#075 Jason Flom with Sadhguru

should do the right thing. And that's why, even though I was dealing with corros people, I wasn't going to brave anyone to get me out of prison because I wouldn't live with the fact that I braved my way out of my wife's death. I'm not innocent to proven guilty. I'm guilty until I proved my innocence. And that's absolutely what happened to me. Our system. Since I've been out ten years, it's coming little ways, but it's still broken, a totally little trust in humanity after what happened to me.

This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction. With Jason Flam Today I have that's me, But today I have an extraordinary treat for me and for you the audience. UM, my guest today is soad Garu. And sad Garu is in internationally renowned yogi and mystic teacher of meditation, a New York Times bestselling author, and a man who has done fantastic work in prisons all over the world, teaching

meditation and enlightenment to people, um who most needed. I think you could say, so soth Guru, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me here. So this is so exciting because the idea of being able to explore this aspect of the mind and the you know, the mind inside the prison and how to transcend these most terrible circumstances which I've heard you talk about in videos, It's something that I think can help people both on the inside and the outside. Family members as well, but everybody.

So I'm really interested in knowing how you how you got started first of all, on this journey, and even more so, how you became interested and involved in taking this practice inside the prison walls. So this is almost eight years ago, I think twenty eight years ago, there was a ladies club in climate or city where we are located now, and they invited me to speak in that ladies club. This is, you know, a group of

maybe two hundred very elite women of the town. So I was talking to them and just outside their club building there's a nice tree. We were sitting under the tree and I was speaking to them. Then I saw this big wall which is nearly twenty feet tall wall. I looked at the wall and said, why it's such a big wall here, And the fantastic thing is none of them new. Then I just inquired with the volunteers that were around me. They said, this is the prison. It is in the heart of the city and there's

a prison. These ladies that club, the you know, one part of their club is touching the wall and they don't know it's a prison. And then I discovered the road, the main road in the city is called Jail Road. Jail Yes. Then I said, I would like to meet those people who are on the other side of the wall. I would like to do something with them. I would like to see who are they. Then we discovered the superintendent of the prison, where somebody was known to me.

Then I tried to put an application saying that I would like to come and do something. So you're breaking into the prison. Yes, breaking into the prison is not easy. It took me over two years to get inside. I did not have the qualifications. And what was your application when you were saying that I want to go inside? Because because I said I would like to do something with this prisoners and see who they are? Then I discovered there were over users inside. I said, fourteen hundred people.

What are there for? It doesn't matter. My work is with human beings. It doesn't matter where they are, So let's go. So when I went inside or and I tried to get inside, they put me through some three interviews, but that I am fit enough to go to the prison or not. And they've said that the said group. Don't waste your time here these guys. You just can't do anything with them. Every Sunday some Christian priest comes. All they do is mischief, and Friday some Islamic guys

are coming. No good and another festival days and other things. The Hindu people are coming. It's no good nothing. You can't teach them anything, you can't do anything with them. All they understand is there's beating punishment. This all you

don't waste your time here. Well, let me ask you this prison was this considered a maximum security prison where it is, and so the people there are mostly in for murder or nearly nearly probably six hundred seven hundred them of them out for murder, but largely long term prisoners. Long term means in India, anything over eight years is considered long term prison. So I said, give me a chance, let me just talk to them. It took me a little over two years to convince them that they should

let me in. So when we went in, there were twelve wards. You know, in each ward there is something like So we picked a ward which had over two prisoners, the largest ward, and this is uh, everybody has come there for life imprisonment. This means they have done either murder or more. So I said, let me do this. So they put full security armed police. Said take them out. They're not going to harm me anything. Just take them out. It's not a problem. They said, no, we cannot do that. Anyway,

There were some policemen. Then I asked him together outside they all came looking at me, Okay, what is this guy going to do with us? So we just arranged a small game and started playing the aim with them. Okay, so it's you, yes, two d H fifteen criminals harder and softened. I don't know all of them are there for murder or more. So we started playing a game and they got so involved like little children. They screamed and yelled, and they played the game full on for

about an hour. Then I stopped and then for about half an hour because they gave me only two hours. Next aboum two hours, you have to leave the prison. So then I spoke to them for half an hour and told them, see, this is what I wish to do. All of you guys should write to the authority, to the superintendent that you want this program for you. You won't believe when I had to leave at the end of two hours, at least sixty percent of them we're all in tears. They're saying, you don't go, you stay

with us. So seeing this, then they allowed me to conduct a program am The first program I did, it was a ten day thing, two hours every day, ten days. So I sought permission to stay inside the prison. I said, let me stay there ten days with them, so that they feel I'm They're really wanting to do something with them,

not just for cosmetic purposes. I couldn't get that permission because there were some militants in India they called terrorists, So some of the terrorists were imprisoned in that prison. They said, no, we can't let you stay there. But every day I went there. My thing was only for two hours, but I went there, served mail to them, participated with them in their break times. I was there. We participated in all activity in the prison. In that ward where these prisoners were there, weld. I want to

back up a second. So you would go in and even the first time you said you play a game, What kind of a game. We just played simple games. We have certain homes like dodgeball and that kind of stuff. People. Yeah, fun we had. So every day in the two hour program ten days we had about half an hour or forty five minutes was just games. Then we taught them some simple process of yoga and spoke to them on a variety of things. The kind of transformation it brought

about there. This prison on that day had a six years of history. It was during the British era that it was set up as a maximum security prison. In this one thirty six years. Every day, literally every day, someone was always in the solitary. The solitary in that prison is like a four by four box four ft by four ft steel box. There you can only sit, you can't stand up. Jesus so in that they put

you for a week ten days like this. But after we did the program, after we did three programs, I think nobody went into the solitary for more than two year. Is not a single person entered the solitary. That's a kind of difference it made. And they burst forth into poetry. Most of them are school dropouts or many of them illiterate, but they all burst out into poetry, writing poems. We have over three to four thousand poems which is being released in India as a part of this. This program

be called as in a Freedom for the imprisoned. In Freedom for the imprison I munna tell you this. There was one guy, his name was Sham I think he's been executed now. He was there for three murders which he committed in the courtroom. He killed three people in the courtroom. Wow. So that is a kind of crime. You can't get away in the courtroom. When you do it, it's considered the worst thing. Well, and it's pretty hard to Yeah, I mean it's of the judge, your judges,

the eye witness. So yeah, pretty much done there. So he wrote a poem which you know, brought the entire prison into tears and just about anybody who reads the poem. He just said he he's been in the on the death row for about seven years. By then, every time in the evening, see, daytime is quite okay in the prison. From morning six to evening six, it's fine. Sunset, everybody goes into the cells and the cell door closes. Normally in India it's eight by five cell three people will

be there. That is when all all kinds of horrors begin. One thing the prison psychologists told us is every day in the night, in their sleep, people are howling like animals. One simple thing that happened with the simple meditation process we brought is people first sharing is they're sleeping peacefully. All these sounds and yellings stopped. And this guy a poem. Every day when the cell door closes, I thought this was my grave, but now this has become my bodhi tree.

If the cell door closes, you know the bodhi tree where Buddha God enlightened. When the cell door closes, I closed my eyes and I am in a different world altogether. This has become my Bodhi tree. He wrote this poem in Tamil in the local language. So like this there we've seen many, many fantastic transformational stories. See, the law has its ways. I mean, it's not for me to suddenly ask for a change in law or something, because you have to maintain law and order in a country.

There are many issues, but no matter where a human being is. Actually everywhere they call it a correction center, but there is no room for correction. In fact, people who go to prison for short stints and come they become really hardcore criminals when they come out, at least that's true in India. So when they go in they may be just partic criminals, when they come out they become serious level of crime. Right, that's a generalization here.

I shouldn't say that, but it does happen because it's logical. And also when we people here come out, they come out with a stigma having been in cars rated. It's harder to get a job and it's harder, you know. They if they had also come out with skills. Yeah,

they may learn criminal skills. But I want to say to just not to direct your flow here, but today is it is it particularly uh interesting day for you to be here because as we were discussing before, today is the day when Washington State abolished the death penalty, becoming the twentieth state in America to to do so. And hopefully we'll get all fifty because it's preposterous that we said it's it's disgusting that we as a country still execute people. It's also the eve of and you

brought this up. You know, we call it correctional as you said, but it's just punitive. All all we do

is punish people. I mean, there are some little programs here and there, but they've been cut back and cut back and cut back, um, which of course is crazy too, because the more we invest inside the prisons and helping people to better themselves and to advance themselves spiritually as you do, or educationally or whatever it is, um, the better chance they have of not reoffending and becoming productive citizens and paying taxes and and not causing problems on

the outside. And to that end, today tomorrow group is going m about thirty correction officials. My friend Dan Sleptian is going with them UH to tour prisons in Scandinavia and parts of Europe to see how they do it there, because there they focus on rehabilitation and they do it right. So by and large, so hopefully that those some of

those practices will be brought back here. But I think it's it's exciting that there is some progress and some momentum, more than any time since I've started working on this twenty five years ago. For for this type of change. Of all the things, the most important thing is that one who is imprisoned learns to handless condition in a

healthy manner within himself or herself. Please explain my work is Essentially, it doesn't matter where you are, whether you are in New York City or in India or in Africa. You're a prisoner, you're a politician, you're a musician, it doesn't matter who you are. Essentially, every human being has the right to be joyful and peaceful outside conditions in our lives. What the world throws at us is not always determined by us, but what we make out of

it within ourselves is entirely ours dent. So to empower people like this whether they are inside the prison outside the prison, because those who are outside the prison doesn't mean they're living joyfully. Many of them suffer more than the prisoners. When I went into the prison in the climate or where I personally worked. After that, we trained teachers and now in the last twenty three years it's

become a mandatory program in southern Indian prisons. What I saw was see when you go into the prison, it's a pretty organized place. Your food comes on the dot, your your door open, somebody opens doors for you, should sit for you. I'm saying, it's a very organized place. A lot of people aspire for that in their lives and it never happens. The only problem is I've never been into these prisons, either in India or in the United States and come out without tears in my eyes,

simply because there is pain in the air. This is how important freedom is for a human being. There's nothing else. Food is on time. In fact, people who are living in prison are far fitter than those people who are living outside. They're very physically fit, they're well fed everything. The only thing is there's no freedom, and how much it hurts a human being is unbelievable. There's simply pain in the air. If you just breathe that air, you've

you know, tears well up in your eyes. Not because I think of something emotional about them, simply the very atmosphere is full of pain. This is how significant freedom means for a human being. If you just take away that one thing, how much pain and how much damage it does to a human being in a very profound way is unbelievable. Well, and I do want to say in America, of course, we have you know, conditions in the prisons, in many prisons that are really terrible. And

that does extend to the food. Yes, you get three meals a day, but the food is can be rotten, it can be it's certainly not nutritious. Um. And you know, it is something that I think there's there's disease prone, uh, you know, because of the quality and the and the substance that they're being fed. So I don't want to sugarcoat that, but you are absolutely correct it is. I'm not saying they're getting the best food. I'm saying regular food. Regular they're never hungry. Food is given to them and

they're healthy because they fit. They kept themselves fit inside the prison I'm not trying to illogize a prison. I'm I'm trying to point out just because freedom is taken away, how much it hurts a human. I think that's that's a very good point, and it's interesting too. I'm reading

a book now. I'm almost finished with this book by Anthony ray Hinton called The Sun Does Shine UM, and it's his story of spending thirty years on death row in Alabama for a crime he didn't commit, and how he was able to escape from his uh, you know, taking is his own mind and using it to escape from this five by eight UH cell that he was

trapped in. UM. It's quite extraordinary, and I think that he, like a lot of people, found some variation of the principles that you teach UM on his own because it was the only way that he could survive this unbelievable ordeal. Seeing so many of the people around him executed, UH, smelling that smell of death and all the other deprivations

of death row. It's it's quite remarkable. And to me, I get so much UM inspiration and and UM gratitude from being around UH these extraordinary individuals who have persevered through these impossible conditions. And found, like I said, through you know, necessity or despiration or inspiration or some combination thereof again some variation of the very things that you are able to bring inside. And I want to turn to that too, because you've done work in prisons in

America as well. And how did that happen? Um, When I came to Nashville, because we kind of centered around Nashville, I visited this old prison from the kind of colonial times, and they took me into this place where where the executions happened. Just the just the energy that the stones around the stone walls have absorbed and still exceued is so terrible. So right there, I decided we need to

go to the prisons and do something. But we didn't get permission in Tennessee, so we went to Kentucky and then we came to Pennsylvania. These are two which allowed. But then I found that there was a lot of resistance from religious groups and others for any yoga or anything to come in there openly or goued with me, we will put them in prisons because we want them to suffer. We don't want you to have them blissed out.

There was a lot of resistance and struggle. So we have not done much in the last few years in America, but in India it continues. Yes, it's it's I'm glad you brought that up too, because I am trying to remember.

A friend of mine who I met acquaintance several years ago, had been teaching UH yoga and meditation in prisons in America and was so successful, um in terms of the results being like what you described in India, where the violence, the rates of violence inside the prisons plummeted, right, the infractions of the prisoners, every aspect of it just was so much better. Inmate on inmate violence, inmate inmate to guard,

vice versa. Everything just was so much better. Of course, so they canceled the program, right, and it's really remarkable, you know. We there's a case that I'm involved with now, and this is how crazy our system is in America in South Dakota where and you brought this to mind.

A guy his last name is rhymes uh. He was sentenced to death by a jury who said that they senced him to death instead of life because he's gay and they felt that sensing him to life in prison would entitle him to a life of enjoyment because he would enjoy being in there and amongst the presence of other men because he's gay. Um. Now, this is such an outrageous and terrible thing for anyone to say, and the idea that it's allowed to stand in this country.

It's almost like the jury was committing a hate crime. Um. So many of us are working now, including people at the this this project on trying to get clemency from the governor, because it's it's it's it's an extreme version of what you were talking about. The idea that we sit there and say, well, we don't want there to be any joy of any kind or any and you contrast it with places like Norway, right where in Norway

the guards are trained for two years. My understanding is that only ten of the ones who apply actually are accepted. They're trained in psychology, they're trained in conflict resolution, they're trained in all types of different protocols. And when people are brought to the prison, the warden gives a speech where he says something along the lines just first of all, the guards sing a song and then and some people listen are gonna say, well, this is outrage this is

too much. We can't do that. It's too nice or whatever whatever, but this is the way they do it over there, and the warden says it, makes a speech and says something like, well, I recognize that your people, your human beings, like me, and when you come out you might be my neighbor. Therefore, I want to treat you as my equal and treat you, as you know, with dignity, so that when you are done with your sentinels in the intention of correction is very alive. That's

what it means. Yes, over there, it's a very very den in Germany. It's true to where they have that the cells have locks, but they locked from the inside. You know, how how different is that? Right? What a simple change. They locked from the inside, so you could have that's a home. When you lock from inside, it's a home. I mean, you don't want to be there, right, I don't want to be there. You don't want to be there, No, no right minded person wants to be there.

But at least again, it provides a certain level of dignity that allows for It's quite opposite. For that way the poem that he wrote about every time the cell door closed it felt like my grave, in that he describes the clang of the boat when the damned door and plan crack. They look it. He he always started his death knell, you know, when he heard the soun that life is over every day. It's it's just the way somebody locks the door from outside, if you could

lock it from inside. It's a world of difference. It's a world of difference. And again, the recidivism rates in these countries are so much lower than ours because partially because of the fact that these people are treated as human beings when they go there and you know here, and of course I do want to touch on this too, and I'm interested in your take on this because in America, we treat people with mental illness as pariah's um and we lock them up instead of treating them for the

syndromes that they suffer from. Now, I'm not saying that if someone is mentally ill and they go and kill you know, people, that they shouldn't be punished in some way. Um but uh. And I, like you, believe in a system of law and order. I do think we need a justice system. We need to be free society, but

we also everyone is entitled to be safe. Um So, But it is incredible that we lock people with mental illness up in these prisons at the numbers that we do, the the estimates of the number of people who suffer from a diagnosable medical uh you know, uh, recognizable mental illness that are incarcerated in this country. I think it's something like thirty of the inmates in this country have

this and so. And those people are damned to an even more dire faith because of the fact that they can't obey the rules, right, So they're constantly being punished on top of their punishment because they're not mentally able to sometimes understand or go along with due to whatever it might be, schizophrenia or whatever they have. And so they end up in the whole or they end up in these you know, the shore or even worse can auditions, and of course all that does is exacerbate their mental illness.

So what is your I mean, do you have any insight into this? Say? Um? The thing is in the different system of when people want to lawyers want to defend their clients of very terrible crimes that have been committed, the first step that they take is mental disorder because it's the easiest way to get away. So I think even those who make judgments, either a judge or jury system in America, it's very hard for them to really design for sure which is real mental illnolence, which is not.

Because every one of us, if we are willing, if you push ourselves a little bit, we can cross the line of sanity and behave in a certain way. A lot of people do under our influence of alcohol or a drug. They are crazy today, but tomorrow morning they may be fine. Having said that, when somebody's diagno with an illness, treating him as a normal person and punishing him for those things is inhuman. But at the same time, the system might not have evolved to a place to

handle such people. Well, there may be no systemic in a country like America, you should be able to do it. In India, I am saying we don't have a systemic

arrangement to be able to handle such people. But in being in all these prisons, being in a community, no communication with various prison authorities, I've not heard of mental illness patients being there because usually they will be sent to a mental institution rather than keeping them in prison, because prison is simply not equipped to handle those things.

But we do not know how many people are there who have nailment but who are not being properly diagnosed as such and being treated as normal with punishments and stuff. It must be happening, I'm sure. Yeah. In New York City, we don't have facilities for people in those conditions. We don't have the type of treatment centers that you would associate with what many people think is the greatest and one of the greatest cities in the world. I do.

I grew up here. I love my city. But it's crazy that we have, uh, we have no ability to to house these people in a secure but safe environment where they can be treated and and hopefully get the help that they need in order to overcome or or or or get you know, some progress on these conditions

that are afflicting them. And so we put them into the criminal justice system where they are you know, they're going to be abused in ways that even that are even worse than people who are mentally fit for these situations. For these individual sufferings and dividual also systemic situation. One significant aspect these we made a huge difference. The reason why it's mandatory now in southern areas because the difference it made to the people and how their behavior has changed.

And many of them who are known to be little crazy and doing wild things inside the prison, all of them leveled out. Just taking yoga into the prisons can be a big thing. But when I say yoga, not the kind of yoga you're doing in the studios in New York City. There is another dimension of yoga. If we take this dimension of yoga into prisons, if the right kind of people take it in with at most care, concern and compassion for the people inside, it can make

a phenomenal difference. It has made a big, big difference in India. We're doing largely in southern India. There are other people who are doing in northern part of the India. And without doubt, every prison has reported significant changes in the behavioral patterns and the amount of violence was there in the prison because everything is settled. You know, hands are the first things which move in these people. And

how does this how long does this particular? How many minutes a day do people need to devote to the practice. They just have to devote twenty one minutes a day, twenty one minutes and uh seven days a week. And the changes six days a week, just every day, every day that you can't carry seven there's too much of a burden to Kenny, I agree. When I heard myself say that, I said, well, it sounds like a lot that you said every day. I was like, well that

I could do. It's like it's like one day at a time, right, So, um, never days come in bunches at you. It only comes one at a time. Yeah, that's isn't it such a wonderful grace that the creation never throws bunches of days at you. Suppose it came like a bunch of grapes, twenty five days came at you at a time. What would you do, Especially if it was like Wednesday, Thursday, and Monday at the same time,

or Sunday and Tuesday and Friday. It would be like so confusing, you know what I mean, Nobody would know what to do that. We have a metaphysical problem as well. So how can we full time in America? Now? Not most of the time. No, I have teams of people here, volunteers. So we need to figure out a way to work together to bring this UM teaching inside more prisons here

and see if we can. You know, I think this would work much better on East coast and west coast, But most of the work that we tried to do we did it in the Midwest, and the levels of resistance see the I think when we attempted this also about eight ten years ago. From then to now, I think the opinion of what yoga is has changed dramatically. In America, people thought this is some religious practice from India. Now they understand it is the science of well being.

So I think that understanding has sipped into the society quite well now. So it should be much easier to do it now than when we attempted to do it here. So yeah, I mean, I would love to see if we can work on it in New York State. You know there are But the good news is there are. As much as there's a lot of people in positions of power who are maybe closed minded, there are also a lot of people who are open minded and who want to improve the conditions. And it's better for everyone

when we're able to do that. It's better for I think everyone in that ecosystem of the prison, not just the inmates, right, even the closed minded people when they're very happy, they opened the minds a little bit so that is my thing. People. They were amazed, How is it these criminals, they're all behaving so well with you, they're so happy with you. I said, this is all it is. If you keep a human being happy, he's a wonderful guy always. If you're unhappy, he could be heading.

That's different. That's true with everybody, isn't it. So twenty one minutes a day not bad. Um, it's a way of to put it, very simply, to put it technically, It's like this. So all human experience has a chemical basis to it. What you call a stress, what do you call its anxiety? What you call its tranquility, misery, joy, agony, ecstasy, Everything has a chemical basis to it within the system. Now don't think about other chemicals in New York City.

I'm talking about the chemistry in the body. So every human experience has a chemical basis to it. Now, if you create a chemistry of blissfulness, you are blissful by your own nature. This is like a chemical soup. You are a chemical soup, actually a very complex chemical soup. The question it only are you a great super a lousy soup? So this is just about teaching people how to make a great super out of yourself that it tastes really wonderful from within. And when you're feeling wonderful,

you're naturally wonderful to everything around you. And how can people? So people are listening now, right, I'm sure they're wondering, how can I get involved with this? How can I myself? I'm not in prison, I'm out bad about doing whatever I'm doing. A lot of people listening in their cars, those who are imprisoned not by the government but by their own nature. But but this practice, this magical twenty

this is like a tease to people. Right, They're listening to the other, going where is this twenty one minute? How do I find these twenty What do I do? It's called aner engineering. They must look it up under engineering inner engineering. And there's YouTube videos and things so I can learn because I want to learn myself. Now. You know, there's even a propriatory online program. Uh huh. And you can just pull it up and just start

doing it right now. Yes, they can. I can envision people now driving to work and pulling over on the side of the roads. Of people across the world have done it. We had an organization which is completely run by volunteers. We have about four thousand, uh full time volunteers and over nine million part time volunteers. It's all done by them. Well, I mean, you might have nine million and one by the time we finished with this podcast, because right so it's www Dot Inner Engineering dot com.

Www Dot inner Engineering dot com. And I want to also say, I mean, I've I've had the privilege of getting to know so many people who are either still on inside prison like Yan Serring, who is those those people that you have helped to come out, those who are wrongly incarcerated, and now you help them to come out. We would be privileged to conduct a special program for them if they're in one place somewhere. Okay, fantastic, We're

gonna you know what we're gonna do. We will will organize that for the next Innocence Network conference, where we're going to have approximately two hundred people who are wrongfully convicted all gathering together. We will do the program we love for the program at our cost. We will whatever is needed for those people that would be wonderful and

much appreciate, and we're gonna make that happen. Um. But I was gonna say too that I've had the privilege of getting to know some extraordinary people like Sonny Jacobs, who I was talking to you about before, who was sentenced to death, who taught herself these practices from things

she remembered seeing on TV. And this was in the seventies when she was convicted, late seventies, early eighties, um, and who got her you know, who managed to maintain her sanity in her years in isolation on death row

by by using some similar, you know, techniques, practices. And then there's a guy who I always think about, Nimen Sering, who's still in after thirty one years in Virginia, who is a meditation practitioner and a Thai Chi master, and I know he's teaching others in the in the prison that he's in in Virginia some of these practices and

writing books about it and other things like that. So you know, it's it's it's out there and it's already percolating, and you know it's helping people, but it needs to be done on a much more organized and organized Scalely scale is important if you want to see the difference. That's the word I was looking for, a scale. So I would love to see if we can start. I mean, for instance, I think New York State is a good

place to start. UM. We have um some very good people and positions of great authority inside the correction system who I think would be very open minded to this UM. And I have a prison in mind right now. Or my friend J. J. Velasquez, John Age of last Quas has been on the show, is still locked up in sing Sing and I think we're gonna let's explore and

see if we can bring this practice inside there. They do a lot of wonderful things their voices from within and other programs that are that are progressive, I would say, but this would be I mean, there's so many good things that can come out of you being here. And I was starting this this process now. Now it's interesting because you're such a such an interesting and inspirational man, and yet you are a victim of the same affliction as I am, which is called golf. So why why

do you suffer? I don't suffer that as an infliction. It's just that I used to play a variety of games. I played a lot of field hockey when I was young. I played soccer, being in India, played cricket. I was When I was in school, I was in some twelve disciplines of games. That's all. I did, just bot most of the time. But about seven eight years ago, I was playing soccer with the kids and I tore my a c L and my left knee cartilage. So after

that injury, I was just sitting. I had an event and I was sitting at a dinner table and somebody brought one brand new tailor made golf it and they said, it's time you play golf. You're too old for the other games. You're time. It's time you understand this. The next day I all packed up my knee. I went to the golf course, straight onto the course. I've never been to a driving range till now. I just went straight, straight on the course and I hit the ball. It

went straight there was It's amazing. I said, what's a big problem. It's a bloody sitting ball, not moving. He's not moving. It's a sitting ball. Any other game I played, the ball was coming at me at different angles, different velocities, different spins. Here it's sitting. What's a big deal about hitting it? So I never took a lesson. I've never been on a range now I'm playing for a handicap of not bad. Pretty amazing. Um, you'd like gonna be

the successor to Tiger Woods or something like that. We're gonna get you on the tour. It's gonna be amazing, self taught and everything else. Um So, and I think we may we may have to go out and hit some balls together tomorrow. Um. I think the weather is going to cooperate. So that's the plan and I'm excited about that. Will with the ball will sit there and wait for us, and we will go out there and

address it problems anybody. It sits and yeah, and it doesn't know who we are either until we hit it. And it is amazing because when people ask me about golf and they say, um, we're getting way off topic here. But people who don't play golf, they ask me, why why do you do? This is a waste of time four hours just at the other what. First of all, you're out there in nature. It's beautiful. It's grass and water and trees and birds and air and whatever. It's

very nice, you know, nice day whatever. You're with friends and social. But moreover, on those rare occasions when you actually hit a golf ball, properly, and you can. The physics are the same in golf as other sports with balls. Right when you hit one side of the ball, it compresses and then that energy has to go somewhere, so it explodes out the other side of the ball and

then the ball flies. And on that rare occasion when I have had the privilege of hitting it properly, you can actually feel that compression and it goes through the ball to the club, into your hands and throw your body, into your soul and connects you to the center of the universe in a way. That is that's my that's my definition. I don't know it does. Like I said, it happens maybe once every few rounds, but that shot is what I live for when I'm out there. You know,

it's just such a great amazing thing. And then unlike other sports, you don't have to run, Nobody tackles you, nobody, nobody's saying to take your ball. You just go and walk and look and catch catch up with the ball and think a little bit, what kind of shot. And it's a very nice little breeze. That's nice, nice, nice. So hopefully tomorrow will have that experience. I can't guarantee it, but we'll see what It freaks people, mainly because they got nobody to blame, but the ball that went into

the lake they annoy. It's them. That's what you see people freaking because they know if it's any other game, you can say the other guy did it. Here there is nobody else when the ball lands in the lake, you know it's just you. That's what makes them make

people go totally crazy. So there's a strong element of personal responsibilities, which is pretty hint thing out there which I can see that so UM grew before we close, UM, I wanted to do the same thing I do when I'm every more or less every episode, which is to ask my guests if if I can just turn the microphone my microphone off, UM and and thank you again for being here and sharing your your thoughts and your experience and your wisdom with with me and with the audience,

and then just turn it over to you for any other ideas that you would like to share. So this is something everyone should understand that everybody is some kind of a prisoner of their own making, some unfortunately by the state, but rest by themselves. When I said prisoner, people have limited themselves in some way, they've drawn their own by boundaries, the boundaries maybe of gender, race, or religion,

or ethnicity or nationality. We've drawn boundaries that we cannot cross in our own minds, which is the basis of so much of suffering that's happening within human beings. So we need to understand this as there is a science

and technology for external well being. When I say science and technology for external well being, if you just look back and see what is the level of comfort and convenience that people enjoyed a hundred years ago and what is the level of comfort and convenience who are enjoying today, it's just unbelievable. No generation ever knew these kind of comforts and conveniences, so we should be the most joyful generation.

But such a thing has not happened simply because we've fixed the outside too much, done nothing about our interiority. So as there is a science and technology for external well being, there is a whole science and technology for inner well being. You don't have to believe anything, you don't have to belong to any group, if you just learn a few things about how to manage your body, how to manage your thought, process, your emotion, and your energies.

If these four dimensions your body, mind, emotion, and energy take instructions from you, you will live healthy, you will live blessed out, and you will live a powerfully intense life. This is possible for every human being when it comes to the outside action. Not to human beings are equal. What we can do with our body, what we can do with our mind, not to human beings are equal. But when it comes to the inner dimension, all of

us are equally capable. Such a thing has not happened to most people simply because they never paid attention to what is within. They thought by fixing the outside, everything will be okay. You see the hammer banging, because they think by fixing the outside, everything is gonna be okay. We have more comfort and convenience in any generation ever had in the history of humanity. We are the most

comfortable generation ever. But we are almost complaining like neurotic complaint level, simply because we have not done anything about the inner nature of who we are. So what we are referring to us in engineering is this possibility. This is not only for people who are in some state

of suffering or imprisoned or whatever. First and foremost thing is people in positions of responsibility and power must get this because if they don't break their limitations within themselves, if though they don't erase the boundaries of their individuality you, they cannot change the situation. They cannot bring about a new possibility. You have heard the word yoga. Of course, the word yoga means union. The yoga, the word yoga does not mean twisting and turning. Yoga means union. Union

means there is you and the universe. Right now. If you look at individual human beings, their life is like it is you versus the universe. You versus universe is a stupid competition to get into the Yoga means consciously you raise the boundaries of your individuality. Where there is no you and the universe, You are a part of the universe in your living experience, not as an idea, not as an intellectual process, not as an emotional process,

but as a living experience. Like you experience the ten fingers of your hand, you experience all life around you. If if a human being is touched by this experience, even for a moment, the very way you perceive, experience, and express your life alters dramatically, and that is what needs to happen. We are just doing uh cosmetic changes to human beings by teaching them morality, ethics, small changes in attitudes. This is not good enough. Only when you

experience the other as myself, everything about you changes. This is what yoga means, this is what in engineering means. In a way. On that note, um, I want to thank you again for media in whatever way we can be useful for these people who have been unjustly punished by a society. We will do our best. Please call upon us whenever we needed. Thank you, I will be doing so. And thank you for that very kind and generous offer. And also get ready to be beaten in

the golf game tomorrow. Oh boy, I thought we are one and one is the two and the other one is together and we're gonna I'm gonna be on with the universe. So okay, Well, it's good to know that that doesn't that doesn't extend all the way to the golf course. It stops at the entrance to the club. So anyway, well, this has been a real treat for me. Don't forget to give us a fair tastic review. Wherever

you get your podcasts. It really helps, and I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project and I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wardis. The music on the show is by three

time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one