Welcome back to our mini series Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. In the time of COVID. You know, COVID nineteen has wrecked havoc across the globe. Countless lives have already been lost this unprecedented worldwide economic devastation, and the Internet is full of misinformation that has so many people in disagreement about what is real and what's the best path back to normalcy and why does so many plans seem to involve callously risking or even losing so many more lives.
All of this while we're living with the restricted movement, isolation, and economic anxiety, to say the least, with so many ethical and philosophical questions looming in the zeitgeist, I can't think of a better member of our wrongfully convicted community to guide us through this tough time. So this week we'll talk to a man along with four other young
teenage boys, which vilified and demonized in the media. Donald Trump infamously and wrongly took out full page ads in the newspaper back then to call for the reinstatement of the death penalty just so these kids could be executed
for a crime they didn't commit. They were barely teenagers when they were lied to by authorities and pitted against each other to give false confessions, and ultimately they were sentenced to many long years behind bars, only to have about a decade later, the man who committed the horrific crime at the center of the media law enforcements circus, Matthias Reyis confess, thereby clearing the names once and for all of the Central Park five, now known as the
Exonerated Five. Now, he tells us about how community living in his mind, doing things that add value to his life and the life of others, Realizing his purpose through the pain, and his underlying faith were and are the keys to his survival. You can hear his story of triumph over tragedy in episode eight of season six, as well as in the interview with one of his co defendants, Raymond Santana, in the very first episode of season one
of this podcast. His story is told in the Netflix documentary series When They See Us, and he's the author of Words of a Man as well as being a prolific public speaker. I'm very proud to call him my friend. Doctor Yusuf Salaam. I'm coping in the time of COVID. Today we have a doctor in the house, convicted man named doctor Yusuf Salam, And well, welcome back.
Oh, it is absolutely a pleasure. Thank you for having me again.
Well, it's been a whirlwind since we last spoke, you know, aside from the world going completely haywire and this, you know, coronavirus taking over the news and our consciousness and how are you and your family doing right now?
Everybody's actually okay. So we're in different places in the country, of course, some in the south, some in the West coast, a lot in New York where the epicenter is. Hopefully things are beginning to subside a bit. I've definitely lost some people that I know. It's a very scary time as well. Yeah, but we just got to hold on to the faith that we have so that we know that we won't leave here until our mission is complete. And I think that that's the most important thing.
And speaking of your mission, since you appeared on the show, of course, the incredible documentary about the Central Park five When They See Us was released to great critical acclaim as well as to I think a wonderful response from the audience. So how has that changed your life? If it has.
You know, it's been a dramatic upshift in the attention that we have and also the platform that we have in the world in terms of global recognition, and people always reach out to us for support. It's been great to find purpose through the pain. Since the movie has been made. You look at our social media, for one, we went from probably under ten thousand followers all of us to over three hundred thousand followers for most of us. And of course you look at Corey Wise's following and
he's over five hundred thousand people. It's tremendous. That reach is great and it's a blessing for us, of course, because we do have something to say. We do have something to share, you know, especially when it comes to you know, human rights as it relates to prisoners, and you know, especially now in the age of COVID nineteen as it relates to prisoners as well.
And have you in touch with the other guys and how are they holding up during this crisis.
Yeah, we've been in touch. Everybody's holding up as best they can. I know Raymond's fiance's father have went through about of COVID nineteen came out on the other end and that's always a great thing to have survived.
You know.
Just a side note, Raymond's newfound love and life is encouraging. You Just look at the peace and happiness in his face.
Oh yeah, I see him on Instagram and he looks like he's on top of the world. You know, he's got that. It looks like he's in love and that makes me.
Very happy, you know, yes, indeed.
So I want to talk about the current situation because people are experiencing this crisis in different ways. The people who are sheltering at home, who are quarantining, some have a large family, some are all alone. Some are in very small apartments or houses. They're not used to this. It's very frustrating for them. But you've been through hell, like you've literally been to hell as a young teenage
recently child. You were wrongfully convicted and thrust into an environment that was cramped, dirty, hostile, noisy, dangerous, violent, But somehow or other, you persevered. And I believe that there are lessons that you can share with us. I'm hoping that can help everyone, including me, to you know, work through this, you know, indefinite period of time that we're all stuck in together. And you know, and come out better.
I definitely can appreciate that. You Know, what I did to maintain my sanity was I began to live in my mind more than in what was going on around me, and this allowed my mind to remain free as opposed to me being completely in bondage. There was a lot of meditation that I was involved in. There was a lot of planning on paper, There was a lot of visualizing. You know. One of the things that we have to all come to grips with is that once we come out of this, it is going to be a brand
new world. It's not that we were the only ones that had experience this, right, This is a global phenomenon. And so as a result of that, I think it's important that we look at things like how do we keep our minds mentally exercised? And I think that that's by reading books, of course, I think that's by listening to audible and things of that nature. Don't just pass
the time doing nothing. You know, I was thinking about all of the essential workers and essential places that they kept saying we're open, and of course we had the liquor stores and you know, for those people that partake I'm not necessarily down on them or saying anything bad about them, but we can't. Just as I would say, when I first won my lawsuit, they ran up to me and said, hey, what are you going to do now? And I said, well, I'm not going to be sitting
on a beach sipping my ties. This is now allowing me to jump fully into the fight to be a full participant in the freedom, justice, and the humanity of us as a people. And a lot of that happens in your mind. It happens as you plan your work. You realize that you are born on purpose, and you have value, and you have something to give. And we just have to take that faith and begin to massage
it into our every day. Whether that means that we're going to just start exercising, if that just means one set up in a day we are better than we were yesterday, because that's how it is. That's how we have to put one front in the front of the other. We have to live in our future, because if I didn't live in my future, I could have never become
the person that I was to become. I could have never had that hope that one day I'll be out of here and I'll be a free person, and the truth is going to come out, and I'll be able to utilize my story to transform the world.
I'm still trying to understand how you went from a kid with hopes and dreams, going to the park, playing ball, doing whatever it is that kids do, and one day, all of a sudden, you're one of the most hated people. And then moreover, you end up in this prison cell. Everything overnight changed for you and you had to really become a man overnight in a situation no child should ever find himself in. And you talk about meditation and books and things like that, but let's go back to
the first day you're in this cell. How did you find that inner strength, that extra gear that allowed you to become a meditator that allowed you to read and amidst all the chaos and the noise and and things like that.
Well, I got to tell you, it wasn't necessarily just me. It was definitely a community. It was that that community that raises the child. Those people that I had in my circle that would write me and encourage me. You know, it was those letters from my grandmother that would be addressed to this person named Master use of salaam. My grandmother was trying to supercharge me. She was trying to get me to think differently. She was telling me, by me reading these words master use of Salam, that I'm
a master of my fate. You know. People telling me to be still and listen. People telling me to utilize this time to try to find out the why, because once you find the why, you can live anyhow, as Niittsche says. And I think part of that philosophical reality began to take shape when I was asked a question early on in my prison bit six months in. The officer walks up to me after he's been observing me for all this time, and he had one question for me.
His question was who are you? And I'm thinking that I understand what this question means, and I say, I'm used of salam, one of the guys that they accused of raping the Central Park jogger. But I didn't do it. And I realized from his response that I had answered him incorrectly, because he said who are you? And he said, no, I know that. He said, I've been watching you. You're not supposed to be here. Why are you here? Who
are you? And it was like a jump start. It was like a matrix, a neo Morpheus moment where I'm like, hold on, like what I like? I know I'm not guilty of this crime? So why am I here? What is it that I'm supposed to go through? What is it that I'm supposed to grow through? So when I come out on the other end, I'll come out of person better, stronger for all that I had gone through. And so first day in prison, of course, was fight.
How do you fight? And so I'm thinking, man, I'm hearing the words, I'm hearing people yelling out, I'm hearing people telling us that they're gonna kill us. And I start shadow boxing. And imagine I was growing up and my mother sent me and my sister and brother to learn martial arts. There were two top instructors in New York City at the time. One was a gentleman named Master Little John Davis. The other one was doctor Moses Powell. I happened to be trained by Massive Little John Davis.
And the way that they trained us, it was rigorous. It wasn't you know, Okay, we're gonna cut the board and you're gonna punch the board and be surprised that you broke the board because we pre cut it. Now we had to punch boards that had no cuts in it, and it hurt our hands. We had to do push ups on the ground, We had to spar with people who were older than us and bigger than us. And it wasn't something that I realized until I got to prison that they were training us for real life. They
were training us to survive. They were training us to be our ancestors' wildest dreams, to not succumb to the pressures. It's a common known fact in the black and brown communities, but people say, oh, yeah, we're going to be DEADO in jail before we reached the age of twenty one, and those of us who became known as the Exonerated five did not escape that. And the great thing about it is that we were able to take these limits that life gave us and make some lemonade out of it.
Are there any particular books that have held help you, either while you're in prison or since you've been out, or even now that you're experiencing a very different type of lockdown that you could share with us that you think might be help with other people.
Man, it's crazy because of course, we are a few days into Ramadan, and I'm a Muslim, I'm a practice in Muslim and I'm fasting. And what gets me all the time around this time of the year is that we have to reorient ourselves to our scripture, which is the Koran. And I'm saying that because people of faith, even if they're not Muslims, can reorient themselves to their scripture, the Torah of the Bible, any spiritual book that allows them to reconnect with the Creator. My grounding force has
always been books of scripture. I've read the Bible of the Koran, and I found tremendous value in that, and I read other things besides that. I've read a lot of books about the Black experience, and one of one of the things I've found is that there's a shift that happens when you understand the black experience but couple it with humanity. Then you don't get stuck in a way that is detrimental because all of us are human beings.
Once you start going into a one sided reality, it begins to become problematic and challenging because we live on this planet with the rest of us, you know. I try to read books that make sense. You know. Of course, The People's History by Howard Zen is an important book. The Destructure of the Black Civilization A Chancellor Williams is another important book. But it all goes back to reading. We shouldn't consume our time with just doing stuff that doesn't add value to ourselves.
You have certainly become a I think, a really incredible example of what is possible and how to overcome, uh, you know, the worst that life can throw at you. It was so impactful for me to hear what you're talking about, the guard saying who are you? I learned from Deepak Choprah to ask myself the same question. And I learned that, you know, when we normally think of that,
who are you? I'm a record executive, I'm a podcast host, I'm a I'm a father, I'm ay this, I may that all everything can be taken away from you.
Right, So what happens when you're stripped of everything? Right? That happened to us very very early in our lives. And I think when I when I delve into the depths of what that means, the horror of it. Right, if you think about every child who is born is blessed with the ability to be a child. It's blessed with the naivety of what life has to offer, the dreaming. We all have that desire to be something in someone and to add value and to be valuable. And it
may not be as deep as that sounds. We want to have a good life, but what happens when everything is stripped away from you? There's a prayer that Muslims praying in Arabic. It says iyaka na abu du la iyaka a stadi, and what it means in English is to God. We're saying, you alone do we worship? And
you alone do we ask for help. Everything that we have been given is because of the Creator, and it's a disservice to us when we don't give God or the Creator it's due because then we honor God and then we're blessed with more to Always talk about like how do you get more money by giving it away? You know, it's a concept that is kind of aloof from people who don't have money, who need money, But this is like how do I give money away? Like
I need money, like I need money to survive. But once you find out that charity increases your wealth and it increases your spiritual wealth as well. You feel better, and especially if you give more than what you thought you would have given, it begins to feed you and nourish you in a way that you could not have been fed or nourished any other way. And I think that that's the part that's important. The secret is being
able to plug back into the source. There's been a challenge, I think, all along in our lives where we're trying to figure out why are we here? What are we supposed to do with our lives? And there's those of us who have kind of come close to it whove kind of figured something out. They're using it to push forward in life and add value to life and also
add value to others. And I think that that's the part that's important, being able to share your life in such a way where it's no longer about you, but it's about who else can listen and become enlightened by what it is that you've gone through, because if you were able to survive it, they can survive it too. If I went to prison, and I don't say this to impress anyone, but rather to impress upon people that if I went to prison and got a college degree.
We can do anything. People who are looking for a job, who are trying to figure out a way out of no way, they have time now to use their minds in a way that they've never used their minds before and create solutions to some of the problems that we have. And some of those solutions are going to yield enormous,
enormous value. And even if that means that you have to go back to a normal nine to five, you can return to the normal nine name knowing that there's something more valuable that you can contribute if you haven't been doing your best, But if you've been doing your best, then you know that that's all you can do. Once I plug in and say I'm going to do my best, I can go into a space that may say, hey, we only have a dollar to give you. I'm going to give them a two million dollar speech. And it
helps me. It has value and purpose to me. It allows me to become better and to show up in spaces more plugged in, more dynamic, more willing to serve because it's about the service. That's what it's all about.
No, I'm with you too. It's interesting. I'm not a religious person, but I feel like there is no greater joy than in being able to lift somebody else up. You've certainly found your gift for doing that, which is awesome and great to see, and I know that it's going to have an impact on people in our audience who are feeling frustrated, you know. But I have to ask, there must have been moments when you felt bitter, anger y,
me type of feeling. Was there a darkest moment that you can recall from all those many years you spent in prison?
You know? I think it all was dark, and I think that the light that I found in the darkness was when I remembered. Once I began to get nervous, then it got more dark. But once I remembered that I was going through this, or rather I was growing through this, then it all made sense. Then I could see the light imminating more. But if I let the darkness consume what I was growing through, I would have never been able to survive.
You're a father many times over now, and that's got to approach particular challenges. I would think with people going stir crazy in the house, not being able to go out to school and do other things the kids are used to doing. So I'm interested in your perspective because a lot of other people are going through the same thing, and can you share any Is there a funny story or anything else from this experience of being stuck at home with the kids?
You know? So I think the funniest story of being stuck at home with the children are finding ways to start, like to not go still crazy. I mean, children all times of the day, all times of the night, they're doing all kinds of funny, cool things. You know. We have these amazing moments all the time where either my eldest daughter in the house now, who's she's developing her ability to really become a great artist, and she's drawing
these beautiful pieces of artwork. I mean, it's just it blows my mind because of course the other children are just maturing and I'm here, you know, I'm usually on the road a lot, and I'm usually sharing with the rest of the world, and so now I have this opportunity to be at home, to be a father, to be hands on, and to see the growth and development that happens with the children all the time. And I think that that's something that you don't want to miss.
There's a value in that that you really want to be able to participate in and be able to witness and to see. And then of course I have older children who are in New York, and to share with them and to talk with them mentally, they are on a whole nother level. I'm still seeing them as my babies, but there are adults. They're on the cusp of being adults, and of course being able to share with them some of my wisdom and insights adds value to what they're going through. Yeah.
I guess that comes back to something that someone reminds me of frequently, which is when when I say, oh, I have to go do something, it's like no, no, you get to.
Go do whatever. You don't have to do it, right.
So it's really just sometimes changing one word and change your whole perspective. And I appreciate you reminding me of that. So this is the part of the show that our listeners are familiar with and that I think they appreciate and enjoy, probably as much as any part of the show I know I do. So I want to again thank our very special guest today, doctor Yusuf Salaam. I'd like to turn it over to you for what I
call words of wisdom. So thanks again. I'm going to kick back and just listen to what you have to say.
Yeah. Man, So I'm just honored to be here, honored to be alive and to be able to share. And one of the things I want to give people is the idea of never giving up trying to do the best that you can, especially now, and I think most important to reinvent yourself. When we show up in this new world in the next few months, the next few weeks, I think we want to show up our best selves. And I want to say that kind of like emphatically.
If we can put our best foot forward, become our best selves, then that's where we can really gain the truth benefit from life. And that's what it's all about, being able to be here and say that we mattered. We don't want to leave this world without a trace. As my good friend Les Brown says, we want to be able to at the end of our lives be able to look back and say every thing that we were supposed to do, we were able to do it. Every idea that came to our minds, we gave birth
to it. We don't want to be on our deathbeds, when all of the hope streams and aspirations are looking at us and knowing that they're going to die with us because we didn't give it life. The best thing that we can do is give life to not only things that come to us and the value that we can add, but give life and allow our lives to show other people how to participate fully in their lives. We don't want to be on the sidelines looking at other people's lives anymore. We have to participate.
Wow, that was awesome. I really hope you got as much out of it as I did, because every time I hear doctor Salam speak the perspective, the grace, the optimism of a man who has been to hell and back, who was sent to prison, to you know, to some of the roughest prisons in the country as a young teenager, and who took the opportunity to find himself as opposed to collapsing or acting out and emerged stronger, better, and now is really just a beacon of light and otherwise
very dark in the time that we find ourselves in. So yeah, doctor Yusa Salam, the only word I can think of for you as hero. Now I want to end by saying thank you to our first responders, the healthcare providers, all the essential workers, cleaning people, everyone who's
doing their best to help keep our society going. And I want to also shout out the people who are working in our courts through this difficult time that the public defenders, the defense attorneys and others who are you know, they're going to work and they're putting on their masks and their gloves and they're you know, they're out there doing their level best. So many who could be phoning it in are out there fighting for their clients. Props
to you as well. In the meantime, I hope you've been listening to Laura and I writer and Steve Drissen as they enlighten us on their podcast False Confessions. They have two more amazing episodes left before the start of our new season of Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. I hope you've taken some of the priceless wisdom from our wrongfully convicted community to heart. It all was not easily earned. I mean, this was the hardest possible way. They earned
this wisdom, these unbelievable people sharing their thoughts. This is the last episode of our mini series as we focus our efforts on the upcoming season. So keep staying safe and thank you for joining us for an alternative perspective on living in the time of COVID. Don't forget to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you get your podcasts.
It really helps.
And I'm a proud donor to the NISIS Project, and I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to innisonsproject dot org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on
Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one