I've never been in trouble in my life.
I didn't even have a parking ticket, you know what I mean.
I was brought up with cops are the good guys.
I didn't know what was going to happen, but I do know that everything was stacked against me.
Everything like everything.
This isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent. I know I'm innocent. I know I had nothing to do with this. How is this possible?
I grew up trusting systems. I've grew up believing that every human being should do the right thing. And that's why, even though I knew I was dealing with corerough people, I wasn't going to break anyone to get me out of prison because I wouldn't live with the fact that I break my way out of my wife's death. I'm not innocent, too proven guilty. I'm guilty until I prove my innocence. And that's absolutely what happened to me.
Our system.
Since I've been out ten years, it has come a little ways, but it's still broken.
I totally lost trust in humanity after what's happened to me.
This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction with Jason Flamm that's me, and today I have an extraordinary person as my guest, a man named Rafael Madrigal. Raphael, welcome to the show. Good morning, and Raphael, you know I often say it, I'm going to say to you, I'm happy you're here, but i'm sorry you're here because there's absolutely no excuse for what happened to you. And as a member of as an American and as a human, I apologize to you on behalf of everyone because this
this story, it literally makes no sense whatsoever. Are you know better than anyone and I and I want to get into all those details because your story has so many things that we see again and again right. It has mistaken eye witness identification. It has an incompetent defense attorney. It has an air tight alibi that anybody in you know, any with any degree of sanity or education or knowledge of justice with nobody could have possibly convicted you based
on those factors. But we're going to unravel all of that and find out how you got charged with first degree murder and how you got exonerated as we go along. But before we do that, let's go back, like at a time machine, to when you were a kid. Where where did you grow up in California?
Yes? I did. I grew up in Los Angeles.
So was it a difficult childhood or a happy family life? What? What can you paint a picture for us to the audience. What what was it like growing up?
Actually it was a real more lifestyle. I mean, yeah, it was in a rough neighborhood, but I mean my early teen years, I mean it was just a bigger neighborhood. Everybody was going on and you know, trying to find themselves. But later on, if we started getting older, then yeah, things started changing. You know. It wasn't rough neighborhood. A lot of gang violence around, and as the nineties started hitting, maybe I started getting a little bit worse and worse
and worse as time went along, you know. But as myself, I mean, I made the best of it. I graduated from high school, I got a job right after high school. College was informed me. I tried it for about a year, and I think, you know what college is going to for me? So you know, I decided, you know, I think I've read the work and being that I was already going to be a father at nineteen, then you know, I knew my responsibility and.
That's and both of those things you just mentioned are important parts of your story. Right. The fact that you did become a father very young, and we know what this wrongful incarceration took from you. We're going to discuss that. But also the fact that you did start working very
young is an important thing as your story goes. Was along because of the fact that in your alibi, what made it so air tight, I mean, I was gonna say bulletproof, you know, is the fact that you were a highly skilled person who was the only person that could operate the machinery at your job, which meant that, you know, there's no way you could have committed this crime fifty miles away when you were the only guy there that knew how to do what you were doing,
and the whole factory would have shut down, right, So the whole operation was so But let's get into that by way of this crime, right, because it was I mean, this sounds like it was a hit, right, I mean, this was a this was a shooting. Can you can you explain the crime itself? Obviously weren't there, but you're super familiar with There was a guy named Aguilera right correct.
The victim his name was ricordagu I mean I ended up seeing him when he came to the fighting court, But other than that, I've never had seen the gentleman. You know. It wasn't drive by shooting. It was a game that was going on at the time. As you know, I was forty five miles away from the incident, you know, nowhere near it, and I was still put in a situation where I lost ten years of my life.
Well, how did and and you were senced to twenty five to life, which is I mean unimaginable to think of how that must have, you know, just devastated you. But how did your name come up in the first place when you so obviously weren't there and you could prove it. And who was it that first? I know there were witnesses that identified you, but how did they even come to bring your name up? Did you ever find out how that happened?
Or it all started off with the picture that this Los Angeles sheriff had on myself. The picture had took me when I was I had just turned sixteen years old at the time of the crime. I was twenty five already. So they used that picture to show the witnesses and the victim, and they all started with one of the witnesses bid me that I resemble the shooter.
Okay, wait a minute now, first of all, wait, wait, let's go back. Let's go back for a second. So, Raphael, you were sixteen when your picture was taken.
Great?
Was it even appropriate for that picture to still even be in the books? Isn't that supposed to be sealed after you turn eighteen?
I'm not sure. I don't know how exactly that works. Is any type of law that prohabits them from using the almost a ten year old picture?
And what was the original? Sorry? Interrupted, but why was your picture in the book in the first place? What? What were you picked up for when? And I don't judge anything because I know where you grew up, as a lot of people get picked up for a lot of things. They do the sweeps and everything else. And you know, we've had people talk about how they were almost tricked into having their pictures taken and put into the mug Shot book when they were just barely teenagers.
And it's also sort of ridiculous to point out that you were they were using a nine year old can imagine how much your appearance changes from sixteen to twenty five. But yeah, so why was your picture in the book in the first place?
A picture, Like I said, it was taken when I was sixteen, when they were in front of my house and ganged unit ended up swooping by and everybody that was there inside my house. They pulled us home out and they took pictures of us and they went on the way. Never did I imagine in my life that that picture was coming hunt me almost ten years later.
So, yeah, so you were literally doing nothing, standing around in front of your own house and they took a picture that ended up actually turning your life completely upside down for the most random of reasons. And we'll get into that too. That the fact is that we know that there are ways to improve eyewitness identification procedures, including the fact that I'm guessing in your case, like in most cases, they were using six pictures on that page
in the Mugshot book. And you know, decades of research have now proven scientifically that the human mind, if you give it that many options, will go towards somebody that sort of resembles a little bit. They'll start, you'll start to make up things subconsciously that don't even that aren't real because you see all these different pictures. So by making the simple change of putting one picture per page, we know that the incidents of wrongful identifications will go
down by around fifty percent. So that's the change that we're trying to get made all over the country and in any case. So so I mean, this is this is an unbelievable thing. So you're now far away, have no idea what's going on somewhere in a police station in these Los Angeles, these witnesses, one of them randomly picks your photo and then what happens.
And then from there, I mean, the night marriages started from when the incident happened, I believe the incident took please and from there after the incidet I believe, they showed the pictures, the pictures to the nickup to the witnesses could tell me about that to the witnesses, And fifteen days later after the incident, that's when I got picked up. I got picked up bunch of light the twentieth.
July to twenty so paint this picture for us place. So you're July the twenties, where were.
You July of twenty I had just dropped off my wife at work. I was because she went a little bit earlier than I did. I dropped on us at work. I was heading back home to get ready myself. And when I was driving into I used to live in a culvi Sec at the time. When I was driving in, I noticed that there was a bunch of a shelf deputy patrol cars on the side of the street and they were all putting under gear. And uh, I see them. I said, Oh, they're going to give somebody a rude
awakening right now. Little did I know they were going to my house.
And you. I read an article about you in San Francisco magazine where you were talking about how you were literally, I'm going to quote you. You said, I was literally living in the American dream, and then I got everything pulled out from under my feet. You had two kids at this point, your wife was pregnant, You had a good job, right, so life was looking pretty pretty damn good.
Right, Yeah, I mean literally, I had we had just thirty many years that we had boughtle in a house. So I mean, I mean, therefore we were striving for it. The fire own the house and we were tired of paint where so I mean we put we put our nesteak together and everything that we have saved up for we eased to move. But literally we know that, I mean this nightmare was going to start at night the twenty year.
So you had two boys six and three and a little girl on the way and then you get picked up taken in for questioning. I assume, right, and explain explain that process.
Well, that's the funny point is when I when I see that take the sales the troll corse in the Cola sat. I came to the stop sign and they had a picture of me, a blown up picture that they were going to my house with. So when I got to the stop sign, one of the deputies that at the picture. It happened to me. He had the piers looking at the picture at the time when I turned on and I looked at him, relacktizer to each other, and he drew his weapon on me and he yelled
at me time to get off of my map. So yeah, sure enough, they got me off the van and they said the first one telling me all they need to talk to you down the station. So I tell them all of this here because they need to talk to me, and he said, you know what, they'll explain to a little bit more. Well, from there, they took me to the station. They put me in a van outside of the station and they left me there for it and
I say him, good four hours. For what reason, I'm not sure, but I was here that for four hours. Followers lady put me inside the Holy Pera and I ask again, who need to talk to me? What do we need to talk to me about? And they said, oh, you know what, they'll talk to you. They'll talk to you. That whole day went through, nobody came to talk to me. Uh. Finally there was two other inmates in the cell next to me when the detective involved in my case, can's
talk to them? And I asked them, Hey, who's going to talk to me? And he says, you know what, wait to turn. I'll talk to you when that time. So I told him, I'm looking at you. You're not gonna talk to me now. Let me know. I'm going to bail out because I got to go to work. And his words to me where, you know what, I'm gonna give you some advice. Save your money because you're gonna need it.
Who said that to you?
One of the need to take you in my case, now you're there.
First of all, this I'm trying to process this whole idea of sitting for four hours in a van, not knowing what's going on, just like just left there. No, I mean, it's got to be a terrifying thing in and of itself. But okay, So now finally they come and talk to you and they tell you you're being charged with first degree murder.
Yeah. No, actually no, they didn't come back to me. It was into my arrangement because I got to rest them on a Thursday morning. I got arranged on Monday morning. The following week. When I went into my arrangement that seemed to take they came to talk to me and he asked me, but my co defendant, and he asked me, when was the last thing you see him?
Right? And this is an important point because the co defendant ultimately testifies that you were not involved. Right.
No, he didn't testify to it. What it was was that there was a TEMP recording from the county jail. Because me and me and my co defendant, I was first enough to tell me who did this? I know I have nothing to do with this. Somebody else was with you, and he just got like very upset because I was questioning them, and I told me, you know what, I'm he'll be here this. I have nothing to do with this. So me and him got into a real big argument and we ended up being into a fight.
Two days later, his girlfriend came to visit him in the county jail. Well, when his girlfriend came to visit him, he had a black guy and his girlfriend started a question, what's going on with you? What's going on with you? And said jail. So he told us, you know what, I'm gonna tell you. The children's that's going on. You know what, Ralph has nothing to do with this. He's
asking around who was involved. And I told him the spell of his business and he needs to keep this his questions to himself and he shouldn't have nobody else asking about this crime.
And that was that was that was said.
That yes, that was all. And originally when the tape recording came to life, they had told my my my attorney that it was me in the in the tamp recording confessing to the crime. So, uh, right before travel, he said, we got a tape recording was this confession to the crime. We didn't use it. So when my attorney asked me about this recording, I said, look at Andrew's names. I understand. I said, look at from the day that I hired you. I told you I had
nothing to do with this. I'm not going to change up on you. I still stand one hundred percent that I have nothing to do with this. So he teld me, Okay, you know what, We're going to ask for an extension, and I'm going to listen to the recordings and we'll come back in a month. So moth later we come back, and I asked him what happened to the recordings? I don't know what. Don't worry about it. There's nothing that can help you, and there's nothing in there that could hurt you.
None of that makes any sense. So first of all, let me backtrack. Were you out on bail or you and were you locked up this whole time?
Well? I was locked up this whole time because originally, when I went for my arrangement, my bill was at thirty Kusand when I went to my arrangement, they raised my bill from thirty kundred dollars.
To two million dollars two millions, So they didn't want you going anywhere. And and this attorney who we know, made a series of mistakes that are literally out age. This is the only word I can think of to explain the nature so many of them and so egregious that any law student would have been able to handle this case better than he did. Obviously, this was a quarter pointed attorney, I'm assuming.
No, actually he was a private attorney.
Wow, So this was a private attorney. I mean, was he Do you have any theory as to what was wrong with him in terms of was why why was he so ill suited for this job? Like? What was there something going on in his personal life? Was there some did you ever find out?
No? Actually, you know what, when when my family first hired him, I mean he talked a real good story to my family, said, you know what, I'm going to get home and I'm going to prove his innocence. And I mean he just said everything that you'll be said. But as time was going by and postponement of post it's like his whole demeanor just change, like you know, like he just literally gave it up on the case. Because he of the almost three years that I spent
in the county jail fighting this case. One time he came within me. That was when when my family hired him. After that, never again did he come and see me, ask me questions, nothing. It was just I would only see him and we would go to court.
He came to see you one time in three years. And three years, Oh my god. You know, this is so it's so outrageous, and it's amazing too.
You know.
I'm just finishing reading the amazing book by Anthony ray Hinton called The Sun Does Shine. How I Found Life and Freedom on Death Throw by Anthony ray Hinton with Lara lev Harden, and in it he talks about Brian Stevenson, the legendary attorney who would visit him on death row over fifteen years, like incredible in a remote prison in Alabama. And here it is like one time in three years. I like, I'm you know, I'm so angry at this whole thing. It's like I can't process how that could
even be. And then in the meantime he also made like mistakes that are unimaginable in terms of the idea that you had a tape recording. I'm just reflecting on this right, you had a tape recording with the actual perpetrator saying that you his co defendant wasn't there and and he he couldn't even work with that, Like he couldn't even and he's telling you that the tape recording doesn't matter, and then he doesn't bring it up at court,
among other things. Right, because I'm not stopping there. I mean the idea that during the trial he was unable
to he did well, he wasn't unable. He didn't call your coworker who would have testified and said that it was impossible for you to have committed this crime since, as I said earlier in the podcast, the whole you were the only guy there that could operate the machinery, and we know that the machinery was operating, and we know that you were you were there, you were clocked in, you were I mean, it's just mine how you know how this could have transpired the way it did and
you lived it. So so I want to get to this so it finally comes to the trial. It took three years to get to trial.
Yeah, about two and a half years, which.
Is crazy in itself. And meanwhile, your kids are growing up without their father, your wife is in the situation of trying to figure out how to make ends meet, which I know that ultimately she had to move out of the house that your dream house, because I mean, who can raise three kids and work a job, and I mean it's you know, and in the meantime, she's left with the task of trying to explain to the kids. I'm sure they're asking, when's daddy coming home? Right, I mean,
it's just it's so I mean, it's so much. It's just so much. So you finally come to trial, and by the time you got to trial, now, I mean you've got to be almost a basket case by this.
Point, I'm literally just I mean, words wouldn't even baber explain it. And just the worst part about it was that the doubt was there from the beginning year for the prosecution. Keep in mind, I went through Ford justic attorneys. It wasn't intil the fourth one that decided to take you to trial. The first three came in. I mean the first one, mister Dan Baker, which was the top gang prosecutor in Los Angeles County at the time. He came and he told my attorney at the time, you
know what I have an offer for him. My offer for him is twenty five with life. That's the only thing that will offer him, you know. A year later he leaves the case. They bring another prosecutor in from another city, and he comes in the same way. You know what. There's no deals, there's no deals. Finally, when he's upt maybe about ten months into the case, he says, you know what, I might have a deal for you. We'll see how that turns out. The following him, Monk,
he was off the case. They bought another gentleman from the city of comped In. He was on the case for a month. He let the case go. They finally brought in This is Ramiors, Maria Ramiors, which is the one that finally took me to trial, and she's the one that finally convicted me, you know.
And my team was, yeah, Raff, where you tried If it's okay if I call you Ralph. Were you tried together with all of ours or separately?
No? Together?
But he didn't take the stand, and you had the tape recording, But the lawyer didn't bother to tell anybody about this tape recording where he was admitting that you weren't there.
Exactly. It's like the stame recording. The prosecution is the one that brought them to light, but at the end nobody used them. And when we when we got our appeal granted, and we came to the Federal Court hall and he asked mister Stein about the tape recordings. All he responded was, you know what, I think my secretary listened to them.
Wow, my secretary listened to them. Doesn't that say at all? Right? That that is what's so nuts to me is that there are that there are people in this less justice system I call it sometimes in justice system that are so cavalier about someone's life, because in your case, it really was your life. I mean, twenty five to life is a life sentence, Let's face it. I mean there's when twenty five to life sentence. As a twenty five year old man, you're basically looking at spending the rest
of your life behind bars. And this guy had his secretary listen to the recording. Okay, that's I'm just gonna think about this for a second. So when you went to trial, by now you I mean, I'm assuming you had lost faith in your attorney, had did you consider it firing him? Hiring somebody else.
Well, I really didn't a system of what you could and can do. It was my first time being in a position like this. Keep in mind, I have never been arrested soon, I have never been turned before. So I was lost. You know, my only guidance was my attorney.
Right and you and you want to have you want to have faith in him at this point, I'm assuming because you need to have faith in somebody or something, and he's your advocate, he's your champion. But when you went to trial, did you feel like, how can I say this? Did you feel like you were going to be exonerated? I mean, at this point the system had already you know, shown you it's its worst sides. So
but but still you knew you were innocent. So what was your like going in to the court room finally after all these years or two and a half years, three years? Did you feel like you were going to be exonerated? Or you were you like, oh, you know they've got me and that's going to be it.
No, No, I I like, honestly, I never did my faith in the truth. I was always under the impression of one second of the trial, I'm going to be able to prove my innocent. I'm going to prove it. And the trial massed the two days deliberations, there's a lot of it in the childhood deliberation was on four days, and they kept on and they kept on coming back. The jury kept on coming back to questioning my alibi. So the doubt was there from the beginning. There wasn't the doubt just to the jury.
It was.
It was there from the beginning, even with the prosecution.
But here's another thing. As I was reading and rereading your story, I was thinking, you're sitting there next to your lawyer. He's not calling your alibi witness. Uh, from the I don't know what the guy's name was, from the factory or was it a factory or or what was the place that you were working at? What was it called?
It was it was a manufacturing company.
And what was the name of the guy who never was called that should have been called. That could have actually, you know, absolutely without any doubt, established your your alibi as being factful.
That was my manager, Bob Howards.
Was he in the courtroom, No, he was never in the court room.
Actually he got to the court room and to my understanding, by attorney told him that he was not going to be called testifying, but he did show up.
Did you at any point say to your attorney, where is Bob Howard? Why isn't he here? Why aren't you calling him to the stand?
No, I mean I was.
My head was just just so lost when I kept on just hearing on the prosecution kept on just making me look like this animal, you know. And even when the victim himself got up on the standing, they asked him, do you see the person who's shout who shot you here today in this court room? The gentleman said, the person who shot me, he's not here. He wasn't lying,
he was not lying. He was saying the truth. But what would make that bad was that right after he got understand was that they put detected the move understand, and they asked him to take to the move. Why do you feel a monsieur Aguilla is saying that the person who shot him is not here? So his comments were, oh, well, he feels he doesn't want to be label to snitch, he doesn't want to be labeled to rap, he doesn't want any repercussions. But it was never that the gentleman
was saying the truth. The person that shot him was not important.
I'm again trying to figure. I'm trying to put myself inside the mind of the jury because even with such even with such a I mean, inadequate is not a strong enough word, but even with such an incompetent, disinterested, even still with that alone, you would think that the jury would go well, okay, I guess that's it, you know. And obviously they thought long and hard before they finally decided what they decided and and sentenced you to to
this this terrible uh, this terrible term in prison. So that moment must have been the worst moment of your life. I mean, I can't imagine anything worse. When the jury came back in, did they look at you with your family in the courtroom? Can you was it hot? Was it cold? Do you remember? Can you paint the picture for us of what that was like?
And I remember it clearly that it was yesterday, It was almost days in for the jury, and I was under the impression it was I believe a flighting. They were gonna just bring us back on Monday. H the bailiff called called us in from the from the holding tank. Decision or what I think they came back with the verdict three o'clock to me thirty in the afternoon, and I remember my pums were swating so bad, and I don't know if it was hot and narrow it is cold.
I was. I was nervous, you know, And the jury came back and just hearing those words, you know, when we find the defending guilty, It's like if I had the world on my shoulders at the time, the world just came crashing down on me.
And you can't help thinking, oh, sorry, go ahead, Ralph.
I mean it was just then turning along to fee my family and just everybody breaking down, trying because they knew the truth. I mean, nobody better than my family knew the truth. And them hearing the word's Guilty's like they just took the air out of their ownness.
And I can't help thinking that the fact that it was the weekend coming up and the jury didn't want to have to come back or be I don't know if they were sequestered, but that probably played a role inside that room of them saying you know what, Maybe there was one or two holdouts and they finally said, you know what, this weekend and Monday, I gotta go to work whatever. And so for anybody who's listening, I always say, please, if you get called for jury duty,
first of all, show up. I know it's annoying, it's difficult, it's in a position on all of our life. Show up, serve on a jury. Pay attention, and remember that somebody like Raphael is hanging in the balance. His whole life is hanging in the balance. When you're sitting there, and you know, it's all of our duty to our fellow citizens, so our fellow human beings, that we give it, you know, all the attention that it deserves, and that we remember that these mistakes happen as often as they do, and
you're living proof of it. So you're now convicted a sense to twenty five years to life. The worst thing that could possibly happen, you go to prison. I guess I want to get to the I want to get to the good part, right, the exoneration and what's happening now. But if you can tell us during those see you had been waiting almost three years for the trial, and you were in for another almost seven in a maximum security prison. And was that as bad as everyone is
imagining it to be. Was there anything, Was there any bright spot in that whole time you were there? What was the best and the worst aspect of that entire miserable time of seven years? And then again this is in adding because you were in for almost ten but the seven years inside prison after you had been tried and convicted, you.
Know, I could honestly say the best point of those of those ten years was coming across Eric Moltop, which was the attorney who originally contacted California intos budget. Mister Motop was referred to me by my state appointed appeal attorney, Laura Safer. And when Laura Seafer got my case originally after I got sentenced, you know, she was very honest with me. She told me the way it was, the
system works. She says, Looking, you got to understand where state appointed appeal attorneys, they don't pay us to do extra labors. They just pay us to do push PayPal three days. You know. But after going through your case, you're not supposed to be here. And I told him, you know what, I know, I'm not supposed to be here.
And she went as far as tell him, but you know what, You're gonna have to get a private attorney to be able to help you out, and she referred me to this gentleman, Eric moltip out of the Valley, California. And this gentleman from the beginning when he got a hold of my case, he contacted me and within a month a month and a half, I want to say, he wrote me a letter and explained to me. He goes, look, I read your case already. I don't know what you're
doing in prison. You know, we need to get you home. And from there he got the bone rolling. He started investigating. And the first thing that I call him when he came to visit me, I told him, Eric, the only thing I need you to do is because I have never listened to the tape recordings. I asked him, please listen to this tape recording to something there. It always stood in the back of my mind. There has to be since there and he goes, okay, you know Where'm
gonna listen to him? I kid you not. Maybe within a month he went back to the prisoners in again and he asked me, is that you and the tape recordings. I said, look, Eric, I haven't listened to them. I don't know what's in them. So he brought a copy of tape recordings and he played it. And as soon as the first work came out of the tape recording, I told him that's Francisco. I recognized his voice immediately. He says, are you sure? I said, look at them,
one hundred percent sure. That's Francisco and Waters and the tape recordings. And that's what just got the ball rolling. We're able to admit the tape recordings back into adment because originally the prosecutions prosecution is the one that you have brought them out to light, but they were never used.
So Eric goes, you know what, I got to get this back in there, and sure enough, that was one of the key things that the magistrate in the Federal appeals court asked, why were these tape recorders never used in his defense?
A damn good question, and that was newly discovered evidence at that point as well, which is great. So okay, so let's fast forward. Now. What must have been maybe other than the of your kids or I don't know, but it must have been the happiest day of your life, which is the day that you were back in court. How did you get end up getting exonerated released? And must have been like this million pound weight has lifted off your shoulders now, so can you explain that right?
Well, the flip side was that we first had a file of motion for THEVID injury hearing and we got that event hearing granted. So I was brought from prison back down to Orange County where the evidence your here was going to take place. So during that evident you're hearing, we were able to call my attorney who represented me, we put him on a stand, and we were able to bring mister Bob Howard and put him on the stand. So, I mean, all the pieces that were missing at the trial.
We put him in front of the federal courthouse and that's what was able to bring the light. So once we got mister Stein under Stein on the stand and he was able to just literally deny everything that he did and also put mister how I was understanding him, admit you know what he was at work. I'm one hundred percent positive to use at work. There's no way he could have been gone. You know. That's what took turn bottom. This was in October. In June of two thousand and nine, my appeal was granted.
I mean, how did you feel you were you freed from the courtroom. Explain the whole thing, because this is my favorite part of the show, right, the good part.
Right. Well, the next day, all of that day, I just slep all night. Literally, I slipped not one hour of shod I The next morning, I'm thinking, Okay, they're going to call me early in the morning. Then they're going to walk me out seven o'clock. He in eight o'clock. Uttil finally winning the Tiputys came to the to my cell and said, you know, we'll get your stuff ready. I got to take you down to our which is
receiving a release. And he told me, oh, you're a Turney is supposed to be here to pick you up at eleven o'clock. But if he's not here, we have to that you go those best to court order. So eleven o'clock came and they walked me to the gate and mister Eric Moscoup was they're waiting for me. You know, it was it was an unexplainable relief happiness. I don't know if it was just a bunch of emotions going
through me. You know, my dad just passed away eight months earlier, so it was it was just a bunch of things going through my mind. You know, how was I going to get back into society? What was I going to do? You know, it's just a million things going through your mind. I get home, man, there's a bunch of camera that's waiting for me, my family. I mean literally, it was the best day of my life. The only bad plub about it that my dad wasn't there waiting for me.
I want to talk about something else that's really important in your case, and I know we don't have a lot of time left, but you were ultimately fully exonerated, conviction, reverse charges dropped, declared, actually innocent. Is that right?
That's correct?
And so it's amazing Ralph, because I've been doing this work for twenty five twenty six years now, and I talk about it all the time, no matter where I am, I'm always talking about it. And I tell these stories about your case, about all these different cases that I know, because it drives me crazy. And the first question everybody asks me is did he get did the person to man or woman the exonery? Did they get compensated? So
the first thing everybody wants to know. Their eyes get real wide, they say, did the guy get I hope they get and I have to tell them, well, it's not what you think. And you're living proof of that, right because you have gone through almost like another trial. It really it is another trial, just trying to get what's due for you. And in California the compensation statute, and I'm working on getting it fixed. But it's so crazy. Can you explain that a little bit? Because most people
think you get out, they send you a check. Hey man, sorry, we've messed up your life, like, uh, you know, let me give you a little way to get started here, you know, But that's not the way it is.
It's actually the total opposite. I mean California. And it's sadly saying that California, up until recently, their whole exonerate ex generation passes was never there. I mean, the gates open for you, and you know, there's no apology, there's no, like you said, a check waiting for you. There's nothing waiting for you. It's their opening and they just kick you out into the world. You know, I've been out.
As a matter of fact, it's been nine years. On Saturday, October of sixth, it's been my nine year anniversary.
That I've been home, happy, Birthday, Happy University.
Thank you. Up until now, I haven't seen any type of help from the State of California. I've been to hearings after hearing, and every time we go with it's like on the trail because you have these people on the board who are more into denying you, not the compensation, but the truth, denying you. They keep on denying the truth, you know, for what reason, I don't know. I don't know what holds them back from saying, you know what, a mistake was made here, we have to fix it.
But up until this date, nobody, nobody in the state of California have said, you know what, we've done, these people wrong, we have to fix it. And I'm not the only one. There's several individual Xanna Reeves that are here in California where I have been compensated. They're in the same situation that I'm in. They've been fighting for their composition for six, seven, eight, nineteen years.
No I know, and I've read some of those stories and it's really horrible, including some that have ended up going back to prison just because they haven't been able to support themselves. Because they're facing the same thing that you're facing, which is they're coming out and having to tell their prospective employer that they have a conviction even though it was overturned, and then they're either not getting hired or getting fired from the jobs that they know
that they should have. I think as a society, we have to open our hearts and minds, and we have to open our companies. I talked to CEOs and other people in positions of power that run big companies about this all the time. I think there's a lot more openness to this now, to this concept that we need to give people a second chance, innocent or guilty, but particularly if you're innocent, to get back on their feet.
And yet people like Kenneth Foley is a classic example, right, who was convicted of armed robbery in ninety five cents to twenty five years to life and exonerated two thousand and seven, and then denied compensation and couldn't get a job and ultimately had PTSD and all these other things that ended up with a fifteen year cents for a vehicular manslaughter because he was high on drugs or whatever it was. I mean, it's a tragedy on top of
a tragedy. So it's amazing this Stayady's willing to pay all this money to keep you locked up, but they're not willing to pay anything to help you when you get out. It's so strange. What do you and and Rob? It's like to me, it seems like the people sitting on that board their job should be to figure out how to get you this money and how to help you manage it once you do get it. That would
be the job of that board. If I was running it, I would say, Okay, let's make sure that not only are you going to get it, but you're going to know how to invest it. We're going to show you how to you know, I mean because a lot of people in your situation coming out and what you were actually successful businessman already, but many people are not and this is their first experience having a lump sum of money.
So how would you fix this? Because it's crazy. You're literally having to prove your innocence again after a judge and a jury and a prosecutor everybody else has decided you're innocent. How would you fix the system? What do you think it should be?
Well, I think the first thing off the top, it makes no sense to me for you to put a prosecutor on the compensation board. I mean, to me, that's the number one biggest mistake they could do. You know, a prosecutor to me will always be a prosecutor no matter how you look at it. You know, he's never going to go against other prosecutors who probably convicted you and they know for a fact you were innocent. This is a situation that happened in my in my, in
my situation. You know, mister Mike Romos, who is no longer on the board, but I mean this here, Never once did he even take the time to say, you know what, I have an innocent individual here in suddenly, what am I going to do fix this problem? Instead, he was up on that seat being a prosecutor. He questioned me so much in regards to what took place twenty years ago, instead of focusing on, you know what, we have an individual. That was the case with him.
It's important to recognize that there are thirty one states that have compensation statues in nineteen that have none, and even then in some of those states it's only you have to have a DNA proof or you have to have this or that. It's not a streamline system like it should be. I think to me, once you're proven innocent and you're out, there should be there's like in Texas, there should be a very ironically, Texas has the best system.
You get eighty thousand per year for every year you in you get an annuity, and sort of ironic that Texas, which most people would think would have one of the worst systems, actually has one of the best. I know why that is. It's thanks to Rodney Ellis, who was a state senator who passed a bill that really changed it, turned it upside down. And we need to do the
same thing in California. And there are a lot of you should know, there are a lot of good people working on it, and I'm going to be helping to lead this charge to fix it for you and for everyone else like you, because it's absolutely it's disgusting in
my opinion that you are now having to fight. And by the way, not only is it as you said, it's the opposite of what it should be because on top of everything else, you have to make time in your life, which you have enough obligations with three kids, work, struggling everything else, to go and appear in all these
different hearings and everything else. It's ridiculous. There should just be a check in the mailbox for you with your name on it that says, hey, good luck, Sorry this happened to you, you know, looking forward to seeing you succeed moving forward. Hope this helped something like that, you
know what I mean. But man, it's really I think it's so important that you're here and talking about this because that problem has to get fixed, and it has to get fixed at the highest levels, right And I think I'm going to be I'm going to be keeping in touch with you, if it's all right, because I'm going to call on you maybe to have some meetings with some you know, people in positions of power who can who can make these changes, because I believe if
if the people that make these decisions are made aware, which is why it's so important that you're here, they're going to want to fix this because it's it's just it just doesn't make any sense. But I just think people aren't really focused on it. So the more attention we can bring, the better it's going to be, obviously for you and everybody else. So before before we have to wrap up, I wanted to ask you one more question.
There was actually two more questions. One question, how how is your How are your kids doing?
My kids are doing great, thank god. You know. My oldest Andrew, he's twenty four. He has about one more year, about a year and a half left in Long Beach State to complete his major. My second oldest, he just gotta to accept this letter to Long be State and one to chelsetate fulish and also so I mean family wise, I cannot complete one bit. You know, I thank god that I came out. That my wife done such a great job with them in those ten years. She you know,
guided them in the right direction. And now these kids are open and they're they're leading a good life.
It's amazing that that's really an amazing testament to them. And like you said to your wife, because to grow up in that situation without their dad and and to be able to, you know, take that adversity and turn it into we can call it triumph because it sounds like they're they're they're knocking it out of the park. I mean, they're they're doing amazing and that's and it's
also it's also a tribute to you. I mean, you obviously have had a tremendously positive influence on them, so you know, I wish I wish you and them all the best and everything that you deserve before we go, and I know you have to run, but I always like to end the show the same way, which is that I like to this is I think everyone's favorite
part of the show. When I stopped talking, and I just first of all want to thank you again for being here taking time I'm out of your schedule to share your story with the audience here on WRON for conviction, and now I'm going to turn it over to you just for any last thoughts that you want to share about anything. So the microphone is yours, and thank you again for being here.
Thank you well, I just want to take the time, more than anything to thank my family and my wife, my kids, my mom, my dad who was no longer with me, but I mean all my thanks goes to him because he was one of the ones always in the front right with me fighting for this. I also want to thank Justin and all of the California Indusry Project.
Eric Moltop. Eric Moltop was the key piece to exonerating me, to getting me home, you know, and lesson, but at least you know, to those prosecutors, and to take this out there. You know, if you're hearing me, you know, take the time to investigate your cases. Don't just look for a conviction. It's not right putting people in prison as if in that command, you're not only destroying their life, but you're destroying many lives behind their their kids, their families,
I mean, their parents. It just takes a toll on society itself. You know, I was one of the lucky ones who it only took ten years to exonerate me. But there are gentlemen out there who were concentrated for twenty thirty years. Thirty years later, there's not a life out of here for you. You know, everything has changed.
I think that's that's a great way to wrap up. I'm glad you brought up the California Innocence Project. I've had Justin on the podcast a couple of times, I think, and he is a huge source of inspiration for me and everybody in the movement. Of course, right now he's marching to Sacramento to deliver to deliver petitions for clemency on behalf of the California twelve. And he really is just a great, great man. And I want to encourage
everyone to go to California Innocenceproject dot org. That's California Innocence Project dot org. Get involved, volunteer, donate, hold a fundraiser, do a bake sale, whatever your thing is. There's too many people in the same situation that Raphael was in and we need to go get them out. And uh and I will say to you now again, Raphael, and
I'll never stop fighting. There's a there's a ton of good people who care about you and everyone else like you out there, so I know you got to get to work, so I'm not gonna hold you up anymore. But thanks again. I'm looking forward to meeting you in California the next time. And uh and and all my best to you and your family. Likewise, don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you get your podcasts,
it really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project and I really hope you'll join me and supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocent'sproject dot org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction
and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one