#100 Jason Flom with Dr. Yusef Salaam

advocate for criminal justice reform. Most dramatically, the story of use of Salam and the four other wrongfully convicted boys because they were just children when they were teenagers young teenagers, and they were wrongly convicted, then known as the Central Park Five, now known as the Exonerated Five, were featured in the hit Netflix show and the hit it Hit is not a strong enough for the smash Netflix show when they see us sixteen Emmy Award nominations and it's

become a cultural phenomenon. It also has resulted in actual consequences for the people who wrongfully prosecuted and persecuted Yusef and the other kids. Both prosecutors have faced some censure. I'm not strong enough punishments in my view for what they did, but it really is a full circle turnaround that couldn't possibly have been imagined back when this terrible miscaracter justice was happening. Dr Yusef Salon's episode is one of my favorites. I'm excited for you to hear it.

I've never been a trouble with my life. I didn't even have a parking ticket. I didn't, you know what I mean. I was brought up like cops are the good guys. I didn't know what was going to happen, but I do know that everything was stacked against me. Everything like everything, this isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent. I know I'm innocent. I know I had nothing to do with this. How is this possible? I grew up trusting this is tims. I grew up believing

that every human being should boot the right thing. And that's why, even though he Neil is dealing with cor rough people, I wasn't going to brave anyone to get me out of prison because I wouldn't live with the funk that I braved my way out of my waystead I'm not innocent, too proven guilty. I'm guilty until I proved my innocence, and that's absolutely what happened to me her system. Since I've been out ten years, it's come a little ways, but it's still broke in a totally

little trust in humanity after what's happened to it. Welcome back the Wrong for Conviction with Jason Flam That's me. And today I'm actually a little bit um star struck or awe struck because, um, we have as our guest today Yusef Salam, who is one of the most inspiring people I've ever had the privilege to be around. And so Yusef, welcome to the show. Oh thank you for

having me. It is definitely my pleasure. And um, you know, I always say I'm happy you're here, but I'm sorry you're here because you never should have gone through this

in the first place. But it's really it's an incredible, incredible story, both in terms of the you know, the story itself and and the the total breakdown of the criminal justice system uh that this case so perfectly um um highlights, but also because of what you've how you've managed to turn it into such an amazingly positive thing and who you've become. So we'll get into that later though,

but let's go back in time. Like in the movies when it gets all foggy and we go back as this, because this goes back to the eighties, right, I mean, Um, and I lived in New York. This is a New York case. Is one of the most famous cases, the Central Park Jogre case, or one of the most infamous cases in the history of New York City. Um, which is of course the media capital of the world. And I lived in New York back then, and it was it was crazy place. You were just a kid, um

years old, fifteen years old, unbelievable. I was. You know, I'm a little bit older than you, so I was in my late twenties already. But I remember like it was yesterday. I mean, this case was blasted everywhere. This was the crime wave, right, This was a time when the only thing there was a lot of crime in New York. But the hysteria around the crime was was far exceeded the actual problem. Um. And you know you

were a young guy growing up. Um. And had you prior to this horrible incident, had you had any dealings with the law, had you ever been in trouble before? So I think that, you know, when I look at myself back then, being innocent, being you know, full of promise and hope and and dreams and aspirations. You know. My my so to speak, interaction with police officers or authority figures was that we would see them in the

neighborhoods walking around. And you know, these were back when the cops actually walked the beat and knew the people's names that they you know, police and and so I thought that police officers were very friendly, very very um helpful. And you know, you you juxtaposed that with the backdrop of today, and it's like a horror scene when you look at what happened, you know. But my my interaction was very I didn't have I didn't have any interactions.

And what I knew about police officers was that they were they were your friends, and if you needed help, you could call on them to help you, um and they would come and they would help you because they all public servants there to protect and serve. Right. So you grew up like I did, thinking these are the these are the good guys. A lot of us when we were young boys, uh, we all you know, looked up to every I looked at the most people in uniform,

everyone in uniform. I always thought that's a class of cliche. You grow up wanting to be a fireman or a police officer. A lot of young kids, you know, play

play act in those those roles. But this crime. I want to talk about this crime because you know, interestingly, the first guest we ever had on this podcast, and now we're deep into our sixth season, right, so, um, the first cast we ever had was Raymond Sntana, who didn't an incredible interview, just an amazing, amazing man he is, and uh did a great job um telling the story.

So you know, fans of the podcast would be familiar with the case from that, but you have your own perspective on it, and you know, and and there's a very and I say that for a very specific set of reasons. But going back to the case, this was a case where a woman who was a Wall Street banker, a white twenty eight year old woman from the Upper East Side, was jockey in Central Park and she was that it was dusk right um when she was attacked

and she was brutally beaten. When she was found. To give people some perspective, she sev of the blood and her body was gone, her temperate body temperatures eighty four degrees. I mean, she was as close to dead as you can be, and she had been raped and beaten to within an inch of her life. And this triggered everyone's worst fears, right because it was, oh my god, this is the you know, uh, you know, an innocent woman whatever, white and there was a whole racial aspect to it.

And man, when that happened, the news media went nuts and there was a lot of pressure to solve this crime. Um, do you want to add anything to to that description? You know it was it was definitely a witch hunt, sent a frenzy of a witch hunt, because when you think about other people's projections, you know, folks look at people from so to speak, the darker honies of society

as the worst of the worst. Um. You know, I'm I'm I'm in the motivational speaking world now, and I'm told that if you look at a person and address a person as they should be, you raised the level of what they could be, as opposed to trying to be trying to address them as their circumstances are. Not everybody who may be in those same circumstances maybe of that particular elements and that's the thing that's unfortant, because there was this some speak broad stroke rush, you know,

accusation uh these people type of rhetoric and talk. And the notion was that of course they did it because they're black and brown, and so you know when they when they when the woman was found, you know, towards the northern northern end of Central Park. There was this just a desire for one to solve this crime, and

to solve this crime as quick as possible. And so I remember me a cosh BacT and saying something like people wanted to know how the how the criminal justice systems in New York City will work, and they're going to get a great opportunity as regards this case to see how this system works. We're gonna go after us with the full full arm of the law, you know, and true to form despike wheels of justice mold us down.

But in in in their rush to judgment, they dropped the ball in the worst way and allowed the will criminals to continue to hurt name and ultimately murder. His last at them, who was a young pregnant Latina woman. He brandished his knife, came into her home. She said, hold on for one moment and I thought, my da is in the next room. He allowed her to do so she put her children in the next moment, she locked the door, and then he raped her and stabbed

for the death, killing her and her unborn child. And that is I'm glad you brought that up, because it's just it makes it makes anybody sick to their stomach. And you know that that scene that you're describing is right out of a horror movie. And um, and it never should have happened, and it never needed to happen because in this case, and it's it's so tragically common, yourseff when you have uh, this tunnel vision and this um,

you know, this wilful framing of innocent people. And in this case it's even worse because they really knew who the guy was. I mean, first of all, they knew and and so this woman never should have been killed. The other women that he raped in the months following the you know, the your your arrest never never should have been raped. They should have gone on and had their lives not destroyed the way they were. Um, those

kids would still have a mother. This the consequences of the actions of the authorities in this case goes so far beyond having this droid um young lives, five young lives, and and your families, and how it defect it had on your families. You know, it's amazing. I've seen the picture of your mom when you were finally exonerated, and

she's and the joy is so amazing. But but going back to this, the crazy thing is they knew from the beginning that it was a single perpetrator because this this poor woman was dragged into and the ground was wet, right, and she was dragged into this area. You know, obviously he wanted to take her to a secluded area. And for people who are not from the city, who haven't been to the city, Central Park is about three miles long and about a mile wide. It's a big place.

And she was jogging up in the northern section of the park. Um, So they knew that there was only one set of footprints in the dewey grass. They knew that there was only one There was only traces of one person's bodily fluids. And as things progressed, even though they had you guys, and they restued you guys, and

they we know, they interrogated you, each of you separately. Uh, I don't want to hear about that, because Raymond's description of that is truly terrifying when he went through for you know, for hours on end, almost almost twenty four hours without in Raymond's case, I know, in your case, but without food or water or a lawyer or an adult um and uh, ultimately ultimately everyone confess except you,

which is amazing too. I mean, the fact that you, as a fifteen year old kid, under the most intense pressure that anyone could ever face, scared out of your mind, with your life at stake, still maintained your innocence is I don't even know where that kind of strength comes from. But okay, so explain the situation. So you were brought at some point, you were arrested, You were with your friends in the park. There was you know, it was a sort of a chaotic night in the park, you know,

hot night. Whatever. How did this hall come down? How did you come to be arrested? How did you have been the police station? How did that after that? So interestingly enough, if we if we can kind of show the sneak shift off frame of reference to folks to TV shows like C side UH to n C I

S two forensics, you know these types of things. What we get is an understanding that just like you said, they had information based on their skill set as police officers and and um and so forth, to let them know, Okay, this is what happened, they could recreate the crimes being based on forensics alone. Okay, this happened first, This happened next. If we saw the blood over here and then here

it is here. We were in Central Parts. We've never denied being in Central Park, and all of the guys who became known as the Central Park five were absolute businesses to all of the mayhem that had gone on in the park. With the exception of the rape of the Jaga, no one had no idea a woman was raped, didn't know anything about it. And so here I am. At the time, I was about six ft two and two inches, very slim. Had an outfit on that was a sky blue jacket with sky blue matching pants. My

sky blue pants had artwork on it. I'm actually a person who was going to LaGuardia Um Music and Art for Arts, so I'm a great graphic designer, and I drew some stuff for my pants that was just you know how how people did back then, right, if we can think about the t shows, what we know is that when they start going into the community to try to recreate what happened and to ask people what happened, what they do is they say, okay, well, who who's there,

and folks in there in there thinking okay, damn what. There was a guy. It was a tall guy. I remember, it was a tall guy in the park with a flat I was probably maybe the most stand out ish looking for fellows because not only was our tall and lanky, but what I had at on almost looked like I was wearing white in the in the lights of the central Park. And so of course no one knew my name. None of us knew each other. I actually met Raymond

Santana and the other guys in prison. I only knew Corey. Why. But as things go further, as you can imagine, they go to the surrounding communities and start interrogating everyone. One thing leads to another, and my name is mentioned, and I'm finding out that the police officers are looking for me, And I said, well, you know what, hey, I didn't I knew I didn't do anything wrong. I'm with Corey. Corey said Hey, I left the park almost right after

we went in. We said, well, let's sort of the cops and to tell them what we saw and we'll be home before our mom gets back. So when did you get picked up? Like the crime happened at night right and the publicity happened immediately after the crime, When did you become aware of the cops were looking for you? I became aware of it. I went to school the next day. I was actually one of the only children. I had school the next day. Um, I went to school and next day came home from school and the

blocks were completely empty. It was the weirdest things that you can imagine if children didn't have school. Everybody be outside riding skateboard spikes, having fun to hanging out. And I'm looking around him, like where's everybody at? And not only that, I see a whole bunch of unmarked police cars, and so I'm like, yeah, that's is crazy. Go upstairs,

not thinking anything. I've changed my clothes and come back downstairs with my my playouts at this point, you know, and Corey's girlfriend at the time comes up to me and says, hey, when you see Corey, bring him to my house. I need to show you all something that's I said, I said, show no problems. So Corey, a little while later we go up to his top his girlfriend's house, and she shows us she turned the news

on it. At this point. It's maybe around uh for a stock or something like that, and of course they do the things breaking the music exclusives. Um women found it as far uh supposed to go on. I'm not understanding why she's showing this us. And then she looks at us and says, hey, do you have anything to tell me? And they're looking at her like, what's up,

what's up? What's going on? And she said that they're saying that this was you guys, that you're in the park last night, and this is what you all did. I said, right, no, no, no, no, no no. And then she said, and they're looking for you, and so I said, well, I'm gonna go to them and tell them what I saw. I know, I didn't do anything wrong. Colory said he didn't do anything wrong. He didn't he didn't hurt nobody or do anything bad. He left the

park after entering and we get picked up. As a matter of fact, when we when we finally got a hold of the officers. That is kind of strange and ironic that I'm saying it that way, but I was looking for them. When the officers finally seen in contact with us, they were in front of my door trying to convince my thirteen year old brother to put his clothes on and come down to the printing with them.

He had not been in the park, he didn't know what was going on, and they were trying to convince him to put his clothes on to come down to the precinct to be questioned. In the turkey that would have ended disastrously, as you can get back. I turned the corner to approach my door and they're in front of my door talking about brother, and they asked me who am I used to long to look at this documents that they had in their hands and said, this is one of the guys you were looking for there, Corey.

Who was he? And he said, um, Corey Wise And they looked at the paper instead of you're you're not on this this paper, But do you want to come downtown with your buddy? You'll be right back, and you know, you know how the story end. Of course, Corey is sixteen years old at the time. He ends up getting weilroaded and convicted and spending almost thirteen to fourteen years of the next part of his life in prison for

a crime that we all not had not committed. Wow, So he was actually the most random of them all. He just went down because he was trying to be a d d U basically right, And that was the one that was the most worst decision he ever made. He made it for the right reason. So the process that happened in the precincts, it was the Central Park precinct that you were brought to, right, that would the

initial precinct um. And then they then they you know, because Manhattan Manhattan North Homicide squad steps there and they start they are the now then they are now the officers that are interrogating. They are the ones that are saying, Okay, this is looking like a sun to be a homicide. We need to figure this out and and solve this climate top quickly and appease the fears of the public and let them know that we have the city under control.

We are in control, and we caught the so called perpetrators. So how did the interrogations go, Like what you were brought in? What was the whole process. You're brought to the precinct. You were with Corey. I was with Korey, and they immediately separated us, you know, and they started interrogating us and and and while they were asking me the questions I had, I was very very forthcoming. I said, yeah,

this is what happened first, is what happened next. I'm like, you know, thinking, hey, I'm just gonna go in there and tell them what I saw. And like I said, I'll be back home before my mom gets back. And when I when I wrapped up the first time, the guy said, okay, well what about the jock? And I'm like, what, JOCKO, what are you talking about? And he says, okay, well, let's start tell me what happened again from the top to start from the top again, and things began to intensify.

And it began to intensify in such a way that I started feeling a phrase. And then they, you know, at some point they would leave the room and come back in, and I've never seen at one point they left the room for a very very long time. And at this point, hours were going by, and I'm feeling tired, and I'm starting at doze off, and I am immediately jolted for wait because I hear Corey Wise knelling in

the next room. Cory wised. Just to give you a little big background of Corey, Corey Wise was the uh was was, probably was and still is the guy who you wanted to have as a friend because you knew that he would have your back. He wasn't gonna let nothing that happen to you. He was going to make

sure that you know you were okay. And so to hear Corey, this person who had such a big heart of fearful person, yelling and screaming okay, I'll tell you, I'm like, I'm like, oh my goodness, they're beating him up. I hear I'm smacking him around. I hear them. I hate he's under the street. He is in a position that I have never heard him in before. And that immediately joked to me a word since chills down my spine, and I'm like, oh my god, that's they're gonna kill her.

And at this point I'm scared. At this point, I'm still trying to maintain my innocence. I'm still trying to let them know what happened. And now it's like a boxing match. At any point, did you have a lawyer or a guardian, or a parent or anybody else in there with you know? And this is one of the most interesting things. I didn't know my mother had came to the priest, and I didn't know she was there.

It wasn't until after a few more hours passed at one of the I think it might have been either Fairstein or Elizabeth Letterer came into the room, I mean not the nation that comes to a knocked on the door and summoned the officer out of the room. And when they summoned the officer out of the room, they the officers came back in and said to me, how old are you? Remind you? They they they firsted me when they took me into custody at my apartment building.

They took my I D which had my I D from Mount Sinai Hospital, which I had my birthday on it. Inside my wallet had my mouth swa I D and my i'm I D. But you know, like the hospital um, your hospital cards, um I had that, I had a bus pass um and I had a a pocket knife. So they knew how old I was. So the guy comes in and says, how do you? How are you? How are you? Again? And I'm fifteen? And he curses and throws his pad across the room and says, why the act didn't you tell me that? And I'm I'm

not even knowing why is that's even relevant? I don't even understand what's going on. Then they bring me down to my mom and she's she's she's telling me, hey, do not talk to these people. I did not give them permission to talk to you. You're a minor. They need my permistion. I am not giving them permission. Don't talk to them. That's how it went. But then then what happened, because now you spoke of your mom. That must have been a very emotional situation. I mean, now

you just heard Corey getting eating up. You know that you're in real trouble. Um, your mom is there like like a lifeboat, right, like a life uh you know, uh, life saver. But um, but you're but but you're still in the custody of the cops. And then so did they then pull you away from her and put you back in the room. And they did, And that's the part, that's the craziest part. They don't have they don't have her permission. They they don't have her consent to talk

to me. That meeting was so short. I don't know how long it lacked it, but it felt like minutes. It felt like minute. It felt like it was less than five minutes. And then they brought they almost ripped me out of her arm beginning, brought me back to the back and they continue to interrogate, and I remember one of the officers, the main officers interrogating. He says, uh, you know, you don't have to tell us anything. That's fine.

You know, we have we have your We pulled your fingerprints off of her um over for short, Like how the heck did they put my favorite print off for short? Like I didn't, I wasn't there. Yeah, and that's something he said that that you know, I don't understand either. I mean, the fact that they're allowed to lie in the interrogation process is so uh, it just I don't know,

it doesn't make sense to me, But go ahead. Yeah, And I mean at this point, I'm like, oh man, I'm I'm I'm doing I'm done for But they took my trust and put it on earth. But they didn't. The fact is your prints weren't on it. They just they just lied, I mean because they're trying to pressure static. So I thinking I'm being framed and I'm like, oh, Sean, but yeah, me lied And did they did they actually beat you up like they did the other guys. No, No,

they didn't. That the threat was very real, threat was extremely real, but they didn't. They didn't touch me. And ultimately you were there for Do you even know how many hours you were in there for? No, I don't.

I know. I was brought in that evening and I remember we didn't have anything to eat a drink, and you know, being worn down from that, you know, you think about I have I have ten children, so it's a interesting dynamic when you think about, you know, how much a child could eat and so my my, uh, my fifteen year old uh consumes everything in the house. You know, you got to basically go to Costcos just for that one child alone, uh and buying bulks because

you know that they're going to eat everything, you know. Um, but we didn't get anything to eat, we didn't get anything to drink. I remember the next morning we were

we were at another prepense and they brought McDonald's. You know, and I remember eating McDonald's was the first time I had even eat and and so and you said, I mean, there's a very powerful video that I saw you do, UM, that people can watch that you did in conjunction with the New Yorker magazine and the Marshall Project, in which you talk about the fact that you thought you were going to go and as you just said you'd be home before your mind got back. Uh. And in fact

he didn't get home from seven years. UM. So from this point you never did confess, right, the other guys were And which is interesting too because of the fact and kind of amazing because of the fact that we know that false confessions are very common. Um. The general public doesn't understand. Jurors don't understand why anyone would confess

to a crime they didn't commit. But when they're under that type of pressure and their adolescence and their brain hasn't even fully formed like yours, Adnam, but what were

you in ninth grade? It's ridiculous. And so the pressure gets to people and they also think like it must have occurred to you at some point, because they you come into that room thinking, well, these are the good guys, and there's gonna be Even if these guys that in front of me are good guys, there's gonna be some other good guys that are gonna understand that are gonna save me, because I gotta get out of this room, like I gotta get away from these people who are

tormenting me, who are threatening me, who may kill me. UM. And that's what the whole you know, interrogation techniques called the red technique is designed to do. It's designed to basically make your mind collapse in on itself so that you see no other option other than to confess. So that's why false confessions are extremely common in in juveniles

and adolescence. UM. And that's important for people who are listening who are someday going to serve on a jury to know if you're if you're seeing especially a case where there's no other evidence other than a false confession, other than a confession, you really have to dive into that and you have to be aware that that confession very well maybe a false confession, and you may be dealing with an innocent person. So then it comes to the to the trial and you know you've got this

sensational trial. UM. It's so much media you guys were you know, I mean even I was buying into it back then. I'm ashamed to admit it. But there was only one narrative. There wasn't like somebody else going, well, wait a minute, maybe blah blah blah. Because they were withholding all the evidence that they had, right they knew, I mean, weeks into your case. They knew that it was impossible that you or any of the the four

guys could have done this. But they didn't care because and that's the thing, you know, when I when I when I look at a lot of these cases and I understand the law a lot more, I realized that it's not really about the fact, it's about who can tell the best stories. And in many ways, we had

an effective council. We had, you know, we were facing a situation where even the evidence that you see, you know, you would think that it's a game rate, that there's definitely going to be some some semens uh, some type

of something. Nobody had blood on them, nobody had anything on them that even indicated that they were at this place, you know, but yet they still went and stepped over the bounds of the law, manufactured evidence, like you said, and went full stream ahead because now, not only did they do this in the worst way, but I've always said that it was more attractive, it was more sexy, if you will. So they're to be five people brutally as salting one woman who was white, five five people

of color brutally assaulting a white woman. Then to there it has been with the evidence shows from the clans because one person dragging one person into the woods and trying to murder them after they raised them. Right, it's a wolf pack situation. It's it's preying on everybody's primal fears, is playing on the on the race card, everything else, and you know, and it's so it's so tragic because they knew that this Mathias Rays guy, they were already

watching him. They knew that he was a suspect and a prior rape that had many of the similar characteristics. I mean, there was this case really came with instructions and as this evidence started coming in and they became aware in a very short time after you guys were arrested, and some of the evidence probably was even before you're arrested, that it was a single perpetrator, be that it wasn't any of you guys. See that they could have so easily gone and picked up Matthias, and they would have

they would have had the guy. And we keep coming back to that, and none of these other people would have suffered the way they didn't neither would you. Um, But that that's not what happened because these people were, um, they were overtaken by ambition and publicity and accolades that they wanted to get, and they were perfectly happy to convict inness and people. It was almost like, not even inconvenient for them. It was just like, let's just get it done and and take the bows and and do

their whole thing, going on with their lives. And they have gone on with their lives. I don't know how. I don't know how they sleep at night, but they do. You know, Jason, is interesting as you talk about that, because that's one of the things that people try to get people to understand as well. This is not a situation where oh my goodness, we dropped the ball my dad, Oh my gosh, we've never done this before. This is this is a situation where it's the convince ability of

our guilt, which was we weren't guilty. But if they were able to convince the public of this lie and do it so well. I've always said, well, how many other cases after? I never forget when the Central prop five film came out that King Burns did, which was an amazing film. I never forget when it was released, people from Columbia Law was watching it. And Elizabeth Letter

is an adjunct professor at Columbia Law. I don't know if she's still there, but she was there then, and the students started an online petition to get her fired. They did not want her to teach them because in their minds they were they were looking at this case and saying, what kind of law is she gonna teach? If she said this to the Central Proas five, what is she training us to do? And they did not want her to teach them, And instead of Columbia Law

firing her, they protected her. But the documents paying a pictures that this wasn't just about we're gonna prosecute this case. We're just gonna do our jobs and you know, make sure that justice is served. We like they hated us. They hated us with every fiber of their body and wanted us to be guilted. And in that they said anything and everything by hook or by crook to make

sure that they can get a conviction. I never forget when they when they leaked out something about the DNA, they said the DNA evidence, and then they tested us and no match came back. And what did they do? They had to come out and say that no, there's no match. But they quickly swept it under the rug. Because that tsunami of media reports that was present within the first few weeks of this trial, or not even

the trial for the case being broadcast. That tsunami of media reports dwarfs any of these small little things that came out because it munted the waters and caused people to just say to themselves, there was something about DNA in this case. They don't remember that there was no DNA match. They just remembered there was something about DNA. And then when he came out in the trial and said this will there will be no DNA evidence in mistakes. What we what we will rely on for their confession,

Stay tuned, will be right back. Let's let's move to the trial itself. How long did the trial last? Man? So I want to I want to say that the trial lasted for maybe just under a year. I don't know specific time frames, but I do know that I was. I was out on bail. I was only in in in uh lock up initially for a little while. That I got out on build and that was nice. Maybe nine and how about when they convicted us? But okay, so that's weird too, because you're out on bail. I mean,

you couldn't go to school. You must have had to stay inside the house. You're one of the most notorious criminals in New York State history. At that time. It was. It was one of the worst and scariest times ever because, as you can imagine, also Donald Trump, early on, we hadn't even going we haven't even going to trial yet. Donald Trump takes out a full page ad two weeks after we were accused, and it runs in the New York News, the Daily, to the New York Times Daily News,

to post, all of the major newspapers. It runs, and it's it's an outcry. It's an outcry from someone from the darker enclaves of society two coming to our home to drag us from our bay and to hang us from trees and Central Park, to due to us what they had done to as a kill and I say that because what happened as a result of that article being that ad being brand and placed, people began to write us hateful mail. People begin to write us threatening letters.

They began to say that they were gonna that we that they hope that we would be fried and oil, that we be raped, that we would be castrated, that thirty years from now, next year is the third year anniversary of the Central Park jogger case. Twenty to thirty years from now, some people will never forget. And one letter specifically says that maybe the one time that you don't check your back is the one time that someone

must just be there to say hello. And so if you can imagine the language and and and all of the stuff that was going on back then, like they wanted to murder us. They wanted to do to us what they had done to m Hill. We became the modern day scotsporal boys, definitely, but they wanted to do to us what they had done to em Chill. Yeah,

the MTL case haunts me. It's just really one of the most just really one of the darkest episodes in American history, that that that poor kid with that little baby face that he had, but you were almost the same age as he was at the time, right he was, you were fifteen, and here you are now you're a prisoner in your own home. You have this guy who we know is a racist taking out these ads advocating a lynch mob. Um. The fact that the papers would even run these ads is insane and um. And then

then the trial comes. So how did the trial itself? And you know, obviously you were not adequately represented. I don't know if a good lawyer could have gotten you out with all the hysteria at that time, because you've been trial, you had already been tried in the media. But the fact that you know, there's that saying that in America you're better off being guilty and rich than innocent and poor. So the fact is, so you go to the trial. The trial itself lasted how many days?

Oh man? So the trial, that's that's another thing that's very foggy on me. But I know that as the trial went in, it was like okay, as it was drawing on and drawing on, and you get the very at the very end. What I remember most is I was on the phone with a friend and I never forget it was the day was the day was ending, and I'm on the phone and say, hey, this is what's going on. You know, okay, it looks like a will will uh you know, they're not gonna have a verdict.

And I'll be at the sea wall shortly. And then somebody came running down the hallway and says the verticues in the vertices and I said, man, it VERTICU is then okay, great, I'll see you soon. And I just don't know. We were all found guilty. You were trying

were you trying together? Well, they split the trial and they split the case in half, and so the first of us myself, Reman's, Antana and Ara mccreers win and then the next three that was there because it was initially called a Central Park seven and uh, Michael Briscoe was able to get out of the case um and get bread and then it became the Center Park six. And when that first trial happened, myself Reminsce, myself Remans,

Antanna and Ara mccraize. We got convicted, we lost, and the next trial was daring up Corey Wise, Kevin Richardson and Stephen Lopez, Stephn Lopez as Colfee all kind of rumors were out there about how much time we were facing. They wanted to try us as adults and convict us as adults, and they tried us as adults, and then when the convictions came down a few months later, for a little while later they gave us juvenile time. But each of these charges they were saying could have given

us three and a half were was it three? And the third three and a third to ten years? And so were the major charges. I think it was two of them. We could have been facing fiction two thirds to twenty years if they wanted to give us that kind of time. And like I said, Stephen Lope has got cold fee heard about this, these rumors. Oh my goodness, they got convicted. I can't do that much time. Let me just cop out to something that I didn't do

so I can get out of this thing. And of course we know that he copped out to robbery or something like that and got a year. U he did, he did one year and came home. I think it was one year. Um. And I was been fortunate too, because it shows, like you said, if you're poor and your innocence, you're not going to get a fair chance.

You're not going to be afforded the same opportunities of the under the law as a person who maybe more and so so that you actually believe up until the moment that the verdict came in that you were going to be exonerate. It's amazing after everything you've been through that you still had that type of and well, now that I know you as I do, the fact that you're that optimistic attitude is I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but after everything you had been through at that time, um,

it's amazing that you still maintained hope. But in fact, the worst possible outcome came to be, which is that you were found guilty and then you were taking to prison. Now you're sixteen years old, right and you're going to some of the worst prisons in America arguably the world. This is this is the worst of nightmare times twenty And that was in the juvenile facility as well. I know that Corey Wise in Burker's Island and Kors Island is incomparable to sponsor It or any of the other

juvenile facilities. You know, the worst thing that can happen to you and Jubie is that you might get sliced or you know, beat up with slife that but in Barker's Island you could die, you could lose your life. For us, that went to the juvenile facility. That was how And then when we got convicted, they sent us to one of the three maximum Agent Street facilities at the time that was there. They sent me to Harlem Valley.

They sent Raymonds and Canada goshen Uh and they spent uh and trying to create a book forward, you know, and it was the worst, worst kind of situation that you can bagine. We had to grow up very fast think about how we were going to survive when just yesterday we were riding skateboards and you know, being fru groups or something like that. I'm doing graphic design and looking forward to just just just just being a normal,

innocent child. And now yet that whole reality is gone, and it's hard to it's hard to fully describe everything that went on because my story is a little bit different because I started to really try to get some type of understanding about this. I wanted to figure out why why, Like I knew that I was infant, I knew that we hadn't done it, but here we were, we were in prison, and I was trying to figure

out why were we convicted? How did this happen? And I never forget that guy comes up to me in prison, one of the officers, and he's been watching me for a few months that I had been there at this time, and he asks me this one question, This one question changed my life. He said, who are you? And I and I in my in my in my ignorance and confusion. My answer was probably the same as anyone else, without

understanding the philosophical realm of where he was going. I said, I'm used to salon one of the guys that they accused of rape in the Central Park Joga, but I didn't do it. And he said, no, no, no no, no, I know that, he said, but I've been watching you. You're not supposed to be here, You're not a criminal.

Why are you here? Who are you? And it caused me to really evaluate my life and my circumstances, short as it may be, at a particular point in time, to to to understand things in a greater, so to speak, way, to understand that we all are here on purpose. There's things that we have to do, and we are the ones that are chosen to do that, and if they don't do it, it won't be done. Because we don't bless the world with our book. That book will never

be rich. They say the Grave daughter is the wealthiest place in the world because it's stilled with the ideas and the dreams and the hopes of people that just did not get over the hump of doing those ideas and dreams and hopes, you know. And so here I was, in this place that I was supposed to be. Damned, I'm getting a sense of purpose that I would have never really really understood had not gone through this. Did you did you maintain a relationship with that officer going forward?

Because that's deep. I mean, the first person that said that those same words to me was deep Ac Chopra. I'm not comparing this guy to deep oct Chopra, but um, but yeah, I mean what happened with I mean, did you did you continue to have dialogue with him? I did? As a matter of fact, this this guy befriended me. It was one of it was one of the many

officers that be friended me, you know. And it was weird because at the same time there was there were little things that would go on, and one time I would come back to my cell and I would see uh, tropic orange juice and instruments cookies, and it would happen to often enough that have kind of like, oh wow, this is this is kind of strange. And it happened to life choplicate kind of orange es and intimate cookies.

But in the back of my mind I had this voice playing in my head that they were trying to kill me with the food, and so I would never eat it. And one day this lady comes up to be another officer and she says, hey, have you been getting the goodies I've been leaving to you? And I said, oh wow, I didn't know you were leaving. I didn't know it was you. I said why, why, why did you do that? And she said, you said. I know

you're anything. I know you're not supposed to be here, but I can't take this key and let you go for you. So every time I come in here and you're here, I want to make good time as easy and as as as comfortable as possible, And this was her way of doing that. You've found this incredible purpose in this darkest place that you could possibly be in, and it has obviously carried you through. You ended up serving on a five to ten years sentence six years

and eight months. Let's talk about the fact that Matthias Reyes actually confessed all these years later, Um, when he met one of the Central Parky he met Korean prison, and then suddenly his conscience got to him. Imagine that he actually met the guy who was serving time for the crime that he committed, and then all of a sudden he got this attack of conscience. I think he may have found religion by then or I don't know what,

but anyway, it doesn't matter. He confessed. How did you find out that you now had this ray of light and that you you know that that you were you were now going to be actually had a real chance

of becoming being exonerated. So you know, when we heard the news, just like everyone else and our our attorneys, but telling us about how you know what happened, and you know, one of the worst things that, of course happens in the case like that is if you've been ran all about the piplos of justice once you absolutely do not trust that they are going to do the right thing this time. And so I've felt like, okay, you know this, this this the world words that came out.

He he confessed the crime, confessed in a compelling way that that lets them know that he alone did this. They DNA and long behold his DNA matches, And like I said, then they when they tested his DNA and his DNA matched, they knew beyond a shadow of a doubt. Oh my goodness, we did the wrong things and convicted the wrong guys. And we have to fix this. And

so the judge vacaid our conviction. A matter of fact, as we as we go forward, we see that Robert Morgan's office as man, had we known then what we know now, we would have never convicted them. And I'm appreciative and happy that he said that. But what we all submit is that they did know that then. What they knew now, they did know Robert Morgan thought had people working for him and under him that should have ever went after us. And it cost the city millions

of dollars. It costs a million, Well, it costs so much more than just the millions of dollars they had to pay out, because it also cost, as we said, the lives of these other innocent people. That cost your lives it cost your family untold heartache and paying it cost tax money that we, uh, we had to pay to keep you guys incarcerated. Right, that's that runs into the millions of dollars when you're talking about forty years

of prison time collectively or more. When and then we talked about the lost the lost taxes that you could have been outside paying. Right if you guys were if you guys had gone through your normal schooling and come out and then become gotten your jobs, whatever you're gonna be doing, and they've been paying taxes, you would have been contributing to society. So it's a it's a loss for society in every conceivable way. And it was preventable

and it's despicable what happened. And I think everybody owes you a tremendous apology. And so I'm going to apologize to you on behalf of New York City and America and the human race because none of this, none of this should have ever gone down the way it did. Um and and let me I want to get to the to what you're doing now, but and and talk about your public speaking and other advocacy worked that you're doing.

But before we get to that. Um. So so you had this euphoria, it still took all this time to put your life back together, but you've done it. And to see you now, um, no one would ever know that you had been through this stuff. I mean today, are you better? You know I'm not better. I think that what it is is that we've been able to take our circumstance. And when I say we, um, I know that myself in Raymonds, Antina, we've gone out and we've spoken a lot more than the other folks of

the gentleman in the central charge of case. Um. But what the idea is that to be able to take this this this uh part, just this really horrific part of life in turn it into something beautiful. And so I'm reminded of what Nelson Mandela said when he was talking about how he had to be in in the world and what he had to leave behind in the prison. He said he had to leave anger and resentment and bitterness in the prison because and we all hear him say,

it's liking. It's like drinking poison and expecting your enemy to die. So use that anger. You write it, you painted, you dance it, you march it, you voted. You do everything about it. You talk, it never stopped talking. And so I say that because I've been trying to utilize my energy and my platform to articulate what happened to us in a way that makes sense, so that other folks can understand how important their role is and how important they need to be as regards to what happens

in the criminal justice system, you know. And so I've taken that anger and I redirected it. I transformed it, and I made it into something that is more beautiful and more powerful. And and and this is where I stand now. And let me ask you this. So if people want to know you're doing a lot of public speaking, you have a book. Um, but if people want to have you come and speak, how did they reach out of you? How do they contact you? What's the name

of the book? Let's give a nice plug for any of your social media or anything else that you want to talk about. Yeah. Absolutely, I used my real name on social media so so folks can connect with me. Um use salam. Why U S T S S A L A A M on all social media platforms. My photo is there so that you'll know it's me. The name of the book is Words of a Man. It's on my website. My website is use speaks dot com. That's why U s E S S P E A

k S dot com. And you know, folcusing book be by emailing me why U s s that you speaks dot com. You said that use speaks dot com. And I worked for myself, so I'm you know, people can book me, people can bring me UM, and so I can travel UM. And this is where it's not being able to bring these real life stories into spaces that can really affectuate change, whether at the universities, whether it be forums, UM wide and broad. So the last thing I would like to do is is usually the last

thing we do here on the show UM. And it's actually my favorite part of the show, and I think probably a lot of people's favorite part of the show. This is the part of the show where I get quiet and I like to just turn the microphone over to you for last words. Anything that's on your mind, anything that you can share that will give people some new perspective in your own words. So what I want to do and in this moment is take people back

in time. And I love to do this because it's something that I do on the role of my sign engagements. But take them back into the courthouse. I take them back to the day right after I got convicted, and here we were standing in front of the judge and we were about the sentence, and they axed us, do you have anything to say before we sent Confused and rather than throwing myself on the most mercy of the court like everyone has been telling me, I had been

reading Maltha Max. I had been reading about Market Garvey. I had a reading about countless individuals who were freedom fighters trying to fight the justice. And what I stood up and said to the judge was said, I said, I'm not gonna sit here at your table and watch you eat and call myself dinner. Sitting here at your table doesn't make me dinner, just like being here in

America doesn't make me an American. Let us begin stresses the anger that is built up inside rage is the anger that is no longer built taking on the sucker that soon you have killed American free will doesn't mean you can kill and take another person's life. You live your life, tripe. I'm a skill builder. Some one skills I do build. We had to give a knowledge to this lies black man soon to enhance my words across the land. I'm a smooth type of fellow, cool, common mellow.

I'm kind of laid back. But now I'm speaking so that you know. I got used and abused and even was put on the news without cruise from gay cruise, selling out like fools. Now checked this, who did what and who did who? Ends? But the situation that you don't know what's doing, some brothers go wild and we're not down with them. Who would have thought I'd have to lock in? I sent choose checking the scene from how the situation was. Instead of getting facts, the media

made you blurred how other people don't know. All they see is the media. They never hear the blame because they're constantly deceiving us. The d A is dead wrong. This is her master plan. This case is not a case. It's just to craft the sham joe instead of trying to get your name made this reconstructing the crime that really paid me. It's law la ilaha, evil law being supreme over Satan, but no man as a law as I'm a science dropper on the righteous path, So how

the hell could I take a racist path? Think about that, and then think about this. All my friends it was me. They just said the smith because I don't really need any friends like that, like when I really needed you. Where we get at. I'm not disting them all, but the ones that I called, they went and just me like I was an inch small, like a rat, a mouse, not even the man wrongly accused, like the knives in

my hands. How does it look? Me? Clock now, I'm sure, but like Matlock soon you accused, it took the hook. It's real when she remembers and says, damn the cops that you went. I stand the queues, your people stop this racial dispersed and you know you've seen that kid, Vincent. He's in the hurt. And so we take it just this and hurst Fields white tide bullet proof best. We had no kind of shields. How does it look they killed the black man being black? It's time we take

a stand in our situation. You saw our faces clear, but not mine. Not because of fear. It's because the black grace was disgraced. And for the Muslims, they must have felt shamed. But I'm not to blame with the words of thought. The media took our words of paper, the ones the cops distorted. I told the cops truth like this, and then boom, they were smacking my man, Corey Wise in the next room. Now, I want to know why the Bosters can't stand the Bobby Lawn. They

never helped. They just babble lawn. I used to think the people and cops were cool, But who protects us from you? I stand the queues and as I wrapped it up, the judge's face was getting angrier and angrier, and I could tell they were about to throw the book it. And then I took my seat, and they gave me the maximum amount of time that they could give me with this five pretent, and they hoped that they could have gaven me more. I'm sure that's what

I said. That actually is a is one of the poems that's in my book Words of a man Um that's on my website. I also when I come around and speak, I usually have some with me as well. Well. All I can say is, um, you know, I wish you all the best, all the blessings of life. I'm so happy to see you thriving, building your family, building your career, and spending the word alongside so many of us in the movement, UM and uh. I look forward to working with you and spending time with you in

the future. And I just want to thank you again for taking your time to be on the show, UM and I want to thank the audience also for listening. This has been a very special and moving episode of Wrongful Conviction, so yusef thank you again. I pleasure thank you for having don't forget to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the Innsis Project and I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very important cause

and helping to event future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wardis. The music in the show is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam is a production Lava for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one