#126 Jason Flom with Amanda Knox in Times of COVID

can do to fill that void. So my team and I have been reaching out to the experts are Wrongfully Convicted community for advice on how to cope with the dark side of isolation. Last week we spoke with Damian Echols of the West Memphis three, and if you haven't had a chance, I strongly recommend listening to his advice about focusing on the things that you do have control over, like scheduling, self improvement, exercise, art, literature, and most importantly,

holding onto your sense of humor through the darkness. This week, we'll talk to a woman who was at the center of an international scandal when she was demonized in the media, all while trying to navigate a legal system in a language that was foreign to her. Eventually, she was sentenced to twenty six years in an Italian prison for a

crime she simply didn't commit. She'll tell us about how she's holding up now, her concerns for all those isolating alone as well as the currently incarcerated, and what she did to make the best use of her time and to combat the absence of physical touch while she was in prison. And you can hear her entire story of triumph over tragedy in the first episode of our second

season of Brownful Conviction with Jason Flom. She's the host of Vice Media's Scarlet Letter Report and The Truth About True Crime podcast, and she's someone that I proudly referred to as my little sister, Amanda Knox on coping in the time of COVID. They have one of my absolute favorite human beings, someone I referred to as my little sister. Amanda Knox is our guest today. Hi Amanda, Hi big brother,

Welcome back to the show. How are things with you during this time of COVID, let's just call it, how are things with you and Chris? Well, we are very fortunate compared to a lot of people, even within our own family. You know, Chris and I haven't had to change our lifestyles all that much. We've already worked from home, so we're used to being in that self disciplined rhythm. We're used to feeling a little caged up. We are healthy, we have not lost our jobs. We cannot say the

same for everyone in our family. UM. We have friends who have definitely lost their jobs. UM. There are a number of people in our family who are at high risk. UM. I'm thinking particularly of my Oma, who is in her eighties and needs to go to the hospital in a few weeks for heart surgery. So it's really, UM a difficult time knowing how fragile we all are and having that reinforced, even if Chris and I personally are very

very fortunate. Like on the phone the other day, Jason, you said you're lucky to be quarantined with your partner, and I couldn't agree more. I have friends who don't have that privilege, and I understand what it means to not have loving, caring touch for a long, extended period of time. That's one of the things that I find the hardest to comprehend is when someone like you was in the situation you were in there. You are in a tiny cell in a foreign country and you really

can't be more alone. Um. And as you said, for years, you went without a friendly or loving touch from any other human being, right, And how did you cope with that? And what can we learn from that experience for people who are alone? Now? You know, my experience of it was it almost happened without me realizing it, where I stopped being used to people having loving touched towards me. I slowly, over the course of time, grew unfamiliar with human contact. You know, that wasn't a pat down, a

strip search, or a potential threat from another inmate. I learned slowly that I was very alone, and that the only touch that belonged to me, and the only thing that belonged to me, um, was my own and my own mind. So I'm thinking a lot about that these days. You know, I have friends who are struggling with that now, um, And you know, not just people that I know in prison, but I just have friends who who don't have partners. And I remember what it felt like and how much

it meant for someone to just hold your hand. And I deeply, deeply feel and empathize with anyone out there, imprisoned or not who can't rely on that, so any insight that I have for how to deal with that.

One thing that I did um when I was in prison and I felt very physically distant from people was when I wrote my letters to people at home, I would have a picture of them in front of me, and I got so lonely that it got to the point that I would caress their faces in the picture like I would touch the actual picture to feel like I was physically connecting with them in some way. And

that sounds crazy. A lot of the things that I talked about when I talk about surviving prison tactics make me sound like a crazy person, but that did help. Another thing that helped me was having a better understanding of my own body um so in the same way that I stayed sane by really feeding my mind and learning to express my thoughts, even just to myself um

through either journaling or reflection. I think one thing that could greatly help people during this time is to find indoor activities that get you engaged with your own body. I cannot recommend yoga enough because you don't need a lot of space, and by moving through different poses, you discover muscles that you never knew existed, and that process of getting in touch with your own body can alleviate the feeling of being out of touch with other people's bodies.

And you can find zoom classes online. There are great resources on YouTube. A lot of people are sharing their skills and wisdom out there, and especially in the yoga realm, for so many people who are now stuck in you know, very small spaces relative to what they're used to anyway, not relative to what you were used to. UM, but the walls maybe feeling like they're closing in. They have

maybe you know, numerous people that they're sharing their space with. UM. You know, it's a recipe for people to go Stirk crazy, but you had you know, I'm just thinking about the concrete walls and the gray and the lack of creature comforts. But how did you I mean, you were flung into this situation not of your own making. You were facing twenty six years of this. So for you, what were some of the things that besides yoga or caressing the photos? How did you adjust? I mean, how did you keep

from just bouncing off the walls. Over the course of my imprisonment, I was either in a cell with one other person, or a cell with four other people, And I learned what it was like to navigate a small space with lots of people and also an even smaller

place with just one other person. When we are in close quarters with each other, we all need to learn to understand each other's boundaries and needs and to come up with compromises and routines that we can rely on, so that at the very least, there's something that we have control over. The thing that's really difficult about this time of coronavirus for all of us is the uncertainty.

We don't know when it's going to be over. We don't know what the world is going to look like once it is over, and we're sitting here in our small spaces feeling very powerless and out of control, like we don't have control over our own lives. So what I learned to do, and something that the prison environment kind of facilitates for you, is you don't really get to determine what the routine is. You know, when you're in a prison cell, lunch comes. At the time that

lunch comes, you don't have control over that. Um you don't know have control over when dinner comes. What you do have are many many, many many hours at a time in a small space where you have limited abilities

of what you can do. And one thing that I did in a big cell or a small cell was I tried to think of how I could make this day worth living, because I was always having that conversation with myself where my time was the thing that was being taken from me, and was there any way that I could salvage my time in a meaningful way so that it made living worth it? And very often that meant that I was doing a heck of a lot

of reading. I was studying languages, um, not just to try to become fluent in attack Alion for my own survivals sake, but also for the joy of learning languages. The one thing that I think that people are really dealing with right now that I didn't have to deal with prison, and that I think is both a blessing and a curse, is um. You know, in prison, one of the hardest things to do is to find reason

to be purposeful. Um. It's hard when you are removed from society and told that you're a worthless human being, less than a human being that doesn't have anything to offer society to then get up every day and say I'm going to do something purposeful. I'm going to learn something because I'm worth something and my mind through exercise

has potential. Today people in quarantine maybe struggling with wondering when their next meal is going to come, how they can keep earning and have pot nil in the world when the source of their income and the way that they have spent their time has been removed from them.

You know, it's one thing to say, use this time to like learn a new skill, but some people don't have the ability to learn a new skill when they're taking care of their children or they're trying to figure out how they're going to get a job in this economy. Not all of us have the privilege of finally getting to read that book that's been on the shelf for ages and ages and ages, and like, the one thing that I can say is, at the end of the day,

there's only so much you can do. So at the start of the day, at any given day, you can think through what it is that you're able to do to solve the problems you have, and then once you've moved through all those motions that you can literally we do in a single day. Don't beat yourself up because you can't do anything more. Let yourself be at peace with the fact that you've done everything that you can do.

That's something that I had to live with every day, was, you know, wishing that I could do so much more and trying to give myself a break when at the end of the day, I just I was still stuck there. I was still trapped. But I had written a letter to my mom, I had done three d sit ups,

and that was what I could accomplish. Let's talk about art, music, literature. Um, were there particular pieces of music or books or anything from the creative space that really helped you then or that are really helpful that other people might find helpful now? Even a even a special movie or what? What? What has fed my soul and what is feeding my soul today? Um? Absolutely so um, without a doubt. And I wonder if you could guess what my favorite book was in prison?

Do you do you have any guess? Oh wait, I'm going to make a guess. Um. I mean I could say just mercy, or I could say something much more. Um, you know, I don't know what's coming to mind. I mean Jonathan Livingston seagull. I don't know what tell me I did read that. Um. My favorite favorite book in prison was The Ultimate Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy and um, and I have to say that, like then and now, I recommend any piece of literature or film or series

or music that has world building built within it. I have a genuine appreciation for someone who can imagine worlds and galaxies and create new rules for them and for me. Because I'm so deeply involved with my work with really sad, serious stuff, um, the kind of stuff that you read about in Just Mercy. For my own sanity's sake, I try to counterbalance that with a combination of British humor and um, weird Al. So I'm I'm a big, huge

fan of weird Al. I love someone who's willing to be silly and absurd and create this whole other alternate reality to the one that we're sitting in that is just a lot more fun. What weird Al should I be checking out? I'm really not that familiar. Other than his hit songs, I don't really know much. Oh my gosh wow. Um his albums are so solid. Honestly, I would love for you to see his music videos because

he's also such an incredible performer. He has an amazing presence, and since we do have access to the internet, unlike in prison, UM, we can enjoy that. So, I mean, White and Nerdy is so funny, and he's just aware of himself in a way that gives me hope for humanity, where he can make fun of himself and the world

by creating these alternate realities. Um. In the same way, Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy was this huge escape for me in prison, where I would be totally sad sitting on my cot in the prison, and I would just stick earplugs in and stick my nose in that book and find myself giggling despite myself. Um, it's funny. Just reminded me. I don't know why, but thinking about Weird

Now reminded me of a song. I had to look it up to see who it was by, but I don't know if you've ever heard, there's a wonderful video called Everyday Normal Guy, Um John mohoy. It's sort of a play on on wrap. He's basically taking the piss out of himself. UM. And so he talks about you know, the lyric start off of just a regular, everyday normal guy,

nothing special about me, motherfucker. You know he probably learned from weird Al if I had to guess, I mean, weird Al is the source of all hilarious inspiration in terms of the music. I think Lonely Island and even Fly to the Concords. Everyone is inspired by weird Al and he he's just a nice guy who who is

willing to be silly for our benefit. So I feel like we've covered a lot of ground here and now I guess all this really left is for me to say, you know, thank you again for making time to do this. And I always, of course Jason always I it always makes me feel better to talk to my big brother. Well, you know, I don't know what to say. I'm just gonna get all choked up here in a minute. But so I'm going to thank everyone for listening. Of course, don't tune out yet, because the best is yet to come.

Once again, my hands in the in the prayer position by my heart as I say this, Um, thank you just for being you and for being a part of my life and for sharing with our audience. It means the world to me. And now the floor is yours. I'm just going to sit back and listen, So Amanda Knox for words of wisdom. So I know that, like right now, this time is a period that's particularly frustrating

because everyone is reacting differently to this pandemic. Some people are really aware of it and embracing all of the things that need to be done to protect themselves from it. A lot of people are in denial about it and

and everything on that spectrum. And the one thing that I try to keep in mind when I am thinking about this is a lot of people are not doing the right thing in response to what is happening, just like a lot of people are making wrongful convictions happen, and you know a lot of those people are doing so with militian senttent, but a lot of people aren't.

A lot of people are scared, a lot of people are being fed bad information, a lot of people are in denial, and there's a lot of psychological factors that are going on as people are processing this very very difficult time. And my one recommendation for everyone going through this as they're interacting with people in the world is

to remember that like kindness does go a long way. Um, that doesn't mean not holding people accountable or not calling people out who are doing the wrong thing, but remembering that it's not a good versus evils equation. It's humans being dumb, which we all are at least that's how I feel about it. Yeah, we all are dumb to some varying degrees, and I, you know, I recognize it

in myself. It's funny, but yes, we all have our we all have our blind spots, and we all are we all have our like I look at the world and I see Like I asked myself, why do people make these huge mistakes that have impacts on other people's lives? And I can't believe that the vast majority of them are sitting there cackling away thinking that they're doing something

horrible to someone. I think a lot of people are trying to do what they think is right without recognizing that they aren't acknowledging all of the information available to them, and the vast majority of them are are being selfish, but being selfish in a very human way. That really comes down to fear and denial. And the way that you combat that, I found is by seeing where it's coming from, but also calling it what it is, which is the person across from you is not an evil person.

They're just a person, if that makes any sense. It's kind of a big topic that I think about a lot when I think about prosecutors and when I think about investigators. Um, I'm always trying to really see the person across from me who is so wrong and yet not succumb to a thinking that doesn't actually help me engage with them and fix the problem. So I don't know. I guess that's my my plug for being ever thoughtful and having compassion even for those who don't seem to

deserve it. Be kind. The first step to knowing yourself is being kind to yourself, and that then leads you to be your best self. This is a time that is very difficult for everyone to be their best self, but you can do it. I love you, all right,

rigid clap for that one. Wow. Just really It's always a great experience speaking with Amanda, but that was particularly meaningful for me because I'm going through the same things, some of the same things that many of you are going through, and to hear Amanda talk about how she almost created her own version of face time by using photographs of people she loved and caressing those photographs. I mean, wow, that really puts things in perspective for me. Um Amanda.

I just feel privileged to be able to be a part of helping you help others by sharing your story. And before we sign off from me and everyone on the Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam team and members of our extended family, I want to extend our heartfelt thanks to our healthcare providers, essential workers and first responders and

everyone who's keeping our society going. Thank you. In the meantime, I hope you've been listening to false confession experts Laura and I writer and Stege Risen as they enlighten all of us about how the hell so many people would ever admit to crimes that they didn't commit, And stay tuned for our new season of Wrongful Conviction with Jason

Flam coming up in May. Next week, we're talking to the one and only Nick Yaris, and if you want to get a head start in his story, we released a two parter season nine, episode five that will blow your mind. So come back for more alternative perspective on living in the time of COVID from someone who's been to hell and back. Don't forget to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you get your podcasts, it really helps.

And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project and I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wardis. The music on the show is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and

on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one