In twenty eighteen, I had the privilege of interviewing Yusuf Salam well now doctor Yusuf Salam and doctor Salam now Sirs. I love the way that sounds on the board of the Innocents Project with me. He's a father of ten children, extraordinary and he is an accomplished and celebrated motivational speaker, an author, and a tremendous advocate for criminal justice reform.
Most dramatically, the story of Yusuf Salam and the four other wrongfully convicted boys because they were just children when they were teenagers, young teenagers when they were wrongfully convicted, then known as the Central Park Five, now known as the Exonerated Five, were featured in the hit Netflix show and the hit is not as strong enough here the smash Netflix show when they see us sixteen Emmy Award
nominations and it's become a cultural phenomenon. It also has resulted in actual consequences for the people who wrongfully prosecuted and persecuted Yusef and the other kids. Both prosecutors have faced some censure, not strong enough punishments in my view, for what they did, but it really is a full circle turnaround that couldn't possibly have been imagined back when this terrible mischaracter justice was happening. Doctor Yoseph Salam's episode
is one of my favorites. I'm excited for you to hear it.
I've never been in trouble in my life. I didn't even have a parking ticket.
You know what I mean. I was brought up like cops are the good guys.
I didn't know what was going to happen, but I do know that everything was stacked against me. Everything everything, This isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent. I know I'm innocent. I know I had nothing to do with this. How is this possible?
I grew up trusting this is I've grew up believing that every human beings should do the right thing. And that's why, even though I knee I was dealing with more rough people, I wasn't going to break anyone to get me out of prison because I wouldn't live with the fact that I break my way out of my wife's death. I'm not innocent, too proven guilty. I'm guilty until I prove my innocence. And that's absolutely what happened to me.
Our system since I've been out ten years, It's come a little ways, but it's still broken.
A totally little trust in humanity have towards happ into it.
Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm That's me And today I'm actually a little bit starstruck or awe struck because we have as our guest today Yusef Salaam, who is one of the most inspiring people I've ever had the privilege to be around. And so Yusef, welcome to the show.
Oh thank you for having me. This is definitely my pleasure.
And you know, I always say I'm happier here, but I'm sorry you're here because you never should have gone through this in the first place. But it's really it's an incredible, incredible story, both in terms of the you know, the story itself and the total breakdown of the criminal justice system that this case so perfectly highlights, but also because of what you've how you've managed to turn it into such an amazingly positive thing, and who you've become.
So we'll get into that later though, but let's go back in time, like in the movies when it gets all foggy and we go back as this because this goes back to the eighties, right, I mean, and I lived in New York. This is a New York case. It's one of the most famous cases, the Central Park geogra case, or one of the most infamous cases in the history of New York City, which is, of course the media capital of the world. And I lived in New York back then, and it was it was crazy place.
You were just a kid to get fifteen years old. Fifteen years old, unbelievable.
I was.
You know, I'm a little bit older than you, so I was in my late twenties already, but I remember it like it was yesterday. I mean, this case was blasted everywhere. This was the crime wave, right, This was a time when the only thing there was a lot of crime in New York, but the hysteria around the crime was was far exceeded the actual problem. And you know,
you were a young guy growing up. And had you prior to this horrible incident, had you had any dealings with the law, had you ever been in trouble before?
No, So I think that, you know, when I look at myself back then, being innocent, being you know, full of promise and hope and dreams and aspirations. You know, My my so to speak, interaction with police officers or authority figures was that we would see them in the neighborhoods walking around and you know, these were back when the cops actually walked the beat and knew the people's names that they you know, policed and and so I thought that police officers were very friendly, very very helpful.
And you know, you supposed that with the backdrop of today, and it's like a horror scene when you look at what happened, you know. But my my interaction was very I didn't have I didn't have any interactions. And what I knew about police officers was that they were they were your friends, and if you needed help, you could call on them to help you and they would come and they would help you because they are public servants, did the protect and serve right.
So you grew up like I did, thinking these are the these are the good guys. A lot of us when we were young boys, we all, you know, looked up to every I looked at the most people in uniform. Everyone in uniform. I always thought be one. It's a classic cliche. You grow up wanting to be a fireman or a police officer. A lot of young kids, you know,
play play act in those roles. But this crime. I want to talk about this crime because you know, interestingly, the first guest we ever had on this podcast, and now we're deep into our sixth season, right, So the first guest we ever had was Raymond Santana, who did an incredible interview. Just an amazing, amazing man he is,
and did a great job telling the story. So, you know, fans of the podcast would be familiar with the case from that, but you have your own perspective on it, you know, and there's a very and I say that for a very specific set of reasons. But going back to the case, this was a case where a woman who was a Wall Street banker, a white, twenty eight year old woman from the Upper East Side, was jogging in Central Park and she was It was dusk right
when she was attacked, and she was brutally beaten. When she was found. To give people some perspective, she seventy five percent of the blood in her body was gone. Her tempered body temperature was eighty four degrees. I mean, she was as close to dead as you can be. And she had been raped and beaten to within an inch of her life, and this triggered everyone's worst fears, right because it was, oh my god, this is a you know, you know, an innocent woman whatever, white and
there was a whole racial aspect to it. And man, when that happened, the news media went nuts and there was a lot of pressure to solve this crime. Do you want to add anything to that description?
You know it was it was definitely a witch hunts and a frenzy of a witch hunt because when you think about other people's progyptions, you know, folks look at people from so to speak, the darker ants of society as the worst of the worst. You know, I'm I'm in the motivational speaking world now, and I'm told that if you look at a person and an addressing person as they should be, you raise the level of what they could be as opposed to trying to be trying
to address them as their circumstances are. Not everybody who may be in those same circumstances may be of that particular element. And that's the thing that's unfortunate, because there was this some speak, broad stroke brush you know, accusation. Uh, these people type of rhetoric and talk, and the notion was that of course they did it because they're black and brown, and so you know when they when they when the woman was found, you know, towards the northern
northern end of Central Park. There was just this desire for one to solve this crime, and to solve this crime as quick as possible. And so I remember Mayor coach back and saying something like people wanted to know how the criminal justice system in New York City will work, and they're going to get a great opportunity as regards this case, to see how this system works. We're going to go after us with the full full arm of the law, you know, and true to farms, despite wheels
of justice, mowed us down. But in their rush to judgment, they dropped the ball in the worst way and allowed to reill criminals to continue to hurt, to maim, and ultimately murder. His lash victim, who was a young, pregnant Latina woman, he brandished his knife, came into her home. She said, hold on for one moment, and I put my days in the next room. He allowed her to
do so. She put her children in the next room, and she locked the door and then he raped her and stabbed her death, killing her and her unborn child.
And that is I'm glad you brought that up because it just it makes it make anybody sick to their stomach. And you know that that scene that you're describing is right out of a horror movie. And and it never should have happened, and it never needed to happen because in this case, and it's it's so tragically common you when you have uh, this tunnel vision and this you know, this willful framing of innocent people. And in this case it's even worse because they really knew who the guy was.
I mean, first of all, they knew for and so this woman never should have been killed. The other women that he raped in the months following the you know, your your arrest never never should have been raped. They should have gone on and had their lives not destroyed the way it were, those kids would still have a mother. This the consequences of the actions of the authorities in this case goes so far beyond having this droid young lives, five young lives, and your families and how it affected
had on your families. You know, it's amazing. I've seen the picture of your mom when you were finally exonerated, and the joy is so amazing. But but going back to this, the crazy thing is they knew from the beginning that it was a single perpetrator because this poor woman was dragged into and the ground was wet, right, and she was dragged into this area. You know, obviously
he wanted to take her to a secluded area. And for people who are not from the city, who haven't been to the city, Central Park is about three miles long and about a mile wide. It's a big place. And she was jogging up in the northern section of the park, so they knew that there was only one set of footprints in the dewey grass. They knew that there was only one There was only traces of one
person's bodily fluids. And as things progressed, even though they had you guys, and they rested you guys, and we
know they interrogated you, each of you separately. And don't want to hear about that, because Raymond's description of that is truly terrifying what he went through for you know, for hours on end, almost almost twenty four hours without in Raymond's case, I know in your case, but without food or water or a lawyer or an adult, and ultimately ultimately everyone confess except you, which is amazing too.
I mean, the fact that you, as a fifteen year old kid, under the most intense pressure that anyone could ever face, scared out of your mind, with your life at stake, still maintained your innocence is I don't even know where that kind of strength comes from. But okay, so explain the situation. So you were brought at some point, you were arrested, You were with your friends in the park. There was you know, it was a sort of chaotic night in the park. It was you know, hot night whatever.
How did this hall come down? How did you come to be arrested? How did you have in the police station? How did that after that?
So interestingly enough, if we can kind of show to speak, shift off a frame of reference to folks, to TV shows like PSI, to NCIS, forensics, you know, these types of things, what we get is an understanding that, just like you said, they had information based on their skill set as police officers and so forth. So let them know, okay, this is what happened. They could recreate the crime team based on forensics alans, Okay, this happened first, this happened next.
If we saw the blood over here and then here it is here. We were in Central Parks never denied being in Central Park, and all of the guys who became known as the Central Park Five were absolute witnesses to all of the mayhem that had gone on in the park. With the exception of the rape of the Jagga. No one had no idea a woman was raped, didn't know anything about it. And so here I am. At the time, I was about six foot two inch two inches, very slim, had an outfit on that was a Skybrew
jacket with skyblw matching pants. My sky blue pants had artwork on it. I'm actually a person who was going to LaGuardia Music and Art for Arts, so I'm a great graphic designer and I drew some stuff from my pants that was just you know, how how people did back then. But if we can think about these TV shows, what we know is that when they start going into the community to try to recreate what happened and to ask people what happened, what they do is they say, okay,
well who who's there? And folks in there, in there thinking, okay, damn what it was a guy that was a tall guy. I remember there was a tall guy in the park with a flat top. I was probably maybe the most stand out ish looking for fellows because not only was I tall and lanky, but what I had on almost looked like I was wearing white in the life of Central Park. And so, of course no one knew my name. None of us knew each other. I actually met Raymond
Santana and the other guys in prison. I only knew Corey. Why But as things go further, as you can imagine, they go to the surrounding communities and start interrogating everyone. One thing leads to another, and my name is mentioned, and I'm finding out that the police officers are looking for me. And I say, well, you know what, Hey, I knew I didn't do anything wrong. I'm with Corey. Corey said, hey, I left the park almost right after
we went in. Well, let's sort of the cops and to tell them what we saw and we'll be home before our mom get that.
So when did you get picked up? Like the crime happened at night right and the publicity happened immediately after the crime, when did you become aware that the cops were looking for you.
I became aware of it. I went to school the next day. I was actually one of the only children that had school the next day. I went to school. The next day, came home from school and the blocks was completely empty. It was the weirdest thing that you can imagine if children didn't have school. Everybody be outside riding skateboards, bikes, having fun, just hanging out. And I'm
looking around, I'm like, where's everybody at? And not only that, I see a whole bunch of unmarked police cars, and so I'm like, man, that's just crazy stairs not thinking anything up it, changed my clothes and come back downstairs with my playoutfit con you know. And Corey's girlfriend at the time comes up to me and says, hey, when you see Corey, bring him to my house. I need to show you all something. I said, sure, no problem,
show Corey. A little while later, we go up to his house, to his girlfriend's house, and she shows us the news. She turns the news on him. At this point. It's maybe around for a stock or something like that, and of course they do the things breaking and it was a sul shape. Women found it as part uh, so far and so on. I'm not understanding why she's showing this to us. And then she looked at us and says, hey, do you have anything to tell me? And then looking at her like what's up, what's up?
What's going on? And she said, they're saying that this was you guys, that you're all in the park last night, and this is what you all did. And I said, right, no, no, no, no, no no. And then she said, and they're looking for you, and so I said, well, I'm going to go to them and tell them what I saw. I know I didn't do anything wrong. Corey said he didn't do anything wrong. He didn't hurt nobody or do anything bad. He left
the park after entering, and we get picked up. As a matter of fact, when we finally got a hold of the offices that it's kind of strange and ironic that I'm saying it that way, but I was looking for them. When the officers finally came in contact with us, they were in front of my door trying to convince my thirteen year old brother to put his clothes on
and come down to the prison with them. He had had not been in the park he didn't know what was going on, and they were trying to convince him to put his clothes on to come down to the precinct to be questioned and interrogated. That would have ended disastrously. As you came back, I turned the corner to approach my door and they're in front of my door talking
to my brother and they asked me who am? I askaid you, soud Salami look at this document that they had in their hands and said, this is one of the guys you were looking for. They asked Corey who was he? And he said, I'm Corey Wise. And they looked at the paper and said, you're not on this paper, But do you want to come downtown with your buddy. You'll be right back, and you know, you know how that story ends. Of course, Cory is sixteen years old
at the time. He ends up getting railroaded and convicted and spending almost thirteen to fourteen years of the next part of his life in prison or crime that we all hannot committed.
Wow, So he was actually the most random of them all. He just went down because he was trying to be a boody d you basically right, And that was the one that was the most worst decision he ever made. He made it for the right reason. So the process that happened in the precincts, it was the Central Park precinct that you were brought to, right.
That was the initial precinct. And then they then they you know, because Manhattan, Manhattan nor hoomicide squad steps and they start they are the now then they are now the officers that are interrogating. They're the ones that are saying, Okay, this is looking like it's going to be a homicide. We need to figure this out and and solve this crime and top quickly and appease the fears of the public and let them know that we have the city
under control. We are in control, and we caught so called perpetrators.
Yeah, so how did the interrogations go, Like what you were brought in? What was the whole process? You're brought to the precinct, you were with Corey.
I was with Corey, and they immediately separated us, you know, and they started interrogating. And while they were asking me the questions I had, I was very very forthcoming. I said, yeah, this is what happened first, is what happened next? I'm like you know, thinking, hey, I'm just going to go in there and tell them what I saw, and like I said, I'll be back home before my mom gets back. And when I when I wrapped up the first time, the guy said, okay, well what about the jagga? And
I'm like, what jogga? What are you talking about? And he says, okay, well, let's start. Tell me what happened again from the top I saw from the top of them, and things began to intensify. And it began to intensify in such a way that I started feeling afraid. And then they you know, at some point they would leave the room and come back in, and I never seen at one point they left the room for a very
very long time. And at this point, hours were going by, and I'm feeling tired and I'm starting to doze off, and I am immediately Joe toed for wait because I hear Cory Wise yelling in the next room. Now, Cory VI is just to give you a little his background of Corey. Corey Wise was the U was, probably was and still is the guy who you wanted to have as a friend because you knew that he would have your back. He wasn't gonna let nothing bad happen to you.
He was gonna make sure that you know you were okay. And so to hear Corey, this person who had such a big heart or fearful person, yelling and screaming okay, I'll tell you, I'm I'm like, oh my goodness. They're beating him up. I hear them smacking him around. I hear them. I hate he's under this. He is in a position that I have never heard him in before. And that immediately joke to me. A word sent chills down my spine, and I'm like, oh my god, that's
they're gonna kill us. And at this point, I'm scared. At this point, I'm still trying to maintain my innocence. I'm still trying to let them know what happened. And now it's like a boxing match.
Did at any point did you have a lawyer or a guardian or a parent or anybody else in there with you?
No. And this is one of the most interesting things. I didn't know my mother had came to the priest and I didn't know she was there. It wasn't until after a few more hours passed that one of the I think it might have been either Fairstein or Elizabeth Letter or came into the room. I mean they shouldn't come to a knocked on the door and summoned the officer out of the room. And when they summoned the officer out of the room, they the officer came back in and said to be how old are you? Now?
Mind you? They they they first when they took me into custody at my apartment building, they took my ID, which had my ID from Mount Signai Hospital, which had my birth date on it. Inside my wallet had my Mount sign I I d I'm ID, but you know, like the hospital, your hospital card. I had that. I had the bus pad and I had a pocket knife, so they knew how old I was. So the guy comes in and says how old are you? How how
old are you again? And I said I'm fifteen, and he curses and throws his pad across the room and says, why the didn't you tell me that? And I'm not even knowing why that's even relevant. I don't even understand what's going on. Then they bring me down to my mom and she's telling me, hey, do not talk to these people. I did not give them permission to talk to you. You're a minor. They need my permission. I am not giving them permission. Don't talk to them. That was how it went.
But then then what happened, Because now you've spoken to your mom. That must have been a very emotional situation. And now you've just heard Corey getting eating up. You know that you're in real trouble. Your mom is there like like a lifeboat, right, like a life uh you know, uh, life saver. But but you're but but you're still in the custody of the cops. And then so did they then pull you away from her and put your back in the room.
And they did, And that's the part, that's the craziest part. They don't have my they don't have her permission, they don't have her consent to talk to me. That meeting was so short. I don't know how long it lasted, but it felt like minutes. It felt like minutes. It felt like it was less than five minutes. And then they brought they almost ripped me out of her arms again and brought me back to the back and they continued to interrogate, and I remember one of the officers,
the main officers interrogating. He says, uh, you know, you don't have to tell us anything. That's fine. You know, we have we have your we pulled your fingerprints off of her off for short, Like how the heck did they prove my fingers off for short? Like I didn't, I wasn't there.
Yeah, and that's something he said that that you know, I don't understand either. I mean, the fact that they're allowed to lie in the interrogation process is so uh, it's just I don't know, it doesn't make sense to me, but go ahead.
Yeah, And I mean at this point, I'm like, oh man, I'm I'm I'm doing I'm done for. But they took my threats and put it on her.
But they didn't the fact that your prints weren't on it. They just they just lied, I mean because they're trying to pressure fantastic.
So ye again I'm being trained and I'm like, oh uh, but yeah, they lied?
And did they did they actually beat you up like did the other guys?
No, No, they didn't. They the threat was very real, the threat was extremely real, but they didn't. They didn't touch me.
And ultimately, you were there for do you even know how many hours you were in there.
For no I don't I know. I was brought in that evening and I remember we didn't have an eating to eat, a drink, and you know, being worn down from that, you know, you think about I have I have ten children. So it's an interesting dynamic when you think about, you know, how much a child could eat. And so my my fifteen year old consumed everything in
the house. You know, you got to basically go to Costcos just for that one child alone and buy in bulk, because you know that they're going to eat everything, you know. But we didn't get anything to eat, We didn't get anything to drink. I remember the next morning we were we were at another precrint and they bought McDonald's, you know, and I remember eating McDonald's was the first time.
I had eat and so and you said, I mean, there's a very powerful video that I saw you do that people can watch that you did in conjunction with the New Yorker magazine and the Marshall Project, in which you talk about the fact that you thought you were going to go and as you just said you'd be home before your mom got back, and in fact he
didn't get home. From seven years so from this point, you never did confess, right, the other guys were, and which is interesting too because of the fact and kind of amazing because of the fact that we know that false confessions are very common. The general public doesn't understand. Jurors don't understand why anyone would confess to a crime they didn't commit. But when they're under that type of pressure and their adolescence and their brain hasn't even fully formed,
like yours, Adam, what were you in ninth grade? It's ridiculous.
And so the pressure gets to people and they also think like it must have occurred to you at some point, because you come into that room thinking, well, these are the good guys, and there's going to be even if these guys that are in front of me aren't good guys, there's going to be some other good guys that are going to understand that are going to save me, because I got to get out of this room, like I got to get away from these people who are tormenting me,
who are threatening me, who may kill me. And that's what the whole you know, interrogation techniques called the red technique is designed to do. It's designed to basically make your mind collapse in on itself so that you see no other option other than to confess. So that's why
false confessions are extremely common in juvenile and adolescents. And that's important for people who are listening, who are someday going to serve on a jury to know if you're seeing, especially a case where there's no other evidence other than a false confession, other than a confession, you really have to dive into that, and you have to be aware that that confession very well may be a false confession and you may be dealing with it and its in person.
So then it comes to the trial, and you know, you've got this sensational trial so much media. You guys were you know, I mean even I was buying into it back then. I'm ashamed to admit it. But there was only one narrative. There wasn't like somebody else going, well, wait a minute, may be blah blah blah. Because they were withholding all the evidence that they had, right they
knew that, I mean, weeks into your case. They knew that it was impossible that you or any of the four guys could have done this, but they didn't care.
And that's the thing that you know, But when I when I when I look at a lot of these cases and I understand the law a lot more, I realized that it's not really about the facts, it's about who can tell the best stories. And in many ways, we had an effective counsel. We had, you know, we were facing a situation where even the evidence that you see, you know, you would think that it's a gag rate, that there's definitely going to be some femen, some type
of something. Nobody had blood on them, nobody had anything on them that even indicated that they were at this place, you know. But yet they still went and stepped over the bounds of the law, manufactured evidence, like you said, and went full stream ahead because not only not only did they do this in the worst way, but I've always said that it was more attractive, it was more sexy,
if you will. For there to be five people brutally assaulting one woman who was white, five five people of color brutally assaulting a white woman, then there it have been. With the evidence shows from the clim scene there's one person dragging one person into the woods and trying to murder them after they raped them.
Right, it's a wolf pack situation. It's it's preying on everybody's primal fears. It's playing on the on the race card, everything else, and you know, and it's so it's so tragic because they knew that this Matthias race guy, they were already watching him. They knew that he was a suspect and a prior rape that had many of the
similar characteristics. I mean, there was this case really came with instructions and as this evidence started coming in and they they became aware in a very short time after you guys were arrested, and some of the evidence probably was even in before you arrested, that it was a single perpetrator, be that it wasn't any of you guys.
See that they could have so easily gone and picked up Matthias, and they would have, they would have had the guy, and we keep coming back to that, and none of these other people would have suffered the way they didn't. Neither would you. But that's not what happened because these people were they were overtaken by ambition and publicity and accolades that they wanted to get, and they were perfectly happy to convict inns and people. It was
almost like not even inconvenient for them. It was just like, let's just get it done and take the bows and do their whole thing along with their lives. And they have gone on with their lives. I don't know how. I don't know how they sleep at night, but they do.
You know. Jason's interesting as you talk about that, because that's one of the things that I give people try to get people to understand as well. This is not a situation where oh my goodness, we dropped the ball, my dad, Oh my gosh, we've never done this before. This is this is a situation where it's the convincibility
of our guilt, which was we weren't guilty. But if they were able to convince the public of this lie and do it so well, I've always said, well, how many other cases after I'll never forget When the Central prop five film came out that King Burns did, which was an amazing film. I never forget. When it was released, people from Columbia Law was watching it, and Elizabeth Letter
is an adjunct professor at Columbia Law. I don't know if she's still there, but she was there then, and the students started an online petition to get her fired. They did not want her to teach them, because in their minds they were looking at this case and saying, what kind of law is she going to teach? If she did this to the central PLoP five, what is she training us to do? And they did not want her to teach them, and instead of Columbia Law firing her,
they protected her. But the document's painted pictures that this wasn't just about we're going to prosecute this case. We're just going to do our jobs and you know, make sure that justice is served. They hated us. They hated us with every fiber of their bodies and wanted us to be guilty. And in that they did anything and everything, by hook or by crook to make sure that they
can get a conviction. I never forget why. When they leaked out something about the DNA, they said that DNA evidence and then they tested us and no match came back. And once did they do, they had to come out and say that no, there's no match. But they quickly swept that under the rug. Because that's tsunami of media reports that were present within the first few weeks of this trial, or not even the trial, but the case
being broadcast. That sunami of media reports dwarfs, any of these small little things that came out because it mudded the waters and caused people to just say to themselves, there was something about DNA in this case. They don't remember that there was no DNA match. They just remembered there was something about DNA, and then when it came out in the trial and said this will say, will be no DNA evidence in the stakes. What we will rely on on their confessions.
Stay tuned, We'll be right back. Let's move to the trial itself. How long did the trial last?
Wow? Man, So I want to say that the trial lasted for maybe just under a year. I don't know specific time frames, but I do know that I was out on bail. I was only in lock up initially for a little while that I got out on bail, and that was nineteen eighty nine. And how of nineteen nine years when they convicted us.
But okay, so that's weird too, because you're out on bail. I mean, you couldn't go to school. You must have had to stay inside the house. You're one of the most notorious criminals in New York state history at that time. It was.
It was one of the worst and scariest times ever because, as you can imagine, also Donald Trump, early on, we hadn't even been gone, we haven't even gone to trial yet. Donald Trump takes out a full page ad two weeks after we were accused, and it runs in the New News, the Daily, the New York Times, Daily News, the Post, all of the major newspapers. It run and it's it's
an outcry. It's an outcry from someone from the darker enclaves of society to come into our home, to drag us from our bay, and to hang us from trees in Central Park, to do to us what they had done to ever till. And I say that because what happened as a result of that article being that ad being grand in place, people began to write us hateful mail.
People began to write us threatening letters. They began to say that they were going to that we that they hoped that we would be fried in oil, that we would be raped, that we'll be castrated. That twenty to thirty years from now, next year is the thirtieth anniversary of the Central Park jogger case. Twenty to thirty years from now, some people will never forget. And one letter specifically says that maybe the one time that you don't check your back is the one time that someone want
just be there to say hello. And so if you can imagine the language and all of the stuff that was going on back then, like they wanted to murder us. They wanted to do to us what they had done to m Mitil. We became the modern day scotspital boys, definitely, but they wanted to do to us what they had done to Emmettil.
Yeah, the m Motel case haunts me all. It's just really one of the most just really one of the darkest episodes in American history. That that poor kid with that little baby face that he had. But you were almost the same age as he was at the time, Right, he was fourteen, you were fifteen. And here you are now you're a president in your own home. You have this guy who we know as a racist taking out these ads advocating a lynch mob. The fact that the
papers would even run these paper ads is insane. And and then then the trial comes. So how did the trial itself? And you know, obviously you were not avaquately represented. I don't know if a good lawyer could have gotten you out with all the hysteria at that time because you'd been trialed, you had already been tried in the media. But the fact is, you know, there's that saying that in America you're better off being guilty and rich than innocent and poor. So the the fact is, so you
go to the trial. The trial itself lasted how many days?
Oh man? So the trial, that's That's another thing that's very foggy on me. But I know that as the trial went in, it was like, okay, as it was drawing on and drawing on, and forget the very at the very end. What I remember most is I was on the phone with a friend and I never forget it was the day was the day was ending, and I'm on the phone and say, hey, this is what's going on. You know, Okay, it looks like we'll we'll you know, they're not going to have a verdict and
I'll be able to see you all shortly. And then somebody came running down the hallway and said, the verdict is in. The verdict is in. I said, man, vertic is in. Okay, great, I'll see you soon. And I just don't know. We were all found guilty.
You were were you tried together.
Well, they split the trial, and they split the case in half. And so the first of us, myself, Remiston, Tanna, and Anton mccuariar went and then the next three that was there because it was initially called the Center Park seven and Michael Briscoe was able to get out of the case and get freed, and then it became the Center Park six. And when that first file happened to myself, Remiston's moon, yeah, myself, Ramison Tanna, and Antony McCrae, we
got convicted. We lost, and the next trial jearing up Corey Wise, Kevin Richardson and Steven Lopez, Stephen Lopez, if Cole Fee. All kinds of rumors were out there about how much time we were facing. They wanted to try us as adults and convict us as adults, and they tried us as adults, and then when the convictions came down a few months later, for a little while later
they gave us juvenile times. But each of these charges they were saying could have given us three and a half three was three three and a third to ten years. And so for the major charges, I think it was two of them we could have been facing dition two thirds to twenty years if they wanted to give us that kind of time. And like I said, Stephen Lopez got cold feet. He heard about this, these rumors. Oh my goodness, they got convicted. I can't do that much time.
Let me just cop out to something that I didn't do so I can get out of this thing. And of course we know that he copped out to robbery or something like that and got a year. He did one year and came home. I think it was one year. Unfortunate too, because it shows what you said, if you're poor in your innocence, you're not going to get a fair chance. You're not going to be afforded the same opportunities of the under the law as a person who.
Maybe more and so so that you actually believed, up until the moment that the diverted came in that you were going to be exonerated. It's amazing after everything you've been through that you still had that type of and well, and now that I know you as I do, the fact that you're the optimistic attitude is I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but after everything you had been through at that time, it's amazing that you still maintained hope.
But in fact the worst possible outcome came to be, which is that you were found guilty and then you were taking to prison. Now you're sixteen years old, right and you're going to some of the worst prisons in America arguably the world.
This is this is the worst of nightmare times twenty And that was in the juvenile facility as well. I know that Corey Wison in regards Island, in Reconds Island is incomparable to Sponsored or any of the other juvenile facilities.
You know.
The worst thing that can happen to you and Jubie is that you might get sliced or you know, beat up or something like that. But in Reconsiland, God, you could lose your life. For us that went to the juvenile facility, it was hell. And then when we got convicted, they sent us to one of the three maximum as
treat facilities at the time that was there. They sent me to Harlem Valley, they sent Raymonds and Canada Ghoshen, and they sent Antema Creates a book work, you know, and it was the worst, worst kind of situations that we had to grow up very bad figure out how we were going to survive when just yesterday we were riding skateboards and you know, being food groups or something like that.
I'm doing graphic design and looking forward to your.
Life, just just just being a normal, innocent child. And now yet that whole reality is gone, and it's hard to it's hard to fully describe everything that went on because my story is a little bit different, because I started to really try to get some type of understanding about this. I wanted to figure out why why, Like I knew that I was innotant, I knew that we hadn't done it, but here we were, we were in prison, and I was trying to figure out why were we convicted?
How did this happen? And nece again. A guy comes up to me in prison, one of the officers, and he's been watching me for the few months that I had been there at this time, and he asks me this one question, This one question changed my life. He said,
who are you? And I, in my ignorance and confusion, my answer was probably the same as anyone else, without understanding the philosophical realm of where he was going, I said, I'm used of Salon, one of the guys they accused of raping the essential park Joenre But I didn't do it, and he said, no, no, no, no, I know that, he said, but I've been watching you. You're not supposed to be here, You're not a criminal. Why are you here?
Who are you? And it caused me to really evaluate my life and my circumstances, short as it may be, at a particular point in time, to understand things in a greater, so to speak, way, to understand that we all are here on purpose. There's things that we have to do, and we are the ones that are chosen to do that. And if we don't do it, it won't be done. If we don't bless the world with
our book, that book will never be written. They say the graveyard is the wealthiest place in the world because it's filled with the ideas and the dreams and the hopes of people that just did not get over the hump of doing those ideas and dreams and hopes, you know. And so here I was, in this place that I was supposed to be. Damned, I'm getting a sense of purpose that I would have never really really understood had not gone through this.
Did you did you maintain a relationship with that officer going forward, because that's deep I mean, the first person that said that those same words to me was Deepak Chopra. I'm not comparing this guy to Deepac Choprah, but but yeah, I mean what happened with I mean, did you did you continue to have dialogue with him?
I did. As a matter of fact, this this guy uh befriended me. It was one of it was one of the mini officers that befriended me, you know. And it was weird because at the same time there was there were little things that were going on, and one time I would come back to my cell and I would see chopicicana orange juice and Intimates cookies and it would happen often enough that it's kind of like, oh wow, this is this is kind of strange. And it happened
to like choplic kind of orange and into cookies. But in the back of my mind, I had this voice playing in my head that they were trying to kill me with the food and so I wouldn't never eat it. Then one David Lady comes up to be another officer and she says, hey, have you been getting the goodies I've been leaving to you? And I said, oh wow, I didn't know you were leaving. I didn't know it
was you. I said, why did you do that? And she said, I know you're innocent, I know you're not supposed to be here, but I can't take this key and let you go for you. So every time I come in here and you here, I want to make your time as easy and as comfortable as possible. And this was her way of doing that.
You found this incredible purpose in this darkest place that you could possibly be in, and it has obviously carried you through. You ended up serving on a five to ten years sentence six years and eight months. Let's talk about the fact that Matthias Reyis actually confessed all these years later when he met one of the central part He met Corey in prison and then suddenly his conscience
got to him. Imagine that he actually met a guy who was serving time for the crime that he committed, and then all of a sudden he got this attack of conscience. I think he may have found religion by then or I don't know what, but anyway, it doesn't matter. He confessed, how did you find out that you now had this ray of light and that you you know, that you were now going to be actually had a real chance of becoming being exonerated.
So you know, when we heard the news just like everyone else, and our attorneys were telling us about how you know what happened. And you know, one of the worst things that, of course happens in the case like that, is if you've been ran all about the five wills of justice once, you absolutely do not trust that they are going to do the right thing this time. And so felt like, okay, you know this this the world
workers came out, he confessed to the crime. He confessed in a compelling way that let him know that he alone did this. They did his DNA and lo and behold his DNA matches, and like I said, then when they tested his DNA and as DNA matched, they knew beyond a shadow of a doubt, Oh my goodness, we did the wrong thing and convicted the wrong guys. And we have to fix this, and so to judge vacate
our convictions. As a matter of fact, as we as we go forward, we see that Robert Morgan's office as man, had we known then what we know now, we would have never convicted them. And I'm appreciative and happy that he said that. But what we all submit is that they did know back then what they knew now. They did know Robert Morgansawt had people working for him and under him that should have ever went after us. And it cost the city millions of dollars. It costs a million.
Well, it costs so much more than just the millions of dollars they had to pay out, because it also costs, as we said, the lives of these other innocent people. It costs your lives, It costs your family untold heartache and paying. It costs tax money that we we had to pay to keep you guys incarcerated. Right, that's that runs into the millions of dollars when you're talking about
forty years of prison time collectively or more. When and then we talk about the lost the lost taxes that you could have been outside paying, Right, if you guys were if you guys had gone through your normal schooling and come out and then become gotten your jobs, whatever you're going to be doing, we've been paying taxes you had been contributing to society. So it's a it's a loss for society in every conceivable way. And it was
preventable and it's despicable what happened. And I think everybody owes you a tremendous apology, and so I'm going to apologize to you on behalf of New York City and America and the human race because none of this, none of us, should have ever gone down the way it did. And and let me I want to get to the to what you're doing now, but and and talk about your public speaking and other advocacy work that you're doing.
But before we get to that, so, so you had this euphoria, it still took all this time to put your life back together, but you've done it. And to see you now, no one would ever know that you had been through this stuff. I mean today, are you bitter?
You know I'm not bitter. I think that what it is is that we've been able to take our circumstance. And when I think we, I know that myself and Raymondsontanna, we've gone out and we've spoken a lot more than the other folks of a gentleman in the Centrafak geography case. But what the idea is that be able to take this this this uh shad part, this really horrific part
of life and turn it into something beautiful. And so I'm reminded of what Nelson Mandela said when he was talking about how he had to be in the world and what he had to leave behind in the prison, and he said he had to lead anger and resentment and bitterness in the prison because and we all hear him say, it's like, it's like drinking poisons and expecting your enemy to die. To use that anger, you write it, you paint it, you dance it, you march it, you voted,
you do everything about it. You talk it, never stop talking. And so I say that because I've been trying to utilize my energy and my platform to articulate what happened to us in a way that makes sense, so that other folks can understand how important their role is and how important they need to be as regards to what
happens in the criminal justice system, you know. And so I've taken that anger and I redirected it, I transformed it, and I made it into something that is more beautiful and more powerful.
And and and this is where I stand now, And let me ask you this. So if people want to, I know you're doing a lot of public speaking.
You have a book.
But if people want to have you come and speak, how did they reach out to you? How do they contact you? What's the name of the book. Let's give a nice plug for any of your social media or anything else that you want to talk about.
Yeah. Absolutely, I used my real name on social media so folks can connect with me Useef Salam y U S E F S A L A A M on all social media platforms. My photo was this so that you'll know it's me. The name of the book is Words of a Man. It's on my website. My website is use speaks dot com. That's why U S E F S P E A K S dot com. And
you know, folks can book me by emailing me. Why U S G S at you speaks dot com used to speaks dot com and I worked for myself, so I'm you know, people can book me, people can bring me, and so I can travel. And this is where it's at, being able to bring these real life stories into spaces that can really effectuate change, whether at be universities, whether that be forums wide and broad.
So the last thing I would like to do is is usually the last thing we do here on the show, and It's actually my favorite part of the show, and I think probably a lot of people people's favorite part of the show. This is the part of the show where I get quiet and I like to just turn the microphone over to you for last words. Anything that's on your mind, anything that you can share that will give people some new perspective in your own words, yousef.
So what I want to do in this moment is take people back in time. And I love to do this because it's something that I do on the road of my teaking engagement. So take them back into the courthouse. I take them back to the day right after I got convicted, and here we were standing in front of the judge and we were about to be sent in, and they axed us, do you have anything to say
before we sent inte? And rather than throwing myself on the mercy of the court like everyone has been telling me, I had been reading Malcolm Max, I had been reading about Marcus Garvey. I had been reading about countless individuals who are freedom fighters trying to fight for justice. And what I stood up and said to the judge was says I said, I'm not going to sit here at your table and watch you eat and call myself dinner.
Sitting here at your table doesn't make me dinner, just like being here in America doesn't make me an American. Let us begin stresses the anger that is built up inside. Rage is the anger that is no longer built kicking on the sucker that soon you have killed American. Free will doesn't mean you can kill and take another person's life. You live your life, Trice. I'm a skill builder, So on skills I do builds. We ain't to given knowledge to this black man soon to enhance my words across
the land. I'm a smooth type of fellow, cool, common mellow. I'm kind of laid back. But now I'm speaking so that you know I got used and abused and even was put on the news without CRUs. Some gay cus selling out like fools and I'll check this who did what and who did who?
End?
But in situation that you don't know what to do and some brothers go wild and we're not down with them. Who would have thought I'd have to lock in? I said it, choose checking the scene from how the situation was instead of getting facts. The media made you blur. Now the people don't know all they see is the media. They never hear the blame because they're constantly deceiving us. The DA is dead wrong. This is a master plan. This case is not a case. It's just the craft
as sham Joe. Instead of trying to get your name made, it's reconstructing the crime that really paid me. It's lam e law being supreme over Satan, but no man as a law. If summer science dropper on the righteous path, So how the hell could I take a rapist path? Think about that and then think about this. All my friends it was me, they dished, said, dismissed, because I don't really need any friends like that, like when I
really needed you. Where we're at, I'm not distant involved, but the ones that I called, they went and just me like I was an inch, small, like a rat, a mouse, not even the man wrongly accused, like the knife in my hands. How does it look me? Clock now? I'm surek, But like Matt Locke, soon the accused, it took the hook. It's real when she remembers and says, damn the cops that you win. I stand the cues.
Few people stop this. Rachel dispersed and yo, you've seen that kid Vincent, he's in the Hurst and so we take it just Vic and Hurst Fields, white type bullet proof. Bet we had no kind of shield. How does it look they killed a black man being black. It's time we take a stand in our situation. You saw our faces clear, but not mine. Not because of fear. It's because the black race was disgrace and for the Muslim they must have felt shame. But I'm not to blame.
With the words you fought. The media took our words, the paper, the ones the cops distorted. I told the cops truth like this, and then boom, they were smacking my man. Koby Wine's in the next room. Now, why no minds that Roses can't stand the Bobby lawn. They never helped. They just babblan. I used to think the people and cops were cooled, but who protects us from you?
I stand the que and as I wrapped it up, the judge's face was getting angrier and angrier, and I could tell they were about to throw the book it and then I took my seat and it gave me. The maximum amount of time that they could give me was just five to tent And they hoped that they could have given me more. I'm sure that's what I said. That actually is one of the poems that's in my book Words of a Man that's on my website. I also when I come around and seek, I usually have
some with me as well. That's good.
Well, all I can say is, you know, I wish you all the best, all the blessings of life. I'm so happy to see you thriving, building your family, building your career, and spreading the word alongside so many of us in the movement. And I look forward to working with you and spending time with you in the future. And I just want to thank you again for taking your time to be on the show, and I want to thank the audience also for listening. This has been
a very special and moving episode of Wrongful Conviction. So yusef, thank you again, my pleasure, Thank you for having them. Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you get your podcasts.
It really helps.
And I'm a proud donor to the Enesis Project, and I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very important cause and helping to event future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocentsproject dot org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on
Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one