#098 Jason Flom with Raymond Santana

And Raymond is, of course featured in the hit Netflix show When They See Us, which prepared on May thirty one, two thousand nineteen. And it's so great to see him out and about in the spotlight, spreading a good word, beaming out that positive energy that he has. I also encourage you to watch Raymond and I did a speech together. If you google my name and Nantucket project, you'll see it right away. Raymond, you deserve all the success and more.

And now please listen to the first episode, the premier of raul Conviction with Raymond Antana. I came from a beautiful neighborhood, had a beautiful life. I went to sleep because September seven, who was the first day of my high school year. I was gonna be a senior. At twenty two, I was set to start college. I woke up and my life was never the same again. Cops came out with guns drawn, and I never saw freedom ever ever since after that. It's like roach Moke town.

Once you get in, you're not getting mapped. On April fourteen year old Raymond Santana was arrested and charged with one of the most notorious crimes in the history of New York City, the rape and brutal beating of a woman who became known as the Central Park jogger. Five youths were arrested at nineties Street, all between fourteen and fifteen years of age. Police are still questioning some of the young suspects they believe were involved in last night's attack.

Immediately following the crime, New York City Police picked up Raymond and four other teenage boys. They were interrogated separately. They were denied food, water, and access to lawyers, and they were held for between fifteen and thirty hours until each of them confessed to a crime they did not commit. And he says, so where were you? And I said, what I saw it from a distance. I was witnessing it, and he said that's not good enough. He said, you have to place yourself at the scene. You have to

be right there watching it. All five of them were convicted. This is wrongful conviction. With Jason Flamm, I want it so bad, Raymond. Welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. Raymond. I want to go back and talk about your crazy life story because I lived through it. I'm a New Yorker and I remember very well seeing your face on every front of every newspaper. You were one of the most hated people in New York City at the time. Is that's fair to say that correct?

You were like the face of evil. There is anger over this incident that seems to have only grown in the days since the assault occurred. I also wanted to take them after they get at jail and put him in a grilla cage in the park Zoo, the New Zoo, see if they could survive it. I think that's analogous to what they did to her. The punishment has to fit the crime castrat um. They can't only one problem. You didn't do it. That's a big problem. That's a big problem. But I want to go even further back

than that. First of all, what's your where are you from? What's your family from? Let's talk about your childhood before this all came down. Yeah, Um, originally I was I was born in ham moved to the Bronx. My my my dad was from Puerto Rico. Mother was born here. Um, she's Puerto Rico and know so. Um, and my childhood was like any other childhood, right, middle class family. Father works you know at a hospital. Um he was there for about forty four years or total. Um. My mom's

was a housewife. Um. It was me and my sister growing up. So you're growing up. I mean you were fourteen years old when this happened, right, Yeah. I mean and when I think about how young that is, many of the audience have kids, teenage kids. I mean fourteen, you're a child. I mean, at fifteen or sixteen, you're starting to become moving towards adulthood, right, but at fourteen,

you're a child. Let's face, at fourteen, you know, my dad wasn't even thinking about all right, let me sit them down and fill out an application, right, show him how to do that, you know, show him how to take a girl on the date, like that stuff. Wasn't even coming in yet that maybe you're shaved once by then maybe not not even you're not going on dates. Yeah, you're like eighth grader pretty much. Yeah, I was about yeah, yeah. Seven.

So let's go back to the night of this horrendous crime and this terrible nightmare that you and the other four, um, the other four guys went through. First of all, you didn't know those guys, did you. So the case, let's talk about the case a little bit, so the Central Park Jogger case. The fact is Central Park Joger case. This was in the I guess it was in the early nineties, right, and eighty nine, right, So the crime in New York City was out of control at that time.

There was a lot of fear, a lot of panic, a lot of violence, and this case hit all the trigger points because what happened was there was a woman, a wealthy woman from the Upper East Side, white woman, who was jogging in the park and at night and was attacked, dragged into the bushes and raped and beaten almost to death. This became a huge, uh flash point, a lot of pressure on the cops to figure this

out real quick, right. I imagine the mayor everybody must have been calling like, get this figured out right now, So let's go, let's go to the night of the of the Climes. So where were you? What were you doing? Well? Um, it started out because I lived originally, I lived on a hundred and nineteen street in between Lexington and Park,

right next to the twenty fifth Precinct. So so ironically, yeah, all right, and so some guys that I went to school with living in Taft Houses, which is, you know, roughly about five six blocks away, and that night we plan to go to Shaunburg because there was a party there that the housing project. Yeah, that's where use of and and Kevin and Corey they live over there. So so I didn't know these guys. Yeah, I didn't know these guys, and but there was mutual friends within their

group and there was mutual friends within my group. And that's how we came to meet up in front of Shaunburg and talk to these guys. And then from there where just so people who are saying that I don't expect people to know this, but Central Park goes from fifty New York and it goes from Fifth Avenue to

Central Park West. This crime happened in the northern section of the park around a hundred and second street, right, So naturally the cops are up there looking and they're looking for, you know, suspects in that area, but you weren't. I mean, you were still a good half a mile away at least from the crime scene at this point. So the Schenberg houses, how did you let's get to where? How did you get picked up? Where? Where did you

guys go from the Schenberg House? Why did you happen to be standing somewhere that the cops would happen to look at you and say, let's grab this guy and the other guys. So what happened was that we went into the park, right, and so me just looking at something to do, yeah, because we was out out there talking. There was a bunch of guys, and then guys started going into the park in that hundred of tenn Street area right there on the corner, because that's the corner

of the park. They lived right across the street from it, and so that was something that they did all the time, Like they always went into the park and hung out in that corner area on a hunt intenstory fifth. Yeah, So to them that was like their backyard. You know, the Shaun Berg boys always was in the park. Um. And so we did go with the park with them. Um. And then from there we wind up traveling into the park. They did walk into the park and they wind up

traveling going south into the park. Um. Now, there was some things that happened that night because it was a very large group at this time. You know how many kids we're talking over thirty kids. And you were with this group. I was with the group, but I didn't know I didn't know majority of them. I knew just the guys that I came with, and you were the youngest, the one of the youngest. Yeah, I was one of

the youngest. Um. And so there were some guys in there who were rowdy, right, and so one guy did get assaulted. It was an Hispanic man. And then um, I think three people got solced by the reservoir. When that happened is when we left reservoirs in the park. Yeah, it's in the park, um. And so when that last incident happened with those three people is when the group left. Like the guys who I came with, they was like we were leaving the park. And so as we left,

the Park. We was on Central Park West, like going around a hundred and second street, and that's where the police came. And I got picked up at it. And so the guys who I came with, um they had left, and so I was there walking with a group of people who I didn't know, and so small, a small group, and so when the police did approach, that group scattered, and so one of the officers grabbed me. And then there was another kid who we grabbed. My name is

Stephen Lopez, who I didn't even know. And then they grabbed you because you didn't run, because I didn't run, And why didn't you run? Because I didn't do anything, So there was no reason to run. Yeah, I didn't do anything, And so you trusted the cops at this point, Yeah, yeah, yeah. I never had no dealings with them. I never had no bad experience with them, so you know, it was no reason for me to run, right, And so you know, I just I told him myself, well why are you

stopping me? Because I didn't do anything, and and he pulled, he had to walk, he talking. He hit me over the head with the K talkie right put me on the wall. So I just did the war and I ain't say anything. And then he also grabbed Steve Lopez and put him on the wall. And by this time the rest of the group, that look group that he was with, they scat it. Okay, So anyway, so they take so they arrest you. Do you know why you're

being arrested? No, I just want to don't. Do you know anything about the central part geography situation hadn't even gotten out, you know, no, not not nothing, because we didn't have social media back then everything like that. It's not like you were checking your phone and there's an alert that comes in from the sea. There wasn't no phone. I didn't have no phone. So okay, so now you just you know what's going on now. I don't know

what's going on now. Now there was some instance that happened in the park that I saw, but you know, I didn't have nothing to do with that. So so to me, it's like, you know, it's nothing word about You're fourteen. I mean, you're probably not in a great position to attack anybody anyway. You probably the one at that point. I was, you know, ninety pounds, so yeah, you know, I was a small guy, so not nothing

real scary about ninety pounds. Um. So okay, so they take you to the precinct in the park, right, So again for audience, the precinct that is in Central Park. There's a Central Park precinct, that's what it's called. So they take you to the precinct and what happens next. And so I'm there with because me Stephen Lopez, we got picked up the same time. Um. There's another guy, well, Kevin Richardson gets picked up two right because also Powers

goes into the park. He chases Kevin Richond down. Richardson down, He hits him in the face with the helm and he tackles him, he arrests him. Um. And so there's him, and then there's two other guys, uh, Lamart McCall and a kid by the name of Clarence. So so this is the five of us that get picked up. Um. And so we're sitting in the precinct together together. So you know, you go through like the whole taking to the pictures, you know, like a mug shot and um,

stuff like that. And then they sit us in this room and they say, all right, make your phone call and had your parents come pick you up. Um. Because originally what we were given with dessappearance tickets right to appear in family court. So so you know, the charges then were like trust passing, ah, menacing, These are all like misdemeaned charges that they gave us. And so then we just had to sit and wait until um our parents came to pick us up. Right, So you called

your mommy dad. I called my dad, right, and then you got him on the phone. I got him on at least, yeah, yeah, because by that time it was like maybe like ten eleven o'clock at night and and yeah, and again no cell phones back then. I want to picture here, right, so you know, if somebody's not home, they don't answer the phone. Yeah. I had to call about two or three times because he was sleep so so okay, so he answered the phone. He must be

freaking out. Yeah, he's piste off, you know. Um, And so I told him, I gotta, you know, you gotta come down and pick me up. And uh, he speaks to the officer off and tell him you got to pick me up. So he does, all right. He doesn't have a car, so they said they supposed to be sending the car to pick him up, to come down and pick me up and so uh so you're sitting there for hours and hours. Yeah, and the time you're probably hungry. Yeah, all of us is in the in

the room a little bit bigger than this. Um, not in the cell though, not in the cell. It's so okay. So then so so okay, So your dad comes eventually, right, eventually he can't take no. Um, all the parents show up. My dad is the last one to come. He shows over my grandmother. Um. They get there like maybe three four in the morning. UM, So he asked what's going on? So they tell him. They explained to him that it's just the disappearance ticket. We have to pay a family court.

They're gonna release us. So he goes, okay, so he has to go to work. So he tells my grandmother asked my grandmother to stay. Um. So my grandmen said all right, you know, he said, he's gonna le him go take him home. I deal with him later. So

he goes to work, my grandmother stays there. And then what happens is that, um, they move us out of the small room into the waiting area with our parents, and they say, like they can't let us go because the detectives won't talk to us, but they don't say why. Now it's three, four or five in the morning. Yeah, you got picked up at at a ten eleven o'clock. So now we're talking like, yeah, it's a long night.

We're talking like five six in the morning, maybe even seven, um, and so, uh, you know, we don't know what's going on. We're just sitting there waiting. Have you heard about the central party? Still don't know and still don't know anything. Um, but you're sure not gonna ask a lot of questions if you got hit in the head with a radio. Yeah, that's right, that's right, that's right, that'll question and especially if you know that I'm gonna be released. So they're

not gonna make any ways, no, you know. Um. So we're sitting in his waiting room for hours and detectives coming. They talked to Kevin, take Kevin in the room, and then he's in there for hours. So we don't know what's going on. Right, Well, it's eight o'clock in the morning, it's no By the time they've done with him, it's maybe like one too al in the afternoon, and you're still sitting there and we're still sitting to give you anything to eat. No, we're just sitting there, no water

or anything. We're just sitting there, just sitting there. Time to just sit there. Yeah. And so after Kevin is I remember them taking Kevin out of the room and they don't let him come and sit with us. They you know, they take him straight out, straight out the all the office and he leaves. Um, he leaves the precincts. And so they called me in next and so I'm sitting there with my grandmother. So the detective, you know, he uh he uh. He introduced himself as detective from

birth or royal. Right. He's in the room and and he says, you know, Raymond, uh, we just want to sit down and talk to you about some of the events that happened that night. And so go, okay, you know, you know, what do you want to know? And so we're going to the whole lot of questions of who I was with, who I came with, what did I see, where was I asked? Stuff like that, what time did I leave, how did I get picked up? And so you know, he doesn't he doesn't say anything to me

about the jagga for a while. He talks about just what happened that night. What did I see? And who was I with? Right? And so I tell him that, yeah, I did see uh these guys assault you know, the homeless man. And I did see some of these guys through box at joggers who were running on the reservoir and and there was one kid who who did assault uh, one of the joggers. And and based on that assault is when I decided that it was time for me

to lead a park. And so that lot of the question that goes on for hours, and then you know, he gets he he you know, he says to me, well, what happened to the jaga? And I said, well, what, Jocka, what are you talking about? And he says the woman? And I say what woman? I never saw a woman.

And he said, so you didn't see the woman jogging center in the park and I said no, and m I said, the only woman I saw was when we first entered the park, there was a guy walking with his girlfriend and he walked through the through the group, and everybody moved out the way and let him and her pass. And I said, that's the only woman I saw. There was no other woman. And and so we went back and forth about that for a little bit right, because he kept trying to you know, you know, asking

me the same questions. You didn't see a woman jogga woman was raped And I'm like, no, there was no woman raped that, Like, I didn't see anything like that. And he said, um, yeah, of course there was. And I'm like, no, it wasn't. And so from there that's when the line of questions saw us to change. Now things get a little more scary still, just the one detective in you in the room and your grandmother, Yeah, and my grandmother. But what happened? But your grandmother she

didn't speak good English. She didn't speak She couldn't carry a conversation. She knew curse words, right, she could sit then curse you out of English words. But she couldn't carry a conversation. That's kind of funny better, Yeah, it is, especially when she used to say it. It's interesting, right, I mean that your case was based on a false confession. Um. People, I've been I've been working on innocence issues for twenty years. And one of the things people always asked about, how

could anybody compass through a crime they didn't commit. It seems crazy, Why would somebody do that? You basically fucking yourself, like totally right, and I understand it. But to the audience, I think a lot of people probably wanted the same thing. Why the hell would anybody do that? I mean, you really really have to be nuts to do that, right, But you're not nuts. Don't seem nuts at all. So, um,

the very large percentage. Well, first of all, the first two or fifty DNA generations, forty of them involved uh,

false confessions. So it's a very big number. And we know that of those very large percentage of those involved teenagers because we know that there's a thing called course compliant confessions, right, where you're basically being convinced that something good is going to happen for you if you say what the detective wants to hear, right, that you're gonna get to go home, or you're gonna get better treatment,

or you're gonna get something. And there's a there's a thing called the Read method, right, which was developed in Chicago, um by this guy named Read and working with a psychologist I think he was a detective, where they basically talk you into, you know, in a very sort of smooth way, they get you to tell a story that they want to hear which may have may have no relation to the truth, but it makes their jobs easier.

And then there's a lot of gray areas outside of that too that lead to false confessions, including you know, force threats, other things. Um. But so in your case because it's you know, obviously, that's what it came down to. It. It's the most powerful thing to a jury to when you hear a false confession and you're in a jury.

And we've seen cases, many cases where it was DNA that proved that the guy couldn't have been the guy that did it in the first place, presented to the jury and the jury was like, they, I don't know the guy said he did it, so there must be some crazy other explanation because I'm gonna I'm not gonna

look at the science. I'm not gonna believe science. It's almost like that Chris rock line, right, he says when you when you if you walk in uh, if your girlfriend walks in on you with another woman and it catches you with nag you, who are you gonna believe me? Or you're lying in eyes? Right, So it's almost like that. But anyway, so back to this, So, so you're so now you're you're there. You've gotta be getting feeling desperate

by now. You've got to be exhausted, confused, tired, definitely, definitely, and over and you're overmatched. They've got they've got the whole way to the New York City Police Department behind them, right, and they've got detectives, experienced detectives. And you've got your grandmother who can alway speak English curse words, yeah right, and that's basically the team, that team Santana right now,

that's right. You're a fourteen year old, ninety nine pound kids and grandma who you know, may may whip out a little English turrets, but other than that, she's speaking Spanish and this and then this interrogation is not being conducted in Spanish. So so okay, So so now it's it's you've been there for fourteen fifteen hours, by right, And now how does it turn? How does he get you into this? How did they convince you to confess

to this crip? All right? So, so what happens is that the line of questions starts to become a little more forceful, right, you know, he uh, he saw us to get frustrated, He saw us to get upset at me. You know, he says that I'm not telling him, um, what it is that he wants to hear. He says that I'm holding stuff back. Um. You know, even when my grandmother intervenes, he tells him in Spanish, I'm not

telling him everything. That he feels like I'm hiding things. Um. And so, you know, you have to look at the dynamics of the situation and and understand that I was a kid, I was fourtune. I never had no involvement with the law. You know, He's a season veteran detectives who do this daily and so, and he wants a confession, and he wants a confession. You know. By now, this case is on the front page in the newspaper. It's the number one thing in New York City. And the

press made you guilty. The whole New York City was convinced that these were the guys who saw their pictures everywhere. Of course, they took the scariest pictures they could find of your guys, right, make it look like criminals, and and plastered those everywhere. And so, yeah, you were you weren't public enemy number one at this point. At this point, yeah, and so he knew that even there was a pressure

with them to get this confession. And so so for me, what happened was that, um, there's a knock at the door, right, So there comes to knock at the door, and this detective comes in who speaks Spanish, and he talks to my grand mother and he says, listen, can you step out? Another guy and uh, he asked myrn can she step outside?

And he's talking to him span he takes out on the hallway and he closes the door, and at that point the line of question becomes a little more harsher, right, it becomes stop lying to me, You're gonna give me what I want. And in that same instance, as she goes out, another detective comes in, and so the third one third third guy right, real tall detective, UM, slim guy. And he comes in and he's making a small talk with a royal and I'm just sitting in the chair.

I don't know what's gonna happen. And then he gives me this look and he says, what the funk are you looking at? Right? And you know there's apartment I wants to say who me, but I don't say ship. I just stay quiet and then um, and and then he makes like this step towards me right, and I go, oh, ship, this guy is about to kick my ass right, But

at that moment there's the knock. Right the door opens, my grandmother walks in, the detective walks out, and so my grandmother sits down, and I'm like, whof you know, I just got saved, right, And so you know, the Royal starts from the top, Okay, who were you with? What did you do? What did you see? What's going on? And I give him the same story, you know, during this line of question. It goes on for a couple of hours, and then it comes another knock at the door.

So now the same knock comes, the same detective comes in talking Spanish, speaking Spanish to my grandmother. So he says, is this is comeback? Who did it? And the Royal says yeah, but he's not giving us what we want

to hear. And so um, he pulls his chair really close up and he sits down and he starts to talk in my ear, and he's talking real forcefully, and he's not really loud, but you know, I could just I could feel the pressure on my ear from talking and he says, you know you fucking did it, You know you did it. You're going to jail. And as he starts to talk, then the Royal starts to yell

at me. So I got them coming from two different angles, right, and I could just sit in the chair and freeze because I don't know what to do, right, and so there is nothing to do, and and so he's yelling in my ear and he says, you're going to jail, You're going to prison, you fucking did it. And then the Royal was yelling at me, and that not comes right, and detective let lets my grandmother back in, and at that point I start to cry a little bit, right, So now right, my this guy gets up, he walks

right out. So my grandmother comes and she sits down, and now she looks at me, and she can see like something is wrong, right, and and she sees the tears, but she don't know because she doesn't see anything else happening. She just sees me, right, and then she goes, well, what's going on, and and the Royal says, no, you know, like I told you before, you know, we just feel

like he's not telling us everything. He's holding something. And then he says, well, let's start from the top once again, Raymond, tell me who were you with and what did you see? And We're going through the whole story. And by this time I'm kind of beat down, right, I haven't slept, i haven't ate nothing, and so I'm just sitting there and I'm talking to him, and then comes the knock

one more time. Right, the same detective comes in. He says, MS, cologne, when you come out, and she gets up right, she gets up and she walks out and the door closes. He starts talking to me, and then he gets frustrated. Right, Detective Royal gets frustrated. He starts cursing at me. You're gonna fucking tell me what I want. I'm tired of this ship, and and he bangs on the table, you know, really hard. And at this point he lunges at me, right, and I go, ship, this is it. I'm gonna die, right,

And it's precinct. And so when he lunges at me, somebody stops him, right. So the whole time they was a detective behind who I didn't see. He stops him, right, So, what the fund are you doing? Starts cursing, what the fund? Is going on. You gotta get him a class e fourteen years old. I don't know that. Everybody watches talking about listening now, yeah, you don't know. You're scared ships out of your mind. See aside, Lord Nord, I don't know this stuff. And and he kicks get out of

the room. Get out the room, get the royal, gets up, leaves out. The guy closes the door, right And at that moment, I'm like, whoever this guy is. He just saved my life. He's my friend, and you know, and he now I have a little hope. He says, hey, you know, Raymond, you don't know me. I'm Detective hard again, right, and and I hear what's going on, and you know it's a serious case, serious crime. And he goes into like he pitches it so well where he's like, you know,

you're a good kid. You know, I know you didn't do this, but these kids didn't, these other priestincts and they're saying you did it. And I don't want you to go to jail. You know, you gotta help me here. I'm trying to help you. You want to go home, right, He just saved you, babe, just save your life and so he a terrific guy. He's that's the proof. He just saved me from getting killed in the priests. So I'm like, yeah, he's he has my best interests at hard,

you know. And he says, you know, I need you to help me. You gotta give me some At this point, You're like, I don't want to help this guy. Yeah, this guys didn't get me out of here, you know, So what does he need you to do? So so he pulled out this picture of Kevin Richardson and he says, do you know this guy? And I say no, And he said what this is Kevin? And you see the scratch on his face? And I said yeah, because he had the monk shot. You can see it because you know,

you can see it. And he says, well that that scratch came from the job when she was fighting them all. Now, I know, we know he's going to jail, right, you can't do them about that. But I don't want you to go to jail. So you gotta give me something. You gotta help me here, right, I'm trying to help you. You gotta help me. You want to go home, right, you gotta help me. And then he just left the picture. Then he sat back and he just waited, he just

he just got quiet, you know. And as a fourteye old kid, I'm sitting there saying, I don't even know this guy, right, but I'm trying to get this pressure to stop, because if this guy leaves the room, then I gotta deal with these detectives coming back in here again. And this is all gonna start all over again. It's never gonna it's never gonna add And so you know, for me, you know, I'm a fourte ye old kid, right,

what do we do at fourteen? We know how to lie to our parents, all right, And so that's what kind of mind, my king of mind was lie, you know. And and so I said, well he did it, and so I said, well he did it, and he said he did what? And he said, well he reaped the woman? And he said, all right, what else did he do? What did you see him do? Here's a clip of Raymond's confession which was used at trial. He was him

anytimes he was told. And so I actually sat there in fabric of the story just involving Kevin Richardson, right, because in my mind, that's the only picture you gave me. So he's the rapist. Well, and you're going home, and I'm going home and and and I'm lying. But so what you figured out out later on, So what happened was that he said, okay, so what did you see him do? So I said, I saw Kevin struggling with this woman and he took it down, and he said, did you see him rapem? And I said yeah. And

then he said, well, what about and Trau mccraig. And I go, well, I don't know who an Trau McCray is. And he said, well, hey, you know he was there and I said he was? He said yeah, he said, you know, we know he was there, and I said, okay,

whoa you know, Anton was holding the all you know? Um, by the way, what's crazy about all of this, on top of all the other stuff that's crazy about all of this, which is everything, is that So we of course find out later that the woman was that was raped by one guy and one guy only, and that

they knew this. So here they are. If they got the right guy among the five of you, they still got four guys that they know that they're not possibly have had anything to do with this, but they have no problem with that but they have no problem that they sleep at night, they go home their families, everything's fine. I never understand that. I don't understand it. So now they got the two guys, They got you identifying the two guys in there, and and and then the third

one is Stephen Lopez. So so they said, well what about Stephen. I go, wow, No, I don't know Stephen. He said, well, he was there. You know, you gotta put him in there. He was there. And so at this point you're already deep into this tail of lying you through your teeth anyway you're like, and you're more and more tired and hungry and everything else. Yeah, yeah, with Stephen Lopez. You know, I didn't know Stephen. Stephen was sitting out and waiting area, and um, I didn't

know who he was. And he said, well, we know Stephen did it. And he said, you know this woman, you know, she lost a lot of blood and we don't know she's in the and we know that she had all these injuries on it, and it had to come from somewhere. So he said, they had to come from me, the rock, a brick, or a pipe, right, And so this is what he told me. So he actually gave me options to choose which one And then I said a brick. And he said, well, who you

the brick? And I said Stephen Lopez. And so that became the brick that was introduced later on in the case, which we never there never even was a brick. Then, yeah, exactly. The prosecutor brought in the brick that she said was used to bash the woman's head in the driver's headed into the trial. Right, yeah, that's that's correct. What happened is that she, uh, you know, because of my statement

said it was a brick that was used. Um, she brought the brick in during the trial, and she presented the brick and and and she says that this is the brick that was using the ASSAULTUM on the jocks. She held it up, She held the brick up and and powerful her jury. Right. No, definitely, and and the and the brick also the next day it was on the front of the New York news day. You know, a brick, A brick had his own front page. Each couple on the New York and said this was the

brick that was used in the Dogger case. And so when they did the reinvestigation years later, um and they tested the brick. There was no blood on it. There was nothing on the brick. So they just found a brick somewhere and who knows where they got it from.

That could have been on the way from the prosecutor's office come to the court house, and he picked up and said, this is it, right, Yeah, she probably had it on her desk like a paperweight from just so proud of it, right, So ridiculous, it's so fucking ridiculous, the fact that she would hold up a brick when there was no brick. I mean, we're in imagination land now, like deep into like I mean, that's kind of psychotic. But yeah, I just uh, I mean at that point, yeah,

you're you're screwed. The jury scenes at and they're like, that's the that's the brick, that's that. Poor woman, these scary kids, a poor woman. Oh my god. This this fight was fixed from the beginning. This fight was fixed. Talk about a brick shit house. That's not a great analogy, but you know what I'm saying. And so afterwards, you know, he wrote everything down and then he said, you know, all right, you did great, sign it. And then I signed it. And then he said why don't you do.

I used two more things for me and then and then you got to go. And I said, well what? And he said, I used to give it the same statement that you have here in front of you, give this to another detective and then do the video tape. And I said, all right. It was fine because in my mind, you know, this was the guy who saved me, right, and so he was making sure that I was gonna go home. Right. This is gonna be evidence of you

not doing it right. It's right in your in your twisted mind at this point, which has been jumbled up in twenty different ways, you're thinking, oh great, this is gonna be more evidence that will prove that I didn't do it. So how did they even now? It seems like if I'm listening to the podcast, I'm saying, well, okay, but you didn't really say anything that you did it. So where is the confession come in? Right? And so?

And this was really when when I heard you speak last time, I was really, uh, it really hit me hard. I've been thinking about it a lot. So how did they get you to place yourself? I mean, you saw it, right, but that's not a crime. Wit the singer crime it's not a crime. You didn't go to prison for witness

singer crime. Okay, So, so so how's it now? It goes now, it goes downhill fast, yeah, because what happens is that and even the way he did it, you know, he said listen, He said, okay, So, so you saw Kevin raped the woman. You saw Stephen Lopez hit her with the brick, and you saw and trauma. Craig was holding it right, and he said, so where were you? And I said what I saw it from a distance. I was witnessing it. And he said that's not good enough.

And I said, what do you mean is now? He said, you know you can't sit there and witness it from a distance because it's questionable night time. It's night time. How could you see Kevin, you know, having sex with this woman? He said, you have to place yourself at the scene. You have to be right there watching it, right, And I said okay, And he said that's the only way it's gonna be believable. Did he offer you anything to eat or drink at this time? And even the

nice guy didn't even nice guy didn't do that. Nice guy came in and said, this is it, right? Here, and and and so. But you can see now, you can see daylight. You're like, I'm going to get out of here. I'm almost done. I'm almost done. I'm almost done, you know. Like like Kevin said in the film, he said, at this point, you just have to sell it. And so he says, you have to place yourself right there. You have to see everything in order to say that

you saw it. You know, where were you? And I said, well, I was there and he said, okay, where And I said I was on the side and he said, what did you do? And then I said, well I reached over and I grabbed the joggers breast and he said, that's all you did, right? And I said that's all I did? And he said, okay, all right. And so and what what possessed you to say that? Because that you kind of pulled that one out of there there? I mean, you told lies already I did. I did

and and and it came from me. Uh, I wanted to be believed that I was at the scene, and didn't me saying well, this was a lesser role, right, You're like like, yeah, because I couldn't say that I held could I say? Did it? Had you even grabbed a woman's breast. By this point in your life, maybe maybe it's not a woman a girl. So yeah, so you made this up, right, just to add a little yeah, because I couldn't. Couldn't already said Kevin rape and I already said Steve hit it with the brick, and I

already said Anton held her. And you you know, I think a lot of people don't realize that once you say that, you're just as guilty as everybody else. Now it's you know, it's ah, exactly a part of the group. Even though you didn't play. You didn't implicate yourself in hitting her or raping her or strangling or doing anything like that. But now you're guilty as everybody. They got you know, you got me. So now what happens? And so then, um, he said, okay, you did good. You

don't you know? He tells me he wants me to go another priest and he wants me to tell the same story to this other detective. And um, and then that's what I do. So they picked me up. They take me to another preescinct. Well, I sit in the interrogation room with the TV cameras now waiting for you. Things like that Yeah, well we we we come out. When we go to the priestsinct, there's cameras there. He says, Look, just walk right in. Don't look at the cameras, just

keep walking right in. Um, but I still don't know what's going on because I'm trying to paint a picture for the eyes. Like, if you didn't live in New York back then, you can't imagine. This was really one of the most notorious crimes in New York history. And and that's a lot of history there, but it was I mean, it crystallized, like I said, everybody's fears of these predators roaming in the park, these scary minority kids

who were like super predators. They came from superretor predators, right. They are often the kinds of kids that are called super predators. No conscience, no empathy. We can talk about why they ended up that way, but first we have to bring them to heal. There is anger over this incident that seems to have only grown in the days

since the assault occurred. For a city that has been simmering for years over the issue of race, this vicious crime with young black defendants and a white female victim brings the issue to the boiling point, and these kids should be made examples for the rest of the country that if you do a crime, you're gonna get convicted. If you're guilty, you're either going to jail or you're gonna hang. So at this point, every cameras out everybody, but you still don't know. You still don't know. I

still don't know. So now you're like, okay, so you go through the cameras. So what's another priest? And and I mean, uh, detective Mike she In, right, Mike Sheen uh was part of hamasan North detective squad, went on years of being movies and and and be a reporter for several different news stations. And so are going to meet him. And we go in the room and he says, look, you know, you spoke the hard again already. And I said yeah. He says, so you know what we're gonna

do here, right, And I said yeah. He said, all right, we'll just tell me the same thing you're so hard again and I write it down and that time I win. So, you know, but because I'm selling it, that first statement with hard again maybe two and a half pages, right, this statement turns into like five right, because now you're embellishing the story. Yeah, because now he's pulling details and stuff and he's asking me stuff and I'm just making stuff up as we go along. Well, at this point

it is easy work for him. Yeah, he could have said he could have said that you, uh, that you could kidnapped the Lindbergh baby, and I could have been like, yeah, that was like yeah, yeah, that happened the same night. Yeah, yeah I did that. I was out there in California. Yeah. Yeah, helped his skelter and all that stuff. That was you It would have been like, yeah, can I go home now, right? And can I got a sandwich? At least give me a sandwich while I'm telling you the story, right, So

you would have confessed anything. I wouldn't confessed anything. And this is so at this point he's got you. Now you So let's just fast forward a little bit. Okay, So now you're all of this is done, right, and you're taking away to jail to spartfor detention center, right and so, and you have a sense it's it's dangerous definitely, and you're okay, So, now how long did it take to get to trial? Um? It took us about a

year almost obviously about a year and a half. So you're in jail for a year and a half way in for trial. Yeah, um, and were the other kids in the same jail with you? At this point everybody started to get bailed out, So so it was all of us that came in together and we got split up. And then what happened was everybody so Kevin got built out, You have got built out, Stephen Lopez got built out, and Trump mccraig got built out, and then I was the last one and m and then Corey was on

right the island. So you got bailed out. I didn't get bailed out. I mean the bell must have been high, No, it was. It was. It started about two or fifty thousand, and then as the months went on it got lower to one fifty than a hundred and fifty thousand, and then it finally went down to twenty five thousand. And this was the time when Al Shopton was raising money to get everybody out. Um, but I don't know what happened when the King and me getting out. The money

wasn't raised, Okay, so that's where it too. But um, so so then you got to trial, so they're gonna trial. Do you think did you think you're gonna be uh convicted? No, because at this point that DNA evidence is there nothing matches, right. You know, they took handprints, footprints, they took hair samples, they took blood samples, it took all of our clothes, um, and they sent it to the lab and nothing matches, right, So so you know, there's the hope. All right, there's

no physical evidence to prove that we did anything. And so, um, your lawyer had a lawyer by name of Peter Orrera from the Bronx. He was originally handling my father's divorce paperwork and then he became a lawyer. All right, so you got a divorce lawyer. I got a divorce lawyer fight for your life, to fight for my life, and you let's just think about that for a second. Divorce lawyers aren't even good at divorces, exactly what I mean. I mean, I don't know how many of you out

there have been through that, but I have. I don't want to denagram that by a lot of good divorce lawyers out there too, So I don't mean to, you know, but the fact is that's that's crazy, okay. So but he was confident, you felt, you know, you know, when I looked back at it, there was a lot of things that I felt that he could have did that

he didn't do. Um. He didn't fight enough, you know. UM. And when you tried together sepally, we were know it was me and Twon mccrai and used to Salam tried together. And it's a media circus. Yeah, oh definitely. By this time, you know, the articles are being written. Within the first two weeks, there four hundred articles written about us um dissecting outline and again you got Trump saying you guys should be executed, going out of his way. Then the

ad came out of it, took out an ad. Yeah, he put eighty five thou dollars on the ad and the major four made the newspapers calling for the death penalty. You better believe that I hate the people that took this girl and raped your brutally. You better believe it because he's a he's an expert on this stuff. Yeah right, yeah, okay, So he would have executed all five of you guys. I don't think he would have lost any sleep over,

I believe, you know. I mean even years later when we got exonerated, and we we went through the lawsuit. He said, you know, it was the biggest heys in New York City history, you know. Um, So okay, So so you you're now you're you're going through this trial, um, the circus, the whole thing. You've been in jail for at this point a year and a half, which is as a fifteen and a half year old kid, a

pretty big percentage of your life. So now you're there and you're still expecting that justice is going to be done. That's because you didn't do anything. And you've got DNA and I got DNA now, so so you've got all this forensic evidence and you're ready to go home. Now it's gonna be fixed. And then the verdict comes in. Then the verdict comes in. And the first trial, the first trial was chep murder, and they said not guilty, and so said okay, and then from then the rest

of the charges was all guilty. Let's talk about the experience and and and you know, the tension and just thinking about you in that courtroom and waiting for that verdict, and the stomach and the pain and the everything. I can't even That's why I do this work that I do because I can't imagine what it's like to go through this. Nobody can if you haven't been through it. I'm amazed you're here smiling, laughing. You know, got your Park Madison shirt. Yeah, yeah, fashion line Park Madison NYC.

I want to put it in a plug for that. So now you're now you're off the prison. Um, and then a crazy thing happens. Right, You're you're in prison for seven years you serve because you're a juvenile, was the most they can give you, right, and then you get out. Then I get out. Now you're out, and you're thinking, Okay, now I can start my life. Got an associate's degree while you're in prison, that's correct, right, So you're like, you're you're bettering yourself, doing the best

you could while you're in there. And then, um, which prison were you in? Um? They said they shipped me to go to Secure Center and I served five years there, and then um, they shipped me the downstair correction and then I got released from there. I mean you say so casually to five years there? Like five years imagine five years at the Holiday Inn would be torture, right, I mean, and this is not the holiday inn. This is we're talking violence, terrible food, loneliness, all the stuff, noise,

all the stuff that goes with it. Um. So you get out and now you find out that your prospects for getting employment are basically zero. Like I filled out several applications, nobody will hire me. Um, since you know, there's that question and says have you ever been convicted of crime? And you go yes, and UM, don't even get a call back. And then somebody said, well, just put we'll discuss upon interview. And then I said, all right, let's try that, and so we'll discuss the point interview.

And then they call you in and said, will you want to jail? Yeah? For what isn't it right? Oh? And you're registered sex you're registered sex offender. And then if somebody does say, okay, well you know what, you went to jail for rape. Things happen, what happened, And then you go to send you paut jogger case and okay, okay, well we're just closing up for the day. We'll get back there soon as we can. Yeah, because now you're a level three or level one, like you're like the

highest level of a sex offender. There is and so that's that's so there's nobody's hiring, nobody hiring, no nobody, So you still got to feed yourself somehow r Yeah. So what happens is that, um, at this point, I just for me because now it started to take a toll on me, right that I was in society. I had a nine o'clock curfew or seven o'clock curfew. Um, I couldn't get a job. You know. UM, these characteristics that are brown with me from prison, we're starting the

surface now, the pent up aggression. UM, not wanting to be around a lot of people in the room, not want to be around kids, UM, not want to be around a woman by myself, right, because people start to look at that, UM walking on the eight shows on a daily basis a copy you gotta be yeah yeah yeah. So so you got a lot of PTSD type syndrome symptoms and then and then so you got mixed up in drugs a little bit. So for me, what happened was that, you know, you know, these guys on the

corner to get a lot of money. I can see it every day. They're sitting there and they're doing what they don't have to do. It and and and and in my mind it was like, well, you know what, I don't have to fill out an application for that, right, I don't you have to go to the job interview. I could just come out there. By the way, you have to understand, I believe that drugs should be legal

and should be decriminalizing, tax and regulated. I've been working in Nashfield for twenty four years, even longer than this, so you're gonna find me very sympathetic on this particular subject, you know. Um. But that being said, so you got arrested. Yeah, oh yeah. So I got arrested with UH and I was charged with criminal possession with the attempt to distribute. And so you know, for me, you know, UH had a high bail, right, I had a parole hold, and

I knew I was guilty of this case. So it wasn't you know, it wasn't about sitting there fighting the system. It was just about give me something that I can handle because I knew I was guilty. And now you're an adult, and now you've been through the system, and there's nothing they can show you that you haven't already seen. That's correct. Not that's scary, Not that's scary. And so you know, they gave me a three and a half the seven year sentence and I said, all right, I'll

gladly take that because I was guilty. And this is where it gets really interesting. So you're back in prison, this time for something you did do. And a crazy thing happens because the guyed Mathias res who who who's serving the thirty three and uh third to life year sentence for murder and several rapes. Um. It's sitting in

the prison with Corey Wise. You know Corey Wise, one of my core defendants was at this point, he's in his thirty even a half year right, never never been released, you know, never, no programs, no nothing, He's just been in prison. And he sees Corey in the yard walking around, and he approaches Corey, right, and he doesn't tell Corey

that he's the person who committed the crime. But what he does is he engaged in the conversation with Corey because back in nineteen nine they was on the same house in unit right, and they had a fight over the TV. And so he comes to Corey and he says, hey, you remember me, Corey says, you know, the looks out of me says we had a fight in eighty nine over the TV, and Corey says, yeah, I remember you.

And from there he starts to tell Corey how his faith and religion has changed and how he's trying to be better and do better things in life, and they engaged in the dialogue, and based on that dialogue, he never told Corey he was the person who committed the jogger case. He didn't do that. He just spoke to Corey and and the conversation made him feel a certain type of way that he felt he had to do something.

And so that's where it started. Where he actually went and he talked to the prison chaplain and this is the first person that he told that, you know, somebody's in this prison for a crime that I know I did, and they've been here all this time and they're innocent. And then that's how the ball starts to roll. This's the first time you've hurt me. Shut up, because I'm just sitting here trying to like process this right. And this guy, like, he didn't just tell the story once.

He told it over and over and over even till it got to Albany and and and they had to send an investigate the d S office had to send somebody to go talk to him, and he told them the story and so, and he was the sole perpetrator. That he was the sole perpetrator. He was known as the East Side slasher. All his crimes he committed by himself. All his victims had the same kind of injuries. And he had been under investigation prior to the Central Park jography.

That's correct. He committed a rape in Central Park two days before the rape won the JAGA and they had some information that they were looking at him as a prospect. He had he had a scar on his chin. The lady who he raped in Central Park twins before I

did him as having a scar on the chin. So one of the detectives who was looking for him, they went to the hospital and they find out who was the last person that has stitches and they found the tears reds and so this information came to uh Lynda Festi, who was the head. This information came to Lynda Festi, who was the head of the sex crimes unit, around the same time that the DNA evidence from our case

came back. It was about six weeks and it came around the same time that it came back that said that, uh, there was no match, and so she had she had the information on her desk, but she chose not to either talk to us again. She chose not to entertain on alternative theory or on an alternative suspect. She just chose to go forward with this case. Yeah, it's it's what can you even say about that? I mean, it's like,

I'm so agree about it. And I wasn't the one who got victimized here, um, and there's a lot of victims here, right, the woman who didn't get justice, the society who wasn't protected from this guy who truly is evil, uh, and then the five of you guys, and then your

whole families. Right. I mean that's the thing, Like, I think people need to understand that when we lock up the wrong guy, by definition, we stopped looking for the right guy, that guy is then free to go out and commit more terrible acts against innocent people, to commit a murder and I think four additional raps, right, So

a murder at four rapes, that's the scorecard. If Fairstein would have done her job, which was right in front of her, it wasn't tricky, right, It wasn't like this one came with instructions, right, and all she had to do was look at it and say, yes, I'm going to do my job, my sacred duty to protect the public and the citizens of which you are one, and I'm going to investigate the obvious lead that is going to lead me to the right rapist in this case

and and almost killer. And she didn't do it because it was inconvenient in some way, and she probably liked all the press she was getting them guessing and uh and as a result, Uh, it's really I can't imagine how those people must feel that we're victims of Reis, knowing that he could have been and should have been off the street and they and their families never would have had that. I can't imagine if it was my daughter, or my sister, or my mother or somebody else who

he victimized. I don't know, I can't. The amount of anger is really, uh, it's hard to even a put it into words. Yeah, there's a there's a report. There's a report that's that's done by the d a's office called to Nancy Ryan Report. It's about fifty two pages long, and it tells you and why we're innocent. All the

evidence and the reinvestigation as to how we're innocent. Ray has went on to even solve unsolved crimes because they because they never aboty to look into things other even though he even though it was in a neat pattern, like I said, this one was with it. This one came with instructions. So now so okay, so now we as we're nearing the end of this uh this show.

So by some miracle, he ends up in the prison with with Corey and he has this moment of h he has this awakening and then he has this moment of feeling guilty, which is a bad word in this particular case. Um, but uh and then he uh he spells the beings and now you're in prison and you get the word, how's this happen? You get the word that you've been exonerating. Well, you know what happened was they bring me back down and they questioned me, right,

they questioned me be us. It's not that simple for them to just let us go to them. Ray as is the sixth man right to them. We knew each other, We was in cohersive with each other, and so they have to try to find a connection and so they give me all these photos to see if I know who he is. But I don't know who he is, so I never picked him out of a photo. And so it's a year long investigation by the d a's

office before they actually um exonerators. Well yeah, so they yeah, so they just had to to to string it out even a little bit longer. But then you do get get get the word that I'm exonerated. My dad. I'm talking to my father on the phone and he says, you know, I said, you know, they keep questioning about the old case. And he's like, yeah, because I got

something to tell you. And I go what. And he says, because he's been watching the news and it's all over the news and he sees it and this time he's in touch with the lawyers and he goes, you know, they found a guy who did it. And and I'm like what and he says, yeah, they found them. You get come home. And I'm like, get the funk out of here. Like I was so institutionalized that I didn't even believe him. I hung up the phone on him and I said, you know what, I don't even want

to talk to you no more. You just roared my day and I hung up the phone on him, right. And it wasn't until I actually got the call from my attorneys that yeah, you're gonna be exonerated. Well yeah, and then how long was it before you got home? Um? We got exonerated December five? And then I was home. My lawyer said I'll get you home before Christmas, and I was like, yeah, whatever, and he got me home

December twenty second. And when you when you did finally get that news that you were exonerated, and when you actually believed it, Yeah, what happened? Did you collapse? Did you like started crying? Laughing? I cried. I cried when I found out about Reds and but I was still in disbelief. And it wasn't until I actually got until

I got released. They sent me to Queensboro and then they released me from there, and then for the first time I actually got to see the magnitude of how much cameras and lights, and because I never really been in that situation, that was the first time for me. So it was really overwhelming, Like it was like, wow, you know, well and now let's just talk for a minute about what life is like now I know you're doing a lot of public speaking raising awareness. Definitely. Um,

I know you. Uh, every everyone knows that there was a settlement, but you, guys, I don't think you could ever pay enough for what you've been through. But um, but you're good now, right Uh and um, you got some money in the bank. Definitely. Um, I see you've got good style, right, you got your you got your he's he can't see it on the radio, but he's looking good and uh it got a great smile and so uh and now now you have a family. Yes, my daughter is twelve years old. I've been married now

two years. Yeah. So I'm trying to put the pieces together back slowly, but surely sounds like you're doing the hell of the job. And I'll tell you something, you know, just just being with you and hearing that story, and and knowing that you've come through this, uh with an incredible spirit and with an incredible attitude. Uh. It's it's really it's an inspiration to so many people. I don't

think you even know. And now I'm hoping that with this Wrong Flviction podcast will reach a lot more people, many of whom will have heard parts of your story or seeing the movie again in the central part five incredible movie you get a chance to see it, um and uh and I'm hoping that again that this will help to make a difference in the lives of some

other people. And uh, you know, I really just appreciate you coming in and sharing your story and your strength and and hope and and uh and and wisdom and uh. You know, as a New Yorker, I want to apologize to you from all of us that you ever had to go through this um and uh. Having lived through it, I couldn't have known, you know, it was so one

side of the press. I have no idea. And now to be sitting here with you now, it's really it's kind of a thrill for me to be honest and uh and and yeah, I'm I'm like I said, I just really want to thank you for being here on the show. But as thank you for having me, don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project, and I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very important cause and helping to

prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wardis. The music in the show is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Rawnful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrangful Conviction podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Sick the company number one