#069 Jason Flom with Kim Kardashian West

thing should do the right thing. And that's why, even though I was dealing with corrupt people, I wasn't going to brave anyone to get me out of prison because I wouldn't live with the fact that I braved my way out of my wife's death. I'm not innocent to proven guilty. I'm guilty until I proved my innocence. And that's absolutely what happened to me. Our system. Since I've been out ten years, it's come a little ways, but it's still broken, a totally little trust in humanity after

what happened to me. This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam Today, I have a very special guest, someone who is a change maker in the criminal justice reform movement who I'm absolutely delighted to have in the studio. So Kim Kardashian. Welcome to Wrongful Conviction.

Thank you for having me, so Kim, I'm really amazed at what you've been able to accomplish in a short time, and I'm thrilled to have you as a public such a public voice and face for the criminal justice reform movement. And I'm I'm really interested to find out how you got started on this mission and what you plan to do going forward, because um, I think the you know, the possibilities are limitless. So what got what got your intention? I know there was an article or a video you

saw a Twitter like sort of serendipitous. Yeah, that's how I think. Just because I'm not on my phone all the time, I'm not on Twitter all the time, it happened to be that exact moment that I saw a video of Alice Johnson pop up on my feed. That's someone that I followed, retweeted, and I just my heart broke for her and her story just I connected with it for whatever reason. I just felt like it was so wrong and that if I could do anything, then I wanted to try. I truthfully didn't know I was

going to get that far. I was about to ask you that, like, what did I mean, because it's such a crazy thing, like the idea that you like, getting someone out of prison is you know, I mean, like it's like trying to catch lightning in a bottle, right, So you were like, I got you, just you you had to do it, and I had that to do it. Yeah, I mean, it was just a feeling that I was like, I have to do it. And so you know, she's she's a woman. I figured Ivanka I would totally understand

and feel the same thing that I felt. So my first call was to Ivanka, well wait, let's go back. A second came because can you explain the circumstances of this case, because it is maddening when you know what happened to Alice, and but at the same time, it's really scarily typical. I mean, she is not a unique case, but you know, she probably about three thousand analysis. Oh yeah, there's so many people that are in her situation. It's just in her situation. So yeah, so she was a

part of a drug conspiracy. She had a great job, worked at FedEx for ten years. Um lost her job, had five kids, her youngest son died. I'd um had to make money, had to feed her kids. Somebody told her, Hey, if you're the phone mule, and if you answer the phone and be that you know connection, you can make a thousand dollars every time you entered the phone. So she didn't do it often, but did it um enough. She didn't know who the people were, she didn't know

the quantities, she wasn't never touched the drugs Tennessee. Right, So, and there's a I have a lot of experience in Tennessee. But so let's just think with this because there's almost an element of My favorite book I've ever read was Lame Aser Rob and it's sort of informed, and I think it influenced me to get started on this life, this mission of criminal justice reform, because there's an element

of that. Right here. You have a mom who had a choice, like she was having trouble feeding her family, and that's so powerful, right, I mean, there's not probably nothing more powerful than a mother's love. And I'm not excusing her behavior because it was technically illegal, but put let's put ourselves in her shoes for a second. Right, there's an interesting choice. So you're faced with she wasn't a career criminal, never had any nothing in her history

of anything criminal. Her whole family, no one had a criminal record, really good support system, really good team, made some bad choices, um everyone else because it was this big conspiracy. Everyone got caught, everyone got in trouble. Everyone I think pled guilty in and out of jail. She I don't know what their exact sentences were, but she pled not guilty, went to trial because she was like

I just I was just answering the phones. I didn't even touch the drugs, see the drugs, know the quantity. She knew it was drugs, but didn't ask any questions. And she got life in prison without the possibility of parole. And it was so crazy. And that's an amazing thing too. And we there's so many um interesting parallels right in the way that you and I got started on this, And I want to go back for a second. We'll

come back to Alice. But you wouldn't necessarily know this, but both of us have famous fathers who were lawyers. Both of us did some crazy stuff when we were kids that we know, and I've seen you talk about this, which is why I'm referencing it. Both of us are aware that we could have gotten in real trouble for things that we did when we were kids, but they weren't. We weren't in that situation, right, and we were able to you know, we had good guardian angels or whatever

it was, right. So there's you know, there's a little bit of it there. But for the grace of God, go I right type of situation when you see somebody like Alice. And both of us got involved in this because of cases that we learned about in the media. Because the first time I got involved in the case was a guy I read about in the newspaper. And this is where the media can play such an important role. Who was serving in fifteen years of life for a

non violent first offense cocaine possession charge. And once again, that's fifteen years the life for a non violent first offense cocaine possession charge, right, And so um I ended up a long story short sitting in the courtroom holding his mother's hand when we got the judge to reverse the charges or to to reduce the charges, I should say, And he was freed after nine years of a mandatory fifteen.

But in her case, it's so important what you're saying and what you're doing with Alice, and it's so important that she's such a wonderful spokesperson because of the fact that people need to understand that in these cases, the least culpable person, which in this case was her, ends up with the longest sentence. Why because a they don't have information to trade. They probably went to her and said, Alice, tell us who the kingpin is. She had no way of knowing. And they also went to her and said,

plead guilty. Now. Then then she's sitting there going, well, wait a minute, I plead guilty. They probably offered ten years or something, right, and she and who wants to make that choice? You're seeing there? But I just answered the phone and I have a family to take care of and whatever, and so you plead innes and then they throw the book at you. And that's exactly what happened.

So this the case that I've looked at from like a case about Centoia Brown, like so many people that I have looked at that have gotten life It's all been in Tennessee. Everything that I've gravitated towards has all been in Tennessee. And the story I was just telling you about Nora Jackson, my U you know, who's become family to me in a very real way, that was a Tennessee case. She was actually in the same prison

with Centoia for a period of time. Um so, Um, Yeah, Tennessee is, but it's not the worst state, believe it or not. Oklahoma recently passed Louisiana as the state that incarce rates the highest number of people per capita. And and let's talk about that for a second. Came as we were talking the studio earlier. Right, America incarceerates five times as many people per capita as the rest of the Western world, So that means we have of the world's prison population, but we only have four point four

percent of the world's population. So that can only mean one of two things. Either Americans are the most evil people in the world, or we're doing something really wrong because these other countries don't have problems with crime rates or anything else. It's not it's just not a deterrent. It's not. It's just they have a more humane policy towards their own people, and we are the incarceration nation. And then the numbers get even worse when you get

inside of him. And now that you've had this experience, I know you went to a woman's prison and spent and then you didn't go there and wave and leave. There wasn't a photo op, right you were there. I heard the story, so it was it was fascinating. Honestly. I after after Alice, I thought to myself, well, if someone murdered someone, what I fight hard to get them out? Thinking that, you know, to myself and having those conversations with my family members and my husband and right violent

versus non violence. Yeah, and I thought, you know what, probably not at first first thought. After going there and hearing these women's stories, I was like, you know what, I absolutely would. And I know, you know to some people that might that might sound crazy, but hearing the circumstances that these women have been in that have led them to the journey of where they ended up for so many people, um just self defense and being getting

life and it was so like heartbreaking. I never thought, you know, And I'm so glad I went, and I can't wait to go back. Wow, what a thing is to think about that for a second. Here's Kim Kardashian going, I can't wait, and you say I can't wait to go, And if most people feel that and then go to me, I guess, let's guess the top ten guests win whatever. Right, prison wouldn't be most people's guests. You would want to go. You can go anywhere, you can be anywhere. You're Kim Kardashian.

But I thought, I mean, I text my whole family on my way saying, you know, hey, guys, I won't have my phone for a few hours, so you know, the kids, if anything, if anyone needs anything, you know, just whatever, I'll be back in a few hours. And they were like, well, where are you going? And I was like, oh, I'm going into prison. And they were like, what where are you going? And I was like, I'm so sorry. I forgot to tell you guys. You know,

I'm just going to check it out. I want to hear these women's stories and I just I'm just going, you know. And um, they were, you know, fascinated, and Chloe had said, wow, I wish you told me. I would have gone with you. And my mom is traveling and she was like, you have to fill me in and tell me everything. And it was just it was

a moment when I walked in. I mean to see when I would walk down the halls and the women were banging on the windows and sticking their heads out of the windows, like the place was practically shaking, and everyone was screaming, Kim's here, Kim Gardashians here, are you going to get us out? Get us out? You know, because after Alice and and it was it was a crazy, crazy experience, and but so it so normalized it for me just sitting and talking to these women that I

totally understood them. You know, Kim. Bryan Stevenson, who's a hero or a great hero of mine, um has a saying he says, and he said this so powerfully and his Ted Talk, which I recommend everybody watch. He said, I believe everyone's better than the worst thing they've ever done. Now, I'm not somebody who believes we should just open the doors and everybody should go free. And we're national laws.

I think we have to enforce laws, but we have to make the laws humane, we have to make them sensible, and we have to reverse this mass incarceration. We had three hundred thousand people in prison thirty something years ago. No, we have two point two million, like we have. And inside the number right you have and you touched on this, right, there's so many women in prison. We have tcent on the world's prison population. Were thirty three percent of the

world's female prison population. And going back to Oklahoma, they have double that per capita, right they have. They over index the rest of the country by double in Oklahoma. And your head's gonna explode. But I tell you this right in Oklahoma, and we're working on this now, trying to make a big change. But in Oklahoma, if you're pregnant and the baby daddy beats you up, whether it's a boyfriend, husband, lover, whatever it is, you are guilty of endangering the welfare of a child and you can

go to prison for life. So it's crazy for being beat up. And you don't have to have instigated it, you don't have to do it. You could be stuck in a room, doesn't matter. Like that's how crazy the laws are. And then there's all these women who were in prison because they were like Alex Johnson, they were the low level person on the team on in some sort of quote unquote conspiracy. Right. These are not big

drug dealers or kingpins. These are girlfriends who answered the phone like she did, or who were in a car when their boyfriend, their dealer boyfriend got pulled over, like Kembas Smith, who I got President Clinton to grant clemency to all those years ago. Um who just showed there was a woman that was not even in the same county when a murder happened and the boyfriend blamed it

on her. And I don't know her exact story, but she got life because he probably rated her out and it was you know, there was no physical connection to her being there, and she was pregnant and had the baby in prisons, never seen her baby was thirty years ago. She wasn't even there in the same county. And I've heard those stories before too, and it's it's so strange to me why we treat our women this way. And then there's there's I mean, we could talk about this

literally for days. There's there's shaking baby syndrome, right, which is there's hundreds and hundreds of people, maybe thousands, in prison for shaking. Maybe if a lot of them or women care takers, they're even babysitters whatever. And these babies died of natural causes. It's crib death. There's no such thing as shaking baby syndrome. It's a made up thing. You cannot shake a baby, and almost every top neurologis

agrees on this. You can't shake a baby hard enough to kill it, to rattle its brain without breaking its neck. And then these babies that broken necks. Think about it, it's ridiculous. Your brain is not that soft. I mean babies, you know they didn't. It's crazy, right, So there's there's a whole group of women who people would say, well,

she's a murderer. No, actually she's a woman who lost her child and now she's in prison for life because some over zealous prosecutor or some other thing went wrong in the system, and now they're stuck in there forever. And it's like and Michelle Murphy, who's who I'm extremely connected.

I call her my knee. She calls me uncle. It's an Oklahoma case who was convicted of She's been on my podcast, on the same podcast that you are sitting here like you are now, um, And we were on the Doctors together, and Michelle was convicted of murdering her fifteen week old baby um and she was green usually framed, so but she served twenty years of a life sentence, and she before her conviction was overturned with prejudice, which is like the strongest that a court can say this

was wrong. And the judge after she was exonerated said that in his four decades on the bench it was

the worst miscarriage of justice he'd ever seen. So, you know, there's there's a huge number of people, and then they're even the ones, like you said, who were self defense cases right where most of what I said, like I understand, I obviously don't understand the act of you know, killing someone, and but the act of if you are getting abused and you have children and you're protecting them and you fight back and the person dies and you're you have

life because you've been beaten for so many years. And I mean so many of these cases that of these women that were sharing their stories with me, just I I felt them, and that just you know, I feel like even just hearing about all the programs in prison and really how to get people back on their feet for when they get out, there's so many flaws, Like I was like overwhelmed leaving, thinking like, well, I don't even know where to start, Like there's so much wrong

with the system. I don't even know where to start. But you did start, and you are starting, and you're here now, and that is making a huge difference, just the fact that you're here and that you're able to use your voice and learning. That's why I wanted to go, because I was like, I don't have any connection to prison.

I've never been to prison. I don't I want to go, and I want to see what it's like, and I want to hear from people that are living it, what their experiences like and what could change what you know, just I'm learning, I'm learning as I go. I think it's so important, you know, to highlight the idea that you know, both of us got involved in this stuff because of stories we you heard about it on social media. I heard about it in old media. Right, it was

just a newspaper article. Right, I was holding into my hands. Right. Some people are there like, wait, what's that? But you know, it's so important if you know someone who was wrongfully convicted or who is serving an unjust sentence, you must talk about it. You must call reporters, you must reach out to whoever you can think of, because you never know, talk about it to your friends, and at dining there might be someone at the next table who knows someone

who knows someone. The world is actually small that way, and everybody has the ability to make a difference, and you know, and it needs to be done. I mean, it's so easy for me to empathize with the people who are serving these sentences and to just sit there and go I can't I literally can't think of anything worse than it's the it's the worst when I mean, yesterday I had a call with UM, a gentleman that's in prison for um a drug case, got life. It's

so unfair. He's thirty years old, he's been in for almost ten years. Was a marijuana case, right, yeah, yeah, he had UM his prior conviction for it to get him to his three strikes was marijuana and then marijuana with less than half a graham of cocaine possession. That's like a Sweden low package for people who aren't familiar. That's like, that's literally like how much is in a

Sweden love? Like less? Maybe a little lesson that got life and I was on the phone with the judge that sentenced him to life, who resigned because he had never been on the side of having to do something so unfair, and now he is fighting with us to get him out. And it's just, I mean, when you see it, at least it gave me such hope that the jet like you think, it was a mandatory sentence that he had to deliver, and he knew it was so wrong, and he was like, I'm going to make

this right. I'm gonna step down and I'm going to help to fight to get him out. And I spoke to him on the phone from prison and it was, you know, just a really crazy. It's just there's so many people like him, and it's so important what you're saying. And because of the fact that these mandatory sentencing laws. And I got involved the first organization I ever got involved with his Families against Mandatory minimums. After I got that first guy, Stephen Lennon out, I was hooked, like

your hooked now. And I love seeing it in you because you're young enough to be my own daughter. And so it's so exciting to see another generation um and and it's this movement is growing so fast, and we're going to turn it upside down. We're going to there's no stopping. And so the first thing I did, after having that cathartic experience of sitting there holding Mrs Lennon's hand as her son was as a judge, you know, slammed the gabble down and ruled that she was going

to be free. He was he was to be freed. I did some research and I found out about this organization called Families Against Mandatory Minimums, and they are a wonderful organization that has done fantastic things. I've been on their board now for twenty five years, so I'm like a true believer. But they've been we've been reversing these mandatory sentencing laws, state by state, federally um as you know, as much as we can, as many as we can,

and we're never going to stop until there's fairness. And it's interesting because, you know, it really struck home to me what you said about this judge saying I couldn't believe I had to send like that doesn't make any Yeah, And so you know, it's interesting because the history of mandatory sentencing laws is that originally they were my understanding as they were passed because Congress thought, well, it's not right that in some cases a different judge for the

same crime might send somebody more harshly or or leniently. Um, And so they were trying to make it, you know, more of an even playing field. But then they just started going, well, had the tough on crime here, Let's just make tougher and tougher sentences, show how tough we are on crime. They started passing mandatory sentences for everything, and they made them tougher and tougher without any regard

for what they were doing to society. And so you end up with a situation where in two thousand I went to the Senate and I did a presentation for the Democratic Policy Committee in the Senate. Twenty four senators there, and I went. One of the people I went with was I went with Amy foul Full. It was a woman who I convinced President Clinton to grand prommency too um and Julie Stewart who runs Families Against Mandatory me

and it was the founder of Families Against Pantory. And federal Judge Castillo came with us, and he was the vice chair of the U S Sentence in Commission. Big, powerful guy, a guy you really think like looks and act like you would you'd cast him as a judge. And he said, you guys confirmed me unanimously to do the most difficult job that anyone can have, which is to sentence another human being to prison, and then you

took away my ability to do it. He goes, I just sit there and look at a chart, and then I just have to sense people to these crazy sences, regardless of I think it exists. If you that's what it is. You see, if I I got a list of some people that I was going to meet with and I just read their sentences, and I would have thought, no, there's not a chance, I, you know, would ever think that this, you know, like not even knowing their circumstances.

Then you come and you meet these people. What's on paper and what's in person is so different, and that is the hard part is just I mean, you obviously can't get to know everyone and and go around to every prison and meet people and help everyone. I mean, but like the the laws really just have to change.

And I do know that. I do talk to the White House um often on this subject, um with Jared Kushner, and he is really passionate about change some of these laws and getting a lot of bills passed, and hopefully

some thing's will get past. I'm just I'm hopeful. Well, I think there's a lot of movement in the States, and I'm gonna say I think that if we could get too involved in isolated cases with state laws, no people in prison America and state prison right, so the you know, the federal Uh, it's going to move much slower in the federal level for the time being. And it's very important to work on the micro and the macro. Right.

The micro is its the Alice Johnson's of the world, the Stephen Lennons of the world, the Lenny Singleton who I was had the thrilling experience of walking out of prison in Virginia a few weeks ago. Um. But the macro is changing these laws so it doesn't happen to other people. Because if you're listening out there and you don't think it can happen to you, it can happen

to you. And by the way, be aware, like if you're riding in a car and someone else has drugs and you get pulled over and nobody takes responsibility for it, it it belongs to everybody. If it's in the glove compartment and or the or the trunk or under the seat, absolutely you can be just so you can get caught up. If you think this can happen to you, it can happen. I was when I was talking to Chris Young, who's who's in prison. He has um sickle cell anemia, so

he's had to have a few surgeries. So he's been in a medical facility for a few years. And he goes back into um the maximum security prison where lifers have to go, and he's so like he's had a perfect record, and he was saying, like, I can stay out of trouble in here, but going in there, I'm you know, they're stabbing, there's this, and if you're near that,

you can get in trouble so easily. And I you know, he was just didn't want to get caught up in a situation that had nothing to do with him, but could very much have by you know, the close proximity have so much to do with him, and it's just, you know, it's scary when you, you know, have a minor drug charge, but then you get life and you're stuck in this crazy maximum security prison with murderers and and people that you know, just it's a completely different

environment than the environment that he's so used to. Life in prison for a non violent offense. And there's no other country that does that. I mean, it's so nuts the way we treat our own people, you know. And I talked to politicians and I'll be like, well, you know, if another country treated our people the way we do, we'd invade. Like, you're not getting away with that. You

can't do that to our citizens, are you nuts? Put him in these gulags, these violent places where they were that breed disease and and and you know, abuse, all kinds of abuse, physical, sexual where there's stabbings and you you're to basically just try to stay alive. And some of them are privatized on't even get me started on that.

No other country would do this, but we do it to our own citizens, who are just regular people until one day they're caught up in and the next thing you know, there they are, and it's like, you know, people just sort of forget about them. We can't forget

about them. Okay, let me ask you something, So can you describe that feeling like when you found out that Alice was going to go home, and you knew that you had a lot to do with it, right, that you were really the driving force behind giving this woman, this lovely woman by all accounts everything I've heard about her her life back like, I mean, that's not exaggeration. She was going to die in prison? What was that? How did you find out about it? Number one? Where

were you? What were you doing? Was it hot? Was it cold? What were you sitting down? Did you scream? And how did it feel? Can you explain that? Yeah, I was on a photo shoot with Stephen Klein and it was a very racy photo shoot. I'm like practically naked and my phone rings, and I knew that I should be. I mean, it would have been this really long roller coaster of is this going to happen? Is it not going to happen? You know, after I had

gone to the White White House. So we're definitely against you. Let's just say that, yes, um, and then get a phone. My phone rings and it says unknown and so I'm like, give me a you know, get me a robe, hold on, stop, you know, And I've run over and I answer the phone and it is the President and Um, he let me know himself that he was going to release Alice and he was signing the paper right then and there, and UM, I just was like in shock. I was

just so happy. Scream Did you cry? Um? I didn't cry until I called Alice to tell her myself, And UM, you got to bake the news to her. Yes, I got to break the news to her, and UM, it was just it was crazy because so I spoke, you know, to the president. He let me know, um that that was what was going to happen, and he was going to sign the papers right then and there and she could be released that day. And you know, I didn't know, does it happen right away? Is there a process? Is it?

You know? What is it? So he was gonna let her go, you know, he told me she can leave today. So I called the attorneys. Um. A woman named Brittany was really heading it from Buried Alive, the organization Buried Alive. So her and I have been in contact of how you know, with Chris Young, who I'm you know, working with now and all these other people. She really brings me people that you know, she really was backing Alice for you know, years and helping Alice. So Brittany, M

Brittany Barnett and what's the organization? Because I want to be buried alive. Yeah, buried alive. So, um, she's been amazing and so so great and has brought me people that she thinks that I would really connect with, like Chris and um, she's been great to work with. So she I call um my attorney Sean, who connects me with Brittany, and they call Alice, and so Alice says that she got, you know, uh on the loudspeaker, like Alice,

come to hear you know, phone call. So she gets on the phone and she assumes that it's a regular attorney's call. I mean, she obviously knows that I went to the White House and we're just waiting. And I filled her in right after I was done with the White House on how the conversation went. And I said to her, you know, it couldn't have gone any better.

I know, I gave it my all. I feel like we gave an amazing pitch and I feel like the President hurt us and did feel like she had spent her time and I felt that and so I felt really confident. And I'm the type of person, where like I don't like to get excited. I don't overspeak until something is done and ready and you know, finished, So I didn't want to get her too excited. But I

knew it went well. So then, um, I didn't know what happened this quick and um, because it had been about six months of me talking to Jared Kushner and and getting this all happening. It wasn't a quick overnight thing. It wasn't like Kim called, she got a meeting, did this happened? Did not happen like that. It was a long time getting her file together and a lot of

fighting for her. So, um, Alice gets on the phone and I thought that the attorneys had told her already because I was just jumping in the call and I thought we were just going to have the celebrate, celebratory call. I had no idea. She didn't know, so she wasn't like screamed. She wasn't and I know her, I feel like she'd cry and be screaming and thanking me. And she just was kind of like, Hey, what's going on?

What's up? And I was like, oh, it's Kim. I'm on the phone, And she was like, Hey, how are you? And then I said, oh, wait, you don't know, because I was so shocked that she was so calm, and she said no, no, what And I said, Alice, You're going home, and the screams and the cries and that's when I cried. It was like three minutes on the phone of like tears, no one can speak. And then finally she was like, Okay, well what do I do?

Where do I go? Like, and I was like the attorneys jumped in to tell her the protocol, but yeah, it was just it was such a cool thing, such a cool moment. I was like, Okay, this feeling. If I used my resources to make this happen for her, what else can we do? Was that one of the happiest moments in your life? It really was? It really really was. Meeting her was was another one. Just just seeing her family, seeing because you can hear about it and like, like I was talking about on paper and

in person. I when I saw the video of Alice, that's what changed me. If I were to just hear the story, I would definitely feel something. But when I saw her, heard her talk, saw her eyes, felt her soul and what her family was missing out on, and her missing out on her grand babies and her parents dying and all this stuff. Yeah, her great grandchildren. I felt like a connection, like, well, I have all you know, I have a big family, and I would be devastated

if something like that happened in my family. So meeting her family and seeing that all come to life and and like what you were saying in the studio earlier, she didn't even know have a cell phone before seeing her figure out an iPhone and how to you know what an emoji was, and like the simple things that was really crazy to just she just wanted to do

the simplest things. So you know, it's interesting too. It's another parallel because UM many years ago, in two thousand, UM, I was fortunate to get to have dinner with President Clinton. UM in a group, but I was at his table and I got him to talk to me about the drug laws, and you know, he admitted they were wrong. And he said, you know, I think if someone breaks the law, they should, uh, they should go to jail, but the shouldn't spend the best years of their life

there for a non violent fence. And I was like, okay, so we agree on that, and I gave him a letter, uh from a woman who he had He had granted a few clemencies up to that point, and I gave him a letter from one of the women he had granted clemency too, who was one of those ones like a crow front of a drug dealer and as an Arkansas case. And he read it and I said to him, Mr President, um, what you did for these five people was heroic, wonderful, but I know hundreds of other cases

just as bad as those. And he said, in front of the whole table, he said, you get him to me and I'll sign him. And I was like, and well then I was like, wait what hold on? Okay, I said, okay, let me just get my wits about me right. The whole tables like, look like, what did you say? And so I said, well, Mr President, when you leave here tonight, you're not I never met him before. I was like, you're not gonna be the easiest guy to me to get on the phone, like how do

you reckon? And I do that and he told me the whole proper channels to go through the Chief Council, the Justice part, the whole thing, right, And so then I worked with families against mandatory minimums and we found cases that fit the criteria that he wanted to see non violent first defenders serving these crazy sentences. And um, you just brought this memory back from me. So thank

you for that, because we and and it took. I had to push a lot even from that point, like it wasn't it wasn't like the next day, Hey, everything's great, you know, but you know, perseverance is an important part of my story. And uh, and ultimately, um, that was only if that was only I think there was September of his last year in office, only had until January. And uh, I think my dad helped me with that. Funny enough, because we ended up putting together seventeen cases. Um,

ultimately more we found more. I think it was a total of twenty three that we ended up asking for. These were all famies against mandatory minimums cases, and he granted two in December. And I was with my dad, the famous lawyer dad of mine, who really put this justice, this this sense of fairness and ethics and morality into me. Um and who you know, was my hero growing up and he's not around anymore, but I happen to be having lunch with him on his birthday, which was December twentieth.

I said, Dad, this is ridiculous. He told me, who's gonna He only gave me two and uh, and my dad helped me at that point forward. He said, I'm gonna I have an idea how to help, and he got involved and you know, connected me with someone else who you know, connected me with don't And you know, it's just like you, like you, you just have to keep pushing and ultimately held President clim Grant the Climacy the seventeen of those people, and you know many of

them have gone on to achieve higher degrees of learning. Uh. Peter and Im got a master's degree from like Kansas State. Kembas Smith is now an attorney in Atlanta. She's a public defender. I believe you got a degree from a lot of reef University of Michigan. These are all people who just needed a second chance, you know, and and my and I hope we can really shift the public consciousness on this together, Kim, because these people are not dangerous.

These are people who just want a chance and they'll work harder. And if you're an employer, you're somebody has a business out there giving somebody like them. A chance when they get out is the best decision you're going to make, because they will work harder and do better because they're so great now. They do not want to go back. They don't want to go back. They've learned. They didn't need these long sentences to learn. They want to have a life and have a chance. And I

have not. I've been knocked wood. I've been very fortunate that of all the people, all the clemency cases I've worked on, state and federal, none of them have reoffended. Um, not all of them, and not all of them are doing fantastic, you know, I mean it doesn't It's still very challenging on the outside. It's what I call the second punishment, right, the stigma that is associated with you know, formerly incarcerated people's system affected people. But so many of

them are doing wonderful things, raising families. You know. Stephen Lennon, the first guy, you know, he ended up having a family. Oh, I think you great, right, So Stephen Lennon Um, six months after he got out, I said this. I was doing a ted X talk from inside a maximum security prison in Uganda in March, and I told this story. So Stephen got out and um, And that one took about six months as well, from the time I first

read the story in the newspaper. And five months later I got a letter in the mail from a woman whose name I didn't recognize in Cincinnati, Ohio. So I was like, I think her name was joe Ane Paris. I don't know anyway, So I opened the letter and it started off, dear Jason, you don't know me, but you've got me pregnant. And that's what I said. I was like, oh, wait what, I'm starting to think my mind's racing. Did I go to Cincinnati, Like, oh my god, right, no, man,

I ever wants to hear those words. And I was like, wait what And so I read on and it says, um, just so you know, my brother Stephen Lennon, and for the last five years, my husband and I've been trying to conceive, and the and the doctor told me that the stress of my brother's incarceration was preventing us from getting pregnant. And I'm pregnant. Just thought you wanted to know. And I was like, oh man, this is the gift that just keeps on giving. So it is, you know,

it's it's such a joy. I saw it in the videos, and why I really wanted to have you on the show is because I saw, you know, I saw an interview you did with Mike and I read uh, you know, the various stories about your involvement and your um, your you know, and your joy just came through uh in

all of it. And it is it's a it's a sense of pure joy and it is it is better than anything I know, um in terms of I mean, we both are are lucky to be you know, I have a family and to have the you know that that's a different category, right, I don't think you can compare. That's a you know, anyone out there who has kids, you know, can relate to that. Um. But if you take that aside, it's hard to think of a better feeling.

I know, for me that day when I got that phone call that President Clinton was headmanted those clemencies, it was, um, the best feeling in the world, the best someone know that you're going to change someone's life forever, and I just want to do more that. I'm going to keep doing it until I am it's on my last breath. I mean, because it's it's a purpose, it's I call it selfish altruism. You know, it makes me feel good. Um. I love doing it. I love talking about it. I

love seeing people like you get involved with it. I love the movement spreading. I love the laws that were changing. And I'm going to you know, look, it's amazing. Thirty years ago, if someone said, hey, you know, marijuana is going to be legal in most of America, I would have said, no, it's not possible. But we fought, like so many of us fought for this, you know. And there's no reason anyone should go to jail from marijuana.

And and that's changing. There's still people like Chris who are in prison for life for marijuana, a plant that's legal. And how'd you like to be him or his family? A little cocaine, a little like a half a Graham? Oh my god, a half a Graham. Let's think about that. Graham is such a small amount. It's like, think about that. It's happy. I don't even know, it's like, um, but yeah, so look, we've got a ton of work to do. Um you you know, we need more of you. I

think we need to. Really. The last point I want to talk about it is clemencies. Um, you have shown um in a very public way that this act of mercy, this act of uh, it's a responsibility really. I mean, the reason governors and presidents are given that power is because they're supposed to do things like this, right, it's there, it's part of their job. And over the years it's declined so much. UM been the post Willie Horton era. All of a sudden, everyone was scared to give clemencies.

And that's not right. And I know that for me, whether it was working with Governor mccauliffe or other governors i've worked with, or during the Obama administration, or with President Clinton, UM, every single time I've had the experience of working with a political leader who's in a position to killos clemencies, in the aftermath, they've come to me and said that it was a profound experience for them. In many cases they meet the people who they've rantham

clemency to. President Clinton told me subsequently he wished he would have done more, you know. And so for people who are out there listening, who may work in the offices of these will do more. I think I think with your support and other people like you advocating, they will and I think we can we can do so much better in the States as well. And I'm hoping to meet Governor Brown and whoever will be the next governor. Hopefully. I'm a Newsom fans. I hope Kavin Newson is the

next governor. But um, but the yes. Governor Brown has express a great deal of interest in this. He's worked, He's granted quite a few clemencies already, and I think he has his heart in the right place. He wants to. You know, he is someone who is on the same page as us in terms of life without parole being

an insane sentence. It's an insane sentence, life without parole, and you know, you know, and I will I said it was gonna be the last point, but to make more point because for people out there listening, you're paying for this, right, I mean, you know who's making money the prison. This is the prison industrial contex, the private prisons. There's a lot of people making money on these inmates, on these these incarcerated people. But you're paying for it.

It doesn't come from the air, it doesn't come from you know, it's not it's like it. And and in some states we spend more money in carswriting Americans and we do educating them and so and then of course the kids end up with no parents and then they're much more likely to get in trouble and so, you know, everything from bail reforms. There's just so many important things that have to be done. But we have to end mass and car serrated. We can do it, UM, and

we will do it together. So for everybody listening out there, you know, get involved UM. Go to Families Against Mandatory Minimums f A m M dot org. Go to Buried Alive dot org, go to UM Innocence Project dot org. Get online, learn about it. The all these websites have pages where you can get involved, post an event, raise money, write letters to inmates. So important, I mean, give a little hope to my reading. Now I don't read books anymore. I I read letters. I get stacks of letters daily

that inmates write me. So I love to read them and go through them and hear their stories and I hope. But all you know changes, Yeah, Well it's those people are you know, those people are smart because they're reaching out. I mean, there's there's a tragically, there's so many people inside who have given up hope. UM, and you know, and at the same time we've we've both had the experience of seeing what it's like when they get out. These people are so full of grace and so full

of you know. The the amazing thing is, for everyone I've met whose system effected form and incarcerated, there's not one of them who's better. They all have this the same thing that I saw with Alice, you know, when she was speaking. They're they're just optimistic and they're um. They have, like I said, this state of grace, and and that puts so much gratitude in my attitude when I see these people who are like they've just been through this ordeal that no one can even imagine that

hasn't been through it. I can't um and I've been around it for twenty five years, and yet they come out like, hey man, let's go. Like you know, I was actually talking to my friend, the artist. I was talking to my friend, the artist Peter Tuney today about a guy named Keith Alan Harvard has been on the same podcast, who was in prison for thirty four years for crime you didn't commit and uh, he has nothing.

But I don't know. There's so many cases that I've been reading about that lately, just completely innocent and just people that have been in for thirty plus years when just DNA testing is so different, Like um, Kevin Cooper. Kevin Cooper tweeted for Governor Brown, I'm like, please, just DNA tests you gotta do. It's like the most just find out whether he's guilty or innocent to DNA, he doesn't lie, you know, That's what that there should just

that is what literally kills me. Stories like his that it's so simple and he could have been executed too. I mean, there's so many innocent people on death row. We know that approximately the best estimates are the four percent of people on death row are innocent. So I imagine that when I talked to people who are in favor of the death penalty, I'm like, well, okay, how many innocent people? Is it okay to execute people? Go?

No, no no, no, But I mean you can't actually, but you know the system is like, how can you be on death row without DNA evidence, with nothing linking you like to It's so crazy to me, that's just crazy. There was there have been executions where we've been fighting to get the DNA tested and they've refused right up until the day of the execution, and Gonda had to execute somebody anyway. I mean, it's um, It's just it is.

There was one in Kansa. There was Kansas last year that we were fighting like health and get this DNA tested, and they just wouldn't do it. It was a guy named adele Um and he's gone now. And it's like the Stag should not be in the business of killing people because we the system is never going to be perfect, even if everybody's well intentioned, it's not going to be perfect.

And for people listening out there, and they've heard me say this on the show before, when we convict an innocent person and we keep them in prison even when the authorities know they're innocent, that means that the guilty person it's free. Just like in Kevin Cooper's case. Everybody knows it was the three white guys that did it.

There's overwhelming evidence of that, and those guys were free to go out, and there's like, I mean, the guy's girlfriend called and said, I mean everyone that makes no sense, Like, wouldn't the community be more scared knowing that there's like some multiple people said it was three white guys and then just to know that they're not locked up and they have a black guy locked up instead, like that fear to me would I don't know. It's so so twisted,

so twisted, and it's and it's not. It's it's very common, you know, in so many of the cases the Innocence Project, when we exonerate an innocent person with DNA, we then put the DNA in the national database and we can often get a hit. I don't know if it's business presented a time and we were able to show who the actual perpetrator was. And in an overwhelming percentage of those cases, that person has gone on and raped and murdered other people, innocent people because they were free because

youth alreadies didn't do their job. And and sometimes there's a mistake. I understand nobody's prayer think that, you know, everyone makes mistakes. That makes mistakes of my job. But there's a not a lot of these cases like Kevin Cooper, where it was obvious from the beginning that he didn't do it, and they had that that that case came with instructions, just like the Central Park five did the Central Park five And I interviewed ud Souf Salama last

week in New York on this show. You know, in that case, they had every reason to suspect that it was this guy, Matthias Rays. They were already watching him. He was a suspect in another similar rape and beating where the Central Park Jogra was almost you know, beaten to death. Blood. They knew it had to be him, They knew it was a single perpetrator. And they rested these five black kids just because black and hispanic, just

because they could. And then the testing came back and they saw that none of the blood matched the blood of the perpetrator was there the seamen. It didn't match any of those kids, and they went ahead and prosecuted them anyway. And then this Matthias Rays guy went out and raped four other women and killed one of them in the apartment with her three children there. She was pregnant. I mean, it doesn't get worse, and she said, can I please just put my kids in the other room

before you kill me? And then he did and he went ahead and killed her. And like that woman should be alive today, and I believe that the authority should be held responsible for her death because they knew who it was, but they had so much media on that case. And that's another thing for people to be aware of when you're on a jury, when there's so much media around a case, and and making a murderer made this point very well too, right, And and you know we

can have a debate about that all day long. But Brendan Dascy is innocent, right, He's totally as he's still in prison. But and that that I wanted to jump through the screen and that watched that movie and strangle somebody.

I was like, if I could jump, I mean so, but yeah, so in those cases, and Kevin Cooper is one of those cases where it's abundant for thirty something years and he could have very well been executed, And there's so many Kevin Cooper's out there, and it has I mean, it has to change where their DNA testing it though I think they're going to finally saw online. Yeah, it's it's like, it's it's a it's a massive problem. Look, I mean we were going to fix it. Um, it's

a huge challenge. But you know, nothing comes easy. I mean here it is, isn't today like Mandela's hundredth birthday or something like that. So what a way to celebrate by bringing attention to this, this amazing cause. And you know came. I could literally sit here and talk to you all day. I see your like a sponge. You're learning so much and such a I don't know everything, and I love to ask questions. I love to listen to stories and just soak it all in and see

what I can do next. Yeah, well we're going to We're gonna do big things together. Um, I can see it now. I'm I'm just as you can tell, I'm so excited that I can't stop talking because I just this is what gets me, as you can tell, most excited, like the thrill of being able to help you know, Noorra Jackson or a Michelle Murphy or and to make a difference in the lives of those people who are just people like you and me, who one day we're just living their life and then the justice system just

collapsed on them. And well, first of all, my listeners know, if you get arrested for something and you didn't do it, don't say anything. The cops are not your friends. They're going to bring you in. They say, hey, we just want to ask a few questions. The only thing you say is my name is Kim. I had to ask you, here's my address, and I want a lawyer. That's it. And then shut up after you say you I want

a lawyer. They they're not allowed to talk to you anymore, but if you start talking, they'll eventually get you to say almost anything they'll say. You'll say you can not the Lindbergh baby if they keep you no long enough and know what I mean. So um, But so for people out there listening, um, you know, get involved, be woke, right, serve on jury duty because it's so important yours, someone else's life will be in your hands. And vote. I mean you have to vote. You have to to learn

about these cases. Look at the d a's races, right, there's such low turn out in these races. Get out there and vote for the progressive candidates because there are people like Larry Krasner who just got elected in Philadelphia, who's gonna turn the system upside down on right because he comes in and he goes, look, I'm not going to tolerate this, like we're not going to lock up innocent people. We're not going to prosecute people for these ridiculous,

low level nonviolent crimes. Pot offenses things like that, like we need progressive prosecutors because they hold all the power. And that goes back to what I was saying, which is that criminal defense attorneys there. It's it's such a tilted system, right, you know, the scales of justice are supposed to be even. But if you're poor and you get caught in the system and you have a public defender who's overworked, underpaid, maybe maybe he doesn't even know

what they're doing. I mean, we've had cases death penalty cases where the divorce lawyer did it or something like that, or like somebody or people who are drunk, or even in Texas, there was a case where the lawyer was

asleep and the Court of Appeals in Texas. Yeah, the lawyers slept and the and the Court of Appeals ruled that because the guy appealed and said he was entitled to an attorney that was, you know, awake, and they said, no, no, you're entitled to attorney, but not necessarily one that's awake. So we've seen cases where the attorney was drunk with the attorney didn't show up. But even in the best case, public defenders are overworked, underpaid. They don't have the resources.

In some states you have five to defend even a

capital case. You can't hire investigators. Going back to what you said before, whereas the prosecutors, Yeah, and the prosecutors of all this power, they're able to decide, they're able to go to you and say, listen, nineties six percent of all felony convictions of America are the result of guilty please, because the prosecutors have so much power, because they can go to an Alice Johnson they say, listen, we're gonna give you life in prison unless you plead guilty.

And you may not have even done anything, but you're public defender. You're looking, You're going that guy doesn't look like that woman doesn't look like they know what they're doing. I'm in big trouble here, Like they're stacked against But you've got all these you know, and a jury comes in with an inherent bias thinking that if you're up on the stand, you must have done something. This has been proven in the study that was done by my

friend Josh Dubin. So you have a really like a Sophie's choice or Hobson's choice, because you know you're you're facing these prosecutors and they have a reverse incentive, which is that they want convictions. They don't necessarily want justice for them because evictions to right, they'd rather have a guilty person out there then and just to get a conviction and get it off their desk. And then they and then they go home and have a nice dinner

and go to sleep, watch a little TV. And it's like, I don't understand the lack of of of humanity, that that's inherit that so, Kim, like I said, I could literally talk to you all day. I I really enjoy it, but I don't want to keep you here all day. And UM, but I do want to. UM. I have a tradition here on Rath convictions and listeners know, UM, they're used to this, and this is my favorite part of the show. UM. Usually it's an ex honoree sitting

where you are, or someone who is incarcerated. Um. But this part of the show is where I shut up and I say to you, first of all, Kim, thank you for being here and taking your time. I know you could be doing a million other things, but for having me and lending your voice to the movement. And now I just want to say, turn the mic over to you and say what if you want to leave our audience, it's with any thoughts at all? What would they be? Just that I didn't know anything going into

this and I still don't know everything. I'm learning so much as I go, but I know that I have a voice and so I am happy to use it. So if you feel passionate about this at all, to anyone just out there listening, there's so much you can do to help, and I just encourage you to do that. Wise words, and UM, I want to once again thank you, UM if there has been a real pleasure for me today, it was nice to meet you. Thank you, Yeah, and

thanks for being here. And uh, once again, you've been listening to a very special episode of Wrongful Conviction UM with Kim Kardashian and Jason Flam don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project and I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot org to learn how to

donate and get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wardis. The music in the show is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam is a production Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one