I've never been in trouble in my life.
I didn't even have a parking ticket, you know what I mean.
I was brought up with cops are the good guys.
I didn't know what was going to happen, but I do know that everything was stacked against me.
Everything like everything.
This isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent. I know I'm innocent. I know I had nothing to do with this. How is this possible?
I grew up trusting the systems. I've grew up believing that every human being should do the right thing. And that's why, even though I knew I was dealing with corerough people, I wasn't going to break anyone to get me out of prison because I wouldn't live with the fact that I break my way out of my wife's death. I'm not innocent, too proven guilty. I'm guilty until I prove my innocence. And that's absolutely what happened to me.
Our system.
Since I've been out ten years, it has come a little ways, but it's still broken.
I totally lost trusting humanity after what's happened to me.
This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction. Today, I have two extraordinary people as my guests. Justin Brooks, who many of you will recognize because he's a return guest on the podcast. Justin is the director of the California Innocence Project and a personal hero of mine. So Justin, welcome.
Back, Thank you so much, Susan.
And with him is our featured guest, who is an extraordinary person with an insane story to tell that I think we can all learn a lot from and I'm really excited to hear the whole thing as much as we can get in cause i know it's impossible to share all your saga on this one hour format. But Luis Vargas, I'm really happy to have you here. I mean, as I always say, I'm happy you're here, but i'm sorry you're here, but welcome to the show.
Well, thank you very much. I am also very happy to do this, and I'm an enthusiast about what's to be the result of these type of podcasts. It's a blessing to me.
Well, I'm glad you say that, because I think in sharing your story, the best we can hope for is that people will get a better understanding of just how flawed our justice system is, and how these mistakes can really ruin so many people's lives. And by that I mean not just yours, but all of the victims that were tragically hurt as a result of the fact that they put the wrong guy behind bars when there was a serial rapist on the loose who was out there
are committing heinous acts against innocent women in California. So let's let's get right into it. Luis, Where where did you grow up? What was your childhood? Like bring us back memory, you know, like in the movies when it gets all foggy and you go back to back to the day. How where were you born and where'd you grow up?
I was born in Mexico, I juan A, New Mexico. However, I migrated to California when I was about ten years old. I grew up in south central Los Angels, you know, started going to school, elementary, junior, high, high school, you know, and uh, you know that's where I basically grew up at.
And was your childhood happy childhood? I mean, you know, I know I've had a lot of challenges being an immigrant. Difficulty you weren't in the in the you know, probably in those times. Growing up in the nineties in south central I'm sure it was, you know, a dangerous environment. But can you tell us a little more about that.
Well dangerous it was. I mean I grew up in a single parent household, you know, and unfortunately my mother had to work two jobs to be able to to put food on our tables and keep us clothes, you know, and do all that, you know, try to provide for us. And as we grew up, it was pretty rough.
It was.
It was South central Los Angeles. I mean, it's well known for its crime and everything that happens around it. I started seeking, you know, outside of the home, the things that I wasn't able to get inside the home because of the fact that mother was working through jobs, not because she didn't want to give it to me, but because she was working to jobs. She halreadly ever came home. And when she came home, she came home so exhausted that she thought, I mean, she needed to
get some rest in the meantime. You know, I I along with a sister, older sister and a younger brother. You know, we grew up basically not on our own, but you know, figuring things out for the most part,
you know, on our own, you know. And the things that I was figuring out, you know, I was doing them by searching places where I didn't really need to be, you know, got around, got around the neighborhood, started to know a few kids, you know, groupees, and and you know, before you know it, I was growing up pretty fast. Life on a highway, as they say, you know, and it was it was pretty dramatic.
And you were homeless for a period of time, is that right?
I was? I was? I was.
I was homeless for a period of time due to the fact that I had left home for a while. And when I left home, I was down in the San Diego area, so I was on my own. I was on my own. I was figuring things out on my own. I think about it. I mean, a teenager not really knowing, you know what latch is about, barely figuring life out, trying to make sense of things, you know, and just making doing the best he could have survived. You know, that was me.
And it was at that time that you got a t too that turned out to play a very role that you could never have predicted, that really had a devastating impact on your life. Down the road. But we'll get into that further as we get along in the story. So let's let's fast forward to nineteen ninety eight. This was a time when there was a lot of crime,
much worse than it is now in America. And at the time there was a serial rapist on the loose in California called the tear drop Rapist, And Justin, can you talk a little bit about that and what you know, what what was the whole circumstance surrounding that, you know that that time?
Sure, so there was a serial rapist in Los Angeles. All of the women were Latin women Latina. They were all waiting at Buscot early in the morning, and it all occurred within a one and a half mile radius in a certain area of Los Angeles. The rapists would approach them, ask for directions, and it was a Latino man. And then all these rapes occurred. The witnesses the one defining feature, so just a tattoo was very popular during this era, those of us works of the criminal justice system.
It's seen this tattoo where it's one or two tear drops, and all of the victims described their attacker that way, that it was a Latino man, that he approached them first thing in the morning at the bus stop, and that they with these attacks, and that this tattoo was on the attacker. And so it was very clear based on this very specific MO that there was one guy
who was doing all these rapes. Luis ends up getting arrested and charged with three of these rapes, which when we went back in and started investigating the case, was starting with, Okay, why is this one guy charged with three of these attacks? And by the time we reviewed the case, there had been thirty five documented attacks with this exact same m O.
How many of those had occurred after his arrest.
So that's the crazy part of the story. We went in and we were able to use DNA to match up one of the rapes that Luise got accused of with rapes that had occurred while he was incarcerated, and in fact, one of these rapes occurred while Luis was
on trial and sitting in jail. And just imagine that if if you know your client's on trial for's life for this crime and somebody else is committing the same crime in the same city, in the same area, with the exact same MO and a difficct attorney is getting up and telling the jury, you know, these three rapes all have the same amount, they're clearly done by the
same guy. Well it was the same guy, and that same guy was still committing those crimes while Luise was on trial and after he went to prison.
And do we know for certain that the DA had that information at that time.
So what we do know is that the police department had investigated it so much to the point of that they had what was called a rape book, and they had linked all these crimes together. And they didn't widely publicize this. I don't you know, for whatever reasons they had, whether they didn't want to make people scared or create some kind of eysteria. But we do know that they were in possession of this information, that they had linked this information, and yet that information was not turned over
to the defense. And as you know, it's a clear Brady violation that the government must turn over all potentially exculpatory evidence to the defense. And this was clearly exculpatory, right.
I mean, this is as black and white as it can be. And meanwhile, Luis, you had alibis for at least one or more of these crimes that you were charged with. Is that right?
Yes, I did. I had alabis.
I mean I used to work at I used to be a manager for a Manhattan bagel store right there in North Hollywood, and I used to drive my baker even to work, sometimes at four o'clock in the morning. So one of the incidents where we did present an alabai court was not admitted because the manager at that time that was working along my side, he had written
it down because the time clock machine had broken. I mean, imagine that the iron is right on the one of the one times that I really needed to have solid alabi. You know, the time clock happens to be broken, so he has to go ahead and write it down, jotted down with his his with a pen and hands. So you know, that's why it wasn't at missed. It wasn't
admissible in court. But I did have several alibis, and unfortunately, you know, none of them seemed to be solid enough to be able to hold up, you know, so they still went ahead and convicted me on the just basically on hearsay.
You know, well on as Jason you've talked about many times on this, So you're convicted based on the bad identifications made by these very frightened victims of this horrible crime.
And these identifications were not you know, from my understanding and reading about the case, these identifications were wavering. The
victims were not sure. At various times, they were you know, back and forth, and so even we know for sure, and people who listened to the show have probably heard the Jennifer Thompson Ronald Cotton episode, you know, where as she was described as the perfect witness, a woman who was you know, twenty two year old college students sober home alone and spent twenty five minutes doing nothing but sudying her attacker every detail because she was absolutely determined
that she was going to memorize everything about his appearance and uh and she had time to do it, and she identified him with absolute certainty in a lineup in a muckshot book and a trial, and of course, eleven years later, tragically found out that she had been wrong,
you know. And she's become a tremendous advocate as as he for eyewitness identification procedure improvements and you know, refinements and and and you know, there's just there's so many things that we need to do, and there's many things that we can do to improve that process. But in your case, Luis that it wasn't even that it wasn't even like it was a strong identification. It was you know, they were they were on the fence, and so it seemed so insane you had you had an alibi. The
time clock thing is blowing my mind. And it's interesting too because I'm sure some people that are listening in La you know, maybe may may have been to your bagel store at the time. They may even know you so, but go ahead.
Yeah it look it's interesting because these these descriptions that the young lady gave, you know, which I do feel very sorry that it happened to them. You know, I think they were ultimately, uh not only influenced by all the factors that were surrounding them, the fear, the stress, the weapons, the weapon that was used, the chaos, and not to mention the fact that when they were interviewed
at the time that they were interviewed. I mean, I'm positive that they were influenced by the people that interviewed them, you know, I mean, how could you go from being seventy percent sure okay during a photo expect photo lineup. How could you go from being no, no, no, wait a minute, eighty five percent sure, Okay, eighty five percent sure that I'm within the six pact that you were shown,
then from eighty five you go down. Talking about one of the young ladies that identified me during a photo lineup, first she said she was eighty five percent sure, then she came back and said seventy percent sure. Then ultimately during the trial, when uh, the DA went and asked for her identification, all of a sudden, lo and behold, DejaVu, you know one hundred percent sure that it was me the one, the one that attacked her. You know that is amazing to me, the way things happened like that.
I mean, everything was playing out in front of me as if there was some type of motion picture. I couldn't understand it. On my mind. Was was baffled because of the things that were going on. I was so sure and so confident that I was going to win this trial because of the fact that I had nothing to do with it. I had nothing to do with it.
I mean I was looking at the victims and the witnesses straight in the eyes because I wanted them so badly to identify me, not as the attacker, of course, but as a person that did not have it.
No.
Unfortunately, I was dealt with a blow. I was deal with what at that time seeing a deadly blow because I was I was sentenced to spend the rest of my life in prison.
Fifty five years to life was a sentence. And justin this case has you know, so many really terribly common earmarks of wrongful convictions, right, you have mistaken with its identification. You have exculpatory evidence that was withhold clear Brady violations in other words, in legal terms. And you also had an incompetent defense attorney who didn't call witnesses to the stand that could have and very well might have, you know, influenced the jury in a way where they would have
gotten it right. Which is which is always like that, That's all that always blows my mind, Like, you know, I don't understand how someone can pass the bar and then end up as a lawyer. You have to have a you know, a certain amount of intelligence. Not easy to pass the bar, right you gotta, and and then you end up in a court room and you don't do the most basic thing that anyone who watches TV knows. Call the witnesses who can say he was at a
different place, He couldn't have done this. He was making bagels, fucking bagels. I mean, Jesus Christ, he was shmearing cream cheese on the damn thing.
You know.
He was not raping this woman. I mean, oh my god. So, I mean, so justin, can you explain how does that even happen? Why is that a thing?
I mean, well, first of all, the ID problem is really the biggest problem here. And I'll tell you something even more shocking. We are two decades later and Los Angeles is still using these procedures. Los Angeles has not changed to the best practices for eyewitness identification. And we've changed in San Diego, we've changed in Northern California, but the biggest county in the United States is still doing this.
And what are these best practices? What are those best practices?
So you should never use six packs. So the problems with six packs photo rays are well documented. And every study has shown that when you show a victim six photos, what their brain does is make a comparative analysis of those six and they pick out the person who most looks like the suspect. Now, it does. They may not look like the suspect very much at all, but out of those six, it's the person who most looks like it.
And then they start doing these statistical analysis of you know, what's their percentage of clarity, and it's all completely meaningless. You know, there's there's no way to assess in your life what you're eighty percent or what you're sixty percent sure of, what you're one hundred percent sure of, because memory is so easily contaminated and there's so many problems with it. So the best practice is to show single photos,
one at a time. And more importantly, you cannot have the officers involved in the process who know who the suspect is, because they always give off tells, and even when they don't do something stupid like take a good long look at number three, they do the kind of things that we hear in this case where the last talked about how the witness changed, how sure she was. Well,
that can happen as simple as this. You pick number, you pick letter C, and the officer thinks it's letter C. So they say things like good job, okay, great, all right, we got them, and now they're one hundred percent sure they have the right person. And in rape cases you get the worst ideas because you have now a victim who's very frightened. It's gone to a lot of trauma, who desperately wants this person off the street. So they're going to go along with that because that is what
their psyche wants to happen. They want to be comforted by this that they got the right person, that they're off the streets. So the problem in this country is we have no true national criminal justice policy. Only in the federal courts to the very small part of our criminal justices, and most of it's in the state courts.
No one has control to change national policy, so we have to fight these battles state by state and then county by county, because for example, in Los Angeles, it's up to the District Attorney's office and the chief of police as to what procedures they use. So this is going to be a battle that's going to go on for a long time, Whereas in other countries, like I just came back from the UK. In the UK, they have national criminal justice policies that they put in place
throughout the country. But we've divided our country into all these jurisdictions with all these little pockets of power, and we have cases like Louise.
Right, And this is an interesting thing too, because this is not a liberal or a conservative issue, or a democratic or Republican or this, or that it should be in this case. Is so why I'm so appreciative that Louise is here, because this case screams out for all the people. And we're talking about dozens of people, women who were brutally attacked in the wake of his wrongful arrest and conviction because they stopped looking for the real guy when they got Luise. Even though these things went
on and on and on. It's like, so it's or they took a beat. I mean, they must have started again at some point, but they chose to just not share that information with Louise and his team because they already had him. But they knew that this was the same guy. There was never any question. I mean, you can't have a more dynamic example of a serial a predator. I mean this guy was. I mean, it's unreal. I mean, especially in a one point six mile radius, and that
would have terrified the neighborhood. I mean, but at the same time, you know what bugs me about that is that the authorities should have made this known to everyone, because what about the how would you like to be a parent of one of these kids, or a relative or anything else? And you say, wow, if I had known, I never would have let her go to the bus stop by herself until this guy.
Was locked up.
I mean not a chance. I mean, anyone who's listening who has a daughter, which I do, it's like you would do anything you could to protect that child. Maybe you wouldn't even let them go to school until this was resolved, But no way would you expose someone to a risk that was so incredibly high and you know where it's going to happen. And by the way, they also should have had patrols out at every bus stop for that period of time, right, I mean definitely, how
long would it have taken. It's one point six miles. You would have needed just a quick map, right thing, and you could have done it. I mean, you know, it's not even I don't know. It's baffling to me, the whole thing. And of course, you know, Luis is one victim in this case, but there's so many others and it's really it's hard to wrap yourself around it. But it's why it's so important that we're doing the work that we're doing. And again, where could the disagreement be.
Why would we as a society, anyone from any sort of political persuasion or any ideology and philosophy, would want to make sure that this predator, this animal, who was doing these things over and over again, would be off the streets. So in order to do that, we know,
we have the information, We've had it for years. As Justin said, right, you know, we need to have what's called the double blind, which means that the person conducting, whether it's the mugshadow or the lineup or any sort of eye witness identification procedure, cannot must not know who the actual suspect is because even if they have the best intentions, they're going to say things that will influence the witness in this case, the victims or any witness
to to you know, to change their opinion, and that's not a good thing. That leads to more mistakes. And at the same time, we know too that mugshots and this is the simplest thing in the world, right and it's science, It's just fucking science. Instead of having six pictures on the page you have one, and the mind works better that way. And I know I would be the world's worst witness because I'm that guy who will
meet somebody and I'm embarrassed to say so. I'll meet somebody, we'll go to lunch, and then I'll run into them three days later and they're like, hey, Jason, what's happening. I'm like, hey, man, how you doing? You know what I mean? Like that, I'm like, oh God, I can't remember it. I mean, I can't remember names. I can't only remember jokes and phone numbers. But anyway, that's my problem.
So most people, most people are like you though, Jason. I mean, I think human beings just really don't have that kind of capacity. And as you said, you know, the police officers are not great poker players. You know, my brother is a professional poker player. And I go watch these guys play and they wear hats and sunglasses and they look down at the table and they do anything to not give a tell of what their hand is.
And these guys are professional poker players. But I imagine these police officers they're giving out all kinds of signals of who they really want to get, who the real guy is, and it's tragic the results.
Yeah, it's true.
Sometimes they unwinningly go ahead and give up tell tale science, I say, a good job or you know, to lead to kind of persuade the vectim at this time. But sometimes this is the scary part that sometimes they just do it for the sake of doing it because they want to close a case. I mean, it's interesting to me that at this moment, when you're talking about eyewitness identification, I was just recalling back one of the faces in my trolley and on February I think it was February sixteen,
nineteen ninety nine. Well, one of the young victims identified me in court. I mean this process. The DA at this time said that the victim took a long time to identify me because she was afraid, I mean a long time, five minutes turned it to identify someone, you know, and when she couldn't identify me because she scanned when the when the DA asked her, you know, if she'd seen me in the courtroom, can she please identify me as in what I was wearing? She asked the DA
A question. She goes, I mean picture this, you got you have the whole court room. Well it was standing a standing room.
You had the twelve jurors, you had.
The audience, and then you had me at the defense. Of all that time, I had fired my public defender because I mean, he was doing.
Such a lousy job.
I was so I was so confident that was not going to get identified, that I was not going to get sentenced that on one of the occasions, went into one of our of our hearings, he went ahead and asked for another extension. I got up, shot then everything. I got up and I said, you, honor, I object, I do not want another extension. I want this to be over.
Man.
The bailiff rushed from the back and just grabbed my shoulders and sat me down, you know. And then when I looked at my attorney and I told him I don't want another extension, the public vender and he looked at me. I mean, he straight out screened from the top of this lunch, you're.
Gonna get sentenced.
And I go, no, I'm not. I didn't do these crimes, right, And the judges slapped slapped the hammer on the on the on the desk and just like order the court right. So I go, okay, fine, but I told him I do not want another extension. Well, fast forward to one of the faces in my trial. This young lady had such a hard time identifying me that she scanned when she was sold to identify the look around the courtroom and identify me. She asked the DA a question from who?
From them?
And let's go.
She was pointing to She was pointing to.
The jury, to the twelve jurors.
She was asking the DA from who do I have to identify my attacker? From them? From the twelve jurors. No, that's when the DA said, no, from the whole court room. Look at the whole court room. So she scanned from left to right, very slowly, left to right, all the way from the jury to the defense table. And then as I was looking, I mean I didn't lower my
head for a minute, not even a second. I looked at her straight in the eyes and hoped to God that she would say, No, that's not him, That's not the bump in the nose that I remember, that's not the clearest, the unshaven face that I remember. That's not the tear drop that I remember seeing or not seeing. She looked straight at me. I looked straight at her
and that not even one fraction of a second. Later, she went ahead and scanned the room back all the way back to the jury room, to the jury where the jury was sitting, and stop hesitated, didn't say nothing. The DA once again went like, pronounced her name and said, can you please look the court room and identify the person that attacks you? Okay, this time she didn't ask can you please tell us if the person that I could he is here? This time she's saying, can you
identify the person that attacked you? In other words, you know what he's definitely here or you have to do is identifying it. So now the victim is over here once again, scanning the room from left to right. I mean, they took an eternity. And she did this three times, and I'm all this time, I'm looking at her, I'm hoping, I'm praying to God to be rid of those shackles. Well, when she did this the second time, by this time,
the DA asked the judge to grant her emotions. She goes, your honor, can I please move around the court room? Your honor goes like, what's the reason the DA, And I'm surprised by that time, I had a hired attorney. I'm surprised he did not object to that. But when the judge asked her what was the reason, she said, I just want to move around the court room, let her know, let my witness know that she's okay, that she's not in danger, that everything's fine, you know. So
the judge goes granted. So I had an attorney that I mean, he was like well maybe at that at that time, probably a good sixty four sixties years old. Maybe he was Anglo Saxon, real tall, hair, as white as snow, and he was pretty light complexed, so light that on the heated day he could probably turn red because of the heat.
Right.
Well, anyways, the young the DA goes behind him. I mean, picture this in the middle of a trial where someone's life is I mean, at the precipice of being sentenced to fifty five years to life. I mean, I'm talking about my earliest chance of parole was going to be on October of twenty forty five. Could you imagine that? I mean, I thought the whole world was eating me alive. Well, the DA goes behind my attorney and stands behind him, and she goes to the young.
Lady, does this look like the person that attacked it?
Come on all? Was she gonna say no? Then the DA she might as well grab her little points. She pulled it out, stretched it out and fregen up me and said.
Hey, this is the guy right here.
Look get them you know, I mean hispanic, possibly a gang affiliated, slick hair, black, you know, comet backwards, tattoos, look looking a real good. You don't need to think long.
This is the guy.
She might as well have said that, because after she stood behind my attorney, she stands right, and I knew what this was going to cough. I knew what's gonna happen next. As soon as I seen her approach my attorney, I said, okay, here it comes. Here comes the shotgun blast. Because it did feel like a shotgun blast. I felt that I was taken back by all the things that were going on. I mean, they sentenced me basically, I'm
nothing but the drama that was in the cours. I'm surprised the DA didn't grab tissue and took it to the victim and said, here, dry your eyes. You know, let the jury see this. You know that you're being so affected by this. I'm surprised. I did it happen because it was Hollywood. I mean, that was basically Hollywood right there. She still right behind me and said this, this looks like the person that attacked it. Come on,
what was the victim going to say? Young lady? Stressed out, scared, nervous, you know, influenced by other other factors. This lady had gone from during her identification process.
This lady had.
Gone from a second photo lineup that they had showed her. Well, she was not sure. Now in court she had gone from not being sure to being one hundred percent certain of her identification. This happened in court after the DA stood behind me and acted as appointer and put the target on me and said.
Is this the person that attacked you?
Take off the ifs, do not even make it a question, because you're basically saying, this is the person that attacked you. Well, at that moment, that young lady, just at that moment, she just went ahead and said, yes, that's him. Oh my goodness, I felt that my whole world had fallen apart once again.
And justin that, I mean, it sounds to me like there's no question that the judge acted improperly. Here too, right, he absolutely should have called at that point it's a mistrial, isn't it.
Yeah, I think at a certain point a judge has a responsibility to say this just doesn't pass the basic test. There's a basic rule of evidence that if evidence is more prejudicial than probative, it shouldn't be admitted in a courtroom. And if she has to look around the room three times and be prodded by the DA And as Louis said, this identification led to his entire life being taken away
from him. We just can't let people get convicted in this country and go to prison based largely on emotion and bad evidence.
No, that's I mean, that's bad behavior. Doesn't even begin to describe it. And you know, I want to I do want to make the point, and I make this often that you know, I'm a person who believes in a system of laws, and I think that we have a lot of very good police officers out there, a lot of very good prosecutors, judges, defense attorneys, but the
bad ones do just incredible amounts of damage. And this is an example of the system failing, Luis and US as a society, and the residents of la in so many different ways, and it's just it never it never ceases to blow my mind how this could go on in the country. You know, it's twenty well, this was twentieth century. Was the end of the twentieth century. I mean we're talking nineteen ninety nine in America, and this is not like and it became like a witch trial.
I mean, with her standing behind you, it's like, yeah, you're done. That's it. I mean, it's just like, just draw a circle around you. I mean it's like, anyway, I can't even well, and it's La. It's not the Deep South, right, it's Los Angeles.
So it happening today, and it's happening. I mean, that's the thing it's so frustrating in California is even with stories like even and in Luis's case, by the way, when we filed the habeas petition and pointed out all these inconsistencies and how the DNA from one of the cases he was charged with matched up the cases that happened when he was in prison, the District Attorney's office conceded this case and he was declared innocent. But it's again,
it's sort of like and now we move on. You know, it's we have to make the changes we have to. This is what I love why I love your show so much, because your show goes back and dissects these cases and says, we can't just move on. We need to look at these cases and make the changes. And what we got to learn from Elisa's case is Los Angeles County and every county in America has to stop doing these procedures because they are victimizing the people who
go to prison. They're victimizing the community and the people who have been victimized by these people, and they don't get the right person. And it's just shocking that it's still going on.
I'll even take it one step further. How would you feel if you were one of the jurors and then later on you find out that you were tricked right, that you were actually tricked into making a decision that ruined the lives of Louise and some of his family members, but also that led to a you know, an outcome that was tragically predictable, which is that this serial rapist
went on to commit these other horrible crimes. I mean, the jurors are in there trying to do we would hope their level best to make sure that the right outcome is reached. I think that almost anybody that goes into a jury room is you know, there'll be some people who may have some inherent biases. We try to read them out, but it doesn't always happen. But for people who are listening now, and I talk about this often, everyone who's listening is a potential juror, and someday you're
going to end up getting called for jury duty. First of all, go and second of all, when you go, be woke, think about Louise, think about what happened to him. Look for those signs in the courtroom, so that if this type of stuff is going on, you're able to think about, wait a minute, the line how is the lineup conductor? How is the thing or how are they behaving in the courtroom? Are they being suggestive? Are they is this a fair trial? Am I being presented with?
Remember it's beyond a reasonable doubt. That's one of the bedrocks of our whole system, right, it's supposed to be beyond How can anyone listen to this story? And of course hindsight's twenty twenty, but how could anyone listen? I think anyone listening now would say, well, if I was on that jury, I would have I never would have voted to convict. I mean, but twelve people did, and so you know that's and anyway, now IM gonna turn it back over to you, Louise, I'm sorry.
Well, going back to a jury identification, right, my son and my wife they got a jury summons, and one of the things that I told them was like, you know, they showed it to me. I told them, you know, do this, that's duty that you have to observe. So when you go, make sure that you listen to all the evidence real carefully, because remember I told them this, use my case as an example, and they know very
well what happened in my case. My case was such a high FOTI five case that my picture was coming out on every newspaper, even including Laupinill the Mexican newspaper. It was front cover, full size, front cover. When I went to the Mexican Councilate to try to get my paper, my Mexican ID to begin my process and my PIRTH certificate, they were requiring me a picture. I d now remember. All I had with me was my prison identification and the Turning had said, do not show that unless it's
absolutely necessary. So here I am in the Mexican Counselate in front of these people trying to give my Mexican paperwork so I could start my identification process. Well, when I go in there, I look at a stack of newspapers from Lapinille and then guess what all of them had my picture on it. They must have been probably
around maybe twenty four twenty five newspapers stacked up altogether. Well, when we went in there, my mother, you know, not being just thought I was a celebrity because she's I mean, this is something to hold, right, So she went ahead.
And grabbed about probably five or six.
Newspapers and put them in her bag. Well, when we walked in there, we're in front of I mean, they gave us such a hard time to try to get our paper that we finally went into this attorney's office, okay, And we're in front of her desk, sitting down and we're explained to her that I have no identifications that I need to begin to get my birth certificate and my Mexican matriculand.
Which is ID.
And the first thing she tells us is, well, you know what, you cannot get it because you have to show us a picture I d and once again, my mother got so frustrated, missus Jason. My mother got so frustrated, mister Brooks that what she did it was funny.
This was hilarious.
She went ahead and grabbed one of the newspapers with my picture right on the cover, right front cover, on my county blues, and she it was the picture of the day. I got accelerated, and she went ahead and stood up. I mean, it's like they gave her a Vita b shot, right, and she stood right up and she grabbed the paper and she she literally slammed it on the attorney's desk and said, is this enough of a ninety for you? In Spanish?
Right?
She goes, is this is enough of a ninety? I mean she was mad. I hadn't seen my mouth so mad, you know, forever, right, But she slammed it on the desk and she goes, is this enough for an identification for you? My son who was sentenced? And you know, the the attorney lit at me, shocked. She looked at me and she goes, is that you come on? She goes, is that you I go yes, that's me. And that's when I when I brought out my idea identification, I put it on the desk next to the newspaper and
told her that's me. And yes, they exponerated me of crimes that I have not commite. Back in nineteen ninety seven, I spent close to eighteen years of my life from prison, the convict being sentenced to fifty five years to life. Okay, no chance of seeing life anytime soon until this miracle happened. CIP came into the picture and I went ahead and had the opportunity to prove Yes, California and as a project came into the picture and had been had it not been for them, there were only two ways of
me coming out of prison. Either people I seen over twenty two people killed killed in prison behind the cront that I had, you know, and fortunately for me and thank god, you know, nothing happened to me. But anyway, going back to the story, the attorney looked at me and her response, her comeback really shocked me. It really shocked me because the first thing she said, she had such a secere look in her face. And this is what your audience needs to keep in mind, because she
said the Svargas, I am so sorry. And I looked at her and it baffled me. At the moment. I wasn't thinking at the moment. I wasn't like putting two and two together. But I looked at her and she goes, mister Vargus, I'm so sorry, and I go, why is that? And then she goes, I'm sorry because a jury. Listen to this, mister Jason, mister Brooks. When she apologized, she was apologizing for something that to me, apparently she had
nothing to do it. But then when she gave me the response that I needed to really hear, it costs. I mean, to me, this was closure in a way. It was kind of closer to me because I finally felt that someone sympathized, empathized, not sympathize, empathize with what I went through. And I'm still struggling to put the pieces together. But she said, I'm sorry because a jury of your peers. Imagine that someone that wasn't even sitting in.
The jury at that day.
But she said, I'm sorry that a jury of your peers committed this mistake, and because of that, you were sensus to fifty five years to life. I am so sorry. And at that moment I said to myself, within my I didn't say. All I said to her was thank you, But deep inside myself, I was like relishing and the fact that I was beginning to find closure because it was difficult for me.
It still is, it still is.
I'm having trouble with a lot of things out here, but you know what, I'm working a lot through it. I got wonderful people such as the California Innocence Project, Justin Brooks, through kel Cohen, Elisa Berjoko, I had Simpson, mister Jeremy, all these wonderful people, even you guys, even your station. Even this is helping me event it's helping
me let everything out. It's helping me go ahead, and you know what, forget about my past and renew my future because now that's actually what I have to do. I have to renew.
Well.
That means a lot for you to say that, because you know, I mean, it's something that's been an obsession of mine, is trying to be a small part of the recovery process, or the healing process, or the re entry process for brave men and women like you. So yeah, I think it's you know, your your a fantastic role model I think for other people who are going through
not just these challenges, but other challenges in life. I think for me, I can say that just having a chance to talk with you and to be around others who've been through similar horrendous ordeals put so much gratitude in my attitude and makes, you know, it gives me perspective. And so I you know, I thank you for you know, coming on, and I know it's not easy to share these experiences, but it's so important in so many different ways. And I wanted to ask you too. In the limited
time that we have left. We covered a lot of ground here already. But when you were sent to prison, as you said, there were twenty two people in there. Some were guilty, some were probably innocent like you, who were murdered because they were charged with the similar crimes like you were charged with. Yes, and you managed to survive. And I think Justin was telling me that there's a you actually found an amazing sort of way to protect yourself,
And can can you talk about that? You know what I mean?
Yes, I know exactly what you mean. I have to do this on almost every six months because in prison the the people that controlled the prison yards.
Okay, they asked for paperwork. Okay, this paperwork.
Has all your controlling crimes, what have you in prison, and all your backgrounds, and it said whether you're charged with a rape or not. So what I had to do was that I had to Fortunately for me, I let it work a job in the program office where I had access to the computer. So what I was able to do that one document that they would always ask for, that the person politicians would always ask for, would they would. What I managed to do was that
I had to type a new controlling crime. I had to type different dates, different names of lieutenant captains and commissioners that always appeared on the annual classifications. And I had to drop the font I had to lower the letter size exactly to the size that the original paper had. So what I had to do was that I had to carefully wide out the information that said that I was there for rape and the dates and all that. And what I did, I went ahead.
And typed out first degree burglary.
On the computer. I lowered the fonts, I went ahead and pasted them on top of the document that they had given me, and the new dates that coincide with all the annual classifications, the new names that coincide with all the people that were at that annual pleasications.
I had to go ahead and do that.
Almost every six months. Every three months, when they would ask for paperwork, they would take it to their cell and for two or three days at a time, they would analyze it. They would scrutinize it, and they would make sure that that paper was legitimate. So what I had to do I would have to fabricate new paperwork with my information on it, saying that I was there for as a struck out inmate under the three strike law, and my prime, my controlling Clint, was purty Reburglary.
So I had to wide out all.
The information and paste the new information on top. And after that I had to run copies, and after that I had to analyze it. I had to make sure that it was no smudges, no wrinkles, no nothing on it that would indicate that it had been tampered with.
Because if not, so, imagine that, Jason, that we've so given over control of our prisons that the shot callers, which are other inmates who are running the yard, actually request inmates to turn their pace work over to them so they can review it and decide whether these guys should be killed or not. And a lot of people don't realize there's a real hierarchy in prison. There is this hierarchy in prison, and if you're in as a child molester, you're going to get killed. If you're a
nerds a rapist, you're to get killed. And you've got to answer to what in prison is a higher authority not to get guards, not the courts, but the guys who are running those yards. And and yes, Louis had to worry every day were they going to figure it out?
Well, that's unbelievable. I mean the amount of the amount of forethought and the amount of technical ingenuity and uh and everything else that you had to you know, with and a person like yourself who didn't have training in
these areas right coming in. The idea that you were able to create this narrative and then prove it this false narrative to literally save your own life is something that I'm sure there's some people listening from Hollywood who are going to be like, oh, I'm gonna put that in a script now, because I don't think anybody's even seen that in a movie before. I mean, it's unbelievably brilliant.
And in fact, if not for that, we probably very likely wouldn't be talking to you today because you would have been not only then you would have been roughly and I'm sure there were others like like you said, of those twenty two, and we know now that you know, somewhere between five and ten percent of the people in
prison in America are innocent. So it stands to reason if twenty two guys were killed while you were in there for similar crimes, Let's say you know, probably two of them according to the statistics, probably two of them were innocent people who are in prison, and then we're victimized.
And it's interesting too. You know, yesterday I want to give a shout out because yesterday I had a lunch with a guy Namednick Turner who runs the Vera Institute for Justice, who are doing incredible work and trying to reform the prison system and bring better practices and humane treatment into the prisons. And they're doing this in a variety of ways. They're bringing correction officials and high ranking members of government to visit European prisons where they treat
people completely opposite the way we do. I mean, where there's respect and there's you know, and it actually leads to a better society because of the fact that when these people come out there were civism rates are so low because they've been treated like human beings when they were in and they've been given the tools and the dignity to come out and succeed on the outside, because their attitude in Europe, most places in Europe is hey, you know, when you come out, you might be living
next door to me somewhere, and I'd rather have you be somebody who I treat, you know, with dignity, and then you come out and you know, we could you know, have a meal or whatever it could be. And some of the things that VERA is doing, and I encourage anyone who's listening to go check out via Institute for Justice.
I don't remember the website off hand, but it's easy to look up and see some of the programs that they're even doing in prisons in America which are leading to dramatic decreases in violence inside the prisons, tremendous drops and recidivism rates, which is something we all should care about. And I think, you know, the good news is there's a movement underfoot. I think it's unstoppable at this point.
But at the same time, we're going to need as many people to get involved as possible, and I want to before we close, I want to encourage people to go to the California Innocence Project website as well. I'm sure there are opportunities to volunteer and get involved. Justin can talk more about that maybe in his closing remarks, but you know, and and then I want to say, this is, you know, as we get ready to wrap up this this episode, you know, my favorite part Justin
knows this, but for Luis's as new for you. My favorite part of the show is when I get to actually stop talking and just listen. And so what I like to do is turn the microphone over to you guys for final thoughts. And we're gonna save the best for last, and that's you, Luise. So Justin, what can you what are your what are your closing remarks? Is not it's not a trial, but it might as well be.
A closing argument. Well, I just think, you know, it's so important that people remember that this can happen to you. You can be at work one day and the police show up and arrest you for something that you know nothing about, and you can hope for the best, but you can see through bad identification procedures, through false confessions that are obtained through people just giving false information, you can be convicted of a crime in the United States of America and go to prison for the rest of
your life for something you didn't do. This is all of our criminal justice system. We all should take ownership of it. We're all responsible for it. So you need to get involved. So yeah, go and check out my website, California Innofansproject dot org. You could follow me on Twitter and hear my rants every day on Twitter. Justin o'brooks Houstinobrooks. And you know, it's coming up to be the end of Jerry Brown's life as governor in California. He's got
about one hundred and forty seven days left. So the day that he has one hundred days left, I'm going to walk to Sacramento for the second time and ask him to release a number of our innocent clients that we followed clemency petitions for. So I'd ask for the support and that retweet my tweets to the governor that I tweet every single day and get involved. It's our system. We're responsible for it.
So that's just Justin Obrooks on Twitter, George Justinobrooks and just to Geek. I mean, Justin's being too modest. He's going to be walking about seven hundred miles. He's done it before and he's doing it again. That's the type of commitment that I can just sit here and take my hat and my shoes off too and say, man,
that is just it's awesome. I'm hoping to join you for part of that journey and I'm planning on it, and I hope other people will too, and you can and people can learn more about that by following Justin on Twitter Justin Obrooks and going to California Innocenceproject dot org. Okay, Luis, I'm turning it over to you.
Well, Okay, I'm thankful first of all for having this opportunity. Secondly, I let to tell everybody out there. I mean, I'm pretty sure you have wonderful audience that want to get involved. I do not doubt that at all during the times that I was in prison, that all the years that I was in prison and I ran into a lot of people that used to come up to me and say, I'm innocent. I'm innocent of the crimes that they accused
me of, and then they would vent. I would ask them questions and they would vent, and they would tell me how their crients went and everything that they went through, and they would affirm I am innocent. I mean, I'm talking about people that were sentenced to twenty five years to life plus one hundred more years come on, what kind of sentences to those And they were telling me, I'm innocent, I'm innocent the crimes I have committed they
accused me of. Well, I never had the opportunity. I never had the opportunity to have a shoulder to be able to bent on because then they would ask questions, why are you here for? And I couldn't tell them. But there were many people that told me that that they were innocent. So projects such as the California Innocence Projects, and not only public involvement, but all the people that also hear these type of cases that are being spoken about. I mean I urged them to go in and get involved.
If you have people, if you have someone in prison that has been wrongly convicted and you feel that it's been wrongly convicted. As I have heard many stories of people out here nowadays, get involved. Write the people that you need to write to. I mean when I was in person, I were over twenty some letters hoping that someone would answer. And I thank god that mister Justin Brooks and the California Insans Project did answer that it
was very important to me. They went ahead and did that. Unfortunately, I was able to come out on my own to the feet, not on a stretcher. I was able to come out and be able to speak out here as far as the things that are going on. So people, wonderful audiences that are out, get involved. Get involved, because you are the one that makes a difference. As mister Jason said, you're going to be part of a jury. You know, it's going to be up to you to
be able. You're going to be able to hold someone's life in the balance in your hands, and it's going to be on you whether that individual gets rightfully, rightfully tried or not.
But you guys are the voice that we have.
You guys gave me a voice, okay, when I had no voice, when I was behind prison bars and I couldn't do anything about my situation.
It was the public.
It was you guys, the people that got involved that was able to help me out, and not because you guys. I'm out here right now, I'm talking to you through these wonderful means of the radio, and I can feel those positative vibies. I can sense that, you know what, there is someone out there that saying, you know what, I can and I should make a difference. So get involved,
get involved. Once again, I just want to thank you guys for for doing this and for allowing me to get involved in such programs such as these, because it's a wonderful thing to be able to contribute. They bring such self satisfaction to be able to say, you know what, I should get involved, So please get involved.
Louise, thank you again. It's really been inspiring listening to you. You're a remarkable man and I wish you all the blessings that life has to offer. And I'm looking forward to getting to know you more as we travel along this road and working together to spread the word and
justin what can I say? You're the you know you know, like I said, you're you're a hero of mine and so many of us in the movement, and I'm looking forward to working closely with you to yeah YouTube for sure, and I'm looking forward to working closely with you on as we as we turn this whole situation upside down, which is exactly what we're going to do. So thanks so.
Much, brother, I really appreciate all that you do for all of us out here.
Okay, well, this has been an amazing episode for me to be a part of, and I want to thank the audience for listening to Wrongful Conviction. Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the Nisnce Project and I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to innisonsproject dot org to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank our
production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flahm is a production of Lava for Good podcasts and association with signal Company Number one