#087 Jason Flom with Fred Clay

so many cases. The cops have a hunch because they're so smart at the scene, they have a hunch, and once they act on that hunch, they sort of developed tunnel vision and they take off marching in the wrong direction. And that happens in so many of these wrongful convictions. The opening, uh to sell door and I'll locked downstairs, And I actually walked downstairs to be outside. It felt very strange, um to be, like I said, to be

walking without no shackles on my feet. I thought it was a dream, But then again it wasn't a dream. This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction. This is Jason flam. I'm your host, and today we have an extraordinary episode. I mean, I am, I don't even I'm at a loss for words, but I'm going to introduce our guests right now. Fred Clay was wrongfully imprisoned at the age of sixteen and served thirty eight years for a murder he didn't commit. Fred welcome to the show.

Thank you very much and very on it. Appreciate it very much. I always say I'm I'm glad, I'm sorry you're here, but I'm glad you're here. And uh, I want to start off by apologizing to you on behalf of the human race and America and people and just there's nothing that can be said, but UM, let me just put that out there for starters and and with us today is Chris Burrell. Chris Burrell is an investigative reporter with the nonprofit New England Center for Investigative Reporting,

a w g b H News partner. UM who does work on well, he's worked on your case. You're telling your story and as many other as well as many others. So Chris, welcome, I'm glad you're here. Thanks very much. Glad to be here. Chris, how did you first come across this story and why did it impact you so much that you wanted to do an article about it. Yeah, well, I work for the New England Center for Investigative Reporting.

We've done several stories on wrongful conviction cases, UM and and specifically this issue of you know, what happens afterwards, because we do know there's a fair amount of media attention when this and somebody's sort of a long amount time for a crime that they that they didn't do and they're released and it's you know, a lot of applause and a lot of TV cameras. So I was there the day got out, as was a lot of other media. Um. But the question came up, well, what

is what is life really like? You know, once this kind of once the applause fades, what is what is what is a person's life really like? So initially, um, Fred was not that keen on me proffering this idea of following him around at different points over the course

of about a year. UM, but I met with him on a couple occasions and he seemed open to it, and so we just struck up this this intervals of trying to meet up and I wanted to see him in different situations, trying to navigate again the basic survival, UM, the blocks, the basic blocks of survival. How do you how do you find shelter, how do you how do you feed yourself? And so for the first few months he didn't he didn't have a job. He had a little bit of money from UH, from a go fund

me site, UM, and he had food stamps. UM. And his first job was working for UPS, which was very uneven work. He'd show up for a shift and they'd tell him, well, we've only got a couple of hours work instead of a full shift, and he'd walk home through the snow in the street because people didn't shove their sidewalks and we got a lot of snow up in northern Massachusetts. And UM, it wasn't until um, sometime late winter, early spring that he got this job precision

grinding aviation parts, grinding metal, and UM. He seemed really grateful to have that work. But as everybody knows, rent in most cities in America is really high, and the most he could afford UM was basically a room in a basement. And he, you know, said at least once that that room kind of reminded me reminded him of prison. All it had was a tiny window, uh, with not a whole lot of light coming into it. Um, and that was the best that his circumstance this gonna allow.

So Frederick, UM, this is such an insane story because even though we're in our eighth season of Wrongful Conviction, Um, we've told over seventies stories already. Uh. And just and I've been working for twenty five years in this struggle. I'm the founding board member of the Innocence Project. I thought I had heard everything until I heard your story. And you know, seeing the pictures of you as a sixteen year old a child really just scared out of

your mind. Um, faced with this nightmare situation, it almost it almost reminded me of Emmett Till or something, and it was just so it just hurts my heart. Um. But let's go back to that time. You were living in a foster home at that time, right, Yes, I was living a foster home. I was spaced in it by d y S. I had some juvenile cases and

I got convicted or too. I got sent this to like to d y S and he sent me to boys it to into center and a state if a little while, like month from there to program State A football six months, I believe, and they decided that I need to be in a fossil home. So I was in a fossil home at that time. And you were not a big guy either. You were like I mean, I remember reading that when this happened, you were like

five four about a hundred pounds. Um. You were obviously ill prepared for any type of scenario, like there's no one's prepared for it. But let's go back to it and Chris jump in any time. I mean, how did this happen? Why was why was Fred targeted for? This was the murder of a taxi driver in Massachusetts? Right, And can you give us a little background on that? Yeah, yeah, I mean the way I understand it is Fred was arrested just a few weeks after turning sixteen and charged

with the murder of a cab driver. The really crazy part of the story was that one of the another cab driver who saw three um young uh Africa American men get into a cab was said he was able to I D one of them, another the second person he couldn't I D. And the police use the practice they used back then of hypnotizing a witness in a case, believing that the brain functioned a lot like a videotape, and that you could put a witness under hypnosis and asked them to rewind to a certain date and time,

and suddenly your brain would see things that hadn't recalled before. And that was one of the pieces um that that led police to arrest and charge Fred and and ultimately for prosecutors to convict him. But this Fred, this witness, how did he come to identify you? Were you anywhere near the scene at the time? Did you know these times? I was not in a scene. I was in the fossil home. I was thinking in the bed. I really don't know how he became to identify me. I really

can't ask that question. He claims he saw, uh the picture of the cab, job of the cab in the front page of the Boston Globe, and he recognized the cab number. I guess one of his friends used to brought that cab and he thought, he's all the perpetrators get into the cab the previous night, and I guess he just went to the police station and try to

cooperate with the police. There was hypnosis involved. Um, I think he was showing my picture a few times, like four or five, six times, and when they hypnotized him, instead of him actually placing, you know, actually viewing the people, the perpetrator at the scene the crime, he sort of like mug shot sort of my my faith from the

mug shot was in his mind. Right, So yeah, I mean what we know that hypnosis Going back to what Chris was saying, hypnosis will make you see things you haven't seen before, but they will may not have any collection to reality. Right, That's the problemt I don't think. I don't think they hypnosi had anything to do with when someone shows you a photograph five or six times

that faces somewhat imprinted in your mind. Of course. I mean that's one thing we do know about the mind is if you keep getting repeated u image, the same image repeated over and over again, it's going to play tricks on your mind, and your mind will start to go to that place. And was this That's why I think what happened He just stude your mind played his mind played tricks on something. I realicate, I redicate answer that question how he picked me out? But he did

was there was this robbery at night. Yes, is four o'clock in the morning. Four o'clock in the morning, so it's pitch dark outside, right, And this guy supposed we saw the robbery, right, But we know how I mean. And we also know that the brain, when you witness a violent crime I wouldn't identification is notoriously unreliable in

the first place. Um, if somebody bust into the studio now and attacks on one of us, and then they put us in a lineup, there's almost just as much chance that someone who wasn't here will identify the correct perpetrator or not get the wrong perpetrator the same way that we will, which is a crazy thing. And people are listening going, that's not true, but it has been proven over and over again. But it's the brain goes crazy, so to speak, because of adrenaline and other factors when

you're in the presence when you're actually in danger. Right, So when you're the either the victim or when your witness to a violent crime, as this one was, we know that your your your senses are um, you know, altered because of the fact that you're just scared out of your brain literally. So um, and this was one of those cases, right, this was a shooting. Yeah, there's two.

I'll jump in here to help clarify this. So the witness we're talking about who was hypnotized by police, had claimed that he'd seen these um, these young African American males get into this cab. Then the cab goes to UM or allegedly goes to a housing project UM a little bit south of the city UM in Rosalindale. And then there was another witness that also had pretty serious question marks around how the police interacted with this witness.

And this other witness claimed that he did actually see the shooting out of a window of an apartment in the housing project. UM. What Fred's attorneys later found out and really stressed and trying to re engage with this case and and and prove that Fred didn't do it, was see that this witness was I think a teenager. He had pretty severe developmental um, you know, cognitive issues UM.

And that police furthermore told him and his family UM that if they testified against Fred UM, that they would be moved out of this project housing project which was mostly African American, into a housing project which was mostly white. And again this witness was white. Wow, So talk about coercion or you know, and isn't that a crazy thing

to Chris and Fred? Is that everyone, even the most casual TV watcher right who watched his crime shows, knows that you cannot bribe a witnes if you go to prison for bribing witness in America, right, but the government is able to offer the best bribe that there is. I mean, in this case, it was a new home. Right, It's almost like a game show. Here's a new home.

Just testify the way we want you to um. Or they can threaten you, or they can threaten you and they do that very often, will take your kids away, We'll lock you up for some prior thing whatever. Or they can also agree to vacate charges or reduce charges that they have against you. So it's it's amazing that the weapons that they have in there are so it's really not a fair fight whatsoever. But what were you gonna say? Ford? Um? Also, the witness that Christmas talking about,

they happened to rosin they are projects. This witness I sort of I didn't know him personally, but we've seen each other from time and time in the projects. So he was familiar with my face. That's another thing that was really that was really not really mentioned. Mentioned a

little bit, but it wasn't really focused on. So when someone recognized your face and they see your your picture in the in the photo of right, then they're not really picking out the perpetrated, they're picking out a familiar face. So just because he was fermiling my face, he sort of displaced me at the scene of crime based on the fact that he was for me with my face, not because he saw me at the scene the crime. So we have a couple of factors here that are

very common and wrong for convictions. We have police misconduct, we have wrong flight witness identification, two of those in fact, and and then it gets worse. Um, so you were were you at home when you were arrested? How did this all go down? And how long did you have to wait for trial? Who? Who was your assume you got a public defender? Can you fill in some of those blanks for us? Fred, Yes, I was at the

foster home when I got it. I was actually when I went I was on probation because I had some juvenile cases, so I I had some missues with the foster parent. I really didn't. She claims that our friend I ran away, but I never really ran away. I just you know, vanished from time and time and came back. But anyway, I showed up on Overmber fifteen through our house and I didn't know that, but she had previously

reported me for running. So when I showed up on November fifteen, she informed me that I can stay at night, but at the same time, um, she she didn't want me to do it the next morning. I had to

leave the next morning. So the next morning came and she told me I had to leave because she reported me running and she didn't want the police out are out, So I left, and I was on probation, so I went to probation officer and sort of told her about what was going on, and based on that, they sent me back to another facility that I was previously held that before, a juvenile facility, and I was there for a few football a little over a couple of weeks,

I believe, and to playing Colzic tuts. Came in one even and they went up to the main desk to talk to the council of work there and maybe about two minutes after that, they called my name and I went to the desk and they asked me my name. I told my name is Frederick Clay, and they told me they needed to speak with me. So they took me to like a little room to the off to the side, and in that room they informed me that

they was arrested me for murder. So I really didn't know anything about the murder until it actually they came there and arrest me for it. And my attorney at the time when I went to trial was Thomas Apprel. So it's kind of crazy how I was somewhat informed about the murder. How long were you in jail awaiting trial, because I'm assuming that there was either two years awaiting trial,

so that whole thing about it in the constitution. Arrested November seventy nine, and I didn't go to trial into right. That whole thing in the constitution about your right to a speedy trial. Um, we really don't see that very often in this country. It's kind of weird. I don't know what how that can be so routinely ignored or violated, but it is, and your case is sadly not a typical in that sense. So you're in jail for two years two years awaiting trial, and let's go to the trial.

Because um, it's always I think for our listeners and even for me an eye opener, uh, to hear how these things go, especially in a case as serious as this one where you were facing life in prison. Tell us what you can remember about the trial, for instance, did you think, um, if you can remember, and again, you were in prison for so long. I mean, it's

it's actually crazy. You went to prison at sixteen and you were in for thirty eight years, which means you were in prison for almost two and a half times as long as you had been alive, right, and your life experience as a sixteen year old, Let's face it, the first three or four years, we're not even really sentient beings, were kind of just stumbling around, eating animal crackers or doing whatever we're doing, right, and playing with toys and having I'm gonna read us a book and

hug us or if we're lucky. So you know, for you, your life experience was so brief before you entered the system, and you had already been in and out of the system. So um, here you are at trial, um, and did you, if you can recall, did you feel like when the jury went out that you were going to be convicted or did you still have hope that you did justice would be done. Well, I wasn't really sure that there

was a chance that I was gonna get convicted. I thought, once I don't understand and tell the truth, and so sort of present my case and and present the evidence that I actually cool that I was innocent, and have an elephant present my alibi. I thought, I was I might have a chance of being found not guilty. So I was I was hoping that I was going to be found not guilty. But at the back of my mind, according to my attorneys, you know, there was a possible

chance that I could get convicted. So I was positive, hopefully that I was going to get found out guilty. But at the same time, I was concerned that I will be found guilty. So and and just backtracking for a second, the witnesses against you were they white or black? Well, able them was black, I mean white, and one of them was black, but the one was black really didn't really really didn't really hurt me that much. But the

two name was the es they white? And the reason I raised that question is because we know from decades of experience, research studies, etcetera. That cross racial identifications are just notoriously unreliable, um, much more so than when people are, you know, trying to identify someone of their own race. UM.

I think there's a lot of reasons for that. We don't have to get into all of them, but it's worth knowing because everyone that's listening right now, as I always say on this, always a potential juror, and someday they may be faced with a situation like yours, where there will be I mean, there was no evidence against you,

so it was only the witness's word. And if it is a cross racial identification, and it doesn't matter whether that's why white person testifying against a black person, uh, Hispanic person testifying against a white person, whatever it might be, it's just not reliable and and and so your cases, it's important one to highlight that particular factor because again, the reason why I do the show for it is because I want to help to prevent these things from

happening to other people in the future, as I'm sure you do. I'm not sure if if there was a well known fact by one the cross racial identification issue, but it's a well known fact now right, and I'm glad you brought that up. So so the jury comes back and it had to be the worst, uh, the worst feeling in the world. Um, you were sentenced to life in prison, which is again a bizarre a natural life,

not just in life, a natural life. Life sort of means like a second degree life, but natural means the first degree life sentenced with with a chance of no parole, which means like a you go spend invest in your life in prison, you go and die in prison. And Chris, let's talk about that. I mean, I mean, what kind of a system do we have where we can sentence someone who was really a child and adolescent when this happened, a young teenager to life in prison. Yeah, I mean,

it's it is. It's just shocking. And you know, thankfully there were later, much later the Supreme Court decisions that that tried to undo some of that. So it did, at a very much later stage, did make Fred eligible for parole. But we're talking again decades later, Um, that there was some understanding of just how wrong that is that that obviously, to to charge someone at sixteen and put and put them to adult trial raises a lot

of really serious squtions. But then to um to make that same person um prone to being convicted and sentenced to life without any chance of parole is all the more um shocking. Yeah, just think about it, or judge telling you, a sixteen year kid that you are incapable of changing, so therefore you need to spend the rest of your life in an adults prison, you know, and

often think about that. And they took me out of a bad situation, and they put me in even a worse situation because a lot of people don't survive prison. And I was thinking about a lot of that stuff and how I was going to survive that. But I was going to end up being murdered, raped, killed, whatever. So just to have someone tell you at the age of sixteen that we think that you are in capable

of changing. And when you went to prison, um, this was you know, this was the reality, right, I mean, this was a very violent place and you were in amongst people who were much older than you, stronger, um, you know, and here you are like thrust into this unimaginable nightmare. How did you managed to survive as a young not a particularly big tough guy, but you know, a young, skinny guy in that situation, How did you manage to survive well? Personally? I just paid a tense

of to my surroundings. A lot of older gentlemans that was doing natural life sentence sort of took a liking to me, and they just sort of just gave me, just told me, uh, the way of prison life. Mind your business. If you see something, keep it to yourself, don't talk to corrections officers, trying to stay out of trouble, get into programs. Try to use that time to benefit me as a person, to change things about myself that I did not like, to uh, sort of use that

time to work on me as a human being. And they also let me. They also told me I had to figure out how to do the time and not let the time do me. And it took me quite a while to understand that, and so, like what you mean, due to time and not let the time do me.

So basically what they was telling me, just what I was telling you, is just try to use this bad experience and focus on the things that I don't do not like about myself and the things that I can change to make me feel good about myself and to make other people see me in a way that I want them to see me. So I had it was some it was a little bit of that, and it was just a little bit of me just figuring out who I can trust and who I can trust, and also not to put myself in a certain position to

have some of these bad things happened to me. Just you know, make sure that who along I'm dealing with, be upfront with them about my situation and just uh be aware of the emotives, you know. And then there was a sort of a hero emerged, if you could call it that, from this situation, a guy named Roosevelt Pickett really helped to pull you out of this right and and introduced you to a very unlikely character who became almost like I don't use too strong, but we're

almost like your savior, right, Um? And can you talk about that? Yeah, that whole situation so interesting to me. So can you talk about that a little bit. Well, Roosevelt Picket was he's an old gentleman. I think he was like in the sixties and I knew him at that time. I knew of about twelve years thirteen years, and he was also doing a life bit and he had he was he was walking the king so had an accident. He should do carriduty works and stuff like that.

So he fell off the roof and he should walk around with a game. So anyway out, I used to work and if I was in Bay State Prison at this time, and I was working downstairs on the first floor in the day room, and he lived on the first floor. And he was down there cooking in the in the day room one afternoon and I was I was down there doing my job and everything, and he was. So we started talking about business and stuff like that, and he asked me, did I have anybody that you know,

family members and friends that visit me? And I told him, uh not really, I had my great aunt. She visited me like every two years, three years a year, whenever she can find time to do it. So then he asked me if I was if I wanted somebody to visit me, like from a church and stuff like that, and I said, sure, why not. I've up in the opportunity to meet somebody from church and just have a friend to come visit me. So he put me, uh

in touch with um prison ministry. I think it was called candle like Ministries, And I had to fill out some forms and stuff like that, and I filled out the forms and he sent it in. And I'm not quite sure how long after that. Uh, then I met Reverend fresh Small. He came to visit me and I was back, and I think that was like in and once he came to Bay State to visit me. Um. We so our friendship developed and got stronger and stronger.

And the more he visited me, the more start talking about my case and and me as a person, and things I like and dislike and and I just take this interest. And so he helped me somewhat get out of prison. And then he spoke to his parishioners and asked if anybody would like to get involved in this, um you know, helping out, I guess, and you know, volunteering to make friends with someone on the inside. And it's interesting. People ask me that question a lot, and

I'm always trying to connect people as best I can. UM. And in fact, a software engineer named Dorin Dibble, which is sort of an unusual name, right instead of an interesting If I was writing a movie about your story, I would name the guy Dorin Dibble. UM. So Dorin Dibble shows up some sort of a sort of a very square looking white guy. Right, so that comes in out of nowhere. What was your reaction when you met

this guy? Well, he was funny, he was very smart, he was kind, He was very kind, he was generous, he was sincere, he was empathetic. Um, he told her, he told some jokes. I thought he was a very nice guy, and I thought, this is the kind of person that I need in my life to sort of help me take me out of my comfort zone, so to speak, because I wasn't really that social with in prison. So he sort of sort of brought me out of

my shell a little bit. So I thought he was a very nice person something that it is someone that I needed to have in my life to help me grow, um, socially anyway, you know, and in many other ways after the after that, to be exact, And how how important was that relationship to you? It was very important. Um. I mean how many people do you know will bring their their young small children in to see a person in prison that's not a family. So he became uh,

I know I used this phrase before. Um, he was a stranger in the beginning, but he became family to me, and and he's still family right now. So his friendship and him being part of my life was very very important then, and it's very important now. It's still in

my life right now. And Chris and the article that you wrote about the case, I was really moved by this quote from Mr Dibble where he said, and I'm quoting, one of the amazing things for me is given his circumstances we're talking life without parole, his resilience, determination, and his decency through all that. It's a model to me. He didn't hate the establishment. We're white, he didn't care. I'm getting the chills, uh, just reading that. And you

actually did the interview with him. I mean, can you share some insight into this guy because he really does emerge as a hero in this story. Yeah, no, it was, it is and was an incredible part of the of the whole story. And just sitting here honestly listening to Fred again, I really enjoyed every minute hanging out with Fred over the over the course of the last year.

And I'm guessing that listeners can kind of get a feel as to how Fred talks and that people are kind of drawn to that that the way he talks and understands things about this really awful experience he had he had to go through. And um, so Dorin Dibble and his wife, Jackie, and and his two kids. I met one of his kids who's now, you know, in his twenties and and I hung out with them over dinner that they invited Fred over, and I asked to come along back in July. And UM, yeah, Dorin and

his wife Jackie just um are really bighearted people. And um just showed up there in prison. You know, frequently during the year, like every few months, they would drive down and and go through. It's not easy to get into a prison. You gotta sit there and wait and get frisked down and go through metal detectors and wear the exactly the right clothing or they turn you away.

And um, you know they again they brought their little kids into kind of hang out friend and sit there and play cards, and just the whole dynamic and relationship that that was related to me really kind of me away. It's almost like the family that Fred couldn't have and now all of a suddenly has sort of an adoptive

family inside. And and you know, it was a long drive, um, and they would come every couple of months and there's one more quote, and I want to get back to the story because again this really touched me and I got the chills reading the last one. I'm going to get him again, Um, because Mr Dibble said, quote, we'd all piled back in the car when our visit was over, and it was just dead silence in the car, because that's where it really hit everybody. Oh, this is from

Jackie Dibble. Let me say when we started again and and Mrs Dibbel Jackie Dibble said, quote, we'd all piled back in the car when our visit was over, and it was just dead silence in the car because that's where it really hit everybody. We'd walk out of there under the barbed wire. We get to go home, and he doesn't, and it was just nobody would say anything

on the way home and end quote. And I've had that feeling so many times now, visiting people in and who I know are innocent, and then when I leave, um and that door slams behind and you can't take them with you. It's a horrible feeling. It's a it's a sick feeling actually, And Um, Chris is nodding his head because he knows, and you know it does drive me, uh, and I think all of us every day to try to do more to help people like yourself, Fred, because

it's if you've once you've experienced that. And I brought four people with me up to Sing Sing this weekend where we met many of the men who are stuck there, some of whom are innocent, some are not. UM. But you know, I would say that nine of the people that we met there don't belong there. You know, they've served their time, they may have made a mistake. UM. I'm I'm of the Brian Stevenson school. He's one of my heroes. And you know he said, I believe everyone

is better than the worst thing they've ever done. Um. You know, I think in our system, we over incarcerate to such an extreme degree, we overpunish. UM. The institutions that we have that are called correctional institutions are are not by and large, and all of it needs to change. And that's why it's so important that you're here, Fred to tell your story. So I really appreciate that, UM. And you two christ So, Fred tell us how this situation changed. Because you were sentenced to life in prison,

you had no hope to get out. You found this inner strength, this grace, this courage that always mystifies me and amazes me and makes me, you know, draws me to people like yourself because I get so much UM out of just talking to you and and uh spending time. And so how did you ultimately, I mean, we know how you survive because you explain that, But how did you get out? Because you're here now and that's a fantastic thing, and I know, and I want to talk

about the struggle of being out as well. That's what I what I call the second punishment. But how did that? Let's get to the happy stuff. How did you get out? But I got out on a new trial motion, um, they said, having off from the CPCs innocent program. She's my attorney, she was my attorney on our pill. We drafted and critique and finally finalized a new trial motion, and we followed that. I think when I was in Concrete Farm, UM, probably late two thousand sixteen, I believe. UM.

It took a while. But between my witness identification, the hypnosis, cross racial identification UM, somewhat mug shot exposure. Some polician posts that the detectives somewhat I mean obviously overlooked. It was a combination of all that stuff together that helped me get out of prison. Um also and not in two thousand and thirteen, I would say, late December two thousand thirteen, the juvenile life for a large change which gave juveniles and opportunities, juvenile is under the age of

eighteen an opportunity to see the parole board. So once that law changed, that law allowed me to see the parole board. So at that particular time, I was not I was still thinking about and preparing for my room thirt emotion, but I was also preparing for my parole hear me. So I end up going to parole May one, nineteen, two thousand and fifteen, I should say, and the results

of that I end up getting. I presented my case a parole board, stating that I was innocent, but at the same time taking responsibility for the crimes that I did do. For the juvenile issue, the cases that I had previous of me getting arrested for this murder case, I took responsibility for all that stuff, but I did not take responsibility for the current case that I was doing time for Whippus the murder, and I let them know that if I did do it, I would have

no problem taking responsibility to ment and guilt. But that's not the case. So I didn't. I did not admit to something I did not do. But at the same time, I was letting me know that prison, so you know, I mean by be being in prison, I was not the same person I was when I first went to prison. I was a different person sitting in front of them. So I just explained to him how different I was through programs and education and stuff like that. So basically I got up. I was going I was set to

get out on parole anyway. I was scheduled to get out on parole August twelve, but August twelfth was on a Saturday, so they pushed it to August was on Monday. And tell you the truth, I'm not christ sure how this happened, but I ended up getting is onerated a week before I was scheduled to get released on parole. That is very unusual. And there's so many unusual things

about your case. I mean, let's go back to the hypnosis thing, because even even though back then we you know, we didn't, we didn't know a lot of the things that we know now, but even back then, Walter Cronkite was on TV talking about how this hypnosis thing was a disaster and it didn't make any sense. Walter Cronkite were the most respected people in America at that time,

when the most respected journalists of all time. Um, So, what was it like, Fred walking out into the fresh air after spending a longer time than than most of the people that are listening to this show have even been alive, right, I mean, we have two people in the studio here who haven't been alive that long years. Well, the first thing I did was, UM, hugged my attorneys, thank them very much. UM hugged Jack and Enduring Dibbles and their family. And Victor Vasario, he was there. I

hugged him. And once I did that, I started talking to the media. So that was the first thing I did, start talking to the media, after I hugged my friends and stuff. But to answer your question what it was like, it was I felt very strange to be walking without outside of prison, without no shackles on my feet. That felt very strange. Every time I left prison, no matter to go to hospital, whatever, to the court, whatever, they

always had shackles on your feet. And once they actually said that you're free to go, and they put me in the in the like the whole itself for a little while, for like an hour to finalize everything. So once everything was finalized and they opened the cell door and I walked downstairs, and I actually walked downstairs to be outside, it felt very strange, um, to be, like I said, to be walking without throw chackles on my feet. I thought it was a dream. But then again it

wasn't a dream, but it was kind of overwhelming. It was I was happy, I was somewhat cautious, uh, and I was like then shocked to some degree. So it was there was a combination of all those things. Yeah, I mean it's a it's a joyous uh, you know, just thinking about it and visiting it's such a joyous thing.

But I think that um, people get the idea that, you know, if everyone sees on the me on the news, the photographs or the video of someone like yourself coming out, and there's all this joy and you have if you're if you're fortunate enough like you were to have some friends and family around, and there's news media and there's cameras and maybe the sun is shining. But there's another side to that too, right. I mean, you come out

and you get nothing like most of the people. And this is crazy because for twenty five years I've been doing this work and anyone I talked to that's not aware. You know. When I meet somebody new and I'm talking about this is because I talk about it everywhere, the first thing they want to know is does the exonore you get paid? Like, just tell me they get money? And I have to tell them that in most cases no, and even in the cases when they do, it takes

an unconscionably long time, years and years. Um. This is something that the Instance Project has been deeply involved with. Recently, we just passed the compensation statue in Kansas, so it's the thirty first state to actually have compensations. That is, there's still nineteen states that have none, no compensation statues. Um. And for you Fred, coming out of prison at the thirty eight years, having gone in as a sixteen year old kid, um, you know, trying to rebuild your life.

I want to focus for a minute on those challenges which I don't think get the type of attention that they deserve. And I think we as a society owe you and every man and woman that has been through this type of ordeal, we owe you more than a fresh start. I mean, we owe you a debt. And I think that as soon as you get out that should start to be getting repaid. But that's not the way it works, and your case is a very strong example of that. So can you talk about the the challenges?

I mean, have you haven't gotten any money yet? Right? Well, um my turns working on that right now, so it's still to be remained to be still being worked on. And how long How long have you been out? Not over year now, so it's been August eight, so it's been good over the year, fifteen sixteen months like that. Yeah, yeah,

I can jump in here a little bit. I mean, this was this was this was the focus of my reporting for the last year was to to kind of answer that question, what's life like when you get out of prison? His? His, his, Fred's murder conviction was vacated, and um, you know, my my editors suggested, why don't we see what life's like in the first thirty days?

And that turned into what are we uh, why don't I check in with Fred from time to time over the course of a year, and UM and Fred can kind of fill in a lot of stuff, but that a lot of it was you know, what, what do you do to survive? You need you need housing, you need shelter, and you need some in UM to provide that shelter and food, just the base bare basics of survival.

And that was what you know, Fred and I would kind of meet up and he would very graciously let me tag along with him as UM he talked to people about filling out job applications and trying to work in a resume and and watched him move from one apartment to another apartment. UM, and I think, you know, maybe Fred, you could talk a little bit about what those experiences. Not really a partners a room, but yeah, UM, it's it's been kind of challenging, UM, when you've been

a person what I long. Obviously technology has changed, and technology definitely has changed to the point where it's all new to me. UM often make this phrase, It's like I've been reborn again and I have to learn everything all over again, including technology. So and even how do you fill out job applications now it's different compared to

when I was back in the seventies and stuff. Does a lot of stuff we've got to fill out online now as far as pretty much everything, housing application, job applications, everything. So the challenge of learning the technology is still the challenge. Um. I'm still I know a little bit, but there's a whole lot more that I need to learn. And that's been kind of, um, frustrating and exciting at the same time and aggravating. But at the same time, I've been

reminded myself that hopefully, eventually I get there. I just need to be patient with myself. But trying to survive out here when you've been in prison that long, it's kind of difficult. Um, even maintaining a job. Uh's it's been kind of challenging. I'm still dealing with that. Oh what what What part of Massachusetts are you living in? Al fred I'm living in Lower Massachusetts. So that's right by Boston, right, Um, it's not, it's it's it's by Boston,

but I wouldn't call it right by it. It's some distance, yes, but it is by Boston, about an hour north of Boston. And when you don't drive, that's another thing. I really I haven't really started driving yet and when you when you don't know how to drive, you're very limited. So I'm sort of restricted to a certain area and low and that's been kind of challenging. The public transportation here is not that great. It's shuts down at seven o'clock in the evening, and that's been an issue that I

still struggle with today. So I need to learn how to drive in order to get more access to resources, jobs, housing, just to get around. I need to learn how to drive. And people been offering their help, and I've even been thinking about going through driving school, but it's just the thought of it is fine. It's just putting an action, is you know, trying to figure out when the right time is. Maybe there is an all right time and I just need to just jump into it and do it.

But all that's been kind of challenging to me figure out what's important, what's not important, trying to prioritize things. That's been a big issue. And I can tell just from the way you know you are and the way that you've dealt with this situation that I think anybody I know, except the Xiason I know, actually would have crumbled under the weight of this um unreal ordeal. Um, so I know you're going to be successful, but I think all of us just need a little boost every

once in a while. So I'm happy to say that. Um, that's something I'm gonna be able to to to provide. So UM, I do want to um, I want to ask you also, what if you can think of it, what's been your happiest moment, uh since you got out. It's interesting I'm seeing I'm looking at a picture right now if you with the with the dibbls um with Dorn and Jackie. It's really sort of a funny picture. I mean, you have this giant smile on your face and uh, the glasses on and and they you know,

there's obviously smiling too. But I mean they're really white, these people are. You know. It's really just an interesting, you know, uh photograph because the it's just such an unusual uh you know, a combination of different backgrounds and but but it's there's a lot of humanity in that right, and there's a lot of beauty. There's a lot of beauty in it. So, um, I mean, aside from the moment when you first stepped out, which must have been

as much of a shock as anything else. What's been your happiest memory since in the fifteen sixty months since you got out. Well, it's there's a few visiting my mother's grave that was very happy. But I would say right now, the skydiving. M hm, you went skydiving. I went skydiving twice, And I would say that. I said that because some guys that I was in prison with

that end up passing away. In prison often, you know, we often talked about skydiving and and we watched some programs on on double G B H about skydiving and stuff like that, and we said to ourselves that they look a lot of fun, you know, look like fun and look like the people was enjoying themselves. So when I went skydiving, I was sort of like dedicating that moment to them because they sort of helped me change who I was as a person. They sort of helped me get back into my case and make me stay

focused on that. So, um, when I sky dived the first time, it was just to honor them and for me to thank them and to show respect for them for what they did for me, because at that time and I still do now, I consider myself very lucky. So that was a very especial moment the first time. In the second time too, because the second time when I went skydiving, I went with a lot of exoter people,

people that was in my someone in my situation. We all had our individual cases that end up that we end up in prison for what we always innocent, and so it was kind of special to be with them

that way. I felt, you know, that I was surrounded by people who actually knew what I was going through, and they didn't have no problem sharing what they was going through, what they went through in prison and what they're dealing with now out here that you be short of to share our experience and share their knowledge and helping each other. So that was kind of special. And also, um, when I jump out the plane a second time, it's sort of reminded me of life. When you jump out

the plane, there is no turning back. You came to say, well, I changed my mind, I want to go back. Once you jump out the plane, you you and the elements, and so you've got to face whatever there whatever whatever fear you have, whatever there is, you've got to face that. And it sort of reminds me about my life right now, whatever it is in life that I'm uncomfortable with I have feel about I have to try to face it

and try to do the best I can. So to answer your question, the sky diving was the most important thing to me, Well, that's an incredible uh story and very moving and very just amazing to think about. But I will say this, if you can jump out of a plane, you can definitely only drive a car. And I'm gonna make you a deal right here in front of however many hundred thousand people listening to this show. If you'll take your driver's course wrongful conviction will get

you a car. So that'll be our deal. Um, you gotta go make sure you can drive it. But if you can do it, we'll get you a car, all right. And then then then me and Chris are coming and we're gonna take a ride with you. So because we're you jump out of a plane, I'm good end the car with you behind a wheel, no problem. Okay, okay, okay, all right, we gotta deal. We gotta deal. We have

a hundred thousand witnesses, So there you go. Um, well you know it's it's it's amazing, Fred, you know that, um um, And I am going to put that to to say something, I want to take one witnesses to get someone convicted, never mind hundred thousand. Right there you go. So, um, we have a tradition here on wrongful conviction, which is

my favorite part of the show. I think it's everybody's favorite part of the show, which is that at the end of the show, which is now, I always, of course thank both of you, Um, Chris and Fred for being here and sharing your your story and and your wisdom Chris and experience. UM, so I'm thanking you now. And then also at the end of the show, the featured part is where I get to stop talking and

do all the listening. And what how this works is I just turned the microphone over to you for any closing thoughts that you have if you have any no pressure, Um, but the microphone is yours, so let's start with you. Chris, UM anything any last words, well as as always like it's really fascinating for me to to listen to Fred and UM was the real privilege as a reporter to get to Um, you know, spend time with him and have work in a place and have editors that that

saw how important that was to do it. And UM Um, it's again. I think Fred Um just went through something really awful and has these amazing insights about what his experience was. And it's not surprising that he drew Um the kind of support to him that he did, because again, he's able to kind of reflect and share. He is a great sense of humor and um it's uh. It's kind of brings me back to what it was like talking with him over over these last many months. So

happy to be here again. Chris Barrel, thank you again for being here on Wrongful Conviction, And now over to you Fred for your last words and thoughts. I want to thank you for the opportunity to speak on the podcast, and I want to thank for Brell for bugging me to do this. I'm just joking, but who come to me in the beginning when I first got out and presented the opportunity for him to follow me and talk

about the the person's life after the cameras go away. Um. I'm sort of glad that he did not, because it made me stay true to who I was, and it made me more focused about my situation and at the same time it brought me out of my show so to speak to and I want to say that people sometimes asked me about why am I not better about my situation? Um, don't get me wrong, I'm definitely upset

about what happened to me. But at the same time, it's sort of made me aware of who I was at that time as a person, and it made me change who I was to who I may or right now today. And I must say I like the person I've become today. I didn't like myself back then, and it made me think about those things. So in the process of sharing my my story with Chris is sort of made me realize that too. So I thank him

for the opportunity to make me aware of that. And I won't thank my attorney's lift Lisa Kavanaugh and Jeffrey Harris, and my attorney who passed away, Emmanuel Howard. I want to thank or trade him for helping me get to where I'm at today. And my supporters to the devils fresh Smalls. These are so many people, so many people help me. I won't thank everybody for that. Yeah, I just took me a minute to collect myself. But um, well,

once again you've been listening to Wrongful Conviction. Today's episode featuring investigative journalist Chris Barrell and Fred Play exonerated it after thirty eight years in prison for a murder he didn't commit. Gentlemen, thank you again for being on the show. Um and uh, I look forward to um to to take a ride through Lole with the with the music last and loud, I hope with YouTube guys, and maybe we'll go and pick up the Divils along the way. So um, and that's a and that's a that's a

bet so um. Thanks again and uh, we'll keep the conversation moving. Thank you, Okay, I appreciate it very much. Thanks Fred, don't forget to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project and I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future wrong for con actions. Go to Innocence Project dot org to learn how to donate

and get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wardis. The music in the show is by three time Oscar nomine composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction. Podcast rang Full Conviction with Jason Flam is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one