#094 Jason Flom with Messiah Johnson

This call is from a correction facility, and it's subject to monitoring and recording.

Impact ere and it hasn't been easy.

One hundred years. That's man.

I'm a kid.

I didn't do anything, you know, and uh, you know that was Ah, that was real painful, man, No, because my life was discarded as if you know, like I was a piece of trash or something, you know, one hundred years and I had dreams and I wanted to do things I wouldn't.

Commit in crimes. You know.

I was a very good young man.

That is what happens in so many cases. The cops have a hunch because they're so smart at the scene, they have a hunch, and once they act on that hunch, they sort of developed tunnel vision and they take off marching in the wrong direction. And that happens in so many of these wrongful convictions.

They open it to cell door and I'll walk downstairs.

And I actually walked downstairs to be outside. It felt very strange to be, like I said, to be walking without those shackles on my feet. I thought it was a dream. But then again it wasn't a dream.

This is wrong for conviction. Welcome back to wrong for conviction. My guest this week is Messiah Johnson. And Messiah, first of all, welcome to the show.

Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure being here.

So Messiah, this case and let's go back. It's a Virginia case.

It is.

You came from Norfolk.

Yes, and this goes back to late nineties, right, Yes, it goes back.

To December nineteenth, nineteen ninety seven. The crime actually happened on December fifth, nineteen ninety seven.

The nineteenth was the day of my rest.

This was an arm robbery of a hair salon in Norfolk in which nobody was hurt. That doesn't make it right, Don't get me wrong. I'm not in favor of armed robberies by any stretch of the imagination. But nonetheless, this is a robbery that you had nothing to do with. You had alibis, there was no physical evidence connecting you to it. And first of all, set the table for us here. How old were you at the time, what were you doing, and how was your life.

I was twenty four years old at the time.

I was working for a government funded program.

It was a letterbatement program.

I happened to be one of the people who were educated in the field very early on.

So you were helping to get lead out of housing.

Housing and I got a biochemical certificate from ODU in this field, and at the time of my arrest, I was actually writing a proposal to hud Homes for like five million dollars to kind of extend our licenses to other states and kind of setting myself up for.

My career in this field.

And then of course this happened and it kind of just obliviated everything that I had planned for my life.

I'm sitting here with you now. We had dinner last night.

Here you are in a blue suit, you know, with a tie and looking the part of somebody who would be doing exactly what you described like doing actually very good work helping people. And you know, if people want to go to my Instagram, it's at it's Jason Fomm you'll see pictures that I posted with Messiah and you'll see what I mean. You know, you look like an upstanding citizen like anybody else. And yet if you've been

But okay, let's go back to it.

So this robbery takes place, yes, and they're out obviously looking for suspects. And how did it end up that you even got on the radar.

That's a good question, because I didn't really understand it until I actually went to trial in August the following year. I try to take you back to the day I was arrested on the nineteenth of December. It really was a typical day in the life of any young man my age from where I'm from. A couple of friends hanging out. It was on a Friday, early in the day. I had you made arrangements to see a friend of mine, a lady friend of mine, later on in the night.

While I was in the club. It was a little bit too noisy. She couldn't hear me.

So I said, look, I'm gonna step outside across the street and make this phone call so you can hear me, you know, just to let her know I was on my way. And then he and I were gonna part ways. And so as I was walking out of the club, it was several officers coming in and the phone booth was directly across the street.

We walked across the street. I didn't see any.

Cops, so they must have been hiding around the building and the dark or something like that, because, you know, as soon as I picked up the phone, you know, everything about my life kind of changed in an instance, because all I could hear was screeching tires, flashing lights and sirens, and in that moment.

It was difficult the process was what was happening.

But from behind the lights, you know, before my eyes really had a chance to adjust, you could really hear the demands of put your hands up, and so you don't really have time to process that. So I just complied, not really knowing what was going on, and I did so because you know, once my eyes were able to adjudge.

It was three or four guns in my face.

I remained calm because I didn't want to do anything that would cause me to be possibly shit anything like that. And so we were asked to put our hands up, which we did, and we were placed in handcuffs, this friend, me and one other friend. And you know, I didn't realize at the time, only after studying the law that this is where the miscourage of justice began to make manifest against me, because I was sat down on the curve with handcuffs on, in between two police cars and

Of the club.

He was with them. Oh, and so once they put us in handcuffs, he told the police that, you know, well, one of the other victims that I work with is at his shop and so instead of the police just going back to get him to do a show up, he actually took the person who initially identified me back there with him and allowed them to ride in the car together. As they were riding in the car together, it's easy for him to say that he is right there, right, so.

They could share the information set already seen you, Yeah, and we've seen this time and again. Of course, that's going to increase exponentially the percentage of people who are going to identify that suspect. We know from research, even when somebody sees a person in the defendant's box, just a normal person off the street who's now adjure that eighty percent of people have a natural proclivity to think that that person must be guilty, because otherwise what would they.

Be doing there.

But then when you take that, and then you add to it someone who's been a victim and a person in handcuffs on the street with the police, it's almost like a fata complete Like it would be strange for them not to identify you. They would have to be like, I don't know, it have to be something bizarrely, you'd have to be the wrong race or something. Anyway, there's a lot of factors that go to that.

So it at this.

Point did you realize how dire the situation was or did you feel like they just made a mistake and I'm going to go home after this gets sorted out.

No.

Prior to the show up, you know, there was a moment where one of the officers, I was like, yeah, I'm a little confused, officer, what is this about? And he was cordial, Well, you're a suspect and of crime. What crime could that have been? We've been here the majority of the night, the day and night, so what are you talking about? And he was like, well, I let the detectives share that with you when you go downtown. So it was already they had already made a decision.

So now they take you downtown, and they brought your friends. What was your friend's name? His name was Mondelle, And so you and Mondel both got taken downtown. We did interrogate it separately as soon, of.

Course, you know it's the whole you know, we're going to put him in this very cold cell. And those of us who have been locked up, you always know, you always put in a very ice cold cell and it's so cold that you're in the fetal position just.

To keep warm.

And so I've studied a lot of cases, and I can always see why people really just want to just get away from the police station and they just kind of just say, you know, I did it just to get away from the circumstances because of the process. It's very harsh on a person when you're in that very cold sale and then they bring you out and.

They held you in this freezing cell for how long?

A few hours?

Wow? Then you're going to be interrogated. Yes, but you never confessed.

I didn't have any knowledge of what they were talking about.

Right, But we know that a lot of people do confess in those circumstances, as you just said, just to go home, even if.

They don't know what they're talking about. Yes, yes, but you did not know.

They bought me out after that and began the good cop, bad cop thing. And the first thing I said was, look, before you ask me any questions, I want to make a phone call to an attorney. A practitioner of Islam and a righteous and I'm civilized. So whatever you accuse me of, you know you have the wrong person. I don't know anything about a robbery or any other crime, and so I didn't know it was dire until, you know, he got very upset. I think the fact that he

I was, you know, concerned. Then I said, what do you mean.

He said, yeah, we're gonna be typing up about fifty felonies against you. And in the state of Virginia, that's one of the states that can stack charges. So for every individual robbery, I got an abduction charge, a firearm for deduction, and a firearm for the robbery. So I ended up with forty three felonies. Most of them current life sentences.

Based on the one crime that they suspected you of doing exactly. I don't even know what to say about that I turned one of the forty three. That math is just as fuzzy as.

It could be. So how long were you interrogated for?

You know, the records show that I was brought out to be interrogated and not said that I didn't know anything, and then I was taken right back to my cell, which is not the truth. You know, you would have to look at the time frame. You know, from the time I was down at the police operation Center until the time I was actually taken to the jail, which was about seven to eight hours, and so I was taken out of that cell on three different occasions to the interrogation room.

Did you get your phone call?

I never got the phone call.

And actually, if you look at my pre trial records, it will tell you that Messiah requests a phone call and we tell him a phone call is not one of his rights. But he left out the fact that I requested a phone call to talk to an attorney.

So I'm guessing that you probably should have said I want an attorney and then they stop questioning you. Right, if you say I want to call an attorney, that's not the same saying I want an attorney present.

They did stop questioning me, and once I requested that, they stopped questioning me and took me back to the cell of the final time.

And then you were held for almost a year before your trial, Is that right?

Just about nine months exactly. And I went to my first trial in August.

And tell me about that. Because you didn't have a quarter pointed attorney.

I did initially, which was the foundation of the injustice. Once I got into the courtroom, I had an attorney by the name of Andrew Sebbak. And during preliminary hearing in the cells, it's verly packed. Everybody's waiting to go for their hearing, and so several lawyers are coming talking. He comes in to speak to me, and you know, the first thing he says was, my name is Andrew Sabbak, so forth and so on. He said, now, look, what can you tell me about this crime, which was perplexing

Do with this.

Okay.

He leaves, comes back.

And it's as if he didn't hear anything I said. You know again, he was asking me. He said, well, when you and your friend committed this crime, and then my antennas went up immediately, what are you talking about? I just told you I didn't have anything to do with this crime. And so this man actually went into this courtroom without a stenographer, which was one of my first requests because I figured that something was wrong. And when I walked into the courtroom, there was no sonographer.

To keep it down.

We're about to courts givery be in sessions. So I said, okay. He separated the witnesses. These witnesses described two different people. One said this guy had on camouflage from head to toe. Once said he had on a blue jacket. It was the kind of evidence that you simply just get up and say you're on are based on the evidence, asked for the charge to be dismissed. But at the end of everything, you know, simply said that's all I have, Yanna.

The courtroom was dumbfounded.

The judge had to look over top of his glass and say that's it. And he said, oh, other than the fact that we asked for a bond.

Obviously, now you're extremely knowledgeable about the law, but at the time you weren't.

I'm assuming right.

No, I wasn't knowledgeable the law. But you know, when you're being wrong?

What was your reaction? Did you like elbow im like yo?

I actually did, And the deputy had to step in again and say, look, you have to relax, like I'm saying to him, what are you doing?

Man?

What happened?

And so I didn't want to put up a fuss in the courtroom. I knew that the judge knew that something was wrong, but I made a phone call to him when I got back to the jail.

We got on the phone, I said, look, what did you do to me in courtroom today? Man?

You didn't have a sonographer? I said, are you working with the Commonwealth or something, and you know, he said, there's other people that feel like you may have committed this crime. And so my suggestion to you is you don't want me on your case, I would suggest you get me off. And that basically told me that he was somehow working and with the police department or the

Wow.

And so when I went to court to get him off for my case, the judge gave me a five minute speeches in the transcripts about how this is a good attorney, and I said, you're honest. He told me he was working with the Commonwealth in so many words, and then he asked the attorney like, do you what do you say to this man who's accusing you of working with the comonwealth. He said, well, am I getting a check from the Commonwealth, And the judge that that's

But at this point this was still part of the initial phase, or had you already been convicted.

No, this was preliminary hearing.

So okay.

So now we're dealing with an attorney who is mentally impaired. Yes, doesn't have a stenographer in the courtroom, which alone should be impossible. I mean, that can't happen. And then you have a judge who's looking over his glasses at him and going on really, dude, like really, And then they have been working with the commonwealth against your best interest.

You know.

My family and now decided that we didn't have a lot of money. We decided that we would get an attorney. We considered a seasoned attorney who had a name for himself and who had been, you know, practicing.

Law for some time.

And then what happened.

We went into court on August nineteenth, nineteen ninety eight, Now, initially, before we even went in, several people who were victims said, look, I can't identify anybody. These guys had on a mask, they were covered up completely. There's no way I can come in here and identify anybody. And so for every person that came in and it said that those charges

What was the play?

Three years?

Three years? You know.

Once I didn't take that plea deal, this became about malicious prosecution, and she knew it was really no evidence, you know, reliable evidence, which we found out later on. I'm locked up because I wear glasses.

Because of the one of the robbers had glasses on.

That's it, yeah, because I mean, how can you possibly have my witness identification when you mean it's hard enough in this situation, a violent, chaotic situation to identify anybody if they don't have a mask but wear a mask, Come on, I mean that's crazy. But now you've refused the plea deal. Now they're out for blood because you had the audacity to reject the plea deal for crimeun and commits exactly, So it goes to trial. And how did it end up going so wrong?

I testified my witness testified my alibi witnesses.

There were no contradictions.

And it's hard to explain my lawyer, you know, it was really no pretrial investigation by him where I expected for him to give me one hundred percent. It was as if I was only getting like ninety percent from him, just enough for him to be able to say to the ball I did my job.

But when you look at it.

More closely, you understand that there were a lot of things that he didn't do that he could have done. I know that by the time the evidence, this was what really stood out to my attorneys. By the time they had heard two days a trial, when they were time to go in and make a decision, a question came out from the jury. That question was who positively identified Massiah went and where this was? After all the

It's not good. They found you guilty, and I was I was stunned. I couldn't believe it. Man, it was.

I don't know, it's hard to explain. It's sort of a haze. And as I was sitting there, you know, at the jury began reading off how much time for each charge that I was convicted of, and they were saying, you know, seven seven, five, five five, And it was a moment where my attorney looked at me.

And said, well, how much is that?

And I was just like, man, you have the penning paper, you're not adding this up. I after the first five years, you know, I didn't hear anything else.

And so how many charges were you convicted of?

Twenty six charges?

Twenty six charges for allegedly walking into a beauty salon, holding up the place, and not even whoever it was that did this didn't actually hurt anybody, right, No, I mean it's a violent crime because there was a weapon involved, so act you know, legally speaking, it's a violent crime. But I do think there's an important distinction when no one was hurt. Obviously, it's traumatic for the victims in this case to have gone through this, and there's I

But here you have a crime.

In which nobody was hurt and forgetting the fact that for a second that you were innocent. So they convicted you on twenty six counts, but they ended up sentencing you when they edded up the fives and the sevens and everything else.

One hundred and thirty two years, one hundred and thirty two years.

So and in Virginia, for those who don't know, you know, and you know, nineteen ninety five, it took away the ability to have parole available to you. In addition to that in that statue, there's an additional statute that says you also have to serve eighty five percent of your time. So what I received was equivalent to the deathcinis. Well, yeah, to live the rest of your life in prison and then die there.

Yeah, they abolished parl in nineteen ninety five in Virginia, which is incomprehensible to me. But the idea that they sentenced you to life in prison.

After offering you three years.

Also, like, how was there even a universe in which you could say, well, as a society, we were good with you doing three years for this, but because you exercised your constitutional right to a trial, you get one hundred and thirty two years.

Yeah.

It was devastating for me and my family. And I can tell you that it was a moment where I was at the jail after I happened sentenced, and my oldest daughter, who was about seven at the time, she came to see me, and you know, she's an intelligent young lady, and she asked me, she said, Dad, oh, do you really have one hundred and thirty two years or do in prison? And I said yes, And you know, her response was, you can't even live that one. There was a moment, you know, which was really important to

And so.

After that, I just knew it was time for me to get back to business of fighting for my freedom. When you get in prison, when you really understand that they've decided that they want to take your life.

Because everything about my life changed. The way I walk, talk, you.

Know, everything, the movements, how long got that be on the phone? Who I can call, what kind of foods to eat, what kind of medical care? Everything changed completely, and so I decided that I didn't want that to be my life. And so what I did was I looked at the contrast to myself in prison, and the contrast is most of us have who are doing time with that has that amount, have fallen into despair and given up because Virginia has made it extremely difficult for

Definitely. I speak about this all the time.

That Bill Clinton acted basically is telling you that once your direct appeal is over where you have representation, that you are required to file a HAB's corpus within a year. So you're expected a law student. How long does it take that person to graduate? Eight years well, including college yees seven or whatever. You're required to have that knowledge and represent yourself pro se with inadequate information and materials.

And if you don't, then after that.

Year, you judicially bought from being able to present legitimate claims your custuals vice being vilid.

It's just ridiculous.

The idea that we would want to keep anybody in prison one day after we find out that they're innocent, regardless of whatever procedural you know, it's nuts, right, And the fact that we want to deny somebody like yourself the opportunity to present newly discovered evidence is completely illogical too.

The free world.

So it's really a shame that that law has prevented so many other people from getting out that deserve to get out.

I will say this.

I know I hear the terminology mass incarceration quite often, but with this law, and especially with the laws in the state of Virginia, you know, this is more along the lines of judicial genocide. This is not mass incarceration. You're talking about taking away generations of individuals and never giving them a second chance back out of society. And it's targeted with disenfranchised, mainly blacks and Latinos.

Yeah, they make it easy to get in and really hard to get out, I mean almost impossible.

Unfortunately, I began to study the law. You know, I did a lot of research on my own case, and you know, when I come through the transcripts just to see how many because I could remember all these contradictions, I ended up with nine pages of conflicting testimony was just mind blowing to me. It was one of the things I presented to the Innocent Project and to other organizations.

And we're talking about the University of Virginia in It's this project to do incredible work they do. Yeah, and I've been down there and I know the people there, and I encourage anyone listening to support them. You can just google University of Virginia in It's Project. It's a great organization to hear more about that.

One of the people that I had a pleasure of speaking to was did your in Right? And I'm smiling now because I think about the first time I met Deddre in Right, and she and I had a conversation and even though we were having a conversation about my case, it was a personal conversation too, about character and family and you know, just my how much loss I had endured and.

So how many years have you been there by this.

Point fourteen fifteen years?

And Deirdre is the director right of this.

She is director of the Innocent Project at UVA School of Law and runs the pro bono clinic.

So for you, that's when things started to take a turn in the right direction.

It did.

She understood immediately once I presented those things to her, and she's impeccable in her investigation skills. She knew exactly how she wanted to, you know, go about getting the necessary information. Her and her students went out. They utilized the Freedom Information Act and found out that this guy had committed all these robbers around the same time that I was arrested. And this is what led them to

Yeah, and it's amazing.

It's really dramatic because they went to see him and they were only given twenty five minutes to talk to him.

That's correct.

And in those twenty five minutes they had to somehow other earn his trust and get him to confess to a crime that you were in prison for.

And they did.

And then from there we began to build a case, not forward. We started from the back. Once we got the confession in Virginia, you know, you don't take it directly to the commonwealth because then they're going to go to all the witnesses involved. Everybody wants to say, look, this guy is trying to say that he didn't have anything to do with it. They're going to get out

But he was still on the bench. I think he's still present now.

Because of Virginia law after that year, you're not allowed to file a habeas corpus second and success of Hay's corpus. So he denied us, and so mcculloff was in office at the time, right And.

This gets a really interesting part of the story too, because Governor mccauliffe, who I've become very friendly with. To his credit, he had this sense of outrage when I was talking to him about these crazy sentences that Virginia was handing out to people. You know, we talked about Travion Blount, and we talked about Letting Singleton, and we talked about some of these other people that were doing these literally like mind blowing sentences, and you were certainly

So to me, he was very forward thinking governor, and he had made public comments about how far behind gen you was compared to other states in the criminal justice system. And so we as a whole thought that it was best for us to put together a petition for clemency while he was in office, before he left, and so we did that.

And that's basically like buying a lottery t it is. It is.

I say that all the time.

It is very difficult because they usually deal with those things after you've exhausted all your remedies. And because we had this newly discovered evidence, we were able to still go to the federal courts, which we're getting ready to do now because we're still pending. And so on the day that he was leaving, on the day before, we were asking, you know, has he ruled on the side his petition yet, and he's like, no, but he's getting to it and he'll get to it before he leaves.

And you know, Diezer was.

Calling periodically every hour. You know, I think we're going to get it. We're not sure yet. You know, I tried to call this person. They said, yeah, they're looking at it right now. So the day of I think, no more than an hour after he was supposed to be leaving office, we get the call, you know, and they said, you've been granted a conditional pardon with the absolute aspect of the part and still pending. You know, the outcome of the investigation. That was a wonderful feeling.

Who called it recalled me right.

We were just related. We were overjoyed, you said.

We Deirdre and the whole team, everybody, you know, the jigu and right and Jennifer Gibvens who was another attorney there, also a director. They had been coming to the prison regularly and calling for me. They assisted me and aided me in ways, you know. And anybody who who's represented by them will tell you they go above and beyond with their representation and helping you not only with the legal aspect, but personal things that you be going through in prison.

It's rare you see somebody who does that, you know.

With all the way pro say throughout you know, but this was a collective effort of all of us.

What was the reaction in the prison when you got this news? Were people wow, jealous? Were they happy? What was the reaction of the other char The majority.

Of people who were happy because they understood my struggle.

They saw me working.

There's two different types of people in prison, those who working to get out on those who's just waiting for something to happen. And while I was in prison, I helped a lot of people along the way. Digit and Writing Jennifer Gills will tell you, I've read people's cases.

I've read multiple cases.

I've done research myself and helped them with their cases, file emotions for them.

But I've also introduced them.

To Digit and Right and Jennifer Givens and so those people and a lot of people I've made quite a few friends you can imagine after twenty years, you make some friends.

They were just delated.

How long did it take you to get out after the call?

They wanted to make you do five months? I did four from January to April, right, because they have that re entry the reentry program. But I stayed on top of the people every day, like, look, you gotta let me get this program.

Man.

Everything is contingent on me getting out as me complete these programs. So they put me to the top of the list.

And you know, so you had one hundred and twelve years left to go, and now it turns to four months.

How did those four months go by? Faster? Slow?

It went by the same for me. I put myself in that kind of mind frame that I don't really believe until it actually happens. You know, even though I got the pardon with a discretionary release date, you still don't believe it till it actually happens. Anybody, I think everybody will tell you this. Until you actually cross that threshold, you just don't believe it.

Man.

And I've seen the video of you walking out of prison into the arms of your family and the attorneys from the Virginia Insis Project it's a very powerful moving thing to see going back to prison for a second sometimes like to ask what was the best and the worst thing to happen. Was there a moment, even in the darkest of times, when there was like a ray.

Of light or hope mentally and emotionally, you know, there's valleys and peaks. You know, you're trying to make sense of everything that's happening to you. You know, you want to stay within the realm of reality, but that reality maybe something that's for the rest of your life. And so for me, there was some few dark moments and

So I developed a very profound perspective.

About life that has allowed me to know my purpose, and within that purpose, it's really about helping others. And so at some point I want to be able to develop a nonprofit which i've you know, really developed, and it's called the Lion Initiative Liberating Individuals Oppression Now and it will have several programs, and they want about educating the community about laws and how they can affect change through their legislators, people who are supposed to represent them.

Now, I'm glad you brought that up, because that is truly what the Virginia Innos's project did. In your case, they wasn't really reinvestigated the case. It was never investigated.

Properly in the first place, exactly.

And you know, if we had a fair or system, we would have defense attorneys, even public defenders, who were given enough time to work on each individual case that they could at least mount some sort of effective investigation. Obviously, they're not going to be able to do, you know what a private attorney who is working on just a few cases can do, because.

They're always going to be overwork.

But we need to reduce that burden because some of these guys are working on one hundred cases at the time, and there's just no way even the best attorney in that situation can't possibly do the most effective job for their client.

And in your case, it was literally your life that was hanging in the balance.

And so forgetting the fact that you had this you know, half crazy and competent guy in the first place, I mean, you.

Had really hit the jackpot of me.

Between the mistake and eye witnesses and the official misconduct and effective assistance of council to show up the I mean everything, it's really it's the reverse jackpot. I mean, everything that could have gone wrong went wrong, and we know what the end result was, and the end result of it in some man in prison for twenty years, and even then, it's a mereracle that you're here now and still fighting, which is great, and I want to talk about that too, because you are fighting your case.

That it was a trade that was available at substage to state prison communication. Graphic loss and design is the re entry process. And so I finally made it into the class and became proficient, but I'm still a feeling and so every time I go to fill out applications, so forth and so on.

You gotta check the box.

You check the box.

But if people want to, if they need somebody to do some design work for them or something like that, whether they're in Virginia or even something you could do on the web, how could they reach out to you?

My Gmail is los Sean three sixty s l O R D s h I n E.

It's l O R D s h I n E three sixty at gmail dot com.

That's correct. I'm on Facebook, Instagram.

What's your Instagram?

Oh, Messiah Alidah, So.

It's Messiah Emmy s s I A H.

A L A D A R L A space and then Johnson.

Okay, Messiah, it's easy, I think once you type in Messiah and then A A L A D A R and then underscore Johnson. So, Messiah, I want to, of course thank you for coming and being here and compare this insane story. And I think a lot of people are going to take something out of it that's going to be meaningful to them, not least to which is your spirit, which remains, you know, just so positive and

Yes, I couldn't be here today without all the love and support that I received from my family and friends. It was an arduous journey and it still is because I'm still fighting for exoneration. I need to be vindicated for all the stuff that you know I've been through. But they have truly been an inspiration to me, and I just couldn't have done it without them and all

They are inspiring.

Even though I've gone through my own set of circumstances, those podcasts are still inspiring to me. For me to continue fighting for myself from others.

That means a lot.

I mean, no you're You're genuine.

I met you a few months back, and I always want to know if somebody is genuine, you know, especially if you haven't gone through these set of circumstances. And you are the real deal man, And I appreciate everything that you're doing because you could be doing so many other things, but to have somebody at some point inspire you and then for you to take on this cause. Man, it's truly important man, for society. And I'm with you, man, well, thank you man.

That means a lot.

And now after I collect myself, I want to honor our tradition here at Wrongful Conviction, and our listeners know this is the part of the show where I get to uh to basically sign off. But before I do that, and what I mean by that, I don't mean sign off, So don't don't true now because it's the best part of the show. But I want to, of course thank you again Messiah Johnson for coming in and sharing your story with us. I want to apologize to you for

So I get to.

Turn the microphone, my microphone off and leave yours on for any closing thoughts that you have.

I don't know if you know Melvin Van Peebles, Mario van People's father, well, he said he had a friend that had three partners. They all went out to a club one day and all three of them got locked up. Two of them got out on bail, went home. His friend got out the next day, and by the time he got there, his friends had split up his property in his house as if he was never coming back. And he said, this is basically the mentality of society about prisoners. And so you have to know that that

You're not involved.

I hope that me coming here today, like I said, inspires others to continue fighting for themselves and others. It is truly a necessity that we begin to educate ourselves. So my plea to everybody is begin educating yourself, begin getting behind these causes of criminal justice. Reform so we can bring about a true balance back in society.

Thank you for listening.

This has been an amazing experience for me and I hope for you too. We'll see you next week. I'm wrong for Conviction. Don't forget to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you get your podcasts.

It really helps.

And I'm a proud donor to the Enesis Project, and I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocentsproject dot org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wortis. The music in the show is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on