#089 Jason Flom with Darnell Phillips

hold him back. Just this year he started his dream business, a mobile auto detailing business called Redemption Auto Detailing LLC. Redemption Auto Detailing gett he's a minister. It's incredible. When I heard that name, I almost fall on the floor. Darnell is a pro at taking people beat up looking cars and making them look like brand new. Therefore Redemption Auto Detailing, and he has a he has a sort of a joy about the way he goes about life, but also just the way that he approaches his job.

And as a result of business is growing and flourishing. It's in Virginia. Look him up. His Instagram is at darn Phil nineteen. That's d A R and P H I L nine the number nineteen. Follow Darnell and you will be inspired because he is hitting it out of the park. He got engaged to a wonderful woman. What can you say about a guy who served almost three decades in prison of a hundred and something in your

sentence for a crime everybody knew he didn't commit. That victim came forward, everybody came forward, and yet spent not a minute of time feeling sorry for himself and is living his best life. Darnell, if you're listening, you have all my respect and for all you wrongful conviction listeners, I'm super excited for you to hear this episode. This call is from a correction facility and it's subject to monitoring and recording exactly five days even a hundred years.

That's man, I'm a kid. I didn't do anything, you know, and uh, you know that was that was real painful, man, No, because my life was discarded as if you know, like I was a piece of trash or something, you know, a hundred years and I had dreams and I wanted to do things I wouldn't committing crimes. You know, that was a very good y'all man. That is what happened

to so many cases. The cops have a hunch, because are so smart at the scene, they have a hunch, and once they act on that hunch, they sort of developed tunnel vision and they take off marching in the wrong direction. And it happens in so many of these wrongful convictions. Opening the cell door and I walk downstairs. And I actually walked down stairs to be outside. It felt very strange m to be, like I said, to be walking without no shakos on my feet. I thought

I was a dream. But then again, it wasn't a dream. This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam that's me. I'm your host, and today we have Darnell Phillips, wrongfully in prison for twenty eight years and only released back on September. Welcome, Glad you're here. I always say I'm sorry you're here, but I'm happy you're here. And with him, Lisa speises here and she

runs Virginians for Judicial Reform. And Lisa and I have been working closely together for a while now on some Virginia cases. So I'm glad you're here. As well. Thanks for having me. M So, Darnell, your case is um troubling in so many ways. The fact that you were ever prosecuted for this case doesn't make any sense. And let's go back. I mean, this is a really brutal case. It's a violent rape of a ten year old girl, white girl, and Darnell is a larger than life black mail.

And uh, we know the cross racial identifications are incredibly unreliable. But let's not even go there yet. Um, how did this ever come to pass in the first place? You didn't match the description. There's so much misconduct and so many mistakes both I think deliberate and accidental in your case. But but let's go back to where did this happen? How did this happen? How did you first get wrapped up in it at all? In Virginia Beach in August night, saying ninety, I was in the process of trying to

do something like you do with music. You know, I was a young guy. You know, you want to make money, you want to try to you know, go after your dreams. Just so happened to met a young man from New York at the gym where he used to box at and so I saw that he was interested in music. When I said, well, you know what, I have another friend who goes to the the Norful State, the DJ. We can get together, maybe we can get this demo. We wanted to try to do it for this rapping called

Public Enemy, and you know, in the early nineties. And so one of the days that I was over Michael's house, it was raining outside. When the rain begin to settle down, we went back outside. We were laughing, just doing things, smoking a cigar, just talking futuristic things. You know. Yeah, man, I would love to, you know, be a music producer. And you know, he's telling like, y'all love to wrap.

And so when we got I'm not even ten steps outside of his house, there was a guy walking by and he asked, because I have a light, gave my light and everything. So we went walking around the corner. Just so happened police they rolled up. And when they rolled up, we were like, well, what's going on, officer? He said, well, young girl had just been ready. Like whoa, we said, somebody just walked by us. We told him. They went that way back towards a place called Carper Apartments.

It was a military housing unit and so he said, well, will you be around because in case we need to talk to you. He said, was sure, but we didn't say anything. About fifteen minutes later, also came back through. He spoke with us. I was eight teen, Michael sixteen. Spoke with Michael about you know, where had he been and but Michael really didn't fit the description. So I was like, well, he's been with me, so there's nowhere in the world he could have been doing a type

of crime. I had an all brown and black. They were looking for a man that had great shorts on white and green with the number forty two in the jersey. So you know, obviously I didn't fit the description. I wasn't the person's hight or anything. But nevertheless, they said, well, can you try this hat on? But I was like, well, I he wants to try a hat on or whatever? Right, I had a hat I get similar to the person who did the crime. It's like a Chicago Bulls hat.

So Michael put the hat on. They snapped a picture. Then they asked me willing. I said, yeah, sure, no problem, but they had on him. They snapped the picture h the auser. He drove me home that night that Friday, I was arrested. When I was arrested, they didn't tell me what I was arrested for. And it took some hours. Got down to the police station and spoke to a few detectives, you know, for like four hours probably. Then there was another detective came in, you know, unlike the

other ones. And I grew up around police officers, you know, they were kind to us. Then they come through the neighborhood. We would speak with him. And when I spoke to the detective, he automatically started just belittling me. He moved your uh uh, you know you did the crime. I'm like, well, what are you trying to You're trying to damage my life, man, you know, like you're trying to hurt me. What are

you doing? And so he just kept getting my face and arguing at me and trying to get me to confess. He was trying to leave me on with questions. I was smart enough, even I was eighteen years old, I was smart enough to know that he's trying to pull them into a trap. I said, look, man, um, I said, I don't I don't know what your situation is, but look, you got the wrong man, I said, I have alibis and everything. Why why are you doing this? He just said, well, look,

you told me signed. I said, I didn't tell you anything. I said, I'm not gonna sign anything. I said, you know I didn't know. I said, I'm not signing anything. He's like, well, he said, they're making a difference. He said, who you think they're gonna believe me over you? He said, I'll take that young girl. He said when I put him pigtails, and they'll look at you like an animal. I said, why are you doing so me? I put my head down because I said, I just want to

go home, maybe my family, you know. And he told me, he said, You're never going home. And so that right there he broke my heart. But nevertheless I still didn't win giving him what he wanted. He wanted me to just outright tell him I did it. I stopped. Then. I just can't do that, man. And after that was in jail the Saturday morning that Monday over the court that you know, I'm hearing I come fast and I

had brutally raped this girl. And and so I'm I'm caught like what because I had an out of by witness, I had a preacher's wife. She was in the house, her son, guy named Michael Norfleet, and a host of other guys who saw me that day that New Da I had on all brown and black. I hadn't been out side, and so I was being fuddled because the only move I made that they was to get to his house stay in his house. And when we saw the police later on, that was it. There were all

these signs. I mean, they weren't just ignored. They were I mean, his rights were trampled on. We know that because I mean, when you get an officer actually lying about a confession, we know about false confessions. This wasn't even that, this was a non confession that they then just made up a story. He told you he was going to do it, and he did do it right, Which is interesting too because he actually told you up front,

here's what I'm gonna do to you. What would anybody feel in that situation other than why are you doing this to me? I'm not that guy? Like it's such a horrifying scenario, and especially like you said, as you did, as as I did, I'm sure as Lisa did. We all grew up respecting authority figures, expecting the uniform. We know that they're there to serve and protect and that there are the people you call if you're in trouble. Now of a sudden, other people are trying to put

you in trouble. So help me out here, because this is a this is a bad one. Well, I don't know how much I can help you out with it. I mean, it reminds me of so many other cases that we've heard about, the Central Park five and Jeff Duskovic and Andy kreeb Back, and I think the differences that Darnell had the state of mind at the time that he just was not going to give a false confession, and clearly that officer knew that and he didn't care, and he was going to say that he did it anyway.

And that's, you know, the story that they continue to say that Darnell confessed, and that's what they've stuck to for twenty eight years. So even the recent court decision, it still continues to state that, you know, Darnell confessed,

which we just know is patently false. Yeah, we're going to get to that later because there's a whole long tell on this story, right, you know, he's still being persecuted by the state, even after having been proven innocent, and even after the victim coming forward repeatedly and really begging the authorities to reverse this and realizing that she had made a mistake. And we can get into that too,

and how she was really coerced into implicating you. Obviously, when someone endures a traumatic experience, which hers can't be more traumatic than what this poor girl went through, they're gonna be prone to misidentifying someone or making mistakes, even if everybody does their job the way they're supposed to. That's not what happened here. But what they're probably not going to make a mistake on is identifying the color

of the clothes, right, facial characteristics, hype. Right, she's not sitting there with a you know, a grass to be able to show how tall you are, how much way they could be off by fifty pounds even who knows, But they're not going to make a mistake on the color of the clothes, not that big of a mistake. It's not like it was gray or you know, light black, or you know what I mean, Like you were wearing completely different clothes. Round and black Paisley black pants, brown

and black Paisley shirt. Chicago Bulls had. The person they were looking at had a white and green jersey with the numbers forty two. She described that person is being a little older, out of shape. At the time, I used to run every morning, so I was like a hundred and seventy pounds. I should train with my cousin, you know, go boxing and everything. So you know, I was slim and trim, you know. And the sad part about it was that that's a brown and black garment.

They paraded it around in court as if that was the white and green shirt, as if they implicated me with guilt, And I'm like, are they seeing this? The jury, I'm like, are you seeing this? This is a brown and black shirt someone white and green. This is not like that thing that went around on the internet a while ago where it was his address gold or is it blue? Right? And it was this whole This is not that. This is cut and dried. Anybody with eyes

can tell the difference between those colors. It's not tricky. But speaking of tricky, I mean, the only word I can think of for it is disgusting on a number of levels, which is what they did to influence this young girl, to implicate you. Right, They were willing to go to extreme lengths to let's just call it, get this case off their desk, Lisa, can you talk about some of the things that they did to influence this young girl who was so impressionable at this point and

so damaged and so upset. So the victim in this case was a ten year old female who had been brutally sexually assaulted. She could not identify anyone when they came to speak with her, and they influenced her by telling her that Darnell had fact confessed, but that they couldn't use the confession against him. They told her that

her blood was found on Darnell's underwear. They told her that Darnell had committed similar crimes and been in trouble in the past, all of which were absolutely false, And they told her this to influence her to give an identification of Darnell to maintain the charge, but and also to get a conviction in a trial. Yeah, I mean disgusting.

I don't even think begins to cover doing that to someone, because not only are you doing this to Darnell, who they knew was innocent, It's not a mistake, It's not an innocent mistake. In this case, they knew he was innocent.

And it's not just leaving a predator on the street who is most likely going to commit another crime like this, but you're also committing a fraud on a ten year old victim who was sexually assaulted and her family who all had to go through that, and then twenty eight years later she finds out that it's all been a lie.

And think about what kind of wrapping your mind around that would do to you after going through that kind of an experience as a child, and now having to wrap your mind around that you know you are part of this fraud as well, I mean, unknowingly didn't do anything wrong on her own. She was told this, and of course we all believe the police when you're tending you go through something like that, all of us would

believe that. When it comes to the girl. I was getting the chills while you were talking, because I was thinking, who's to say that this guy who's still out on the streets wasn't going to go back and rape her again? Right? She was in danger, and look, maybe they couldn't have caught him anyway, Maybe he had disappeared into thin air or gone to Canada or who knows, right, but if he was around, there was a way to find him. I mean, this is Virginia Beach too, This is not

a tiny little town. They have resources, right, They have trained professionals that could have gone and done the hard

work to go find this guy. Well, the tourism industry and Virginia Beach is very strong, as well as the military community, and I think for both of those things, you know, you would want to find the actual perpetrator rather than just lock somebody up and like you said, get to get the file off their desk and give the public the false impression that everything is safe now out and you can go out and do your thing, when in fact they should have been telling people to

keep a careful eye on their kids while we're continuing this investigation. Don't let them go anywhere by themselves. I'm sure kids were just right back to riding their bikes and doing whatever they did in Virginia Beach back then, years ago. Darnell, let's talk about the trial. There you are with alibi witnesses, credible alibi witnesses, as you said, the preacher's daughter and this and that and like your friends, and you had almost air tight case how long were

you in jail awaiting trial. I stayed in jail for like five months, and um I made bond. Here's how far the injustice goes, Jason. When I was in jail, my lawyer told me said, Darnell, look, you don't have a record, and there are certain things in this case that he said, don't line up. He said, but they have to give you a record. I said, give me a record. Like what he said, They're gonna open a book up on you. They didn't give you a robbery charge. I said, robbery charge, So they gave me it was

two cases. But because this rape charge was so heavy, they gave me a robbery charge. When I had witnesses. I was at work. I couldn't have been there, right, I didn't drive at the time, Jason. So so they invented a prior robbery. So they just give me a criminal record. So they had an open robbery case and they just decided. He told me they were gonna dump it and they and they gave a description of the

man at the time. You know, when I saw the guy on the photos, I saw it was like he was like a larger, lighted skinned guy at Ballhead at the time and my I d picture. I had full head of hair, you know this summertime. I was you know, dark brown. So they had like a surveillance photo of the guy. The guy had an ear ring in his ear. He now here's the thing about it. I had an ear ring in my ear when I was fourteen. It

became infected because my brother friend did it. But by the time trial came along four years later, the victim had said that guy had an ear ring, but a plastic surgeon came and told him that it's nowhere in the world his ear could have been open at that time. He said, this is a fully healed ear. He said, it's nowhere in the world possible. And so I didn't look like the guy. I had alibi witnesses, so they give me another false charge. But the other case, I

was facing three life sentences in thirty years. So really I wasn't thinking about that too much, right, and so they were just pretty much dumping everything on me. So when I got out on bond, man, uh, I was very fearful person because my outlook on the police officers,

they weren't the same anymore. It's a good thing they caught the guy that killed their blink and they might have tried to pin that on you too, you know what I mean, Like, yeah, you know we got an open were in the theater back in eighteen sixty whatever, and they'd be like, yeah, this guy, this is the guy right here, you know what I mean. We could laugh about it now when you're laughing about it, but like it's actually it's preposterous. So back to the trial.

So I got out on bond over them the fifth nine nine. I went to trial in June nine. I saw my first day, my lawyer told me to go to the back of the courtroom. I was like, well, why do you tend to go to the back of the courtroom. For they saw the prosecutor walking the victim down the owlet and they stopped on my aisle. And she didn't she didn't point me out, but what she did she stopped by my ole and I'm like, what the world is going on? But later on we found

out that they coaster. She said that the coaster that look, he's going to be sitting at that table. This is what he got on. Don't change your story. So she was coached not only by police officer, was coached by prosecutors came time for trial to you know, the victim pointed me out from that, I found that out maybe like a year ago, you know what I mean. So keep mind twenty seven years past. I'm finding this out. I'm like, that's what's going on, because I was often puzzled,

why didn't you just stop her? Whether role I was at? And so I said, that's why the prosecutors did that. Were there any rumors around because you were out for this period of time before the trial, Were there rumors around the neighborhood about somebody else that might have done it? Yeah?

The name was mentioned by uh one of the victims family friends, as well as believe the victim's father about some man named Omar because one of the victim's friends ends she said that when she was walking on the path and saw the girl with the bike, she said she saw also so a guy with a black hat, very popular Michael, like a bull's hat at the time. You know, he was twirling in his hands, and she said he had on similar type clothing, you know, like

white and green and stuff. She said, well, he was toiling to happen. Then when she looked, he just took off running and she said, oh, they looked looks like Omar in court. When I heard that, I said, okay. So ever, thenly maybe you know, they'll find this Omar guy, so I'll be in the clear. But they never really looked for Omar, you know, So they weren't really interested

in They were an interesting Omar. They were interesting darn there, but at that point, and also it's important to remember that not only was their misconduct by the police and Darnel's original questioning, but there was continued misconduct by pointing Darnell out to the victim in the courtroom and coaching her and telling her these false things about Darnell from the first place. So really from the star throughout the trial with the prosecutors there was continued shenanigans to nail

it on him. And I don't really think they were interested in anybody else. Clearly they weren't interested. But they clearly knew that he didn't do it, too, because if he did it, you don't have to go about it

this way. That's true. I mean, we do have obviously cases of tunnel vision where you have prosecutors and police who believe that they have the right guy, and then they just sort of, you know, they get into this sort of vortex where they shape and shift the narrative in order to fit what they believed to be true. And that's a thing that happens. This doesn't seem like

that was the case at all. They knew you didn't confess, they knew you weren't wearing the right clothes, they knew you had an alibi, they knew you had never been in trouble. There was not one little thing that would have indicated to anybody that was actually you. So this cannot be swept under the rug and called the you know, a mistake and in a case of tunnel vision, because that's clearly not what it was. I mean, what this was was a lynching for back of a better word.

And so you go to trial. How long did the trial last trial? Did you testify? Yes, it did, and what was that like? Well, to me, uh, eighteen, You know, you don't have the same verbiage as you know, but to a prosecutor, you know. And so even though you can stand your grounds, you really can't protect yourself because you don't know any of the legal terminology. And so every time you you're trying to say no, I was here with my friend, well this and that, and it

didn't trick me up. I just couldn't express myself as well as I can now, because you know, the eighteen year old Donna in the forty seven year old Donna. There, there's a it's a large difference, you know, And so to me it was horrifying because I'm like, can't they can't they see what's going on. I mean, they're about to take my life. I said, they're not considering this, and I'm looking at the prosecutors and they were dead set on me going to prison for the rest of

my life. I'm looking at the police office. I'm like, I'm looking at them fabricating a story because I know I was in the house that day, and so I couldn't have been out raping someone. I was trying to tell them this what I was watching on TV. If you go back and look at this on TV, you'll see I'm correct. There's no way I know where I could have been on the crime scene, but watching TV, I was trying to tell them about my friends mother.

She had told them, but they would not let her testify in court because at that moment she had brain cancer and the months that I was out, she begins to lose her sight, but she said she still remember that man did not have on white and green. That man held him all brown and black. And he was right here on this couch with me. So they never let her testify that day. To me, it was horrible. You know, I didn't have a jury of my peers.

You know, I think the closest they came to a drill my peers was a person that was she's talking about. I don't know whether she was Chinese, I don't I don't know what she was. But no black people on jury, oh you know. And so you know, I had blunch the other day with a friend of mine who's doing great things and criminal justice reform, and and she was telling me before she became this performer, you know, now, I don't think anybody put her on a jury. But

she was on the jury. And she said she was on this case and it was a serious criminal case. And she said the third day of deliberations did jurors started saying, you know what, I really don't care anymore whether the guy's guilty or not. I'm going home like I've had it, Like I got I got things to do. I can't be bothered with this anymore. Like people were just breaking down, all right, guilty, you know what I mean?

Like people were just caving. And I'm making that point because I don't know what went on in your jury room, but after three days, you know, you could kind of understand how jurors could become so stressed out and everybody wants to go home. But I think when you're listening to Darnell and you hear the pain, and you know that he's just one of millions that have gone through this,

so many of whom were innocent. You know, I'm just asking people to keep that in mind when you're in that jury room and it's an inconvenience, you know what, We got to work together to prevent these things from happening. And it's not gonna happen if people are going to be susceptible to their own personal needs at a time when they hold somebody's life in their hands, as it

was in your case. Because I gotta believe that there were jurors in that room that we're sitting there going wait a minute, though, the call that the thing didn't match the description that this to that, I mean, you know, because there was no forensic evidence. I mean, they made up a story about a hair. Write one hair on a blanket, right, that was another thing, right, they said the man he's eighty something now, but he told them, well,

you know, that was what they called junk science. But at the time he said that it had like fourteen particulars that kind of they were similar to mind. But when they tested it in two thousand and one, it shows it was mine at all. As a matter of fact, whoever it was then mother had Caucasian. It was a mind.

The man from the Department of Defense, they tested it. Yeah, so there was junk science involved on top of all the other stuff, because that was the only physical offence was one hair on a blanket that was found with the girl near the girl, which of course now we know wasn't your hair anyway. So if they needed another story to make up, there there it was. And how

long did the jury deliberate? Deliberated like three days. On the third day at the trial, about eight o'clock at night, they rendered the decision and they told me, you know, guilty. You'm like guilty. I know what guilty means, but I'm thinking they made a mistake, because how could you incarcerate somebody who's innocent. And so I'm thinking that maybe I didn't hear this right, and they were reading off the jurors, you know, suggestions, and you know, I'm looking at my lawyer.

I'm saying, so I am I going home tonight? And he looks at me, said he said, no, I'm like, what's going on? You know, He's like, may see you go on to prison, man, I said, going to prison? Man told him I was facing a hundred seven years, but they did. They gave me a hundred years, right, and then with that robbery, they gave me a seven year sentence. Your hundred hundred years at the time, you know, and I'm like a hundred years, I said. I'm like,

I'm a kid. I didn't do anything that was real painful, man, No, because my life was discarded as if, you know, like I was a piece of trash or something, you know, you know, a hundred years and I had dreams and I wanted to do things I wouldn't committing times. You know, I was a very good young man. I just wanted to help people in my life and here they are they I want to take my life so there you go to prison, you're stuck there for decades. And as you said, you were a young man with dreams and

hopes like anybody would be at eighteen. How did you manage to never lose hope in this situation? You know, I was a personally, I had just came into my faith, and I said, you know, regardless of how long I have to stay there, I said, I'm not going to allow that place to cause me to succumb to its environment. The court system had already failed me, so and I just believe that one day the truth will come out. You know. That's just something that was a conviction in me.

Outside of that, the only thing that got me through my faith. Man, I'm gonna be honest with you, right, you know, reading the Bible and studying and praying, and because I want to go into industry, so I studied for that because I wanted to help people. And so I said, well, if I can't help people on the outside, I can help people on the inside. And so that's what I started doing, teaching and preaching and writing. You know, I said, several manuscripts with books, just teaching myself a

lot of things. Man, studying business, I studied law because I did it something to proceve your my own case. Before I worked. You know, I did everything I could man to keep my head above waters, man, But mostly I would say my faith man, and helping people. Man. I found relief in helping others, you know, because everything else, man, it had failed me. So ultimately we know now that you're here, this is a good part of the story. How did you first get in touch with the Virginia

Innocence Project? What did that mean to you when they agreed to represent you, and then how did things develop from there? Well? I was teachers aid at Southampton Correctional Center for several years, and I had a boss there that he sent something to the New York Innocence Project because he said, my big Avia was kind of strange. He said, I kind of stood out for the other inmates,

and he said, you don't belong here. He said something wrong. Then, so I broke down and I told me the story, and he said, Darna, he's I put something into the New York Innocence Project. He's I don't know whether or not they got it, he said, but I put it in. And so several years later I was at Green Rock Correctional Center. I think New York had sent me back some paperwork said that they were opening up Virginia chapter of the Innocence Project. And so one of the students

came and visited me. And this is right after my father had died in two thousand or nine. You know. They visited me and told me he said, Man, I don't know whether or not I'll be able to help you before I leave, he said, but I'm gonna give it my best shot, try to get you out of there before I graduated. I said, that's that's cool. So I met that one student he graduated. I hadn't heard anything for you know, several years, and so finally my older sister one morning, she said, you know what, I

have to do something. So she drove up. She had never been to Scharttesville. She drove up to Shartsville and she had my paperwork. When she went there, she didn't know whether or not the university was open what, but she asked when with them? Right? When? When when you be there? So she brought in, you know, the boxes and everything, and ultimately, and it's this project they really started looking more intent. One thing that touched me will tell you what touched me. Jennifer Gibbons had told me.

She said, you know, Darnielle, even if we don't find DNA, you know, because they would look for the d NA. The city can't find in the DNA because the prosecutors city had been destroyed in two thousand five. So she said, you know, we're gonna fight this even if we don't find DNA. I finally felt like I was being heard. I went through so many decades without being her, and now finally I didn't know how to take it. Someone talking to you like a human didn't given the time

and the energy. And they talked to me. They were very kind, and so I'm like, man, I said, I'm actually gonna get some help. Now. I have been praying about this for years. I said, man, I'm really gonna get some help. Like I said, I have to give it up to the Innercent Project. You know, they were more than lawyers. They were like famine to me. Well, they were lawyers, they were family. They were also private investigators.

They were doing yes. They they started looking around, coming around for evidence, and they had found some evidence, you know, and I'm like, okay, now let's see what this did they're going to show up, and clearly, you know I had no problem testing because I know I didn't do anything. So they went try to get it tested, the clothing because some of the other stuff had been destroyed deliberately, in my opinion, they tested it. They said that Virginia

could find any thing. So they went to an external lab in that labb in California. They found some DNA and and and let's not skip over too quickly the fact that, as if they hadn't done enough, they also lied to you about the existence of the evidence, right They covered it up for a decade. For a decade they said there's no evidence, but there was evidence. And we've seen this again and again in Alan Newton's case, Kurt Bloodsworth's case, so many cases, whether they say the

evidence is not here, but it's here. Somebody just has to go look for But they just keep moving the gold post and trying to hope that they maybe they're

trying to get the warriors to give up. I mean, every time I try to figure it out or understand it, I just I don't understand why they Why would anybody not want to get to the truth except for they want to protect somebody's reputation and this goes on, and it's still going on to this day in your case, which you know, hopefully it will get resolved because we know now that your outt you're still not even really free. So that's another thing that has to get address. And

when we get to that part of the story. So they found the DNA, they got it tested in California. How did you find out that the results came back that showed that you weren't the guy? I was on the ballpark because this was like the third go round because as Virginia tested it, they couldn't find anything. But the guy in California, he said he tested right where they were testing and he found it. And I'm like,

how does that? How does that work? Because Virginia's they're very flaw They're very behind on technology when it comes to DNA. But yet when you presented to the courtrooms, they don't want to receive it because it's not from Virginia. But yet Virginia they have a very flawed forensic science laboratory. You know, I have to say that because if it wasn't, you know, I wouldn't be here years later. So I was outside on yard. The officer told me, look, um,

someone wants to talk to you. So I just called my lawyers. So when I talked to him, dear in right asked me. She said, Darnia, tell you you're sitting down. I said, well, what is it, dear? She's like, are you sitting down? And I'm like, I said, yeah, yeah, she said. A man called from the laboratory in California. He said it wasn't yours. And they said, now here's something that people get confused about. Whoever it was in

the DNA had three markers similar to mine. Scientifically, one in ten African American men have three markers of the same But then when you get to the rest of the markers, it shows so this is a totally different person. One and twenty three individuals have the same three markers. And so the man told them that when you look on the outside, he said, you see the person had similar markers three but when you get to the rest of them, to which they didn't want to test, he said,

it shows you it's not darn there. He said, it's not him. It's not him. So these labs outside of Virginia they solved the truth. But when we brought it back over Virginia side. They didn't want to process it because they didn't do it. So go figure. Figure man, I didn't know that science only worked inside the state lines. You know, science and science. Unfortunately, you know, no one really pushed that law yet, you know, pushed it through. Man. But you know, you have a lot of innocent guys

being overlooked. They have proof, but because sometimes the labs didn't come through Virginia, the testing income to Virginia, they just can't get anything done. And some of these guys I talked to Saturday, I said, it's beautiful you're calling me because I'm going to New York. I said, Man, you know I can never forget you, and I'm not going to forget you. You know, I said, I wish I was totally clear. Man, I can really do some things to help you, you know, But like I say,

you know, unfortunately I'm not in that position yet. But um, which is an interesting thing because you were paroled without admitting guilt, which almost never happens. And I know the audience is probably thinking, wait a minute, but now the DNA wouldn't the case just be overturned and thrown out?

But they still fought that, and you had to go out sort of through the almost through the back door, so to speak, right by getting paroled, but still being forced to register and you know, be punished again on the outside because in your case, Virginia just doesn't want to admit that they're wrong. But we were talking about before, which is so profound because the victim herself, right, who's

now a grown woman. I mean this is twenty years ago, so she's thirty eight, thirty nine years old, and talk about what her advocacy for you has met and how they have prevented her, Like she wanted to actually come and greet you and hug you and apologize or whatever it was that was on her mind as you were coming out the prison gates, and they wouldn't even allow her to do that. She had requested it, because she was the one who went and testified. Don't my behalf?

You know once my lawyers, of course, I've never spoken to her outside of that at all, but my lawyers when they talked to hers, she's like, well, look, you know, I want to do whatever I can to help get darn alexoner rated. She went to the broad board herself, so she she asked my lawyers. She said, well, you know, can I go and see Darnell. They're like, well, you know, I can't do that because you know, like I said, the system. You know, she still want to meet me

to this day, I can't meet her. I don't know, man. I appreciate her because you know, she could have kept in her mind, she'd have went to a grade with it. But she she was a bold woman. Not to me, that was a profound because she's done more than a lot of times than manyte illegal people have done for me,

you know, because she came forth with the truth. She feeled in a lot of blanks that I didn't know, my lawyers didn't know as to why things were going on, you know, like an undercurrent, and she filled them blanks in. So for that, I'll ever be grateful to her. And so you walked out of prison after twenty eight years, Well, I was ecstatic then, Jason, because one, you know, you're you're an ambitious man, Lisa, you're a very ambitious woman.

You know, you had an opportunity to work in your passions. Well, me, even though a lot of times I worked in my passion in prison. Now I'm like I can finally come out and do this because that those fires never died in me. And so I'm like, man, I'm gonna be able to do this now. That's that's all I wanted to do. I wanted to feel like what my purpose was that was going to ministry in the business, to marry my fiance. It would been with me for eighteen

years fighting alongside. And I'm like, man, I'm gonna getting married and I'm gonna be able to go go to the ministry. I'm gonna be able to start a business. I'm gonna be be around my mother and to close that chapter of my life, so to speak. What is it like now, Like, how's your day to day? Been out for four months now? People do recognize me. They're very empathetic, you know, sympathetic

towards me. But when it comes time to work. Now, to keep miles in forty seven years old, man, pretty much have to start like a person who's sixteen years old. The jobs I go for, I go for like sales jobs, or I go for any other type of job, and I broke it down to warehouse or whatever. I just wanted some employment. Sometimes even though they're not supposed to discriminate and even though they believe you, and even though

they took me, I recognize your case. But one of the jobs I had went to the man said you know, he said, man, you have to be cleared. When I go to the background, Jay said, you have to be cleared for this job. He's I understand your situation, but you have to be cleared, and so that I couldn't get a job. Personally, I understood because I know that he has to represent his business. But in my heart and mind, I'm like, man, I'm still paying for something

I didn't do. So I have to depend on other people for money when that is not my nature at all. All I want to do is be able to provide for myself, get married, you know, get a vehicle. I have to depend on people for rides because I can't even get a cheap vehicle. And so even though I'm glad to be out, you know, I'm grateful, but I still have to suffer day to day. I want to start my own business. I wanna start all the detail

of business. But if I could work, I could get the little money that it costs a little six hours. Now that shouldn't a struggle. But you can't work, so you can't get the money. And so I'm not a criminal, so I'm not going to commit crimes. I'm not going to sale drugs. I'm not gonna ride. That's not my nature. The only thing I can do man's pray. Man look for opportunity to come man. People that are listening, maybe they live in or know about opportunities in the area

of Virginia Beach area. How would they contact you? Do you have a website or an email, a dress or something like that you want to share. I have an email h d A r N p h I L nineteen at yahoo dot com. Darn Field d A R N p h I L nineteen the number nineteen at y'allhoo dot com. If people want to reach out to you for speaking gigs maybe or anything else like that. We actually set up a go fund me to try to give him more opportunities. Now, you know, in the

meantime of being fully exonerated. How do people access to go fund me? So they can google Darneld Phillips go fund me, or they can go to the website v for j R dot org. And there's a link on our website to the go fund me account v as in Victor the number four j r dot org or they can look us up Virginians for Judicial Reform on Facebook and there are links to it on our Facebook and Twitter and Instagram as well. So before we wrap up,

my question for you is, are you better? No, I'm gonna be honest with you, Jason, that that would sound crazy. But when I said that I would let that place, I would let this situation change me. I make that. I bowed that to myself and I bowed it to God. I said I would not allow it to change me. Nicole's it will make me like them, you know. And I'm not talking about the inmate. It would make me like the wickedness that people perform to get me in there,

you know. So I'm not bitter. I did not like what happened to me, but I'm not bitter because the people I met, the experiences I went through outside of the legal system. Now, the individuals I met over my eyes up to you know that their cause is bigger than myself, and my only thing is how do I get involved to help them? You know, because it's all

about helping people. It's all about helping people get to the next level in their life, you know, and you have to live your life or calls outside of yourself, you know, like like you, you know you you're a great producer, but you find the time to help guys in situations like mine, you know what I mean. There's two different things. But nevertheless, that's a passion of yours, you know what I mean, that's a gods and for guys like me, Man, you don't really know how how

strongly you know you affect us. Man, You really affect us to a degree, man, to our core because you actually hear guys, you actually take the time out. I remember when I called you on the phone. I was shocked. I thought I would get the secretary of somebody, said I just got answered his phone. I mean for real, I said, he just got answered his phone, just got care for real. And so you don't find many people like you, man, So I would just say, Man, continue

what you're doing, man, you know, and and praftly. One day, Man, I'll be able to help people just like that. You definitely will. And you know, for me, it's a duty but also a privilege to be able to be around people like yourself who have been to hell and back and come out with a smiling face and a bouncing

your step. It's an unbelievable thing. I mean, it's really a selfish thing that I do, you know, because it makes my life better, you know, knowing you people like Lisa that are involved in the fight, the others honorees, they're really the finest people that I've had the chance to come across, most of them, Marks Houre's it's crazy. So I don't I don't really understand it, but it

is what it is. So um, this is the part of the show, which is my favorite part of the show because this is a part of the show where I get to stop talking and listen and uh, you know, first of all, I want to thank both of you for coming. It's been an honor for me to take this show with you. So thanks again, Darnell Phelips for coming in and sharing your thoughts and Lisa Speeds. Keep fighting the good fight. Um, you know, we'll keep working together and the winds are few and far between, and

the frustrations a lot, but we just keep fighting. So but the ones are worth it, that's right. So now I'm gonna turn it over to you just for some brief final thoughts, Um, Lisa, you can go first, because we're gonna say the best for last. Well, thank you for having me. I think Darnell's cases just kind of interesting to me because I learned about him from another

wrongfully convicted person that's still in prison. And when I would email with Darnell has emails to me while he was still in prison were so like uplifting and it just was like a breath of fresh air into my day. So seeing him be on the outside and meeting him in person today was an incredible experience. We have some real problems with the criminal justice system in Virginia. UM, we don't have parole juries, recommend sentences. The way our rid of actual innocence is designed is you know, to

kind of circumvent actual justice. Ignoring DNA evidence because it didn't come from a Virginia lab is wrong. And so you know, we would love for more people to get involved, and I know Darnel wants to get involved and trying to change the system there too, truly seek out justice for all of us and make it better. So thanks

for having me. What I would like to say, I would like to speak to those who are presently incarcerated you know, if they can hear it, be that there is always hope, you know, never give up, you know, never let go your dream of being released from prison, especially for the false incarcerated. I know that there are groups and people who we'll hear you, can hear you, and can feel what you're feeling. From one innocent man

to another, I said, man, keep your faith. Don't give up this twenty eight years later, as long as we have good people like the Innocence Project, Jays and Fly Lisa Speedies, these people out here to help us. So don't give up. You know, sometimes it's easy to you know, to stop writing people, to just succumb to the system, you know, figuring you know you're losing hope, and figuring that you look. No one wants to hear, no one wants to get involved in my situation. Don't fall prey

to the lie. Reach out. There's someone who will help you. Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction and uh tune in next week. Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project, and I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot org to learn how to donate and

get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wardis. The music in the show is by three time OSCAR nomineon composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam is a production Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one