#138 Jason Flom with Tim Howard

eight caliber bullet. When police want to tell Brian's wife, Shannon the bad news, they found her lifeless body in a closet under a mattress. The couple's seven month old boy, Trevor, was zipped into a duffel bag with an electrical cord wrapped around his neck, miraculously still alive. Tim knew about the drug deal Brian had coordinated that must have gone bad, so he understandably fled town, as did ten other people

in Ashdown's underworld. Despite many obvious leads for the investigation, including aggressive characters seen making threats against Brian and Shannon. Just days before the murders, police heared in on their

only black friend Tim Howard and his flighty behavior. With no physical evidence whatsoever connecting Tim to the crime that couldn't be explained away by his close friendship with the days, the state conjured up a motive completely based in fantasy, stirring up a visceral response from the jury that, along with a clear Brady violation, would send Tim Howard to death row. This is Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flom. Welcome

back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam. That's me. I'm your host, and today I'm extremely excited to have to amazing, amazing guests, both heroes of mine, John Harden, who is private investigator and the co founder and director of Proclaim just As, an organization on whose board I proudly serve, and he is as a background in public affairs and political consulting, and he was a tremendous advocate for the West Memphis Three. So John, Welcome to Wrongful Conviction. Thanks Jason,

thanks for having me. And today the star of our show is Tim Howard. Tim was wrongfully convicted in not exonerated but parole on December two thousand seventeen. As I always say, I'm sorry you're here, but I'm happy you're here, so welcome to wrongful conviction and thanks for sharing your story. Thank you for having me. Yeah, and Tim, this case came with instructions, none of the signs pointed to you, and yet you ended up serving twenty years. So um,

getting right into it. So this is December. An anonymous caller notified the Little River County Sheriff's office that blood was dripping from a U haul rental truck parked on property owned by the family of Tim Howard on a farm in southwest Arkansas and a little town called Ogden, population one s right. And when deputies arrived on the scene and they cracked the tracks padlock, they found Brian Day's body inside. He had been severely beaten and shot

with a thirty eight caliber bullet. When they went to the Day's home to give his wife, Shannon the bad news, things got a lot worse. Her lifeless body was found slumped in a closet under a mattress, and the couple's seven month old child, the baby, Trevor Day, was found And this is I can't it's hard to even say. This was found in a zip duffel bag with an electrical cord tied around his neck, but by some miracle,

he was alive. And then things get really weird because four days later, Timothy Leamont Howard, who's right here on the show with us now, was arrested and charged with the murders of the days as well as the attempted murder of their son Trevor. And this is where I gotta start scratching my head and go Tim, I mean, or John whoever wants to take this. What evidence did they have to connect you to these murders? What was

starting out? Nothing? I mean, uh, they said it was my behavior, but I guess I did the same thing other people don't. When we find out what had happened, we all kind of fled and waited for the dust to settle, because you know, we were all in illegal activities and our little circle so to speak. Now, don't get me wrong, I understand why they considered me a suspect because me and Brown were close with best friends,

and we were getting that night on and all. But when it got down to evidence gathering, it was just all circumstantial and they just reigned with it. They quit looking. And you guys were involved with drugs, but did you have a violent history or past. No, no, no, I've been in the jail for speed and taking my whole life. I don't have any ask for any kind of balance that I was a happy, god looking kind of guy. I mean, at best you could say I was a

drug user, womanizer and that type thing. But no violence in my history at all. Right, And this is a brutally violent crime. I mean, this is not something that somebody just flies off the handle and goes and murders the whole family. It is a miracle that the little boy was alive. And John, I mean I want to turn to you for a second, because the victim himself, he was involved in some really shady stuff. There were reasons for people to want to kill him. Can you

talk about that. Yeah, So Brian was involved in drug dealing, and we were able to uncover a lot of things in our investigation that really suggested that he owed a lot of money, big money to maybe some not good characters. And that is a much more likely scenario given the nature of the crime, that it was something related to him owing money to sort of hire in drug dealers.

And there's a couple of possibilities as to you know, who actually did the crime well, And let's talk about this, right, because two weeks before the murders, Brian was arrested alongside another dealer's name was Mike May, and it was rumored that Brian may have avoided jail time by snitching. Right, we know how people react to that. In the underworld.

There were also witnesses who had witnessed violent and quote unquote unpleasant individuals arguing with the Days about money in the week leading up to the murders, and just days before the murders, Shannon Day was heard saying that if anything happened to her or Brian, of course Shanton was his wife, it would be Kenny chicken Fields, who was

one of Brian's main suppliers, who would be responsible. But authorities somehow managed to overlook all of these potential suspects and they zeroed in on the Day's only black friend, Tim Howard. Now you know, it's hard not to say that there may have been some inherent bias towards him because he is a person of color in a place that was not very racially diverse. But what's interesting is, Tim, you were so close to them, and they made a

big deal out of this. Because of course, some of your biological evidence was in their house because he was your best friend, right. And when I say he was your best friend to the extent that you actually accompanied his wife to the hospital when she went to labor, right, and he was out scoring meth and you took her to the hospital, I mean that that's a pretty close friend. I don't know who you know who would do a

thing like that other than somebody's best friend. So, Tim, they had what they considered to be evidence, um, which was your fingerprints on a mountain dew bottle found inside the home of the victims, and also your fingerprints in or on the truck. But that's easily understandable and easily explained by the fact that you were literally best friends, and you were in and out of the house all the time. Yes, I mean we we at one point we actually right across the street from each other. I Mean.

The thing about it was when they said biological evidence in the house, head, they look, I have clothes in the closet, shoes, you know, because I'm eating and out. He's the same thing at my house. He had closed at my house. I mean, so naturally it would have been odd not to find my fingerprints, do anythink else

around the house. And meanwhile, your defense argued, which would seem to be a good argument, basically what we had said before, which was that Brian was heavily in debt and was killed by drug dealers who were tired of his Shenanigan's right. I mean, that's you know, that would seem to be a valid theory. But meanwhile, the prosecution

they theorized, and they advanced the theory. Actually, I should say, they accused you of killing them in a quote unquote meth induced rage, right, because they said you wanted money. And then this is where it gets to be ridiculous, right, is that their theory was that you had been upset after hearing that Shannon might have been pregnant with your baby.

Even though and I know this might be a sensitive topic, but even though you were sterile, right, it was known that you were sterile because you had found out a couple of years earlier. I knew for several years before that that I couldn't have kids, and my wife at the time had ride, so we went to a doctor to found out why. End up. The sad part about it is, but when they put that theory forward to

the jury. They knew it wasn't true because it was in the notes when the medical examiner called him and said, look, she just finished her minstrel um. You know that she was absolutely not pregnant. But they still advanced that three because it did inflame the jury. But as far as other drug dealers there in Ashdown that he owed money too.

Like the Kenny chicken Fields. The town was so small to where everybody grew up together and they went to school together, and you know they their friends have been around there forever. And uh, when you get locked up in a place like them, they have a capital trial, they give you two lawyers. You gotta take a local council and they give you one out a little rock.

My attorney out a little rock was Matt Carter at the time, great attorney, you know, just Overwham with this case, and he had a ton of educations at the same time. But my local council, when Mac brought up the name Kenny chicken Fields, the first thing my local attorney says, oh, well, you know he wouldn't do anything like this, and this is a out is supposed to be on my side, you know. So at that particular time, I had thought, you know, he's telling this other side everything that we're

doing now. I mean, if he you're gonna defend somebody that you don't even investigated it because you grew up with him, I mean, I don't stand a chance here. But then there's another thing which is actually kind of weird, which is this whole thing with the work boots that were found like two miles from the crime scene. Can one of you guys explain that whole aspect of this. I can explain it to a point. Okay. When when we went to get this U haul truck, I was to take it to my house, so I use it

like a vehicle. I had boots sitting in the floor along with a bag and several other objects as I drove around town and left it in there because the truck was going to be with Brian Um. When they found these boots there down at the bottom of a ravine a couple of miles from the crime scene, there's blood on these boots, so they tested them. They found what they called at the time Michael conjugal DNA that said that it was mine. But there were also other

hairs in this boot to match nobody. It didn't match me, it didn't match Brian or any of the girls that were with me at the time, and that they had no idea who it was. But the prosecutor's idea was, I drove by this ravine in such a panic and I just throw them out the window, and you know it's two or three d feet down to this place. They said I was trying to hit the water. There's alluded it that this is where the murder weapon is, which they never found. But the way they're explained, there

are actual feet print leading from the boots. Somebody put them there. Why we don't know. At best, you can say somebody used them to do the murder in or put them on after two, do whatever so they wouldn't get bled on their shoes. But they put my ex wife off there testifying yes, I bought him these boots back during this time, and we offered him all my clothes that I was wearing that night. They wouldn't take. They never took because they said the person should have

been a bloody mess. You also had this ridiculous forensic quote unquote scientists. This would be laughable if it wasn't so serious. But and this really didn't come up till later, right, because in two thousand and eleven, and I want to get back to the trial, but when the handwritten notes came out from the DNA technician who had testified to

your trial. The notes printed on the lab reports, which were over of course of three months back when you're on trial, contained phrases such as CAP had flipped open while spinning source of the problem, GEL did not run properly, inadvertently erased, and of course random spurious contaminants. It's ridiculous. And the real kicker is, you know, the prosecution had those notes from the lab technician and they withheld them

from time's defense teams. So that's ultimately how we got his conviction overturned was discovering that that Brady violation, that was evidence that the state should have disclosed and turned over, and they did not, and and we had to go back in and find that, find those notes, and that's

really what led to the conviction being overturned. Listening to this story, it has now occurred to me that they used the DNA testing to prove that those were your boots, then they find and ignore another contributor of the boots that is not you, Brian or anyone in your immediate circle, but likely the actual killer's DNA. I mean, they had the freakently that they needed to get the real killer.

And the irony of the whole situation is that if they weren't so damn incompetent and shady in their attempt to get a conviction, you would be dead right now. Yeah, did you know at the time you were facing I possible death sentence. I had no idea that it was gonna go as far as it did, And even when they formally arrested me, still I thought, Okay, I'll get out on bun and we'll figure it out up until I met Matt Carter and he told me, is hey, you're facing the death penalty. I mean, I was just

I was floored. As the trial unwound, you had this one attorney who was basically, uh, not only not doing a great job for you, but was almost serving as an adjunct prosecutor, and you had evidence being withheld. There was a lot of dirty tricks going on. You knew you were innocent, but when the jury went out, how long did they deliberate for? It was a very long but one of the things about that is. Don't don't

get me wrong, I wasn't angels start with. I was, like I said, a womanager, a thief, and a drug usual, but I wasn't a killer. But as far as a trial, it the only lasted like three days. So while they were out deliberating, the sheriff and his deputies came up and said, Okay, here's what we're gonna do. When they give the verdict. We're gonna take you and your family through this tunnel and we're gonna put you all in the car so nobody has to see. Y'll, we're gonna leave.

Even he didn't think I was getting convicted, they were making an escape plan. Then now Jerry came back and said guilty. One of the deputies that when I first got locked up, that made him couldn't stand it. You we had become the best of friends. He broke down the start crying. He just couldn't believe it. I was in shock because I just like they proved nothing with all that they went through. As far as how you feel, you just kind of numb because it all goes so quickly.

Because after the verdict, they give the verdict, they whisk you out. That night and take you straight to death, throw you know, the very next morning. Well, well, I just want to go back for a second, because we can't skim over a gloss over the thing about the sheriff. So the sheriff was an adversary of yours, if I understand you correctly, when you first went in there, and by the time the trial came around, he was so

convinced of your innocence. He was preparing to put you through the back tunnel with your family, and he was active. He actually, I mean you're saying, he cried when the verdict was read. Yes, when I first got locked up, As a matter of fact, when Danny Russell became sure if I was his first call out, I was at a motel with a particular young lady. Her sister, who I was leaving at the time, came down and set

my clothes on fire outside of the hotel room. And Danny came down on the first call and he said, man, what did you do? And he talked to me and talked written we kind of you know, laughed about it, and went on. He he arrested her, but he said I'll let it go if you call him mom to come get her. But when he arrested me for this years later, this girl was my girlfriend at the time still and we got married in his jail. But he got to know me the first three months and jailed.

You know how phone calls and gets expensive in there. He allowed my family to buy a phone card while could coming up every night and called my children, and the guard who I told you I couldn't stand at the time, his name was, was Mike. We became the best friend. He would get stuff with my daughter for the prom I mean, pay for her dress itself. When my kids coming to business, he made a special deal when they could come back there and see me in their office. I mean, so, I guess I'm sent it

to say this. Yes, I had a tough ordeal in the jail, but as I got to know the people stay there all that time, it was it's hard not to get attached to each other when they see who you really are. I guess what you could say, Well, that speaks to your character as well. But it's interesting to know that that type of friendship developed, and moreover, that the sheriff himself became so convinced of your innocence. John.

In this case, how could the jury have gotten it's so wrong that even the sheriff, who you know, went into this obviously with a preconceived notion that Tim was guilty. How could they have gotten this so wrong? Well, you know, I think there's a few things that play here. And you know, me being a Native arkans and um, I can speak to some of the racial components in the whole state and Little River County ashdown Agen. Listen, the

game was rigged to start with um. At Tim's first trial and his second trial these years later, it was still a thing of you know, Tim being a black man dates white women, dresses more, you know, like a cowboy boots hat, you know, cowboy hat, the whole nine yards. I mean, it was the juries of both trials were picked and designed to have that prejudice, and I think that went a long ways to convicting Tim. It was

heavy on emotions. I mean, when you got you know, husband and wife who who are brutally killed, but then you've got you know, a seven month old child. It was just a very emotional trial, both of them. Well, and you got the prosecutor who in his closing arguments saying stuff like the last thing, this mother's scene was him stand there and her baby hanging by a cord, her last I mean, who would not be in rage? Right, So it was it was so heavy on the emotional

side rather than the evidence side. Then we did have this racial component that went with it. And you know Jasons, as you know, I mean, jury is just sometimes they can't sniff it all out. And this is one of those times where I think they were so emotional about the tragedy, particularly for for Trevor, that they couldn't see beyond it. So, Tim, you're convicted taking to death row the next day, and can you explain what death row

was like? It is a lot of people say, well, go in your bathroom and ship to do it and you find out what it's like. You can in a sense. But the difference is you won't get the feeling of death row because you can open your bathroom do it anytime. There are people down there who were there when I first got there. There are not the same people now before I left. They've lost their mind. It's crazy to me that everybody doesn't lose their mind in that scenario,

and including you. I mean, it's it's it's remarkable the human spirit. And I hear it in your voice. Um, it's it's unbelievable. But I want to make one thing perfectly clear. I didn't do this by myself. I had a great support team. I mean, you get letters when you go to death Row all the time from different people, and of course most of the curiosity seekres so they don't last very long. But I got a letter from a lady name in the Basett who is now married

to Morrow Leverett. But I now called this woman my mother. She sent me a letter and she says, here's twenty five dollars. She was running the thing called a court bullet from at the time. If you want to write back, here's some money for stamps. Uh. If you don't, here's a money for commissary or whatever. Just know somebody's at here thinking about you. I started writing to her and we started a penpow relationship type thing then. And she's a great teacher and a great person to talk to.

But she never wrote a person in her life. The only reason I feel like I'm saying now is because of the people who stepped in once I got there, when they heard what we're going on. And I got that the first four to three decisions on my direct appeal that ever happened. So, Tim, can you take us

through how the appeals process work? Okay, when you first get the death row, you have what you call a direct appeal, and it happens within the first year that you're there, and usually it is rubber stamp and it's usually seven zero six to one or something like that. My first attorn under's name was Janice Vom. She was a civil attorney retired now. Unbeknowns Shim at the time, that was the best thing that would happened to me

because this woman is meticulous with her research. She's the first one that found these notes and put them in my direct appeal. She put it everything in the kitchen sink, and it comes back with its four three decision. Morow lebrit came in, she wrote an article and people start paying attention because of there's never been a four three

decision in the death row case ever. My whole process takes off from there, and John and Proclaimed got involved, and it was just I can't tell you all things they did because I wasn't there, but I know they worked a lot of hours going here and going there and interviewing this with inter of your net witness, and it was it takes more than two people, it takes more than three people. I mean, it's a whole village

that's gotta do this. So, you know, we got involved early on through Mara uh Mara and her wife Linda that Tim was referring to. She Maura called me and said, John, listen, you and Jason are just starting this organization and this is the first case out of the gate. And so we immediately started reviewing. When when Maura Leverett asked me to review something, I reviewed something, you know, and Tim's right.

We we did a lot of investigation. So, John, what was the key that led to Tim being granted the second trial that ultimately turned out to be so consequential. Yeah, The biggest thing that we turned up that really led to this new trial was it was a direct Brady violation from the state. We had these handwritten notes from the DNA technician where she put in there that the samples were contaminated and that was not disclosed to Tim's

defense team. So one we discovered that that was really the smoking guns, so to speak, that that led to the new trial. Genesis Telli me, this whole time, Tim you're eventually gonna get a new trial. You just gotta we just gotta find you the write lawyer. So that was around two thousand and eleven when you found out about the Brady violation and found a petition with the Arkansas Supreme Court. Then sometime around two thousand thirteen, Patrick Banker,

I started representing Tim. If you're gonna have one lawyer in Arkansas, in the whole state that you want on a case like this, is Patrick Banker Tomorrow. And I talked to Patrick, and he took the case and and uh, you know, we were able to help him investigate the case and and give a lot of support. You know, Patrick Banker at the time did a hell of a

lot of work. And um sitting in the court. We came for him, and there's nobody in the courtroom but the prosecutor, me and my lawyers and uh, you know, a few family members. The judge at the time. He's sitting and he's reading off this stuff about this article, about these cal something about that, and he says as much as it pains me, and and I look up and I'm like, what's he fixing to say? And he kind of goes along those lines, and he's fixing to

do something he really don't want to do. And he says, well, we're gonna have to give us to how the new trial and I about fell over. I did not believe what he had just said. And it went from there and my second trial, like I said, and it was a whole lot different from the first. It was like watching a lawyer on TV. I mean, he was extremely thorough. If there was a blood expert up there, you thought he was a blood expert. If there was a gun expert there, you thought Patrick was a gun expert. And

he wasn't the only one there. There was elated from the public, Findish commnstion Nam, Kate Street, excellent job, and they went through each witness against me one by one and discredited him. At his second trial, he was charged with three capital crimes, three first degree crimes, three second

degree crimes. And after a two and a half week trial, the jury got the case the friday night of Mother's Day weekend or Father mother Day, Other's Day weekend, the friday night of Mother's Day weekend, and we had some indication from jury questions that there's probably going to be

a compromised verdict. And sure enough, that's what happened. So about midnight on Friday night, after a two and a half week trial, Uh, they came down and acquitted him of all the first degree charges, acquitted him of all the capital charges, convicted him of second degree charges, with the idea that his sentence would amount to time served. And so that was the compromise that the jury had reached after this long ordeal on this holiday weekend. And

we've confirmed that with jurors you know who. We're supportive of Tim after that verdict, who was sending him money in all kinds of things. So Tim is actually not exonerated. It's one of these imperfect situations, Jason, that we know so much about, where he's off a death throw. He's a free man. He's sitting here with us right now. But it's an imperfect solution and I want it known to it. They gave me that. I didn't accept anything.

I'm still telling everybody I'm innocent. It wasn't one of those things where Okay, we got this deal, here's what you gotta take. This is what they came up with, and they asked specific questions. They even signed a piece of paper saying we expect for him to go back to prison, to get in number and be let out within two weeks. This is what we agreed to, which, of course that didn't happen. I had to spend another

two years in prison after autumn rigging role. After my conviction, I became friends with a few of the jurors and found out what it was like in that Drew room. You know, it's just the compromise was, Okay, we don't believe you did it, but we believe you know who did. It's not telling us, so you're not, you know, leaving here Scott free. Um. It was a compromise that if

they hadn't made that, they had a hung jury. And the ones who were supporting me thought, if he has to come back, what if he gets another jury that convicts him again all together, you know, everybody against him, So they want to take that chance. And they also didn't want to stay Mother's Day weekend. Yeah it's you know that and that was exactly SI. So they want to go home to the kids. One girl even broke down crowning it, and she she was for me at first.

She changed her mind because she said she was just tired of argument and she wanted to go home to her kids. She was willing to send me to prison because she was tired and real to go home to her kids, not because she believed because she was on my side at first. Yeah, it's just it's just different. Tim.

Ultimately it took until over two years later, December of two thousand and seventeen, Tim Howard was finally granted parole, over twenty years after his wrongful conviction, and released from prison. Uh at home in time for Christmas. Um. With all the villains in this story and all the you know, all the people who either mistreated you, let you down, UM, who turned out to be either corrupt or incompetent or dishonest. Uh, there are a lot of heroes in this story too,

and Patrick certainly one of them. John proclaimed justice people. UM. There are some jurors obviously who stuck by their guns and um, in spite of the pressure I'm sure they felt in the jury room. Uh. They it's clear from hearing exactly what happened that they knew you were innocent and they wanted to do the right thing. But they're probably a couple of people in there that just were refusing and UM, that's not excusable, but it's good to

recognize the people who come out in this story. And even the woman who wrote to you gave you hope. I mean, there's a lot of good from this and you're here as a result of those people. So. Um, So that's actually a good reason to turn to John, because before we get to the the wrap up of the show, John, can you talk about proclaimed justice, because you guys have been doing amazing work. I would say,

you know, uh, batting above your weight or whatever that phrases. Right, um um, there have been quite a few exonerations that have come from the work that you and Jason and your team have done. I've enjoyed dealing with you, both as a member of the board and also as someone who's worked with you on cases. Talk about talk about proclaimed justice and and and if you could tell people how they can get involved, whether it's the simple as sending a check or going to a website, or or

getting involved on a deeper level. Yeah. So, um, we were born out of the West Memphis three case. I was an activist in the West Memphis three case, and once we got those guys out, Jason Baldwin and I talked about starting we wanted to keep that network together of notable people of you know, folks all over the world who had supported that case, and we just had the idea to start this organization and try to keep that notework together to advocate for other victims of rumful convictions.

So we started this after Jason and Damien and Jesse got out of prison, and uh, Tim was our first case, you know, right out of the gate. So yeah, we we are a small organization, but we do good work. I've got great people on my team, great investigators, lawyers in our network. You know. We try to run very efficiently for our clients, and we try purposefully not to take on too many because we're interested in their post

release condition and and the whole thing. So maybe sometimes our resources are spent on making sure their lives are settled once they're out. How people can get involved is go to proclaim Justice dot org and you can read about some of our cases that we're currently working on and how to get involved. These cases are very expensive, they like a long time to work, you know, continued financial support you can donate from the side as well.

Um that goes a long ways. So I would just encourage people to visit our site and and learn how to get involved from there. You know what, Tim can speak to this. A small thing that people can do that just goes so far is writing the people who are in prison for something they didn't do. Um so they can you know, right our clients. They can find the addresses and all that stuff on our website. And I think that a little bit of encouragement goes a long way, and it's something easy for people to do.

So that's proclaimed justice dot Org. I would go a step further to say, even John said right into people who are innocent, I almost say right to people here because the guys it's on death row now, even the ones that are guilty, that they're not the same person that that they were when they got locked up. Some better, something worse. I find the personally, give them some kind of hope. I mean, because there's some really really good

guys are who made a bad decision. I mean, and there's some there's don't got there who I really I consider friends. I mean, if they would get out tomorrow, they they're working with my home. Tim, I'm glad you said what you said, because I I'm going to quote the great Brian Stevenson who said, I believe everyone's better

than the worst thing they've ever done. So that being said, this is a part of our show called Closing Arguments where I get to thank John and Tim for taking time out of their day and sharing their story and their wisdom and experience. And then I get to kick back, turn my microphone off and just listen and let each of you have the final word. John Europe First a Faraway Closing Arguments. One of the great honors of my life in this work is is sitting beside a guy

like Tim Howard. Um. I tell people that, other than maybe my son being born, the best days of my life are when I get to sit beside somebody who we collectively have worked so hard to get out. Uh. It's the most rewarding thing, um. And it's important for people to know that this is just not uncommon unfortunately. I mean, there's a lot of Tim Howard's in the world that are still in there, and uh, you know, we're we're working hard for them. Uh, joined the fight

with us. Every little bit helps and you can follow along with our endeavors. Have proclaimed justice on Twitter and on Instagram. There's always updates with what's going on with Tim and Daniel and other folks that we freed and and other folks that we're working to free. And now over to you Tim for closing arguments. All right, Well, people like proclaim, they don't just drop you when you

get out. They still try to hip you along. I've had a few bumps in the road and they've been there for me, just like Uh and in the beset, my mom and Mara LeVert, Uh, Janice Van Patrick, Pinka, all these people who came into my life, they're still there. And I just want to say thank you to all of those people, everybody that's in my life now. The

people at my job at to support innovations. I have two great bosses, Wade and Gena Racky, who believe in second chances and have been so gracious and when above board to support me as I go through what I'm going through now. Um just I just wanna say thanks and into even the people that I don't know who helped me in different spots in different times. Please just step in and do what you can when you can. And if I can hit me in someone let me know. As far as being on social media, I haven't got

that down pat yet. I mean, I got a Facebook page, but I don't really post on it a lot. And because there's always pushed back on, I'll get pushed back for this interview in some way somehow. But that's cool too. I mean, you nobody's got to believe what I say, but just believe the situation. Don't forget to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project and I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very

important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wardis. The music on the show is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and

on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one