This call is from a correction facility, and it's subject to monitoring and recording.
I can put athlete eleven and it hasn't been.
Easy a hundred years.
That's man.
I'm a kid. I didn't do anything, you know, and uh, you know that was a that was real painful, man, you know, because my life was discarded as if you know, like I was a piece of trash or something, you know, one hundred years and I had dreams and I wanted to do things. I wasn't committing crimes, you know. I was a very good young man.
That is what happens in so many cases. The cops have a hunch, because they're so smart at the scene, they have a hunch, and once they act on that hunch, they sort of developed tunnel vision and they take off marching in the wrong direction. And that happens in so many of these wrongful convictions.
The opening to sell door and I'll walk down stif and I actually walked down stairs to be outside. It felt very strange to be, like I said, to be walking without no shackles on my feet. I thought it was a dream. But then again, it wasn't a dream.
This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. This is Jason Flamm. I'm your host, and today we have an extraordinary episode. I mean, I am I don't even I'm at a loss for words, but I'm going to introduce our guests right now. Fred Clay was wrongfully imprisoned at the age of sixteen and served thirty eight years for a murder he didn't commit. Fred, Welcome to the show.
Thank you very much, very long. I appreciate it very much.
I always say I'm glad, I'm sorry you're here, but I'm glad you're here, and I want to start off by apologizing to you on behalf of the human race and America and people and just there's nothing that can be said, but let me just put that out there for starters and with us. Today is Chris Barrell. Chris Barrell is an investigative reporter with the nonprofit New England Center for Investigative Reporting, a WGBH News partner who does
work on well, he's worked on your case. You're telling your story and as many others well as many others. So Chris, welcome, Glad you're here.
Thanks very much, glad to be here.
Chris, how did you first come across this story and why did it impact you so much that you wanted to do an article about it.
Yeah, well, I work for the New England Center for Investigative Reporting. We've done several stories on wrongful conviction cases and specifically this issue of you know, what happens afterwards, because we do know there's a fair amount of media attention when this happen and somebody's served a long amount of time for a crime that they that they didn't do and they're released and it's you know, a lot of applause and a lot of TV cameras. So I was there the day he got out, as was a
lot of other media. But the question came up, well, what is what is life really like? You know, once this kind of once the applause fades, what is what
is what is a person's life really like? So initially Fred was not that keen on me proffering this idea of following him around at different points over the course of about a year, but I met with him on a couple occasions and he seemed open to it, and so we just struck up this this intervals of trying to meet up and I wanted to see him in different situations, trying to navigate again the basic survival, the blocks,
the basic blocks of survival. How do you, how do you find shelter, how do you how do you feed yourself? And so for the first few months he didn't he didn't have a job. He had a little bit of money from from a go fund Me site and he had food stamps. And his first job was working for UPS,
which was very uneven work. He'd show up for a shift and they'd tell him, well, we've only got a couple hours work instead of a full shift, and he'd walk home through the snow in the street because people didn't show their sidewalks, and we get a lot of snow up in northern Massachusetts. And it wasn't until sometime late winter, early spring that he got this job precision grinding aviation parts, grinding metal, and he seemed really grateful
to have that work. But as everybody knows, rent in most cities in America is really high, and the most he could afford was basically a room and a basement. And he said at least once that that room kind of reminded him, reminded him of prison. All it had was a tiny window, not a whole lot of light coming into it. And that was the best that his circumstance this can allow.
So, Frederick, this is such an insane story because even though we're in our eighth season of Wrongful Conviction, we've told over seventy stories already. H and Just and I've been working for twenty five years in this struggle. I'm the founding board member of the Innocence Project. I thought I heard everything until I heard your story. And you know, seeing the pictures of you as a sixteen year old child really just scared out of your mind faced with
this nightmare situation. It almost it almost reminded me of Emmett Till or something. It was just so it just hurts my heart. But let's go back to that time. You were living in a foster home.
At that time, right, Yes, I was living a foster home. I was placed in it by DYS. I have some juvenile cases and I got convicted too. I got sentenced to like to DYS and he sent me to Boys into Center and stay there for a little while month from there to a program stay of football six months, I believe, and they decided that I need to be in a falseter home. So I was in a fossil home at that.
Time, and you were not a big guy either. You were like I mean, I remember reading that when this happened, you were like five four, about one hundred pounds. You were obviously ill prepared for any type of scenario, Like there's no one's prepared for it. But let's go back to it and Chris jump in anytime. I mean, how did this happen?
Was?
Why was Fred targeted for? This was the murder of a taxi driver in Massachusetts? Right? And can you give us a little background on that?
Yeah, yeah, I mean, the way I understand it is. Fred was arrested just a few weeks after turning sixteen,
charged with the murder of a cab driver. The really crazy part of the story was that one of another cab driver who saw three young Africa American men get into a cab, said he was able to id one of them another the second person he couldn't id, and the police used the practice they used back then of hypnotizing a witness in a case, believing that the brain functioned a lot like a videotape and that you could put a witness under hypnosis and ask them to rewind
to a certain date and time, and suddenly your brain would see things that hadn't recalled before. And that was one of the pieces that led police to arrest and charge Fred and ultimately for prosecutors to convict him.
But this Fred, this witness, how did he come to identify you? Were you anywhere near the scene at the time? Did you know these people?
I was not in the scene. I was in a Foster home and sleeping in the bed. I really don't know how he became to identify me. I really can't answer that question. He claims he saw the picture of the cab driver of the cab in the front page of the Boston Globe, and he recognized the cap number. I guess one of his friends used to break that cap and he thought, he's, uh, the perpetrators get into the cab the previous night, and I guess he just went to the police station and tried to cooperate with
the police. There was hypnosis involved. I think he was showing my picture a few times, like four or five, six times, and when they hypnotized them, instead of him actually placing it, you know, actually viewing the people, the perpetrator at the scene of crime. He's sort of like mugshot. Sort of my faith from the mugshot.
Was in his mind, right, So yeah, I mean what we know that hypnosis, Going back to what Chris was saying, hypnosis will make you see things you haven't seen before, but they will may not have any collection to reality. Right, that's the problem.
I don't think. I don't think the hypnosi had anything to do with when someone shows you a photograph five or six times, that face is somewhat imprinted in your mind.
Of course. I mean, that's one thing we do know about the mind is if you keep getting repeated the same image repeated over and over again, it's going to play tricks on your mind, and your mind will start to go in that place.
And was this That's why I think what happened. He just does your mind played his mind played tricks on something. I really can't I really can't answer that question how he picked me out? But he did.
Was there was this robbery at night?
Yes, it's four o'clock in the morning, four.
O'clock in the morning, so it's pitch dark outside, right, and this guy supposedly saw the robbery, right, But we know how I mean, and we also know that the brain when you witness a violent crime I wouldn't identification
is notoriously unreliable in the first place. If somebody busts into the studio now and attacks one of us, and then they put us in a lineup, there's almost just as much chance that someone who wasn't here will identify the correct perpetrator or not get the wrong perpetrator the same way that we will, which is a crazy and people listening going, that's not true, but it has been proven over and over again. But it's the brain goes crazy, so to speak, because of adrenaline and other factors when
you're in the presence when you're actually in danger. Right, So, when you're either the victim or when you're witness to a violent crime, as this one was, we know that your senses are altered because of the fact that you're just scared out of your brain literally. So and this was one of those cases, right, this was a shooting.
Yeah, there's two. I'll jump in here to help clarify this. So the witness we're talking about, who was hypnotized by police, had claimed that he'd seen these these young African American males get into this cab. Then the cab goes or allegedly goes to a housing project a little bit south
of the city in Roslindale. And then there was another witness that also had pretty serious question marks around how the police interacted with this witness, and this other witness claimed that he did actually see the shooting out of a window of an apartment in the housing project. What Fred's attorneys later found out and really stressed and trying to re engage with this case and prove that Fred didn't do it, was see that this witness was I
think a teenager. He had pretty severe developmental, you know, cognitive issues, and that police furthermore told him and his family that if they testified against Fred, that they would be moved out of this project housing project which was mostly African American, into a housing project which was mostly white. And again this witness was white.
Wow, so you talk about coercion or you know, And isn't that a crazy thing to Chris and Fred is that everyone, even the most casual TV watcher right who watched his crime shows, knows that you cannot bribe a witness. You go to prison for riving witness in America. Right, but the government is able to offer the best bribe that there is. I mean, in this case, it was a new home. Right, It's almost like a game show. Here's a new home. Just testify the way we want
you to. Or they can threaten you. Or they can threaten you, and they do that very often, will take your kids away, will lock you up for some prior thing whatever. Or they can also agree to vacate charges or reduce charges that they have against you. So it's amazing that the weapons that they have in there are so it's really not a fair fight whatsoever. But what were you going to say? Fred?
Also the witness that Chris was talking about, they happened to Ros and their projects. This witness I sort of I didn't know him personally, but we've seen each other from time to time in the projects, so he was familiar with my faith. That's another thing that was really that was really not really mentioned a little bit, but
it wasn't really focused on. So when someone recognized your face and they see your your picture in the in the photo array, then they're not really picking out the perpetrated. They're picking out a familiar face. So just because he was familiar with by face. He sort of just placed me at the scene of crime based on the fact that he was familiar with my face, not because he saw me at the scene the crime.
So we have a couple of factors here that are very common and wrong for convictions. We have police misconduct, we have wrong flight witness identification, two of those in fact, and then it gets worse. So you were were you at home when you were arrested? How did this all go down? And how long did you have to wait for trial? Who was your I assume you had a public defender. Can you fill in some of those blanks for us?
Fred, Yes, I was at the foster home when I got it. I was actually when I went, I was on probation because I had some juvenile cases, so I had some issuons with the foster parent. I really didn't. And she claims I ran away, but I never really ran away. I just you know, vanished from time to time and came back. But anyway, I showed up on November fifteen through her house and I didn't know that,
but she had previously reported me for running. So when I showed up on November fifteen, she informed me that I can stay that night, but at the same time, she didn't want me to do the next morning. I had to leave the next morning. So the next morning came and she told me I had to leave because
she reported me running. She didn't want the police that are out, so I left, and I was on probation, so I went to the probation officer and sort of told her what was going on, and based on that, they sent me back to another facility that I was previously held at before, a juvenile facility, and I was there for a few for about a little over a couple of weeks, I believe, and to playing cozy touches.
Came in one evening and they went up to the main desk to talk to the council of work there, and maybe about two minutes after that, they called my name and I went up to the desk and they asked me my name. I told my name is Frederick Clay. They told me they needed to speak with me, so they took me to like a little room off to the side, and in that room they informed me that
David was arrested me for murder. So I really didn't know anything about the murder until it actually they came there and arrest me for it, and my attorney at the time when I went to trial was Thomas Saperro. So it's kind of crazy how I was somewhat informed about the murder.
How long were you in jail awaiting trial, because I'm assuming that there was either new years two years waiting. Wow, So that whole thing about it in the constitution.
Arrested November seventy nine and I didn't go to trial until nineteen eighty one.
Right, that whole thing in the constitution about your right to a speedy trial, we really don't see that very often in this country. It's kind of weird. I don't know how that can be so routinely ignored or violated, but it is, and your case is sadly not atypical
in that sense. So you're in jail for two years awaiting trial, and let's go to the trial, because it's always I think for our listeners and even for me an eye opener, to hear how these things go, especially in a case as serious as this one where you were facing life in prison. Tell us what you can remember about the trial? For instance, did you think if you can remember and again, you were in prison, for
so long. I mean, it's actually crazy. You went to prison at sixteen, and you were in for thirty eight years, which means you were in prison for almost two and a half times as long as you had been alive, right, and your life experience as a sixteen year old, Let's face it, the first three or four years, we're not even really sentient beings. We're kind of just stumbling around, eating animal crackers or doing whatever we're doing right, and playing with toys and having I'm gonna read us a
book and hug us or if we're lucky. So you know, for you, your life experience was so brief before you entered the system, and you had already been in and out of the system. So here you are at trial, and did you, if you can recall, did you feel like when the jury went out that you were going to be convicted or did you still have hope that you did justice would be done.
Well, I wasn't really sure there was a fifty to fifty chance that I was going to get convicted. I thought, once I get understand and tell the truth and so sort of present my case and present the evidence that actually prove that I was innocent and have E present my olibi. I thought, I was I might have a chance of being found not guilty, so I was I was hoping that I was going to be found not guilty.
But at the back of my mind, according to my attorneys, you know, there was a possible chance that I could get convicted. So I was positive, hopefully that I was going to get found not guilty. But at the same time, I was concerned that I will be found guilty. So I had a fifty to fifty chance.
And just backtracking for a second, the witnesses against you, were they white or black?
Well, a couple of them was black, I mean white, and one of them was black, But the one was black really didn't really really didn't really hurt me that much. But the two name was that, yes, they was white.
And the reason I raised that question is because we know from decades of experience, research, studies, et cetera, that cross racial identifications are just notoriously unreliable, much more so than when people are, you know, trying to identify someone of their own race. I think there's a lot of reasons for that. We don't have to get into all of them, but it's worth knowing because everyone that's listening
right now. As I always say on this, always a potential juror, and someday they may be faced with a situation like yours, where there will be I mean, there was no evidence against you, so it was only the witness's word. And if it is a cross racial identification, and it doesn't matter whether that's why white person testifying against a black person, a Hispanic person testifying against a white person, whatever it might be, it's just not reliable.
And so your case is an important one to highlight that particular factor because again, the reason why I do this show, Fred is because I want to help to prevent these things from happening to other people in the future, as I'm sure you do.
I'm not sure if there was a well known fact back in nineteen eighty one the cross racial identification issue, but it's a well known fact now.
Right, and I'm glad you brought that up. So the jury comes back and it had to be the worst feeling in the world, and you were sentenced to life in prison, which is again a bizarre.
Yeah, a natural life, not just a life, a natural life. Life sort of means like a second degree life, but natural means a first to be life sentence with the chance of no parole, which means like a you got'spen investing in your life in prison, you go and die in prison.
And Chris, let's talk about that. I mean, I mean, what kind of a system do we have where we can sent in someone who was really a child an adolescent when this happened, a young teenager to life in prison. Yeah, I mean it is.
It's just shocking. And you know, thankfully there were later, much later, the Supreme Court decisions that tried to undo some of that. So it did at a very much later stage, did make Fred eligible for parole. But we're talking again, decades later that there was some understanding of
just how wrong that is. That obviously, to charge someone at sixteen, put and put them to adult trial raises a lot of really serious quesnessions, but then to make that same person prone to being convicted and sentenced to life without any chance of parole is all the more shocking.
Yeah, just think about it, judge telling you, a sixteen year old kid that you are incapable of changing, so therefore you need to spend the rest of your life in adults prison. You know, and often think about that and they took me out of a bad situation, and they put me in even a worse situation because a lot of people don't survive prison, and I was thinking about a lot of that stuff and how I was going to survive that, whether I was going to end
up being murdered, raped, killed, whatever. So just to have someone tell you at the age of sixteen that we think that you are incapable of changing.
And when you went to prison, this was you know, this was the reality, right, I mean, this was a very violent place and you were in amongst people who were much older than you, stronger, you know, and here you are, like thrust into this unimaginable nightmare. How did you manage to survive as a young not a particularly big tough guy, but you know, a young, skinny guy in that situation. How did you manage to survive?
Well? Personally, I just paid attention to my surroundings. A lot of older gentleman that was doing natural life sentence sort of took a liking to me, and they just sort of just gave me, just told me the way
of prison life. Mind your business. If you see something, keep it to yourself, don't talk to corrections officers, try to stay out of trouble, get into programs, try to use that time to benefit me as a person, to change things about myself that I did not like, to sort of use that time to work on me as a human being. And they also let me. They also told me I had to figure out how to do the time and not let the time do me. And
it took me quite a while to understand that. So, like what you mean, due to time and not let the time do me. So basically what they was telling me, just what I was telling you, is just try to use this bad experience and focus on the things that I do do not like about myself and the things that I can change to make me feel good about myself and to make other people see me in a
way that I want them to see me. So I it was a little bit of that, and it was just a little bit of me just figuring out who I can trust and who I can't trust, and also not to put myself in a certain position to have some of these bad things happened to me. Just you know, make sure that whoever I'm dealing with be upfront with them about my situation and just be aware of their motives, you.
Know, and then there was a sort of a hero emerged, if you could call it that, from this situation. A guy named Roosevelt Pickett really helped to pull you out of this right and introduce you to a very unlikely character who became almost like, I don't use too strong of a word, but almost like your savior, right, And can you talk about that?
Oh much?
Yeah, that whole situation is so interesting to me, So can you talk about that a little bit?
Well. Roosevelt Pickett was as an old gentleman, I think he was like in the sixties, and I knew him at that time. I knew of for about twelve years thirteen years, and he was also doing a life bit and he had he was he was walking on the king he had an accident. He used to do cariding works and stuff like that, so he fell off the
roof and he used to walk around with a game. So. Uh. Anyway, I used to work and if I was in Bay State Prison at this time, and I was working downstairs on the first floor in the day room, and he lived on the first floor, and he was down there cooking in the dayroom one afternoon and I was I was down there doing my job and everything and he was. So we started talking about visits and stuff like that, and he asked me, did I have anybody that you know,
family members and friends that visit me? And I told him, uh, not really. I had my great aunt. She visited me like every two years, three years a year, whenever she could find time to do it. So then he asked me if I was if I wanted somebody to visit me, like from a church and stuff like that, and I said, sure, why not. I grew up in the opportunity to meet somebody from church and just have a friend to come visit me. So he put me in touch with prison ministry.
I think it's called Candlelight Ministries. And I had to fill out some forms and stuff like that, and I filled out the forms and he sent it in and I'm not quite sure how long after that then I met Reverend Fred Small. He came to visit me and I was back in I think that was like in ninety seven, nineteen ninety seven, ninety eight, and once he
came to Bay State to visit me. So our friendship developed and got stronger and stronger, and the more he visited me, the more I started talking about my case and me as a person and things I like and dislike, and I just take this interest. And so he helped me somewhat get out of prison.
And then he spoke to his parishioners and asked if anybody would like to get involved in this, you know, helping out I guess, you know, volunteering to make friends with someone on the inside. And it's interesting because people ask me that question a lot, and I'm always trying to connect people as best I can. And in fact, a software engineer named Doran Dibble, which is sort of an unusual name, right, it's sort of an interesting If I was writing a movie about your story, I would
name the guy Doran Dibble. So Dorian Dibble shows up some sort of a sort of a very square looking white guy, right, sort that comes in out of nowhere. What was your reaction when you met this guy?
Well, he was funny, he was very smart, he was kind, he was very kind, he was generous, he was sincere, he was empathetic, he told he told some jokes. I thought he was a very nice guy, and I thought, this is the kind of person that I need in my life to sort of help me, take me out of my comfort zone, so to speak, because I wasn't really that social with in prison, so he sort of sort of brought me out of my shell a little bit.
So I thought he was a very nice person something that is, someone that I needed to have in my life to help me grow socially anyway, you know, in many other ways after that, to be exact.
And how important was that relationship to you?
It was very important. I mean, how many people do you know will bring their their young, small children in to see a person in prison that's non family. So he became uh, I know I used this phrase before. He was a stranger in the beginning, but he became family to me, and and he's still family right now. So his friendship and him being part of my life was very very important then and it's very important now. He's still in my life right now.
And Chris, in the article that you wrote about the case, I was really moved by this quote from mister Dibble where he said, and I'm quoting, one of the amazing things for me is given his circumstances we're talking life without parole, his resilience, determination, and his decency through all that It's a model to me. He didn't hate the establishment. We're white, he didn't care. I'm getting the chills just reading that. And you actually did the interview with him.
I mean, can you share some insight into this guy, because he really does emerge as a hero in this story.
Yeah, no, it is and was an incredible part of the whole story. And just sitting here honestly listening to Fred again, I really enjoyed every minute hanging out with Fred over the course of the last year. And I'm guessing that listeners can kind of get a feel as to how Fred talks and that people are kind of drawn to the way he talks and understands things about this really awful experience he had he had to go through. And so Dorian Dibble and his wife Jackie, and his
two kids. I met one of his kids who's now, you know, in his twenties, and I hung out with them over dinner that they invited Fred over, and I asked to come along back in July. And yeah, Dorian and his wife Jackie just are really big hearted people and just showed up there in prison, you know, frequently during the year, like every few months, they would drive down and and go. It's not easy to get into
a prison. You gotta sit there and wait and get frisked down and go through metal detectors and wear exactly the right clothing or they turn you away. And you know they again they brought their little kids in to kind of hang out. Friends sit there and play cards, and just the whole dynamic and relationship that was related to me really kind of me away.
It's almost like the family that Fred couldn't have, and now all of a sudden he has sort of an adoptive family inside. And you know, it was a long drive and they would come every couple of months. And there's one more quote, and I want to get back to the story because again this really touched me and I got the chills reading the last one. I'm going to get him again because mister Dibble said, quote, we'd all pile back in the car when our visit was over and it was just dead silence in the car.
Because that's where it really hit everybody. Oh this is from Jackie Dibble. Say we start again, and missus Dibble, Jackie Dibble said, quote, we'd all pile back in the car when our visit was over, and it was just dead silence in the car because that's where it really hit everybody. We'd walk out of there under the barbed wire. We get to go home and he doesn't, and it was just nobody would say anything on the way home
and end quote. And I've had that feeling so many times now visiting people in Priton and who I know are innocent, and then when I leave and that door slams behind and you can't take them with you. It's a horrible feelings. It's a sick feeling actually, And Chris is nodding his head because he knows, and you know, it does drive me and I think all of us every day to try to do more to help people like yourself, Fred, because it's if you've once you've experienced that.
And I brought four people with me up to Sing Sing this weekend where we met many of the men who are stuck there, some of whom are innocent, some are not. But you know, I would say that ninety percent of the people that we met there don't belong there. You know, they've served their time, they have made a mistake. I'm of the Brian Stevenson school. He's one of my heroes and you know, he said, I believe everyone is
better than the worst thing they've ever done. You know, I think in our system we overincarcerate to such an extreme degree, we over punish. The institutions that we have that are called correctional institutions are not by and large, and all of it needs to change. And that's why it's so important that you're here, Fred to tell your story. So I really appreciate that, and you too, Chris. So Fred tell us how this situation changed. Because you were sentenced to life in prison, you had no hope to
get out. You found this inner strength, this grace, this courage that always mystifies me and amazes me and makes me, you know, draws me two people like yourself because I get so much out of just talking to you and spending time. And so how did you ultimately? I mean, we know how you survive because you explain that, But how did you get out? Because you're here now and that's a fantastic thing, and I know, and I want to talk about the struggle of being out as well.
Becau's what I call the second punishment. But how did that? Let's get to the happy stuff. How'd you get out?
Well, I got out on a new trial motion. Lisa Kavanaugh from the CPCs Innocent Program, she's my attorney. She was my attorney on our pill We drafted and critique and finally finalized a new trial motion, and we followed that. I think when I was in Concuent Farm, probably late twenty sixteen. I believe it took a while, but between by witness identification, the hypnosis, cross racial identification, somewhat mug shot exposure, some police reports that the detectives somewhat I
mean obviously overlooked. It was a combination of all that stuff together that helped me get out of prison. Also in twenty thirteen, I would say late December twenty thirteen, the Juveeile Life of law change which gave juveniles and opportunities juveniles under the age of eighteen an opportunity to see the parole board. So once that law changed, that
law allowed me to see the parole board. So at that particular time, I was not I was still thinking about and preparing for my Route thirty emotion, but I was also preparing for my parole hearing. So I ended up going to parole May twenty first, twenty fifteen, I should say, and the results of that, I ended up getting presented my case a parole board, stating that I was innocent, but at the same time taking responsibility for
the crimes that I did do. For the juvenile issue, the cases that I had previous of me getting arrested for this murder case, I took responsibility for all that stuff, but I did not take responsibility for the current case that I was doing time for with much the murder. And I let them know that if I did do it, I would have no problem taking responsibility to meet and guilt. But that's not the case. So I did not admit
to something I did not do. But at the same time I was letting them know that prison so you I mean by be being in prison, I was not the same person I was when I first went to president. I was a different person sitting in front of them. So I just explained to them how different I was through programs and education and stuff like that. So basically I got up I was going I was set to
get out on parole anyway. I was scheduled to get out on parole August twelve, but August twelfth was on a Saturday, so they pushed it to August fourteenth, was on Monday. And tell you the truth, I'm not quite sure how this happened, but I ended up getting is generated a week before I was scheduled to get released our parole.
That is very unusual, and there's so many unusual things about your case. I mean, let's go back to the hypnosis thing, because even even though back then we you know, we didn't, we didn't know a lot of the things that we know now. But even back then, Walter Cronkite was on TV talking about how this hypnosis thing was a disaster and it didn't make any sense. Walter Cronkite were the most respected people in America at that time,
one of the most respected journalists of all time. So what was it like, Fred walking out into the fresh air after spending a longer time than most of the people that are listening to the show have even been alive, right, I mean, we have two people in the studio here who haven't been alive that long, thirty eight years.
Well, the first thing I did was hug my attorneys, thanked them very much, hugged Shacking and Dorn Dibbles and their family, and Victor Vizario, he was there. I hugged him, and once I did that, I started talking to the media. I see. That was the first thing I did start talking to the media after I hugged my friends and stuff. But to answer your question of what it was like, it was felt very strange to be walking without outside of prison, without no shackles on my feet. That felt
very strange. Every time I left prison, no matter to go to the hospital or whatever, to the court, whatever, they always had shackles on your feet. And once they actually said that you're free to go, and they put me in the in the in the like the whole itself for a little while, for like an hour to
finalize everything. So once everything was finalized and they opened it, uh the cell door, and I walked downstairs, and I actually walked downstairs to be outside, it felt very strange to be, like I said, to be walking without thrown shackles on my feet. I thought it was a dream. But then again it wasn't a dream, but it was kind of overwhelming. It was I was happy, I was somewhat cautious, and I was like in shocked to some degree. So it was it was a combination of all those things.
Yeah, I mean it's a it's a joyous uh, you know, just thinking about it and envisioning it is such a joyous thing. But I think that people get the idea that you know, everyone sees on the news the photographs or the video of someone like yourself coming out and there's all this joy and you have if you're fortunate enough like you were, to have some friends and family around and there's news media and there's cameras and maybe
the sun is shining. But there's another side to that too, right, I mean, you come out and you get nothing like most of the people. And this is crazy because for twenty five years I've been doing this work and anyone I talk to that's not aware. You know, when I meet somebody new and I'm talking about decision because I talk about it everywhere, the first thing they want to know is does the exonery you get paid? Like, just
tell me they get money? And I have to tell them that in most cases know and even in the cases when they do, it takes an unconscionably long time, years and years. This is something that the Interests Project has been deeply involved with. Recently, we just passed the compensation statute in Kansas. So it's a thirty first state to actually have compensation statues. There's still nineteen states that
have none, no compensation statues. And for you, Fred, coming out of prison after thirty eight years, having gone in as a sixteen year old kid, you know, trying to rebuild your life. I want to focus for a minute on those challenges, which I don't think get the type of attention that they deserve. And I think we as a society owe you and every man and woman that has been through this type of ordeal, we owe you more than a fresh start. I mean, we owe you a debt, and I think that as soon as you
get out that should start to be getting repaid. But that's not the way it works, and your case is a very strong example of that. So can you talk about the challenges? I mean, you haven't gotten any money yet right, Well.
My working on that right now, so it's still to be remained to be still being rocked on.
And how how long have you been out?
Not over year now, so it's been August eighth, so it's been.
Not over year, fifteen to sixteen months?
Fifteen months? Much like that?
Yeah, yeah, I can jump in here a little bit. I mean, this was this was this was the focus of my reporting for the last year, was to kind of answer that question, what's life like when you get out of prison? His his Fred's murder conviction was vacated, and you know, my editors suggested, why do we see what life's like in the first thirty days? And that
turned into what are we? Uh, why don't I check in with Fred from time to time over the course of a year, and and Fred can kind of fill in a lot of this stuff, but a lot of it was, you know, what what do you do to survive? You need you need housing, you need shelter, and you need some income to provide that shelter and food. Just
the base bear basics of survival. And that was what you know, Fred and I would kind of meet up and he would very graciously let me tag along with him as he talked to people about filling out job applications and trying to work on a resume, and watched him move from one apartment to another apartment, and I think, you know, maybe Fred, you talk a little bit about what those experiences.
Not really apartment, it's a room, but yeah, it's been kind of challenging when you've been in prison. What I long Obviously, technology has changed, and technology definitely has changed to the point where it's all new to me. I often make this phrase, It's like I've been reborn again and I have to learn everything all over again, including technology. So, and even how do you fill out job applications now? It's different compared to when I was back in the
seventies and stuff. A lot of stuff you got to fill out online now, as far as pretty much everything, housing application, job applications, everything. So the challenge of learning the technology is still the challenge. I'm still I know a little bit, but there's a whole lot more that I need to learn. And that's been kind of frustrating and exciting at the same time and aggravating. But at the same time, I've been reminding myself that hopefully, eventually
I get there. I just need to be patient with myself. But trying to survive out here when you've been in prison, that law, it's kind of difficult. Even maintaining a job. It's been kind of challenging. I'm still dealing with that.
Oh, what what part of Massachusetts are you living in now? Fred?
I'm living in Lowell, Massachusetts.
So that's right by Boston, right.
It's not it's it's it's by Boston, but I wouldn't call it right by. It's some distance, yes, but it is by.
Boston, about an hour north of Boston.
Okay. Well wow.
And when you don't drive, that's another thing. I really I haven't really started driving yet. And when you when you don't know how to drive, you're very limited. So I'm sort of restricted to a certain area and low and that's been kind of challenging. The puppet transportation here is not that great. It shuts down at seven o'clock in the evening, and that's been an issue that I
still struggle with today. So I need to learn how to drive in order to get more access to resources, jobs, housing, just to get around, I need to learn how to drive. And people been offering their help, and I've even been thinking about going through driving school. But it's just the thought of it is fine. It's just putting an action is, you know, trying to figure out when the right time is. Maybe there is no right time. I just need to just jump into it and do it. But all that's
been kind of challenging to me. To figure out what's important, what's not important, trying to prioritize things. That's been a big issue.
And I can tell just from the way you know you are and the way that you've dealt with this situation that I think anybody I know accept the exounre reason that I know actually would have crumbled under the weight of this unreal ordeal. So I know you're going to be successful, but I think all of us just need a little boost every once in a while. So I'm happy to say that that's something I'm going to
be able to to provide. So I do want to I want to ask you also, what if you can think of it, what its been your happiest moment since you got out. It's interesting I'm seeing I'm looking at a picture right now of you with the with the dibbles, with Dorin and Jackie. It's really sort of a funny picture. I mean, you have this giant smile on your face and the glasses on and they, you know, they're obviously smiling too, but I mean they're really white, these people are.
You know, It's really just an interesting, you know, photograph because it's just such an unusual, uh you know, combination of different backgrounds. But there's a lot of humanity in that, right, and there's a lot of beauty it. There's a lot of beauty in it. So, I mean, aside from the moment when you first stepped out, which must have been as much of a shock as anything else, what's been your happiest memory since in the fifteen sixteen months since you got out.
Well, I had a few vision my mother's grave that was very happy. But I would say right now, the skydiving.
Who you went skydiving?
I went skydiving twice?
Wow?
And I would say that. I said that because some guys that I was in prison with that end up passing away. In prison often, you know, we often talked about skydiving, and we watched some programs on Double GBH about skydiving and stuff like that, and we said to ourselves that they looked a lot of fun, you know, looked like fun, and I looked like the people was
enjoying themselves. So when I went skydiving, I was sort of like dedicating that moment to them because they sort of helped me change who I was as a person. They sort of helped me get back into my case and make me stay focused on that. So when I skydived the first time, it was just to honor them and for me to thank them and to show respect for them for what they did for me, because I at that time and I still do now, I consider
myself very lucky. So that was a very special moment the first time and the second time too because the second time when I went skydiving, I went with a lot of its honorary people, people that was in my somewhat in my situation. We all had our individual cases that end up that we end up in prison for, but we all was innocent, and so it was kind
of special to be with them that way. I felt, you know, that I was surrounded by people who actually knew what I was going through, and they didn't have no problem sharing what they was going through, what they went through in prison, and what they're dealing with now out here that you be shortage to share our experience and share their knowledge and help you each other. So
that was kind of special. And also when I jump out the plane the second time, it's sort of reminded me of life, like when you jump out the plane, there is no turning back. You came to say, well, I changed my mind. I want to go back. Once you jump out the plane, you and the elements, and so you got to face whatever there whatever fear you have, whatever there is, you got to face that. And it
sort of reminds me about my life right now. Whatever it is in life that I'm uncomfortable with, I have fear about, I have to try to face it and try to do the best I can. So to answer your question, the skydiving was the most important thing to me.
Well, that's an incredible story and very moving and very just amazing to think about. But I will say this, if you can jump out of a plane, you can definitely drive a car. And I'm gonna make you a deal right here in front of however many one hundred thousand people listening to this show. If you'll take your driver's course, wrongful conviction will get you a car. So that'll be our deal. You got to go make sure you can drive it. But if you can do it,
we'll get you a car, all right. And then then then me and Chris are coming and we're going to take a ride with you. So because we're you jump out of a plan, I'll get on the car with you. Behind a wheel, no problem.
Okay, okay, okay.
All right, we got a deal. We got a deal. We have one hundred thousand witnesses, so there you go. Well you know it's it's it's amazing, Fred, you know that. And I am going to put you.
To say something. It only take one witnesses to get someone convicted, never mind one hundred thousand.
Right, Well, there you go. So we have a tradition here on wrongful conviction, which is my favorite part of the show. I think it's everybody's favorite part of the show, which is that at the end of the show, which is now, I always, of course thank both of you, Chris and Fred for being here and sharing your your story and your wisdom Chris and experience. So I'm thanking you now. And then also at the end of the show, the featured part is where I get to stop talking
and do all the listening. And how this works is I just turned the microphone over to you for any closing thoughts that you have, if you have any, no pressure, but the microphone is yours, so let's start with you. Chris, anything any last words.
Well as always, like it's really fascinating for me to listen to Fred and was a real privilege as a reporter to get to, you know, spend time with him, have work in a place, and have editors that saw how important that was to do it. And it's again, I think Fred just went through something really awful and has these amazing insights about what his experience was. And it's not surprising that he drew the kind of support to him that he did because again he's able to
kind of reflect and share. He has a great sense of humor, and it's it's kind of brings me back to what it was like talking with him over these last many months. So happy to be here again.
Chris Barrell, thank you again for being here on Wrongful Conviction. And now over to you Fred for your last words and thoughts.
I want to thank you for the opportunity to speak on the podcast, and I want to thank Chris Barell for bugging me to do this. I'm just choking, but who come to me in the beginning when I first got out and presented the opportunity for him to follow me and talk about the person's life after the cameras go away. I'm sort of glad that he did that because it made me stay true to who I was, and it made me more focused about my situation and at the same time, it brought me out of my shell,
so to speak, too. And I want to say that people sometimes ask me about why am I not bitter about my situation. Don't get me wrong, I'm definitely upset about what happened to me. But at the same time, it's sort of made me aware of who I was at that time as a person, and it made me change who I was to who I am in right now today. And I must say I liked the person I become today. I didn't like myself back then, and
it made me think about those things. So in the process of sharing my story with Chris, it sort of made me realize that too. So I thank him for the opportunity to make me aware of that. And I won't thank my attorneys Lisa Kavanaugh and Jeffrey Harris, and my attorney who passed away, Emanuel Howard. I want to thank all three them for helping me get to where I'm at today, and my supporters too, the Debbil's Fred Smiles. So many people, so many people help me. I won't thank everybody for that.
Wow. Yeah, it just took me a minute to collect myself, but well, once again you've been listening to Wrongful Conviction today's episode featuring investigative journalist Chris Barrell and Fred Play, exonerated after thirty eight years in prison for a murder he didn't commit. Gentlemen, thank you again for being on the show. And I look forward to to taking a ride through Lowell with the with the music blast and loud, I hope with you two guys, and maybe we'll go
and pick up the dibbles along the way. So and that's a and that's a that's a bet. So thanks again and we'll keep the conversation moving.
Thank you, Okay, I appreciate it very much.
Thanks Fred, don't forget to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the NSIS project, and I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convey Go to andisonsproject dot org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is by three
Time Oscar nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at brown Ful Conviction podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one