#068 Jason Flom with Raymond Santana

I originally interviewed Raymond Santana on the very first episode of Wrongful Conviction, which aired it seems like a long time ago on October third of twenty sixteen. I'm so excited to see what's happening for my friend Raymond. Not only is he now an activist, a clothing designer, and an accomplished and celebrated public speaker. He also launched a

I came from a beautiful neighborhood. I had a beautiful life.

I went to sleep because September seventh was the first day of my high school year.

I was going to be a senior. At twenty two, I was set to start college.

I woke up and my life was never the same again.

Cops came out with guns drawn, and I never saw freedom ever since after that.

It's like roach motw Once you get in, you're not get mouthed.

On April nineteenth, nineteen eighty nine, fourteen year old Raymond Santana was arrested and charged with one of the most notorious crimes in the history of New York City, the rape and brutal beating of a woman who became known as the Central Park jogger.

Five youths were arrested at ninety sixth Street, four between fourteen and fifteen years of age.

Police are still questioning some of them the young suspects.

They believe were involved in last night's attack. Immediately following the crime, New York City police picked up Raymond and four other teenage boys. They were interrogated separately. They were denied food, water, and access to lawyers, and they were held for between fifteen and thirty hours until each of them confessed to a crime they did not commit.

And he says, so where will you? And I said well, I saw it from a distance. I was witnessing it, and he said that's not good enough. He said, you have to place yourself at the scene. You have to be right there watching it.

All five of them were convicted. This is wrongful conviction with Jason Flomm.

Its bad.

Oh, it's so bad, Raymond. Welcome to the show.

Thank you for having me.

Raymond. I want to go back and talk about your crazy life story because I lived through it. I'm a New Yorker. Yeah, and I remember very well seeing your face on the front of every newspaper, and you were one of the most hated people in New York City at the times.

That's fair to say, that's correct. You were like the face of evil.

Yes, there is anger over this incident that seems to have only grown in the day since the assault occurred. I also wanted to take them after they get out of Gail and put them in the Gorilla Cajun, the Park Zoo, the New Zoo, see if they could survive it.

I think that's analogous to what they did to her.

The punishment has to fit the crime.

Castrate them. They can't only one problem. You didn't do it.

That's a big problem. That's a big problem.

But I want to go even further back than that. First of all, what's your where are you from? What's your family from? Let's talk about your childhood before this all came down.

Yeah, originally I was born in Harlem, moved to the Bronx.

My dad was from Puerto Rico.

Mother was born here, she's Puerto Rican and also, and my childhood was like any other childhood, right, middle class family. Father works you know, at a hospital. He was there for about forty four years old total. My mom's was a housewife. It was me and my sister growing up.

So you're growing up. I mean you were fourteen years old when this happened, right, correct, Yeah, I mean and when I think about how young that is, many of the audience have kids, teenage kids. I mean fourteen, you're a child. Yes, I mean at fifteen or sixteen, you're starting to become moving towards adulthood, right, but at fourteen, you're a child. Let's face it.

At fourteen, you know, my dad wasn't even thinking about all right, let me sit them down and fill out an application, right, show him how to do that, you know, show him how to take a girl on the date, like that stuff wasn't even coming in yet.

That maybe you shaved once by then maybe not even you're not going on.

Dates yet, You're like eighth grader pretty much. Yeah, I was about yeah, about yeah, seven seventh day. Yeah.

So let's go back to the night of this horrendous crime and this terrible nightmare that you and the other four, the other four guys went through. First of all, you didn't know those guys, did you.

No, I did not.

So the case, let's talk about the case a little bit. So the Central Park jeogra case. The fact is Central Park jogger case. This was in the well, I guess it was in the early nineties.

Right, yeah, nineteen eighty nine and eighty nine, right.

So the crime in New York City was out of control at that time. There was a lot of fear, a lot of panic, a lot of violence, and this case hit all the trigger points because what happened was there was a woman, a wealthy woman from the Upper East Side, white woman, who was jogging in the park at night and was attacked, dragged into the bushes and

Well, it started out because I lived originally, I lived on one hundred and nineteenth Street and like between Lexington and Park, right next to the twenty fifth precinct.

So so ironically yeah right, And so as it turns out.

Some guys that I went to school with lived in tap Houses, which is, you know, roughly about five six blocks away, and that night we planned to go to Shamberg because there was a party there.

That's another housing project.

Yeah, that's where Yusuf and Kevin and Corey they live over there.

So so I didn't know these guys.

Yeah, I didn't know these guys, but there was mutual friends within their group and there was mutual friends within my group. And that's how we came to meet up in front of Shamberg and talk to these guys.

And then from the now, just so for people who are let saying that I don't expect people to know this, but Central Park goes from fifty ninth Street to one hundred and tenth Street in New York and it goes from Fifth Avenue to Central Park West. Yes, this crime happened in the northern section.

Of the park around one hundred and second Street.

Right, So naturally the cops are up there looking and they're looking for, you know, suspects in that area. Yeah, but you weren't. I mean, you were still a good half a mile away at least from the crime scene at this point. So it was at the Schaumberg houses. How did let's get to where? How did you get picked up? Where'd you guys go from the Chamberg House? Why did you happen to be standing somewhere that the cops would happen to look at you and say, let's grab this guy and the other guys.

Yeah, So what happened was that we went into the park, right, and so me.

Just looking at something that was yeah, because.

We was out out there talking.

There was a bunch of guys, and then guys started going into the park in that one hundred and tenth street area, right there on the corner, because that's the corner of the park.

They live right across the street from me, and.

So that was something that they did all the time, Like they always went into the park and hung out in that corner area on one hundred tenth Street and fifth, Yes, one hundred.

Tenth and fifth.

Yeah, so to them that was like their backyard, you know, the Shaanberg boys always was in the park. And so we did go with the park with them, and then from there we wound up traveling to the park. They did walk into the park and they wound up traveling going south into the park. Now, there was some things that happened that night because it was a very large group at this time. You know how many kids We're

And you were the youngest or one of the youngest.

Yeah, I was one of the youngest. And so there were some guys in there who were rowdy, right, and so one guy did get assaulted, who was a Hispanic man, and then I think three people got sorted by the reservoir.

When that happened is when we left the.

Park.

Yeah, it's in the park. And so when that.

Last incident happened with those three people is when the group left, like the guys who I came with, they was like, we're leaving the park. And so as we left the park, we was on Central Park West, like on around one hundred and second Street, and that's where the police came and I got picked up at And so the guys who I came with, they had left, and so I was there walking with a group of people who I didn't know, and so a small group.

And now they grabbed you because you didn't run, Yeah, because I didn't run. And why didn't you run?

Because I didn't do anything, So there was no reason to run. There's a good answer, right, Yeah, I didn't do anything. And so and you trusted the cops at this point, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I never had no dealings with them, I never had no bad experience with them, so you know, it was no reason for me to run, right, And so you know, I just I told himself, well, why are you stopping me because I ain't doing anything, and he pulled he had to walk, he talking, and he hit me over the head with the water talkie. Right, he put me on the wall. So I just did in the wall and I ain't seen anything. And then he also grafts

Okay, so anyway, so they take so they arrest you. Do you know why you're being arrested?

No, I just plant don't.

Do you know anything about the Central Park Jograh situation. It hadn't even gotten.

Out yet, No, no, nothing, because.

We didn't have social media back then. Like that's not like you were checking your phone and there's an alert that comes in from seeing.

It wasn't no phone. I didn't have no phone.

Out, So okay, so now you're just you know what's going on now?

I don't know what's going on now.

Now there was some instance that happened in the park that I saw, but you know, I didn't have nothing to do with that. So so to me, it was like, you know, it's nothing to worry about at.

Fourteen, I mean you're probably not in a great position to attack anybody anyway, you probably do the one getting attack for really.

I didn't at that point.

I was, you know, ninety pounds, soaking ninety pounds, yeah, you know, I was a small guy.

So not nothing real scary about ninety pounds. So okay, So they take you to the precinct in the park. Right, So again for our audience, that precinct is in Central Park.

Yeah, there's a Central Park precinct.

That's what it's called. So they take you to the precinct and what happens next, And so I'm there with because me and Stephen Lopez we got picked up at the same time.

There's another guy, well, Kevin Richardson gets picked up too, right because Officer Powers goes into the park, he chases Kevin Richard down. Richardson down, He hits him in the face with the helmet, he tackles him, he arrests him. And so there's him, and then there's two other guys, Lamart McCall and a kid by the name of Clarence.

So this is the five of us that get picked up. And so we're sitting in the precinct together together.

So you know, you go through like the whole taking to the pictures, you know, like the mugshot.

And stuff like that, and.

Then they sit us in this room and they say, all right, make your phone call and had your parents come pick you up. Because originally what we were given was disappearance tickets right to appear in family court.

So so you know, the charges then were.

Like trespassing, ah, menacing, These are all like misdemeanor charges that they gave us. And so then we just had to sit and wait until our parents came.

To pick us up.

Right, So you called your mom, your dad. I called my dad, right, and then you got him on the phone. I got him on at least.

Yeah, yeah, because by that time it was like maybe like ten or eleven o'clock at night.

Right, and yeah, and again no cell phones back then. I want to take a picture here, right, So you know, if somebody's not home, they answer the phone.

Yeah. I had to call about two or three time because he.

Was sleep Oh okay, okay, So he answered the phone. He must be freaking out.

Yeah, he's pissed off, you know, And so I told him I got to you know, you gotta come down and pick me up and uh he speaks to the officer off so telling me he got to come pick me up. So he says, all right, he doesn't have a car, so they sent they supposed to be sending the car to pick him up, to come down and pick me up.

And so, uh so you're sitting there for hours and hours, yeah, and the time you're probably hungry.

Yeah, all of us is in the room a little bit bigger than this.

Not in the cell.

Though, not in the cell is so okay.

So then so okay, so your dad comes eventually, right.

Eventually, he don't take no or the parents show up. My dad is the last one to come. He shows over my grandmother. They get there like maybe three four in the morning. So he asks what's going on, So they tell him. They explain to him that it's just a disappearance ticket. We have to pay a family court. They're going to release us. So he goes, okay, So he has to go to work. So he tells my grandmother.

I deal with him later. So he goes to work.

My grandmother stays there, and then what happens is that they move us out of the small room into the waiting area with our parents, and they say like they can't let us go because the detectives want to talk to us, but they don't say why.

Now it's three, four or five in the morning. Yeah, then you got picked up at at ten or eleven o'clock. So now we're talking like, yeah, it's a long night.

We're talking like five, six in the morning, maybe even seven, and so, uh, you know, we don't know what's going on. We're just sitting there waiting.

Have you heard about this central part?

Jographer? Still don't know anything.

But you're sure not going to ask a lot of questions after you got hit in the head with the radio.

Yeah, that's right, that's right, that's right. That'll and especially if you know that I'm gonna be released.

So you're not gonna make any waves.

No, you know.

So we're sitting in this weighting room for hours, and detectives come, they talk to Kevin, take Kevin in the room.

And then he's in there for hours. So we don't know what's going on.

Right now, it's eight o'clock in the morning.

It's No. By the time they've done with him, it's maybe like one two o'clock and the.

Afternoon, and you're still sitting there, and we're still sitting They give you anything to eat, No, we're just sitting there, no water or anything.

We're just sitting there, just sitting there, just sitting there for.

A long time, to just sit there.

Yeah.

And so after Kevin is I remember them taking Kevin out of the room and they don't let him come and sit with us.

They you know, they take him.

Straight out straight at the awe the office, and he leaves, he leaves the precinct, and so they called me in next and so I'm sitting there with my grandmother.

So the detective he know, he uh heuh.

He introduced himself as a detective from Bertha or Royal.

Right.

He's in the room and and he says, you know, Raymond, uh, we just want to sit down and talk to you about some of the events that happened that night. And so I go, okay, you know, you know, what do you want to know? And so we go into the whole lot of question of who I was with, who I came with, what did I see, where was I at?

Stuff? Like that, what time did I leave? How did I get picked up?

And so, you know, he doesn't he doesn't say anything to me about the jagga for a while. He talks about just what happened that night, what did I see and who was I with?

Right?

And so I tell him that, yeah, I did see, uh, these guys assault you know, the homeless man, and I did see some of these guys throw at jaggas who were running on the reservoir and and there was one kid who did as salt one of the jaggas. And and based on that assault is when I decided that it was time for me to leave the park. And so that line of question, it goes on for hours, and then you know, he gets he he you know, he says to me, well, what happened to the jaga?

And I said, that's the only woman I saw. There was no other woman.

And so we went back and forth about that for a little bit, right, because he kept trying to, you know, you know, asking me the same questions. You didn't see a woman, jaga, woman was raped And I'm like, no, there was no woman raped that night. I didn't see anything like that. And he said, yeah, of course there was. And I'm like, no, there wasn't. And so from there that's when the line of questions starts to change. Now things get a little more scary.

Still, just the one detective and you in the room. Yeah, and your grandmother, yeah, and my grandmother. But but your grandmother she didn't speak good English.

She didn't speak She couldn't carry a conversation.

She knew curse words, right, she could sit there and curse you out in English words, but she couldn't carry a conversation.

That's kind of funny about yeah.

It is, especially when she used to say it.

It's interesting, right, I mean, your case was based on a false confession. People. I've been working on innocent issues for twenty years, and one of the things people always ask you about how could anybody confess through crime they didn't commit. Yeah, it seems crazy. Why would somebody do that? You basically fucking yourself like totally yeah, right, And I understand it. But to the audience, I think a lot of people probably wanted the same thing. Why the hell

Yeah.

They've got they've got the whole way to the New York City Police Department behind him, right, and they've got detectives, experienced detectives. And you've got your grandmother who can only speak English curse words. Yeah, right, and that's basically the team, that team Santana, right now, that's it, right, You're a fourteen year old, ninety pounds kid. Yeah, and grandma, who you know, may whip out a little English turets, but other than that, she's speaking Spanish and this and then

All right, So what happens is that the line of questions starts to become a little more forceful, right, you know, he starts to get frustrated, He starts to get upset at me. You know, he says that I'm not telling him what it is that he wants to hear. He says that I'm holding stuff back. You know, even when my grandmother intervenes, he tells his Spanish and I'm not telling him everything that he feels like I'm hiding things.

I never had no involvement with the law.

You know, He's a seasoned veteran detectives who do this daily and so and he wants a confession, and he wants a confession.

You know.

By now, this case is on the front page of the newspaper. Yeah, it's the number one thing in New York City. And the press made you guilty. The whole New York City was convinced that these were the guys. You saw their pictures everywhere. Of course, they took the scariest pictures they could find of you, guys, right, make you look like criminals, and plastered those everywhere, and so yeah, you were, you were public enemy number one at this point.

At this point, yeah, and so he knew that even there was a pressure with them to get this confession. And so so for me, what happened was that there's a knock at the door. Right, So there comes a knock at the door, and this detective comes in who speaks Spanish, and he talks to my grandma mother and he says, listen, can you step outside? Another guy and uh, he asks my grandmother can she? Can she step outside?

I don't know what's going to happen.

And then he gives me this look and he says, what the fuck are you looking at?

Right? And you know, there's an apartment that wants to say who me? But I don't say shit. I just stay quiet.

And then and and then he makes like this step towards me, right, and I go, oh shit, this guy's about to kick my ass. Right, But at that moment, there's the knock. Right the door opens, my grandmother walks in, this detective walks out, and so my grandmother sits down, and I'm like, woof, you know, I just got saved, right, And so you know, a royal starts from the top. Okay, who were you with? What did you do? What did you see? What's going on? And I give him the

So he says, is this is scumback? Who did it?

And Arroyo says yeah, But he's not giving us what we want to hear.

And so.

He pulls his chair really close up and he sits down and he starts to talk in my ear, and he's talking real forcefully, and he's not really loud, but you know, I could just I could feel the pressure on my ear from him talking. And he says, you know you fucking did it, You know you did it. You're going to jail, and that's he starts to talk.

He's holding something.

And then he says, well, let's start from the top once again, Raymond, tell me who were you with and what did you see? And were going through the whole story. And by this time I'm kind of beat down. I haven't slept, I haven't ate nothing, and so I'm just sitting there and I'm talking to him, and then comes the knock one more time. Right, the same detective comes in. He says, MS, Cologne, can you come out? And she gets up right, She gets up and she walks out

And at this point he lunges at me, right, and I go, shit, this is it. I'm gonna die, right, And it's precinct.

And so when he lunges at me, somebody stops him, right, So the whole time there was a detective behind who I didn't see. He stops him, right. He says, what the fuck are you doing? Starts cursing, Oh, what the fuck is going on? You gotta give him a classic technique, good cop.

Bad fourteen years old. I don't know that everybody watches listening. Now, you don't know all You're scared. Ship is out of your mind.

See side, Lord Nord, I don't know this stuff. And he kicks you. Get out the room, Get out the room. Get the fuck. Royal gets up, leaves out.

The guy closes the door, right, And at that moment, I'm like, who, whoever this guy is? He just saved my life, right, he's your friend, he's my friend, and you know, and her hope I have Now I have a little hope.

He says, hey, you know, Raymond, you don't know me.

I'm detective hard again, right, and and I hear what's going on, and you know it's a serious case, serious crime. And he goes into like he pictures it so well where he's like, you know, you're a good kid.

You know, I know you ain't do this.

But these kids stay at these other precints and they're saying, you did it.

And I don't want you to go to jail. You know, you got to help me. Here. I'm trying to help you.

You want to go home, right, he just saved you, maybe just save your life and tell you a terrific guy.

He's that's the proof. He just saved me from getting killed in the priests. So I'm like, yeah, he has my best interest at heart. Yep, you know.

And he says, you know, I need you to help me. You got to give me this point. You're like, I want to help this guy. Yeah, this guy's gonna get me out of it.

You know.

So what does he needs you to do?

So so he pulled out this picture of Kevin Richison and he says, do you know this guy? And I said no, And he said, well, this is Kevin and you see the scratch on his face And I said yeah, because he had a munk shot. You can see it, you know, you can see it. And he says, well that that scratch came from the job when she was fighting them off. Now I know, we know he's going to jail, right, you can't do nothing about that. But I don't want you to go to jail. So you

It's never gonna end.

And so you know, for me, you know, I'm a fourteen year old kid, right, what do we do at fourteen? We know how to lie to our parents, all right, And so that's what.

King to mind. My king of mind was lie, you know.

And so I said, well he did it, and so I said, well he did it and he said he did what? And I said, well he raped a woman? And he said, all right, what else did he do? What did you see him do?

Here's a clip of Raymond's confession which was used at trial times. He was.

Kept smacking.

And so I actually sat there and fabricated the story just involving Kevin Richardson, right, because in my mind, that's the only picture you gave me, so he's the rapist.

Well, and you're going home.

And I'm going home and I'm lying.

But so what you figured ou out later on, So what happened was that he said, okay, so what did you see him do? So I said, I saw Kevin struggling with this woman and he took it down and he said, did you see him rape? And I said yeah. And then he said, well, what about Antroon mccraig. And I go, well, I don't know who Antroon McCrae is. And he said, well, ray, you know he was there

You know.

Now, by the way, what's crazy about all of this, on top of all the other stuff that's crazy about all of this, which is everything, is that so we of course find out later that the woman was that was raped by one guy and one guy only, and that they knew this. So here they are right. If they got the right guy among the five of you, they still got four guys that they know that they could not possibly have had anything to do with this.

That's correct.

But they have no problem with that.

But they have no problem with that.

They sleep at night, they go home their families, everything's fine. I never understand that. You don't understand that. So now they got the two guys, they got you identifying the two guys in.

There, and then the third with is Stephen Lopez. So they say, well what about Steven. I go, wow, No, I don't know Stephen. He said, well, he was there, you know, he got to put him in there. He was there.

And so at this point, you're already deep into this tale of lying through your teeth anyway, You're like, and you're more and more tired and hungry and everything else.

Yeah, yeah, well Steven Lopez. You know, I didn't know Steven. Stephen was sitting out in the waiting area and I didn't know who he was. And he said, well, we know Steven did it. And he said, you know this woman, you know, she lost a lot of blood and we don't know she's going to be and we knew that she had all these injuries on it, and it had to come from somewhere. So he said it had to come from either rock, a brick, or a pipe, right,

Case, which we know there never even was a brick.

Then, yeah, exactly, the prosecutor brought in the brick that she said was used to bash the woman's head in the job is headed into the trial, right, Yeah, that's that's correct.

What happened is that she, uh, you know, because of my statement said it was a brick that was used, she brought the brick in during the trial and she presented the brick and she says that this is the brick that was used in the assault on the jograph.

She held she held the brick up and powerful for jury.

Right.

No, definitely, and the and the brick also the next day it was on the front of the New York news day. You know, a brick, A brick had his own front page each cover on the news and said this was the brick that was used in the Jagga case. And so when they did the reinvestigation years later and they test the brick.

There was no blood on it. There was nothing on the brick.

So they just found a brick somewhere and just who knows where they.

Got it from.

That could have been on the way from the prosecutor's office come to the courthouse.

And he picked it up and said, this is it right here.

Yeah, she probably had it on her desk like a paperweight for a while. She's so proud of it, right, So ridiculous. It's so fucking ridiculous, the fact that she would hold up a brick when there was no brick. I mean, we're in imagination land now, like deep into like I mean, that's kind of psychotic. But yeah, I just I mean, at that point, yeah, you're you're screwed. The jury scenes that and they're like, that's the that's the brick.

That's the brick.

That poor woman, these scary kids, a poor woman with a brick. Oh my god.

Yeah, this fight was fixed from the beginning.

This fight was fixed. Talk about a brick ship house. That's not a great analogy, but you know what I'm saying.

Yeah, And so afterwards, you know, he wrote everything down and then he said, you know, all right, you did great. Sign it and then I signed it, and then he said, well I need two I needed two more things for me and then and then you're good to go. And I said, well what and he said, I usually give it the same statement that you have here in front of you, give this to another detective and then do the video tape.

And I said, all right.

It was fine because in my mind, you know, this was the guy who saved me, right, and so he was making sure that I was going to go home.

Right. This is going to be evidence of you not doing it right. Yeah, in your in your twisted mind at this point, which has been jumbled up in twenty different ways, you're thinking, oh great, this is going to be more evidence that will prove that I didn't do it. So how did they even now? It seems like if I'm listening to the podcast, I'm saying, well, okay, but you didn't really say anything that you did it. So where's the confession coming? Right? And so and this was

It's not a crime.

You didn't go to prison for witnessing a crime. Now, okay, okay, So so how's it now? It goes now, it goes downhill fast?

Yeah, yeah, what happens is that?

And even the way he did it, you know, he said, listen, He said, okay, So, so you saw Kevin rape the woman. You saw Steve Lopez hit her with the brick, and you saw Arou McCray was holding her right, And he said, so where were you? And I said, well, I saw it from a distance. I was witnessing it. And he said that's not good enough and I said, what do you mean is not? He said, you know, you can't sit there and witness it from a distance because it's questionable. Right,

Did he offer you anything to eat or drink it?

This time?

And even the nice guy didn't.

Even nice guy didn't do that.

Nice guy came in and said, this is it right here, and and and so, but.

You can see now, you can see daylight. You're like, I'm going to.

Get out of here.

I'm almost done.

I'm almost done. I'm almost done, you know.

Like like Kevin said in the film, he said, at this point, you just have to sell it. And so he says, you have to place yourself right there. You have to see everything in order to say that you saw it.

You know, where were you?

And I said, well, I was there and he said, okay, where And I said I was on the side and he said, what did you do? And then I said, well I reached over and I grabbed the Jagger's breast and he said that's all you did, right And I said that's all I did.

And he said, okay, all right, and so.

And what what possessed you to say that? Because that you kind of pulled that one out of the I did what you told twenty lies already I did.

I did and and and it came from me, uh wanted to be believed that I was at the scene, and then me saying well, this was a lesser role, right, like yeah, because I couldn't say that I held her because I said Antron, did it.

Have you even grabbed a woman's breast by this point in your life, maybe.

Maybe not a woman, a girl. So yeah, so you made this up, right, just to add.

A little yeah, because I couldn't couldn't ability. I said, Kevin raped that, and I already said Steve hit it with the brick, and I race said, Atron held her.

And you you know, I think a lot of people don't realize that once you say that, you're just as guilty as everybody else. Now it's you know, it's a exactly part of the group. Even though you didn't play, You didn't implicate yourself in in hitting her or raping her or strangling her or doing anything like that. But now you're guilty as everybody now, guilty everybody they got you know, now they got me. So now what happens?

And so then he said, okay, you did good. You know, you know, he tells me he wants me to go to another pre stint. He wants me to tell the same story to this other detective. And and then that's what I do. So they picked me up. They take me to another precinct where I sit in the in serogation.

Room with the TV cameras now waiting for you and things like that.

Yeah, well we come out when we go to the presst, this camera's there.

He says.

Look, just walk right in. Don't look at the cameras, just keep walking right in. But I still don't know what's going on.

Yeah, because I'm trying to paint a picture for the ey. He's like, if you didn't live in New York back then, you can't imagine. This was really one of the most notorious crimes in New York history. That means, yeah, and that's a lot of history there, but it was I mean, it crystallized, like I said, everybody's fears of these predators roaming in the park, these scary minority kids who were like super predators.

They that's where the term came from, super predators, right.

They are often the kinds of kids that are called super predators. No conscience, no empathy. We can talk about why they ended up that way, but first we have to bring them to heal.

There is anger over this incident that seems to have only grown in the days since the assault occurred.

For a city that has been simmering for years over the issue of race, This vicious.

Crime with young black defendants and a white female victim. Brings the issue to the boiling point.

And these kids should be made examples for the rest of the country that if you do a crime, you're gonna get convicted. If you're guilty, you're either going to jail or you're gonna hang.

So this point, every cameras out everybody, but you still don't know.

You still don't know.

You don't know, so you're like, okay, so you go through the cameras.

So we go to another Priesson and I meet Detective Mike Shean. Right, Mike Shean was part of Homicide North detective squad, went on years of being movies and be a reporter for several different news stations. And so are going to meet him and we go in the room and he says, look, you know you spoke the heart again already and I said yeah. He says, so you know what we're gonna do here, right, And I said yeah.

Because now you're embellishing the story.

Yeah, because now he's pulling details and stuff and he's asking me stuff and I'm just making stuff up as we go along.

Well, at this point it's easy work for him. Yeah, he could have said he could have said that you that you could have kidnapped the Lindbergh baby.

And I could have been like, yeah, that was really yeah, yeah that happened the same night.

Yeah yeah I did that, the Manton murders. Yeah I was out there in California. Yeah yeah yeah, health skeleter and all that stuff. That was you. He would have been like, yeah, can I go home now?

Yeah?

Right?

And can I get a sandwich at least? So give me a sandwich while I'm telling you this story.

Right, So you would have confessed anything.

I would have confessed anything.

And so at this point he's got you, now you So let's just fast forward a little bit. Okay, So now you're all of this is done, yeah right, and you're taking away to jail yeah too, spot for the detention center, right and so, and you have a sense it's dangerous, definitely, and you're okay, so now how long did it take to.

Get to trial. It took us about a year, almost almost about a year and a half.

So you're in jail for a year and a half way in for trial. Yeah, and were the other kids in the same jail with you.

At this point everybody started to get bailed out, so it was all of us that came in together and we got split up. And then what happened was abody, So Kevin got built out, YUSUF got built out, Steven Lopez got built out, and Troum McCrae got built out, and then I was the last one, and then Corey was on regulars.

Island, so he got bailed out. I didn't get bailed out. I mean the bail must have been high, No, it was.

It started about two or fifty thousand, and then as the months went on it got lowered to one fifty, then one hundred and fifty thousand, and then it finally went down to twenty five thousand. And this was the time when Al Sharpton was raising money to get everybody out, okay, but I don't know what happened when it came to me getting out.

The money wasn't raised, okay, So that's weird too. But mm hmm.

So so then you go to trial.

So they're going to trial, do you think did you think.

You were going to be uh convicted?

No, because at this point the DNA evidence is there. Nothing matches, right. You know, they took handprints, footprints, they took hair samples, they took blood samples.

It took all of our clothes.

And they sent it to the lab and nothing matches, right, So so you know, there's the hope. All right, there's no physical evidence to prove that we did anything.

And so who's your lawyer?

I had a lawyer by the name of Peter Rovera from the Bronx. He was originally handling my father's divorce paperwork and then he became a lawyer.

Right, so you got a divorce lawyer.

I got a divorce lawyer, and fight for your life, to fight for my life. And you know, let's just.

Think about that for a second. Divorce lawyers aren't even good at divorces exactly, know what I mean. I mean, I don't know how many of you out there have been through that, but I have. I don't want to denigate that. By the way, A lot of good divorce lawyers out there too, so I don't mean to, you know, but the fact is that's that's crazy.

Okay.

So, but he was confident, you felt.

You know, you know, when I looked back at it, there was a lot of things that I felt that he could have did that he didn't do.

He didn't fight enough, you know.

And when you tried together, I believe we were No it was me Achoon, McCrae and used to Salam tried together. And it's a media circus. Yeah, oh, definitely. By this time the articles are being written. Within the first two weeks, there were four hundred articles written about us, dissecting our lines.

And again you got Trump saying you guys should be executed. He went out of his way. Then the ad came out of it, took out an ad.

Yeah, he put eighty five thousand dollars on the ad, and the major four made the newspapers calling for the death penalty.

You better believe that. I hate the people that took this girl and raped her brutally. You better believe it because he's a he's an expert on this stuff.

Yeah right, yeah, okay, so he.

Would have executed all five of you guys anyway. I don't think he would have lost any sleep over No.

I believe you know.

I mean even years later when we got exonerated and we went through the lawsuit, he said, you know, it was the biggest heights in New York City history, right, you know you know?

So okay. So so you're now you're going through this trial on the circus the whole thing. You've been in jail for at this point a year and a half, yeah, which is as a fifteen and a half year old kid, Yeah, a pretty big percentage of your life. So now you're there and you're still expecting the justice is going to be done. That's right, because you didn't do anything.

That's right. And you got DNA and I got DNA now so.

You got all this forensic evidence. Yeah, and you're ready to go home. Now it's going to be fixed. And then the verdict comes in.

Then the vertic comes in. And the first trial, the first charge was a hip murder and they said not guilty, said okay, and then from there the rest of the charges was all guilty.

Let's talk about the experience and and and you know, the tension and just thinking about you in that courtroom and waiting for that verdict. And the stomach and the pain and the everything. I can't even That's why I do this work that I do, because I can't imagine what it's like to go through this. Nobody can if you haven't been through it. I'm amazed you're here smiling, laughing. You know, got your Park Madison shirt. Yeah, yeah, fashion line Park Madison, NYC. I want to put it a

They shipped me to go Secure Sensor and I served five years there and then they shipped me the downstair correction and then I got released from there.

I mean, you say so casually the five years there like five years? Imagine five years at the holiday inn would be torture, right, I mean, and this is not the holiday in this is we're talking violence, terrible food, loneliness, all the stuff, noise, all the stuff that goes with it. So you get out and now you find out that your prospects for getting employment are basically zero.

Like I filled out separate applications, nobody will hire me.

You know.

There's that question that says, how you have been convicted of a crime, and you go yes and don't even get a called back, and then somebody said, well, just put we'll discuss upon interview. And then I said, all right, let's try that, and so you will discuss the point interview. And then they call you in and say, well you went to jail and yeah for what?

Right?

Oh, now you know and you're a register registered sex offender.

And then if somebody does say, okay, well you know what, you went to jail for rape, things happen, Well what happened?

And then you go to Centrapauk jagged.

Cakes and they're like, okay, okay, well we're just closing up for the day. We'll get back here as soon as we can.

Yeah, because now you're a level three or level one like you're like the highest level of a sex offender there is.

And so that's so there's nobody's hiring.

Nobody's hiring nobody.

So you still got to feed yourself somehow.

Yeah.

So what happens is that at this point I just for me because now it started to take a toll on me, right that I was in society. I had nine o'clock curfew, seven o'clock curfew. I couldn't get a job.

Basis, all for your cop you gotta be yeah yeah, yeah. So so you got a lot of PTSD type syndrome symptoms and then and then so you got mixed up in drugs a little bit.

Yeah yeah, So for me, what happened was that, you know, you know, these guys on the corner, they get a lot of money.

I can see it every day.

They're sitting there and they're doing what they don't have to do it, and and and in my mind they was like, well, you know what, I don't have to fill out an application for that, right, Oh you have to go to a job interview.

I could just come out there doing it.

Now. By the way, you have to understand, I believe that drugs should be legal, and it should be decriminalizing, taxed, and regulated. I've been working in that field for twenty four years, even longer than this, so you're gonna find me very sympathetic on this particular subject, you know. But that being said, so you got arrested.

Yeah, oh yeah, So I got arrested with UH and I was charged with criminal possession with the intent to distribute. And so you know, for me, you know, I had a high bail, right, I had a parole hold, and I knew I was guilty of this case. So it wasn't you know, it wasn't about sitting there fighting the system. It was just about give me something that I can handle because I knew I was guilty.

And now you're an adult, and now you've been through the system, and there's nothing they can sure you that you haven't already seen. That's correct, right, not as scary.

Not as scary, right, And so you know, they gave me a three and a half to seven year sentence and I said, all right, I'll gladly take that because I was guilty.

And this is where it gets really interesting. So you're back in prison, this time for something you did do and a crazy thing happens.

Yeah, crazy guy named Athias Rays, guy named Tayus Rayes who's serving the thirty three and a third to life year sentenced for murder and several rapes. It's sitting in prison with Cory Wires. You know, Corey Wi, one of my cou defends who was at this point, he's in his thirteen and a half year right, never been released, you know, never, no programs, no nothing, he's just been in prison. And he sees Corey in the yard walking around, and he approaches Corey, right, And he doesn't tell Corey

And so he comes to Corey and he says, hey, you remember me.

Corey says, you know the looks out of him, says we had a fight in eighty nine over the TV, and Corey says, yeah, I remember you. And from there he starts to tell Corey how his faith in religion has changed and how he's trying to be better and do better things in life, and they engage in a dialogue, and based on that dialogue, he never told Corey he was the person who committed the jogger case.

He didn't do that.

He just spoke to Corey and the conversation made him feel a certain type of way that he felt he had to do something.

And so that's where it started.

Where he actually went and he talked to the prison chaplain and this was the first person that he told that, you know, somebody's in this prison for a crime that I know I did, and they've been here all this time and they're innocent.

And then that's how the ball starts to roll.

This is the first time you've heard me shut up, because I'm just sitting here trying to like process this right.

And this guy, like, he didn't just tell the story once.

He told it over and over and over, even until it got to Albany and they had to send an investigator. DA's office had to send somebody to go talk to him and he told them the story.

And so when he was the sole perpetrator, and he was.

The sole perpetrator, he was known as the East Side slasher. All his crimes he committed by himself. All his victims had the same kind of injuries.

And he had been under investigation prior to the Central Park geography.

That's correct, he committed a rape in Central Park. Two days before the rape went the Jagga.

And they had some information that they were looking at him as a aspect.

He had a scar on his chin. The lady who he raped in Essential Park two is before I did him as having a scar on the chin. So one of the detectives who was looking for him, they went to the hospital and they find out who was the last person that has stitches and they foundmentaies rares And so this information came to uh Linda Festin, who was ahead of This information came to Lynda Feresti, who was the head of the sex crimes unit. Around the same time that the DNA evidence from our.

Case came back.

It was about six weeks and it came around the same time that it came back that said that, uh, there was no match, and so she had she had the information on her desk, but she chose not to either talk to us again. She chose not to entertain an alternative theory or on an alternative suspect.

She just chose to go forward with this case.

Yeah, it's what can't you even say about that? I mean, it's like, I'm so angry about it, and I wasn't the one who got victimized here, and there's a lot of victims here, right, the woman who didn't get justice, it's correct, the society who wasn't protected from this guy who truly is evil, yes, and then the five of

That's correct.

That guy is then free to go out and commit more terrible acts against innocent people.

Wanted to commit a murder and I think four additional rapes.

Right, So a murder and four rapes, that's the scorecard of If Ferristein would have done her job, which was right in front of her. It wasn't tricky, wasn't right, It wasn't like this one came with instructions right, And all she had to do was look at it and say, yes, I'm going to do my job, my sacred duty to protect the public and the citizens of which you are one, and I'm going to investigate the obvious lead that is going to lead me to the right rapist in this

Yeah, there's a there's a report.

There's a report that's that's done by the DA's office, called it Nancy Ryan Report. It's about fifty two pages long and it tells you why we're innocent, or the evidence in the reinvestigation as to how we're innocent. Reyes went on to even solve unsolved crimes.

Because they yeah, because they never bought it. Look into other way. Even though he even though it was in a neat pattern, like I said, this one was with it. This one came with instructions. So now so okay, so now as we're nearing the end of this this show, so by some miracle, he ends up in the prison with Corey. Yeah, and he has this moment of he has this awakening and then he has this moment of feeling guilty. He is a bad word in this particular case. But and then he uh, he spills the beans.

He spills the being.

And now you're in prison and you get the word how does this happen? You get the word that you've been exonerated.

Well, you know what happened was they bring me back down and they questioned me, right, they questioned me becau because it's not that simple for them to just let us go to them. Rayes is the sixth man, right to them, we knew each other, We was in cohose with each other, and so they have to try to find a connection, and so they give me all these photos to see if I know who he is.

But I don't know who he is, so I never picked him out of a photo.

And so it's a year long investigation by the DA's office before they actually exonerators.

Wow. Yeah, so they yeah, so they just had to string it out even a little bit longer. But then you do get exagerate.

Then I do get it.

You're in prison.

So I'm in prison.

I get the word that I'm exonerating my dad. I'm talking to my fault on the phone and he says, you know, I said, you know, they keep questioning about the old case. And he's like, yeah, because I got something to tell you. And I go what, And he says, because he's been watching the news and it's all over the news and he sees it and this time he's he's in touch with the lawyers and he goes, you know, they found a guy who did it.

And and I'm like what and he says.

Yeah, they found them. You get me come home. And I'm like, get the fuck out of here. Like I was so institutionalized that I didn't even believe him. I hung up the phone on them, and I said, you know what, I don't even want to talk to you no more. You just ruined my day and I hung up the phone on them, right. And it wasn't until I actually got the call from my attorneys that yeah, you're going to be exonerated.

Well yeah, and then how long was it before you got home?

We got exonerated December fifth, and then I was home. My Lloyd said I'll get you home before Christmas, and I was like, yeah, whatever, and he got me home December twenty second.

And you when you did finally get that news that you were exonerate, then when you actually believed it, Yeah, what happened? Did you collapse? Did you like start crying, laughing, well, jumping?

I cried when I found out about rays, and but I was still in disbelief. And it wasn't until I actually got til I got released. They sent me to Queensboro and then they released me from there, and then for the first time I actually got to see the magnitude of of how much cameras and lights, and because I never really been in that situation, that was the first time for me.

So it was really overwhelming, like it was like, wow, you know.

Well, and now let's just talk for a minute about what life is like. Now. I know you're doing a lot of public speaking, raising awareness, definitely, I know you. Everyone knows that there was a settlement. Yes you guys. I don't think you could ever pay enough for what you've been through. But but you're good now, right, and you got some money in the bank.

Definitely.

I see you've got good style, right, you got your you got your's. You can't see it on the radio, but he's looking good and it got a great smile and so so. And now now you have a family.

Yes, my daughter's twelve years old. I've been married now two years.

Yeah.

So I'm trying to put the pieces together back slowly but surely.

Sounds like you're doing a hell of a job. And I'll tell you something, you know, just just being with you and hearing that story and knowing that you've come through this with an incredible spirit and with an incredible attitude, it's it's really it's an inspiration to so many people. I don't think you even know. And now I'm hoping that with this runflin Fiction podcast will reach a lot more people, many of whom will have heard parts of your story or seen the movie again, the Central Park

Thank you for having me.

Don't forget to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project, and I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is by three time OSCAR