In nineteen ninety seven. Tim Howard and his best friend Brian Day were avid drug users in the small town of Ashdown, Arkansas. Brian dealt drugs to support his habit, and it was no secret that he was in debt to some major players. On December thirteenth, nineteen ninety seven, an anonymous caller notified police that a U haul parked on property owned by Tim Howard's family was dripping blood. When police cracked the padlock, they found Brian Day severely
beaten and shot with a thirty eight caliber bullet. When police went to tell Brian's wife, Shan in the bad news, they found her lifeless body in a closet under a mattress. The couple's seven month old boy, Trevor, was zipped into a duffel bag with an electrical cord wrapped around his neck,
miraculously still alive. Tim knew about the drug deal Brian had coordinated that must have gone bad, so he understandably fled town, as did ten other people in Ashdown's underworld, Despite many obvious leads for the investigation, including aggressive characters seen making threats against Brian and Shannon just days before the murders, police zered in on their only black friend,
Tim Howard and his flighty behavior. With no physical evidence whatsoever connecting Tim to the crime that couldn't be explained away by his close friendship with the Days, the state conjured up a motive completely based in fantasy, stirring up a visceral response from the jury that, along with a clear Brady violation, would send Tim Howard to death row. This is Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flammer. Welcome back to
Wrongful Conviction with Jason flamm that's me. I'm your host, and today I'm extremely excited to have two amazing, amazing guests, both heroes of mine. John Harden, who is a private investigator and the co founder and director of Proclaimed just As, an organization on whose board I proudly serve. And he is as a background in public affairs and political consulting, and he was a tremendous advocate for the West Memphis Three. So John, Welcome to Ronful Conviction.
Thanks Jason, thanks for having me.
And today the star of our show is Tim Howard. Tim was wrongfully convicted in not exonerated, but paroled on December thirteenth of twenty seventeen. As I always say, I'm sorry you're here, but I'm happy you're here. So welcome to wronful conviction. Thanks for sharing your story.
Thank you for having me.
Jason, Yeah, and Tim, this case came with instructions, none of the signs pointed to you, and yet you ended up serving twenty years. So getting right into it. So
this is December thirteenth of nineteen ninety seven. An anonymous caller notified the Little River County Sheriff's office that blood was dripping from a U haul rental truck parked on property owned by the family of Tim Howard on a farm in southwest Arkansas in a little town called Ogden, population one twenty six right And when deputies arrived on the scene and they cracked the track's padlock, they found Brian Day's body inside. He had been severely beaten and
shot with a thirty eight caliber bullet. When they went to the Day's home to give his wife, Shannon, the bad news, things got a lot worse. Her lifeless body was found slumped in a closet under a mattress, and the couple's seven month old child. That baby, Trevor Day, was found and this is I can't it's hard to even say. This was found in a zip duffel bag with an electrical cord tied around his neck, but by
some miracle, he was alive. And then things get really weird because four days later, Timothy Lamont Howard, who's right here on the show with us now, was arrested and charged with the murders of the days as well as the attempted murder of their son Trevor. And this is where I got to start scratching my hat and go, Tim, I mean, or John whoever wants to take this. What evidence did they have to connect you to these murders?
Well?
Starting out nothing, I mean they said it was my behavior, but I guess I did the same thing other people don't. When we find out what had happened, we all kind of fled and waited for the dust to settle, because you know, we were all in illegal activities in our little circle so to speak. Now, don't get me wrong, I understand why they're considered me a suspect because me and Brown were close. We're best friends, and we were
the getter that night on and off. But when it got down to evidence gathering, it was just all circumstantially and they just rain with it.
They quit looking. And you guys were involved with drugs, But did you have a violent history or past?
No, no, no, I've been in a jail for a speeding ticket.
In my whole life.
I don't have any for any kind of vialus that I was a happy, gol lookie kind of guy. I mean, at best you could say I was a drug user, a womanizer and that type thing. But no violence in my history at all.
Right, And this is a brutally violent crime. I mean, this is not something that somebody just flies off the handle and goes and murders a whole family. It is a miracle that the little boy was alive. And John, I mean, I want to turn to you for a second, because the victim himself, he was involved in some really shady stuff. There were reasons for people to want to kill him. Can you talk about that.
Yeah, So Brian was involved in drug dealing, and we were able to uncover a lot of things in our investigation that really suggested that he owed a lot of money, big money to maybe some not good characters. And that is a much more likely scenario given the nature of the crime, that it was something related to him owing money to sort of hiring drug dealers. And there's a couple of possibilities as to, you know, who actually did the crime.
Well, and let's talk about this, right, because two weeks before the murders, Brian was arrested alongside another dealer's name was Mike May, and it was rumored that Brian may have avoided jail time by snitching. Right, we know how
people react to that. In the underworld. There were also witnesses who had witnessed violent and quote unquote unpleasant individuals arguing with the Days about money in the week leading up to the murders, and just days before the murders, Shannon Day was heard saying that if anything happened to her or Brian, because Shannon was his wife, it would be Kenny Chickenfields, who was one of Brian's main suppliers,
who would be responsible. But authorities somehow managed to overlook all of these potential suspects and they zeroed in on the Day's only black friend, Tim Howard. Now, you know, it's hard not to say that there may have been some inherent bias towards Tim because he is a person of color in a place that was not very racially diverse.
But what's in interesting is Tim, if you were so close to them, and they made a big deal out of this because of course some of your biological evidence was in their house because he was your best friend, right, Yeah. And when I say he was your best friend to the extent that you actually accompanied his wife to the hospital when she went into labor, right, and he was out scoring meth and you took her to the hospital.
I mean that's a pretty close friend. I don't know who you know who would do a thing like that other than somebody's best friend. So, Tim, they had what they considered to be evidence, which was your fingerprints on a mountain dew bottle found inside the home of the victims, and also your fingerprints or on the truck. But that's easily understandable and easily explained by the fact that you were literally best friends and you were in and out of the house all the time.
Yes, I mean, well we at one point we actually had right across the street from each other. I mean the thing about it was when they said biological evidence in the house, had they look, I have clothes in the closet, choose you know, because I'm in and out and he's the same thing at my house. He had closed at my house. I mean, so naturally it would have been odd not to find my fingerprinting anything else around the house.
And meanwhile, your defense argued, which would seem to be a good argument, basically what we had said before, which was that Brian was heavily in debt and was killed by drug dealers who were tired of his uh shenanigans. Right, I mean, that's you know, that would seem to be a valid theory. But meanwhile, the prosecution they theorized, and they advanced the theory. Actually, I should say, they accused you of killing him in a quote unquote meth induced rage, right,
because they said you wanted money. And then this is where it gets to be ridiculous, right, is that their theory was that you had been upset after hearing that Shannon might have been pregnant with your baby. Even though and I know this might be a sensitive topic, but even though you were sterile, right, it was known that you were sterile because you had found out a couple of years earlier.
I knew for several years before that that I couldn't have kids, me and my wife at the time hit so we went to a doctor to found out why. And the sad part about it is, but when they put that theory forward to the jury, they knew it wasn't true because it was in the notes when the medical examiner called him said, look, she just finished her minstrel. You know that she was absolutely not pregnant. But they still advanced that theory because it did inflame the jury.
But as far as other drug dealers there in Ashdown that he owed money to, like the Kenny chicken Fields, the town was so small to where everybody grew up together and they went to school together, and you know, they their families has been around there forever. And when you get locked up in a place like that and to have a capital trial, they give you two lawyers. You got to take a local council and they give
you one out of Little Rock. My attorney out of Little Rock was Matt Carter at the time, great attorney, you know, just overwhelm with this case and he had
a ton of other cases at the same time. But my local council, when Mack brought up the name Kenny chicken Fields, the first thing my local attorneys says, Oh, well, you know, he wouldn't do anything like this, and this is the got it supposed to be on my side, you know, So at that particular time, I had thought, you know, he's telling the other side everything that we're doing.
Now.
I mean, if you're going to defend somebody that you ain't even investigated it because you grew up with him, I mean, I don't stand a chance here.
But then there's another thing which is actually kind of weird, which is this whole thing with the work boots that were found like two miles from the crime scene. Can what have you guys explain that whole aspect of this.
I can explain it to a point. Okay, When we went to get this U haul truck, I was to take it to my house, so I use it like a vehicle. I had boots sitting in the floor along with a bag and several other objects as I drove around town and left it in there because the truck was going to be with Brian. When they found these boots, they're down at the bottom of a ravine a couple of miles from the crime scene. There's blood on these boots,
so they tested them. They found what they all at the time, Michael conjucal DNA that said that this was ninety nine percent mine, But there were also other hairs in this boots that matched nobody. It didn't match me, It didn't match Brian or any of the girls that were with me at the time, and that they had no idea who it was. But the prosecutor's idea was I drove by this ravine in such a panic and I just throw them out the window, and you know it's two or three hundred feet down to this place.
They said I was trying to hit the water. They's alluded that this is where the murder weapon is, which they never found. And the way they explained, there are actual feet print leading from the boots. Somebody put them there. Why we don't know. At best, you can say somebody used them to do the murder in or put them on after to do whatever so they wouldn't get blot
on their shoes. But they put my ex wife up there to testifying, yes, I bought him these boots back during this time, and we oft them all my clothes that I was wearing that night. They wouldn't take. They never took because they said the person should have been a bloody mess.
You also had this ridiculous forensic quote unquote scientists. This would be laughable if it wasn't so serious. But and this really didn't come up till later, right because in twenty eleven, and I want to get back to the trial, but when the handwritten notes came out from the DNA
technician who had testified to your trial. The notes printed on the lab reports, which was over course the three months in nineteen ninety nine, back when you're on trial, contained phrases such as CAP had flipped open while spinning, source of the problem, GEL did not run properly, inadvertently erased, and of course random spurious contaminant. It's ridiculous.
And the real kicker is, you know, the prosecution had those notes from the lab technician and they withheld them from Tim's defense team. So that's ultimately how we got his conviction overturned was discovering that Brady violation. That was evidence that the state should have disclosed and turned over, and they did not, and we had to go back in and find that, find those notes, and that's really what led to the conviction being overturned.
Listening to this story it has now occurred to me that they used the DNA testing to prove that those were your boots, then they find and ignore another contributor to the boots that is not you, Brian, or anyone in your immediate circle, but likely the actual killer's DNA. I mean, they had the frequent lead that they needed to get the real killer. And the irony of the whole situation is that if they weren't so damn incompetent and shady in their attempt to get a conviction, you
would be dead right now. Yeah, yeah, did you know at the time you were facing it possible death sentence.
I had no idea that it was going to go as far as it did, And even when they formally arrested me, still I thought, Okay, I'll get out on bond and we'll figure it out, up until I met Matt Carter and he told me, is, hey, you're facing a death penalty.
I mean, I was just I was floored.
As the trial unwound, you had this one attorney who was basically not only not doing a great job for you, but was almost serving as an adjunct prosecutor, and you had evidence being withheld. There was a lot of dirty tricks going on. You knew you were innocent. But when the jury went out, how long did they deliberate for?
It wasn't very long. But one of the things about that is, don't get me wrong, I wasn't an angel to start with. I was, like I said, a woman, niager, thief, and a drug usual, but I wasn't a killer. But as far as the trial, it only lasted like three days. So while they were out deliberating, the sheriff and his deputies came up and said, Okay, here's what we're going
to do. When they give the verdict. We're gonna take you and your family through this tunnel and we're gonna put y'all in the car so nobody has to see y'all. Were gonna leave. Even he didn't think I was getting convicted. They were making an escape plan. Then when Jerie came back and said it guilty, one of the deputies that when I first got locked up, that me and him couldn't stand it. Your we had become the best of friends. He broke down and started crying. He just couldn't believe it.
I was in shock because I just like they proved nothing with all that they went through. As far as how you feel, you just kind of numb because it all goes so quickly. Because after the verdict, they give the verdict, they whisk you out that night and take you straight to death row, you know, the very next morning.
Well, well, I just want to go back for a second, because we can't skim over a gloss over the thing about the sheriff. So the sheriff was an adversary of yours, if I'm understanding you correctly, when you first went in there, and by the time the trial came around, he was so convinced of your innocence. He was preparing to put you through the back tunnel with your family. And he was actual, he actually, I mean you're saying, he cried when the verdict was read.
Yes, when I first got locked up. As a matter of fact, when Danny Russell became sheriff, I was his first call out. I was at a motel with a particular young lady. Her sister, who I was leaving at the time, came down and set my clothes on fire outside of the hotel room. And Danny came down on the first call and he said, man, what'd you do? And he talked to me and talked written and we kind of, you know, laughed about it and went on. He arrested her, but he said, I'll let her go
if you call him, I'm to come get her. But when he arrested me for this years later, this girl was my girlfriend at the time still and we got married in his jail. But he got to know me the first three months and jail, you know how phone calls and gets expensive in there. He allowed my family to buy a phone call where I could come up every night and call my children. And the guard who I told you I couldn't stand at the time, his
name was Mike. We became the best friend. He would to get stuff and my daughter for the prom, I mean, paid for her dress itself. When my kids coming to business, he made a special deal where they could come back there and see me in their office. I mean, so, I guess I'm senate to say this. Yes, I had a tough ordeal in the jail, but as I got to know the people stayed there all that time, it's hard not to get attached to each other when they see who you really are.
I guess what you could say.
Well, that speaks to your character as well. Yeah, but it's interesting to know that that type of friendship developed, and moreover, that the sheriff himself became so convinced of your innocence. John, in this case, How could the jury have gotten it so wrong that even the sheriff, who you know, went into this obviously with a preconceived notion that Tim was guilty. How could they have gotten this so wrong?
Well, you know, I think there's a few things at play here, and you know, me being a native Arkansas, I can speak to some of the racial components in the whole state and Little River County ashdown Ogden. Listen, the game was rigged to start with. At Tim's first trial and his second trial these years later, it was still a thing of you know, Tim being a black man dates white women, dresses more, you know, like a cowboy boots hat, you know, cowboy hat, the whole nine yards.
I mean, it was the juries of both trials were picked and designed to have that prejudice, and I think that went a long ways to convicting Tim. It was heavy on emotions.
I mean, when you got you know, the.
Husband and wife her brutally killed. But then you've got you know, a seven month old child. It was just a very emotional trial, both of them.
Well, and you got the prosecutor who in his closing arguments saying stuff like the last thing this mother seeing was him standing there and her baby hanging by a cord. Yes, her last I mean, who would not be enraged?
Right?
So it was it was so heavy on the emotional side rather than the evidence side. Then we did have this racial component that went with it. And you know, Jason, as you know, I mean, jury's just sometimes they can't sniff it all out, and this is one of those times where I think they were so emotional about the tragedy, particularly for Trevor, that they couldn't see beyond it.
So, Tim, you're convicted, taking to death row the next day, and can you explain what death row was like?
A lot of people say, well, go in your bathroom and shit to do it and you find out what it's like. You can in a sense, But the difference is you won't get the feeling of death row because you can open your bathroom do it anytime. There are people down there who were there when I first got there. They are not the same people now before I left. They'd lost their mind.
It's crazy to me that everybody doesn't lose their mind in that scenario, and including you. I mean, it's remarkable the human spirit, and I hear it in your voice. It's unbelievable.
But I want to make one thing perfectly clear. I didn't do this by myself. I had a great support team. I mean, you get letters when you go to death Row all the time from different people, and of course most of my curiosity seecret, so they don't last very long. But I got a letter from a lady named Mine Bassett, who is now married to Tomorrow Leverett. But I now call this woman my mother. She sent me a letter and she says, here's twenty five dollars. She was running
a thing called a court bulleting at the time. If you want to write back, here's some money for stamps. If you don't, here's a money for commissary or whatever. Just no, somebody's out here thinking about you. I started writing to her and we started a pin pole relationship type thing. And she's a great teacher and a great person to talk to, but she never wrote up a
person in her life. The only reason I feel like I'm saying out is because of the people who stepped in once I got there, when they heard what was going on, and I got the first four to three decision on my direct appillar ever happened.
So, Tim, can you take us through how the appeals process worked.
Okay, when you first get to death row, you have what you call in a direct appeal, and that happens within the first year that you're there, and usually it's rubber stamp and it's usually seven to zero six do on or something like that. My first atturn under his name was Janie Vaughn. She was a civil attorney retired. Now, unbeknownst to me at the time, that was the best thing ever happened to me, because this woman is meticulous with her research. She's the first one that found these
notes and put them in my direct appeal. She put it everything up with the kitchen sink, and it comes back with this four to three decision. My relever came in, she wrote an article and people start paying attention because of there's never been a four to three decision in the death.
Row case ever.
My whole process takes off from there and John and Proclaim got involved and it was just I can't tell you all the things they did because I wasn't there. I know, they worked a lot of hours going here and going there, interviewing this withness, interview in netwitness, and it was it takes more than two people, it takes more than three people. I mean, it's a whole village that's got.
To do this.
So, you know, we got involved early on through Marra Mara and her wife Linda that Tim was referring to. Mara called me and said, John, listen, you and Jason are just starting this organization and this is the first case out of the gate. And so we immediately started reviewing. When Maria Leverett asked me to review something, I review something, you know, and Tim's right.
We did a lot of investigation.
So, John, what, Yeah, was the key that led to Tim being granted the second trial that ultimately turned out to be so consequential.
Yeah.
The biggest thing that we turned up that really led to this new trial was it was a direct Brady violation from the state. We had these handwritten notes from the DNA technician where she put in there that the samples were contaminated and that was not disclosed to Tim's defense team. We discovered that that was really the smoking gun, so to speak, that led to the new trial.
Jenisi is telling me this whole time, Tim, you're eventually going to get any trial you got. We just got to find you to write lawyers.
So that was around twenty eleven when you find out about the Brady violation and filed the petition with the Arkansas Supreme Court. Then sometime around twenty thirteen, Patrick bank I started representing Tim.
If you're going to have one lawyer in Arkansas, in the whole state that you want on a case like this, as Patrick Banker tomorrow and I talked to Patrick and he took the case, and you know, we were able to help him investigate the case and give a lot of support.
You know, Patrick Banker at the time did a hell of a lot of work. And sitting in the court we came for hearing and there's nobody in the courtroom but the prosecutor, me and my lawyers and you know, a few family members. The judge at the time, he's sitting there and he's reading out this stuff about this article, about these cats, about that, and he says, as much as it pains me, and I look up and I'm
like what's he fixing to say? And he kind of goes along those lines, and he's fixing to do something he really don't want to do. And he says, well, we're gonna have to give mister how a new trial, and I about fell over. I did not believe what he had just said. And it went from there and my second trial, like I said, and it was a whole lot different from the first. It was like watching a lawyer on TV. I mean, he was extremely thorough. If there was a blood expert up there, you thought
he was a blood expert. If there was a gun expert there, you thought Patrick was a gun expert. And he wasn't the only one there. There was a lady from the public finish Dimnsion named Kate Street. Excellent job, and they went through each witness against me one by one and discrediting.
At his second trial, he was charged with three capital crimes, three first degree crimes, three second degree crimes, and after a two and a half week trial, the jury got the case the Friday night of Mother's Day weekend or Fathers Mother's Day, Mother's Day weekend, the Friday night of Mother's Day weekend, and we had some indication from jury questions that there's probably going to be a compromise verdict,
and sure enough, that's what happened. So about midnight on Friday night, after a two and a half week trial, they came down and acquitted him of all the first degree charges, acquitted him of all the capital charges, convicted him of second degree charges with the idea that his sentence would amount to time served. And so that was the compromise that the jury had reached after this long
ordeal on this holiday weekend. And we've confirmed that with jurors, you know, who were supportive of Tim after that verdict, who were sending him money and all kinds of things. So Tim is actually not exonerated. It's one of these imperfect situations, Jason, that we know so much about, where he's off a death throw. He's a free man. He's sitting here with us right now. But it's an imperfect solution.
And I want it known that they gave me that I didn't accept anything. I'm still telling everybody I'm innocent. It wasn't one of those things where okay, we got this deal, here's what you gotta take. This is what they came up with, and they asked specific questions. They even signed a piece of papers and we expect for him to go back to prison to get it number and be let out within two weeks. This is what we agreed to, which, of course that didn't happen. I
had to spend another two years in prison. After Autumn Rigan Moroll, after my conviction, I became friends with a few of the jurs and find out what it was like in that jury ring. You know, it's just the compromise was, Okay, we don't believe you did it, but we believe you know who did. It's not telling them, so you're not, you know, leaving here Scott free. It was a compromise that if they hadn't made, they had
a hung jury. And the ones who were supporting me thought, if he has to come back, what if he gets another jury that convicts him again all together, you know, everybody against him, So they want to take that chance.
And they also didn't want to stay Mother's Day weekend.
Yeah you know that, and that was exactly it. So they wanted to go home to their kids. One girl even broke down crowning it, and she was for me at first. She changed her mind because she said she was just tired of argument, and she wanted to go home to her kids. She was willing to send me to prison because she was tired and real to go home to her kids, not because she believed because she was on my side at first.
Yeah, it's just different, Tim.
Ultimately it took until over two years later. December thirteenth of twenty seventeen, Tim Howard was finally granted parole, over twenty years after his wrongful conviction, and released from prison and home in time for Christmas. With all the villains in this story and all the you know, all the people who either mistreated you, let you down, who turned out to be either corrupt or incompetent or dishonest, there are a lot of heroes in this story too, and
Patrick certainly one of them. John the proclaimed justice people. There are some jurors obviously who stuck by their guns and in spite of the pressure I'm sure they felt in the jury room. It's clear from hearing exactly what happened that they knew you were innocent and they wanted to do the right thing. But there are probably a couple of people in there that just were refusing, and that's not excusable, but it's good to recognize the people who come out in this story. Even the woman who
wrote to you gave you hope. I mean, there's a lot of good from this and you're here as a result of those people. So that's actually a good reason to turn to John, Because before we get to the wrap up of the show, John, can you talk about proclaim justice, because you guys have been doing amazing work. I would say, you know, batting above your weight or whoever that phrase.
Is, right.
Yeah, there have been quite a few exonerations that have come from the work that you and Jason and your team have done. I've enjoyed dealing with you, both as a member of the board and also as someone who's worked with you on cases. Talk about talk about proclaimed justice and if you could tell people how they can get involved, whether it's as simple as sending a check or going to a website or getting involved on a deeper level.
Yeah.
So we were born out of the West Memphis three case. I was an activist in the West Memphis three case, and once we got those guys out, Jason Baldwin and I talked about starting We wanted to keep that network together of notable people of you know, folks all over the world who had supported that case, and we just had the idea to start this organization and try to keep that network together to advocate for other victims of wrongful conviction.
So we started this after.
Jason and Damien and Jesse got out of prison, and Tim was our first case, you know, right out of the gate. So yeah, we are a small organization, but we do good work. I've got great people on my team, great investigators, lawyers in our network. You know, we try to run very efficiently for our clients, and we try purposefully not to take on too many because we're interested in their post release condition and the whole thing. So maybe sometimes our resources are spent on making sure their
lives are settled once they're out. How people can get involved is go to proclaimsice dot org and you can read about some of our cases that were currently working on and how to get involved. These cases are very expensive, they take a long time to work, you know, continued financial support you can donate from the site as well, that goes a long ways. So I would just encourage people to visit our site and learn how to get involved from there, you know, what him can speak to this.
A small thing that people can do that just goes so far is writing the people who are in prison for something they didn't do, so they can, you know, write our clients. They can find the addresses and all that stuff on our website. And I think that little bit of encouragement goes a long way, and it's something easy for people to do.
So that's proclaimed justice dot Orgon.
I would go a step further to say, even John said with writing to people who are innocent, I'm gonna say right to people here because the guys it's on death row now, even the ones that are guilty, they're not the same person that they were when they got locked up. Some better, some are worse. Find the personally, give them some kind of hope. I mean, because there are some really really good guys there who made a bad decision. I mean, and there's some there's just some
guy there who I really I consider friends. I mean, if they was get out tomorrow, they're working with my home.
Tim. I'm glad you said what you said, because I'm going to quote the great Brian Stevenson who said, I believe everyone's better than the worst thing they've ever done. So that being said, this is a part of our show called Closing Arguments where I get to thank John and Tim for taking time out of their day and sharing their story and their wisdom and experience. And then I get to kick back, turn my microphone off and just listen and let each of you have the final word.
John Eure up first, so fire away Closing Arguments go.
One of the great honors of my life in this work is sitting beside a guy like Tim Howard. I tell people that, other than maybe my son being born, the best days of my life are when I get to sit beside somebody who we collectively have worked so hard to get out. It's the most rewarding thing. And it's important for people to know that this is just not uncommon unfortunately. I mean, there's a lot of Tim Howards in the world that are still in there, and
you know we're working hard for them. Join the fight with us. Every little bit helps. You can follow along with our endeavors Aproclaim Justice on Twitter and on Instagram. There's always updates with what's going on with Tim and Daniel and other folks that we freed and other folks that we're working to.
Free and now over to you Tim for closing arguments.
All right, Well, people like proclaim they don't just drop you when you get out. They still try to help you along. I've had a few bumps in the road and they've been there for me, just like Linda Beset, my mom, and my relivered Janis Vaughn, Patrick Pinker, all these people who came into my life, they're still there and I just want to say thank you to all of those people. Everybody that's in my life now. The
people at my job at le Support Innovations. I have two great bosses, Ray and Jan and RACKI who believe in second chances and have been so gracious and went above board to support me as I go through what I'm going through now. I just want to say thanks and into even the people that I don't know who helped me in different spots in different times. Please just step in and do what you can when you can, and if I can help you in some way, let me know. As far as being on social media, I
haven't got that down path yet. I mean, I got a Facebook page, but I don't really post on it a lot because there's always push back on I'll get pushed back for this interview in some way somehow, But that's cool too. I mean, you, nobody's gotta believe what I say, but just believe the situation.
Don't forget to give us a fantastic review Wherever you get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the NSIS project, and I I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to innocensproject dot org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is by three time OSCAR
nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one