#105 Jason Flom, John Grisham and Chip Harding with Jens Soering

Authoris caught up with them in London. YenS followed through on his promise in this scenario to use his diplomatic community in order to save the love of his life, Elizabeth from the electric chair, so he falsely confessed to the murders. Now, YenS had type OH blood and this was before DNA testing, so the type O blood founded the scene only served to corroborate his involvement, leading to

his conviction. Elizabeth was convicted as an accessory. When that type of blood that convicted YenS was finally tested for DNA, it excluded him as the source. However, this was still not enough for the Commonwealth of Virginia to admit their

mistake and set him free. On February fourth, two thousand nineteen, we released an interview with ensuring along with two of his most ardent supporters, the legendary author and former defense attorney and Innocence Project board member John Grisham, and Albemarle County, Virginia Sheriff Chip Harding. Since then, as many of you

now know, the ensuring situation has improved immensely. In this episode, we will re release much of the original interview along with some new content, including an excerpt from an interview that I did with Dr Phil in which we spoke with YenS again from Buckingham Correctional Facility. We will of course keep you updated on this ongoing story. This is Wrongful Conviction. Hello, this is a prepaid get it calm from an inmate in Virginian Department of Corrections, Buckingham Correctional

to accept it call press zero. This call is from a correction fatility and it's sometime you launitoring and recording. Thank you for Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam. It's me, I'm your host, and today we have an episode that is uh going to rock your world. Um. We have three guests today. UM, I'm gonna save the best for last, but we have John Grisham in the studio with us. John, Welcome, delighted, to be here and Sheriff Chip Harding of albam Moyle County. Yes, Sir, going

to be here, Virginia. And on the phone is Yen sirring one of the most remarkable people I know and one of the most extraordinary cases of injustice that we've ever covered on this show. So Yen's I always say, I'm I'm happy you're here, but I'm sorry you're here. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate the station and John as well. So this is a case that takes us back to the eighties, believe it or not, Um, a case that has all the makings of a John

Grisham novel. Actually, um, because this goes back to Yen's when you were first an exchange student from Germany, a brilliant young scholar. From everything I'm told, there is a Jefferson scholar a freshman at the University of Virginia. Yeah, and do you want to take us back there and tell us how this started? Sure? Um, this was in

the five Um. I arrived at the University of Virginia at a freshman, became prest new students there, and I messed a young woman there who was two and a half years older than I was, and we were both in the same plamatory. She had entered the University Lake because she had had an adventurous um she had gone to an English boarding school and run away with her girlfriends Europe, things like that, And so he came to u V a m private bit older than the rest of us in that dormitory. And I was, um, not

an American citizen. My father was a German diplomat. That's why I was living in the United States. And her family came from South Africa and from Canada. So we were drawn to each other as being um foreigners, um not you know, not Americans. And in the course of that false semester we fell in love. And you know, it was quite surprised to everybody else from the dormatory because she was very experienced and very mature, and I was, I guess a nerd uh and uber nerd and virgin

to boot it. So she was my christ girlfriend. You're a German uber version nerd. It's quite a combination against And she was a beautiful young woman, striking woman, um who you know, anyone in your situation would have probably fallen head over heels for considering the circumstances, but it was of course a faithful star across love affair, yes, and it was a very short little love affair as well.

Um three months after we started dating, or maybe four months, we went to washing DC spend a weekend together, and in the course of that weekend, she told me that she was still using drugs, which he had previously told me he had to stop doing, and that she needed to use our rental car to run some drugs from us DC to her dealer, who was also the university

student back in Charlottesville. And I wanted to come along, but she wouldn't let me because she said that I was such a nerd, no ruth, you would want to be business around me. Um. So she drove off in the car by herself and came back eight hours later and told me she had killed her parents, and she said the drugs had me to do it and they had deserved it anyway, and if I didn't help her, she would be executed. She would be back then they used the elected to she said that they would fry her.

She said that I should be her alibi until the police. She would with me in Washington, and I told her that that would never ever work, because the police never believe boyfriends or husbands or wives and people like that. So I came up with this brilliant idea, UM based on Charles Dickens a Tale of Two Cities of all things. Um, I would take the blame for her. I would take

the rap for her and save her life. That was based on a character in this Chirst novel, UM Sydney Carton, who did that in the In this novel, the difference was that in the novel a particular character actually did get existed. Whereas my father was a German diplomat, I thought I had diplomatic community. I thought that I could take the blame for her crime. And all that would happen with me was about the sent back to Germany and put in prison there in intuvenile prison for about

ten years. And I thought that giving ten years of my life was worth saving r life from the electric two. Um. Yeah, it's sort of a twisted nobility. People do crazy things for love all the time. And we were talking about this earlier again, and I said that such a strange fate that you happen to have only been with one woman and she turned out to be the devil. The devil is a little oversimplified. She was later diagnosed with a very severe personality disorder, so he actually had serious

mental health issues. And of course they she claimed that her mother had sexually appeased her listen the knowledge and cooperation of her father, and you know, there's there's some indications that was that may have actually been true. Ums, we'll never know for sure. Now, she was a troubled young woman. As things developed, you initially were not suspects, but then at some point you decided to make a getaway.

And this is back in the days when for people don't remember in the eighties, you can sort of travel the world under a different name and it wasn't so tightly monitored or regulated. And so you guys went around the world and ultimately ended up in England. And that's when things began to go wrong, right, because you were ultimately arrested for passing bad checks. And then we get to the point where the false confessions come in, or

your false confessions. So the police to both Elizabeth and me back from the jail to the police station and they actually wrote into the police station lab book that I was to be held in Canina Caado. In other ways, I was to be isolated from the outside world and not give an access to my lawyer. And that's exactly what they did for four days. They interrogated me for four days, many many hours, dozens and dozens and dozens

of hours. And then finally on the fourth day, um when I decided to keep my promise to Elizabeth that I had made fifteen months earlier, and I decided to take the blame for what she did. And that's what I did. I told them this story that she and I had cooked up. And of course that fast confession contained many mistakes that the real killer would not have made. I described the clothing of one victim incorrectly, and I'm

placed the other victim in the wrong room. And there were numerous mistakes like that, which you know, should have learned the police to the fact that I might not be telling the truth. In addition to that, of course, at that time, the police who were interrogating me were in possession of an FBI crime scene profile right one of the people invented crime scene profiling, one of the leading special agents, and that profile said that the crime had been committed by a woman in a close relationship

to the victims. And of course I was a man, and I didn't know that it like the one time for twenty minutes, um, so they should have known that the story I was telling them was not true. And then, of course the other thing that happened is is that just a couple of hours after I told the police that I did it, Elizabeth told the police that he did it. He said, I did it myself. I got off on it. I did it myself. I got off on it. But by that stage the police had decided

that I was a guilty one. So they actually let her withdraw that confession, which is hilarious in a way because um, they found hosting the prince at the time scene and not mine, and uh you know, it's, um yeah, quite incredible that they let her withdraw that confession, but they did, and so they ended up charging me with being that and they talked an things that accomplice and they took me on trial and convicted me of something

that I didn't do. And I do want to bring John and Chip into the conversation to just to talk about this scenario that took place in England and the immediate aftermath of it. John you were a criminal defense lawyer in your younger years. Yeah, it goes back to a confession, false confession. There's no other proof, two convicions of the murder, so all they have is a false confession.

And with any false confession case, what you would hope that the authorities do is once they managed to extract the confession and whatever technics they used to do that is that they will match it up to the physical events to see if it in fact matches and false confessions virtually never match up because there are too many details specifics in the murder, the method of murder, or the place, the blood, the blood splattered, the clothing, the room, whatever.

There's a whole fingerprints, footprints, and there's a long list of items that you know. The police go through the investigation, and with a false confession, it's usually fairly simple to realize once you start matching the confession given by somebody who wasn't there, it's impossible for them to remember all the details that the real killer would actually know where he left the bodies, how he killed him, while you know who who did what, what was on the kitchen table,

what was knocked over, what was spilt? These are all, you know, it's a fairly common consense, and in Yen's case, you know there were so many discrepancies between his confession and the actual physical crime scene. You just want to scream and say, why didn't somebody put these together match

them up? And what frustrates me is when you get to trial and you have what you think should be a competent defense lawyer who can walk through the confession step bust up, bust up, and show the discrepanties between the confession and the actual crum scene. I'm not sure if this was done or attempted in YenS case, but it certainly was not effective. And so that's that's what we always start in a false confession case is let's match it up with the proof, and it never matches up.

It never does. And this was a crazy case because, on top of all the other factors that led to his wrangful conviction, I think there was an inherent bias. I can't prove this because of the fact that it was Bedford County, which ironically was the county that lost more soldiers in World War Two to the Germans per capita than anywhere else in the United States. That's why the World War Two memorial is there, and so I think that there's at least an argument that the odds

was stacked against the ends from the beginning. UM. I want to bring Sheriff Harding into the conversation. UM, Sheriff Harding, You've been in law enforcement for several decades, four decades, right, I mean, his resume is is nuts when you look at the number of a creditations he has, in the number of awards he's won, and he's one of the

most accomplished people in law enforcement the United States. And you've dived into this case with all guns blazing, so to speak, and you've examined this evidence eighteen ways till Sunday. Is it theoretically possible that Jen's committed this crime? Is it possible? I mean he could have been dropped down with us from a spaceship and done it. But is it logical he he was there when these murders occurred? Extremely unlikely he was there. There's nothing that puts him

there other than this false confession. And as John was saying earlier, UM, the confession didn't match the crime scene when you look at it. I mean, there was some huge discrepancies that weren't followed up. You had a young investigator, his first homicide case you'd ever investigated, and I'm I'm reading the transcript going, you've gotta be kidding me. You didn't do any follow up. Plus they didn't take the confession.

So when he gets the court very skillfully, the prosecutor only asked questions that were consistent with the crime scene in the event and admitted the inconsistencies. And as John was pouring out, he had a very very ineffective defense attorney that didn't bring that to the attention of the jury.

Is details that corroberate the confession. At the time of trial, the prosecutor pointed out to the jury twenty six times that the police found some O type blood at the crime scene, and that I was the only person involved in the case who had type of blood. The victims did not have type of blood, and my girlfriend did not have type of blood. The only person involved in the case was type old blood was me. Is what

the prosecutor told the jury twenty six times. And it would take another two and a half decades to find out to DNA testing that indeed, that word type of blood that was left by somebody else. So the fact that seemed to corroberate the cons at the time of trial, if mouth shown to actually disproved the confession about a sheriff harding, what percentage of the population has this type of blood? I think it's about isn't it pretty right?

So I mean that really is I mean, it's a ridiculous thing to try to pin anything on, but yet the prosecutor mentioned it twenty six time. It's also worth mentioning that YenS is lead trial lawyer, was disbarred a few years after your wrongful conviction, and he was disbarred because of mental illness. Drugs were a factor in all of this, and it was shown that he was suffering from this during the time of your trial. So it's just another important thing to recognize. This is a nightmare

that no one can imagine living through. Yould, You had been in jail in England for quite some time before you even came to trial. You had nothing in your life experience that would prepare you for any of this, and now here you are in the in the grip of the justice system in Virginia. It's sort of an arch villain, right, And what was this like? For you to go through this UM. At that stage, I had already been in prison for four years fighting expeditions UM

from England to the United States. For most of those four years I was convinced. Then all my lawyers were convinced, and everybody thought that I would definitely be sentenced to death. UM. So I spent four years in prison in effect psychologically on death row. Everybody, including my own team totally I had no chance of avoiding the electric too UM. And then at the last minute that was avoided. We were an appeal at the European product Human Rights and I

was brought back to America. And that sort of thing hasn't effect on you psychologically living in prison for four years believing that you're gonna die O inclusively in the electric two. And I got brought back to Virginion. Everybody hated me, everybody was convinced ELSs guilty and it was really scary and I did not handle it well. I

did not handle it well. UM. But again you have to put it as against the background of my having spent three years under comminent threat of death, then coming into the ZO atmosphere and having to see Elizabeth Haysten a woman that that sacrificed myself for get up understand and touched herself and tell all these lives to put me away in prison. And when I say that he contured herself, that's not just the claim I make. Um. Twenty six years later, he actually admitted that in a

newspaper interviews. He admitted that he touted herself at that trial. But at that time nobody knew that and nobody cared. They just wanted the witness and she did that job. And my own post confession and the blood, that's what did me end. Then the sock print, of course, was a ridiculous piece of evidence that no no serious person should have ever even it shouldn't been allowed in court, and it shouldn't have been in the way that was

done was very devious. Um, and Sheriff Harding, I want to talk to you because, UM, it's interesting to me that you know, Yen's has assembled this remarkable team and it's a great credit to him. And you're an interesting character in this because you're a conservative guy or a guy who's obviously law and order guy, and yet you have devoted yourself selflessly and spent time that you could have been doing anything else two hundreds of hours to this case. Um, so can you talk about that, and

then can you talk about the the actual uh forensic evidence? Right. Well, his attorney, Stephen Rosenfield, asked me to take a look at part of the pardon petition to see if I could find a way to strengthen it or to see if he's miss missed something in it. And I told Steve at the beginning, I felt like Hen's was guilty based on everything I've seen. I know Governor Kane had tried to send him back to Germany. I was opposed

to that because I felt like he was guilty. He should have been given any special consideration just because he was a German. But so Steve gave me the case. It won't take about a couple of hours. Well, I ended up taking a bunch of stuff home that night. My wife thought I lost my mind because I spent basically the whole weekend the dining room table covered with material that Steve gave me, and I said, oh my god,

this is nothing like what was represented. And in conclusion, um, I interupriting nineteen page letter to the governor breaking down the closing arguments of the case. You know, it's the strength of the government's case Last might at the Apple

and I broke that down. And then after that was published, I had another investigator work with me for twenty five years, said, let me help former FBI agent that I know that I worked in another case with jumped in and one of the original investment bed for investigator said he felt like ends had been railroaded and was in us. And also, so the four of us have been working in collectively, we've given a couple of thousand hours. And um, you

want to talk briefly about to forensics. The old blood was very powerful, as was mentioned, um, and I will say if I was on that jury, I would have convicted him based on it the way the evidence was represented so skillfully by the prosecutor. The old blood now we know absolutely no one can test the fact that's not you insure And he's not been detected in the

crime scene. But two other males, one with a b blood and one with old blood, had been detected in the crime scene and we have not identified those people. In my opinion, Bedford County should consider having an open homicide investigation. Then you look at the next piece of evidence that was pretty powerful. The Commonwealth um originally got a certificate of analysis from the State Bureau of Forensics saying that the shoe in sick size was consistent with a six and a half to seven and a half

woman shoe a man five or six. Well, they originally had and this just blew my mind. They originally had a small female as a prime suspect in this thing. And the prosecutor wrote a letter and we got a copy of it attached with the draft aff of David saying that he wanted this woman's blood, fingerprints and shoe impressions because her shoe was consistent with what was in the crime scene. Now that you turn and go to trial, you don't hear anything. The defense attorney brings nothing up.

They bring in a non qualified individual to testify. He did a what we like to refer to as a magic trick, created an over the lay of impression of Yen's foot and staid it basically fits like a glove, reminds you of O J. And he was even instructed he could not testify as an expert. But when you look at the closing arguments of the prosecutor, he says he can only fit one man, one man in the world could and he points a yensering and we know

that's hoop law, that's junk evidence. And the same the same man that that put this on in front of the jury, Robert halott Um, did the same thing in another case where a man was given the death penalty, and thank god it took a few years. He did not get executed. DNA prude, He absolutely didn't do it. So you have here, you have the same junk science being used again. There was a juror that gave an affidavit to the attorneys and said it was tied six

six in the jury room. They wanted to take a look at the sock and shoe evidence again and he said that's what turned the tide. And we know now that's ludicrous. Um, they're really two parts. You've got a false confession and you also have a false alibib. You've got Elizabeth who claimed she stayed at the hotel room and when Yenz came back. She said, Yenz comes back that night after midnight and a sheet covered in blood from head to toe in the rental vehicle, and YenS

asked her to clean it up with Coca cola. Yet that vehicle was tested with lumin all and I've never had a case where blood had been present even bleacher gotten it all out, no indication of any blood at all, and was testimony from the folks to the rental agency that the car was an Imaculica edition, no signs of

any Coca Cola. We have since learned and digging in the little limited information we can see, um that there was actually blood found in the trap of the shower of the master bedroom and that share wall illuminated like fourth of julyas so it gives us the impression as investigators at least one of the participants in this homicide took a shower, So why would he be covered in

blood from head to toe. It's impossible, Sheriff Hardy, on top of all the other evidence and FBI agents like Ed Saulsback who came forward and others to say that there had been evidence that had been hidden or or not turned over and not disclosed in the way that the law mandates that it must be. There's also the uh in chapter eighteen of the book, A far, far Better Thing. There's the story of the car in the woods right, which would again, if you would think that

this alone would be enough to send Yends home. Um, you know, and I'm going to quote from the book again. Uh you know. In two thousand and eleven, Tony of you Can, in the retired of a Lynchburg area auto transmission Stops, said that three to five months after the murder car was towed into his shop for repairs, it's undercarriage matted with grass and mud, as if it had been sitting in the woods for a while. The tow truck driver told Buchanan the two door chevel they belonged

to quote some college kids. And here's the important part. He said in this one statement that when he looked inside, he saw that the floorboard on the driver's side was quote full of dried blood. Beside the console between the front seats, also covered and dried blood, was a single edged hunting type knife, the same type that was used to kill the Hasoms. Now I'm sitting here, I've got chills just reading that. And you know, he this same guy testified or swore and affidated that the Ends was

not one of the people that returned the car. Elizabeth was one and somebody else was the other. But yet here we go again. Yeah, he claianced, just a shame. So much time has passed. He claimed that he called and spoke to Ricky Gardner, who was leading vest together now chief Deputy in Bedford, and told him about this. Gardner Di Nazette says it didn't happen. Um, so so much time has passed. Some of the investigators did work that lead, and we kind of ran it out because

time time was not on our side. We tried to find any documentation with material checks and all that kind of stuff. The banks just don't have it from back in that. But if they've been followed up home properly at the time, same way, if they had sent investigators to the hotel they'd stayed at, it had cleared it

up right away that YenS was there. She wasn't. It was his story of what he purchased was consistent with the hotel bill which she said she purchased when she stayed there was very inconsistent way over with the bill showed in it. And there were three or four more things that Elizabeth says that occurred. We can disprove with her alibi. But you know, the bottom line is that most frustrating for me is everything that has come out of that woman's mouth. It's provable that she's lying, where

it's highly suspects she's lying. We've looked very hard and everything at YenS has said, and we have not caught him in a lie. We were talking about a case in which a couple was brutally murdered, stabbed multiple times, each of them very bloody crime scene, rich with biological

evidence from the actual killers. In theory, you also had a logical explanation for this in that Elizabeth had said multiple times that she had been sexually abused by her mother, that her father may have been involved in this in some way. There was a clear motive in that sense.

We had drugs, which no one ever claimed that you were on drugs, but we know that she was doing hard drugs and that she was running with a very nefarious crew back then and would have had access to the type of people who might commit a murder like this. People who knew you back then, including some people for law enforcement, said that it was even Elizabeth said, it was ludicrous to think that you could have committed a brutal crime like this because you're not a physically imposing guy.

It have had to overpower two adults. None of it ever made any sense, and there should have been should have been relatively simple. And now, of course, so many people have weighed in on this, including Chuck Read, one of the original investigators in the case, who has said in emphatic terms that it could not have been you, that he doesn't believe it was you. And yet we still find ourselves in this situation where we're still all

trying to get you out. It's been very, very difficult for me, especially over the last two and a half years since the parting petition was submitted based on the DNA evidence. It's been really difficult for me because for thirty years we thought there was no DNA evidence in

this case that could prove my innocence. And then after it was actually I on the phone worked my lawyer, Steve Rosenfield, flipping through some old forensics I found, and you know, that's what the Parton depiction is based on. A half years later, we cannot get anybody to backed on it, and that's you know, and then and then nobody going to listen more accept it or do anything

about it. Maybe you guys can try to give me some insight as to why this case is such a difficult one to resolve in the face of such overwhelming evidence of innocence. How do you explain this touch on I can't explain it, and I think you know, Jason from your working in the innocence world. It's as frustrating

as this is, it's not unusual. We We've had cases before where we have to fight tooth and nail to obtain DNA testing for one of our clients, and we get the DNA testing, all the objections of the local prosecutors and local law enforcement. We get the DNA testing, It clears our clients, slash inmate, whatever, and so he's cleared, Okay. Then it takes a year procedurally to get him out. Oftentimes the prosecutor will say, well, I don't really believe

the DNA results. We're gonna try you again, and so they bring him back to the local jail where they can keep him forever again. As frustrating as it is, I'm ashamed to say, it's not that unusual. Most frustrating for me is the law enforcement. I'm in law enforcement, and I hope I'm respecting law enforcement. I'm a sitting sheriff, and yet the sitting sheriff in Bedford County refuses to meet with me and even discuss the case. The lead investigator won't meet with the four of us who have

given thousands of hours pro bono. We don't have anything in it. We're just looking for justice. We asked for one hour and he says he doesn't have time. However, we do have him caught on videotape saying a few years ago, this happened, thirty years ago, he was convicted in court. Why do we need to go any further than And I think that's the attitude, which is it's

really shut down from an investigative standpoint. We've not had access to the investigative files or any further testing because I'm out of my jurisdiction and getting absolutely no cooperation from Bedford. Yeah, they won't even allow you to test the DNA of two guys that we know are in for committing similar crimes in another county in Virginia, who we don't. We have no idea whether they committed this crime or not, but there's there's some reason to believe

that they were. These two guys knife demand multiple times to death within a few days, and that far from the Haysome residents, whether those victims were located, and these two folks, one of them at least was accord to his background, and we've read was involved in in heavy drugs and the Lynchburg area, as we believe Elizabeth was. She was admitted heroin user. And there there DNA should

be in the data bank. They're both doing life for that murder, and we simply ask, would you take those profiles compare them to the crime scene, and the state says can't do it that jurisdiction where the offense occurred. They have to request it into our knowledge. They're not doing anything, which is just remarkable, right when you think about the idea that they just refused to test something that can only prove like one or another, either these guys did it or they didn't. Why wouldn't we want

to know? We want to know from investigative standpoint, do we want to keep following those two guys as a lead or can they be excluded based on the DNA very somebody would take about three or four minutes to compare those barcodes. It's so frustrating. I'm used to working in my own jurisdiction. If I want something tested. I asked Glad to do it. They do it. If I

want to search one, I get it. If I have witnesses and we have two or three people that need to be interview in this case, they refuse to cooperate whatsoever. I don't have any grandeur authority to serve as a peno on them. So it's I really feel for the Innocence project. I see what they go through now now that I'm on the other side. Defense, I feel like you're operating with both hands tied behind your back. Everything's

working against you. So you gotta put a lot more work and effort into it than you really should and try to get to the truth, which we all should want. But apparently we don't all always want the truth and justice. Something I want to touch on before I turn over to John for a second, which is that back in two thousand and eight or nine, with the support of Bishop Sullivan and other luminaries both religious and political figures,

Governor Kane granted a conditional pardon. I guess you would say that would have allowed you to go back to Germany, and then as literally as you were packing your bags, the new governor came in. Governor McDonald, and he revoked for the first time and then two and thirty four year history of Virginia, he revoked the previous governor's order and decided that you would be kept in prison. I think in Yan's case, though we are pressing ahead cautiously

optimistic that the right people are listening to us. We are almost sanctimonious in our belief that we are right and we're not going to stop, slow down, or be quiet. And you know, we have several avenues left. It's not hopeless by any means. We don't view it as hopeless. We we think we can smell victory. John was just

thinking about the multiple avenues available. Um, most innozens cases have only one real option, and that's a pardon, and that's usually a full part, and that makes it very difficult because somebody has to admit that they made a terrible mistake. My case is a little bit unusual that

the state actually has three options. They have the option of an absolute pardon, which would be to declare my innocence and actually admit what really happened, which was that this is a wrongful conviction, but they have to put up. They have a conditional pardon which would be not to say I'm actually innocent, just to say there's a lot of questions and a lot of doubts, you can't be sure,

and then there's a third option. And that so one of mystifying things about my case in comparison to other cases. They have a whole smogus board of options from part absolute, part, additional part, and then and they're choosing not to exercise any of these options. Probably. I recently met Dr Phil, who, before he became the TV star that's known in love by millions, had been putting his various degrees in psychology and medicine to good use in his jury consultancy, business

courtroom sciences. Dr Phil, as you know, advocates for the wrongly convicted. He's been doing it for a long time, so, as you can imagine, we hit it off and decided to sit down for an interview. The crazy thing was, during that interview, Yen's happened to call me, as he

did over the last several years, not infrequently. When he called, it turned out to be a really uh powerful meeting of the minds, and we sensed immediately that Dr Phil might be able to help him and us work through this parole board stalemate that we've been stuck in for such an interminably long time. Pater, you've been in how long now? Thirty three years, six months and thirty days?

Good lord? What's the stumbling block with the appellate courts, with the people that have the ability to grant clemency? What do they tell you is the reason you're still in jail? Um, that's one of the problems. We're not getting any communication. The problem is is that from the very beginning, from THEES, this was a very high profile crime, so a lot of politicians used it in political campaigns to get themselves elected and re elected basically by beating

up on me. The last instance of that was in late so that lasted for twenty nine years. Um. One politician after another try to curry the voters favor by saying that yanswering is a monster. And then after thirty years, the DNA comes out and the DNA shows that the very same blood samples that they used to convict me with at my trial, once they've been DNA tested, turned

out to be somebody else's blood, not mine. And everybody in Virginia who has been beating up on me all the politicians has been beating up on me for all these decades. Now looks stupid and it's very, very difficult to admit you've made a mistake. And that appears to be the problem in Virginia. If if, if they admit that I'm innocent, and they're basically admitting that a long line of politicians going back to the which is dead wrong. That being said, yes, I don't want to leave this out.

We feel like there's light at the very near end of the tunnel. Potentially we won't believe it till we see it. But you know, John Grisham has made this a very personal cause, arguably the most prominent Virginian of these times, and so have so many others. Uh. And the Parole Board is actually run by Adrian Bennett, who is a you know, by I think by anybody's definition, she's a person who believes in in fairness. Um. And

now the whole state has gone blue. Uh. So we're post election and we're all hoping that Governor Northam is going to do the right thing and that either the Parole Board will see clear to send the ends back to Germany to live out his days making speeches, writing books as he does contributing to society. I've made the point again and again that in these thirty three plus years in prison, and how many fractions have you had, none, not not one, not a single infraction in thirty three

and a half years. That's virtually impossible. You must not go to the TV room at night. I work out a lot. You know, I've been told it's either unique or nearly unique by prison staff members. But of course you know that's all well and good. Ultimately, what really matters, though, is you know I didn't do this. I did not kill Derrek and Nancy Hayson. I didn't find out about it then, so afterwards, you know, my only role in this was this terrible mistake of trying to save Elizabeth's

life from execution back then in the electric chair. The key reason to let me go is not because I didn't break any prison rules. The key reason to let me go it's because I did not do this. It's not just me saying it, it's the DNA saying. We have two national experts and a bunch of law enforcement officers who have looked at the DNA and the evidence in this case, and they've all come to the same conclusion. It wasn't me. The evidence pointed to other men who

have not been identified. There's blood and DNA from two other men at that crime scene, as well as Elizabeth's fingerprints and her sad friend of hers, and and of course she said she did it. That's obviously not been enough. What do you think's missing? No, I mean, I think in any other state that would have been enough. If there's not in any other state, you're in this state.

What do you think's missing? Um? Political courage? And I think now after the election on November five, when the Democrats took over the General Assembly here in Virginia, there's no longer any reason for the Democratic and the Democratic Parole Board for fear releasing me. And I hope that will happen soon. It's been a long time. My petition has been pending for more than three years, so it's time to make a decision. Well, it's way past time to make a decision. But can I give you a

couple of thoughts about this? Oh, I just say this from having been in the system for a long long time. What has to happen is we've got to find a way to give them a face saving way out of this, a face saving way to say yes instead of no. Now you're before the pardoning parole board, right, what is the narrative to them where their currency is met in saying okay, enough enough, too much is too much? This is too much. We need to turn this man loose.

What is an air that they've not heard before? Because you've got to give these people something to hang their heat on so they can defend it when they're asked questions about it, so there is a public position they can take its face saving. This is a high profile case, which is sweet poison. This high profile and everybody knows about it. That's a good news. Everybody knows about it, that's a bad news. We've gotten to a place now, I believe where Republican governors have granted dozens or even

hundreds of clemencies and pardons. President Obama and his last flourish they're granted seventeen hundred and there's not a peep from any side. There's nobody going, oh, these crazy people are letting all these nobody. It's not a thing anymore. I don't think it's even makes you know in the end, this case, because it was a high profile case maybe

it makes the news for a day or two. And let me just interrupted briefly and say that they're locking us up for count While they're doing that, I want to address deep briefly Dr Phill's questions about a narrative that could be used to change people's mind. None of the people who are making decision today are in any way responsible for the mistakes that were originally made thirty

three years ago. Um, they're fixing the problem. And the United States has advanced in those thirty three years and the issue of wrongtal convictions is now much more widely understood. Back then, the idea that somebody in this might get convicted would seems far fetched. I think nowadays it is

much more widely accepted. The other thing is is that there have been some high profile wroncal convictions here in Virginia prior to mine, most recently the Norfolk four case which received national attention, which also involved false confessions and d n A. And I think that's the narrative that I think they can hang their hat on in this

particular case. In this case, all they really had was my false confession and the type of blood at the crime scene and the prosecutor told the jury twenty six times that the only person who could have left that type of blood was the answering and he made a mistake because they simply didn't have DNA back then. Thirty years later, the DNA test that type of blood and it turns out it's somebody else's. It was not possible to know this back then. They did the best they could.

Back in the they did the best they could with the technology they had. All they had was blood typing. But now they have new technology, DNA, and it turns out that yes, that was type of blood at the crime scene, but it was not my type of blood, the population of type of blood. But the DNA is different. It's somebody else's blood. So that's the narrative that I

would say can swing this. That's pretty damn compelling. Ultimately, every we wrongful conviction is about admitting that somebody screwed up big time, and you know, there's only so far you can help them with that. They're gonna happen. Man up and and and admit that. But the people who are being asked to fix the problem now, we're not the people who made a mistake back then. This is a governor who was in college when I was in college. Okay, he was a few years ahead of me, but he's

not responsible to what happened back then. He was going to med school when all when my life was exploding. Thank you for using TTL, and now I can share with you some really, really incredible news. The Ends sing has finally been granted parole. I heard this news. I was on a train to Delaware to give a talk about Criminals us AS Reform, and I got a call

about five o'clock in the afternoon. Now, I had recently done an interview with Rolling Stone Magazine and at the very end of the interview, the reporter asked me, do you ever cry? And I said, truthfully, no, only at the movies. Well, I'm not ashamed to tell you now that I didn't make it through that phone call without breaking down. And um, it's funny because I called the sheriff not too long at first, I called Amanda Knox.

And Amanda his course has done work on behalf of Yen's for quite a while now and did a whole season of her podcast, The Truth about True Crime on The Ends Are in Case. And I called Amanda and we cried together end to such a special person. And I mean every you know, everyone who's instance deserved to get out as soon as possible. It's just like this.

I mean, I've just been on the other you know, end of the line again talking about the day that he gets out and like knowing that, like I know what it feels like to like fantasize about that day and not knowing it it's going to happen. And I didn't know what was gonna happen for him. Um wow. And now and now you know, he has asked me to you know, be his tame sister, which is amazing

because I'm way younger than him. But it's like he said it, like I'm gonna need you to be my big sister and helped walk me through this like process of being a free person. And I was like, dude, I'm there. And now I guess it's really exciting. I think that he may end up getting you know, pardons um parts from the outside of the side. Yes, he has so much more life than he can live. He can fight the fight from out here now and he can do it with help and he cannot be alone.

It's it's a big difference. So yeah, I'm just so excited for him, um, getting him out with what needed to happen. I can't remember that on my friends. Yes here, Amanda, where are you right now? Um? I'm actually standing outside of the Ailetic Club. I was about to go jog on the elliptical one like now, I don't even know what the fucking do with myself. Okay, UM, well, if you get any news, let me know. Called me, I'll call.

I'll serve you in an advice versa. Okay, because I'm so so happy for him, and I just hope that he's okay right now and and that he's not alone right now. M hm. You know. Rachel Ryan is one of the hosts of Small Town, Big Crime, a deep dive cerio podcast about Yen Zering and the Hasten murders, including an investigation into the two unknown sources of DNA at the crime scene. You can find it wherever you

get your podcast, but don't wait, subscribe now. She was just about to interview Chip Harding when the news had started trickling into us and the details were still a little unclear. The sound was rolling on Chip as he took my call. I don't put my phone over here. Thanks than Ja. You know, it's kind of breaking right now. I've called rosen Field. He hadn't heard barn of that just sort of thing and you got that. Um okay, oh, you know he's been for roll and being that both

he turned out ice and be deported. I guess she's going back to Canada, I guess, and he'll be going back to Germany and Steve Rosendale Nan didn't notified with so Ens knows, I mean, because she's gonna thank you from you and so I guess he's been too old. It's kind of odd way to handle something like this, but it's still keep it as a secret right now. No, No, it's it's the Yeah, they associated press as it now and it's confirmed. Yeah, poor, Oh my god, it's incredible.

Watch and I'm actually I'm talking to you Jack because I spirst spoken to Amanda. I don't know. It's literally client like a baby. Yeah, where you gonna get beat? They get rid of interview me on camera soon. Let me come help see you a little while. Baby, Are you feel right? I'm astantic? I mean, what a great thing happened. He's been locked up in thirty three years. Um, he's missed his twenties, his thirties, in his forties, so it's time. It's time to let him go. Um. Now

she's also been granted parole. We understand. I understand she has been granted parole, and you know, as a law enforcement author, I don't I don't have any objection to that either. If she was in fact, um sexually abused by her mom, you know, if that was the case. I think if it had gone that route back when she originally went to trial, this whole thing went to turn that differently than it did. I mean, this came out in sort of a stream. I mean, this was

reported by the media before you were notified. Was Yeah. I immediately I got a call from someone in the media asking my reaction, and I didn't know to what, and he told me, and I immediately called his primary attorney, Stephen Rosenfield, who's given probably four thousand hours on his case, and he had not heard. So we were quite shocked that it came out through the media first. But we're not complaining because it appears he's going one hole and

that is I mean, you've put years in hours how long? Yeah, I've probably put it a thousand hours in on it. Now. I'm not looking for any credit this. Tons of people have given this young man hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of hours what cause I believe, Yeah, it's an emotional thing. Thank you so much. I am beyond happy to announce that Yen's is officially out of ice custody and out of custody period, and he's finally back home in his home country of Germany, which he hasn't seen or, come

to think of it, he hasn't even seen it. Tree ponder that for a second of any kind since, And just to put some context behind that, the fucking Berlin Wall was up the last time he was there, and we were all smacked ab in the middle of the threat of full scale nuclear war between the United States and Russia. But anyway, YenS is finally able to make the most of his life, and I know that all of us that have played roles large and small in

his newfound freedom can't wait to celebrate with him. I'll leave you with the remainder of our original interview, and of course the closing arguments, which I must say sounds a hell of a lot better coming from what we

now know is a Freeman's mouth. I had a really really la who was essentially the spark like you mentioned, But I also had really really fantantic lass writing for me, including um Foremark Deputy Attorney General Deale, Star Marshall Um also Deal doll And who's in the movie, and for Steve Rosensfield who is stuff with me for I don't know so many years, and Steve Hawton. You know, there's you know, lawyers have a lot of blame, but there

are some really really human beings looking as lawyers. And then you know, i'd be stopping wonderful people like you and and n Prisham and and not seen, you know, people who really have no impertinent better things to do with our life to worry about me, you know, stepping into my life and trying to help me. That's the really really impot that's given me hope, and it gives me hope. Yeah, trying to hold on a little while longer. Um, you see what it This can be resolved in some

way super fun before days, you know. Um, For I can tell you exactly eleven thousand, nine hunty five days, okay, eleven thou um every two years, eight months and a long days and it hasn't been easy, but that's just stared me. He's won for people behind me. You do have an extraordinary team, including the leaders of Germany past and present. I want to tell the audience there's there's the movie Killing for Love and the book is a far far better thing by Yenser and Bill Sizemore, A

far far better thing. Um. And then this is part of the show that we've become known for. It's I think everyone's favorite part of the show, it's mine. And this is a part of the show where I get to thank our guests. UM. In this case, of course John Grisham, John, thanks for being here. And Sheriff Harding, Sheriff Chif Harving album Wall County. Of course you, Yen's thanks for participating in this and sharing your thoughts and

experience and educating our audience. I want to turn it over to each of you just for brief closing thoughts, and of course we'll end with you Yen. Um anyway, John, Um, final thoughts as far as uh yeah, I've said it before, These rawful confection stories are always compelling and tempting from my point of view. Two what about them? To tell the fantastic stories as said as they are, uh, but to also hopefully raise awareness. I hope there's a happy ending.

We believe there's gonna be a happy ending because we're all working hard with the game plan to get YenS out and they getting back to Germany, and Jens and I have this, uh kind of a running gag that one day soon we're gonna be drinking a beer together in Munich of october Fest I'm coming to and by the way, he gonna have the same deal. So you know, I don't I don't want to make you not feel special, but we got the same We're all invited. We're all

invited to october Fest. That's right, um, Sheriff Harding final thoughts. Until I got involved in this kind of work, I always thought that you were found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. But it looks like in America, once you're found guilty, to be found innocent or pardon, it almost has to be your innocent beyond a shadow of a doubt. The

standard is way too high. It's shameful for me to have fifty years in the justice system and to see the pushback, not just in this case, but I think I've read three or four cases from prosecutors and law enforcement that don't man up and step up and admit they make mistakes and seek the truth. And no one has ever held accountable in the first two cases that Brandon Garrett examined, UH, in many cases prosecutors withheld exculpatory evidence,

so did law enforcement. And that one single case that one officer ever go to trial or spend one day in jail. So we can't police ourselves. How do we anticipate the public is going to have the confidence in us to police them? And now, UM, saving the best for last again, your final thoughts, UM, I think it's important for your audience, UM, to realize that they are estimated one hundred thousands LU convicted. First, there's in the United States. Um, that's a small city, and I'm far

from the only one. I'm I'm really, really so grateful to the three of you, John Vision to Parting, and Taste from for drawing attention to my case. But let's not forget the other victims of miscarriages of justice. One of the things that I really would hope for is that if I'm ever released, I can maybe help draw attention to all those other people and work towards systemic changes so that things like this don't happen to other people in YouTube. This is, you know, something to think about.

There's a hundred thousands innocent people and driven in the United States. Um, somebody should be really and the audience take them flowing. I want to thank you for getting this opportunity to speak today talk about my case. Thank you. Yes, you have all my respect. I look forward to working with you and I'll see you for October Fest. Don't forget to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you get

your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the INNESSS Project and I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wardis. The music on the show is by three time Oscar

nominic composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on fcebook at Rnful Conviction podcast Rnful Conviction with Jason flam is a production of Lava for Good podcasts and association with signal company Number one