In nineteen eighty five, Derek and Nancy Haysm were found brutally stabbed to death in their Bedford County, Virginia home. When their daughter, Elizabeth Haysm became a prime suspect. She and her boyfriend Jen Zuring, the son of a German diplomat, fled together on an international run from this double homicide. When Athoris caught up with them in London. YenS followed through on his promise in this scenario to use his diplomatic community in order to save the love of his life, Elizabeth,
from the electric chair, so he falsely confessed to the murders. Now, Yen's had type O blood and this was before DNA testing, so the type O blood founded the scene only served to corroborate his involvement, leading to his conviction. Elizabeth was convicted as an accessory. When that type O blood that convicted Yen's was finally tested for DNA, it excluded him.
As the source.
However, this was still not enough for the Commonwealth of Virginia to admit their mistake and set him free. On February fourth, twenty nineteen, we released an interview with En Zurring, along with two of his most ardent supporters, the legendary author and former defense attorney and Innocents Project board member John Grisham and Albemarle County, Virginia Sheriff Chip Harding. Since then, as many of you now know, the en Zurring situation
has improved immensely. In this episode, we will re release much of the original interview, along with some new content, including an excerpt from an interview that I did with doctor Phil in which we spoke with Yen's again from Buckingham Correctional Facility. We will of course keep you updated on this ongoing story. This is Ronfuel Conviction.
Hello, this is a prepage get it call from an innate department of Buckingham coersional to accept it, call plus zero to refuse this call. Y call is from a correction facility and it's subject to monitoring and recording. Thank you for.
Having Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm.
It's me.
I'm your host, and today we have an episode that is going to rock your world.
We have three guests today.
I'm gonna save the best for last, but we have John Grisham in the studio with us. John, Welcome, delighted to be here. And Sheriff Chip Harding of Albamarle County. Yes, sir, good to be here Virginia. And on the phone is Yen Surring, one of the most remarkable people I know and one of the most extraordinary cases of injustice that we've ever covered on this show. So, Yen's I always say, I'm I'm happy you're here, but I'm sorry you're here.
Thank you for having me. I really appreciate this, stadent, and thanks to Chip John as well.
So this is a case that takes us back to the eighties, believe it or not, a case that has all the makings of a John Grisham novel. Actually, because this goes back to Yen's when you were first an exchange student from Germany, a brilliant young scholar. From everything I'm told this is a Jefferson scholar, a freshman at the University of Virginia. YenS, do you want to take us back there and tell us how this started?
Sure, this was a nineteen eighty four in the five I arrived at the University of Virginia as a freshman called christ students there, and I met a young woman there who was two and a half years older than I was, Eliab, and we were both in the same dormitory. She had entered the university because she had.
Had an adventuress.
She had gone to an English boarding school and run away with her girlfriends to Europe, things like that, and so she came to Uva quite a bit.
Older than the rest of us in that dormitory. And I was not an American citizen. My father was a German diplomat, That's why I was living in the United States. And her family came from South Africa and from Canada, so.
We were.
Drawn to each other as being foreigners, not Americans.
And in the course of that false semester in nineteen eighty four, we fell in love. And you know, it was quite a surprise to everybody else from the dormitory because she was very experienced and very mature, and I was, I guess.
A nerd, an uber nerd and virgin to boot it.
So she was my first girlfriend.
You're a German uber version nerd. It's quite a combination, Yen. And she was a beautiful young woman, a striking woman who you know, anyone in your situation would have probably fallen head over heels for considering the circumstances. But it was of course a faithful star across love affair, yes, and.
It was a very short lived love affair as well. Three months after we started dating, or maybe four months, we went to Washington, d C. Spend the weekend together, and in the course of that weekend, she told me that she was still.
Using drugs, which she had previously.
Told me she had to stop doing, and that she needed to use our rental car to run some drugs from Washington, d C.
To her dealer, who was also the university student.
Back in Charlottesville. And I wanted to come along, but she wouldn't let me because she said that I was such a.
Nerd what people would want to do business around me?
So she drove off in the car by herself and came back eight hours later untild me. She had killed her parents, and she said that.
The drugs had made her do it and they had deserved it anyway, and if I didn't help her, she would be executed.
She would be back then they used electric too, she said that they would try her. She said that I should be her alibi and tell the police she was with me in.
Washington, and I told.
Her that that would never ever work, because the.
Police never believed boyfriends or husbands.
Or wives and people like that.
So I came up with this brilliant idea, based on Charles Dickens a Tale of Two Cities, of all things, I would take the blame for her. I would take the rap for her and save her life. That was based on a character in the Charles Dickens novel Sydney Carton.
Who did that in this novel.
The difference was that in the novel that particular character.
Actually did get fixed.
Whereas my father was a German diplomat, I thought I had diplomatic community. I thought that I could take the blame for her crime, and all that would happen with me was about be sent back to Germany and put in prison there, in trivenile prison for about ten years. And I thought that giving ten years of my life was worth saving your life from the electric too.
Yeah, it's sort of a twisted nobility. People do crazy things for love all the time. And we were talking about this earlier again, and I said that such a strange fate that you happen to have only been with one woman, and she turned out to be the devil.
You know, it's calling her the devil is a little oversimplified. She was later diagnosed with a very severe personality disorder, so she actually had serious mental health issues. And of course she claimed that her mother had sexually.
Abused her with the.
Knowledge and cooperation of her father, and you know, there's some indications that that may have.
Actually been true.
Of course we'll never know. For Shore, now, she was a troubled young woman.
As things developed, you initially were not suspects, but then at some point you decided to make a getaway. And this is back in the days when for people don't remember in the eighties, you could sort of travel the world under a different name and it wasn't so tightly monitored or regulated, and so you guys went around the world and ultimately ended up in England. That's when things began to go wrong, right, because you were ultimately arrested
for passing bad checks. And then we get to the point where the false confessions come in, or your false confession.
So the police took both Elizabeth and me back from the jails to the police station and they actually wrote into the police station love book that I was to be held in Kaninakado. In other words, I was to be isolated from the outside world and not given access to my lawyer.
And that's exactly what they did.
For four days. They interrogated me four days, many many hours, at dozens and dozens and dozens of hours. And then finally, on the fourth day, I decided to keep my promise to Elizabeth that I'd made fifteen months earlier, and I decided to take the blame for what she did. And that's what I did. I told them this story that she and I had cooked up. And of course, that false confession contained many mistakes that the real pillar would
not have made. I described the clothing of one victim incorrectly, and I placed the other victim in the wrong room, And there were numerous mistakes like that which you should have learned the police to the fact that I might
not be telling the truth. In addition to that, of course, at that time, the police who were interrogating me were in possession of an FBI crime scene profile by one of the people invented crime scene profiling, one of the leading special agents, and that profile said that the crime had been committed by a woman in a close relationship to the victims, and of course I was a man, and I didn't know that they did at the one time for twenty minutes, so they should have known that
the story I was telling them was not true. And then, of course the other thing that happened is that just a couple of hours after I told the police that I did it, Elizabeth told the police that he did it. She said, I did it myself. I got off on it.
I did it myself. I got off on it. But by that stage the police had decided that I was the guilty one, so they had actually let her withdraw that confession, which is hilarious in a way because they found hosting the Prince at the crime scene and not mine.
And you know, it's quite incredible that they let her with god that confession, but they did, and so they ended up charging me with being the and they talked being an accomplice, and in nineteen ninety they put me on trial and convicted me of something that I did not do.
And I do want to bring John and Chip into the conversation too, just to talk about this scenario that took place in England and the immediate aftermath of it. John, you were a criminal defense lawyer in your younger years.
Yeah, it goes back to a confession, false confession. There's no other proof to convict the ends of the murder, so all they have is a false confession. And with any false confession case, what you would hope that the authorities do is once they managed to extract the confession and whatever tactics they used to do that is that they will match it up to the physical evidence to
see if it in fact matches. In false confessions virtually never match up because there are too many details specifics in the murder, the method of murder, the place, the blood, the blood splatter, the clothing, the room, whatever, there's a whole fingerprints, footprints, and there's a long list of items
that you know. Police go through any investigation, and with a false confession, it's usually fairly simple to realize once you start matching the confession given by somebody who wasn't there, it's impossible for them to remember all the details that the real killer would actually know, where he left the bodies, how he killed them. Well you know who did what, what was on the kitchen table, what was knocked over,
what was spilt? These are all you know. It's fairly common common sense, and in Yen's case, you know, there were so many discrepancies between his confession and the actual physical crime scene. You just want to scream and say, why didn't somebody put these together and match them up.
And what frustrates me is when you get to trial and you have what you think should be a competent defense lawyer who cannot walk through the confession step, bust up bus step and show the discrepanies between the confession and the actual crom scene. I'm not sure if this was done or attempted in Yen's case, but it certainly was not effective. And so that's what we always start in a false confession case is let's match it up with the proof, and it never matches up.
It never does. And this was a crazy case because, on top of all the other factors that led to his wrongful conviction, I think there was an inherent bias. I can't prove this because of the fact that it was Bedford County, which ironically is the county that lost more soldiers in World War Two to the Germans per capital than anywhere else in the United States. It's why the World War Two memorial is there and so I think that there's at least an argument that the odds
would stacked against the ends. From the beginning, I want to bring Sheriff Harding into the conversation. Sheriff Harding, We've been in law enforcement for several decades, four decades, right, I mean, his resume is nuts when you look at the number of accreditations he has and the number of awards he's won, and he's one of the most accomplished people in law enforcement the United States. And you've dived into this case with all guns blazing, so to speak,
and you've examined this evidence eighteen ways till Sunday. Is it theoretically possible that Ian's committed this crime?
Is it possible?
I mean he could have been dropped down with us from a spaceship and done it. But is it logical he was there when these murders occurred? Extremely unlikely he was there. There's nothing that puts him there other than this false confession. And as John was saying earlier, the confession didn't match the crime scene when you look at it. I mean there was some huge discrepancies.
That weren't followed up.
You had a young investigator, his first homicide case she'd ever investigated, and I'm reading a transcript going, you got to be kidneyed. You didn't do any follow up. Plus he didn't tape the confession. So when he gets to court, very skillfully, the prosecutor only asked questions that were consistent with the crime scene in the event and omitted the inconsistencies. And as John was pouring out, he had a very very ineffective defense attorney that didn't bring that to the attention of the jury.
As far as details that corroborate the confession, at the time of trial, the prosecutor pointed out to the jury twenty six times that the police.
Found some O type blood at the crime scene, and that I.
Was the only person involved in the case who had Type old blood. The victims did not have TYPEO blood, and my girlfriend did.
Not have type of blood.
The only person involved in the case was type old blood was me, is what the prosecutor told the jury twenty six times.
And it would.
Take another two and a half decades to find out through DNA testing that indeed that was type of blood that was left by somebody else. So the fact that seemed to corroborate the concession at the time of the trial is now shown to.
Actually prove the confession.
You could talk more about that, Sheriff Harding, what percentage of the population has this type of blood? I think it's about forty five percent, isn't it. It's pretty high, right, So I mean that really is I mean, it's a ridiculous thing to try to pin anything on, but yet the prosecutor mentioned it twenty sixth time. It's also worth mentioning that Yens's lead trial lawyer was disbarred a few years after your wrongful conviction, and he was disbarred because
of mental illness. Drugs were a factor in all of this, and it was shown that he was suffering from this during the time of your trial. So it's just another important thing to recognize. This is a nightmare that no one can imagine living through. You had been in jail in England for quite some time before you even came to trial. You had nothing in your life experience that would prepare you for any of this, and now here you are in the grip of the justice system in Virginia.
It's sort of an arch villain, right And what was this like for you to go through this.
At that stage in nineteen ninety, I had already been in prison for four years, fighting expeditions from England to the United States. For most of those four years, I was convinced that all my lawyers were convinced and everybody thought that I would definitely be sentenced to death. So I spent four years in prison in effect psychologically on death row. Everybody, including my own team, told me that I had no chance of avoiding the electric too, and
then at the last minute that was avoided. We went an appeal as the European for the Human Rights and I was brought back to America. And that sort of thing has an effect on you psychologically, living in prison for four years, believing that you're gonna die, put increasingly in the electric two and I got brought back to Virginia. Everybody hated me, everybody was convinced I was guilty, and it was really scary, and I did not handle it well. I did not handle it well.
But again you.
Have to put this against the background of my having just spent three years under comminent breadth of death, then coming into the new atmosphere and having to see Elizabeth Haysen, a woman that that sacrificed myself for get up, understand, and told you of herself and tell all these lies to put me away in prison. And when I say that she toljured herself, that's not just the claim I make. Twenty six years later she actually admitted that in a
newspaper interview. She admitted that she toatured herself at that trial. But at that time nobody knew that, and nobody cared. They just wanted the witness at mean, and she did that job, she me, and that and my own confession and the type of blood that's what did me in.
Then the sock print, of course, was a ridiculous piece of evidence that no serious person should have ever even it shouldn't been allowed in court, and it shouldn't have been in the way that was done was very devious and tariff harding. I want to talk to you because it's interesting to me that you know, YenS has assembled this remarkable team and it's a great credit to him.
And you're an interesting character in this because you're a conservative guy or a guy who's obviously law and order guy, and yet you have devoted yourself selflessly and spent time that you could have been doing anything else to hundreds of hours to this case. So can you talk about that, and then can you talk about the actual forensic evidence?
Right?
Well, Hiss attorney Stephen Rosenfield asked me to take a look at part of the pardon petition to see if I could find a way to strengthen it or to see if he's miss missed.
Something in it.
And I told Steve at the beginning, I felt like Ems was guilty based on everything I'd seen. I know Governor Kane had tried to send him back to Germany. I was opposed to that because I felt like he was guilty. He shouldn't have been given any special consideration just because he was a German. But so Steve gave me the case, said, won't take but a couple of hours. Well, I ended up taking a bunch of stuff home at night.
My wife thought I lost my mind because I spent basically the whole weekend the dining room table covered with material that Steve gave me. I said, oh my god, this is nothing like what was represented. And in conclusion, I ended up writing a nineteen page letter to the governor breaking down the closing arguments of the case. You know, it's the strength of the government's case, last bite at the Apple, and I.
Broke that down.
And then after that was published, I had another investigator to work with me for twenty five years, said, let me help form an FBI agent that I know that I worked another case with jumped in and one of the original investment bedroom investigator said he felt like Yen's had been railroaded and was innocent also. So the four of us have been working in collectively, we've given a couple thousand hours. And you want to talk briefly about
to forensics. The old blood was very powerful, as was mentioned, and I will say if I was on that jury, I would have convicted him based on it the way the evidence was represented so skillfully by the prosecutor. The old blood now we know absolutely no one can test the fact that it's not inserting. He's not been detected in the crime scene. But two other males, one with ad blood and one with old blood, had been detected in the crime scene and we have not identified those people.
In my opinion, Bedford County should consider having an open homicide investigation. Then you look at the next piece of evidence that was pretty powerful.
The Commonwealth.
Originally got a certificate of analysis from the State Bureau Forensics saying that the shoe in sox size was consistent with a six and a half to seven and a half woman shoe a man five or six. Well, they originally had and this just blew my mind. They originally had a small female as a prime suspect in this thing.
And the prosecutor wrote a letter and we got a copy of it attached with a draft affid David saying that he wanted this woman's blood, finger prints and shoe impressions because her shoe was consistent with what was in the crime scene. Now you turn around and go to trial, you don't hear anything. The defense attorney brings nothing up.
They bring in a non qualified individual to testify. He did a what we like to refer to as a magic trick, created an overlay of an impression of Yen's foot and said it basically fits like a.
Glove, reminds you of oja.
And he was even instructed he could not testify as an expert. But when you look at the closing arguments of the prosecutor, he says he can.
Only fit one man.
One man in the world could fit and he points at yensuring and we know that's hooplaw, that's junk evidence. And the same man that put this on in front of the jury, Robert Halett, did the same thing in another case where a man was given the death penalty, and thank god, it took a few years. He did not get executed. DNA proved he absolutely didn't do it. So here you have the same junk science being used again.
There was a jura that gave an affidavit to the attorneys that said it was tied six' six in the jury. Room they wanted to take a look at the sock and shoe evidence again and he said that's what turned the.
Tide and we know now that's. Ludicrous there are really two.
Parts you got a false confession and you also have a false. Alibi you've Got elizabeth whose claims she stayed at the hotel room and When yen's came. Back she, Said YenS comes back that night after midnight and a sheet covered in blood from head to toe in the rental, vehicle And YenS asked her to clean it up with coca.
Cola yet that vehicle was tested with Luminol And i've never had a case where blood had been, present Even bleach had got it all, out no indication of any blood at, all and was testimony from the folks that the rental agency that the car was an amaculate, condition no signs of Any coca.
Cola we have since.
Learned and digging in the little limited, information we can see that there was actually blood found in the trap of the shower of the master, bedroom and that shower wall illuminated like fourth Of. July so it gives us impression as, investigators at least one of the participants in this homicide took a, Shower so why would he be covered in blood from head to. Toe it's, Impossible Sheriff.
Harting on top of all the other, evidence AND fbi agents Like Ed salzbach who came, forward and others to say that there had been evidence that had been hidden or not turned, over not disclosed in the way that the law mandates that it must. Be there's also in chapter eighteen of the, book a far far better. Thing there's the story of the car in the woods, right which would, again if you would think that this alone would be enough to Send yen's, home you, know And i'm going to quote from the book.
Again you.
Know in twenty, Eleven Tony, buchanan the retiredner of A lynchburg area auto transmission, shop said that three to five months after the murders in nineteen eighty, five a car was towed into his shop for. Repairs it's undercarriage matted with grass and, mud as if it had been sitting in the woods for a. While the tow truck driver Told buchanan the two Door chevrolet belonged to quote some college.
Kids and here's the important. Part he said in this swarm statement that when he looked, inside he saw that the floorboard on the driver's side was quote full of dry. Blood beside the console between the front, seats also covered in dried blood was a single edged hunting type, knife the same type that was used to kill The. Haysums Now i'm sitting, Here i've got chills just reading. That and you, know he this same guy testified or swore and affidated that the ends was not one of the
people who returned the. Car elizabeth was one and somebody else was the. Other but yet here we go.
Again, yeah he, claimed it's just a, shame so much time has. Passed he claimed that he called and spoke To Ricky, gardner who was the lead investigator and now chief deputy In, bedford and told him about. This Gardner denazat says it didn't, happen so so much time has. Passed some of the investigators did work that, lead and we kind of ran it out because time was not on our. Side we tried to find any, documentation material checks and all that kind of. Stuff the banks just
don't have it from back in nineteen eighty. Five but if they'd been followed up on properly at the, time same, way if they had sent investigators to the hotel they'd stayed, at it had cleared it up right away That ens was.
There she.
Wasn't it was his story of what he purchased was consistent with the hotel bill which she said she purchased when she stayed there was very inconsistent way over with.
The bill showed in.
It and there were three or four more things That elizabeth says that occurred we can disprove with her. Alibi but the bottom line that most frustrating for me is everything that has come out of that woman's mouth is provable that she's lying where it's highly suspect she's. Lying we've looked very hard and everything At YenS has, said and we have not caught him in a.
Line we were.
Talking about a case in which a couple was brutally, murdered stabbed multiple, times each of them very bloody crime, scene rich with biological evidence from the actual. Killers in, theory you also had a logical explanation for, this in That elizabeth had said multiple times that she had been sexually abused by her, mother that her father may have been involved in this in some. Way there was a
clear motive in that. Sense you had, drugs which no one ever claimed that you were on, drugs but we know that she was doing hard drugs and that she was running with a very nefarious crew back then and would have had access to the type of people who
might commit a murder like. This people who knew you back, then including some people for law, enforcement said that it was Even elizabeth, said it was ludicrous to think that you could have committed a brutal crime like this because you're not a physically imposing, guy have had to overpower to. Adults none of it ever made any, sense and there
should have. Been it should have been relatively. Simple and now of, course so many people have weighed in on, this Including Chuck, reid one of the original investigators in the, case who has said in emphatic terms that it could not have been, you that he doesn't.
Believe it was.
You and yet we still find ourselves in this situation where we're still all trying to get you.
Out it's been, very very difficult for, me especially over the last two and a half years since The parting petition was submitted based on THE dna. Evidence it's been really difficult for me because for thirty years we thought there was NO dna evidence in this case that could prove, minisence and then after thirty years in, prison it was ACTUALLY i on the, phone worked my, Lawyer Steve, rosensfield
flipping through some old forensic. REPORTS i found THE na and you, know that's what the parton petition is based. On years, later we cannot get anybody to act on. It and, that's you, know the thirty years of wishing FOR dna and THEN i finally get THE dna and then nobody is going to listen more accept it or do anything about.
It maybe you guys can try to give me some insight as to why this case is such a difficult one to resolve in the face of such overwhelming evidence of. Innocence how do you explain?
This i'll touch ON i can't explain, it AND i think you Know jason from your work in the innocence. World it's as frustrating as this, is it's not. Unusual we've had cases before where we have to fight tooth and nail to OBTAIN dna testing for one of our, clients and we get THE dna, testing all the objections of the local prosecutors and local law, enforcement we get THE dna, testing it clears our client slash, inmate, whatever and so he's, Cleared. Okay then it takes a year
procedurally to get him. Out oftentimes the prosecutor will, say, WELL i don't really believe THE dna. Results we're going to try you, again and so they bring him back to the local jail where they can keep him forever. Again as frustrating as it, Is i'm ashamed to, say it's not that. Unusual most frustrating for me is the law.
Enforcement i'm in law, enforcement AND i Hope i'm respecting law. Enforcement i'm a sitting, sheriff and yet the sitting sheriff In Bedford county refuses to meet with me and even discuss the. Case the lead investigator won't meet with the four of us who've given thousands.
Of hours pro bone or we don't have anything in.
It we're just looking for. Justice we asked for one hour and he says he doesn't have. Time, however we do have him caught on, videotape say in a few years, ago this happened thirty years, ago he was convicted in.
Court why do we need to go any further?
Then AND i think that's the, attitude which is it's really shut down from an investigative. Standpoint we've not had access to the investigative files or any further testing Because i'm out of my jurisdiction and getting absolutely no cooperation From.
Bedford, yeah they won't even allow you to test THE dna of two guys that we know are in for committing similar crimes in another county In, virginia right. Who we have no idea whether they committed this crime or, not but there's some reason to believe that they.
There these two.
Guys knife demand multiple times.
To death within a few, days and that far from The haysom, residents whether those victims were, located and these two, folks one of them at least was acquord to his background that we've read was involved in heavy drugs in The lynchburg, area as we Believe elizabeth. Was she was a omitted heroin. User AND dna should be in the data. Bank they're both doing life for that. Murder and we simply, asked would you take those profiles compare them to the crime,
scene and the state says can't do. It the jurisdiction where they offense. Occurred they have to request.
It and to our, knowledge they're not doing, anything.
Which is just, remarkable right when you think about the idea that they just refuse to test something that can only prove like one or, another either these guys did it or they. Didn't why wouldn't we want to?
Know we want to know from an investigative, standpoint do we want to keep following those two guys as a lead or can they be excluded based on THE dna Very spady would take about three or four minutes.
To compare those bar. Codes it's so.
Frustrating i'm used to working in my own. Jurisdiction if i want something to. TESTED i Asked glad to do.
It they do. It IF i want to search, ONE i get.
It IF i have witnesses and we have two or three people that need to be interview in this case that refuse to cooperate, WHATSOEVER i don't have any grandeur authority to service a poena on. Them so IT'S i really feel for The interisti's. PROJECT i see what they go. Through now now That i'm on the other side of the, FENCE i feel like you're operating with both hands tied
behind your. Back everything's working against. You so you've got to put a lot more work and effort into it than you really should and try to get to the, truth which we all should, want but apparently we don't all always want the truth and.
Justice SOMETHING i want to touch on BEFORE i turn over To john for a, second which is that back in two thousand and eight or, nine with the support Of Bishop sullivan and other luminaries both religious and political, Figures Governor kine granted a conditional pard AND i guess who'd say it would have allowed you to go back To germany and then as literally as you were packing your, bags the new governor came In governor, McDonell and he revoked for the first time and then two hundred and
thirty four year history Of, virginia he revoked the previous governor's order and decided that you would be kept in.
PRISON i think In yan's, case though we are pressing ahead cautiously optimistic that the right people are listening to. Us we are almost sanctimonious in our belief that we are right and we're not gonna, stop slow, down or be. Quiet and you, know we have several avenues. Left it's not hopeless by any. Means we don't view it as. Hopeless we think we can smell.
Victory john was just speaking about the multiple avenues. Available most innocence cases have only one real, option and that's a, pardon and that's usually a full parton and that makes it very difficult because somebody has to admit that they made a terrible. Mistake my case is a little bit unusual and that the state actually has thille. Options they have the option of an absolute, pardon which would be to declare my innocence and actually admit what really.
Happened which was that this is a wrongful.
Conviction but they have twotter. Options they have a conditional, pardon which would be not to Say i'm actually, innocent just to say there's a lot of questions and a lot of, doubts.
You can't be.
Sure and then there's a third, option and that would be. Tart so one of the mystifying things about my case in comparison to other, cases is that they have a whole smorgus board of options to choose from full pardon or absolutely part conditional pardon and then through and they're choosing not to exercise any of these.
OPTIONS i recently met Doctor, phil, who before he became THE tv star that's known In love by, millions had been putting his various degrees in psychology and medicine to good use in his jury, consultancy business courtroom. Sciences Doctor, phil as you, know advocates for the wrongfully. Convicted he's been doing it for a long, time, so as you can, imagine we hit it off and decided to sit down
for an. Interview the crazy thing was during that, Interview yen's happened to call, me as he did over the last several, years not. Infrequently when he, called it turned out to be a really powerful meeting of the, minds and we sensed immediately that doctor phil might be able to help him and us work through this parole board stalemate that we've been stuck in for such an interminably long.
Time, Peter and you've been in how long?
Now thirty three, years six months and thirteen?
Days good? Lord what's the stumbling block with the appellate, courts with the people that have the ability to grant? Clemency what do they tell you is the reason you're still in. Jail that's one of the.
Problems we're not getting any. Communication the problem is is that from the very, beginning from the nineteen, eighties this was a very high profile, crime so a lot of politicians used it in political campaigns to get themselves elected and re elected basically by beating up on. Me the last instance of that was in late twenty, fifteen so
that lasted for twenty nine. Years one politician after another tried to carry the voters favor by saying That jenserring is a. Monster and then after thirty, years THE dna comes out and THE dna shows that the very same blood samples that they use to convict me with at my trial in nineteen ninety once they've BEEN dna tested turned out to be somebody else's, blood not, Mine and everybody In virginia who's been beating up on, me all the, politicians have been beating up on me for all these,
decades now looks stupid and it's, very very difficult to admit you've made a, mistake and that appears to be the problem In virginia if they admit That i'm, innocent and they're basically admitting that a long line of politicians going back to the nineteen, eighties which is a get.
Wrong that being, said, YES i don't want to leave this. Out we feel like there's light at the very near end of the. Tunnel potentially we won't believe it till we see. It but you, Know John grisham has made this a very personal, cause arguably the most Prominent virginian of these, times and so have so many. Others and The Parole board is actually run By Adrian, bennett who is a you, KNOW i think by anybody's, definition she's a person who believes in. Fairness and now the whole
state has gone. Blue so we're post election and we're all hoping That Governor northam is going to do the right, thing and that either the parole board will see clear to Send YenS back To germany to live out his days of making, speeches writing books as he, does contributing to. Society i've made the point again and again that in these thirty three plus years in, prison, yet how many infractions have you?
Had?
None not, one not a single infraction in thirty three and a half, Years, Maine that's virtually.
Impossible you must not go to THE tv room at. NIGHT i work out a.
Lot, yeah you, Know.
I've been told it's either unique or nearly unique by prison staff. Members but of course you know that's all well and. Good, ultimately what really, matters, though is you KNOW i didn't do. THIS i did not Kill derek And Nancy. HAYSEN i didn't find out about it then sol. Afterwards you, know my only role in this was this terrible mistake of trying to Save elizabeth's life from execution back then in the electric. Chair the key reason to let me go is not BECAUSE i didn't break any prison.
Rules the key reason to let me go is BECAUSE i did not do. This and it's not just me saying. It it's THE dna saying. It we have two national experts and a bunch of law enforcement officers who've looked at THE dna and the evidence in this, case and they've all come to the same. Conclusion it wasn't. Me the evidence pointed two other men who have not been. Identified there's blood AND dna from two other men at that crime, scene as well As elizabeth fingerprints and her soide friend of, hers and.
Of course she.
Said she did.
It that's obviously not been. Enough what do you think is?
Missing, NO i, MEAN i think in any other state that would have been.
Enough if you're not in any other, state you're in this. State what do you think's? Missing political?
Courage AND i think now after the election On november, fifth when The democrats took over The General assembly here In, virginia there is no longer any reason for The democratic govern A democratic parole board to fear releasing. Me AND i hope that'll happen. Soon it's been a long. Time my petition has been pending for more than three, years so it's time to make a.
Decision, well it's way past time to make a. Decision but CAN i give you a couple of thoughts about?
This?
Uh.
HUH i just say this from having been in the system for a, long long. Time what has to happen is we've got to find a way to give them a face saving way out of, this a face saving way to say yes instead of. No now you're before the pardoning parole, board, right what is the narrative to them where their currency is met in Saying, okay enough's? Enough too much is too? Much this is too. Much we need to turn this man. Loose what is in
there that they've not heard? Before because you've got to give these people something to hang their hat on so they can defend it when they're asked questions about, it so there is a public position they can take that's face. Saving this is a high profile, case which is sweet. Poison there's high profile and everybody knows about. It that's the good. News everybody knows about. It that's the bad.
News we've gotten to a place, NOW i believe Where republican governors have granted dozens or even hundreds of clemencies and. Pardons President obama and his last Flourish they're granted seventeen hundred and there's not a peep from any. Side there's nobody, Going, oh these crazy people are letting all these. Nobody it's not a thing. ANYMORE i don't think it's even makes you. Know in The ends's, case because it was a high profile, case maybe it makes the news for a day or. Two and let me just.
Interrupt it briefly and say that they're locking us up for Count while they're doing, THAT i want to address briefly Doctor phillip's question about a narrative that could be used to change people's. Minds none of the people who are making decision today are in any way responsible for the mistakes that were originally made thirty three years. Ago they're fixing the. Problem and The United states has advanced in those thirty three, years and the issue of wrontal
convictions is now much more widely. Understood back, then the idea that somebody in listen might get convicted would seem far. FETCHED i think nowadays it's much more widely. Accepted the other thing is is that there have been some high profile wrongtal convictions here In virginia prior to, mine most recently The norfolk four, case which received national, attention which also involved false confessions AND, dna AND i think that's the narrative THAT i think they can hang their hat
on in this particular. Case in this, case all they really had was my false confession and the type of blood at the crime. Scene and the prosecutor told the jury twenty six times that the only person who could have left that type of blood was, answering and he made a mistake because they simply didn't HAVE dna back. Then thirty years, later THEY dna test that type of blood and it turns out it's somebody. Else's it was not possible to know this back. Then they did the
best they. Could back in the nineteen eighties and nineteen ninety they did the best they could with the technology they. Had all they had was blood. Typing but now they have new TECHNOLOGY, dna and it turns out that, yes that was type of blood at the crime, scene but it was not my type of. Blood forty three percent of the population Have TYPE o, Blood but THE dna is. Different it's somebody else's. Blood so that's the narrative THAT i would say can swing.
This that's pretty damn.
Compelling, ultimately every wrongful conviction is about admitting that somebody screwed up big.
Time and you, know there's only so far you can help them with.
That they're going to.
Happen man up and admit. That but the people who are being asked to fix the problem now were not the people who made a mistake back. Then this is a governor who was in college WHEN i was in. College, okay he was a few years ahead of, me but he's not responsible for what happened back. Then he was going to mid school when my life was. Exploding thank you for USING, gtl.
And NOW i can share with you some, really really incredible. News the Ends surrey has finally been granted. PAROLE i heard this. NEWS i was on a train To delaware to give a talk with criminals US As reform AND i got a call about five o'clock in the. Afternoon, NOW i had recently done an interview With Rolling stone magazine and at the very end of the, interview the reporter asked, me do you ever? Cry AND i, said, truthfully,
no only at the. Movies, Well i'm not ashamed to tell you now THAT i didn't make it through that phone call without breaking. Down and it's funny BECAUSE i called the sheriff not too. Long at. FIRST i Called Amanda knox And amanda has course has done work on behalf Of yen's for quite a while now and did a whole season of her Podcast The Truth About True crime on The Ensuring. Case AND i Called amanda and we cried, together all.
YEAH i, Mean yen's is such a special, person AND i mean every you, know everyone who's innocent deserves to get out as soon as. Possible it's just like. THIS i, Mean i've just been on the other you, know end of those line again talking about the day that he gets out and like knowing, that LIKE i know what it feels like to like fantasize about that day and not knowing if it's going to. Happen AND i didn't
know what was gonna happen for. Him well and now and now you, know he has asked me, to you, know be his big, sister which is amazing Because i'm way younger than, him but he's so, good Like i'm gonna need you to be my big sister and help walk me through this like process of being a free. Person AND i was, like, Dude i'm, there and.
NOW i guess that it's really.
Exciting, OH i think that he may end up getting you, know pardon better get from the outside of The, yes he has so much more life that he can. Live he can fight the fight from out here now and he can do it with, help and he cannot be. Alone it's it's a big. Difference so, Yeah i'm just so excited for, him getting.
Him out of what needed to.
HAPPEN i can't remember that of my.
Friends oh, yes it's here, Alright.
Amanda where are you right? Now i'm actually standing outside of the analytics. CLUB i was about to go jog on the ellistical. One like, NOW i don't even know what to do with. Myself, Okay, well if you get any, news let me.
Know he calls, Me.
I'll, Call i'll, person.
Okay Because i'm so so happy for, him AND i just hope that he's okay right now and and that he's not alone right.
Now m.
Hm you.
Know Rachel ryan is one of the hosts Of Small, Town Big, crime a deep dive serial podcast About ensurring and The hasten, murders including an investigation into the two unknown sources OF dna at the crime. Scene you can find it wherever you get your, podcast but don't wait subscribe. Now she was just about to Interview Chip harding when the news had started trickling into us and the details were still a little. Unclear the sound was rolling on chip as he took my.
CALL i don't put my phone over.
Here thanks Using, hey jameson you, Know i'm kind of breaking right. NOW i Call. Rosenfield he hadn't heard wrote.
It that just sort of thing out you got, that, okay.
Oh we, know and being tipped by, both he turned OUT i should be.
DEPORTED i guess she's going back To, CANADA i, guess and he'll be going back To germany.
And Steve roseenveld and and didn't.
Notify we Assume yen's, KNOWS i mean because she SAID i thank you From.
YenS SO i guess he's been told kind of odd way to handle something like, This but so he's no keeping his secret right. Now, No, no it's it's the. Idea they associated press as it.
Now and it's.
Confirmed, yes, Poor oh my, god it's an incredible watch.
It i'm A i'm talking to.
You, second BECAUSE i spoke To amanda AND i was literally crying like a.
Baby, yeah where you gonna get? Me they getting ready to interview me on camera. Soon let me come up to you a little while.
You are feeling, Right.
I'm.
ASTHETIC i, mean what a great thing have.
Him he's been locked up for thirty three.
Years he's missed his, twenties his, thirties and his, forties so it's.
Time it's time to let him.
Go.
Now she's also been granted.
Parole we.
UNDERSTAND i understand she has been granted, parole and you, know as a law enforcement, ULSER i don't have any objection to that. Either if she was in fact sexually abused by her, mom you, know if that was the. CASE i think if it had gone that route back when she originally went to, trial this whole thing would have turn that differently than it.
DID i, mean this came out in sort of a.
STRAND i, mean this was reported by the media before you were.
NOTIFIED i, was.
YEAH i IMMEDIATELY i got a call from someone in the media asking my, reaction AND i didn't know to, what and he told, me AND i immediately called his primary, Attorney Stephen, rosenfield who's given probably four thousand hours on his, case and he had not. Heard so we were quite shocked that it came out through the media. First but we're not complaining because it appears he's.
Gone on home and that IS i, mean you've put years and hours how?
Long, Yeah i've probably put me one thousand hours in on. It Now i'm not looking for any. Creditor's tons of people have given the young man hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of, hours what cause they believe in.
Assistence, yeah it's an emotional.
Thing thank you so.
MUCH i am beyond happy to announce That YenS is officially out of ice custody and out of custody, period and he's finally back home in his home country Of, germany which he hasn't seen, or come to think of,
it he hasn't even seen. It tree ponder that for a second of any kind since nineteen eighty, Six and just to put some context behind, that the Fucking Berlin wall was up the last time he was, there and we were all smack dab in the middle of the threat of full scale nuclear war between The United states And. Russia but, Anyway YenS is finally able to make the most of his, life AND i know that all of us that have played roles large and small in his
newfound freedom can't wait to celebrate with. Him i'll leave you with the remainder of our original, interview and of course the closing, arguments WHICH i must say sounds a hell of a lot better coming from what we now know is a freeman's.
MOUTH i had a really really bad trial.
Lawyer who was eventually the sparred what you. Mentioned But i've also had really really fantastic losses fighting for, me including the Former Deputy Attorney, General Gale star And, marshall Also gilda and.
This was in the, movie and of Course Steve, rosensfield who has suffered with me not in so many, years And Steve.
Markett you, know.
There's you, know lawyers kept a lot of, blame but there were some really really fantastic human beings working as. Lawyers and then you know the.
Staffing i've had.
Wonderful people like you And Joan permission And Martin, seen you, know h to people who really have no important and better seems to do with their life than to worry about, me you, know stepping into my life and how it about.
Me that's been really really. Encouraging that's given me, hope and it gives me hope to try to hold on a little while longer and see whether this can be resolved in somewhat super fan BEFORE i buy a long eight you know that's that been in here FOR i can tell you exactly eleven, thousand nine hundred and forty five, days, okay eleven. Days i've been in here every two, years eight months and eleven, days and it hasn't been.
Easy but that's what guide.
Me he's wonderful people behind.
Me you do have an extraordinary, team including the leaders Of germany the past and. PRESENT i want to tell the audience there's the Movie killing For love and the book is a far far better thing By Yen starting And Bill, sizemore a far far better. Thing and then this is the part of the show that we've become known. For IT'S i think everyone's favorite part of the.
Show it's.
Mine and this is a part of the show WHERE i get to thank our. Guests in this, case of Course John, Grisham, john thanks for being. Here And Sheriff, Harding Sheriff Chip, harving Album Wall, accounting of course You yen's thanks for participating in this and sharing your thoughts and experience and educating our. AUDIENCE i want to turn it over to each of, you just for brief closing thoughts and of course we'll end with You yen, Anyway, john final thoughts.
As far As, Yeah i've said it, before these wrawful conviction stories are always compelling and tempting from my point of view to right about to tell the fantastic stories as said as they, are but to also hopefully raise.
AWARENESS i hope there's a happy. Ending we believe it's gonna be a happy ending because we're all working hard with a game plan to Get yen's out and then getting back To, germany And yenz AND i have this kind of a running gag that one day soon we're going to be drinking a beer together In munich At.
Octoberfest i'm coming, too and by the, way he gonna have the same. Deal so you, KNOW i don't want to make you not feel, special but we got the same you paying.
For, It, john we're all.
Invited we're all invited To.
Octoberfest that's, Right Sheriff harding final.
Thoughts UNTIL i got involved in this kind of, WORK i always thought that you were found guilty beyond a reasonable. Doubt but it looks like In, america once you're found, guilty to be found.
Innocent, oh.
Pardon it almost has to be your innocent beyond a shadow of a. Doubt the standard is way too. High it's shameful for me to have fifty years in the justice system and to see the. Pushback not just in this, case But i've read three or four hundred cases from prosecutors in law enforcement that don't man up and step
up and admit they make mistakes and seek the. Truth and no one has ever held accountable in the first two hundred and fifty cases That Brandon garrett, examined in many cases prosecutors with hell exculpatory.
Evidence so did law.
Enforcement and that one single case that one officer ever go to trial or spend one day in.
Jail so we can't police.
Ourselves how do we anticipate the public's going to have the confidence in us to police?
Them and, now saving the best for last yen your final.
Thoughts thank.
YOU i think it's important for your audience to realize that they're estimated one hundred. Thousand, lastly in The United, states that's a small.
City and you Know i'm far.
From the only.
One i'm, really really so grateful to the three of. You John grisham to partying And jason farm for drawing attention to my.
Case but let's not forget the other ninety nine victims of mischaracters of. Justice one of the things THAT i really would hope for is that If i'm ever, RELEASED i can maybe help draw attention to all those other people and work towards systemic changes so that things like this don't happen to other. People in YouTube it's this is you, know something to think. About there's one hundred thousand innocent people in prison in The United.
States somebody should be really stablished by.
That and heal your audience as.
Well AND i want to thank you for giving this opportunity to speak today talk About thank You.
Yans you have all my. RESPECT i look forward to working with you And i'll see you For October. Fest don't forget to give us a fantastic. Review wherever you get your, podcasts it really. Helps And i'm a proud donor to THE Nisis, project AND i really hope you'll join me in supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful. Convictions go To Innocence project dot org to learn how to donate and get. Involved i'd like to thank our production Team Connor hall And Kevin.
Wartis the music in the show is by three TIME oscar nominated Composer Jay. Ralph be sure to follow us On instagram At Wrongful conviction and On facebook At Wrongful conviction. Podcast Wrongful conviction With Jason flahm is a production Of lava For Good podcasts and association With Signal Company number one