#078 Jason Flom with Ndaba Mandela

was still in jail. And then the third one was my father. So the first was a daughter, son's son, daughter, and my father gave birth to four boys, and I am the second son. And so when my grandfather came out of jail, he basically sent my parents to university because they never had the opportunity to go to university while he was a whale. And so when he sent them to university, he didn't want them to also worry about raising me at the same time, so he took

me in when he sent my parents to university. I was about eleven years old at that time, and so I you know, from the time I was eleven years old, I grew up with my grandfather.

They were trying to break him down mentally, to say, Madiba, you're an old man. Now denounce the movement of the liberation movement, denounce your comrades, denounce your party, and lived the rest of your life in this luxury and enjoy your family and your grandkids. But of course we know that that didn't work out right. So when we got there, it was a beautiful house. There was a swimming pool. I never had a swimming pool, right. We watched a

never ending story. There was a chef. We met the man, of course, and he was very warm and was so happy to meet every one of us. So looking at that, I was like, wow, this is a beautiful house. You know, I would like to have a house like this one day. And so, you know, unlike most kids growing up thinking I want to be a lawyer, I want to be a doctor, I said when I grew up, I want to go to jail.

And anyone who's you know, even a casual student of the history, I recommend that they go when they get the chance, well to South Africa for starters, but if you get a chance to visit Robin Ilan, it's not an experience that anyone will ever forget. He was locked up for almost three decades.

Of course it's forwards and backwards and one step and two steps in the whole thing, and even in America now. But so, how did his experience from your perspective, shape him, and how did it shape you? And what are your what are your views now on criminal justice reform in in Africa, in the world.

was a soldier fighting against the system. You know, he made sure that he instilled certain values in me to become a leader. And you know, one thing he said to me, which I'll never forget, is that, Dabba, you're my grandma, so therefore people will look at you as a leader. Therefore you must get the best marks in class. And of course at that time, I was just an adolescent. I was like granddad, Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, that's

too much pressure. I just want to get by. You know, I was a kid much like my grandfather, rebel, you know, sitting at the back of the class, very naughty. You hardly did my homework, pe shooting, you know, the girls, you know, that kind of thing. But of course, as you grow up, you know a lot, a lot of the time, you don't want to be treated as a special kid or the special someone. You just want to be a normal kid. And one of the things you also,

you know, instilled with me was humility. It was very important to him. He said, Dabbah, you must never drive a Jaguar because people will know you have money. And as a leader, it's important that you are seen as one of the community. As part of the community, you understand even if you have more money than them or have more access to them, But when you are socializing, there must not be any sort of sense that you are more important or you should be treated in any

other different way. So for me, it's the same thing when you talk about the criminal justice system or any sort of justice system, is how do we treat people with the same equality, right, whether you're black, whether you're white, whether you're male or female. Right, And the laws that we have, of course standing from aparthdate segregation laws, similar

to the Jim Crow laws. Right, when you talk about people who are trying to pretty much just live on an equal footing, right, that is really the struggle were that were that they were fighting against. And that is the same struggle when you talk about the justice system, because the laws that apply to black people who are poor, who are marginalized are not the same as the laws that apply to white people who have access, who are

wealthy or well off. Right, you know, I was very inspired to be at the event last week in d C the Criminal the Center, Southern Center for Human Rights. That's right, and it was the Frederick Douglas Awards ceremony, which, of course well know Frederick Douglas is one of the

most powerful leaders evolutionists, you know. And for me, it's really about making sure that people have first of all, education to understand what their rights are right and be able once you understand his rights, to be able to push right. You know, you have right for legal represent you know, you have the right to express what it is and not be afraid so to speak, all right,

And that's really for me. The importance is how do we make sure that we live in a society where everybody is treated the same, regardless of your race or your sex.

all of this. I mean, it's so odd that we still have to have this conversation today, right, but we do, and it's probably more, you know, more poignant at this moment than it would have been at almost any other time in recent history. Speaking as an American, of course, but there are these parallels. And in America, everyone knows you have the right to an attorney. Is it the

same thing in Africa? And one thing I tell in my listeners as often as I can is if you are arrested for something you didn't do, or someone that you love is arrested for something they didn't do, all you're supposed to say. All you should say is this is my name, this is my address, and I want a lawyer because at that point they have to stop intarrogeting.

You know, I don't know how it works in South Africa, but here people, innocent people waive those rights because they don't think they have anything to hide, and they think, well, if I just cooperate, then I can go home. And they want to be helpful generally, right, people want to help the police, They want to be good citizens, they want to be Yes, yes, it's a paradox, but how does it work in South Africa? I mean, ironically, I think we have a much higher incarceration rate than you

do now, especially for people of color. But in South Africa, is it a similar system? Are you entitled to an attorney? And if so, when and how does it?

criminal case. He was accused wrongfully of raping a young girl who was under the age, right, and you know, it was a very you can imagine, rape is a very sensitive case, right, And my brother was acquitted because obviously he did not commit the rape. So it was some sort of a witch hunt that we didn't really understand where it came from. But that said, yes, everybody's afforded lawyer. Otherwise you go with the state lawyer.

It's expensive, even if that's where you're coming from. It's you know, it's it's imperfect. Even in a perfect system, it would be imperfect. Right, it's inhumane. But also you know the conversation I have with people who are pro death penalty, I say to them, and I had this conversation recently. I was giving a talk at the New School and one guy came up afterwards and he said, well, you know, I'm in favor of the death penalty. And I said, okay, how many innocent people is it okay

to execute? What percentage? He says, no, no, no, you can't execute it. I said, okay, Well, then you're talking out of both sides of your mouth, because we know the system isn't perfect. You know, the system's imperfect, even if everyone is an honest actor in the system and doing the best job that they can and and and everything is moving through the way it's supposed to, which it doesn't and it can't and it never will. We can make it better, but will never make it perfect.

You're still going to execute a certain percentage of inness in people. So that's where it all breaks down. It should break down for everyone. But do you still have the death penalty?

understand what I'm saying. So that was a very key thing that we did in our country was to abolish the death the death penalty completely.

of his first time offense. He was selling I think a small quantity of drugs from inside of his own home too adults. Right, there was no no violence, no threat of nothing else. Right, But it turned out he was in a school zone, right, but he was inside of his own house.

What about the drug laws is it? Do you treat it the same way that we do so harshly.

Was her first time offender, second time of funder, a third time offender, So you have to really look at all the different mitigating factors to actually come up with

the right sentencing. And in South Africa, I would say it's pretty fair because you know, looking at you know, when we achieved independence in nineteen ninety four, there were even before ninety four we had the Truth and Reconciation Commission right where we basically gave amnesty to perpetrators of violence against the victims if they were coming to the table to disclose everything that had happened. So if you come up and you say exactly what happened, be very honest.

Who were you with, what made you do it? Et cetera et cetera. And you would be literally sitting in front of the victims of those people that you perpetrated against. They would give you amnesty. So for us, I think personally that the system in Slavica are currently is not as harsh as that of America. For example, you know, we met a gentleman last week at the event. I

forget his name now, but that gentleman. You know what struck me was that he received twenty three years, which is the equivalent of two life sentences, for stealing goods of five hundred and fifty dollars, a first time offender, a man with a college degree.

the United States Senate, and I brought with me. One of the people I brought with me was federal Judge Castillo, who was the chairman vice chairman of the US Sentencing Commission, and he talked about how he was given this most profound responsibility, which is to sentence another human being to prison, and then the Congress took all that power away from him because they establish these mandatory sentencing laws, which we have here now, so that if someone gets picked up

with drugs, they just look at the chart. Here's how much drugs it was, here's the thing abobouve and then you get that much time and the judge has no power to judge. The jury says guilty, and off you go, according to the chart. But in almost all other types

of crimes, when there's no mandatory sentence involved. They look at the other factors as they do in South Africa, right, and they say, well, your childhood was this, or you were or you're disabled in such way, or you have an experience of this, or your positive contributed positively to society in certain ways, and those things are mitigating factors and go into the sentence that the judge then decides on. So judges, of course hate these mandatory sentencing laws because

they can't do their jobs. So there's you know, I've been on the board of Families Against Mandatory Minimums for twenty five years now famm dot Org. I hope people will go and look, because they're doing the most important work in eliminating these crazy sentencing draconian sentencing policies that send people to prison for these horrendous amounts of time for nonviolent first offenses. It's just nuts. And I don't

know why we do that to our own citizens. Every one of these people is a child of someone, a brother, a sister, a mother. They know they it's like you're ripping these communities and part and of course it affects people of color disproportionately. That goes without saying and I'm assuming that's probably still true in South Africa even to this day.

very easy to bribe a cop. It's very easy to bribe a cop. You don't have to have a lot of money. You can literally bribe a cop with equivalent of ten dollars, you know, to get away with drinking under the influence, for example. You know, that's how easy it is, and that's that's generally the the the thing across the continent of Africa. But I don't I don't see that happening here in America. I see the cops really,

you know, being hardcore. I think my perception anyway, to bribe a cop for do you are, you'd have to play him like a thousand or five thousand dollars something like that, right.

jobs because they wanted to protect society. And you know that holds true for the judges and many of the prosecutors as well. There are some bad ones, though, and the bad ones, if you have the misfortune to run across one of those, your life can be turned upside down in an instant. And we know too many of those stories. And it's really Lenny Singleton was one, and of course you met John Huffington when you were there

as well, who's been on the show. So it's sort of thirty two years on death row for murders to murders that they knew he didn't commit. And you know, he's an amazing, amazing guy. He had that great saying right when somebody we were talking to him and somebody said, aren't you bitter? And he says, no, man, he goes, that's why the rearview mirror is small and the windshield is big. And I was like, oh, man, I love that. He must have read some of your grandpa's books like something,

because you know, that's that's channeling that spirit. Right, So if you could wave a magic wand and you know, obviously there's so much going on in South Africa beyond

the criminal justice system. You know, we're we're here with the guys from bet Paw, who is an organization that's devoted to trying to save the rhinos and the elephants, because you know, you're facing an existential crisis there with the possible extinction within a decade of the most iconic animals in the world and what that will mean in so many it's there's so many terrible consequences of that, right, I mean, it hurts, it hurts my heart. But also

with tourism and everything else. So there's a lot of issues that you're dealing with. And I know you're very active in you know, in the affairs of the country, and you love your country. I'm looking forward to visiting

you over there to huh. And but if you could wave a magic wand at the criminal justice system and make it, you know, remake it in a way that was more consistent with your own values vision, if it was you know, again drawing from the lessons of you know, your grandfather, the great hero, what would it look like and what would you do? Because maybe you'll have the opportunity, I hope, so.

large part of that is the poverty. You know, if you're able, my one would be to make sure that people have education, get rid of poverty, because once you get rid of poverty and people have education, half the people who are in jail will not be in jail. If not more, if not more, so, let us deal with the fundamental issue at hand. That is the fundamental issue for me. That's why I would wave my.

we have to deal with these problems on every level. Ironically, it is a cycle, right, because we know that in America, the sociologists that have studied this issue have come to the conclusion, which is probably not a shock, that the number one determining factor of whether a child will end up in prison eventually is whether they've had a parent in prison. And so we have to break that cycle, and we have to attack it on both fronts. We have to reverse mass incarceration and let these people out

who are not any threat to society. We have to hear reform the bail system. I'm curious to know how that works in South Africa as well. That's the next thing I want to talk to you about. And we have to get rid of these mandatory sensing laws that lock these people up for these insane periods of time. You know, the great Brian Stevenson. Have you met Brian. You'll have the privilege at some point and he'll have

the privilege of meeting you. I hope so. Brian Stevenson is a great hero of mine, and he has a wonderful expression where he says, I believe everyone is better than the worst thing they've ever done. And it's true.

So it's an economic engine, right right, which feeds the rich people at the expense of the poor, and then we end up in this vicious cycle, like I said, which takes us right back to you know, the impact that it has on the families and the communities of these people who are again mostly people of color, who are being taken away from that because of transgressions that they're and I consider myself one of the lucky ones because I grew up in a you know, in an

upper middle class environment where I was not subjected to the same type of treatment. So so what about That's one topic I do want to cover is bail. How does it work in South Africa? Because here we have a crazy system where if you're arrested and you're charged with shoplifting or jumping a turnstyle, or drinking a beer in public, whatever might be, bail might be said at two hundred and fifty dollars or one thousand dollars or whatever. It is small amount, but if you don't have that money,

you're just staying in jail until your trial. That could be weeks or months or even years. And what we should be doing, of course, is sending people home to their family, to their job, to their church, whatever they're doing, and then come back and here's your date to come back, and we'll see you in court and then we figure this out and that's it. But that's not the way it works here. We have almost a half a million people in jail in America while we're sitting here, just

because they're too poor to post their own bail. So we have two separate systems of justice here, one if you're rich and one if you're poor. That's a violation of the sixth Amendment and the fourteenth Amendment, but we're not going to get into that now. It's not a constitutional law class. However, how does it work in South Africa? Do you have a similar arrangement there?

continue your job, you know. Because it should be innocent until proven guilty, But the minute you are accused, for example, of rape, most people automatically assume that you are guilty. You know, and I have a personal experience to this because my younger brother was actually accused of rape. Now, the minute you're accused of rape, and we know this.

It's one of the most sensitive crimes is the minute you're accused of rape, most people automatically assume that you are guilty or will side with the female without knowing any you know, information about how it took place, where it took place, any information whatsoever. Just because you were accused of rape, he must be built. Why would the woman accuse him, you know, out of nowhere for rape, you know. But they don't even know what the situation.

They don't even know the relationship of these people, right, and that's one of the worst sort of crimes out there, right, to be honest, it's one of the worst. So, yeah, bail is pretty much works the same.

even be doing it on a video screen. They may do it in a group. People aren't aware of this until they get caught in it. But man, once you get caught in it just gets worse and worse. And it's exactly as you describe, because then your life gets significantly worse because most of these people, if they can't afford bail, it's because they're living paycheck to paycheck. And now your job is going away, your apartment, you're going to lose that if you have one, you could lose custody.

the United States to visit prisons in Western Europe. In some of the countries in Western Europe, like Germany, the prisons are designed for the purpose of rehabilitation, and their prisoners are treated humanly, do with respect. The same is true in Scandinavia, where they're treated, you know, in a way where it's basically a philosophy of hey, you guys are going to come out one day, you're going to be our next door neighbors. That's how the guards approach it.

The guards have to study for two years, they have to get degrees in psychology. It's amazing, right, And as a result, those countries have much lower recidivism rates than we do. They're allowed out for furloughs and things like that to go work, and even before they're release they

go out to look for jobs and things like that. Yeah, I mean, so the good news is we now have delegations from our corrections system institutions, some political leaders going and visiting and seeing how it can be done there. There's some movement. They have a long way to go, but basically our system here is designed for punishment, not rehabilitation, and some of the conditions in the jails and prisons are absolutely brutal.

that occurs inside the inside the prisoner is heavy. You know, there's gangs obviously in prison, and there's one of the gangs in South Africa that actually specialize in violence and systematically you know, raping and stealing fear in other prisoners.

There's also the amount of corruption because of poverty. You know, prisoners are able to bribe the wardens to the point where if a adolescent right juvenile, you can pay the warden to say, hey, I want that young boy to come to myself tonight and they can have his way have his way. I'll tell you about one of the I studied criminology, and there was a gentleman I forget his name now, but he had such a crazy story.

He was actually a general right in the in the in the prison, so he was one of the most ruthless shit persons. He even had a way of how to attack and kill somebody that he had to kill, you know, he used a pen, you chop and a pen. He'd go for the neck, go for the eye, you know. But one day, he said, when everything switched for him, is that when he witnessed a young boy hardly sixteen years old, got gang raped by about ten guys and was on the floor, bleeding, crying, just completely in shambles.

And he showed his kid and he said to the kid, do something for yourself. And the kid said, I can't see, I can't feel. What can I do? And that touched them so deeply that he actually decided that he's going to change from becoming a general and actually expose the

corruption that was happening in jail. And so he spoke to people outside the jail, he smuggled in cameras into the jail right and exposed the rape, exposed the criminal activities that the wardens were actually getting involved in, to the point where he even got a pardon from the

from the president of our country. And he ended up marrying his lawyer, which was a white woman and he was a black guy, because of what he had witnessed of this sort of gang rape of this young boy that had come into into the into the cells, you know, So the conditions are horrific, The conditions are disturbing, to be honest with you, when I visited my you know,

in jail cigarette our currency. Cigarettes are currency people smuggling anything and everything, as you can imagine, right, But more so it's the corruption of the actual system because the wardens themselves part of that corruption system that has been entrenched over decades, you understand, over decades. So basically, with money, you can do anything you want to do. If you have money, you can live like you are living in the normal apartment in mittm Manhattan pretty much.

and his story is amazing. I'll show you the podcast that Peluco is on and now he's about on Vergi of becoming a lawyer and he's just i think just joined on some one of the boards of Amnesty. I mean, he's doing amazing, amazing things and helping the youth over there. What a great guy. So anyway, we have a tradition here on wrongful conviction which I'm going to share with you now. And it's actually my favorite part of the show.

Probably a lot of people in the audience would agree, But anyway, this is the part of the show where our featured, our honored guest gets the free reign of the microphone. What I do is I give you my thanks, and thank the audience and our producers as well for being here and sharing your thoughts and your wisdom, and thank everyone for listening. And now for the last part of the show, I just like to turn it over to you for any closing thoughts you have on anything at all.

in our society. Go on other days where your judges, your lawyers or doctors are the most influential people on society. These days it's your musicians, it is your actors, you entertainers who are the most influential people on the young people right, And those people are not always cognizant of the influence and the sort of role model position that they hold in society, and so they don't actually take it to consideration right, and they may be careless with it.

So I would like to say that each and every single one of us has opportunity to mentor a young person, to make sure that young person can deal with whatever challenges that they face, even if it is just helping that young person with doing their homework, finding out how they dare was finding out how they weak was what

you can help them with. You know, there are so many young people out there who parents are in jail, who grow up without a father, without a mother, you know, who don't value themselves in society, and they become easy prey to gangsterism and being recruited by the thugs in society.

So I want to say to the people out there that you know, if you take just one hour a week to sit to the young person, to mentor a young person, and you do that one hour week that is nothing on a Saturday or a Sunday, to sit with the young person to mentor that person, think about the positive effect and the value that that young person will have to know that there's somebody out there who cares for them, who will spend the time, because time is just as important as money, to be with that person,

to listen to them, to give them guidance. For me, we all need to go out there and try to be good mentors in society. One young person, that is all. It takes one hour week, you can make a much better society.

nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flahm is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number One.