I've never been in trouble in my life. I didn't even have a parking ticket, you know what I mean.
I was brought up with cops are the good guys.
I didn't know what was going to happen, but I do know that everything was stacked against me. Everything like everything.
This isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent. I know I'm innocent. I know I had nothing to do with this. How is this possible?
I grew up trusting the systems. I've grew up believing that every human being should do the right thing. And that's why, even though I knew I was dealing with corerough people, I wasn't going to break anyone to get me out of prison because I wouldn't live with the fact that I break my way out of my wife's death.
I'm not innocent, too proven guilty. I'm guilty until I prove my innocence. And that's absolutely what happened to me. Our system. Since I've been out ten years, it has come a little ways, but it's still broken.
I totally lost trusting humanity after what's happened to me.
This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction with Jason flamm That's me, and today we're going to do something we've never done before and I'm really excited about it. We have two guests today, DeMarco Carpenter and Malcolm Scott, who were co defendants and now are co exanarees, both wrongfully convicted of a murder and both exonerated twenty two
years later. They were ultimately exonerated in an incredible twist of fate when the actual killer, Michael Wilson, as he was about to be executed, came clean and admitted, which he had done previously, but he said it again that he was the killer and that these men were not involved. You have to hear this story to believe it. Guys, I always say this, I'm sorry you're here, but I'm happy you're here. So DeMarco Malcolm, welcome to the show.
Thank you for inviting us to the show.
Yes, yes, thank you. Jason. I really appreciate this opportunity to even be here in the big city of New York. It's a beautiful thing, and to be on your show talking about something that I think is very very important that the people need to hear.
And it's hot here in New York, just like Oklahoma. So you guys probably feeling that at home, even though it's got to be a little bit of culture shock too, but it really was. So this is a Tulsa case, and it's interesting because, well, DeMarco, your case has been featured on The Buried, a live podcast which is based on writings that you did in prison. And I've been listening to that podcast, which I recommend everyone, and I feel like I got a history lesson, you know, along
the way, which is really great. But you know, there's a real significance to Oklahoma that I think is important for people to know about. It is the incarceration capital of the United States. Now it's now past Louisiana as the place where there's more people locked up per capita than anywhere else in the United States. And of course the United States is the is the incarceration nation, right, So you're dealing with the worst state in the worst country in the world in that sense, and you guys
were caught up in that. So let's go back, because this takes us back to the nineties, right, actually early nineties. Right now, you guys grew up, did you know each other growing up?
Oh yeah, we actually did. We were friends before we even got incarceros.
And that's Malcolm talking. You'll get used to the voices on the air. But so you were friends growing up, and you grew up in a rough neighborhood by anybody's definitily, Yes, definitely and so and I know I heard you talking about it. Listen to the other podcast, the Birdy Live podcast about how you were pretty much surrounded by people
who were in gangs. And because as I know, when people read the description, they say these guys were suspected gang members and stuff like that, and I think for a lot of people they say, WHOA, well, this guy doesn't sell it, such a good guy. But in fact that's a very nuanced situation, right, because you really didn't
have it. I thought you described as very eloquently. You really don't have much of an option in that situation, right, I mean you were never formally a gang member, but you were friends with somebody.
Again, yes, all my friends. Everyone who I grew up with was my friends, and some of them was in gang.
So right, so then the authorities try to paint that picture and say this guy's gang affiliate or whatever it is, Right, realizing that you have literally no options, like you can't be an island in your own neighborhood, right, and there's consequences that come with that as well. And was it that the same situation for you, Malcolm, Oh.
Yeah, basically, I mean I grew up around gangs. I mean a lot of older you know, people in my family, friends that I had knew, actually went to school with. So you know, back then, it was much easier because you didn't look at these people as game members. You looked at them more these are just my friends. Before they even get involved in the gangs or anything. We were already friends and some of them were already my family. So I didn't all of a sudden say, okay, we're
you're a game member. Now you're no longer my family, you know what I mean. So when you hang out with these people, you're just looking at them as everyday family and friends, so you don't see it as how the rest of the world may have seen them. So when the situation occurs where you get seen with them or something like that, they automatically think, oh, well, you must be a game member also because you're with these people, But they don't realize, hey.
This is my family, and that's where you live.
You know what I mean. This is where I live. This is the people that grow around. We hang out sometimes. That doesn't mean that I go do things that they may do, you know what I mean.
And it's geography, I mean, it's a big part of it. And that's one thing I do want to talk about before we get into the crazy details of your case and the twenty two years that you guys spent in prison for something that should have been clear from the very beginning that you didn't do, and the very dramatic way in which it came to light as a guy who was about to be executed reiterated what he had said all along, which was that you guys weren't the
guys that he was. And he was executed, of course, for a separate crime that he committed, which he should have been in prison in the first place for this crime, and that person wouldn't have been killed, and that was a terrible, brutal, beating crime, beating murder of a clerk in an inconvenience store. But Tulsa has a particular significance because of the fact that going back well one hundred years now, right Tulsa was the sort of the epicenter
of black culture in the United States. It was called the Black.
Wall Street, yes, nineteen twenty one, and.
I don't think a lot of people are really as familiar with that history as they should be. But it was the place where you had a higher percentage of African Americans who were doctors, pharmacists, lawyers, professional scholars. It was the place to be, really and then that terrible day happened. They call it the race riots, but in fact, it wasn't a race rise. It was a massacre and a mass lynching. Yeah, and it's really one of the most shameful days in the history of America when you
think about it. Can you explain what happened in that situation because you're you obviously know the histors very well.
From what I understand, a white woman got in an elevator along with a black man, and yeah, it was a black man named Dick Rowland. And that's partially why the whole incident of the nineteen twenty one race massacre happened. You know, after they get in an elevator, no one really knows what happened because only those two were in there.
And when the elevator came, it opened, she came running out, crying and yelling and welling, and you know, no one really knows what happened while they was innovator in the elevator. But after that, you know, that's where it just it went crazy.
Well what happened. What happened was he was arrested based on her complaint to the authorities. Now, it is an elevator ride. There's a limit to how much can happen in an elevator ride. It wasn't even a skyscraper, right, we're talking about nineteen twenty one. But then he was arrested and a lynch mob formed, and the sheriff wouldn't allow the mob to take this guy out of jail,
this rolling guy, and kill him. And because of that, the anger grew and welled over into this riot that involved burning down over a thousand homes, killing over three hundred African American people, destroying basically every black owned business in town, and turned what was this sort of oasis
of culture and community into literally a wasteland. You had families that were missing fathers and mothers, You had you know, hundreds of dead bodies, and basically all the businesses destroyed, and so it's important to reflect on that as we fast forward to the time that you guys grew up in in the eighties and nineties, where Tulsa had become a very violent or that area of Tulsa that you lived in had become a violent ghetto, you know, And there's at least a case to be made that gangs
may have originated as a means of community members trying to protect themselves from this sort of a massacre. Let's not forget there were machine guns involved right back then. There were people spraying like government people with.
The flag issues.
Yes, yeah, so, I mean, it's really impossible to overstate the horror of what happened. But you know, and no one's trying to justify gang behavior and what it's becoming the modern day. But when you look at the history, it's sort of it does put a certain, you know, context in it that's important for everyone to be aware of.
So let's fast forward to September tenth, nineteen ninety four, which is a day that a nineteen year old woman named Karen Summers was fatally shot in the back and two young men, sixteen year old men boys were injured both of them shot Alonzo Johnson and Kenneth Price, and it seemed like originally they found the right guy, but they how did it get so screwed up? Where they had that? And this always makes me crazy and I
didn't even go through it. But they originally targeted Michael Wilson, who was the actual perpetrator, but somehow or other has shifted to you guys what happened.
And Marco Wilson he also got caught with the murder weapon and the car used in this drive by. And that's where it gets crazy when it shift shifts to us, you know.
So wait, so this crime, this really came with instructions, right, I mean, you're right out of the police academy. This one's like a gift here, right, I got the whole thing for you on a silver plotter. Yes, So why would they go off that they got the guy? Did they particularly want you guys? For some reason?
I believe that Michael Wilson was informant and once he got caught, you know, they didn't want to let him go away. They want to still use him. But once he caught that other case two months later, that's when you know they couldn't deny, Okay, we can't save him now.
They were willing to turn a blind eye to the murder of Karen Summers as well as the shooting of these two other young men who hopefully recovered, and they were willing to allow this guy who they knew was a killer, to stay on the streets just to protect their own Well, it's for their convenience, right that they wanted to continue to use him as an informant.
And on top of that, those was black kids. They didn't care that, you know, the crime was committed against black So it was.
Black and black and he was black, that the kids were black that was shot. You guys were black. So it's kind of like everybody's kind of disposable, including you two guys who are going to go to prison for the rest of your life. Yes, So was it Wilson that decided, Hey, I'm gonna save myself and just give up a couple of names of guys I know from the area, or how did that? Do you understand how that happened?
I think me myself, I believe that they had made some mistakes with Wilson, Like I think they had went into his house illegally, got the gun. You know, they had made a lot of formal mistakes. I believe that hadn't they not allowed him to cooperate with them, they would have all been basically destroyed the case because I think like if they had not been able to go in there, into his house and get that murder weapon, they wouldn't have been able to go into his car,
they wouldn't have any of that evidence. I think that they didn't been able to use but once they did it without any type of search and seizure, because there was never any search and seizure, warrant or anything to go in his house and get that murder weapon, you see. So I truly believe like the police had made a lot of mistakes within the case that they wanted to cover up and they would have lost the case had they not allowed Michael Wilson to cooperate and help them
bring someone else into the case, you know. And I think because we seen them that night, that was a perfect opportunity for them to use us.
And the bullet recovered from the body of the victim, well, there are three victims, but the woman who was murdered, Karen Sovers, that was traced or matched with the gun that was used in the shooting. Right, So again another bullseye, so to speak of evidence. And then they found around a way around that, right by saying that he has lend you the bullets.
Or I mean gave me three bullets. And I don't understand, like three bullets. Three victims and three bullets, but he had gave me the bullets. And you know, it still doesn't make sense.
Is that like a common thing for someone to just give somebody some bullets like here like under the Christmas tree, or.
I don't even understand that, Like here's three bullets, and that's what he said, three bullets. He gave me three.
Bullets, and you just had three lucky shots.
Three lucky shots.
There was only three you needed.
That's all I needed.
Were you like an expert marksman at seventeen years old? Had you been in the military?
Never? Never? Right, I know that that's just ludicrous.
The whole thing is. I mean, it would be funny if not for the of the consequences not only to you, but to the other victim, which is again and I talk about this all the time on the show, and roful conviction, the idea that Wilson was free after period of time and went off and committed this this gruesome murder where he beats literally beats somebody.
Literally beat somebody to death with a bat.
And and it was just a clerk in a convenience store. This was like, I mean, nobody deserves that favor. This is an innocent person who is he and his family and and his friends, everybody are victims in this, in this in this sort of uh, this conspiracy to frame you guys. I mean, there's not It's not only you and your families that are victimized society, right because that that guy working in the store, who knows what he was going to go do with his life, right and be.
Left behind the wife and two children.
Yeah, okay, that's really just to think about that. Yeah, well, I mean it's it's sort of I don't doesn't listen. There's a lot of things in the world I don't understand, especially these days, but that's one of them. I don't understand how people can sleep at night when they go around and I'm speaking specifically in this case about the
the police and the prosecutors. And I always say on this show, there's a lot of good police and a lot of good prosecutors out there, but the bad ones do a tremendous amount of damage, and the ripple effect of that damage can be felt throughout the community, and it puts everybody at risk when when this is allowed to this stuff is allowed to continue it and it does. It's it's horrible. So you guys, now you find yourselves arrested and charged with this murder? Did you have alibis?
Did you have I mean, I'm assuming you had public defenders in the case.
Right, Oh, yeah, definitely public defenders and I did have an alibi. We both had alabaia.
I'm actually pretty good alabasa. I mean people who are citizens, never being convicted of any crimes or anything. And my attorney never even called them up there to testify for us. He told us, who, Well, you probably won't even really need them, you know, they don't really have nothing on you.
Guys, won't really need the witnesses who could make sure that you don't go to person for the rest of your life. Not I would be like, why you don't. It sounds like a lot of extra time. Guy probably had places to.
Be, you know what I mean, And I don't understand it, But.
I mean, and you're you're living through this as I mean, still you're you know, you're you're closer to a I mean, you're you're halfway between a child and a man at that point, right, because we know that that the brain, adolescent brain doesn't fully fom until twenty five years old, so you're eight years away from that, and this whole thing is spinning around you. And you got this lawyer telling you, I mean, did you let me ask you this public defender? Yeah? Was he represented? We represent?
Yeah? We had two different ones, but they was both trash.
And you were. You were tried together. Yes, so you had two public defenders who were useless. I don't really understand how.
Who in which my public defender, Steven Sewell, after I got found guilty, he went over and worked for the district attorney.
Well, there does raise a couple of interesting Oh yeah, yeah, those questions, right.
I truly believe there was a lot of, you know.
A little shady dealing.
Things going on up under the table, behind the scenes. I mean, I mean that just as much as I was saying earlier about a lot of mistakes that the police had made and were covering up. I mean, once you made a mistake like that, and then this guy that you let out goes and you know, murders a guy in cold blood beats him to death. You have to continue to charade. You cannot admit, now, well we made a mistake on these other guys and let him out to do this, right, you can't admit that to the public.
Was the guy who was killed? Was the guy's name was killed in the store?
Richard Yost?
Richard Yost? Was he white or black?
He was white?
Right? Even worse for them then, right, because now they're responsible for the death of a white citizen. Right. Yeah, And it's back to the Tulsa thing, which is such a strange place when you look at it at the history. So oh yeah, So at that point you were really I mean, here, isn't that ironic too, because here you got this guy who two months and it sort of reminds me of the Central Park five ks in a
certain way. But two months after you guys are wrongly arrested, and they ignore the fact that they knew because they knew, they knew Wilson was the guy.
Oh, they definitely knew.
They definitely knew this. Like I said, this one was obvious as obvious as could be, and not just in hindsight, but right at the time. So you would think in an objective way that once this once you guys found out that he had gone on and killed this guy Yost, you would go, well, okay, that proves that this guy was the guy and we should be going home now.
But in fact it actually had the opposite effect, because it caused them to dig in deeper, dig their heels in deeper into this false narrative that they were promoting. And so it actually was even worse than the fact that this guy had gone and committed this other horrible crime.
And on top of that, ten months prior to that, this whole incident with Karen Sum and Michael Wilson, I was shot. I got shot ten months prior to that.
How that happens.
I was at the Old It was a club called the Wagon Wheel, and it was a lot of older people and an old man, some youngsters. Some young guys robbed this old man, and the old man came back and shot the club up. That's at least one of the stories I heard. I've heard many stories of who shot that club up that night.
So I just came in guns blazing into a dark club.
It was a drive by, and to this day, I don't know what happened or who who did it, But you know, I had a colostomy bag. You know, I wore a colostomy bag for three years, and you know I had a brace on this arm over here, and they took muscles out my leg to put in my stomach and a trachiostomy and all that. So fast forward into the time of the crime. When they arrest me, I'm in no physical condition to you know, do get around and do nothing barely, you know, I can. I
have a brace on my arm. I'm sixty three, one hundred and sixty three pounds, soaking wet, you know, and I'm healthy, you know, I'm barely walking. I had to learn how to walk. I was in the hospital for three months, and you can check the records, but I was in the hospital three months, you know. And two months after being released from the hospital, they took the pins out of my arm because I had pins on
my arm and I had a brace. When I was arrested, I had a brace on my arm and they told me I couldn't wear his brace in the county jail. So you know my arm is you know, they actually wanted to cut my arm off. My mama told him, no, don't cut my baby's arm off. So, you know, and that's on top of everything else.
I'm gonna cut your arm off, cut my arm off, yes, because it's inconvenient to have you in there with the brace hunt.
Yes. And it just so happened Malcolm this night that when I was shot, Malcolm was there and his cousin, Big Marlon Williams, and they saved my life.
You know.
They picked me up, put me in the back of Marlin's car, was headed to the hospital. Saw ambulamps flagged him down and you know, and that saved my life.
So you were shot in the stomach, in the arm, yes, and he's you guys. You can't see it on the on the radio obviously, but he just showed me the scars in there. That's no joke. I mean, it wasn't a grazing wound. It was like this is I mean, you were really shot.
I'm not sure. I've heard five. I heard seven, two different caliber gun so I'm not sure.
Oh my god, you don't even don't have that many times? Shot twice? Yeah, so this guy came like spreading both.
Yes, it was definitely it was a real drive by.
Whoever opened that door he was gonna shoot him. And because like when the door opened, because I think you were in front of me and I was behind him, and it was like a it was an older, older guy coming out too, and as we're all going out, as soon as the door opened, we heard the shots. It was immediate then, you know so and he was shot right there in the door because he was the
first one out the door. And I remember standing behind him because I had got shot in the leg or you got shot too, Yeah, yeah, I didn't get none of what he got. I just got basically it went in and out the leg. He got shot with basically most of everything. And then there was another older guy that was coming out with us he got shot also.
It was like three, like three or four. Eleven people got shot. Eleven people got shot.
Because he didn't. It wasn't so much as a drive by. He actually stopped the car like when that door came open. Because when he the Marco got shot, he fell into the door. He didn't realize that. He didn't know. I can probably tell you a story better because he was unconscious, like he fell right there in the door once he got hit, so the door his body kept the door open.
So once the dude continued to shoot whoever was out there, because it's a small little dance floor that's like right there in front of this little, you know, little juke joint, you know what I mean. And uh so everybody who was out there kind of basically on that dance was probably some of those eleven people that got shot because the dude was still shooting into the door. Once he fell into the door well with the door and held the door open with his body, the guy was still shooting.
Man, you had some some couple of months there, Jesus Christ, both of you guys, you go to trial and your attorney's are dumb and dumber basically, right, basically, Well, and that's being kind because we don't know that one of them wasn't at least one of them wasn't actually making a deal.
Because he worked in the attorney's office after I got convicted, right, I.
Think originally we had Steve Sewell together, we had the same attorney together originally, I guess, and then once he went on for other they separated it and they brought on Michael Harris, who was my attorney, and he took over my part of my our case. I think Steve Sewell did his part. And they were supposed to work together. We still want to try out together. You know, they were having issues where they weren't even really wanted to work together. Like I said, it was really you know,
kind of let's push these guys under the rug. Let's get them out of the way. You know, we don't we don't need this type of you know, bad publicity upon this, especially this serious death penalty case, which was Michael Wilson. You know, that kind of took over as a more serious case because you know, of course it was a death penalty situation, and you know it, here was this guy who was a clerk at a you know, convenience story to lose his life for wife and children,
small children left behind. So it was more of a story book for people to want to look at and for them to admit, hey, we let this guy out to do this. You know. I think that that that in itself was very, very I think important and key in the in their pursuit to make sure that they convicted us.
And you know, I can't let this go without talking about the fact that in America, the I don't have the exact statistics in front of me, but the odds of a of the death penalty being of a sentence being given of death when it's a black perpetrator and a white victim are exponentially higher than if it's the other way around, or even if it's black on black
or even white on white crime. And that's something that persists from you know, uh, from from back in the day, and it's it's uh, I mean, look, we should have a death penalty anyway, in my opinion, but but certainly it's not. It's not meeted out in a manner that is fair. If there could even be such a thing. You know, it has a it has a clear racial bias, and it's not it's not something that anybody of good
conscience should be okay with. And I always say that people when I talk to somebody who's in favor of the death penalty, my thing is, well, what percentage of innocent people are you okay with executing? Oh no, no, I'm executing people I don't know well. But but you now say to somebody who had this conversation with somebody recently, Well, you know, the system doesn't work. Oh yeah, yeah, but the system doesn't work that good. There's a lot of corruption. Okay,
So then I'll go back to the same question. What percentage of innocent people are you okay with? Is it ten percent? Is it one percent? Which people? How do you like? Because you can't you can't look at it any other way the system and somebody say, oh, we've got to fix the system, wouldn't Yeah, okay, it's what are you talking about. It's so broken and it never could be it could be fixed, you know. It's it's impossible to have a perfect system, even if everybody is
doing their job the way they're supposed to. Even if you had in your case, you hit the jackpot, right, the reverse jackpot, because you had you had cops and prosecuts who were willing to lie and cover up and uh and do whatever they had to do, and you had incompetent defense attorneys. If all those things didn't line up, I can't believe that you guys would have been convicted. Oh no, no, because I mean even if you had, and when were these the witnesses who were prepared to
testify as to your both your alibis. Were they in the court.
In the courtroom, they were right there, yeah, right there.
Yeah, so it would have been as difficult as uh, I would like to call the witness your honor. Okay, that would have been it, and the next thing, you know, they would have been on the stand going no, no, no, Malcolm was over at my spot or whatever the hell it was, right, But there was too much trouble for the defense attorney. I mean, were you when this was going on? Were you there like elbowing your guy going hey hey Carl.
Oh yeah, yeah, I mean I gave them, I gave him the full names of everyone.
No what I mean when you're in the courtroom, right you're you're you're experiencing this, this horror show unfolding in real time. You know the rest of your life is at stake. You're seventeen years old and you know the witnesses are sitting right behind you. Are you able to actually tell your attorney, hey, I want you to.
Call Yes, yes, I told Suid, hey, hey, call this person here, call Melissa Shields. She was there. She you know, he didn't call none of the people, my brothers, you know, all these people who was there at my house, you know, LORI omen all these different witnesses who were there in the courtroom, at least five or six people that they could have called. He didn't call any of.
Them, even though telling them, yeah, call him, and I'm.
Telling them, hey, right there, you know, he said this here. That's not true because I'm writing stuff down at you know, or whispering, is ir, that's not true. He said this here, you know, call this person, this person right here. They can you know, they can tell you the truth.
Basically, this is like, I mean, I think everybody's had that dream in their life at least one of drowning. Right. This is literally like you're watching yourself drown in real time. And so this, this whole procedure took.
How long travel was backlow today?
I want to say three?
Was it three? The last was they deliberate for nine hours?
They deliberated nine hours nine hours?
Was the jury? What was it make up of the jury?
It was all white, all white, one black? Was it the old lady? Yeah? I remember it was an old lady. I remember because they asked her some questions and they asked her and she said, yeah, I volunteer tier for the police. Department. I do some kind of volunteer work for the police, and they still allowed her to be up there. So, like my lawyer was like, this is the best we can get.
So the one black juror worked for the police department.
She was a volunteer, she said, she did volunteer work for the police. This was our one black juror.
You know.
And I'm like, aren't you going to be trying to get rid of her. She's saying, she's well, she's the only black up there. That's all we got. And I'm like, that's not helping us, Like I mean, that's gonna make it worse if anything.
Like wow, it's just really And she did some more volunteer work for the police department, like convicting you guys.
Yeah.
Right, So then this trial, you know it, it's amazing when you look at the elapsed time in the different areas. Right, So you're in jail for over a year waiting your trial, and then the trial takes two days, maybe three days. Nothing, It's gone in the blink of an eye. I mean civil trials take a lot longer than that. So two or three days you're in court. So the jury goes
out and they're deliberating. Did you think you had a chance in hell of been exonerate or were you basically at this point like this, we're done me personally.
You know, I believe that I was innocent, So I was like, ain't no way that they can convict us even though all this evidence is against us. We were innocent. We were innocent.
What about you, Malcolm? Did you believe in the system even before this? And when they went out? I mean, were you guys able to talk to each other?
And yeah, we were, well, we were sitting waiting for the jury's deliberation. I think we were up there together.
Yeah, I mean I felt like, and why they just not to cut you off? But why they We was waiting on them today deliberate. And they came back and told us that, you know, we can cop settle out for some time. They offered us a deal. Why are we waiting on the jury to deliberate.
What was the deal?
I remember they came back with eight years for me and you too.
No, they never came to me.
Why they deliberated. They came. They wanted me to test. They wanted me to say, Malcolm did it?
Oh? Yeah?
Why they deliberating?
They kept trying to get him to to take me down.
You know.
I think it was because the evidence was looking funny, so they were really pushing for him to you know, kept giving him offers of smaller centiences, but he wouldn't take it right.
And isn't that interesting too, because if they actually thought that you were a murderer, there's no way to go on for you eight years. So they arrested you for a crime and didn't commit, then didn't want to cut your arm off, and now they're trying to get you to cut your friend off right in a symbolic way and still go to prison for right here. It's like, oh, and by the way, we have something behind door number three.
So you didn't take the deal obviously, and the jury comes back in, and what was that moment like if you can explain for each of you guys, I mean, obviously the worst moment of your life and they come back in. I'm assuming they didn't look at you, and you probably had a sense when they came in, But can you paint a picture of the courtroom? Was it hot, was it cold? Was it noisy? Was it people there? What was the whole scenario? Put try to put the audience in your shoes as best as you can.
For me, that was the longest few minutes ever, you know, waiting for them to give the verdict. And when they came back with a guilty verdict, you know, it's like everything stopped. I'm moving in slow motion and it just I'm watching people. I'm looking around my family that crying, and you know, it's it's warm in there. It got warmer, and you know, something dropped. I don't know if it was,
you know, my heart, but I it was. It was a terrible moment for me, But I didn't cry, you know, I I I felt like I had to stay strong for my family that was looking. But you know it was it was heartbreaking.
I mean for me, Like i'm'a be honest, like just talking about it right now, my heart is beating fast, just bringing back that memory, you know, of a day in my life that I I'll never ever forget. I mean, I don't know. I felt like every like bowl movements and everything were better to just give away. It was almost like when that last breath of life goes out of a person and they lose all, you know, I mean, control of their bodies or something and it's like I
felt that way. It was like my life had just ended. And I was looking at me and seeing it, and I was saying, like, why is this happening? This isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent. I know I'm innocent. I know I had nothing to do with this. How is this possible? How is this possible? Is what I kept saying to myself and thinking as my heart was beating so fast, and I'll never ever forget that moment.
And then it gets it. Just when you think it can't get worse, it gets worse because you guys were sentenced to life in prison plus one hundred and seventy years, which is you know, I don't know. I mean, I don't understand our system. What do you need? Life plus? Does that mean in case you come back to life back at another one hundred and seventy years? What is one hundred and seventy years? How long were you guys
expected to live? I mean? And so so now off you go to prison, maximum security prison obviously right for this crime in Oklahoma?
Yes?
And is that is? That? Was that as bad as it sounds?
Oh, it was worse. It was worse. When I put up at the prison, someone was being executed. It was real quiet. And when I saw the prison, it looked like death.
Look like death.
So you know, I'm looking at this place, McAllister. You know, I'm like, whoa, you know, this is where I'm first to have to be. You know. It was a terrible feeling.
Yeah, I think it was because of the fact that we had to automatically go to a maximum security prison. So we had to go to basically the worst prison in Oklahoma at the time. You know, at eighteen years old, we had finally turned eighteen, and so we were basically still kids, and we were stepping into the worst prison system, you know, Price prison in that uh state. And so you know, of course it was definitely fear and you know, confusion and concern and worry of you know, what may happen.
But you know, and it's like now you're going to this this mind of Okay, I gotta I gotta survive, I gotta I gotta make it through this, you know, and and there's no one else that's gonna protect me. There's no mama, there's no daddy, there's no no one no this you so now you have to at eighteen be you know, the the man you know of yourself, like you have to be the pure protector of you.
There is no one else there for you but yourself, and you have to step into that and realize, I may have to face this for the rest of my life.
And you know the painted picture the Marco is a big man six'. Three but you were in a week in state obviously because of your. Injuries haven't been shot however many. Times And, malcolm your guy who's in, Shape but you're not a particularly physically imposing, guy not like a, large large. Guy and even if you, were it doesn't even matter from WHAT i, understand, RIGHT i, mean you're gonna Be you're gonna be faced with terrible situations and there.
Regardless, yeah the size is in so much. WORK i, mean keep in, mind THOUGH i was eighteen, Then i'm forty one years old Now i've grown and a lot of WHAT i put on right, now the MUSCLE i put on has come from years and years of you,
know exercising and and. Building but at that, TIME i was a kid coming straight from the, streets basically sitting in a count of jail land on a. Bump so there was no none of the physical physique or anything like, That so you have to basically go, on you, know just coming in with your heart and even in there like a guy with, shage that only even means they're gonna bring three or four of them instead of just
one when they come for. You and you, know size and things like that don't really come into play when you got these guys with shives and knives and stuff coming at. You, SO i, mean in the, system you, know size of your, PHYSIQUE i don't think it's more important than really your heart and using your mind and being able to overcome the fear of you, know anyone out, there and being ready to protect yourself in whatever situation may.
Occur, well first of, all it's incredible you guys survived this ordeal twenty two years in places like, That but it also is a very unusual AND i think important story for people to hear of how the legal process unfolded that resulted in you being here right when when if it was up to the, authorities you would have died in prison sooner or. Later and it involves a number of things that are, remarkable, right including the witnesses recanting right and you, know we know that that's not
as uncommon as people. Think but you, know and of course it's worth talking about the fact that in over half of all the, wrongful all the, exonerations that thousands of exonerations that have happened in this, country now over half of them AT, bop police and prosecutorial. Misconducts so we probably shouldn't be shocked by. That we have scandals
going on right In New York state right. Now so because you had your you had your convictions upheld on appeal two years after you went to, prison and by Now wilson had been sentenced for the other, beating, right he had sentenced to. Death was he in the same prisoners you, Guys.
Well he, was but you know it's, underground. Mcallus they have a death. Row it's, underground.
Underground, yes, yeah he.
Was. Separate separate has their own.
Unit they keep.
Up it's like literally a, dungeon, yes. Literally so you get your conviction, upheld did you guys think you had a chance of beating the wrap the second time? Around, well for.
ME i know at the, time you, know WHEN i went in, THERE i wasn't aware of the appeals, process and it was to the next, day you, know when some of the older guys in the county jail told me. That so While i'm in the county, JAIL i, mean While i'm in in, McAllister you, Know i'm going to the law. Library i'm writing lawyers and letters to whoever and WHOEVER i could think, of WHOEVER i think that could help. Me i'm writing. Letters so you know when they when they came back and they said that the
since was, upheld you, know it was. Discouraging but at the same, time you, KNOW i don't want to die in, prison SO i had to continue, with you, know striving for. Freedom so that's me writing, letters me going to the law, library you, know me working. Out you, know you want to keep your you, know your, body you know is your, temple so you want to stay as healthy as. Possible
so you, know it was a lot of things that. Contributed, faith you, know it was my faith BECAUSE i felt, that you, know a higher being didn't allow me to live through getting shot all those, times just to come to, prison you, know with a life in one hundred and seventy years to die in. There so it was it was faith.
AND i want to get To williams In price that two guys who falsely testified against, you and how they recanted another thirteen years later in twenty. Ten but before we do, that, malcome how did You i'm always in awe of the you, know the strength of the human spirit that's personified by every single person that sat in those shares that you guys are sitting in. Now but how did you manage to maintain hope in? It in
a truly hopeless? SITUATION i, mean there really was no real a rational, person it seems like would just be like fuck, IT i can't you know WHAT i. Mean, like you know a lot of people do give up in, there, Right.
Yeah they. DO i, mean AND i think that was one of you, know it's good that you said, that BECAUSE i think that's one of the things that you, know kind of gave, me you, know that that willpower is, well that was one of the THINGS i think contributed
seeing the results of the guys who gave. Up you, Know i've Seen i've watched a, man old, man after being in prison for you, know thirty forty, years giving up and he finally died in, there and just watching, him you, know wheel him out on A, gurney AND i think just seeing a lot of things like that was, LIKE i can't go out like. THAT i refuse to allow us to. Happen and another THING i think that
was very important for me was my. Family LIKE i have A i got twelve brothers and, sisters ad and you, know growing up with my, family you, know we didn't have a, lot but we had each. Other AND i think that's what made us closer because we didn't have a, lot so we had to make our own fun and, games you know WHAT i. Mean so it made us. Closer AND i think even me going, inside you, KNOW i had to look back out there at my family
and the support that they had given to. Me you, know they never you, know like my, mother you, know, uh like she was my biggest, Champion like she's my biggest. Fan like she never once awaved eye and SAID i don't believe you or you are you sure you didn't have? Something you, know it was no question. There it was like WHEN i told, her WHEN i sit down and told her in the county, JAIL i, Said, MOM i didn't do, It LIKE i didn't have anything to do with.
It and it's like she would always, knew Like mom knew you're. Lying i'm gonna get your, butt you know WHAT i. Mean SO i was just, Like i'm just gonna tell her the. Truth but she never once, said you, know are you sure OR i think you. Might you, know it was, Okay, Son i'm gonna be here for. You and it was Never she never changed from, that you, know even times THAT i would be, Like, MAMA i don't know IF i can do this, Anymore, she's, well
you gotta keep. Fighting you gotta keep, fighting you gotta keep, believing she said to. Me she, Said god helps those who help, themselves and if you want some change for, yourself you got to start doing the things that you need to do to help. Yourself reach out to the right, people connect to the many people as you possibly. Can don't never be afraid to humble yourself and ask for, help you. Know and she stood behind me that whole, time and her encouragement helped me to write people like
The Innocence project and all these different. PEOPLE i got turned down a, lot you, know but we never we never gave. Up we never gave, up you. Know AND i think my faith and my family are like two of the strongest pillars for me to help me get through that.
Situation so fast forwarding to twenty and, fourteen you guys file the petition seeking a new trial with the recantations of the state's key. Witnesses those names Were williams And. Price they had originally testified that they saw you guys in the, car which the authorities knew wasn't your, car
it belonged to the, Killer. Wilson so they had recanted in twenty ten and said that and this will surprise no one who's a listener of the, show that they had the police had threatened to convict them on other charges unless they falsely identified you guys in the first, Place so they had finally. Recanted so twenty fourteen is
a crazy. Year you, know you Have Michael wilson finally, executed, Right and as much As i'm opposed to the death, fella it doesn't sound like society's going to miss him very. Much BUT i am opposed to the death, penalty AND i make that very. CLEAR i don't think that killing justifies, killing AND i don't think the state should be in
the business of. Killing so but he's, executed and this is where it's almost like A hollywood, script, right because he has now confessed to the crime in, detail has said over and over again that you guys didn't do, it, right, yes and the other witnesses have. Recanted he gets executed and goes to his death and his last words are you, know he's repeated what he's been saying all, along you guys didn't do. It now he has very little motivation
at this, point, like what's the. Difference he's going, out but you're still sitting in. Prison, yes must be confusing as hell when you're sitting there and a whole case against you has completely, unraveled and now you actually had proper representation on top of.
That.
Right so Besides Eric, culin who was an investigator who is representing you guys.
Now Oklahoma Innocence project who got involved in twenty eleven When alcoholma got an innocence, project our case was the first case that they.
Took, wow.
Amazing at the, TIME i had a lawyer, hired AND i didn't know, how you, know a lot of legal things. WORK i don't know if it's gonna be a conflict of interest or. Anything SO i contacted my attorney first and was telling him about the, letter and he was immediately on, board, like, yes you need to get with these. People these people have a lot of, influence they, have
you know a lot of. Connections you should you, know you, know allow them to come on board as, well because they can reach places THAT i. Can't he was a local, attorney you, know you, KNOW i didn't pay a lot of money for him, whatever but he was trying to help me as much as he. Could and he was, Like i'll even go and you, know speak to him on your, behalf show him a lot of the evidence THAT i. Had he had the you, know the, witness the testimonies from the recantations Of Rashaun williams and And
Ken price or. Whatever and so he went and you, know talked to The Innocence project on my behalf and presented a lot of the evidence that, he you, know he had been gathering. Hisself and you, know they came back and was, Like, hey we're gonna help you. Guys we're gonna you, know jump on board and try to see what we ca can do to help you guys as. Well and from that point there they kind of just you, know kind of took.
Control what an amazing turn of events that is.
Yeah and When Michael, wilson he Said Malcolm scott And DeMarco carpenter.
Innocent and he said it on video on.
Video then he said it when he was, executed and then it took two years after.
That which is really. Crazy and he explained the whole. Thing he said the shooting was in retaliation for an earlier incident when he had been. Shot he explained who else was in the car with. Him it was the Guy alberson And. Harjoe and finally we get To may twenty and, Sixteen so this has now been almost twenty two. Years you guys have been in prison because nineteen ninety forty twenty, sixteen the math is not, tricky and you end up back in. Court this is the flip, side,
Right this is THE i mean the. PROVERBIAL i call it a happy ending because we know how many challenges there still are in front of you. Guys what was that? Like so you come back to, court it's It's May may of two thousand and, Sixteen may. NINTH i think it was Whatever and did you did you know you were going to be released or was there still an element of suspense in this? Situation now when we didn't know.
IT i believed, it but we didn't know, it you.
Know, yeah the suspense was definitely still. There, yeah still, THERE i, mean BECAUSE i, mean we we're looking at you, know if they could do it this, time you, know we're always going to be in till the. JUDGE i had already, SAID i, mean until the judge actually, says you, know you're innocent and free to. GO i was gonna be, like, please, please, please please please let this go right this. Time, so,
yeah the suspense was definitely still there for. ME i was still have my concerns because you got to, REMEMBER i, mean if it was so preposterous that this could even happen to us after, them after all this evidence and stuff that they had on this other, person and they still took us. Down so in my, mind it's, like there's nothing THAT i could put past these, People LIKE i can't say for sure that that this is going to, happen you know WHAT i.
Mean, so so explain that moment, Now because we talked about the moment of absolute shock and horror and the worst moment in your. Life i'm assuming this was the best moment of your life or both of your. LIVES i see you both. Nodding, YEAH i couldn't imagine anything could be. Better so and you were there together in. Court, yes so just like back twenty two years, ago except the. Opposite so what was that? Moment like family's back in
the court. Room it's almost like a mirror image of the other one different judge though this.
One, HERE i got to, SAY i THINK i was sharing this with somebody. ELSE i don't know if you guys remember whether the show where the old code case where the old cases always come back and they'll kind of run through it where they'll show the guy when he was young and then showing when he's. Old it kind of felt like that for me in that scene because you could see like when my lawyer got up, there he had looked a lot. Older When Kim price got up, there he looks a lot, older like everybody.
Looks you can tell these are the same, people but they're a lot. Older i've aged and you've, aged And i'm looking around the, scene you know WHAT i. Mean and so when it finally gets to that point where the, judge you, know because she read off a lot of different things where she was, like, NO i Ain't i'm not giving you. This i'm not giving you. That AND i was, like wait a, minute this isn't sounding.
Good this is.
Good its sounding good at. All she's denying a lot of our, Stuff like, okay hold, up you know WHAT i. Mean but then when she finally got to the to the biggest one of the new evidence and things like, that and she she kind of stopped there and went on a longer speech about that last. One and so as she started to speak about that, ONE i kind of felt, Like, okay we might we still got this.
Chance and when so when she finally, said you, know at this, MOMENT i want to find these these, men you know he's actually, innocent and LIKE i just looked at my mom.
And it was just like, man.
And she looked at, me.
And it was like we both it was like a tear dropped at the same time for us. Both it was like finally she was, like, yes you're coming. Home and it was like she had never once SAID i don't think you're going to make it out of, there no matter how SAD i would, get no matter how, upset she would be, like you're coming. Home you're coming.
Home and at that moment when she said finally you're, coming AND i just like it was like the biggest RELEASE i think for, me like it was a big, release LIKE i could finally breathe again and SAY i have life, AGAIN i have life back in. Me it was an amazing, moment you know That i'll never ever forget in my.
Life and THEN i was glowing. INSIDE i was, glowing you. KNOW i don't know what nobody else, seen BUT i felt. It said. Wow and then WHEN i finally got outside AND i was able to look up at the sun and just the, sky it was. Beautiful, yeah what did you?
Do? What what was the first thing when you got? Out we gonna get something to? Eat did you go along a tree like the.
Lawyers we went with the lawyers and we went to some restaurant with all our. Family AND i didn't even, eat you, KNOW i was TOO i didn't even eat.
THAT i.
THINK i took me a lap around the parking. LOT i took a lap around the parking. LOT i was just LIKE i can do, this you know WHAT i, Mean Like i'm, free, Man LIKE i can do this, Now LIKE i can just lap around PARK i can do.
With, limitations no. Boundaries you can just, walk you, know that was.
Gone, yeah AND i want to you, know as we come towards the conclusion. Here you, Know i've been in this doing this work for twenty five years. Now one of the two questions that people ask me the, most there's two questions people always ask. Me one is what happens to the Prosecutors and the answer is, nothing, right, unfortunately. Nothing there's no prosecutoral accountability and whatsoever in this. Country it's in saints one of the only professions where you
basically have total immunity for no matter what you. Do and there's some crazy cases going on right now where whatever so In, massachusetts In New, york not just in The. South but the other one that everybody always asks me is about. Compensation people want to. Know they hear these stories and they freak out and they're, like tell me the guy got money or the woman got, Money tell me they got. Money and we know a lot of cases people don't get. Anything there's a really terrible number of.
Cases there's still eighteen states that have no compensation statutes. Whatsoever that's. Terrible but In, oklahoma you guys didn't exactly get rich off of this. EITHER i, mean AND i know you've talked about that, before.
But can You oklahoma has a cap on it where they give xuneries one hundred and seventy FIVE, k which neither one of us. Received. That we did receive, something but due to you, know we get out you, know loans and you, know with, cars and so once we did get the, money you, KNOW i got one hundred and seven, thousand and it should have been a one hundred and seventy, five BUT i had to pay the loans,
back you. Know but THEN i get one hundred and seventy and HERE i am with one hundred and seven thousand. Dollars you, KNOW i have no management, skills you, know, Nothing so you, KNOW i paid off some, cars bought new. Furniture but, basically you, know it's eight months later AND i don't have a, dime you, know BECAUSE i pretty much you, know squandered, it you, know and it was a learning. EXPERIENCE i didn't let it get me down or, nothing you, KNOW i just KNOW i got to work
harder and make better decisions in the. Future so you can't be.
Killed and you, also there's nothing that can get you. DOWN i, mean amazing.
Character, no life is really beautiful out. Here it really. Is so you, know it was a learning experience for. Me that's HOW i take.
It what about?
YOU i, MEAN i, agree it was definitely a learning experience for. Me, yeah, SO i MEAN i learned from from that situation as. WELL i MEAN i still, have you, know a significant amount of money That i'm trying to invest in things like. That i've stayed with. Employment i've been working, consistently you, know Since i've been, free and trying to maintain that WHILE i go through my process of earning my certification for personal, Training like that's my true, goal you, know in my.
Career and if people people are, listening some people that are listening are in The tulsa. Area you're still In, tulsa.
Right i'm In, Houston texas, Now oh You're.
Houston. Okay so if people are In, houston they're, going, Hey i'm looking for a. Trainer how do they contact?
You they can contact me On, Facebook, Instagram i'm On snapchat on what's what's your hand? On oh it's Mister swagger seven six, four mister M I S T E r M r s W a g G A h seven sixty.
Four, okay that's M r S W a G G A h seven sixty. Four Contact malcolm and get in. Shape yes he's in, shape trust.
Me or they can give me On. Facebook it's just my regular, Name Malcolm. Scott, Okay so you know they don't have to go through all the numbers and things if they don't want.
To and And, DeMarco you're up to some really interesting stuff. Now so you've got a.
BOOK i have a book WHICH i. Brought you, KNOW i want you to see, it you, know in, person the manuscript that's typed. Up and you KNOW i Have i'm a call host Of Actual, innocence a podcast With Brooke, gettings AND i have a podcast documentary Called Buried.
Alive And i've been listening To Buried alive And Actual innocence AND i recommend both of them highly to anyone who's a fan of this of this, genre anyone who's interested in learning about these situations in these. Cases those
are two of the best podcasts that are out. There So Buried alive is one of, them an actual instance is the, other both With Brook, gettings who does an incredible, job considers she's own and so so the book is you have a name for the book buried, alive buried a. Lot is there a way do you want people to contact? You do you do public? Speaking you have an interest from maybe is there somebody's out there a book agent or might be somebody that could help you with that.
Pursuit so how do people reach out to?
You and the goal of mine IS i really want to team up With malcolm and travel around BECAUSE i am a motivational. SPEAKER i go to schools And i'm On Instagram Buried life twenty, Two i'm On Facebook Tomarco, carpenter And i'm ALSO i have a. Goal i've always
had this. Goal you. KNOW i was always a hoop star going back to high, school middle, school BUT i always wanted to play in a celebrity THE Nba All Star, game you, know because it's obvious THAT i can't go to THE nba, now but The Celebrity Off Star, GAME i plan on playing. IT i actually got a video on. YouTube it's called twenty Two DeMarco and my name is spelled D e M a r c h O e twenty Two DeMarco and you can go watch this. Video AND i also want to do some, acting so if
anybody can help me get into the acting. Business you, Know i'm definitely up for some.
Acting, okay so we Got Buried alive twenty two is The. INSTAGRAM i know that BECAUSE i follow you And i'm a you have to today. Too Let's Buried alive twenty, two number twenty. Two and Then DeMarco carpenter On, facebook which IS D. E M A. R. C hoe and Then. Carpenter we all know how to Spell, carpenter so everybody
listens to show us how to Spell. Carpenter so so as we wrap, up we have a tradition on wrongful, conviction which is That, well first of, ALL i want to remind everybody someday you may find yourself on a. Jury remember what you're hearing. Today remember that what you're being told may not be the, truth and that the people who are who you trust to tell you the truth may not be acting in the in your best interest or society's best. Interests and you have to be. Woke so stay woke and pay.
ATTENTION i have another question or just really a, statement and this is this is real. Bizarre malcolm has a brother that's in prison that's been there twenty seven years for a. Murder he didn't Commit he's in the county right now fighting for you, know hopefully he'll be released In. September but you, know what is the odds of having two brothers in prison for something they didn't? Do coreyachis
and all evidence is pointing at other. People but you, Know coloring is Also Eric cullen is also working on that case as.
Well i'll thought To eric about it and we'll see what we can. Do so now comes the, time which IS i think probably everybody's favorite part of the, show WHEN i stopped talking AND i just turned the microphone over to each of you, guys just for any final thoughts that you want to, share anything at all that's on your mind that you want to share with the, audience because we have a big audience out, there AND i know they're going to want to hear what you have to. Say who wants to go?
First, yeah, sure, SURE i like to go. FIRST i just want, to like my message is to the. Youth you, KNOW i would like to you, KNOW i like to see THAT i want the kids to see THAT i come from this here AND i stay. Strong you, KNOW i kept the faith AND i just want y'all to know IF i can do, it then y'all don't have to go through everything THAT i went, through the accomplished. Goals you, know y'all can do. It you, know just stay stay strong and believe that's.
It.
Welcome first of, ALL i just want to say thank You jason for allowing you to come in and talk and tell our, story AND i really appreciate what you. Do AND i also want to say just THAT i hope that us sharing what we're sharing with you today inspires gives encouragement and inspiration to many people out, there not simply those who are incarcerated for crimes they didn't commit, it but those who may be going through, anything any hardships in life that they feel like there's no WAY
i can get through, this because you. Can the human spirit is very. Resilient it's very very, strong a lot stronger than we. REALIZE i never thought THAT i was my way back through a life plus one hundred and seventy, years but with the help of really good people like The Innocence, Project Eric, cullen you, know and guys like. THAT a lot of these were students who gave of
themselves without. PAYMENT i appreciate, that AND i won't you all out there to know you, know anytime you may get on a jury or anything like, that know that pay close attention to what's going. On don't just be so quick to be ready to convict someone or. Whatever and that goes for everyday people in. Society pay, attention be, awoke as he, said be aware of what's going, on and know that a lot of these things can happen to.
People innocent people do sometimes get the bad end of the, stick AND i need society to really see that and know that it may be if more of us are aware of it will start to do more about. It and that is my, mission is that we start to do things about it to make a change for the better and give and a lot of these guys that come, out help give them a better chance for reintegration back into.
Society help them because if you want them to, change if you want them to do, better you have to give them an opportunity to see better things and a better way of. Life and that's.
Mean well Said, malcolm and thanks Thanks Jason.
Havings, Well i'm just going to say that this has been an extraordinary experience for me listening to you guys and learning AND i appreciate you being. HERE i appreciate everybody, listening and this has been a sort of a historic episode Of Wrongful. Conviction so thanks for coming, In malcolm And DeMarco and sharing your. Story bron all, right don't forget to give us a fantastic. Review wherever you get your,
podcasts it really. Helps And i'm a proud donor to The Innocence project AND i really hope you'll join me in supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful. Convictions go To innocenceproject dot org to learn how to donate and get. Involved i'd like to thank our production, Team Connor hall And Kevin. Wartis the music in the show is by three TIME oscar nominated Composer Jay. Ralph be sure to follow us On instagram At Wrongful
conviction and On facebook At Wrongful Conviction. Podcast Wrongful conviction With Jason flahm is a production Of lava For Good podcasts and association With Signal Company number one h