public defender. And I just happened to watch his case and then really started learning about it and I watched the trial. So what had happened is Roswell Road is a very long stretch of road in Atlanta. But at some point along the road, um it is the city of Atlanta, and then it's no longer the
city of Atlanta. Well, the real rapist because it wasn't Mr Williams anybody that watched the trial would realize that because I watched the trial and I'll talk about that later, and it was obviously was innocent. So Jason, here's the crazy thing. One jurisdiction handling it was City of Atlanta police. On the other part of the road was Fulton County Police. To this day, I don't know if anybody's looked into
did they ever talk to one another? And in fact, if you remember, on the City of Atlanta side, the City of Atlanta police called the person the Roswell Road rapist. But yet on the other side of the sign was this case involving Mr Williams, and apparently he got arrested, and then eventually they arrested the other guy who I think pled out. Your case was on the ninth floor. His case was on the seventh floor. Yeah, yeah, he
was on seven. You're right, yeah, um, And he pled out during his trial and I went and watched his also, because the Public Defender's office did that case. How how far apart were the I can't remember the dates. They weren't too far apart, but I watched his and I read up on his and I was like, well, this guy did it, and it was astonishing. And let's go back to the pattern, right, because for whatever reason, the
attacker always did the same damn thing. He maybe he thought that this was an effective way of him grabbing these women, was by asking about this other woman, Carol or Carolyn. Why he was fixated on that, Yeah, but that was his thing. And he also had this car that broke down a lot, because a number of the women reported that. And what's crazy is that after Pete was arrested, and three more attacks happened with the same damn m O right, with exactly the same pattern, the
exact same pattern. And in fact, this man was responsible clearly for all five attacks, but he only face charges related to those three, And so the other two attacks were penned on you Pete and this other guy, Kenth Wicker. He finally got caught because his last victim heroically was able to take down her attacker's license plate number. And it turned out that Wicker lived right along Roswell Road
where all of these attacks were taking place. So it would seem obvious to the casual observer that the d A would hear about these other cases and this other arrest and immediately stopped focusing on you, Pete, but that's not what happened. And later all of this was brought up in your appeals, and I'm talking as early as six but the he a just didn't care about it then or while he was prosecuting you in the first place.
So Jason and Pete and I we just met downstairs and we immediately engaged in a conversation about what I'm about to bring up which has bothered him to this day. And I'm gonna tell it to you. And that is our system right relies on ethical prosecutors. Unfortunately, for Pete Williams, his prosecutor turned out to be not so ethical. Um, as we know from several things, including the fact that he's serving a life sentence in his own murder case
right now. The prosecutor the prosecutor plot twist, yes, I mean, and was also eventually charged not only with that murder, which he was found guilty of, but being the lawyer for a drug operation when he was in private practice. So not the best guy in the world. And and I bring that up only because you would fathom that a decent, ethical prosecutor, which there are many about there, would have realized as having been the lead secutor Mr. Williams case and said, oh, we got problems. Um, And
that never happened. He never had the ethics of a prosecutor that realized what you just said and wanted to put an end to his illegal incarceration. It just didn't happen. And um, there was a real breakdown. Yeah, I'm still trying to process this. Um, this is a story. I've heard a lot of stories, and you know, doing this since the early nineties. The irony is Pete said to me outside we agreed. How come that didn't become the biggest part of the story of Pete Williams illegal conviction
and incarceration. As he said, I was serving my sentence and my prosecutor was serving his sense at the exact same time. Oh so he went to prison while you were in not the same prison, same prism, but he went during my inceration. Did you know that? At the time, Yeah, I thought Jason was one of the biggest cases in the history of Atlantic Yeah. I can't even think in my thirty plus years of practice of a federal case
that they changed venue. It was such a big case, but they actually had to change venue to Birmingham and his federal case his murder case. They changed venue as well and did it somewhere in the woods on a rural George or somewhere, but actually moved his federal case to Birmingham because they just couldn't get a jury in Atlanta. Fred Tokar's name. It was one of the biggest cases
in the history of Atlanta. So I took a second to look up Fred tokers and what I found out was batshit crazy, crazier than what Pete and Drew had said.
This Georgia prosecutor went on to become a private attorney to some big time drug dealers, but besides representative, he was also helping them hide their money in nightclubs, and eventually his wife, Sarah threatened to blow the whistle on his illegal and the various activities, but instead of turning his life around, he plotted to have her kid apt and killed in front of their four and six year old boys, Rickey and Mike. I mean, what the actual fuck.
He was convicted of racketeering in and eventually also convicted for Sarah's murder, receiving a life sentence without the possibility of parole. He was held in secret custody as a marked man insist this interview is recording despite his more treacherous than usual situation in prison. Fred Poker's died in May in a Pennsylvania prison hospital due to complications related to a neurological disorder. And that was the prosecutor that
put Mr Williams away. So, I mean, it's just an unbelievable twist of fate, right that the guy who was responsible for ruining your life ends up. The Pacers Foundation is a proud supporter of this episode and of the Last Mile organization, which provides business and tech training to help incarcerated individuals successfully and permanently re enter the workforce.
The Pacers Foundation is committed to improving the lives of Hoosiers across Indiana, supporting organizations dedicated primarily to helping young people and students. For more information on the work of the Pacers Foundation or the Last Mile Program, visit Pacers Foundation dot org or the Last Mile dot org. This episode is sponsored by a i G, a leading global insurance company, and Paul Weiss Rifkin, Wharton and Garrison, a
leading international law firm. The A i G Pro Bono program provides free legal services and other support to many nonprofit organizations and individuals most in need, and recently they announced that working to reform the criminal justice system will
become a key pillar of the program's mission. Paul Weiss has long had an unwavering commitment to providing impactful, pro bono legal assistance to the most vulnerable members of our society and in support of the public interest, including extensive work in the criminal justice area. You end up getting sentenced to basically a life sentence, forty five years of
life and you were twenty four at the time. Yeah, so life And of course what if the life really means life because ultimately it would be six or eight years old and they would be asking you to lead guilty. Yeah. And and the way they had masons online up fifteen team and twinn do the fifteen? I want to do the fifteen? Do the team? Or visit in do twinter? It was consecutive sentences. So how did you deal with this? I mean, you're behind bars, convicted rapists, looking at spending
your the rest of your life there? How did you find the strength to e and continue on and ultimately contact and reach out and get this incredible team behind you that led to your exhoneration and you know, vindication mm hmmm. When my first teen year of prison, man I was stayed in the whole segregation, I fought all the time into born names because I felt like that wasn't no hope, so I might as well be part of the prison, you know. And I met this guy
aufter ten years. It's on gospel. He always went to church and he would always happen, you know, and he had more time and that. Yeah, but I like Smerson, but he's never showed it. He never showed her. And I want to know why, you know why I wasn't about he said the church man, I say that gospel. It makes me feel better. So I used to go out and saying it first because I really didn't know it the gospel, you know what I mean. But once I got to going and listen to gospel on a
few gospel songs, and I started liking it. And not to ain't pulled a quiet for about five years. And that's where a guy was in there. He had a book loot concerning Amazon products. So I got it and I started writing them and told him that it was I had some more evidence. Was this Georgia insence Project of New York and George and Georgia. Yeah, and they got concerned to what kind of epidence you? So I was writing them and I told him, and some way
they got a hold of it. They said they had destroyed it here and eighty seven and they said they destroyed all that. But cliff some way, Clifford told to some at the GB I be on some female and see allowed him back there and lo and behold, that
was my own evidence. And the evidence at the Georgia Bureau of Investigation that Pete is referring to is the real rapist DNA sample from the rape kit, and they were finally able to test it to not only exclude Pete, but they also tested against the DNA of the man who had pleaded guilty to those other rapes that had happened during the same time period along Roswell, and sure enough, Bingo,
it's him. But of course, this incredible revelation did not come without roadblocks and even being told that the evidence was destroyed, which we hear a lot when fighting cases like these. And Drew, let's let's go back to you on this. It's it's I mean, it's just nuts that we don't have a nationwide standard from maintaining evidence. In fact, practices are different all over. Some are good and some are, like, let's face it, like a third world country. There's really
no national consistency. And and so you know when you say earlier, which I completely agree with, that we probably have well over a hundred thousand innocent people in our in our prison systems, and and that's probably a low number. We think about if we had consistency in the preservation of evidence, what would we'd be able to do. It's really going to require a coordinated effort. But it's the only right thing to do. There's just absolutely no argument
against it. There's nothing bad about preserving evidence. Well, there's there's nothing bad about preserving evidence. But then you hear about the Georgia Innocence Project. I went down to to make in on behalf of them and argued about just having somebody's testing done, and prosecutors objected to testing being done. Why would you ever object to testing being done? Why would you ever object to being able to check off the list? The possibility that somebody innocent is in jail
for many years, if not their life. And it's that same type of flawed logic um that would have some say, well, we don't need to take up the room, we don't need to do the logistics aren't there for storage. You could just fathom the arguments that are coming with, you know, because prosecutors want to believe in law enforcement, want to believe that once they have a conviction, it's the right conviction, and so you're gonna always deal with that sentiment, which
is wrong. That's the sentiment. It's the same sentiment that dictates around the country when good folks are are are fighting a half of the innocent project to have testing done and they're in courtrooms at the podium facing prosecutors that don't want testing to be done. To me, why would you want to destroy person well and identify the actual perpetrator like it does, I don't even know what
to think of that. Thank god they hadn't actually destroyed the evidence from your case, because they actually exculpated you and it ended up causing you to be released from prison on January two thousand seven, and subsequently it matched up to Kenneth Wicker, who had already pleaded guilty all those years ago. He was then arrested on February nine, two thousand seven for the April fifth and tenth incidents.
Then four days later you were granted a new trial on February and the d A subsequently dropped all charges, but all the charges, you know, they took the rape and everything away from my So you were in court when all the charges were actually dropped. And what was that like? How? Who was there? A lot of family? Was it at my family? My family? And there was a lot of people it was happy for me, you know, even people I didn't know, you know, like even the polices.
And as a matter of fact, one of the polices that was you just take me back and forth the coot and she came down and said, I always knew you was innocent. Wow. How did that feel? One one? And it's worth noting that in about and this is project cases that where DNA has has exculpated an exonerate led the exoneration of an innocent person, it has also led to the identification of the guilty person. That's absolutely right. And in those cases, of course, um that person has
gone on to have committed other heinous crimes. When you lock up the wrong person, you stop looking for the right person, and then that person that's out there is most likely going to go and do what they did again. It's just a practical issue of we should all want to clean up these systems as best we can so that our ourselves and our families are safe. I mean, well, you know, look, Jason, I think it's it's symptomatic of a larger issue. It's a symptomatic of our of our
problem with mass incarceration of this country. I think it's UM all that is really tied in UM. We don't as defense attorneys and accused citizens, you know, we don't control the fact that UM as you well know, we represent five percent of the world's population, but closing of the world incarcerated population, we don't dictate that. And I don't want this to be a session where I'm, you know, kind of talking about prosecutors, but they control so much.
Pete's case is emblematic of the problem. You had a prosecutor what an antisocial disorder that went on to be involved in a murder himself. And as a as a twenty five year old, fresh out of law school kid, I watched what I thought was an unethical prosecution, and I watched a man lose his freedom because to this prosecutor, it was a game. It wasn't about justice. And that's why Pete, I made a decision that I was gonna spend the rest of my life defending people because of
your case. It was just a job. At that point. I didn't know anything about a public defender. I never even met a lawyer until my first law school class. I have humble beginnings, but your your case dictated to me what I wanted to spend the rest of my
life doing. I watched that prosecutor game the system. It was just a game to him, and and unfortunately, the power that being a prosecutor brings is often results in misguided prosecutions because they have the ability, if they handle ethically, to make sure to the best of their ability, that just doesn't happen, to make sure that evidence is preserved, to make sure that there is proper identification procedures, and they have the ability to be that wall that lasts
wall of justice to say, you know, I don't I don't need a motion to suppress identification because as the prosecutor, I don't like the way this went down. We talk so much about ourselves as defense attorneys and what our job is but we need to be spending a lot of time looking at the other side of the courtroom. And I get that there's integrity units closing up, but it needs to be a lot greater than that. It needs to be a lot better than just every once
in a while a progressive prosecutor running for office. It needs to be all over the country because he has the benefit of this happening in Atlanta, But when we go to the rural South, the smaller communities in Mississippi and Alabama and Tennessee, sadly, there's a lot of of Pete Williams that are serving life sentences um for from prosecutors that were as misguided and as corrupt as the one in his case. And that's why it's so important for people to get out and vote in prosecutor racist
because most people don't. The number of people that vote in these races is so small that if you don't think your vote makes a difference, it does. I mean, we've seen races that ended up in a dead heat, like tied. You know, like your vote is important, and if you're on of those people thinks so I'm not gonna vote in the presidential election, it doesn't matter. Yes,
it does. It matters in the presidentialism, but it ladd is a lot more and your local elections where your your d A is running um and you know, and electing a a progressive prosecutor, which that's not even the right word, A fair prosecutor could affect your life as well, because this could happen to you, could happen to Pete, It could happen to anybody. We see it over and
over again on this show. And then let's even talk about it from a purely fiscal level, you know, for any conservatives that are listening, When we think about the amount of money that the taxpayers of Georgia paid well upwards of a million dollars, probably closer to two million dollars to keep Pete lock up, and then any other income that he would have been able to earn and pay taxes on, and you know, all the rest of
the stuff. That's a pretty big thing too. I just learned the other day on a tangential note, that we spend forty million dollars a day in America on pre trial detention, right just because people can't post bail forty million a day to lock people up who haven't been convicted of anything. That's a day, that's your tax dollars at work, and mind by the way, and whoever's listening, it's nuts. I mean, we lock up more people than
Russia and China combined. Back to your previous point, we locked black people up at six times the rate of South Africa at the height of apartheid. And if you're a woman listening, then you should just process this for a second, because while you know what Drew said is certainly scary and true about us having the world's prison population, we have thirty three of the world's female prison population.
That means one out of every three women in prison in the world is in America, which is such a small country when you look at the vast world that's out there. And the more we can do to get out there and spread the message, and the more you do to get out there and vote and get active and volunteer, go to Georgia Innocence Project a website, you know, learn more. Contact an a c d L. What is it, an a cd L dot org exactly, an a c DL dot org. That's National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers
dot org. So I'm glad you brought up kind of where people fall on the political continuum. You should know that the term just finished and there's a new governor here. But our last governor, Nathan Deal, was a Republican to term Republican, and the National Associational Criminal Defense Lawyers gave him a Champion I gave him a Champion of Justice Award for his work on criminal justice reform. And so you hit on it no matter where you are, left wing,
right wing, no wing. We are at a period of time right now where people are really focusing on criminal justice reform. And I think that you bring up all the numbers, they're they're startling and it can impact anybody, you know, whether it's the fact that our prison systems are warehousing the mentally ill and adult autistic population. UM.
There's so many things that attract people. UM. The National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers UM, we as you know, we have our foundation for criminal justice and we really embrace non lawyers to be part of it. Our long term goal is to get non lawyers into our leadership track. UM. Let them be trustees. We need people to reach out to us because we just want everyday citizens to be involved.
Come to our meetings and Jason's right. There may not be an election that may impact your life more than who your local district attorney is. Have them answer to your questions. Folks need to take these stories to heart, and which is why this podcast is so important. They need to understand that not everybody is going to be blessed with the opportunity to connect up with the innocence projects. So listen to podcasts like this and get involved the
most of you can. UM. And that is once again in a CDL dot org National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers. Now we have this tradition at Wrongful Conviction, which is my favorite part of the show, which is where I get to just sit back and listen and uh, I leave the microphones on for you guys for any closing thoughts that you want to share. And because Pete is the honored guest here, not that you're not, but you know he's the star of the show, I'm gonna let
him go last, and so drew any parting shots. Pete. I just want to uh, I wish you the best and let let you know that the tragedy occurred to you, UM influence the course of my existence. So my family, all my clients. I want to hug you, Pete. I'm glad you broadcast to let people know that things like this actually happen. People do go to jail wrong from they're convicted, and I'm just glad you all been the
pubment know that these things actually happen. Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project and I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank
our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wardis. The music on the show is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and associate was Signal Company number one